►
From YouTube: Learner Speaker Series - Managing Burnout with Time Off
Description
On the 2020-12-10 the GitLab L&D Team hosted John Fitch, Co-author of the book Time Off to discuss strategies on managing burnout.
B
Okay,
great
well,
it's
12
30,
so
we
can
just
get
started
and
as
people
join,
they
can
just
jump
in
so
welcome.
Everyone
to
this
live
speaker
series.
We,
the
lnd
team,
is
hosting
this
call
today
and
we're
chatting
with
john
fitch
who's.
The
author
of
the
book
called
time
off
a
few
things
that
I
just
wanted
to
touch
on
before
we
get
started.
B
If
you
need
the
link
to
the
agenda,
let
me
just
add
it
in
the
chat
one
more
time
work.
The
format
of
today's
call
is
going
to
be
a
bit
of
like
a
fireside
chat
at
the
beginning,
I'll
ask
john
a
couple
of
questions
and
then
we'll
jump
into
a
q
a
so
if
you
have
any
questions
for
john
make
sure
to
add
them
with
your
name
to
the
doc.
B
Also,
there
is
a
link
to
the
agenda.
If
you're
interested
in
reading
john's
book
there's
a
link
to
the
book
and
also
a
link
to
the
handbook
page
with
steps
on
how
you
can
expense
it
as
a
work
related
book.
If
this
chat
makes
you
interested
in
hearing
more
about
what
john
has
to
say-
and
then
one
more
thing
I
wanted
to
point
out
too,
is
that
this
speaker
series
is
part
of
a
larger
initiative
that
l
d
team
is
working
on
this
week
called
mental
health
awareness
week.
B
There
are
links
to
the
issues
that
have
been
posted
on
day,
one
two
and
three
also
in
the
agenda.
If
you
want
to
check
out
the
stuff
that
we've
been
sharing
there-
and
I
think
that's
all
so,
we
can
get
started
john
thanks.
So
much
for
joining
us.
Your
whole
bio
is
in
the
agenda,
but
I'd
love.
If
you
could
just
take
a
second
to
introduce
yourself
to
the
gitlab
team.
C
Yeah,
first
of
all,
it's
a
it's
an
honor
to
have
your
attention
for
this
brief
moment
today,
and
you
should
pat
yourself
on
the
back
just
by
being
here,
you're
already
practicing
what
what
we
would
consider
a
a
rest
ethic.
You
know
you're
stepping
away
from
the
the
task
for
a
moment
to
intentionally
detach.
C
This
is
a
different
form
of
time
off,
which
is,
you
know,
call
it
learning
and
development
that
could
be
done,
reading
and
other
forms
of
media,
but
well
done
you're
already
practicing
a
lot
of
what
I'm
going
to
talk
about
and
and
really
our
goal
with
the
book
was
to
expand
the
connotation
of
time
off.
We
did
surveys
early
on
when
prototyping
the
book.
C
We
found
that
most
people's
default
connotation
was
time
off
only
meant
vacation,
there's
nothing
wrong
with
that,
but
we
always
kind
of
joked.
My
co-author
and
I
that
if
you
look
at
vacation,
it's
rooted
in
the
word
like
to
vacate,
like
you
vacate
a
burning
building,
so
we
wanted
to.
We
wanted
to
have
a
book
that
had
people
proactively
take
time
off
before
it's
too
late.
Why
did
we
decide
to
write
this
book?
C
We
called
it
focusing
on
our
rest
ethic
as
much
as
our
work
ethic
and
that
little
seed
of
an
idea
and
a
concept
that
we
really
gravitated
our
entire
company
around
allowed
me
and
my
team
around
me
to
do
our
best
work.
So
I
became
very
fascinated
by
the
concept
started
a
podcast
talking
to
creatives
entrepreneurs,
scientists,
you
name
it
about
their
time
off
practices,
because
I
was
like
wait.
Is
this
too
good
to
be
true?
C
B
Yeah,
that's
great
thanks
and
I'm
one
of
the
reasons
I
think
I'm
so
excited
to
chat
with
you
about.
This
is
because,
from
my
perspective,
I
think
gitlab
has
a
fantastic
pto
policy,
but
not
it's
not
necessarily
something
that
you've
had
in
the
past
before
and
team
members
might
not
know
how
to
use
it
and
when
to
use
it,
and
especially,
if
they're
coming
from
a
company
where
that
wasn't
the
case,
I'm
wondering
oh
sorry,
go
ahead.
C
Oh
no,
I
was
just
gonna
say
I
I
spent
this
morning.
I
was
very
excited
when
darren,
who
leads
up
your
remote
function.
Heard
me
on
a
podcast.
Apparently
wrote
a
piece
called
time
off
is
productive
in
your
documentation,
your
culture
of
documentation,
highly
recommend.
