►
From YouTube: Web3 and Open Source for Green Finance Democratisation
Description
A presentation hosted by the Hyperledger Climate Action and Accounting Special Interest Group on March 21, 2023 with Evercity.io CEO and Co-founder Alexey Shadrin speaking about Web3 and Open Source for Green Finance Democratisation.
If you're new to the Climate Action and Accounting Special Interest Group, you're welcome to get involved. Join the group's list and introduce yourself and take part in discussions. You can sign up at: https://lists.hyperledger.org/g/climate-sig
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----
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A
A
A
So
if
this
is
your
first
call,
please
review
those,
usually
it's
customary
when
I
open
up
these
calls
to
to
see
if
there
are
any
participants
that
are
here
for
the
first
time
to
please
raise
your
hand
and
introduce
yourself
I'd
love
to
hear
a
little
bit
about
how
you
found
out
about
us
and
where
you
where,
where
your
subject
matter,
expertise
is
what
your
interest
is.
Is
there
anybody
on
the
call
for
the
first
time.
A
Sounds
like
no
okay,
all
right
so
I'll
run
through
just
a
couple:
quick
announcements:
we
have
actually
been
invited.
Bert,
Bertrand,
Roo
and
I
have
been
invited
to
participate
in
the
iwa
inner
work.
Alliance
working
group
that's
focused
on
developing
a
carbon
emissions,
token
standards
for
carbon
emissions
tokenization.
So
that's
that's
pretty
exciting
and
we'll
it's
definitely
relevant
to
the
work
that
we're
doing
we're.
A
Also
in
the
process
of
for
those
of
you
who
are
on
the
presentation
two
weeks
ago
from
Guardian
and
the
HR
Foundation
we're
looking
into
exploring
how
to
integrate
the
guardian
into
the
climate
accounting
solution
that
we've
developed
for
for
tracking
emissions.
Acrosscope
three
and
we'll
be
having
a
conversation
this
week
about
that.
So
that's
that's,
potentially
really
useful
tool
that
could
help
us
kind
of
move
forward
with
some
of
the
development
that
we've
done.
A
C
B
And
and
stuff
because
you
know
I
think
it's
very
important
for
us
to
understand
where
this
whole,
you
know,
refi
space
is
coming
from
what
is
important,
what
we
should
consider
while
building
you
know
the
applications
and
and
stuff
so
how
many
of
you
guys
are
like
Builders
people
who
are
like
actually
building
the
stuff?
Maybe
how
can
we,
you
know
understand
that?
B
B
B
B
C
Oh
building
so
I'm,
building
and
and
environment.
Let's
see
lifetime
comprehensive
environmental
impact,
calculator
that
connects
to
a
carbon
token
market
and
carbon
I
have
a
whole
carbon
Standard
carbon
token
standard
that
I
sent
out
to
Vera
and
icbcm
back
September
October
of
last
year.
So
I'm
trying
to
build
nice.
B
B
C
B
Okay,
that's
amazing,
amazing
background
and
a
very
interesting
story.
I
am
quite
curious.
You
know
what
you
know,
how
how
you
came
across
a
blockchain,
but
let
me
then
first
tell
you
my
story,
so
you
can
better
understand
who
I
am
and
where
I'm
coming
from,
and
then
we
can
discuss
more
on
the
topic
of
of
today's
meeting
so
started
my
career
in
actually
Commodities
training
in
junior
in
Switzerland,
and
that
was
very
interesting
because
it
showed
how
goods
are
moving.
B
So
I
quit
this
company
and
started
my
own
organization,
which
was
a
carbon
fund
and
this
carbon
fund
developed
climate
projects,
nature
based,
but
also
looked
at
Technology
based
Solutions
and
projects,
and
so
we
started
working
with
a
big
multinational
corporations
like
Alcoa
Union
lever
and
PepsiCo
and
Bloomberg
and
many
others
helping
them
to
actually
understand
their
sustainability
risks,
their
emission
reductions
potential.
And
maybe
you
know
that
saying
that
reduce
what
you
can
and
offset
what
you
can.
B
B
You
know
pretty
early
also
for
carbon
markets
and
clients
had
all
sorts
of
motivations
to
buy
carbon
offsets.
Not
only
kind
of
you
know
what
we
see
now,
but
a
lot
of
marketing
a
lot
of
GR.
A
lot
of
other
things
that
actually
drive
the
demand
back
then,
and
then
we
started
to
get
Global.
We
started
to
participate
in
the
U.N
climate
conference
format
in
some
of
the
other
U.N
associations
and
initiatives
like
un
Global
compact.
B
It's
an
organization
which
unites
a
lot
of
businesses
on
the
agenda
of
sustainable
development
and
by
the
way
science-based
targets,
and
this
kind
of
thing
so
actually
U.N.
