GitLab Meet the Tanukis, 12 Apr 2022

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From YouTube: Meet The Tanukis1.8: Jessica Reeder

Description

In this episode of Meet the Tanukis, we talk to Jessica Reeder, Senior All Remote Campaign Manager! We talk about non-traditional backgrounds, Burning Man, and finding yourself.

2022 All Remote playbook! - https://allremote.info
https://www.jessicareeder.com
https://about.gitlab.com/handbook/marketing/readmes/jessicareeder/

1:56 - Pj!
3:47 - Jessica Reeder!
4:32 - Tell us about yourself!
6:04 - Majoring in Linguistics - a non-traditional background
7:31 - Did Linguistics help you in your current career?
9:40 - Remote work at GitLab
12:12 - How to do Remote work? How Jessica helps remote at GitLab
15:16 - Remote work advice
17:46 - Pandemic remote work is not remote work
19:25 - Starting as secretary, ending up at GitLab
23:30 - Hustle/grind culture vs working hard
26:45 - Jessica works for Burning Man
30:30 - Trailblazer! "I seem to glom onto the next big thing"
33:23 - individual companies and people choose what's best for them
35:00 - "I don't like to just go to parties, I want to be the one throwing the party"
38:26 - From Burning man to GitLab
41:30 - When the job description is perfect – Pj's story
43:56 - "I felt seen"
44:58 - Values in job selection
46:36 - ALL CAPS CHANNEL IN GITLAB SLACK
51:10 - Real Life all caps interview section: WE SCREAM AT EACH OTHER FOR A FEW MINUTES
53:16 - Advice to former self
54:44 - Thanks, goodbye, fun show ending!
55:35 - Outro

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That's a long fade out on that video. It hits this big hit at the end.

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And it's like three seconds of silence. I ought to fix that someone should do something about that.

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Welcome to meet the tanukis, my name is pj metz, I'm an education evangelist at gitlab.

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And this is a show all about other team members at get lab. You all see me on this.

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Channel uh frequently, usually I'm writing python code, but more frequently than that.

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I'm upset because my python code isn't working and that's how you usually see me is with this like.

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Upsetting spaghetti face and I'm drinking like a like a mountain, dew kickstart and I'm looking all.

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Like regretful and sad about the amount of work that I have done, that's not being productive in.

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The code, why doesn't the code work, but this show's not about me, uh despite how much my background.

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Tries to make it about me, this show is about other team members at gitlab and gitlab. Is this.

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Fantastic company that I work for full disclosure. I work for gitlab um as if that wasn't obvious.

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And we are here because we're talking to other team members, we've done people like john coughlin.

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Before we've talked to brendan o'leary people on the community relations team, we've talked to wayne.

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Haber, a director of engineering and today, I'm very excited because the person that we have today.

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Is a is a person that is first off, I see them all the time I am always in a zoom with them or.

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In a slack channel with them we're going to talk about our favorite slack channel today, it's going.

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To be great- and I am always seeing them around and they make me immensely happy and their work.

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Is immensely important to what we do at gitlab so since this show's not about me and manual cookie.

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You are absolutely right to woohoo right now. Let's continue the woohooing. Thank you very much.

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For being on the show, please everybody welcome jessica, reader, hey everybody, hello, nice to see you.

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Thanks for having me today, thanks for the great intro appreciate it.

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I do my best, I uh would you believe I made all of that up on the spot and didn't have a script off.

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To the side that I read very smooth very smoothly, yes, you can't even tell see sugar overflow gets it.

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Lots of woohoos out there- hey sugar, that's right! Oh sugar, overflow! So glad to see you in my chat.

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So listen, I know who you are. I know what your title is. I know what your deal is, but jessica.

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The people at home- they don't know, and they need to know so what I'm gonna do is I'm gonna click.

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This cool button and you're going to tell us all about yourself and why you're here and all that.

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Good stuff, so take it away, tell us all about you. uh My name is jessica reader. If you can't read the.

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Screen, I am on the all remote thought: leadership team at git lab, which is a dream job for me. So.

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What I get to do is spend all of my time thinking about how to do remote work well and how to get.

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The word out about remote work: how to make genes happier how to make the work better. All of that.

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My pronouns are she or they, so you can use she her or they them when referring to me either is fine.

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uh And I am it's been a dream for me to do this work at gitlab. I'm super excited about it.

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I love working with pj all the time. That's been a wonderful part of it. Absolutely echo everything.

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That you said- and I love the whole team- it's a really exciting and fun place to work, but.

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um One thing that I wanted to sort of get into today is that I have sort of a non-traditional.

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Background and for a lot of people in tech- that's not something you see as often or necessarily.

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Know about so I wanted to come and talk about that a little bit today. That's fantastic and.

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I too am of the non-traditional background and actually, uh when we were talking before the show.

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uh You told me what your major was and um my major was english, so I ended up with a ba in english and.

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Avenue, q musical about puppets has a famous song called. What do you do with a ba in english, and I.

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Actually remember a time I worked at tgi fridays. At the time my manager said: oh you're, majoring.

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In english, so you'll probably be a manager. Next to me in the future I was like. Is that what I do.

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I'm going to manage a tgi fridays uh jessica when you have a similar major. What's your major and how.

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How did it lead you to where you are? My major is linguistics, so that's the theory and the science.

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Of language- and I got really into it- it's like how do you deconstruct language? How does language work.

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On a theoretical level: well guess what there's not a lot of work in that field? There's more now than.

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There used to be, but at the time it was very much like okay, great you love linguistics, so you can.

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Be a professor in linguistics or you can go, be a secretary in an office which is what I decided to.

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Do so you were majoring in linguistics and it's always like, I feel, like the the people that are.

