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A
B
B
A
B
He
did
the
one
that
he
didn't
need
a
budget
for
because
he
was
a
developer
and
300
people
joined
him
in
that
effort.
I
saw
the
year
later
and
I
said,
that's
great
I'll
circulate
or
come
without
you
and
he
was
like
yeah,
that's
wholly
cool,
it's
open
source
go
for
it
and
a
year
later,
he
tweeted
out
I
want
to
work
on,
get
laughs
full-time
and
we
agreed
on
a
pay.
B
I
went
to
the
local
West
Indian,
your
money
station
said
I
want
to
wire
some
money
from
the
Netherlands
and
then
to
the
Ukraine,
and
they
said:
do
you
know
this
person
or
assist
someone?
You
met
over
the
Internet?
These
are
a
lot
of
scams
going
on
I
made
the
wire
and
that's
how
we
got
in
business
and.
B
A
B
A
B
We
were
apprehensive
I
told
my
wife
when
we
before
we
went
out
to
Y
Combinator
I,
said
well,
there's
a
risk
of
us-china
that
will
be
talked
into
taking
outside
money.
I
said:
stop
me
if
that
happens,
and
she
saw
the
process
which
we
went
to.
We
didn't
want
outside
money,
because
it
means
that
you
have
to
return
it.
You
have
to
get
to
a
so
called
liquidity
event,
which
means
I
just
sold
the
company
or
you
Ivo,
become
a
public
company
is
very
unlikely.
B
So
most
people
end
up
selling
and
that's
not
something
we
wanted
for
the
company.
Then
we
try
to
recruit
people
that
were
good
in
sales
and
marketing
and
they
all
wanted
stock
options
and
I
saw
what
happened
if
you
give
options,
but
it
takes
15
years
to
get
to
liquidity.
That's
not
that
wasn't
really
the
deals.
I
want
to
respect.
If
we
gave
option
they'd
be
or
something
so,
we
had
to
grow
fast
and
to
grow
fast.
You
need
outside
money,
so
we
ended
up
raising
money
and
now.
A
B
B
A
So
that
actually
leads
me
to
to
my
next
question
when
I
first
reached
out
to
you
for
the
podcast
I
was
toying
with
a
podcast
just
focused
on
remote
companies,
because
since
I've
been
19,
I've
worked
remotely
and
built
my
companies,
as
mostly
distributed
I,
wouldn't
I
read
your
guys's
manifesto
I
was
really
excited
to
chat
and
understand
why
you
chose
remote
and
specifically
what
our
audience
can
learn
from
when
they're
thinking
through
whether
they
should
be
co-located
or
partially
or
fully
remote.
Especially,
you
know.
These
founders
are
between
five
and
fifty
people,
usually
I.
B
Think
for
us
it
was
really
important
that
people
didn't
have
to
come
to
the
office,
to
get
the
information
that's
necessary
and
to
get
to
the
job
opportunities,
the
career
opportunities
that
are
necessary
so
from
very
early
on.
We
started
writing
things
down
and
doing
well,
comma
dated
they
told
us,
look
remote
works
for
engineering,
but
not
finance
and
marketing
and
sales.
So
we
got
an
office
and
people
write
like
they
got
hired
and
became
there
for
a
few
times.
B
But
after
a
few
days
they
stopped
showing
up
because
it
wasn't
needed,
they
weren't
getting
any
extra
information
and
they
were
on
slack
on
zoom'
in
the
Google
Docs
and
in
get
lot
pages
and
get
love
issues
and
get
like
merger
crafts,
and
they
just
didn't
need
to
be
there.
So
I
think.
That's
not
that
people
like
to
commute
it's
just
that
people
that
want
to
miss
out
and
if
you
make
sure
that
people
don't
miss
out.
B
You
can
be
remote
too,
but
it
takes
a
lot
of
effort
and
focus
to
make
sure
you
push
down.
You
make
sure
that
all
and
conversations
are
captured
appropriately
and
and
that
everything
is
documented.
Our
handbook
now
is
over
3,000
pages
of,
like
what
processes
do
we
have
and
if
you're
going
to
change
something
you
change
it
there.
First
and
foremost,
it's
not
an
afterthought,
it
is
the
way
we
operate.
How.
A
B
A
It
awesome
I
like
that
right
now,
I
use
a
just
a
really
large
Google,
Doc
and
I
think
I'm
starting
to
hit
the
upper
limit
of
that
with
my
company.
So
that's
really
good
to
know
that
that
leads
me
to
the
next
question,
especially
since
you
mentioned
that
a
Y
Combinator,
which
I've
heard
before
I
lived
in
San
Francisco
for
six
years
and
had
a
company
that
was
fully
remote
and
then
we
took
on
venture
capital.
They
were
like
what
you
have
to
have
an
office
and
we
had
the
same
thing.
