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A
Okay,
well
welcome
everyone
to
this
live
speaker
series
that
the
learning
and
development
team
is
hosting
today.
I'm
really
excited
to
welcome
john
fitch
to
be
our
live
speaker,
for
this
call,
john,
is
joining
us
for
a
second
time.
If
you
were
with
gitlab
back
in
december,
you
might
remember.
We
had
a
mental
health
awareness
week
and
we
hosted
john
for
a
live
speaker
series.
Then
talking
about
the
value
of
taking
time
off
and
so
super
excited
to
have
john
back
today.
A
Our
call
today
a
little
bit
different
topic,
so
we're
hoping
by
the
end
of
this
discussion
either.
If
you
are
a
manager
or
an
individual
contributor,
you
feel,
like
you,
have
ideas
about
how
you
can
start
building
and
practicing
rest
ethic
and
also
how
you
can
enable
other
people
on
your
team
and
other
people
on
the
wider
gitlab
team
to
build
their
rest
ethic
before
I
introduced
john
just
wanted
to
go
through
a
few
logistics,
we're
going
to
do
a
fireside
chat
format
for
this
call.
A
So
the
first
bit
I'll
ask
john
a
few
questions
that
are
in
the
dock.
If
you
want
to
check
them
out
and
then
we're
going
to
open
it
up
to
ama,
so
if
you
have
any
questions
for
john
or
if
they
come
up
as
he
and
I
are
talking,
and
also
if
you
like-
want
to
chime
into
the
conversation
that
john
and
I
are
having
as
well
feel
free
to
do
that.
But
if
you
have
questions
that
come
up,
you
can
add
them
to
the
session.
A
One
question
section
we're
having
two
sessions
today,
one
later
on
so
make
sure
you
add
them
to
session
one
and
one
more
thing.
I
wanted
to
call
out
on
the
first
page,
there's
the
lab
team
member
resources
section,
and
it
has
some
links
to
our
pto
policy,
which
is
always
good
to
review
and
remember
and
book
some
time
off.
A
If
you
haven't
had
some
recently
or
maybe
even
if
you
already
had
some
recently
and
you
need
some
more
go,
do
that
today
and
then
some
other
resources,
like
our
mental
wellness,
channel
and
git
lab,
learn
some
modern
health
benefits
and
then
links
to
courses
and
books.
That
john,
is
the
author
of.
A
So
this
is
john
super
excited
to
have
him
here,
he's
the
author
of
time
off
a
practical
guide
to
building
your
rest
ethic
and
finding
success
without
the
stress
and
a
new
title
as
well
that
I
actually
have
not
read
yet
called
the
non-obvious
guide
to
magical
meetings,
reinvent
how
your
team
works
together.
So
welcome
john.
B
It's
an
honor,
much
obliged
and
I'm
less
nervous
this
time,
because
we've
done
it
once
before
and
it
again
it's
just
an
honor
and
if
you
weren't
on
a
few
minutes
ago,
I
I
was
telling
samantha
and
crew
that
I
name
drop,
get
lab
multiple
times
a
day
just
because
of
both
in
the
book
time
off
and
magical
meetings.
You
know
it's
a
lot
of
it's
a
lot
of
theory
and
ideas
and
when
other
people
come
to
us
and
say
this
is
all
fantastic.
B
Can
you
give
us
some
concrete
examples
of
this
in
action
and
gitlab
is
usually
top
of
my
list
of
references
that
I
can
literally
point
to
thanks
to
your
openness
and
transparency
of
your
company
documentation
around
very
forward-thinking
organization,
design
and
practices.
So
it's
literally
my
honor
because
without
you
I
think,
I'd
be
less
credible.
C
A
Again
too,
before
I
ask
you
the
first
question
team
members
can
see
like
your
full
bio
in
the
in
the
meeting
doc,
but
I
wanted
to
see
if
there
was
anything
else
you
wanted
to
call
out
to
introduce
yourself
that
I
missed
or
that's
not
in
the
bio.
B
I
would,
I
would
just
add
that-
and
I
think
this
is
very
important
specifically
for
the
topic
today
and
I'll
model,
the
behavior.
So
what's
really
important
to
me
in
my
leisure
time,
in
our
book
time
off,
we
talk
about
it
as
a
noble
leisure.
B
That
is
one
of
the
things
I
do
constantly
in
my
leisure
time,
and
it's
important
fills
my
soul
with
meaning,
and
it's
always
great
when
you
have
a
big
harvest
to
then
share
that
with
neighbors
and
then
lastly,
I
I
practice
many
different
forms
of
martial
arts
as
a
physical
activity
which
helps
me
detach
as
well.
So
those
are
the
things
I
do
outside
of
quote
work
that
give
me
a
lot
of
meaning,
and
I
still
really
level
me
up
as
a
professional
in
a
human.
B
A
Course,
yeah
thanks
for
sharing
okay.
So
this
first
question
I
have
in
the
fireside
chat
and,
like
I
said
last
time
when
we
met,
we
talked
like
pretty
specifically
about
pto
and
how
taking
time
off
can
add
value
to
what
you're
doing
at
work
and
just
in
your
life
in
general,
and
today
we're
going
to
talk
a
little
bit
more
about
building
rest
ethic
and
what
that
looks
like
so
for
people
who
haven't
heard
of
your
work
before
or
haven't
heard
of
rest
ethic.
I'd
love!
