GitLab Meet the Tanukis, 6 May 2022

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From YouTube: Meet the Tanukis 1.9 - Hailey Pobanz

Description

Let's meet Hailey Pobanz, Area Sales Manager - SMB EMEA

1:54 - Welcome!
4:55 - Hailey!
5:45 - Hailey Introduces herself
7:20 - Hailey learning Dutch
8:53 - What brought Hailey to the Netherlands?
11:20 - The journey to becoming a sales engineer
14:00 - The paths/careers we take
15:50 - From startup in the Netherlands to GitLab
19:00 - The excitement of startup work/ sudden news
21:05 - Fired! 😧
23:25 - The ability to work remotely changed my life
25:40 - Pregnant at GitLab and telling the team.
28:23 - Being able to be Authentic at work
30:05 - From Individual Contributor to Manager
32:49 - The “traditional” career ladder and good managers
35:05 - Working in sales as a woman
39:45 - Expected to be a bro / the Cool Girl stereotype
41:15 - Bringing feminine energy to sales
44:00 - Shoutout Mountain Dew.
45:04 - Sales Management as a woman, mentoring, hiring, teaching…
45:36 - Normalize crying! (PJ used to cry in front of students all the time. lol)
46:35 - Side convo: Remote work means you never know how tall someone is
47:22 - The ability to make an impact
49:40 - Balance!
50:00 - Reference to “Drop the Ball” by Tiffany Dufu. http://tiffanydufu.com/drop-the-ball
51:30 - Celebrate others’ success
55:00 - Create the commute
56:44 - Take care of yourself first
57:55 - Advice for people just getting started
58:08 - Surfing Metaphor - Go under the chaos
59:54 - Thanks!
1:00:45 - Outro

A

B

We did it we're live, we made it.

B

That's all I can play before I get in trouble. Welcome.

A

B

The tanookies, my name, is pj metz we're here for another amazing episode, uh we're gonna be talking to someone super fantastic today, uh my brain's like go like just get to it, but also like I wanna, like there's a format to the show right, there's a way things are done. We banter first, I banted with myself. As you heard uh from the beginning, it is star wars day. It's it's may 4th and may the 4th be with you and uh I don't know.

C

Like I love star wars,.

B

I feel like it's it's it's gone beyond the sort of like. Oh it's only for this kind of person, because it was one of the most successful movies ever when it came out. I never bought into the idea that star wars is for nerds or you're like weird, if you like, star wars, because especially at this point, when disney plus has like eight star wars shows, and it's one of the most popular franchises of all time. It's not it's not a nerdy thing anymore. Yeah.

A

I argue almost.

B

It never was, and that's on uh gatekeeping uh cultural touchstones, y'all, um so yeah. uh Today's episode is not it's not because of star wars. We actually we schedule it, and I was like: oh that's the star wars, everyone's gonna be like putting lightsaber emojis on slack and everyone's gonna be tweeting about it and all that good stuff. So uh it's a very fun day and it's a lot of fun. I always like the next day, uh revenge of the fifth.

B

uh I know it's cinco de mayo as well, but I always thought revenge of the fifth was always exciting, um but uh yeah. So this is a show. It's called meet the tsunukis uh I work at get lab. I don't know if you can tell we got our new logo up here. It's a little rounder he's cute. I wonder if that makes it easier. Oh, that does make it easier to see actually fantastic, but that was debuted last week. uh Brand new sudoku is rounded.

B

uh He's got some cool little devops, easter egg design secrets in there um very nice very good, but I still got the old shirt because I'm repping retro gear today uh very important, but uh this show, as it exists, is all about meeting team members at git lab and the whole point is to meet people who are just doing work at gitlab, doing amazing things and to meet the person and what they do here and find out what they like who they are. It's not just work.

B

If this was a meeting, uh we wouldn't be doing it live on twitch. Instead, we do it live on twitch. uh We have a thing at gitlab called coffee chats. I consider this like an extended coffee chat and uh today I'm very excited to be chatting and talking with an amazing person uh who reached out to me and said I saw your show, I think it's fun I gotta be on it and I was like well.

B

I've seen you and you're awesome and you're gonna be on it and uh we scheduled it and we're here and everyone please welcome. Please welcome. I'm so excited hayley.

B

Actually, I should have had a lightsaber sound ready. Oh.

A

C

B

That's again, that's all I can play we're. Gonna make our own pipes safer.

C

I'm sorry, george lucas is calling hey. That's.

B

Right, oops, sorry, dorothy.

B

So welcome I'm so first off like it makes me excited when people like see the show and go. Oh, I want to be on it and then you created an issue and, like you didn't even like talk to you just like bam issue, I was like yes, this is exactly what I want um so now that you're here and now.

A

That we're live.

B

In front of according to this four people, uh why don't you tell everyone who.

C

You are yeah, um so I'm haley I am uh who am I gosh? You know it's like whenever someone asks you to fill out like. Can you please give us a short bio. It's like the hardest thing in the world to write it's much easier to talk about somebody else, um but yeah, I'm haley. I've been with git lab for three and a half years.

C

um I started as an individual contributor, I'm now leading two teams and they're just they're growing like like crazy um and I'm an american which you can tell from my accent, but I've actually lived in the netherlands for six and a half years. So um my my dutch, I have to say, is quite good at this point. I've got a dog and a kid- and I say the dog first because he's older and it's only fair to him. um I think that's a good little.

C

Like first expression, you name your dog first I was like, of course I do like.

B

Yeah, that's the order of the kids.

C

He's my uh he's, my oldest child, so.

B

That's amazing, oh my gosh! So let's, let's, let's talk about there's a million things to talk about. First off: let's talk about uh netherlands, so.

A

B

By accent you said, that's great and I think that's I feel like you have to speak. Some touchdown.

C

I'm not going to be able to judge this william.