Reading
that
I
know
josh
has
a
link
to
that.
It's
amazing
and
that
led
me
down
a
a
beautiful,
deep
dive
into
some
of
your
other
documentation.
I
I
refreshed
my
memory
by
going
through
your
handbook
today,
your
paid
time
off
section,
it's
very
verbose
you!
C
You
should
be
very
proud
that
with
compared
to
a
lot
of
the
organizations
we
work
with,
you
are
well
ahead
and
so
well
done.
Of
course
you
can
always
improve
and
iterate,
and
you
will-
and
hopefully
I
can
share
some
ideas
there,
but
I
just
wanted
to
say
well
done
you're
already
in
the
direction
that
I
consider
success.
B
I
think
that
I
think,
maybe
before
we
dig
into
more
strategies
about
how
to
actually
use
the
time
off,
maybe
we
can
take
a
step
back
and
talk
about
burnout
for
a
second,
because
I
think
that
too
often
team
members
get
to
they
get
to
burnout
and
then
realize
I
should
have
or
need
to
do
something
about
it.
And
I'm
wondering
if
we
can
talk
about
strategies
that
teammates
can
use
to
identify
burnout
in
themselves
and
in
others,
and
then
how
to
manage
that
when
they
recognize
that
something
doesn't
feel
right.
C
C
Oh
yeah,
I
think
I'm
able
to
okay
one
second
here
I
just
wanted
to
share
a
quote
from
the
book.
I
think
this
would
be
helpful.
Can
you
see
this
like
mural
board
that
I'm
showing
yep
cool
so
yeah?
Our
book
has
a
lot
of
deep
dives
into
the
different
forms
of
time
off,
and
we
have
a
lot
of
awesome
supporting
profiles
to
help
have
some
narrative
around
some
of
the
science
that
we
studied.
But
I
love
this
profile.
We
did
on
lupita,
nongo
who's,
amazing
actress
she
was.
C
She
was
one
of
the
awesome
actresses
in
the
in
the
movie
black
panther,
and
this
quote
of
hers
is
brilliant
and
I
want
to
use
it
as
an
orientation
to
answer
your
question.
She
says
finishing.
An
intensive
project
is
kind
of
like
having
a
hangover
where
you're
so
used
to
a
rigor
of
existence
and
then
all
of
a
sudden
there's
none.
I
make
the
time
she's
mentioning
her
time
off
practice,
because
otherwise
I
wouldn't
survive.
C
C
What
happens
when
you
not
only
do
that
after
a
feature
you
built
or
maybe
after
a
sprint
week,
if
you're
a
developer,
but
there's
these
larger
project
cycles
and
oscillations,
and
so
I
would
say
the
best
way
is
to
ask
yourself:
when
are
we
entering
the
closing
of
a
pretty
significant
project,
because
most
likely
at
that
moment
your
tank's
getting
low,
whether
you
feel
it
or
not?
And
and
so
that's
like
a
slightly
different
approach.
C
I
know
that
there's
like
burnout
burnout
index
a
cool
tool
that
you
can
use
to
to
look
for
trends
and
I'm
sure
there's
tons
of
efficacy
there.
But
the
way
our
team
looks
at
it
is
look
at
the
end
of
some
kind
of
project
cycle.
That's
a
great
moment
to
take
time
off,
even
if
you're,
not
if
you're
not
feeling
burned
out.
C
But
the
point
is
is
you've
just
gave
a
lot
of
quality
of
input
and
now
is
a
great
time
to
detach
to
fill
back
up
the
battery,
but
then
also
to
use
that
detachment
and
that
time
off
actually
productively
to
say,
hey
now
that
I'm
detached.
I
can
take
a
macro
point
of
view:
reassess
our
team,
the
project
and
go
back
to
that
awesome.
Prompt
of
how
do
we
work
smarter,
not
harder.
B
C
C
B
C
B
D
B
I
think
that
one
of
the
biggest
struggles
that
teams
find
in
taking
making
use
of
the
pto
policy
that
we
have
is
finding
a
way
to
balance
that
with
the
achievement
of
okrs
on
their
team-
and
I
think
you
touched
on
this
a
little
bit
in
talking
about
how
the
end
of
a
big
project
can
be
a
really
great
time
to
take
that
time
off
and
step
away
to
assess.
But
I'm
wondering
if
we
can
talk
a
little
bit
more
about
about
how
to
approach
that
balance.
C
Awesome
so
I
love
okrs
even
at
time
off
again
we
wrote
a
book,
but
now
we
we
run
a
services
business
and
going
to
be
launching
a
product
soon
we're
using
okr.
So
I
can
definitely
relate
to
that
when
I
think
about
okrs,
I
know
they've
been
around
for
a
good
while,
but
john
doerr,
I
believe,
wrote
one
of
the
most
recent
books
on
that
called
measure.