B
Totally,
it
was
a
lot
of
fun
when
we
were
writing
the
book
to
have
some
key
terms
to
center
a
lot
of
the
research
around
and
and
rest
ethic
came
to
us
when
we
were
talking
about
a
line
in
the
book
where
you
should
take
your
rest
as
serious
as
your
work
and
therefore
we're
like
well.
What
does
taking
your
work
seriously?
Look
like
what
you
know.
That's
the
topic
of
work
ethic
and
I
think
work
ethic
accurately
defined
is
quality
of
work
and
doing
what
you
say.
B
You
say
you're
going
to
do,
it's
not
busyness,
and
so,
when
we
defined
work
ethic,
we're
like
oh
wait,
there's
a
opposite
side
of
that
which
is
rest
ethic,
which
is
to
also
take
your
rest
as
serious
as
your
work.
And
when
you
take
your
work
serious,
it
involves
things
like
discipline,
consistency,
persistence,
permission,
practice,
improving,
and
so
you
take
those
same
characteristics
and
you
apply
it
to
your
rest.
That's
that's
kind
of
the
whole
point
of
of
our
body
of
work.
B
B
If
you
look
at
their
coaches,
I
would
I
would
consider
them.
That's
their
managers,
that's
their
leaders,
they
they
treat
the
rest
as
serious
as
the
work,
and
we
are
elite
performers
as
knowledge
workers
and
creative
workers.
So
this
whole
idea
of
rest
ethic
is
just
as
much
as
a
coach
would
approach
their
athlete
with
intentional
rest.
After
high
intensity
or
high
volume
training,
we
can
do
the
same
with
us
because
we're
in
the
projects,
business
and
projects,
I
think,
are
analogous
to
great
training
and
performance.
B
So
just
like
elite
athletes.
We
deserve
highly
intentional
rest
and
we
have
to
be
disciplined
about
it
and
that's
the
whole
idea
around
a
rest,
epic
and
just
like
each
one
of
us
on
this
call
has
a
different
work
ethic
like
some
of
us,
like
short
spurts,
of
deep
work,
followed
by
detachment,
some
of
us
like
long
hours,
followed
by
long
breaks,
there's
no
one
right
way
with
a
quality
work
ethic
same
thing
with
the
rest
ethic.
Some
people
need
very
passive
forms
of
of
rest.
A
It
asks
you
to
like
breathe
in
and
then
breathe
out
and
to
me
that
was
just.
A
B
So
I
can
have
a
higher
altitude
perspective,
which
our
book
goes
into
the
details
of
why
that
increases
creativity,
strategy,
etc.
So
yeah,
I
I
got
very
excited
when
I
proved
to
myself
that
time
off
is
actually
a
type
of
work
that
I
need
to
do,
and
it's
quite
liberating.
A
Yeah
thanks
for
sharing,
so
this
next
question-
and
I
know
the
a
lot
of
the
like
promotion
around
this-
that
I
did
was
targeted
at
managers.
So
I'm
hoping
that
we
have
a
good
amount
of
managers
on
the
call.
I'm
wondering
how
can
managers
at
get
lab
reinforce,
building
a
rest
ethic
for
their
team
members?
How
can
they
like?
Okay,
you've,
just
convinced
them
in
10
minutes.
B
B
That's
amazing
story
and
empathy,
and
it's
it's
just
great
for
you
to
share
what
do
you
do
in
your
noble
leisure?
What
was
your
time
off
and
you
know
talk
talk
about
that
as
with
as
much
pride
as
you
talk
about
the
last
project,
you
you
finished
and
shipped
and
and
there's
a
lot
of
fun
ways
that
you
can.
B
You
can
communicate
this
from
your
your
workshops
and
your
meetings
and
bringing
that
up
to
your
weekly
sinks,
to
your
one-on-ones
to
you
know
we're
a
big
believer
in
getting
really
creative
on
your
out
of
office
responder
because
think
about
that.
That's
like
free
marketing
around
it's
kind
of
an
automated
marketing,
so
yeah
you
I
I
would
say
I
feel
very
strongly
that
you
have
to
model
the
behavior
first
because
it
gives
permission
and-
and
it's
not
just
a
hey.
I
took
time
off
because
I'm
exhausted
it's
like.
B
I
took
time
off
because
it's
smart,
because
that
that
allows
me
to
invest
in
higher
quality
of
ideas,
I'm
able
to
detach
for
a
bit
and
come
back
with
a
higher
enthusiasm,
and
I
want
the
same
for
all
of
you
right
and
so.
I've
seen
that
that
simple
gesture
has
tremendous
butterfly
effects
with
the
rest
of
the
team
and
and
so
that's
step.
One
is
to
do
it
yourself
and
then
the
next
area
that
is
very
exciting
is
be
a
time-off
investigator.
B
B
We
default
to
asking
about
the
project
and
the
work,
and
I'm
not
saying
that
you
shouldn't
that
is
important,
but
we
can
put
the
same
amount
of
curiosity
into
how
what
was
someone's
recent
time
off
for
their
mini
sabbatical.
Or
you
know
what
do
they
do
in
their
leisure
time
and
bring
that
up
more
often
in
in
your
investigation
and
getting
to
know
people,
because
I've
seen
this
a
hundred
percent
of
the
time
when
I,
with
my
own
team,
when
I
ask
about
their
time
off
what
it
entails,
what
did
it
unlock?
B
B
These
things
sound,
very
simple,
but
we
have
to
with
intent,
start
practicing
it
and
it
has
tremendous
butterfly
effects,
because
once
you
give
permission,
each
person
that
you
manage
likely
is
either
going
to
be,
or
is
the
manager
of
someone
else
or
a
leader
and
so
yeah
it.