C

Okay, come from america born in netherlands, and uh it is a muy like a dalmar express, that's so.

B

Good how so, when you were so this whole journey of learning, a second language did you did you have any like? uh Did you speak any spanish or french or anything before or was it.

C

I was one of those typical american kids who took spanish for ages and then went to college and went to university and took german. So that's.

A

My exact same thing, I did.

C

Like it was, it was useless, like all my spanish colon um and then I got to the netherlands and I thought well, I know a bit of german that will help me and it didn't nope it didn't at all. It's not. It looks the same, but it sounds very different. So.

B

C

It was quite an adventure, but um it's it honestly is the immersion. It's immersion right like the more you can speak it because taking a class I don't know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna apply yourself person. So the more I actually speak it in day-to-day life, the better it's gotten so um which isn't always easy to do. In the netherlands, they speak english. So.

B

Oh yeah and that's something that my friend who who knew german he was like. So I went to germany and studied abroad, but when I was there, everyone wanted to speak english to me and I was like no. I need to practice my german. They were like. Oh, your german is fine. I'm going to practice my english and then their english is amazing. They're, like ah my vocabulary, it's not so good, but this is very um you know it's an expressive situation, I'm like that's good vocabulary. What are you talking about? It.

C

The emotion I feel like is a little more straightforward in in english, and it's so much harder to get those nuances in other languages. Oh.

B

For sure it takes a long time to get to it. You know so uh six years you've been living there. Why did you move to the netherlands.

C

um Yeah, so I was not to age myself, but I was it was like the year I was turning 30 and I had been living in san francisco for eight years I was working in tech and my best friends were getting married and I was sort of reaching that, like mid-quarter year life crisis from like what do I want to do with my life, and I had an international role where I was working with um our team in the us with the tech company I was at, and her team in europe had an opportunity to come out and work with the team here and, of course our european headquarters was in amsterdam.

C

um So I had my first visit. It was in april of 2015. um yeah. I think 2015 is right and I spent two and a half weeks here and I always say I fell in love and people were like. Oh you know, with a person, I was like no with a city um like amsterdam.

B

Was just everything.

C

I wanted, and that was what I was in love with so when a few weeks later my boss said well, you know we want to. We got a head count open for another um sales engineer and we want them to be based in amsterdam to work with our european team, and I said well, you know, there's a lot more candidates in san francisco.

C

So why don't I take the job in amsterdam and I'll hire my replacement here, and so that was it three months later three suitcases, and now it was those three suitcases turned into like a big house, a kid, a dog, a partner. I.

B

Mean a life, a whole life lift was waiting for you, it's fantastic, really yeah, oh man, so we this is funny, I'm just starting to realize kind of the similarities we have. First off, you were like so I've been living in I've been living in amsterdam for six years, and you said well. When did this happen? Oh well, I was 30 and I'm like. Oh we're, the same age, okay, cool! Then you were like it was about 2015. When I went and decided to move internationally, I too went moved internationally in 2015.

B

I went lived in korea for a.

A

C

B

A

B

Oh, this is kind of crazy that we're like living these similar lives and then now we've intersected like.

C

It was destined, it was meant to be pj's.

B

That's right, I'm your density.

B

Oh, my gosh, okay, so you moved to amsterdam, you said you were working in tech and you said specifically sales engineer um yeah. What what is your background like? Let's go way back, let's go to college: let's go to post college. What was your degree? What were your jobs? How do you get to be a sales engineer.

C

Yeah, so I took a very um non-normative route and I think that defines a lot of my life of taking a non-normative route, so I actually got my master's in geriatric social work um and which so I was working at a nursing home for quite some time, and I got honestly I got really burnt out like I was 24 years old. I was in a director role and I realized that what I needed from my job it needed to be more than what I'm passionate about in terms of like.

C

I think social work really identified like how I felt about people what I believe people should have and that support- um and I realized I needed more in my role, because otherwise I would give too much and really it was it just wasn't healthy. So in my mind I thought I had a friend you know san francisco startups. It's like.

C

I had a friend who was in customer success and I was speaking to him about it and I was like oh so when I interviewed for the role I thought I I kind of pitched it to the co. It's like ceo is like it's the social work of tech right like my job as a customer.

C

Success manager is to understand the the customer and what their needs are and make sure that they are empowered to use our platform to its fullest capabilities right, which is social work, but in a tech space, um and it actually worked really well, and I found that driving then, for I realized that I'm quite competitive so and I like to talk to people so sort of a natural route into a customer focus role, which was like customer success.

C

Tech sales.

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C

And um yeah it was definitely not the route I thought I would take, but in the end I feel like I leveraged more of those skills and and what I learned then now than I ever did before.

B

I mean, if there's a part in that story where, if you're watching live, you saw me go like because something just clicked and made sense for me. You absolutely make sense as a salesperson, because you talk to a ceo you're like well.

B

Listen like geriatric social work is basically customer success and they were like damn you're right and you were right and that's like you sold me on it just now, I'm ready to hire you too, like that's fantastic, but it's so funny how how the the things we think we're doing when we're younger, I mean, like you, decided like 17, where you're gonna go to school.

B

Like you go to school and then you're like, I guess I have to pick a degree.

A

And it's kind of.

B

Interesting, how not only does it not always lead where we think it's leading, but those very skills that we learned back then can come and help us later on if we're switching careers.

C

Yeah definitely I was talking to someone else about this. I mean in europe. It's it's a little bit different right, but I mean my experience in america. School in american school is like in middle school already or high school you're. Already thinking about like this is the path you should be on. This is the career you should.

A

C

I don't even remember who I was at you know: 16, let alone you know. 20 years later I do and I don't like that. 16 year old.

B

A

Yeah there's a lot.

B

There seems to be especially in america like a very prescribed path. You're meant to take and that's why, when you said it was a non-normative and non-normal route, I love it. I don't have a normal route, my friends don't have normal. No one really has a straight path uh that that I know I feel like most people have like we wander around.