What
matters
and
what
I
love
about,
that
more
recent
documentation
of
the
okr
method
and
philosophy
is
in
that
book.
They
talk
about.
C
Sometimes
you
need
to
refine
your
okrs
based
on.
What's
actually
happened?
Well,
I
agree
and
in
order
to
refine
and
make
something
better,
you
need
to
detach
for
a
moment
right.
It's
that
it's
that
idea
of
don't
work
in
the
business
work
on
it.
So
you
could
also
take
the
word
business
and
replace
that
with
a
project
right,
don't
work
in
the
project.
All
the
time
sometimes
work
on
the
project
which
is
at
that
higher
altitude
and
that's
again,
the
rest
is
productive.
Part
is,
as
darren
did
a
good
job
of
summarizing.
C
My
favorite
section
of
the
book
called
the
creative
process
and
time
off,
you
have
a
four-phase
process
of
any
creative
endeavor
in
the
middle
two,
which
are
called
incubation
and
illumination.
Think
better
ideas
epiphanies
that
aha
moment.
Those
only
occur
by
actually
stepping
away
and
detaching,
and
so
yes
have
awesome
objectives.
C
You
know
that's
something
your
team's
going
to
have
to
manage,
but
when
you
come
back
from
your
time
off,
you
just
came
back
from
a
higher
altitude,
meaning
you
have
clarity,
you
have
epiphanies
and
a
lot
of
organizations.
Don't
do
the
the
important
task
of
actually
honoring
that
window
of
when
that
person
comes
back.
It's
usually
you're
back
on
the
treadmill
at
speed.
C
10
incline
5.,
you
know
you
know
good
work
on
on
your
grit
and
I
all
of
us
can
handle
that,
but
I
don't
recommend
it
because
it's
actually
an
altitude
adjustment
and
you
can
make
the
most
of
it,
because
you
could
document
the
epiphanies
which
could
perhaps
refine
the
okrs
and
revisit
it.
So
I
think
I
think
you're.
C
When
I
read
through
your
handbook,
I
see
a
lot
of
great
work
on
what
I
would
call
time
off:
preparation,
there's
awesome
tools
and
and
sort
of
policies
and
protocols
there
at
least
when
I
read
through
it,
but
I
didn't
see
too
many
on.
How
do
you
incorporate
someone
back?
I
know
there's
some
thought
when
someone
takes
parental
leave,
I
really
honor
that
and
y'all
did
if
you've
done
a
great
job
there,
but
that
also
that
concept
of
reintegration
also
who
isn't
taking
parental
leave,
but
just
these
more
frequent,
proactive
forms
of
time
off.
C
So
I
think
time
off
could
actually
make
your
okr
process
better
by
making
sure
to
get
people's
ideas
and
inputs
on
on
how
those
krs
are
going.
Now
that
we've
actually
had
some
experience
since
the
day
of
of
creating
the
first
version
of
them,
so
yeah
highly
recommend
measure
what
matters.
If
you
haven't
read
it
it's
kind
of
a
more
up-to-date
take
on
okrs
and
they
talk
about
the
nuances,
and
one
of
them
is
sometimes
you
know
in
your
check-ins.
B
But
just
last
week
I
remember
seeing
a
conversation
happening
in
slack
and
I
can't
remember,
I
can't
remember
who
it
was,
but
I
know
that
it
resulted
in
an
mr
to
the
pto
page
talking
about
how
returning
from
time
off
especially
say
if
you're
gone
for
a
week
or
two
weeks
at
a
time
can
feel
like
you're
spending
a
week
or
two
weeks
just
catching
up,
and
you
miss
out
on
the
opportunities
you
were
just
speaking
of
about
coming
back
into
projects.
You've
been
working
on
at
that
higher
altitude
with
a
better
perspective.
C
A
C
A
coach
to
your
company
because
you've
been
detached
for
a
bit
right
again,
work
on
the
project,
not
in
it
and
so
before
you
work
in
the
project
or
in
the
product
or
in
the
company
again,
and
have
that
moment
to
honor
that
you
were
working
on
it.
You
know
you're
at
that
higher
altitude
kind
of
that
abstraction
and
that
can
be
a
real
gift,
because
I've
seen
it
myself
when
I
had
to
figure
out
how
do
we
manage
our
time
off
policy
when
I
was
at
the
firm
animal
ventures
our
model?
C
It's
not
going
to
work
for
everyone,
but
our
model
was
every
person
worked
three
months
on
very
hyper
focused
very
you
know
we
were
small
teams
and
then
we
had
a
month
off
and
we
figured
out
how
to
scale
that
and
stagger
it.
So
the
company
was
still
going
and
we
had
redundancy,
but
that
the
gift
is.