It
has
a
wonderful
multiplier
once
you
start
to
embody
it.
Maybe
you
have
a
specific
question
around
those
two
concepts
I'm
happy
to
dive
in
or
if
anyone
has
questions
they
can
post
in
the
chat
as
well.
We
can
be
curating
questions
as
we
do.
A
Yeah,
I
I
so
what
you
were
just
saying
about
building
trust,
as
you
were
talking,
that's
kind
of
what
I
was
thinking
about
is
how
having
these
conversations
to
share
what
people
are
doing
with
their
noble
leisure,
is
such
a
great
way
for
teams
to
build
trust.
It's
like
a
jc,
and
I
jc,
is
one
of
my
colleagues
on
the
lnd
team.
A
We've
been
planning
for
the
crucial
conversations
training
at
get
lab
coming
up
in
the
next
quarter,
so
and,
and
one
of
the
like
key
pieces
for
crucial
conversations
to
go
well,
is
that
you
build
trust
with
the
person
that
you
are
having
a
crucial
conversation
with,
and
so
it's
almost
like
having
these
conversations
is,
is
like
a
proactive
way
to
build
trust
with
your
team
members,
so
that,
when
those
crucial
conversations
come
up,
not
that
that's
like
the
motivation
behind
it,
but
it
it
helps
so
that
when
those
crucial
conversations
come
up,
you've
already
put
the
time
in
to
build
trust
with
the
people
that
you're
working
with.
B
I'm
gonna,
I'm
gonna
double
click
on
that,
because
I
I
really
love
what
you
just
said
is
that,
based
off
the
book
crucial
conversations,
a
great
book
amazing
book,
so
I'm
gonna
play
a
little
intellectual
ping
pong
with
you
there,
because
I
think
that
there's
actually
what
you
said
and
what
I
said,
there's
there's
a
good
volley
there.
So
speaking
of
crucial
conversations,
you
made
me
think
about
a
third,
so
the
first
was
model.
It
yourself,
second,
is
ask
about
time
off
with
your
your
team.
B
The
third
is
sometimes
you
need
to
have
a
crucial
conversation
around
the
topic
of
time
off,
and
I
think
how
you
think
about,
like
I
think
about
who
do.
I
trust
the
most
in
my
community,
and
it's
not
only
my
friends
that
want
the
best
for
me,
but
they're
willing
to
have
a
hard
conversation
with
me
because
they
are
seeing
something
I
can't
see
and
I've
had
to
do
this
and
I
know
the
value
of
it
because
a
leader
that
in
the
past
that
led
me
had
the
same
crucial
conversation
which
is
hey
john.
B
When
was
the
last
time
you
took
some
time
off.
You
look
a
little
burned
out.
How
are
you
feeling
right
now?
I
have
noticed
that
it's
been
a
while,
since
you've
had
some
time
off
what's
going
on
and
let's,
let's
maybe
talk
about
how
we
can
have
a
break,
and
so
that's
a
third
which
is
someone
might
not
even
be
seen
that
they
need
time
off.
B
They
can't
even
imagine
it
for
a
number
of
reasons,
and
I
think
that
that's
a
crucial
conversation
to
have,
because
again
it
can
maybe
lead
to
you
helping
that
person
do
something
that
was
hard
for
them
to
do
themselves
by
granting
them
some
time
off,
because
you
know
its
value
and
then
another
awesome
byproduct
of
that
which
is
a
whole
other
deep
dive
is
sometimes
that
crucial
conversation
can
help.
You
spotlight
obvious
areas
of
improvement
across
your
team
and
what
is
leading
to
burnout.
B
What
is
leading
to
someone
not
feeling
like
they
can
take
time
off.
Well,
there
you
go
that's
an
obvious
bug
that
needs
to
be
fixed
and
so
yeah.
I
think
these
three,
these
three
approaches
can
lead
to
these
crucial
conversations
to
help
your
team
work.
Smarter,
not
just
harder.
A
I
was
going
to
add
to
that
as
well
that
I
think,
having
those
conversations
and
recognizing
burnout
on
an
all-remote
team
is
really
hard,
because
it's
it's
easy
to
see
someone
in
your
office
and
maybe
notice
that
they're
feeling
burnt
out
by
the
way
that
they
hold
themselves
or
show
up
in
a
room
or
don't
show
up
in
a
room,
and
I
think
in
all
remote
environments.
A
Just
speaking
for
myself,
if
I'm
feeling
burnt
out,
I
will
hide.
I
don't
want
people
to
know,
I'm
feeling
burnt
out,
and
I
think
others
probably
do
similar
things.
So
I
think
at
gitlab
we
face
a
unique
challenge
in
in
just
needing
to
be
more
transparent
ourselves
about
how
we're
feeling
and
ask
about
how
others
are
feeling,
because.
B
Yeah,
all
that's
great
samantha,
and
you
might
remember
this
from
the
course
you
took.
B
So,
let's
say
samantha
you
and
I
have
a
team
of
four
others
that
you
and
I
lead.
This
is
a
really
fun
exercise
to
do.
You
could
do
this
in
in
a
mural
or
miro
board.
You
could
do
this
with
a
piece
of
paper
and
then
each
person
just
holds
it
up
in
the
zoom
camera
up
to
you,
but
what's
important
is
that
the
exercise
and
takes
in
a
little
bit
of
quiet
time,
library,
rules,
solo,
work
and
then
a
moment
of
socialization
and
in
either
case?