C

You know- and I think it's so important to highlight that, especially as like me being in a leadership role now and I'm a hiring manager that I like to see that I like to see diversity in people right like like they talk about the best journalists, they don't start with journalism school. They learn something else first and then they want to write because you need something to write about. So I do think that there are other things that bring a unique skill set into every role.

C

You just have to think about how the skill sets I have fit into that. It's it's more fun. That way, I think as well. Absolutely.

B

Oh, my gosh, absolutely so here you are you've, you've moved to uh amsterdam, you are there and you're working as a sales uh engineer and what because we're not.

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B

Lab yet right we're.

A

Just sort of no yeah we're living.

B

In amsterdam working for a completely different company, I don't even care who it is because, like gitlab is worth that. But so what happens? How take us from moving amsterdam to working at gitlab, yeah.

C

It's a it was a very interesting journey um that tech company I was at for about four years and it just went through a lot of um growth, hyper growth, layoffs, cyber growth layoffs. What are we doing? We're re-figuring and.

B

I was at a point.

C

Where I had fit in so many roles- and I had worked myself into a place where I was indispensable at the company, but I didn't feel there was growth opportunity and I was you know, I'm still in my 20s. I was ready for more. I wanted that growth opportunity, and so I set my eyes on startups. You know startups and looking for that next opportunity and starting to grow something new, um and so I ended up at a um well.

C

I did a short stint actually at a five-person company and my number one piece of advice is: if you're going to join that early on you. Should you should be one of the founders you should you should eat drink sleep, dream about that product and fully believe in it, because you're going to have to give your blood sweat and tears, and it was not what I had expected and so I said you know what it was around the six month mark like we're, not aligned. This isn't working, I'm gonna go to I'm gonna.

C

Do the like typical american white girl thing. I'm gonna go to india for a month and I'm gonna do a yoga teacher training and I'm gonna find myself, um which is it really is, but it was a phenomenal experience and when I came back I started another tech job where.

B

He was one of the first.

C

20 people like I learned a lot, but I did learn what I was looking for in terms of the stage, and I wanted to be a little bit more founded, um yeah and so.

B

Five people is wild.

C

Like that's, it's.

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C

Really it's yeah, the product doesn't really exist yet right. Everyone is just kind of winging it, and I realized that I wasn't at the point of my career, where I was ready for that. I was ready to make that commitment to the work that you have to put in the salary cut right, all those things. So um it was definitely a good lesson for me and yeah.

B

Yeah, so there we are, it's there's the five people startup trip to india, find yourself. 20 people start up, so you know like four times as many people that's four times as big a company so like, but what you said. It made a lot of sense and I think a lot of people who are in tech no matter what the job is. If you're looking for a startup, if you're looking for an enterprise company, it's important to know where you want to slide into the company right.

A

B

Five is a ton of work. Verse 20 is a lot of work, but it's a bit different, so you you decided it was it was that worked better for you. So did that work better for you, the 20 person company.

C

Yeah at first it did for sure, like um I came on to, um I came on to basically build out the customer sides, the account management side. They had just started an enterprise product, they did a freemium model and I joined with a with a vp of sales to start running this, and it was exciting right. We were in a space where the customers wanted to talk to me and I learned the product so fast, because customers would speak to me every day.

C

You know double the company's revenue in less than a year was feeling like.

C

Actually this person that I hired, I want to promote her to manage the team, because I'm cruising along as an event individual contributor, I was happy, I was I was cruising um and then that turned into um well then I found out, I was pregnant and that's like enter sound effect right. There pj hold.

B

C

Wait get me get me, get one get one yeah like that's literally what it felt like right. It was you know I was driving. My career was an individual contributor. I was traveling all over europe. I was doing well, I was excited and then it was oh, I'm pregnant and it was.

B

C

Unexpected and it turned my world upside down, yeah.

B

um I mean it's, it's a big big, big, big, big, big change, yeah.

C

Yeah, it's a big big, big big changes.

B

Sometimes sometimes a lot of adjectives, a lot of the same adjective is what you need so unexpected, unplanned and you're working at this at this startup with the vp of sales and uh yeah. This is, I mean, I'm invested now. I need to hear the rest of the story.

C

So so I had a very difficult pregnancy and especially in the beginning, I was really really sick, and so I ended up just having to work from home a lot, and I was just everyday like telling my boss, like I'm sorry, I'm really sick, I'm just gonna work from home, I'm gonna work from home. It was almost like two weeks of me working from home and I woke up one morning. He was about 10 weeks pregnant at that point so like before you tell really anybody in a lot.

A

C

Cases right and I went into the office and um I just kind of sat down and told my boss. I was like hey it's really early, I'm just gonna tell you, because I'm not feeling well- and I just want you to know why right like dedicated to this job, doing the thing, but I'm gonna maybe need to work from home, because I don't, I don't feel well and I'm pregnant um the next time I came into the office. It was a little situation.

C

I got pulled into boss and ceo's office and was let go on the spot.

C

Which was a gut punch and my stomach already felt horrible, and it was like.

B

I'm already working on growing this baby here and he's.

A

C

Me a hard time yeah it was. It was because at a in a 20 person, startup, like I drank all of the kool-aid like I was drowning in the kool-aid, I loved what I was doing. I loved our customers.

C

I believed in it I was probably a little too emotionally invested in the company, where you kind of take those things you take everything a little personally, um and so that was really tough, but I think, as someone and I think anybody who's been through any struggle in their life, which I think every person has at some point. What gets you out of that hole is like the positive that comes out of it, because there's always something positive like life goes.

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C

This and I think we have to it's a good reminder that, like oh yeah, eventually, I'm going to be on top of that again down.

B

Down to go up yeah, absolutely.

C

Yeah exactly so.