A
We
had
an
office,
but
only
a
few
people
would
come
in.
Most
of
our
company
were
in
different
places,
and
everyone
seemed
to
get
more
done
when
they
were
working
remotely.
But
in
terms
of
your
investors,
how
have
they
kind
of
dealt
with
this?
One
of
the
things
people
say
often
when
I
talk
about
remote
is
yeah,
but
you
can't
really
raise
venture
capital,
but
you
guys,
obviously
in
2018
I,
just
as
I
was
looking
up,
you
announced
a
hundred
million
dollar
wrap
round
led
by
I
think
iconic
capital.
So
how
did?
B
Don't
like
remote,
we
missed
out
on
investors
because
we
were
remote.
We
have
skepticism
from
investors
because
we
were
remote.
It
gets
easier
if
you
get
bigger
because
the
assessment
switches
in
the
beginning,
they
assess
your
team,
then
they
assess
your
product
and
then
they
assess
your
financials.
B
The
team
they're
like
super
skeptical.
They
will
be
able
to
create
something
known
remote.
Then,
when
it's
about
the
product
they're
like
yeah,
maybe
but
scaling,
and
this
and
that
and
then
when
it's
about
financials,
you
can
let
the
numbers
speak
for
themselves.
So
it's
less
of
a
concern
for
for
us,
the
B
round
was
the
hardest
one,
because
the
a
round
we
were
still
kind
of,
we
got
that
office
and
everything
and
there
August
Capital
and
a
video
Jeff
said:
look
I!
B
Don't
like
this
remote
thing,
but
explain
to
me
why
it's
gonna
work,
which
is
the
first
time
an
investor
asked
that
and
I
thought
it
was
very
nice
so
that
give
us
a
chance
to
address
it.
The
investor
she
just
said
no
without
without
looking
into
it
and
we
presented,
and
he
was
still
skeptical,
no
one
of
his
associates.
A
p--
said,
Harvey
said:
hey,
I've,
read
their
handbook
and
started
reading
yesterday
and
read
all
through
the
night.
They
they're
the
best
organized
company
of
their
size.
B
I
they're
gonna
make
this
work
and
I
kind
of
he
vouched
for
us
and
that
sealed
the
deal.
The
problem
is:
if,
if
we
were
to
be
acquired,
there's
probably
like
a
50%
discount
because
for
the
acquiring
company
is
so
hard,
you
can
bring
people
over
to
their
headquarters,
etc.
We
have
very
few
people
in
the
area
so
and
since
an
acquisition
is
the
most
likely
outcome,
if
you
raise
venture
capital
that
that,
like
depresses,
your
valid
evaluation,
you
will
get,
but
people
are
getting
better
about
it.
A
And
I
wonder
even
in
the
next
five
to
ten
years,
will
we
see
investors
who
are
maybe
only
investing
in
remote
companies,
because
I
mean
obviously
we're
a
little
biased
as
that's
the
way
we've
worked
and
the
way
we've
built
companies
but
I
feel
like
remote
cultures,
often
or
more
results-driven
everything's
written
down?
It's
it's!
You
can
be
a
lot
more
organized
than
if
you're
co-located,
but
there
that
huge
bias,
but
I
do
wonder
if,
in
the
next
five
to
ten
years,
we're
gonna
see
more
of
a
ship.
A
B
Talent,
the
retention
is
an
enormous
problem
at
all
these
companies,
so
they
don't
like
remote
yet
but
they're,
starting
to
sour
on
the
on
the
co-located
model
and
all
the
disadvantages
yeah
and
and
they
see
that
remote
offers
you
much
easier,
hiring
scaling
and
I.
Think
they're
gonna
realize
exactly
what
you
say:
remote
forces
you
to
do
the
things
you
should
be
doing
anyway,
but
do
them
sooner
exactly.
A
Yeah
and
if
it's
a
forcing
function,
it's
like
you,
don't
you
don't
have
an
option.
I
can't
just
tell
my
admin:
hey,
can
you
do
this?
I
have
to
write
it
down,
yeah
I,
wonder
I
feel
like
it
must
be
just
an
old-school
model
where
most
people,
when
they
were
coming
up
the
way
they
worked.
Wasn't
like
this
and
it's
it's
hard
to
wrap
your
mind
around.
It
must
be
almost
like
languages
like
switching
the
language,
but
but
that
is
encouraging
and
I
think
it's
encouraging
to
see
more
remote.
A
B
The
the
funny
thing
is
I
said
the
earlier
rounds
are
harder.
Incubators
are
the
worst,
so
Y
Combinator
is
a
good
is
a
as
an
exception.
They
they
don't
require
their
their
companies
to
kind
of
get
to
their
offices,
but
most
other
incubators
require
their
companies
to
kind
of
use.