When
someone
came
back,
they
had
all
of
these
great
ideas
and
the
people
working
in
the
business
soon
to
go
out
of
the
business.
C
If
you
will,
they
would
have
a
beautiful
conversation
on
hey,
we've
actually
updated
things
and
then
the
other
person's
like
great,
because
I
had
these
ideas
and
so,
if
you're
doing
these
in
refining
your
rest
ethic
and
your
time
off
practice,
we
have
a
a
strong
belief
that
it
allows
you
to
upgrade
the
organization
just
like
you
would
upgrade
the
version
of
your
software
and
it
decentralizes
it
right.
It's
not
just
one
person
leading
up
hr.
It's
everyone
is
it's
it's
everyone's
contributing
so
yeah.
I
love
geeking
out
on
all
this
stuff.
B
B
B
C
So
going
back
to
this
is
just
me
grabbing
snippets
from
the
book.
I
think
the
table
of
contents
can
help
with
that.
So
we've
got
these
different.
Deep
dives
like
sleep
exercise,
solitude
reflection,
play
travel,
techno,
our
relationship
to
technology
and
we've
got
awesome
profiles
and
different
action
guides
in
there
look,
it's
been
tough
for
me
too.
C
I
I
I'm
more
of
historically
a
I'm
gonna
go
I'm
gonna
time
it
plan
it
and
I'm
gonna
go
to
somewhere,
like
italy
or
greece,
where
there's
a
slower
way
of
living
and
cook
and
read
and
write,
but
that
that
hasn't
been
in
in
my
cards,
and
so
I've
been
doing
more
of
what
I
would
call
a
time
off.
Micro
dosing
versus
I
used
to
do
macro,
hero
doses
in
the
past,
and
so
I've
been
looking
at
to
find
parts
unknown
where
I
am
so.
C
I
live
in
austin,
most
of
the
time
and
so
austin
texas,
I've
just
been
going
on
more
hikes
and
long
walks
around
parts
of
town
that
I've
just
never
actually
gone
on
a
stroll,
and
that
can
be
just
as
stimulating
with
the
right
mindset.
The
last
I
checked
that
is
still
quote:
travel
travel
doesn't
mean
international
tickets.
Only
right.
A
C
It's
it's.
You
know
going
somewhere
new,
exploring
that's
been
a
beautiful
practice
for
me
to
to
find
some
silver
linings
in
this
pandemic.
Another
thing
that
you
know
we
all
have
different
seasons
in
life.
I've
been
living
near
a
couple
that
are
dear
friends
of
mine
that
are
now
new
parents,
talk
about
a
season
season
and
shift
in
their
in
their
life.
Their
time
off
has
to
look
very
different
than
mine.
I
recently
got
two.
C
I
got
two
quarantine
puppies
back
in
back
in
march
and
I
know
that's
nothing
compared
to
actual
human,
human
babies,
but
that's
changed
my
rest
ethic
just
like
it's
changed
my
work
ethic,
and
so
you
got
to
be
creative
and
flow
in
the
chapter.
That
I
think
is
the
most
applicable
to
everyone
in
the
book
is
titled
reflection.
C
C
Greg
mccowen,
who
wrote
the
book
essentialism
calls
them
personal
offsites.
I
think
the
covid
world
has
enabled
lots
of
people
to
think
about
the
personal
offsite,
which
is
to
just
spend
time
alone
with
yourself.
Our
book
has
some
awesome
prompts
to
to
reflect
on.
If
you
don't
have
some
that
you
want
to
reflect
on,
but
that's
again
it's
a
practice
that
you
don't
need
a
plane
ticket.
B
C
B
You
know,
I
think,
personally,
it's
been
a
lot
of
just
reflecting
on
gratitude
and
being
grateful,
because
I
think
we
can
get
so
caught
up
in
being
stressed
out
and
overwhelmed
about
all
of
the
negative
that
I
try
every
day
to
reflect
on
what
is
good
happening
for
me
and
recognizing
that
that
good
still
exists.
Even
though
there's
all
of
this
chaos
happening
in
the
the
my
greater
community
yeah
nice.
So
I
would
say,
gratitude
for
sure,
yeah.
C
D
A
D
C
C
You
have
things
to
show
and
tell,
and
then
you
can
center
that
conversation
around
some
artifacts
rather
than
the
default
group
thing
which
I'm
guilty
of
that
feels
productive,
but
it's
just
kind
of
a
maelstrom
of
conversation
rather
than
a
production
of
something.
So
thanks
for
sharing
that
darwin.
E
So
there's
I
guess-
or
at
least
from
my
perspective,
there's
always
pressure
to
deliver.
You
know
an
aggressive
timeline,
because
within
that
position
we
want
to
get
a
lot
of
this
functionality
into
kit
lab
right.