B

People in the chat I mean, is that even legal, like I mean that's what I'm saying like my brain immediately goes. I don't think you're allowed to do that, but then I remember.

C

A

C

Employment like in.

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In the netherlands.

C

You have temporary contracts at first and people, that's basically the freedom to let let someone go or to leave a company for no reason right. So they don't have to give a reason. But the reason was a little. It mean it was a little too.

B

A little too loose with the rules, probably the.

C

Timing was a little bit too convenient for it.

B

C

Be anything but, um however, yeah talk about getting back up that hell, um because I think that was that was like the biggest change for me, because then I realized. Like first thing I thought was well. I need to be able to work remotely right like I know it's something we talk about at gitlab all the time and it's like everyone knows, give up a remote remote, but I'm open and telling this story because it like changed my life, the ability to work remotely.

C

That was the that was how I initially found. Gitlab was looking for roles where I I had that flexibility, where I could work from home um and then, of course, how you hear people talk about in every single interview, if you're a hiring manager, then I found your handbook and for me.

B

C

Remember like it's like number one thing, I read the handbook, but it's true like it's, it's kind of like our real world manifesto of like everything that we do, and I just there were some things that really aligned with me and um I feel I feel pretty lucky that I had that opportunity right.

B

Yeah- and I mean like I can imagine the sort of like uh the excitement of going well, I want to work remote and then finding a company that not only has remote work but they're like also we take it really seriously and we want to. We want you to know it's not just. Oh, we work remotely, it's we're finding the best way to work remotely and we have.

C

B

Team of people who's the job.

A

B

Is to make remote work work so, like that's, that's got to be exciting, so that's three and a half years ago. Are you so.

C

B

You are you still pregnant when you get the job at get lab.

C

I am I'm still pregnant, it is early early in it and I'm terrified I'm terrified to tell anyone.

B

Look at what just happened at the last job: they were like no, no.

C

Ptsd yeah yeah and as an american as well like it's, you know, women lose jobs or they don't get hired for jobs because they're, pregnant or they're thinking about having a family, and it's it it. I was just terrified. I was.

B

Terrible or even even the boss thinks that you might want a family, so they're less likely to promote you they're like yeah, but what if she wants to start a family? That's my.

C

B

C

What, if she's wonderful.

B

She wants a family.

C

Let's promote this dad because he's a good dad he's.

B

A good dad who works hard here.

C

Yeah exactly persist, that's where I want to say my death proceeds precisely yeah it was. um I do have to say, though I had an amazing boss from the get-go, and I was like it was time to from the get-go. Is that, like probably no.

B

I, like I tried to say I tried to make a joke like from the get go like git. It was good.

B

It was a good joke. Thank you.

C

Thank you. It was great. I love it. I love it. Okay,.

B

Sorry to interrupt please pregnant no at get lab great boss.

C

Great boss, I sat down. It was 20 weeks, I'm like it's time now, and that was when I should tell people, and I was so afraid, and he sensed it and he's like you- should be excited like three months off four months off. That's nothing! People like that time off all the time. People take that kind of time off all the time your job is secure. We're invested in you. I was like what the company's invested in me, even though it's.

B

C

And I'll never forget, because then I decided to actually announce it publicly to the rest of my team and sales leadership. This was back when, like emea, enterprise sales was five people. I think it's like 35 now.

A

C

And so it was like mcb rcro on the call and I'm going into my qbr presentation of like the quarter ahead and it's like a picture of an ultrasound, and I just I put it out there and it was. It- was freeing in a way right, like.

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C

I was allowed to celebrate it. I was allowed to be excited about it and still work hard at my job, and it was. I don't know. That was something that I had never experienced in my life, and it really was, it was cool. I mean cool is like not a good word. Get me a video.

B

C

B

It's absolutely correct for that situation, because it requires a place that first off made. You feel comfortable enough to do something like that.

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B

Second, that you knew you were gonna, be supported and, third, like look how it's paid off like three.

A

And a half years later, you're a manager of two.

B

A

B

This is when they said we're investing in you for the long term, they're like what's four months compared to what we think you're going to do and that just feels so secure. I think.

C

It's a nice feeling- and I think it's like gitlab- has a nice balance of having a lot of elements of of of a startup in the sense that you can really control your destiny right.

C

If you want to see change open an issue like we really do that, and um it has that, but then also that sense of security and combining those two things together, I think, has really allowed me to flourish and like one of the things in in interviews, I think, when I interview people one of the questions they have for me that I always love is like is is what is why do you stay a kid?

C

What is it that you love about gitlab, and I think I'm not the only person that would say this is like that feeling that I can actually be my authentic self at work and that's going to be acceptable and applauded, and it's going to allow me to be successful because we all want to be able to be successful as our.

B

Authentic selves.

C

um Yeah, it's really cool.

B

It's it's hard to to find a place where you feel comfortable being authentic, and once you do find a place, there's the additional challenge of well.

B

I haven't been able to be authentic, I feel like elsewhere, and so now I need to figure out how to be authentic and it can be a it could be a struggle but yeah, that's when I think of like culture fit or value, add or culture ad or whatever the buzzword's going gonna, be, I think, of a place where it's gonna be cool, that I have a child's background that is actually not for children. It's me like this is me and I'm a little weird and I'm a little bit.

B

Yes, you know out there and pastel and neon, but like I want a place where that's okay, at least okay at best celebrated- and I feel like git like does a good job of celebrating it without turning into the we're all a family here kind of cultivates, because I think they do a good job of that balance of like we know we're, not your family. In fact, please go be with your family right.

C

Yes or if you write family, gitlab, family and slack, it says uh that's.

B

Right, this is a get.

C

Lab team right: these are, you know, team members.

B

I love it yeah, that's great, so this whole journey brings you from uh well. Actually, let's talk about that move from individual contributor to manager, because I'm I'm very early in my career. This is my first job in tech. I used to be a teacher and when you're a teacher you're either a teacher or you become an administrator.