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Around our age that were growing up, it was always you're going to college major in something you.

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Love and then we did and then they were like all right now. You don't have a job and I was like, but.

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You told you said: oh, you know what, though I don't regret it. I don't regret it for a second like I.

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I knew going into college that I wanted to study language, I'm so glad that I did. I had an amazing.

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Experience- and I think really, I just wasn't ready to decide what career I should have yet and so.

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Studying something that I loved at least meant that I would show up to classes, and I would do.

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Well and I'd be passionate about learning, which at the time was you know that was pretty good for me.

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Yeah, no sometimes it was a coin flip, whether I actually wanted to do any of the school work. I.

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Was assigned because it all was based on whether I liked the class or not um yeah,.

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Yeah so yeah, it's it's majoring! In what you love and even though, like you said, there was.

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Like either continue in academia or go be a secretary, even then I I would bet I would.

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Bet money right now and I didn't talk to you about this foreign. I bet that your linguistic background.

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Has somehow been a benefit or boon to you in your career as you move forward in life, so it totally.

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Has yeah no you're totally right um yeah? I I would not have been able to predict at that time that I.

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Would be working on a global distributed team and working with people all over the world and.

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Be able to communicate better because I understand a little bit about language and I speak a little.

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Bit of several languages- and so I know a little bit about grammar and I know how to communicate.

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Clearly, which has actually been a huge strength so now I work with people from all over the world.

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And I feel like I'm more able to adjust the way that I speak, which I think is a very essential.

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Skill for working on a global team to not just assume that people understand all of the cliches.

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And the idioms and whatnot that you use, but instead try to figure out. How do I express.

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Myself, clearly in a way that anyone can understand it, so that's been great and then also, I think, just.

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Understanding communication in general, like understanding language, how a language signal.

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Is received and perceived different ways that things come across across different cultures,.

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And across different really grammar backgrounds, all of that has made me more skilled in talking.

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To people and communicating and in writing, which is what I spent a lot of my career doing so far.

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It's really easy in a and we're going to talk about this globally distributed amazing, fully.

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Remote company we work for in a second, but it's very easy in communication, when you are.

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Working mostly asynchronously, mostly uh completely apart from other people,.

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It's easy to have communication breakdowns because people aren't being conscientious of the way.

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They're using language- and I love that actually at gitlab there have been several speakers that have.

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Come to talk to us about the importance of how we use written language and how we communicate.

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And the importance of communicating effectively, so you say globally, distributed fully remote of what.

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Does that mean? How did you help build that at get lab like when, when we say gitlab is fully remote.

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Globally distributed, what do they mean by that? Well, I'm not going to take credit for building it.

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But it was you, it was on you. I love it. Thank you. Thank you very much.

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um Yeah so so gitlab itself is a team of uh you know over 1300 people in 65 plus countries, and so.

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Yes, we work and communicate with each other in english, but of course everyone has a different.

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Background and different place, they're coming from with that, uh and everybody works asynchronously.

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Which pj mentioned, and that means that we're all on different time zones and we're mostly.

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Communicating through messages that someone will read later so there's a whole lot of nuance.

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That you need to get into when you're working. In that way, you need to really.

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Think ahead about what is someone going to need in order to actually read and understand this.

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Message and then actually do something with it. So there's a lot that goes along with that. I find it.

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Extremely challenging and extremely rewarding, and I find that it's a learning environment for me.

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Where I'm always trying to figure something out new that I have haven't experienced before.

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I love the idea that it's it's a place where we we come to learn and a place where we all have.

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The expectation that we're encountering something new and challenging and we're gonna have to find a.

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Way to work through that as a team, like that's one of the things I love about gitlab, is, I always feel.

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uh Challenged but not overly burdened in the challenge like there are expectations.

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Of me, but like it's easy to kind of rise to those expectations yeah, you know if you're, not learning.

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At your job, then, you might want to find one where you are like. We should always be developing and.

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Always challenging ourselves and always putting ourselves just a little bit outside of our comfort.

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Zone because that's how you grow as a person and if you're not growing as a person, then why bother.

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One of the first stickers I put on my on my gitlab laptop well, I bought a cover for the.

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Laptop first because I felt weird about putting a sticker directly on it, but the first sticker.

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I put on it was a hello sticker like from when we used to like see people in person.

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Hello, I'm still learning is what it says, and I think that's really important that everyone.

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Acknowledges that they're learning no one's an expert, no one's perfect. You know what I mean.

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Absolutely absolutely so, as an all remote senior campaign manager. uh What are some of the ways that.

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uh You and your team help get lab work remotely because, as I understand it, get lab's kind of a.

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Leader in this now granted, I work at get my so I'm just tooting my own horn here. But what is it about.

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Remote work that people find sort of uh difficult and how is gitlab doing it really well, what is.

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Some advice, maybe that you have yeah, so I want to first of all um put it out there that I.

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You know I'm not I'm a remote work expert, but a lot of people at gitlab are experts in remote.

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Work and this team has been built. Iteratively people have iterated on the processes over time.

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In order to make it really really really good, so I entered march 2020 basically day, one of the.

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Pandemic so it's been quite quite a ride and my role is actually not just to make sure that remote.

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Work is done well, but to get the word out right, so I came in to a fully formed team that already had.

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Super strong processes, the way that people do that at get lab is what's really extraordinary.

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Everything is always in draft. Things are always being worked on, they're, always being improved and.

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Anyone on the team is allowed to have feedback and input. So if something's not working you'll.

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Actually hear about it, instead of never ever hearing it and something just continuing to.

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Be wrong, so that is absolutely amazing. What my team does is we work somewhat internally.

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So we're trying to reinforce processes remind people hey. You know. This handbook page exists.

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You should go check it out and then we also work with other companies. We do a lot of external work.