Now,
I'm
the
only
front-end
developer
on
that
team
and
because
of
the
aggressive
timeline,
I
do
feel
a
little
bit
guilty
or
uncomfortable
about
taking
paid
time
off
when
the
rest
of
the
team
you
know,
is
contributing
their
part
to
this
aggressive
timeline.
So
my.
E
C
For
example,
I
mentioned
in
the
creative
process,
there's
incubate
and
illuminate,
which
happens
by
detaching
detaching,
also
a
great
word,
and
so
by
changing
the
vocabulary
I
found
can
have
a
profound
effect
by
saying.
Look,
this
isn't
me
being
lazy
and
not
caring,
but
I'm
I'm
actually
going
to
zoom
out
I'm
going
to
get
in
the
helicopter.
C
I'm
going
to
go
high
altitude
to
not
only
relax
and
enjoy
the
view,
but
that
view
of
looking
down
at
everything
is
actually
going
to
give
me
some
ideas
which
will
ultimately
come
back
to
the
team
back
to
the
project.
Back
to
the
build
you
know,
I
I
have
this
background
on
my
computer,
created
by
this
awesome
designer
named
jack
butcher
of
visualize
value,
and
he
shows
I
wonder
if
I
can
just
show
it.
C
Can
you
see
this
so
systems
systems
allow
you
to
create
more,
you
know
free
time,
and
so
I
show
this
visual
because
I
use
it
to
inspire
me
to
realize,
like
during
my
time
off,
I
get
better
ideas
for
systems
because
to
to
appropriately
prepare
for
time
off
and
to
reintegrate.
Well,
you
and
your
team
are
going
to
have
to
change
up
things.
C
You
might
say
you
know
I'm
going
to
do
x,
y
and
z,
which
honors
your
rest
ethic
and
the
things
you
like
to
do
and
during
that
time
you
know
it's
going
to
be
awesome.
I'm
going
to
probably
have
some
ideas
come
to
me
and
I'm
going
to
be
thinking
about
you
all
and
when
I
come
back,
I'm
not
only
going
to
share
the
awesome
things
I
did.
That
gave
me
rest
and
prevented
burnout,
but
hey
I
here's
here's
just
like
some
epiphanies.
C
I
had
you
know,
and
then
the
team
can
likewise
share
that
back
to
you
and
you
start
giving
permission
and
changing
the
culture
and
the
psychology
around
it
of
hey
time
off
is
not
only
awesome
and
honors,
the
meaning
of
life
and
human
experience,
but
it
also
is
productive
and
it's
not
a
lazy
thing.
It's
not
a
I'm,
throwing
in
the
white
towel
thing.
It's
a
it's!
You
know
our
book
talks
about
it
through
the
analogy
of
breath.
C
C
So
I
mentioned
the
need
for
refining
and
instituting
this
like
you.
Could
you
and
your
team
might
come
up
with
your
your
own
words
for
it,
but
this
reincorporation
reintegration
practice
if
done
well
this,
what
we
call
what
we
help
companies
with
is
like
the
show
and
tell
so
let
me
just
ask
you
real
quick,
what's
like
what
some
of
your
hobbies
with
what
some
of
your?
What
does
your
leisure
look
like
just
give
me
a
an
idea.
C
Yeah
sure
sure
so
why
I
was
asking
you
what
what
your
leisure
might
look
like
is,
as
you
start
sharing
what
yours
is
and
how,
how
you
not
only
take
pride
in
it,
but
that
it
was
actually
productive
and
it
gave
you
these
ideas
just
that
act
alone
gives
permission
to
others
to
like
wait
like
she's
she's
talking
about
not
work
a
lot,
that's
like
there's
a
stigma,
at
least
in
the
west
like
oh,
this
is
weird.
You
can't
talk
about
not
work
at
work,
it's
like
no!
C
You
should,
and
we
spend
so
much
time,
workshopping
the
quote
work.
I
encourage
teams
workshop.
How
do
you?
How
do
you
work
less
like
that,
that
question
alone
we've
helped
like
customer
support
teams,
for
example
they're
not
going
to
come
up
with
a
overnight?
You
know
sabbatical
model,
but
by
just
spending
an
hour
workshopping
how
they
could
work
less,
while
still
delivering
quality
experience,
guess
what
they
start.
C
Thinking
about
systems
and
and
cool
new
ways
that
they
didn't
previously
identify
on
how
they
could
work
smarter,
not
just
harder,
because
I
think
that's
at
least
in
the
west
I'm
guilty
of
it
too.
Of
the
default
is,
oh,
we
just
gotta
go
harder,
whereas
if
you
look
again
the
analogy
of
a
professional
athlete,
they
do
days
where
they
watch
themselves
performing
right,
because
it's
not
just
about
being
faster
and
lifting
harder.