B

So for my whole life I was like yeah, I'm just gonna teach until you know I'm 72 years old and the kids are coming to class in holograms or whatever I don't know, and I just thought that's what it was going to be so now, I'm here and I'm like. Oh, like I can decide, do I want to manage people do I just want to be, and this is a whole new world for me. So for you.

C

B

Do you what what did that look like for you? What's the decision making, how do you get there.

C

Yeah, oh, it's such a good question. um I think I think the decision making, I think it's thinking about.

C

It's not to go back to the kid, but after I had a kid like, I think my priorities changed a bit like.

C

I had always wanted to be in leadership, and I think the reason for that, like I don't know, some people you have a draw to it from a young age is, is, I think, comes from my desire to be a social worker like I like to help people, and I do think that a good leader should should want to help those that they manage um and then coming out of coming out of maternity leave and coming back into my individual contributor role.

C

I kind of realized that I was at a point where gitlab was invested in me. I was invested in gitlab, but I kind of felt like my full skill set, wasn't being taken advantage of, like I felt like I could make a bigger compact in a different role in a leadership position, um and I think that was kind of that that pivot point that I hit. So it was a little bit of you know it's okay, to say no to leadership and be an individual contributor right, like I had done that in a previous role.

C

I think it's, I think it's great. It's also, okay, to kind of realize, like you're you're at this point right, like the best leaders, aren't necessarily the top performing reps and the best reps are not always. You know like it's. It's not always an alignment, so I think you think about.

C

For me it was the skill sets that I wanted to be using every day and- and I think that was what kind of sparked it for me um and yeah that was, that was kind of a big spark and then really just like from there. Looking like, I actually went into the sales development team and that was sort of like you're, an enterprise sales, rep and then you're gonna go manage sales development.

C

We worked together really well, but it was a totally different team and it was I was really. I had a lot of ideas from being a sal from being that enterprise rep and it was. It was an exciting move to make for me, yeah.

B

That's awesome and that that idea of I think that traditionally, when you think, and especially in like the american model, it's yeah you work and eventually you just become a manager and that's the expectation, and I think I I feel like there's a it might just be because, like I'm at gitlab and they're, not like no like don't manage, if you don't want to manage and they're not hiring people just because they're top performers, um this was also true of like teaching.

B

Just because you're, really smart of the subject and really good at a particular subject doesn't mean you can teach it very well. It just means you can do it very well. So finding a person who can be a good manager is more than just a person, who's good at the job. So yeah.

C

And I think there's like I don't know we're talking about a leadership team. It's like you, get you get into ever you get into a role and you just you keep moving up until you reach a point where you're not competent enough to ever go above that point, and- and that's that's not a bad thing, but you want to make sure you stop where you can still be successful and and by successful I don't mean just be able to hit your targets for whatever those targets are. But you also feel that challenge right.

C

You, you feel, like you, go into work every day, still excited to do it still wanting to achieve those things, so I think some people I mean in sales or in any other role, saying an individual contributor, especially at a company like git lab, where you can participate in other things and can do other things. This is a great place to be like. We always feel this push like okay, my year's up. What am I going to do next, like?

C

I think it's so much more fun to spend a little bit of time, and I want to be the best. What am I going to be the best at I want to have this legacy of go to haley, because she's the best at negotiation right like yeah.

C

That's that personal brand piece that I think is really important as well in roles. So it's it's um there's always that tease, because there's always jobs, there's always people hiring, there's always that appeal, but um I think I think, as an individual, you have to think about what's right for me. What do I want to get out of this role.

B

Right yeah, oh man, this is an inspiring episode right now, I'm feeling really good, um so you are coming from when we're talking sales. This is a world that I know very little about, um except when I go to buy a car. So that's my experience, um but when we talk about sales, uh something that you brought up when we met before the show was that working in sales as a woman can be challenging for a variety of reasons, and it's something that you said.

B

I really want to be able to talk about this, and so when you there is a sort of a social cultural picture of what sales is like and it doesn't appear to be very feminine on its face. So tell us about that. Your experience in sales is a woman.

C

Yeah absolutely- and I remember I was actually like woke up the other night thinking about our conversation and what I wanted to talk about with this too, because it's it's, um I think I think it's like especially getting up, but not especially, but in general it's changing right, like when I think about 12 13 years ago, which is a ridiculous amount of time for me and my brain to have been working in tech like yeah.

A

C

Was that traditional, you had a sales floor right and it was like 30 20 year old, dudes I'll, say dudes men and pretty.

B

C

Pretty much dudes like just out of college in their first job, like making 60 calls a day. 90 calls a day and then eventually some of them got promoted to the aes. And then it was the next level of of dudes and then the next level.

A

The next level of dudes.

C

And there would be maybe one or two women in there and- um and you almost had to like keep up with the boys right. You had to be one of the boys and I think for me um as a highly sensitive individual, who ask anyone on my team. I probably cry regularly on team calls for a long time. In my in my tech, career and in sales, it was like no, I have to. I have to be like the boys, and I can be right like I'm I can be.

C

I can definitely be one of the guys, but I realized that I think, as I grew in my career, that actually being more true to also the feminine side is super valuable right like nowadays. How are we selling? How do we sell git lab right? It's it's, not your car sales person, it's not! The 90 calls a day. It's it's building value and understanding like understanding what the customer needs and and making sure that they believe that you're, the best person to help them and I'm like.

C

Yes, women are really good at that, and it doesn't mean that all salespeople should be women now it means that taking a look at it from that perspective is going to help accelerate everyone else. And yes, I think I think, um before I get off my soapbox on this, like, I think it's important to also do that in leadership and in sales leadership like for me. My goal was always sales leadership and it was- and it was specifically for that.