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Especially since the pandemic, a lot of people have been coming to gitlab, to say.

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You know give us your remote playbook, which we have by the way the remote playbook and.

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You can download it for free, it's how we run the entire company and it links out to a ton.

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More supplemental information throughout our website, but um companies are looking for that.

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They're looking for specific questions that we can answer for them about, you know what am I, how do I.

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Transition to remote really quickly was a big one in early 2020, and now it's a little bit more like.

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How do I build a culture? That's going to last. How do I make sure that people are connecting.

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With each other, when we never see each other in person, how do we do this across camera and that.

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Is something that gitlab is a completely expert at which I love we'd really do that pretty well.

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Yeah, as I understand it, if I'm listening to a lot of ceos on twitter, actually I should be.

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Working in an office- and it would be way better for me um yeah. They also think that it's weird.

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There's a I mean, obviously I have my my bubble of remote people and really in.

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In my uh my career as an education, evangelist which is kind of a subset of developer relations,.

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Almost every devrel, I know tends to be like a remote worker um but they're, not necessarily.

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At a company that does full remote, which one of the things that makes gitlab stand out is full.

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Remote top to bottom no office to like check into, and it's really unique and it's really exciting.

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So when you talk about your job is to sort of do this internal, but also that external get the word.

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Out and talk to other companies um what it uh this question is like sort of half formed in my head.

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What's how about what's what's the best remote work advice you have for a company.

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Who's thinking about going remote, why? Why should they go remote, so this is actually when we get a.

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Lot um so let me step back just for a second and say that you said something really cool and really.

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Important and that's been crucial for me, which is that a lot of people um in the even up to the.

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Past couple of years, some people on the team have been remote, but the company itself is not remote.

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And it was really only a couple years ago that that started to change on a significant level.

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Which is when I came back into from the freelance world into full-time work when I.

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Could finally have a remote job at a remote company, so I just want to call that out as.

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Amazing and uh congratulations to everybody who is working to build a better remote team.

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We're all like this is the leading edge here, yeah, we're figuring it out. So yes, okay to your question,.

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uh You asked what's the first thing that a company should do when they're going remote.

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And this is our number one answer and it's very unpopular depending on who we're talking to.

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This is kind of a popular answer. We advise that all of the executives need to start working.

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Remotely first before the rest of the company- and they do not want to do that- some of them do that's.

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That's the stereotype, but uh generally we have had a lot of pushback to that right because you know.

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Executives are super busy and they really want someone to work out some of the processes before.

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They have to do this in real time, but the best way to actually do it is for the executives to figure.

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It out amongst themselves, and then that sets the tone and it sort of says, to the company. Okay, we're.

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Taking this seriously and everyone is really going to be remote, including the people at the very top.

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Yeah and that's very much like that top-down leadership of like hey we're going fully remote.

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uh But the e.t we're gonna, actually we're gonna stay in an office, but y'all can go be remote and.

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I feel like nothing really works better to know how something works than actually doing it. You.

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Know right, so that's it's very hard. I imagine because I think a lot of uh executive teams, time.

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Is spent sort of moving quickly from one thing to another and that face-to-face time can be.

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Very important and valuable so then it's like they don't know how to replace that, because it's not a.

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Concept that they've had to think about before or something they've had to really consider.

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um Man pandemic really, and I know I think I know your opinion is the same thing as mine.

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Is pandemic remote work is not remote work. It's not it's not at all room at work. um We have all.

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Been through it and and not just talking about having to transition to working from home and.

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Having your kids at home and everything at home and not being able to go to the store beyond that.

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We've all been through it this past couple of years, people have lost people, we've been stressed.

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A lot of things have been happening in the world. This is not what having a normal day-to-day work.

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Experience should be like for a lot of people, and so, if that's been, your experience understand that.

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It's temporary and I think everyone wants to build something better and more permanent, so yeah when.

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It's done well, uh you know it's like git lab. I showed up for my first day at git lab and all I.

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Had to do was open a computer which had already been shipped to me, and then I received a list of.

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Items that I needed to work through, which was very boring, but it got me set up with all the security.

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That I needed everything that I needed to do my job and all of the systems were in place right and.

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That is something that takes years to build. It doesn't happen overnight, so people are working.

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On it right now at companies everywhere, um and it's going to get better and better all the time.

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Exactly I love that, and you talked to this idea of like being passionate about the work and being.

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Excited about the work and that's something that uh you said uh before the show when we.

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Were talking, that's something you were looking for um when you were starting out after school.

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So we're gonna switch gears a little bit. We're gonna go back to you. Freshly graduated you're.

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Trying to figure out where to go, what to do? You said you started as a secretary. How do you go.

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From secretary to git, lab and working on the all remote team- okay, so I thought about this because.

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We did discuss that. We were going to talk about this and I want to go back even further, because.

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I've been thinking recently about the choices that I've made in my life and how glad I am that I made.

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The choices that I made when I did and there's one specific thing that I feel like if I could.

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Get this across to people who are early career and if you're wondering what should I do, should I get.

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On the hustle train, or should I do something else and the one thing that I really want to say to you.

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Is think about it? You have options and for me I took the other option. I decided not to hustle.

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I made a very, very conscious choice in my 20s and I said you know what you're only 20 once.

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I don't need a lot of money right now. I don't need much. I'm gonna live my life for me. Instead of for.

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My job for now and later I will have a great job. The career is ahead of me, but right now I want to.

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Figure out who I am and what I want from life, so I did and so yeah so going back to the the first.

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Secretary job, so it was at a very formal company and they sat me in the receptionist desk next to.

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A potted plant and I answered the phone and that's all I had to do it was so boring. It was so boring.