C
It's
you
know,
moving
smarter
and
using
different
forms
of
leverage,
and
so
stress
is
contagious
and
so
is
calm,
and
so
I
think
you
can
still
start
encouraging
by
just
simply
doing
it
yourself
and
then
talking
about
it
with
with
sort
of
pride,
because
that
gives
permission
to
others
to
to
do
it.
That's
kind
of
how
I
I
think
about
it.
Yeah
great
question.
A
Yes,
thank
you.
Hi
john
also,
a
big
fan
of
jack
butcher,
visualize
value,
so
my
question
is:
should
side
projects
be
avoided
during
time
off?
I
find
that
I
often
have
a
burst
of
energy
a
few
days
into
a
time-off
period,
and
I
want
to
get
back
onto
my
computer
and
start
working
on
a
passion
project,
but.
C
C
Practice
I
so
I
think
about
you
know
range
is
a
as
a
I
think
about
range,
and
so
just
like
all
of
our
work,
ethics
they're
all
different
right.
We
all
have
our
own
recipe.
Some
of
us
are
more
of
the
to
darwin's
point.
We
need
to
like
sit
in
solitude
for
a
long
time
and
then
sudden
boom,
aha
clarity.
Now
I'm
gonna
laser
in
other
people
might
want
to
go
deep
into
the
weeds
for
a
while
then
detach.
C
There
is
no
one-size-fits-all
with
a
work
ethic
same
thing
with
the
rest
ethic,
so
some
people-
and
this
is
a
part
of
the
the
tool
that
we're
building
now-
is
to
understand
what
someone's
rest
ethic
looks
like
because
it's
it's
very
different.
You
look
at
enneagram
strength,
finders,
a
lot
of
these
personality
assessments,
that's
kind
of
what
we're
working
on
is
a
time
off
personality
assessment,
so
some
some
people-
they're
very
active.
You
know,
like
my
co-author,
max
he's
like
an
ultra
marathoner,
crossfitter
and
so
his
time
off.
C
I
look
at
and
I'm
like,
that's
some
intense
time
on,
but
that's
my
perspective
right,
whereas
I'm
much
more
of
the
I
put
I
put
away
technology
and
I
I
look
kind
of
you-
know
leisurely
and
lazy
because
I
just
like
to
contemplate
and
reflect
and
observe
that's
my
style
right
so
and
I'm
glad
you
brought
this
up.
That
was
our
goal
with
the
book
was
we
wanted
to
show
that
time
off
is
not
just
drinking
a
margarita
on
a
beach
there's,
nothing
wrong
with
that.
C
That's
fun
too,
but
it
can
be
these
very
active
forms
of
time
off
whether
it's
a
hobby
or
a
side
project.
You
know
we.
I
interviewed
kevin
kelly
on
my
podcast,
who
was
the
founding
editor
of
wired,
amazing,
author
and
futurist,
and
his
he's
a
spends
a
lot
of
time
in
the
digital
realm
in
his
time
office
to
actually
get
inspiration
from
the
analog.
So
he
builds
like
toy
trains.
C
He
has
a
carpentry
shop
again
very
active,
but
that
is
his
form
of
intentional
time
off
in
in
detachment,
which
I
applaud
much
different
than
mine.
But
you
know
all
of
us
have
things
that
bring
us,
meaning
we
have
a
concept
in
the
book
called
noble,
leisure.
I
love
those
two
words
combined
whatever
you
do
in
your
leisure
time.
That
brings
you,
meaning
it's
not
only
important
to
prevent
burnout
in
these
other
topics.
C
C
D
B
D
B
For
asking
a
mistake,
something
I
just
wanted
to
add:
if
it's
okay
before
we
go
into
the
next
one
is
something
that
I've
got
tried
to
get
better
at
since
joining
get
lab.
Is
finding
moments
like
these,
not
just
on
full
days
where
I
am
100
away
from
my
computer,
and
I
think
that
that's
something
that's
really
unique
to
our
asynchronous
culture
that
team
members
can
leverage
to
think
about
how
time
to
to
work
on
side
projects
or
whatever
that
that
noble
leisure
is
for.
B
You
doesn't
have
to
mean
that
you
are
away
from
your
computer
for
a
week
to
do
so.
It
could
mean
that
you
walk
away
for
two
hours
to
do
so
in
the
middle
of
the
day.
So
I
think
I
just
wanted
to
call
that
out,
because
I
think
often
when
we
think
of
time
off,
we
think
of
I'm,
I'm
closing
my
computer
and
I'm
not
working
today,
and
I
think
that
with
our
asynchronous
culture,
that's
true
and
it
can
also
integrate
into
our
days.
C
That
model
applies
to
different
altitudes,
to
samantha's
point
that
that
happens
in
a
day.
It
happens
actually
in
an
hour,
and
it
also
can
happen
at
these
higher
altitudes
of
of
a
much
larger
endeavor.