C

It was because I wanted to bring that feminine approach, and I wanted to bring and an empathic approach to to how I worked, how I saw leadership to how I saw um you know, managing a team, and I think, there's still a little bit of that ceiling in um in leadership across the board. But gitlab is the first company where I felt like I could speak up about those things and instead of it being like oh haley, the troublemaker. Oh, don't say that.

A

Around haley, because she's gonna play.

C

The sexist card, the amount of times on a male sales floor where I tried to say something, and it was like: oh haley, don't ruin the fun haley.

B

C

Oh haley, you don't be a party pooper um party pooper. This is mom talk gitlab, it was the opposite. It was haley. How can we be better about that haley? What can we do like? How does this work? It was something I had never seen before and it that's like really where I think that that authentic vibe, that feeling of being able to be your authentic self, I said vibe because I see see yellowman they're, saying killing the.

B

Killing the vibe oh come on she's harsh in our time.

C

It was really rough like that, would.

B

C

It like, oh, we were just having fun. I was like yeah, but your fun is not someone else. That's fun and you're fine. Mindful of that.

B

Right there is there is that there's a uh it exists like when you said the traditional like the sales floor, like I, I immediately thought of a wolf of wall street and like absolutely there's women there, but it's in a way where, like you're, almost expected in order to fit in and a lot of sales is connecting with that culture there. So you can be because what happens is one sales person's like? Oh, this lead isn't working, I'm gonna give it to someone. I like right.

B

This person can maybe take over and do better with it, or maybe this helps them out and if they don't like, you, they're not going to help you out. You know so you're expected to like to to be a bro one of the guys. The cool girl stereotype right yeah.

C

I spent so much of my life trying to be that girl.

B

You already you, you were the cool girl, but not in oh you're, a cool girl because you're one of the guys, you were doing your own thing and you brought your own energy and you brought your own vibe which, like you said now, that's desired and that's what we need in sales. That's what we need in the position that you're in now. So like you're, absolutely right! You trailblazer you.

C

Hey there we go if it help, I mean all the goal is such as so we see more women in it right, like the commercial sales leadership team at gitlab. Half of us are women for sure four. There was more women than men for a minute and it's great.

B

C

Like that's great, that makes a huge difference. You need to be able to see people in those roles to feel like you can get there yourself like.

B

Right, it's it's hard to picture yourself on a team. If, if there's not someone like you on the team already you don't it's hard to be the first, you know what I mean.

A

B

A

B

You know that, but I don't know why I'm telling you hey. Do you know what I mean like you, you lived it. It's your life, you know yeah.

C

I like to be the guinea pig, it's it's my it's. My own weirdness.

B

When you talk about that that more feminine energy and that sort of like the more traditionally feminine, like like uh characteristics uh using that to your advantage, you said that works really well at gitlab because you're, you said: you're you're, an especially empathetic person, so you're making connections with people you're not saying here's the product buy it buy it, buy it you're, saying here's the product. What do you need? Is there a place where these puzzle pieces fit like and clearly you found success with it like? So what is that?

B

Like sort of balancing that that that feminine energy with sales, which still can be kind of a higher pressure job.

C

Absolutely absolutely- and I think that, like there's that misconception, that, like uh I mean we're all masculine and feminine and knowing when to leverage those like what fits for us and those things right. But it's.

B

A

C

It's a spectrum y'all, but I think knowing knowing the value that you have or the potential um I mean men every day you know like, I think you kind of know intrinsically about like the the step ahead. You can get in certain ways by being a man or a woman, or this for that and I think leveraging it in an intelligent way where it's bringing value.

C

So um I think when I started in tech- and I was doing security at that company when I first moved like when I would get on a security call, it would be old men and I caught them off guard and that was actually like totally off guard right, like a young woman talking to me about the application security and like penetration tests like all these things right, but I realized that that's an advantage like catching people off guard is good in the sense that, like it, disarms them like, I think I think, establishing rapport key for that.

C

Like that's one of the things that I think women tend to just in general, not women, I won't say women, take that back. I think that's more of like a feminine leaning thing that that allows you to kind of get a customer to open up right. If you want a customer to talk to you and engage like you, want them to feel comfortable and they won't, you want them to feel like you're listening to them, not that you feel like it, but you are you want to be listening to them. I.

B

Mean yeah, so I think.

C

Yeah those are, I think, those are some of the things that have been super helpful and um combining that with. I think my success background and social work background to just really like ask more questions. You know how.

A

Do you get there.

C

The the what why why why and and um I think that approach is refreshing as well.

B

Yeah right, I, like that word refreshing.

C

I almost said cool, but you know I got.

B

It it's really cool but like.

B

It's like a a nice cold mountain dew on a hot day, uh shout out mountain dew. You haven't answered my texts. Please call me um but yeah that idea of of being able to like catch them off guard they sort of lower their defenses, and then that allows you to come in and say, and now I really want to listen to what it is that you need here and what it is you're looking for here and you lower their defenses in order to get closer to what it is that they really want as opposed to.

B

Well. I don't need this and you know you don't you can't convince me and it's fine that we're here like it's, it's a good technique. I think I think that's great listen. I I want mountain dew too, like check out my twitter. I've been yelling at them for a year.

B

I'm coming up on one year of tweeting at mountain dew, every single day asking them to send me free mountain dew kickstart, um we're really close, y'all, stick with it. Maybe they'll, maybe they'll, send me something one day. I doubt it. It gets like two likes every day, so we had sales as a woman, we have sales management as a woman.

B

Now and again, as you progress higher up the ladder and you become the uh the person that is showing that you know women and non-binary people can be in these positions that it's not just for men.

B

What is what does it? Look like now now, you're in this leadership center you're, getting to mentor people and you're getting to choose who comes on the team and you're getting to teach people how's that working for you.

C

I love it. Yes, it's great.