B
It's
called
the
more
of
less
of
list.
You
just
take
a
piece
of
paper
or
it
could
be
inside
of
a
again
a
digital
design
program.
But
there's
a
line
down
the
middle
on
one
side
is
more
of
and
the
other
side
is
less
of,
and
you
ask
each
person
hey
just
take
this
time
to
write.
What
are
some
things
you
would
like.
B
It
is
amazing
what
this
exercise
can
do.
I
do
this
professionally.
I
also
do
this
personally.
At
home,
or
with
friends
and
key
relationships,
so
that's
one,
the
other
one,
which
is
same
framework,
different
prompt,
which
is
rather
than
more
of
less
of
you,
say
what
energizes
you
and
what
drains
you,
because
I've
found
that,
in
the
whole
time
moth
thing,
even
though
it
uses
the
word
time.
B
B
A
We
have
a
little
bit
of
time
before
we
go
to
the
ama
to
ask
this
last
question,
which
I
think
is
the
I
kind
of
think
about
them
like
stacking
on
top
of
each
other,
and
I
feel
like
this
so
for
we
like
talked
about
how
to
build
rest
ethic
and
now
how
to
encourage
rest
ethic.
So
now
I'm
wondering
how
do
you
communicate
the
value
that
building
ethic
and
rest
had
on
the
work
that
you're
doing
like?
How
would
someone
at
gitlab
go
back
and
say
you
know
as
we're
reviewing
this
quarter?
B
Sure
yeah,
so
there's
there's
two
areas.
One
is
to
me
the
least
exciting,
and
it's
kind
of
the
obvious
and
talked
about
everywhere
in
in
the
industry,
especially
over
the
last
year
and
a
half
and
that's
burnout
prevention.
So
you
look
at
the
cost
of
burnout
and
then
it's
like
well.
This
is
a
this
is
a
preventative
measure
for
that
and
there's
a
lot
of
research
there
and
you
could
you
could
that's
one
way
you
could
wrap
the
story
and
if
you
could
show
a
decrease
in
burnout
across
your
team.
B
I
think
that
that
is
that's
what
a
lot
of
I
think
all
in
my
community,
of,
like
chief
people,
officers
and
other
people,
thinking
about
the
people
side
of
an
organization
they
really
care
about
that
metric,
and
I
think
that's
important,
and
I
just
feel
like
speaking
that
first,
but
I
think
there's
a
more
important
area
of
showing
the
value
and
that's
in
creativity
like
we're.
Thankfully,
all
of
us
are
knowledge
workers,
creative
workers.
B
So
therefore
we
fit
into
a
formula
that
not
all
of
the
world
does,
I
think
one
day
and
that's
what
I'm
my
biggest
passion
is.
Is
that
the
whole
world
gets
to
this
point
of
being
a
creative
worker
knowledge
worker?
But
I'm
not
I'm
not
ignorant
that
there
is
people
that
are
still
physical
laborers,
even
though
I
think
time
off
still
applies
to
them,
but
in
in
the
way
we've
been
talking
about
things
today.
It's
really
about
creative
workers
and
knowledge
workers,
and
we
follow
an
equation.
B
Thankfully,
of
quality
of
input
equals
quality
of
output.
It
is
not
quantity
of
input,
equals
quality
of
output
and
that's
something
as
a
culture.
We've
had
to
start
to
unlearn,
because
that
was
birthed
at
the
beginning
of
the
industrial
age,
where
each
one
of
us
was
literally
a
machine,
whereas
I
think
most
of
us
with
a
technical
savviness
can
say
that
good
luck,
trying
to
outperform
machines
in
highly
repetitive
tasks.
B
Good
luck,
whereas
we
get
to
lean
more
into
being
an
artist
and
a
big
part
of
being
an
artist
is
being
highly
creative
and
a
big
part
of
being
highly
creative
is
detachment
right.
The
the
the
sudden
aha
moment
when
you're
on
a
walk
or
you're
in
the
shower
or
you're,
cooking
dinner
or
you're
playing
tennis.
B
That
is
a
great
activity
that
actually
comes
from
my
new
book
magical
meetings
and
it's
a
framework
that
I
learned
from
different
leadership
and
special
forces
throughout
the
world.
And
it's
this
concept
of
lessons
identified
and
lessons
learned
we're
all
familiar
in
the
software
world.
As
a
you
know,
a
retro,
a
team
retro,
it's
like
that,
but
with
a
little
more
discipline
around
it.
So
a
lesson
identified
is
hey
during
my
time
off
for
my
detachment.
B
I
just
had
this
epiphany
that
this
thing
we
were
doing
was
kind
of
stupid
or
like
we
could
have.
We
could
have
done
it
way
better
and,
like
here's,
my
long
list
of
other
lessons,
I've
identified
after
that
last
sprint
after
that
last
push
after
that
last
project.
B
Great
john,
thank
you
so
much
for
that
lessons
identified.
Well,
it's
not
learned
until
the
cultural
software
has
been
updated.
Just
like
a
bug
is
not
learned
until
it's
been
fixed,
and
so
I
use
the
time
off
practices
as
actually
the
upgrade
function
of
working
smarter,
instead
of
harder.
Because
again,
when
we
take
our
time
off,
we
get
epiphanies
of
many
kind,
and
my
favorite
category
is
where
are
there
obvious
areas
of
improvement
now
that
I've
detached
a
little
bit
and
and
and
so
when
we
can
bring
these
up
and
then
workshop?