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And I just sat there all day, like with people, you know walking back and forth in front of me.

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In their suits and answered the phone, and as I sat there, I started sort of journaling which, at the.

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Time, you know there wasn't anything like a blog, but they were just starting to be one, and so I.

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Started journaling and I started posting it on my personal blog and next thing you know I decided I.

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Was a blogger and I ultimately realized that I had something in me. I realized I could. I could write.

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I liked to write I wanted to write. I realized that tech was doing some really interesting things that.

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I wanted to be a part of I wanted to be out there finding out what was happening.

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And I really really really wanted to decide what I was doing with my time and what I was wearing.

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And how I could express myself, because at the time you know I was learning some things about.

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Myself right, I had a girlfriend for the first time like I didn't understand, really.

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How that fit into the normal way of life? I didn't tell anybody at my job, uh you know and.

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I wanted to figure out: is there a life where I can be me? Where is that? How do I build it?.

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And the hard part of that is finding yourself first in order to be so, it's two steps. It's taking.

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And those two steps are a million steps, so the steps are an epic and the smaller steps.

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Are issues underneath but to find yourself and to understand yourself and to really know.

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Yourself is a lot of work and you need time to do that work beyond that. It's then, okay. I.

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Know myself or I have a better idea of myself: how does that self want to exist in the world.

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And those are two super complicated questions and I can't believe at 20 that you kind of like knew.

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That that was an important decision to make because it 20, I was, I think I was concerned.

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With trying to find a way to make like my chicken ramen stand out a little more and it was a very.

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Different experience for me, but that's that's such an important journey and I love that advice of.

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You can't really, you can't really decide what you want to do until you know who you are better. It's.

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Fantastic yeah, I feel really um fortunate that I had the ability to make a choice like that. You.

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Know that my family supported me, um they were not super pleased because they had paid for college.

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But you know they supported me and- and I feel fortunate that I was lucky and and was able to.

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Find some really cool stuff um and I spent my 20s basically figuring out who I was so that in my 30s.

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I could work with that and build something on that. It's fantastic. I know that one of the things you.

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Said was like, like hustle and like grind and like hustling grime culture is something that's really.

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uh By a lot of younger people, millennials and gen z, we're really starting to look at that and.

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Be like I don't know that that's the way I want to live my life and I think we're realizing that.

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There's a difference between hustle culture and working hard, and those are two different ideas.

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Hustle culture is very much take something you're, passionate about and monetize it. You want to draw.

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Draw and sell it to people. You want to write, write and sell it like it's attaching money and monetary.

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Worth to the things that we do for fun, or if you want to be I've, seen a lot of this um out there.

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Like dancing you gotta work, you gotta be really good. Don't show off yourself dancing online until.

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It's perfect and it looks great, whereas really dance is meant to be an expression of yourself and.

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Your connection to whatever music you're listening to so you don't have to monetize your passions. You.

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Can just have a passion and do it for fun and I think that's hustling and grinding is spending.

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Every second of every day making this this life, like bringing money and like bringing in like.

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Experience and all this great stuff, as opposed to oh, I work hard at work, and I do I work hard.

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But it's I'm not grinding. Does that make sense? Am I being eloquent at all? I don't know.

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Totally yeah and and yes to manual cookie, also normalize being mediocre at your hobbies.

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It's fine, it's totally! Okay, have fun! What, if you just did it for fun, novel idea so yeah? I totally.

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Understand that I actually you know with writing, I absolutely fell into the hustle and grind culture.

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And was selling my writing for years for much less than it was worth, because that was the.

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Market right, and so I'm out of that, I definitely learned from that um it. It's it's very tempting. I.

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Think all of us get drawn into it at one point or another. How am I going to monetize? How am I.

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Going to market myself, how do I brand myself is part of it? You know, but just remember that.

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You know who you are and that's the most important thing it doesn't really matter if other people.

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Know who you are, I love it and if you know who you are well enough, other people won't help but notice.

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As well, and if they don't that's true, who cares it's you, you have you're the one who has to sleep.

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Next to yourself for the rest of your life, you know what that's right. I love that you.

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Mentioned like wearing comfy clothes. Normally, uh when I do meet the tanookies- and I realize this.

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Two minutes into the stream. I was like I'm not wearing a single piece of get my clothing.

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I'm wearing my death metal sailor, moon shirt from a band that I love and a 1990s hat, and I.

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Was like oh no, but then I was like no. This is me, I'm being myself, I get to be myself.

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At gitlab, and that's why I'm here, that's why I work at gitlab is because I get to be myself so.

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Yeah, you know and we've got branding on the on the stream and all that you know I don't really wear.

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Swag too much- um and this is a good segue and the background for that is that when I worked.

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For burning man, they paid us in t-shirts a lot of the time. So I have oh, a closet full of swag.

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That I don't know what to do with and eventually I gave up trying I'm going to just wear, usually.

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A black shirt, that's what I wear so when you were at tell us about burning man. This is a period of.

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Your life that I'm very interested in hearing about tell us about your time with burning man.

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So I had decided I was like yep going to do my own thing going to live my life. I started.

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Freelancing I had been blogging, and the very next thing that happened was that somebody I knew.

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Who knew the ceo of burning man said? You should pitch yourself to burning man. They need a blog.

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So I did- and that was the beginning of a 10-year relationship with burning man, so I became the.

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First, ever blogger, who uh blogged the setup and the teardown of the event and the the playa.

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Restoration, which is an important phase, because it's a leave, no trace event. So um I was basically.

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uh Living in the desert, I was working on the crew all day and then I would blog in the evening, and I.

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Was taking photos and it was great- I mean I had a fantastic time and I felt in that first year.

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Really clear that I had found my place, I found my people, I could be exactly who I was.