B

Listen I, as a high school teacher, as an english teacher, I used to cry once a year in front of some of my students. I did it when reading um mother to son by langston hughes, to some freshmen. I did it while reading the last uh page of gatsby to some juniors. I've done it while it's it's, it happens once a year and I'll just start crying and I'll be like this happens every year and the kids are like. Oh man, he really did it, and I am.

B

I am six foot six, I'm two meters tall, I'm 270 pounds and I'm like so.

C

Are you guys getting right.

C

I think it's I'm.

B

Glad I got a tear out of you on this show. This feels pretty good. I got to be.

C

Honest, I mean it's gonna happen. I do have to pause really quickly for a side conversation. So if you're a family guy person, this is when they like bubble out and then you forget, the storyline, the um the fun part about working at gitlab. Is you never know how tall people are and then you meet them in person and you're like huh holy smokes.

C

But it's it's my favorite thing, it's my absolute favorite thing, but um I you know talking about growth and all these things, like I'm I'll, tell you right now like, as I advice I gave to someone as well saying, get stay in the role a little longer like make sure you feel like you're the expert on something when I think about where I'm at today with my team and what we're doing I'm like I've, barely scratched the surface, and I actually really love managing people earlier in their sales careers like because I mean selfishly like you, can make an impact and then you watch them grow and I'm the type of person that, like I get way more satisfaction to see.

C

Someone on my team get promoted and promoted again than than for me to get promoted and promoted again. So it's it's really fun to see that and to feel like you're, actually making a difference in their professional but personal lives, because it's all connected. We can't deny that it's not so. um I do think that there's an important way to connect that, like the professional development, can connect to the personal too. So I really am I'm happy and I hope hopefully my team enjoys it too, but.

B

I feel like a few of them have been in the chat talking about.

C

I think so I think I think so I've got I've got my cheerleaders, which I appreciate, but.

B

We all need cheerleaders right, that's exciting, and to to be able to see people succeed. Is such a good feeling- and I think, you're right that that does tie back to you being a social worker and working with people who are very traditionally um ignored or left behind, especially and tougher trying to create a better life, for others is, is big, 2022 energy? That's! What we need now and for the rest of time is, is lifting each other up and caring about each other. You know.

C

B

It if we were I'm working on it because, like when I'm in my car, I feel, like I hate everyone around me and I'm working on that car's.

C

Different me too: it's the only place, I'm angry. That's.

B

Basically, that's basically the the thunderdome out there.

A

B

You talked about uh when we did our pre-show chat. You talked about balance and today is may the 4th it's star wars day and there's a big thing in star wars, about bringing balance to the force, but for you, you've got remote work. You've got management, you've got a team that depends on you. You've got a kid. You've got a partner.

B

How? What does valentine's? Don't forget the dog and the dog? Oh my gosh, the most important child. I can't wait for your child to be like a teenager, be like the dog was always a little more important and they'd be like mom yeah.

A

You'll be like listen, sorry,.

B

The dog got fed first, I gotta say so when we're talking about balance dog child partner, work fun, enjoying life at some point. What what does balance look like in your life.

C

I think I think there's um I'm gonna bring in juggling right like we're all just juggling a lot of things and you can keep adding more you'd, be like yeah. I got this. I got this. I got this. I got this. I got this. I got.

A

This and I think.

C

Balance is like letting some of those things fall like knowing what you can let go of, um and and that's something that it took me a really long time to be okay with, because I'm one of those people like yeah, I can do it yeah. I can do it yeah, I'm gonna. Do that? No no yeah.

B

C

I can do it, I don't.

B

Trust you, why did you, why did you do it? I was gonna. Do it.

C

I was gonna, do it? Why didn't? Why didn't you ask me to do it right? Why did you ask me to do it so there's just this, this constant push and pull of having to do it all and I'm like. Oh that's.

C

The only way to find balance is that I can't do it all, and I have to know that, and I have to know what I do have to give to each one of those parts that I'm juggling to make that to make that like, I want to make that into a star wars reference, but I'm trying to think about it. Right. You've got you're.

B

Struggling with death stars does that work.

C

I mean you've got the force and you've got the dark side right and, like oh.

B

C

You know if we think about like um I'm forgetting the names of people, but if you think about luke, skywalker, yeah right.

A

C

He's got the dark side too, and it's it's very.

A

In that balance,.

C

It's like what makes us you're, not all you're, not one or the other, so I think it's really important to um to let go of some of the let others pick it up. I think um I used to get now we're getting really personal, but.

A

C

Get really I used to be a little bit of a jealous person in everything and like if someone did something else and got recognition for it I was like, but why didn't I do that? I should have been the one to do that instead of like applauding the other, um and I think, as I got older, had a kid just learned more about life realized like actually no.

C

If that person wants to do that, I want to make sure I help them get there, applaud them and then use that as well right, like learning to celebrate the accomplishments of others and leverage. That is for your for yourself right. Like we're all. I think it's that git lab collaboration thing. You just feel so much better about it and knowing you can rely on other people for things um and knowing it's.

C

Okay, like last anecdote on that when I started in my role- and this is a shout out to my boss- ryan o'nell- he specifically left me out of things and I remember having a really tough one-on-one with him. Where I was like you don't think I can do it. You know I was all defensive.

A

C

And he was like, I want to make sure you get these things done first, because these are the most important right like it. It took me a minute to realize that it's like maslow's hierarchy of need when it comes to balance.

B

C

You can't do that thing on the top, if you haven't figured out this stuff on the bottom, so make sure I'm doing everything that I need to for myself and my team first before I start taking on more responsibility right.

B

Absolutely yeah, I, like that metaphor of uh juggling and just taking on more and more, and sometimes it feels like you're, just keeping everything in the air and as soon as you get something up and it's okay, another thing's coming down and you gotta take care of it. And it's it's terrifying. It's absolutely terrifying.