Their
office
facilities
and
I
had
a
few
kind
of
conversations
with
them
and
there's
about
2,000
incubators
in
the
world.
I
only
spoke
to
two
of
them
and
I
said
like.
Why
are
you
doing
that,
like
the
most
successful
incubator
in
the
world?
B
Y
Combinator
is
not
requiring
that.
Why
are
you
doing
that?
Well,
our
investors,
people
that
pay
for
it.
They
want
to
see
the
companies
there
so
they're,
like
they're,
like
running
a
zoo
instead
of
yeah
anything
on
business
outcomes,
so
I
think
I
think
that
attitude
is
gonna
change
dramatically.
Yeah.
A
B
A
Absolutely
it's
interesting.
It
totally
makes
me
want
to
like
explore
the
notion
of
remote
first
incubators
or
remote
first
funds
and
see,
if
there's
any
out
there,
but
also
yeah,
that
that
just
gets
the
wheel
spinning.
So
another
aspect
that
I
was
really
impressed
with
when
I
was
reading
about
what
you
guys
do
and
watching
some
of
the
talks.
You've
given
is
the
kind
of
open
source
business
model
and
I
was
thinking
in
terms
of
four
founders
who
are
in
that
5
to
50
stage.
What
do
you
wish?
B
I
think
there's
two
aspects
to
that:
there's
their
transparency.
We
did
that
in
the
beginning
to
make
sure
that
the
people
from
the
wider
community
could
kind
of
see
what
we
did
as
a
business
and
keep
them
keep
interesting
of
and
able
to
correct
us.
When
we
make
mistakes
and
that's
been
very
successful,
we
now
every
month
we
have
more
than
200
contributions
coming
from
the
wider
community.
What
we
didn't
realize
that
it'd
be
such
a
great
recruiting
tool.
The
last
three
months
we
got
more
than
20,000
applications
had.
B
Regarding
the
business
model,
we
have
an
open
core
business
model.
A
part
of
our
products
is
open,
source
and
part
of
it
is
proprietary.
You
pay
per
user
per
year,
for
it
I
think
that
works
if
you're,
making
something
that
is
going
to
be
used
a
lot
and
you're
going
to
create
a
lot
of
value
and
your
cap
going
to
capture
a
low
percentage
of
that
value.
B
If
you,
if
you
need
a
higher
capture
rate,
it's
probably
better
to
do
something
completely
proprietary,
and
then
we
specify
that
model
as
being
buyer
based
open
core,
where
the
difference
between
the
difference
between
open
source
and
paid
and
even
between
our
different
paid
tiers
is
like.
Who
cares
most
about
the
feature?
If
it's
an
individual
contributor,
there
will
be
open
source.
B
A
B
Think
we're
not
the
best
company
in
growth,
hacking,
I,
think
open,
open
core
is
an
amazing
distribution
model
and
that,
in
combination
with
a
great
way
to
kind
of
install
the
product
quickly
and
keep
it
up
to
date
has
been
has
contributed
to
the
growth.
The
success
of
the
open
source
products
on
which
we
built
so.
A
A
B
B
A
Yeah
I
think
with
the
remote
thing,
one
thing
that
I've
taken
a
lot
time
to
get
around
to
because
I'm
more
camera
shy
is
doing
the
face
to
face,
but
it
makes
such
a
difference
in
culture
and
bonding
doing
doing
video
calls
versus
just
a
phone
call.
So
that's
that's
interesting.
I
feel,
like
several
people,
I've
talked
in
the
last
few
weeks
has
said:
zoom,
okay
in
my
last
question,
so
from
there
for
the
founders
listening
who
are
kind
of
in
that
five
to
fifty
stage.
B
That's
early
for
us
I'm,
not
sure
how
exactly
how
many
people
we
were,
but
we
had
a
quarter
where
we
gonna
toll
it,
where
we
were
totally
missing.
Our
quarter.
I
was
very
worried
about
that.
Ain't
got
a
great
advice
for
my
CEO
co-ceo
coach,
who
said
look
nobody's
gonna,
be
surprised
that
you
miss
a
quarter
here
or
there,
but
they
want
to
see.
Is
that
you
understand
why
that
is
and
what
you're
going
to
do
about
it.
B
So
for
two
weeks,
long,
every
to
every
other
day,
we
had
a
an
hour-long
call
trying
to
understand,
like
every
nook
and
cranny
of
our
sales
process,
all
the
stages
where
things
mistakes
were
happening
and
we
made
a
plan
to
remedy
it
and
at
a
board
meeting,
and
it
didn't
once
hear
like
hey,
you
should
do
more
or
something
like
that
they
saw.
We
were
super
focused
on
it.
In
fact,
the
only
thing
they
said
was
sit.
Don't
don't
do
any
crazy
things,
I
think
this
I
was
so
focused
on
it
that
they
were
afraid.