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The whole entire time, I could be really proud of my work. I was doing something that nobody had ever.

B

Done before at a company that was really pushing boundaries and I was having an adventure and that.

B

Was amazing and not to mention this is in the desert, which is one of the most beautiful places.

B

In the world, so I was fulfilled on every level and so from there. I stuck around burning man.

B

For 10 years, so I like to say I like to say, I ran away to burning man for a decade.

A

That is an absolute like 90s dream right. It's like yeah! I work for burning man, so I'm always.

A

At burning man and yeah, it's been 10 years. I bet there must have been an insane amount of growth.

A

During your time there, because I burning man, started out as this very.

A

Very niche event- and it is now it's it's ubiquitous with like uh it is it.

A

Is the name as far as like large gatherings in unique places yeah, so I started in 2005.

B

So I was not at the very beginning. Things had already been going for a while. um I had heard.

B

About it, I knew people who had been going since the 90s, but I was way too square for all of that.

B

Not cool enough to try and nobody was inviting me uh but yeah. So between 2005 and 2015 I mean a.

B

Complete sea change and it's continuing to change. That's one of the things about that festival. Is it.

B

Got discovered it got discovered by the tech world around probably 2008, or so you know, people were.

B

Going before them there were celebrities there every single year, uh but the tech world really.

B

Got into it and once that happened there was a lot more money. There was a lot more photography there.

B

Was it was less driven by artists and more driven by event, attendees, which is part of the evolution.

B

That's what happens things change over time and nothing changes more than an arts festival.

A

That's so true, I think that when we talk about um burning man- and we talk.

A

About that idea of being passionate about something and, um like you said 2005, it was.

A

It was not the beginning at all, but it certainly was the beginning of that change and it becoming.

A

A part of a a cultural term in 2005, if you said, burning man to someone absolutely most.

A

People would be like, oh, I maybe have heard of it. Only certain people had really heard of it.

A

And by 2010 it is a thing that everyone knows it's a part of the zeitgeist. It's part of the culture.

A

And you were kind of at the front of that yeah and now here you are at the front of remote work, yeah.

A

I'm just gonna say: you're, a trailblazer jessica. I think you're out there making changes that the.

A

World notices, I am not inventing anything I've I've been thinking about this lately.

B

I'm not inventing anything, but I definitely seem to glom on to the next thing and I'm quite proud.

B

Of that, I think part of that goes back to that decision early on, to take risks and to follow not.

B

Necessarily my heart, but some sort of zeitgeist to follow what I was interested in right and.

B

So I found burning man fascinating. uh I went and yeah at the time when I joined it was like do not.

B

Put on your resume that you work for burning man, it's a career killer, and so I didn't for the first.

B

I didn't even tell my family that I was working there for a while, but I work in desert restoration.

A

Yeah totally I mean I was freelancing, so I had other clients. So I just you know.

B

uh Just didn't tell anyone that I was going to the desert uh for several months.

B

But yeah so over time. Obviously um it became something that I was quite proud of and I.

B

Think that you know the reputation of that event has continued to evolve over time. But.

B

I really believe that I was there at some of the best years. I really do and so then yeah, you know.

B

I was ready to move on and ready to try something new and um the idea of working remotely was for me.

B

Something that I had always believed in I always was like you know I can work remotely. I sit down.

B

I do my work, you know because if I don't get, if I don't work, I don't get paid. So of course I.

B

You know have no problem with the work ethic working remotely and I'm much more comfortable.

B

I get more done, I can focus. I can set my own hours all of these things that we know.

B

But it was very much like no, no, no! No! You cannot get a real job that way you can freelance you.

B

Can come into the office for a meeting, but you can't have a real job this way. That's not a thing.

B

And I just believed that it was and look at it now. Yeah I mean it's becoming the standard and.

A

Even as people are saying, we gotta return to the offices everyone's looking around going.

A

Gas is kind of expensive. I don't think I'm gonna do that, so I'm gonna go find a company.

A

That will let me work remotely, because if you can work remotely and you're still effective,.

A

I'm not sure, there's a reason not to allow at first off at least allow.

A

Your employees to do that second off, set it up so that they can be successful, working remotely.

A

Because it just to me, it just makes sense to have that at least as an option for a variety of like.

A

Literal, like ada reasons, but nevertheless people are out there saying you gotta go.

A

Back to the office- and I can't agree with that- that's no good yeah! I can't really.

B

Agree with it either. I understand that every team is different, and so I do support you know.

B

Individual companies, organizations teams and people deciding what they want and doing what's.

B

Right for them that I support, I think that the people who are really against remote work, you know.

B

They'll be proven wrong in time, but I do think we need to always keep space for people to choose.

B

Exactly what's going to work for them, and that is what's so powerful about this moment- is that now.

B

There are just more options and part of that has to do with tech catching up with people. It also.

B

Just has to do with what we've been through these past couple of years and the fact that you know.

B

We learned that we can actually do this, uh and so it's a big change for everyone and it's gonna.

B

You know the great resignation, the great reshuffle whatever you want to call it. That's really people.

B

Choosing they're saying oh okay: now I have I have options and I understand a little bit more about.

B

What my options are, so I choose option b and you know I think it's really cool. I love to see it.

B

Happening yeah, it's fantastic, it really is so you were so heavily involved in burning man, which is.

A

Essentially, a uh it's: it's helping throw a party uh for a bunch of other people, and I know I've.

A

Always enjoyed like trying to organize a party and trying to set something up for for other people.

A

But almost always uh I end up enjoying uh being at the party more or being at a party more than.

A

Throwing it because I didn't have to worry about the work or setting up food, and this and the other.

A

um 10 years, setting up a party and even at gitlab, creating events for gitlab that helped.