C

Exactly and and as humans like, we should live with a good amount of stress, which is why we should be juggling. But you get you you reach that curve, where it's no longer healthy yeah, um and it's for us all to get to that point. I think, especially when you work from home and you don't have the ability to just I tell.

A

My team, all the.

C

Time like you're all alone in your room, which means in a room by yourself, which means your ego. Your inner thoughts like are gonna, get the best of you at some point, and so you gotta kind of check out of that, because that's, I think that adds to that pressure of more more more.

A

I'm not doing enough.

C

Like is constantly.

B

C

B

I I've uh forced myself to allow myself to to do bike rides, uh even if it's.

C

B

Day I I forced myself to allow myself absolutely. I was like pj, it's okay, there's a rule at gitlab you're, a manager of your own time. You decide when you're working as long as it all gets done as long as the results are there. So if you're gonna have lunch and you're gonna ride your bike, a half hour out have lunch and ride it a half hour back and it takes an hour and a half total.

B

Are you still getting your work done? If the answer is yes, then that's allowed and I'm like right, but I'm leaving and right, but should I maybe put slack on my phone just in case so I can like reach. When I was a teacher, I had my work email on my phone and I would tell parents hey if you email me on the weekend and I'm at disney I'll write you back. That's not healthy.

A

That wasn't good parents loved it.

B

C

They're gonna take advantage of that right, yeah, oh it's so true, and it's something that, like I'm no expert like I'm still struggling with it right. I had like a meltdown on monday because I hadn't slept and my kid was there and when I'm trying to work and have my kid and everything.

A

Like yeah, you have to.

C

Find the you have to create kind of the commute right like okay, I'm done.

B

C

The day leaving it here, I'm gonna commute to my living room now right to create that separation of that work and personal, because when the when the lines blur which guilty it's happened to me and it happens over and over that's when that balance is gone when those lines blur right for.

B

Sure, right- and I know that uh I feel like a lot of gitlab team members, especially on my team, I'm on community relations, I feel like they are very open about telling each other hey. Are you taking enough time off? Hey make sure that you're relaxing hey it's the weekend.

B

um My manager will like if someone takes pto he'll, look at their contribution uh blocks on gitlab and be like oh big, empty space. I love it good job. It's awesome.

C

It's such a cool way to hold each other accountable for that yeah.

B

And like it's all in in making sure that we are taking time for ourselves because, like work is work and it's great and it can be very rewarding, but you only get so many hours and you only get so much time. So it's it's nice to support each other and be like you know, make sure you're you're enjoying your life. You know and doing the right stuff.

C

Yeah, it's actually more important than work.

B

It is because eventually you're not going to work in kit lab anymore and eventually you're not going to work with the next company anymore, like you're gonna, be somewhere else, and it's it's important to do good work because it can fulfill you and you can feel good about what you've done and you've created. It's.

A

B

Important to take care of yourself first.

C

Yeah so much- and I think that's such a good point with balance too is like work- doesn't have to be your everything I think in america, even in europe. My partner struggles with this, too, is like I have to do something that I'm super passionate about. They care about. So much, I'm like find something that that excites you and challenges you, but doesn't take your everything, because you need that. You need that balance.

C

I think it's it's hard to find that some people do some people thrive in it right think like musicians actors, maybe but it's a totally different lifestyle than working in tech right. So um I get my challenge. I get my satisfaction in the role that I'm in, but it's it isn't my everything and I try to let it go at the end of the night or on the weekends.

C

B

It can be hard, but it is rewarding when you do find that balance haley this uh first off. I can't believe that we're almost done.

C

I wouldn't wait to inform.

B

You that the episode is almost over. uh This has been a really. It feels really quick, uh but are there any final? I realize I've just been the small guy over here. You can see me again. uh Are there any.

C

B

Maybe some actually, this is kind of fun, how about advice for people who are just getting started in either sales or in tech? Oh, my god,.

C

um One of the things I always tell my team is, um I make this metaphor, and I actually did it when I applied for the asm role that I'm in now, like this metaphor of um of surfing right. So when I first learned how to surf, I was living in california, northern california, san francisco, not the easiest place to learn how to surf right. It's gnarly, there's my california word for you, like the undercurrent.

A

C

Tides like it's wild, the water is wild, it's terrifying, so there's always going to be, especially in tech, especially at get lab right. Things are always changing. There's always a million things going on right. There's all of this, the best way to like swim through that we would do what you call you turtle, which is like you, take your board, you throw it over yourself, you go underneath where it's.

A

C

Calm, instead of trying to like time over- oh god, here's the next.

B

C

So it's it's try and find that calm, trying to find your place where you're swimming just below, where those things are happening and you can acknowledge them and you can understand what you need from them, but it's not you're not getting swept into it right. I think that is especially in sales, especially in uh at get lab in tech in general. There's just so many things happening and getting thrown at you at any time that if you can find your your calm water underneath those waves, that's your sweet spot.

B

As as a living in a state with lots of surfing, uh I don't surf, but I definitely know about going underneath the wave in order to avoid all the chaos. So that's a great metaphor um haley. I.

C

B

I can't say enough good things about this show and about you having been on and how much. I really appreciate you uh taking a chance on, like you know, getting in front of, uh however many people are gonna watch this and everybody people are gonna, see the youtube video. Just you stood up and you said yeah. Let's talk about something amazing and I just want to say thank you for the bottom of my heart for coming on the show and being here and for.

A

Your three and a half years, git lab.

B

This is fantastic.

C

I was so excited when I watched jessica's and I just was like. Oh, I want to do this partially because I just wanted to talk to you for an hour. So thank you for having me thank you for making it super easy. It was really an honor um and keep up keep doing this. I will socialize and do what I can to pump it up. I'm.

B

Going to get some sea level people on here one day, it's going to happen.

A

I think they all seem like.

B

They'd be down for it honestly.

A

All right thank.

B

A

B

And we will see you all next time.

A