B
How
do
we
prevent
them?
Moving
forward?
We're
constantly
leveling
up,
and
so
my
vocabulary
is
that
our
intentional
detachment
and
time
off
is
at
the
foundation
of
our
leveling
up
practice
as
a
team
in
a
culture,
and
I
wish
I
could
take
100
full
credit
for
this,
but
it
was
thanks
to
this
is
very
full
circle.
B
My
whole
journey
into
all
of
this
was
because
two
leaders,
my
two
mentors
when
I
was
at
a
venture
capital,
firm,
believed
in
all
this
before
this
book
was
written
and
I
was
the
furthest
from
believing
in
it
and
they're
like
if
you're
gonna
work
here.
We're
gonna
take
our
intentional
time
off
very
serious
because
we
see
it
as
a
way
to
constantly
improve
and
stay
interesting,
and
I
could
either
follow
suit
or
I
could
leave.
B
And
so
I
followed
suit
and
it
changed
my
life
and
so
thanks
to
managers
and
leaders
giving
permission
and
seeing
the
value
in
it
outside
of
just
preventing
burnout,
but
actually
seeing
it
as
a.
This
is
how
we
invest
in
our
ongoing
improvement
and
upgrading,
and
so
that
changed
my
life.
And
so
I
like
to
talk
about
this
as
much
as
possible
because
I
think
elements
of
it
are
applicable
to
any
team.
A
So
we're
at
about
half
past
the
hour,
so
I'm
gonna
open
it
up
for
an
ama
format
now.
So,
if
there's
anyone
that
has
any
questions,
I'm
just
scrolling
over
to
the
doc,
I
don't
see
any
questions
added
in
there
yet.
But
I
want
to
give
anyone
on
the
call
a
chance
to
vocalize
one
if
they've,
if
they
have
one
for
john.
E
Ask
I'll
ask
a
question
as
I'm
typing
it,
john
thanks
for
thanks
for
coming
in
and
talking
to
us
two
things
number
one.
I
love
your
hat
and
your
hats.
E
You
can
rock
it,
it
looks
really
good.
Thank
you,
but
two,
you
know
what
are
what
are
some.
You
know
I
to
samantha's
point
earlier
about
you
know
being
in
a
remote
environment.
E
B
I'll
I'll
start
answering
this,
but
if
anyone
else
has
their
own
intuitions,
that
they've
observed
please
post
those
in
the
chat,
because
I'm
learning
about
this,
our
team
is
actually
building
out
a
piece
of
software.
It's
like
a
time
off
recommendation
engine
essentially-
and
this
is
a
huge
component
of
like
training
our
model
to
look
for
certain
things.
B
Of
course
you
can't
model
on
everything,
but
I
think
there
are
some
things
so
again,
if
you,
if
you
have
your
own
answer
to
that,
please
post
in
the
chat,
because
I'd
like
to
learn
from
you,
I
look
at
things
like
frantic
communication
that
could
be
verbal
or
you
know,
on
a
call
on
a
workshop,
but
also
in
in
whatever
text
based
communication.
B
I
I've
just
noticed
that,
and
maybe
this
is
just
more
of
an
intuition
thing.
My
co-founder
max,
who
has
a
deep
background
in
machine
learning,
is
trying
to
really
understand
this
deeply.
B
B
Do
we
have
those
actually
documented
of
our
like
significant
milestones,
because
milestones
are
actually
a
great
signal
of
when
time
off
actually
makes
sense.
We
don't
want
time
off
to
be
disruptive
to
the
project
or
the
business.
So
therefore,
we
have
to
time
it
and
and
and
so
working
with
the
team
on
when
was
the
last
project
milestone.
Has
there
been
a
checkpoint?
Has
there
been
an
exhale?
How
long
has
it
been
since
this
person
has
exhaled
and
so
that
that
sort
of
higher
altitude
analysis
is
really
helpful?
B
And
if
you
don't
have
the
data
to
do
the
analysis?
Well,
I
think
that's
a
great
leadership
project
to
try
to
get
a
little
bit
of
measurement
there
that's
one
area
and
then
the
the
last
is
through
some
of
those
workshop
ideas.
I
had.
I
think
you
when
you've
got
a
team
together
and
you
specifically
go
with
that
second
option
of
what
energizes
you,
what
drains
you
specifically
pay
attention
to
the
drain
list
of
each
person
and
let's
say
let's
say
one
of
my
drains-
is
slack
messaging.
B
Let's
just
say
that's
on
my
on
my
list
and
you're
aware
that
I've
been
doing
a
lot
of
slack
messaging.
It's
like
interesting.
Well,
I
could
make
an
argument
that
john's
probably
feeling
pretty
drained
right,
whereas
someone
else
may
say
meetings
like
facilitating
meetings,
just
really
drains
me.
Yet
they
were
put
into
a
position
to
like
constantly
facilitate
meetings.
Well,
there
you
go,
there's
going
to
be.
You
know
a
significant,
that's
a
that's
a
signal
there.
B
So
these
exercises
aside
from
team
building,
I
think,
can
give
you
some
some
qualitative
data
to
really
think
about
where
someone's
at
and
so
yeah.
That's
a
great
question,
josh
again
anyone
else
if
you,
if
you
have
recommendations
of
what
burnout
looks
like
please
post
them,
it's
a
really
important
topic
that
I'm
deeply
studying.