A

Promote remote work, like you told me, and I'm going gonna say the quote, because it's so good.

A

You told me I don't like to just go to a party. I want to be the person throwing it, but why is that.

A

True for you, you'd rather throw the party and stand in the corner and like watch. People like.

B

Well, okay, let me put it this way, no matter what kind of party and whether I'm throwing it or.

B

Not I'm gonna be standing in the corner because I'm a little socially awkward.

B

So, that's actually, why you know I'm not. I don't do this.

B

Because I want to be the host, I'm not one of those people who's like please, you know enjoy.

B

This experience I've created for you and thank you for your guests. Thank you for arriving. Please.

A

Don't find the crew I'm really the person who's in the background, like weirdly picking up trash.

A

Hold on like so in college, you would like you'd be at a party you're. Looking at you're like.

A

Someone's gonna have to help clean up. You just grab a bag and start like cleaning up. No, I mean.

B

In college I was, I was working raves, but yeah even better. This story just got better jessica.

B

Yes in college, I was working raves and then I ended up working burning man. It's just always been.

B

Something that I like to do, um I like people to have a good time. I like to make sure that happens.

B

I like to make sure that it's safe, I like to make sure that it's well organized, um and I you know.

B

I've been around parties long enough that I sort of know how to do that. So yes, it transfers over.

B

To events as well- and I also over time, really learned how to create a little bit of magic.

B

And that is a great skill to have to really understand how to make magic happen in a group.

B

Of people like that's something you learn, and it is extraordinary to be able to do.

A

I love good magic, it's the the sort of just the sparkly vibe, that's in the air, when everything is.

A

Really just meshing well and everyone's happy and enjoying themselves. Oh it's hard to find. Yes,.

B

Yes and that's so beautiful and just looking out at a group of people having a good time.

B

Is rewarding whether or not you were involved in creating it? Actually, I I.

A

Never thought about whether that was true for me, but now I just realized I'd love to watch.

A

Twitch and other people doing things and I love to watch uh lately. I've been watching footage of.

A

Drummond based boiler room sets where, like there's a dj and like a hundred people behind them and.

A

They're, like spinning drum and bass, live, and I just like full screen it on my work. Computer and.

A

Sit at my work desk and go like this so watching other people party is actually great and watching.

A

Other people enjoy themselves is fun yeah, it's actually fantastic. I've been doing it forever.

A

You've convinced me, I'm not gonna go to a festival anymore, I'm just gonna watch it and save a ton of.

A

Money yeah, you know um here's another good story for you by the end of my time at burning man.

B

uh So around 2014 2015 I was living in reno, which is the nearest city to burning man. So.

B

It's like a two-hour drive and, by the end of the event, I would get tired of being hot and dirty.

B

And instead of going to the big finale of watching the man burn, I would go home. Take a shower and.

B

Watch it streaming on the internet, which is how I knew I was done. I was like okay, I'm done that.

A

Does come a point even though you're passionate and excited about um it is? There comes a point.

A

Where you're looking you go, I feel like I've. I've hit a moment here where I'm kind of I'm okay and I.

A

And I can start looking for the next thing: um yeah yeah, so that happened. What what happens between.

A

The end of burning man, you go home, you shower, you watch the man burning, you go. I don't know that.

A

The next event is happening for me and and git lab. When did you start a git lab? Actually, so I started.

B

At get lab in 2020, so there's a five year period there, um and so the biggest thing for me was.

B

Figuring out what to do next, so um I had already before the end of burning man. I had already gotten.

B

Quite successful with my writings, which was my main gig, so I would do burning man three.

B

Months of the year, and then I had the other nine months to fill so the rest of the time I was doing.

B

Writing I was doing marketing and I was working with a lot of different clients and I got into.

B

Ghost writing, which is where you do the writing on behalf of someone which I actually loved, because.

B

What I would get to do is I'd be working with like ceos and thought leaders, and they would be.

B

Just espousing all of their wisdom and they would just say everything they had ever learned.

B

And I would just be cool and I'd write it down, and I got all these amazing life lessons through that.

B

uh And so that was sort of like the transitional phase for me, but writing is a really tough gig.

B

Writing is just hard work right now in our culture, because it's underpaid, and so you.

B

Have to do so much of it and there's really only so much creative juice that you have and.

B

uh Around 2016 to 2017 I thought you know, maybe I'm ready to actually go get a job and I you.

B

Know I miss being in tech. Tech is fun. It was like burning man in the way that it was like innovative.

B

You know creative everything, something's happening all the time. It's always exciting and I thought.

B

You know I want to be, I want to be in that world. I want to go back to that and around 2017 it became.

B

Possible, finally, everything came together and it was possible to have a job fully remotely.

B

At a fully remote company, so that's what I did in 2 2017 uh I joined toptal, which is a global.

B

Freelance network and I was on the community team, so it was amazing. I got to spend all of my time.

B

Talking with all these brilliant professional people from all over the world and connecting.

B

With people it was fantastic and that really proved to me. Okay, this is something I want to do.

B

I want to be in tech, I want to be on a global team. I want to work remotely and I want to do work that.

B

Challenges me and then I found gitlab and it was like all of the bells were ringing. Someone uh on.

B

My on my old team actually said to me jessica. You gotta read this handbook uh because you've got to.

B

Read the values page, because this list of values is what you talk about all the time and I was like.

B

Okay, cool and I read it and then I looked at the jobs page and there was a job about remote work.

B

Spreading the word about remote work I was like, are you kidding me? Are you kidding me? I can't.

A

Even believe that we have the same, get lab origin story where we read a job posting and it felt like.

A

It was written for us unbelievably. Yes, I didn't know that about you. Yes, so um I don't want to get.