So
the
scope
of
that
is
applicable.
Sorry,
it's
applicable
to
multiple
scopes.
So
that's
something
we
use
at
our
own
small
company
here
at
time
off.
Is
our
team
uses
the
word
incubate,
just
because
it's
in
the
book-
and
so
at
any
moment
you
know
I'll
I'll
say
like
I'm
going
out,
paddle
boarding.
C
B
H
Yeah
absolutely
thank
you,
hi
john,
a
little
out
of
the
scope
of
your
focus
in
the
broader
context
of
burnout
and
kind
of
relates
to
the
situation
that
I
think
many
of
us
can
associate
with
where
we're
all
remote
right.
So
inherently
you
have
to
you,
have
to
combat
isolate
isolationism,
both
coved
and
shelter,
in
place
and
even
outside
the
work
you
have
limited
opportunities
to
to
connect
with
other
people
in
the
community
or
friends.
Arguably
async
is
also
contribute,
potentially
contributes
to
this.
H
In
terms
of
just
your
you
know,
we
also
just
a
point
of
contact.
We
also
get
together
for
our
annual
event.
We
also
do
generally
in
person
meetings
for
qbr's
and
things
like
that.
So
with
all
that
gone
away,
I
feel
like
one
of
the
challenges
that
that
I
personally
felt
that
I
think
the
team
does
is
just
lack
of
connect
connectedness
to
our
team
and
just
humans
in
general.
How
do
you
think
about
that?
And
do
you
have
any
recommendations.
C
Yeah,
you
know
everyone
probably
has
a
based
on
where
you're
located
so
right
now,
I'm
I
I
came
to
hawaii
to
propose
to
my
girlfriend
two
days
ago.
She
said
yes,
so
I'm
feeling
I'm
feeling
very
good.
But
congratulations.
Oh
thank
you.
Thank
you.
I
was
super
nervous
not
only
because
of
that,
but
I
was
you
know.
It
was
my
first
time
to
get
on
a
plane
since
february
of
of
2020
and
but
the
state
of
hawaii
I
mean
they're
an
island.
C
They
can
do
this
better
than
other
states,
but
I
mean
I
have
to
take
three
covid
tests
to
even
get
on
the
plane
and
so
did
everyone
else,
and
then,
when
I
landed
I
got
tested
again
and
and-
and
that
gave
me
a
confidence
and
and
to
then
be
here
and
visit
with
people.
The
point
I'm
making
there
is
all
of
us
have
different
levels
of
comfort
around
a
pandemic
and
what
we
do
with
our
own
model
of
ethics,
et
cetera.
C
I
find
even
in
a
virtual
context
in
a
moment,
synchronous
work
with
the
team.
You
know
all
of
us
have
on
our
calendars,
this
synchronous
meeting-
you
know-
let's
say
next
tuesday,
and
it's
got
a
title
like
you
know,
xyz
workshop
or
blank
review
whatever
it
is.
All
those
typically
are
those
those
things
on
our
calendar
are
usually
about
the
work
working
in
the
project
in
the
business.
C
Great,
it's
important
gotta
have
it
for
your
work
ethic,
but
maybe
put
on
a
calendar
a
time
off
talk
or
a
show
and
tell
is
what
we
call
it
at
our
team,
where
the
entire
objective
of
the
the
moment
is
for
each
one
of
us
to
show
some
photos
or
some
videos
of
our
leisure.
Like
hey,
like
I
went
on
this
hike
or
hey
me,
and
my
kids
built
this
amazon
box
castle
and
literally
there
isn't
a
moment
where
you
talk
about
the
task
list
and
all
the
things
to
do
at
work.
C
It's
each
person
talking
about
their
you
know
what
they
do
outside
of
work.
That's
been
really
beautiful.
I
usually
have
it's
in
another
room,
but
there's
this
company
called
best
self
co.
They
started
with
the
journal,
but
now
they
make
these
like
cards
these
conversation
cards.
I
love
doing
those
in
person,
but
I've
also
been
using
them
on
virtual
calls,
and
it's
just
a
small
deck
of
cards
that
have
these
like
profound
questions.
C
They
have
one
for
intimacy
and
romance.
They
have
one
for
ice
breakers.
I
love
the
icebreaker
one,
and
so,
when
we
do
workshops
with
teams,
I
I
get
people
I
think,
into
a
new
comfort
zone,
I'm
not
gonna,
say
a
discomfort
zone,
but
we're
I'm
like
hey
we're,
not
gonna
talk
about
work
for
the
next
30
minutes.
We're
actually
going
to
talk
about
what
we
do
outside
of
work
and
it
honors
each
person.
C
And
so
I
know
it
is
tough,
like
there's
nothing
like
human
human
eye
contact,
hopefully
with
track
and
trace
getting
better.