At
the
moment,
myself.
B
B
There's
also
thank
you
josh,
I
think.
Maybe
you
pointed
me
to
this
or
it
was.
It
was
recommended
in
in
your
company
documentation,
there's
an
organization,
I
think
it's
called
burnout
index.
It
was
a
kind
of
open
source
initiative,
very
noble,
and
I
think
it
has
different
tools
that
one
can
use
in
taxonomy.
A
C
C
B
I
mean
yeah
great
question.
I
I
think
I
have
a
contrarian
point
of
view
on
on
this
and
it's
not
just
with
burnout.
It
could
be
all
other
potential
emotional
states
that
someone
is
feeling
I
think,
rather
than
being
prescriptive,
it's
being
curious
and
so
leveraging
questions
are
a
great
way.
So
asking
things
like
hey,
I
was
wondering
you
know:
how's
your
energy
level.
Are
you
feeling
feeling
good
feeling
full
of
enthusiasm?
Are
you
trending
towards
burnout?
B
Are
you
trending
towards
exhaustion
like
where
you
at
I'm
just
trying
to
check
your
energy
level?
Here's
where
I'm
at
curious,
where
you're
at
and
then
you
know
from
there.
Let's
say
the
person
is
like
yeah,
I'm
I'm
definitely
feeling
overwhelmed,
but
you
know
we
have
these
deadlines
etc,
and
you
know
here's
my
reasoning
of
pushing
pushing
through,
but
I
am
definitely
feeling
overwhelmed
at
times.
Oh
great,
well,
thank
you
so
much
for
for
bringing
that
up.
When
was
the
last
time
you
you
took
a
break
or
took
a
pause.
B
You
know
again
through
through
this
sort
of
documentary
and
question.
Asking,
I
think,
is
a
is
a
great
way
with
any
topic
to
feel
less
pushy
and
more
just
like
hey,
I'm
really
just
trying
to
look
out
for
your
best
interest
in
our
best
interest.
So
I
tend
to
default
to
questions
invitations
as
well,
which
I
think
is
another
form
of
question
but
great
point.
Sean.
A
F
Yeah,
I
can
verbalize
fall,
I'm
typing,
so
this
doesn't
apply
to
gitlab,
I'm
still
pretty
new
here,
but
it
really
seems
like
we
do
a
great
job
of
leadership:
modeling
healthy
time-off
behavior,
but
at
one
of
my
previous
organizations
it
was
really
like
a
workaholic
culture.
F
So
I
was
wondering
if
you
have
any
tips
on
how
to
manage
up
on
this
and
help
leadership,
understand
that
value,
because
I
think
what
I
found
as
a
manager
in
that
organization
was,
it
was
really
hard
to
break
the
chain.
Like
my
boss
was
a
workaholic
and
my
boss's
boss
was
a
workaholic
and
you
could
I
mean
I
was
encouraging
my
team
to
take
time
off
like
on
a
regular
basis,
especially
during
pandemic,
but
it
was
just
really
hard
to.
F
Without
feeling
slightly
guilty,
so
I
feel
lucky
to
be
at
git
lab
now,
where
I
just
feel
like
it's
so
much
healthier
but
wondering
if
you
have
any
tips
on
that
situation.
B
Yeah,
I
don't
know
if
I
have
as
many
tips
as
I
have
this
deep
compassion
like
I've.
B
Yeah,
it's
it's
the
I
appreciate
there
is
this
there's
this
book
I
read.
I
think
it
was
written
by
navy
seal
called
extreme
ownership
and
choco
willing,
I
think,
was
the
author
and
leif
babin,
but
it's
pretty
intense,
but
I
think
there's
a
lot
of
wisdom
in
there.
B
I
don't
think
the
books
for
everyone,
it's
very
military,
but
I
think
there's
some
nuggets
of
wisdom
and-
and
they
talk
a
lot
about
this
concept
of
what,
if
you're,
somewhere
in
the
middle,
it's
like
you
do
have
influence,
but
it's
like
not
the
grandiose
influence
and
and
their
whole
mentality
very
navy
seal.
Like
is
even
though
it's
a
frustrating
tough
situation.
B
I
can
offer
permission
to
and
without
being
in
it
there's
a
risk
there
right
if
you're
going
to
go
counter
to
those
above,
you
there's
a
risk,
but
I
think
at
the
end
of
the
day,
you
can
either
try
to
create
change
or
you
need
to
leave
because
not
doing
anything
about
it's
going
to
lead
to
a
deep
amount
of
resentment,
and
that's
not
good,
and
so
I,
like
the
ideas
of
just
locally
in
your
own
squad.
B
Can
you
build
your
own
little
mini
culture
and
and
start
modeling
it
and
show
that
taking
time
off
serious
as
serious
as
our
quality
work
we're
able
to
not
only
still
perform
but
we're
you
know.
B
You
can
hopefully
prove
this
hypothesis
of
increasing
enthusiasm,
increasing
creativity,
which
then
increases
quality
of
input,
quality
ideas,
and
hopefully
you
can
just
show
that
you
could
be
highly
successful
and
unique,
and
then,
when
people
then
start
asking
you
about
it,
even
though
they
might
be
coming
from
a
workaholic
way
of
just
asking
you
about
the
business
and
asking
about
the
project,
you
could
just
be
like.
Maybe
there's
a
little
window
in
there
to
say,
yeah.
Well
that
that
idea
actually
came
to
christine
when
she
was
taking.