A

Too much into my story, but my story was: I was a teacher high school teacher um in 2020. I started.

A

Learning to code, because I had a summer where I couldn't go- get a second job which is teacher.

A

Tradition and I started learning to code, I had a mentor, my friend brandon and then my friend chloe.

A

Came in and mentored me and I ended up applying to a job. I say: yes, they end up rescinding the offer.

A

So then I had already put up my two weeks of school. So then I had, I was unemployed.

A

During that time, all I was looking for was a job I wanted to do. Devrel I was like I'm a teacher. I.

A

Have 10 years experience as a teacher, I'm learning to code, I can talk to people. I know how to teach. I.

A

Know how to present give me a chance, a recruiter, reaches out and says: hey, there's this job at git.

A

Lab called education evangelist and I read it and in every single interview from the sourcing.

A

Interview to every manager I talked to, I said you wrote this job description about me. I'm a.

A

Former teacher, I love making content. I'm coding, I can learn anything just look at me and like it.

A

I the description felt like they were like reading my diary. It was amazing, that's unbelievable. I love.

B

I love that we totally have the same story uh yeah when I was reading that job description. My.

B

Literal reaction was nobody in the world, can do this job better than me, and I.

B

You know I'm not a super confident. I've definitely worked on my confidence, but I've overcome a lot.

B

Of imposter syndrome and through all of the imposter syndrome, I still knew that I was.

B

The best person for the job- and that was such a cool feeling to know that and to just be like.

B

I can't believe it the dream job has arrived. I want that feeling for everybody to to feel.

A

Confident not in a way that other people perceive you as as haughty or cocky or full of yourself.

A

But where people perceive you and look at you and go no they're, absolutely right.

A

They're absolutely right, they're perfect for this particular situation. That's how I feel about when.

A

There's things on a tall shelf and they need me to grab it down because I'm six foot six, because I'm.

B

Trying to be around my house yeah, I have this one shelf anyway um yeah. I was very, very lucky also.

B

That the people who were interviewing I mean that the the interviewing was inclusive.

B

It was thoughtful and I felt like I was able to really express that about myself um and.

B

I really felt seen. I was very surprised that I actually got the job because imposter syndrome.

B

But at the comments at the end, where they really don't made me feel that I had been seen and that.

B

I was appreciated and then I was welcome, and so it was all uh just very exciting. Yeah there's nothing.

A

Better than seeing the values laid out and there's there's even an interview during gitlab, where you.

A

Sort of talk specifically about the values of git lab and which one you like and which one you.

A

And it's it's not a it's, not a culture fit test, because culture fits not a thing. Culture ad.

A

Is better but even at get lab, we try not to talk about culture as much as values, because values can.

A

Be lived up to and culture is very nebulous and sticky and weird, I think, but when you can point.

A

To a specific sub value or value and say this is what we use to guide our decision making. I think.

A

It makes for a really powerful environment to work in it does and those values. Just in general, you.

B

Know I had so much of my previous choices had been very specifically, values based like morals for.

B

Me mean something different from what they mean and you know for other people in other cultures.

B

We all have our own set of morals and for me I really wanted. To be honest. I wanted to be kind. I.

B

Wanted to be transparent, I wanted to be uh always innovating, and all of these things are in the.

B

Values and I wanted to produce results. These are all the values right of on the gitlab handbook, but.

B

You can read that, but it doesn't mean the company actually does it yes, and so for me, it was like.

B

Okay, I'm taking this gamble, they're, saying all the right things, we're gonna see we're just gonna, see.

B

And um at first I have very much had my walls up when I first got to gitlab. You know I had. I had.

B

Had tough experiences in the past, you know I've been I've been through it professionally and so.

B

um My first reaction on getting on the get lab slack was: why is everybody being so fake nice.

B

Only to learn that they were actually being nice what a concept, what a concept everyone.

A

Here is saying: thanks for the question and it just kind of sounds real sarcastic. I'm trying.

B

To figure out what's going on here, no, they mean it like thanks. That is a good question.

A

Thank you for giving me an opportunity to like elucidate on that. You know what I mean yeah. It.

A

Why is everyone being so fake nice, everyone's kind here? What's going on this? Isn't normal.

A

You know, speaking of slack, there's a channel that we're both a part of, and I think it might be, both.

A

Of our favorite channels- and it is which one you're talking about it- is the all caps channel.

A

Why do we love the all caps channels so much okay, so the all caps channel, let's.

B

I mean if it's not clear from the name: let's explain that this is a channel where you are.

B

Only allowed to post in all capital letters, you cannot use lowercase letters and if you.

B

Do you get called out all caps all the time? I love this channel for many reasons,.

B

Number one is that everybody there is super passionate about posting in all caps and they.

B

Do it several times a day and there's long comment, threads and everybody posts in all caps, but then.

B

Number two is just that: it's a place where people go when they need to yell something. Yes, imagine.

B

That just having a little spot, you can go in your company and you can say my cat got lost before.

B

Or whatever people post, 20 different things a day and um it's just a little safe space.

B

For strongly felt emotions- and I kind of just love that it's like it's like twitter, you know if but.

B

Like no politics, nothing, you know it's gonna bother anybody! It's just like remember when we.

B

Used to all just post about what we had for lunch, that's what it is except you're yelling about it.

A

It's fantastic, the most recent post is granola is a lie. Yeah.

B

Exactly you know, I think that um every space that we're in whether it's your company, your job.

B

Or whatever teams that you're on or whatever clubs you're in you need to make space for just.

B

Randomness for funny for that magic that I was talking about when we let loose and just know that.

B

We can sort of vent and release something that's in ourselves and that'll be received and observed.

B

And received kindly then we start to get loose, you know we get comfortable, we have fun and we become.