Some
of
us
will
be
better
off
with
maybe
visiting
some
people
with
less
anxiety,
but
even
if
you're
still
going
fully
virtual.
I
just
stop
talking
about
the
work
for
a
moment
and
talk
about
each
person
outside
of
work
and
it's
powerful,
that's
something
I
I
highly
recommend
as
an
exercise
with
your
immediate
team
cool.
Thank.
F
B
F
Sure
so,
well,
thanks
john
ben,
very
quickly.
I
wanted
to
solve
of
a
tangentially
related
subject,
which
was
impostor
syndrome,
which
I
think
is
really
also
the
time
of,
because
one
of
the
reasons
why
maybe
you
don't
take
as
much
time
on
stuff
you
need
is
that
you
feel
you
wonder,
have
I
done
enough
or
haven't
done
enough
quality
work?
Do
I
really
deserve
more
time
if
I'm
going
to
delay
it,
because
I
I
want
to
contribute
more
before
I
feel
like
I
can
take
time
off
and.
C
C
Yeah
totally
again,
I
the
what
I
mentioned
earlier.
This
concept
of
you
don't
need
a
passport
or
an
expensive
plane
ticket
to
travel
inward,
and
I
think
that
one
way
to
proactively
prevent
imposter
syndrome
is
is
to
do
that.
Internal
alignment
that
internal
work,
which
I
do
through
journaling
some
people
don't
even
write
down.
They
just
think
and
and
feel,
and
that's
fine
too.
C
I
just,
I
think,
that
through
a
frequent
reflection
practice
and
that
can
manifest
in
different
formats
allows
you
to
really
understand
who
you
are
versus
what
society
wants
you
to
be.
I
know
I
get
directed
in
all
kinds
of
directions.
You
know
I'm
I've
spent
most
of
my
career
as
a
software
designer
product
designer
and
now
I'm
an
author,
and
it's
like
what
this
is
a
weird
shift
in
who
an
identity
crisis
at
times.
C
Oh
thanks
lindsay
someone
shared
a
journal
resource.
You
know
I
I
have
a
few
prompts
that
are
very
simple.
We
reference
them
in
the
book,
but
I'll
just
give
them
to
you.
Now
that
you
don't
you,
don't
need
a
lot
of
tools
to
to
do
it,
but
I
have
a
few
questions
that
allow
me
to
really
refine
myself
and
not
feel
guilty
about
time
off
and
ultimately
help
me
identify
who
I
really
am,
and
what
I
really
want.
C
C
That's
an
important
prompt
that
I
regularly
revisit
another
one
is
called
the
more
of
lest
of
less
of
list,
so
I
just
take
out
a
piece
of
paper
on
line
down
the
middle
left
side,
right
side,
more
of
colon,
other
side,
less
the
colon
and
I
just
sit
there
and
identify
what
are
things
I
want
to
do
more
of
in
life
and
what
are
the
things
that
now
that
I've
had
some
time
to
marinate
and
incubate
on
them?
The
things
that
drain
me
you
know-
and
I
I
put
those
on
the
lesso
of
list.
C
I
do
this
very
frequently
and
you
can
literally
take
five
minutes
to
do
it.
You
can
take
50
minutes
to
do
it.
It
becomes
a
compass,
it
allows
me
to
say
no
more
gracefully.
It
allows
me
to
to
reach
re-shift
my
task
list
to
figure
out
what
is
the
domino
worth
knocking
down?
You
know
and
ultimately
gets
me
back
in
this
mindset
of
working
smarter
rather
than
just
defaulting
to
to
harder.
C
I'm
sure
there's
many
many
other
prompts
that
are
probably
better
than
the
two
I
just
mentioned,
but
those
two
have
served
me
very
well
and
they
cost
nothing
besides
a
a
piece
of
pen
and
paper
and
some
some
solitude.
You
know
a
brief
moment
of
pause
so
yeah.
I
feel
you
I've
I've.
I've
been
leaning
more
into
accepting
this
kind
of
weird
career,
hybrid
shift.
That's
happened
to
me
and
instead
of
feeling
like
guilty
about
it
or
weird
about
it,
I
I
can
increase
my
my
confidence.
C
C
I
I
enter
more
of
a
space
of
jomo,
of
a
joy
of
missing
out
on
some
of
these
things
that
I
feel
stressed
out
about
and
ultimately
focused
on,
quality
versus
quantity,
so
yeah
I
I
again
if,
if
you
have
any
other
nuances
or
details,
feel
free
to
email
me,
I
I
think
about
this
stuff.
All
the
time
and
again
I
proudly
say
I'm
a
recovering
workaholic,
because
my
type,
a
go-go-go
personality
surfaces
every
hour
and
I
have
to
sit
down
and
have
tea
with
that
version
of
john.