B
You
know
a
two-day
break
that
we,
you
know
intentionally
set
in
addition
to
just
weekends,
because
we
wrapped
up
a
project
and
we
thought
before
spinning
up
another
one.
A
moment
of
detachment
was
strategic
and
in
fact
it
was
right,
and
so
without
you,
you
can
kind
of
it's
like
the
black
belt.
Judo
move
like
through
quality
of
work,
you're
able
to
then
hopefully,
maybe
get
people
asking
you
questions
and
then
then
you
can
suddenly
promote.
Oh
well,
it's
because
of
this.
B
F
B
Helpful
yeah
yeah.
Thank
you
amazing
question.
I
I
we
get
it
all
the
time
and
at
the
same
time,
I'll
just
say
like
sometimes
some
cultures
just
aren't
going
to
be
for
you
and
that's
a
that's.
A
heroic
thing
you
have
to
you
know,
make
make
a
move
on.
So
thank
you
for
surviving
that
christine
I'm.
C
D
And
when
christine
was
speaking,
I
was
having
flashbacks
from
previous
experiences,
so
I
think
we've
all
you
know.
Most
of
us
have
experienced
some
of
that
burnout
culture
and
hopefully
survived
it
and
are
happier
to
be
where
we
are
today.
Whenever
I
think
about
burnout,
though
I
think
about
this
hero,
culture
and
even
at
places
like
gitlab,
where
our
values
are
really
clear.
D
It's
just
tempting
with
some.
You
know
in
some
pockets
of
groups
of
people
to
start
to
value
the
going
above
and
beyond.
Maybe
it's
working
really
late,
one
night
and
working
a
weekend,
working
all
weekends
and
and
then
celebrating
those
successes
right
until
it
becomes
almost
an
accepted
part
of
how
we
work
and
that
if
you're,
not
one
of
those
people,
you
feel
left
out.
So
I
was
trying
to
figure
out.
D
You
know
how
do
we-
and
I
think
you
touched
on
it
a
lot
in
the
last
part
of
what
you
were
just
talking
about?
How
do
we
make
sure
that
we
balance
those
things,
because
we
do
want
those
people
who
go
above
and
beyond
to
be
recognized
for
what
they
do
and
at
the
same
time,
we
want
to
make
sure
that
it's
accepted
and
understood
that
this
is
not
the
expectation,
and
this
is
not
how
we
work
as
a
general.
Then
we
have
to
protect
that
balance.
Yeah.
B
Totally
I
have
a
this.
This
comes
directly
from
the
book
and
and
throughout
the
book
we
have
different
chapters
on
the
many
forms
of
time
off
and
within
that
we
have
profiles
of
awesome
people.
We
interviewed
and
studied
that
that
are
a
great
case
study
of
that,
and
so
the
one
that
I'm
going
to
bring
up
is.
B
We
did
a
profile
and
we
got
to
interview
ariana
huffington,
who
has
been
really
well
known
in
this
whole
topic
of
rest
and
and
mental
health
and
at
their
company
thrive,
which
is
a
media
company
and
they
offer
products
I
think
as
well.
We
focused
on
a
particular
awesome
practice
they
do
at
their
company.
It's
not.
B
This
is
not
meant
to
be
a
copy
paste
for
you,
julie,
but
a
remixable
component,
so
they
have
a
concept
that
is
separate
from
vacation,
separate
from
sick
leave
and
it's
its
own
thing
called
thrive
time
and
thrive
time.
Is
there
they're
a
startup?
They
also
have
aggressive
deadlines.
You
know
as
a
startup,
the
whole
market
is
against
you.
You
definitely
have
to
swim
upstream.
There's
no
doubt
in
that
and
we
all
have
to
take
our
shifts
and
that
for
valiant
efforts,
but
they
say
valiant
efforts
should
be
followed
by
the
valiant
rest.
B
B
They
track
these
things
and
there
is
a
direct
exhale
planned
accordingly
and
that's
that
it's
that's
just
how
they
work,
because
they
made
that
a
cultural
element,
and
so
we've
actually
helped
a
lot
of
companies
and
teams
come
up
with
their
own
version
of
of
thrive
time
and
it's
at
the
heart
of
the
software
we're
building.
Because
again,
I
think
it's
awesome
when
we
suddenly
have
that
short
burst
of
of
intent
and
action.
I
think
it's
awesome.
B
Athletes
do
the
same,
but
their
coaches
make
sure
decompression,
because
you
can't
be
sprinting
all
the
time
so
that
that's
the
story
I
just
wanted
to
tell
so
maybe
there's
something
remixable
there
of
coming
up
with
gitlab
coming
up
with
their
own
version
of
thrive
time.
So
it
you
know,
it's
it's
a
good
incentive
model
right.
It's
like
you.
You
know
that
after
this
valiant
effort,
you're
going
to
get
some
decompression
not
only
for
energy's
sake,
but
it's
again
to
my
points
earlier
awesome.
B
We
we
shipped
the
thing
we
worked
hard
on,
that
let's
actually
detach
a
little
bit
and
then
have
a
retro
right
now
that
you've
detached
a
little
bit,
you
can
reflect
on
that
push
just
like
an
athlete,
watches
tape
or
they
look
at
their
training
logs
and
then
and
then
think
about.
Okay,
the
next
push:
how
can
we
do
it
even
better
and
smarter
amazing
question?
Thank
you.
G
I
think
I'm
next
hey
john.