B

Human with each other, and- and that's I don't ever want to be in a place where I can't be human.

A

It's I just I I constantly, and I have a friend who's like this as well, and he's got like a super.

A

Serious job, but we are both constantly being like. Well, I'm gonna be my sort of like not serious self.

A

Most of the time, until it's time to be serious and like I can be very serious, I can put on the.

A

Stern face, I can get the work done. I can say yes, sir. Yes ma'am yep, I can do this. I can do that, but.

A

Also, I'm gonna have fun with it. I absolutely have to decorate my wall like this. I have to.

B

And what is it my space right exactly and even if I wasn't at get lab like let's say it's five years.

A

Down the road- and I end up leaving for another great opportunity which may happen- I don't know.

A

I might just stay, get live for 30 years too, just stay this. This is gonna stay here, no matter where.

A

I work for the rest of my life because it is a chance to to be myself and having a specific.

A

Slack channel, where you can go be yourself, be immediately accepted unless you're whispering.

A

Then it's it's just it's wonderful! I can't explain how happy I was to find that slack channel.

B

Yeah yeah, it's just. It is really truly important to be able to express yourself.

B

I love your background. I adore your background. I wish I had enough, like design talent, to create.

B

That with so much authority and confidence, I will say that the issue is that it's, it really limits.

A

Where I can put my desk, I actually so I had some friends stay over um a little bit ago, and this is.

A

The guest bedroom um to my right is a bed uh and in order to extend the bed fully, I have to turn.

A

My desk in and put all my stuff away and when the desk was turned, I was like man this really.

A

Opens up the room, I like it a lot and then I was like, but I'll get my corner. So that's what's most.

A

Important and I turned it back- and here I let here I am- is where I live now: yeah, that's a new thing.

B

In life is the zoom background, like oh yeah, your space like this green wall, it's one wall, the other.

B

Walls in this room are beige. I just didn't paint them yet. I just did that. Well, first,.

B

Just that one, because you knew it was gonna, be behind you absolutely yeah, oh good, I'm getting.

A

Spammed, that's fun: oh cool spam yeah, so we so it goes. um I will say we gotta. We.

A

Gotta do an all caps game or something okay. I think we should uh scream uh and all caps are.

A

Let's scream just I'm gonna ask you a question: I'm gonna scream it and you have to answer it.

A

And scream and it's to be all favorites, okay, we're going to do favorite screams! Oh no, wait! Wait! Wait.

B

I don't do favorites, I don't do favorites. I don't like to have favorites how about.

A

What about like a list of like your top three favorite ice creams, I could try, I believe in you.

A

Okay, hit me: okay, what are your top three favorite songs that get you excited to work.

B

Oh, I can't think of any don't worry about them being your favorite. If you pick a song.

A

To get you excited, what's it gonna, be I listen to classical music like a nerd? Yes,.

A

It's always like 88.6 is classical yeah. No, I listened to it on apple music.

B

Classical radio that you heard it here, first, the all caps official music is classical music, get.

A

Your bach get your rock mounted off and get your wagner on apple, music, classical. No, I hate wagner.

A

Wagner is problematic. Actually, I regret saying it.

A

This was a good segment. This is good interneting right now for sure.

A

Yep and because we have limiters on our mics, it doesn't quite hurt anyone's ears.

B

I mean you know we apologize if we hurt your ears with that, but that is absolutely we're.

A

Gonna cut that clip we're gonna put it in the all caps channel and we're gonna be famous.

A

Jessica, we're gonna be famous lab famous, I'm so excited now that we've screamed. um I think it's.

A

Important that we uh we start wrapping up, and I think the best way to wrap up is to come with some.

A

Advice and advice for um how about: let's give our former self advice: let's have you give your.

A

Former self some advice: what have you learned now that you wish you could tell younger you and to be.

A

Honest, I don't know that you I have anything. It sounds like younger. You had everything figured.

A

Out, oh, no, oh! No! No! No! No! Just because I was trying does not mean that I had it figured out.

B

So yeah, if I, if I could talk to my younger self, I would say jessica, you're doing the right thing.

B

And you don't need to lie about it, you don't need to hide who you are? You don't need to try to act.

B

Like you are conforming go ahead on your journey, it will take you to a good place. That's exciting!.

A

And to anyone else out there who is wondering well, am I doing the right thing? What happens if I don't.

A

It's okay to at least at the very least, take the time to think and consider it and to take the time.

A

To to plan out what you're going to do um and to have that opportunity for yourself um jessica, this.

A

Has been one of my favorite things, I've ever done on the internet. This entire show you're one of my.

B

Favorite people I have ever had the pleasure to meet on the internet on the meter next ways.

A

I'm so happy that uh my life brought me to gitlab and I'm so happy that your life brought you to.

A

Gitlab, because uh without those many meandering roads that connected to other paths- and I think we.

A

All know the robert frost poem, I don't know that we would have ended up here and it's fantastic.

B

Yeah, I fully agree. Thank you so much. This is totally fun. We should definitely do it again.

B

Sometime, maybe get sugar overflow on here with us. Listen she's on my list, she's on my list of.

A

People who need to come do this. I'm gonna go ahead totally, watch that it would be good. I'm throwing.

A

Your website, up there jessica, reader.com, oh yeah, and uh on that website I put a little timeline.

B

Of my career, it's right there on the front page, um so yeah enjoy read through it. Fantastic read.

A

About that you can read her read me at the about.gitlab.com and the handbook marketing.

A

Readmes you can read all about what jessica reader is. Does uh if there's any spaces that need to be.

A

Filled in after this episode that will certainly help fill them in jessica, absolute pleasure and.

A

uh Thank you all for tuning in, and I will see you all later. Thank you. Thank you. Everybody thanks, pj.

B