B
G
The
the
shifts-
and
that's
the
word
I
use
so
the
shift
to
noble
time
off
and
then
the
shift
back
into
work
feels
at
times
a
little
bit
like
you
need
to
get
over
the
hump
to
hand
everything
off.
Then
you
need
to
actually
enjoy
the
time
off
or
away
or
vacation
and
then
knowing
when
you
walk
back
in
you've,
got
a
similar
hill,
slash,
mountain
or
berm
to
climb
over
and
I'm
thinking
about
what
the
ways
are
to
help.
The
team
that
I
support.
E
G
Walk
back
in
and
you
have
blue
monday,
but
it's
amplified
yeah
and
maybe
ways
to
cut
down.
B
Rest
ethic
phases
it's
you're
you're
on,
and
then
you
spend
a
very
little
bit
of
time,
letting
others
know
that
you're
off
then
you're
off,
and
then
you
have
some
kind
of
responder
or
something
during
that,
and
then
to
your
point,
it's
not
only
back,
but
it's
like
walking
into
the
gym.
The
the
treadmill
is
at
incline,
40
and
speed,
30
and
you're
just
expected
to
just
boom
right
right
back
on,
and
so
our
our
model
adds
more
granularity
in
detail
around
this
practice,
and
so
there's
not
only
time
on
but
there's
proper
preparation.
B
This
is
cool
for
two
reasons:
one
you're
able
to
truly
be
off
when
you're
off
and
not
have
that
guilt,
and
then
someone
doing
small
components
of
your
role.
I
think
lead
to
the
greatest
lessons
identified,
because
someone
doing
something
through
documentation
will
spot
just
like
an
engineer
spots
through
documentation.
Hey
this.
Wasn't
that
clear
I
actually
got
confused.
I
think
we
should
make
it
better
by
adding
these
details.
Wow
wow
tim.
Thank
you
so
much
for
spotting
that
we
should
update
the
protocol.
B
We
should
update
the
way
we
do
things
and
so
that
that's
that's
in
the
leading
up
to
time
off
practice.
B
That's
super
important,
then,
when
we
actually
took
inspiration
from
all
of
the
research
being
done
in
psychedelic
medicine
kind
of
kind
of
relevant,
to
your
background,
so
so
hear
me
out
on
this
I
mean
there's
actually
a
bunch
of
amazing
work
happening
in
mental
health
therapy,
around
psychedelic
therapy
treated
in
a
very
professional
way,
and
and
when
we
interviewed
these
people
that
do
these
experiences
for
people
to
to
get
over
trauma
and
to
help
them
do
things.
You
know
they
give
them
substances.
They
have
this
experience.
B
They
say
the
the
blast
off
into
tim's
background
land
is
not
the
most
important
thing,
but
the
media
makes
it
seem
like.
So.
The
most
important
thing
is
what
those
therapists
would
call
the
reintegration,
the
reincorporation
of
what
just
happened.
We
we
take
that
and
we
remixed
it
into
this
model
of
time
off
to
where
is
it
a
half
day?
Is
it
a
one
day
up
to
you,
but
having
a
a
integration
period
where
that
person
or
people
that
just
had
their
detachment
can
actually
talk
about
it
to
everyone
else?
Hey,
hey
tim.
B
B
Oh
yeah,
I
like
I
did
this
awesome
stuff
and
I
I
really
got
to
relax,
and
you
know
I
had
some
epiphanies
and
here
they
are
and
here's
my
clarity
on
that
and
yeah,
so
bring
me
up
to
speed
on
what
y'all
did
and
whatnot
and-
and
so
there's
this
like
moment
of
integrating
this
oscillation
that
that
occurred,
and
this
can
this
can
be
through
workshops
or
one-on-ones.
You
know
it's
going
to
look
different
for
each
team,
but
again
when
I
think
about
the
proper
delegation
and
the
proper
reintegration.
B
A
In
the
note
stock
for
anyone
who
wants
to
check
this
out,
I
actually
shared
the
recording
with
john
last
week,
but
myself
and
darren
and
taylor
from
the
product
team,
jc
josh.
We
all
met
with
sid
last
week.
A
We
do
these
things
called
handbook
learning
sessions
and
we
talk
through
some
concept
of
learning,
that's
documented
in
the
handbook,
with
sid
and
last
week
we
talked
about
mental
wellness,
and
one
of
the
questions
that
we
discussed
in
the
recording
was
how
to
transition
from
time
off
to
you
know
reap
the
benefits
of
that
rest
without
feeling
like
you
are
digging
yourself
out
from
a
mountain
when
you
come
back,
and
so
I
linked
the
recording
in
the
doc,
but
one
that
is
just
you
know
top
of
mind
that
I
remember
that
darren,
shared
and
really
kind
of
goes
along.
A
What
you
were
just
saying,
john,
is
that
darren
will
you
know,
he's
going
away
for
seven
days
he
puts
in
for
eight,
and
he
has
a
day
that
he's
out,
and
so
he
has
no
meetings
and
no
one
is
reaching
out
to
him
because
he's
not
online,
but
he
has
time
to
catch
up
and
do
what
he
needs
to
do.
A
A
B
A
Great
well,
I
want
to
respect
our
time
and
recognize
that
we
are
just
at
times.
So.
Thank
you
so
much
john
for
joining
us.
If
you
all
on
the
call
think
of
a
question
that
you
want
john
to
answer
later
or
you
want
to
attend
another
session
later
on
we're
having
another
session
with
john
in
a
few
hours,
and
that
should
be
on
the
get
lab
team
meetings
calendar.