Global
compact
is
one
of
the
global
organizations
that
actually
promoted.
You
know
science-based
targets
and
carbon
offsetting
and
stuff
like
that,
and
also
some
of
the
others
organizations.
So
we
went
to
this
Global
level.
We
were
full
of
enthusiasm
and
we
thought
everyone
really
wants
to
save
the
world,
but
we
realized-
maybe
it's
not
the
case
for
everyone.
B
So,
as
I
mentioned,
there
were
all
sorts
of
other
motivations
of
buyers,
of
carbon
credits
and
stuff
like
that
and
also
their
war,
and
still
there
are
many
inefficiencies
which
I
will
cover
in
a
few
minutes.
So
after
that,
after
Paris
climate
conference,
which
was
like
the
really
historical
one,
because
the
Paris
agreement
was
adopted-
and
you
may
know
right
what
the
Paris
agreement
is,
it
limits
the
global
warming
or
at
least
tries
to
and
provides
new
mechanisms
for
carbon
financing,
and
this
was
largely
based
on
the
Kyoto
Protocol.
B
As
you
know,
and
Kyoto
Protocol
is
largely
based
on
previous
initiatives
like
the
U.S
Initiative,
for
you
know
those
controlling
the
the
sulfur
emissions
and
trying
to
actually
solve
the
acid
rain
problem,
and
that
really
worked
out
so
now.
Paris
agreement
is
another
iteration
of
those
systems
of
those
markets
and
the
voluntary
carbon
Market
actually
I
would
say,
was
a
spin-off
or
is
a
spin-off
of
Kyoto
Protocol,
because
everything
that
we're
using
right
now
on
the
voluntary
carbon
Market.
B
Those
methodologies
that
we're
now
trying
to
digitize
all
of
the
processes
and
stuff
they
all
actually
come
from
basic
Kyoto
Protocol
mechanisms
and
ideas.
So
I,
just
I
recently
was
in
Denver
at
a
carbon
like
sorry,
a
climate
forum
for
refi
startups,
and
some
of
the
startups
approached
me
asking
to
validate
their
digital
methodologies
and
stuff
their
ideas.
B
So
you
know
there
were
a
lot
of
smart
people
who
dedicated
their
lives
to
this
industry
to
this
knowledge,
and
it
all
started,
of
course
not
in
90s,
where
when
Kyoto
Protocol
was
actually
introduced,
but
it
actually
started
earlier.
You
know
in
in
70s,
I
guess
and
it
all
comes
it's
connected
with
the
Austrian
economic,
school
and
Ronald
calls
and
the
concept
of
including
transactional
costs
into
the
pricing
of
goods
and
services.
So
that
was
one
of
this
basic
ideas.
B
That
actually
is
you
know
developing
more
and
more
and
we're
now
seeing
not
only
carbon
but
biodiversity
attempts
to
include
biodiversity
into
economic
relations
of
economic
agents.
So
just
look
into
that.
Look
at
what
have
been
developed
by
previous
generations
and
people
who
really
you
know,
dedicated
their
lives
to
that
and
try
to
innovate,
based
on
that
and
not
to
create
something
really
really
new
unattached
from
the
reality,
because
you
know
even
the
those
artists,
like
my
levage,
for
example,
who
actually
introduced
this
black
Square.
B
He
actually
learned
how
to
paint-
and
he
was
you
know-
well
educated
in
painting,
so
he
could
paint
you
everything
literally
and
then
he
painted
the
the
black
Square.
So
it's
kind
of
the
case
for
for
refi,
and
if
we
want
to
build
something
meaningful
and
something
that
people
will
use
as
an
open
source
around
the
globe,
then
it
should
be
aligned
with
core
values,
principles
and
processes
that
were
developed
back
then.
So
that's
it's
a
very
important
thing.
But
to
go
back
to
my
story,
we
started
after
Paris
climate
conference.
B
We
started
to
look
at
Innovations
and
invested
in
some
of
the
companies.
Some
of
it
was
Hardware.
Some
of
it
was
software,
and
one
of
the
companies
actually
made
a
breakthrough.
The
company
was
called
Dao,
ipci
and
ipci
stands
for
integrated
platform
for
climate
initiatives
and
the
team
behind
that
and
the
concept
behind
it
was
really
Visionary,
because
this
Dao
was
established
actually
in
2016
and
it's
actually
facilitated
the
world's
first
carbon
credit
transaction
in
2017
in
I
think
March
2017..
B
So
that
was
officially
acknowledged
by
the
World
Bank
people
by
the
UN,
the
company
and
myself.
We
were
invited
to
several
events
around
the
globe,
so
one
of
them
was
actually
innovate
for
climate
in
Barcelona,
which
was
the
leading
carbon
Innovation
conference
and
still
is,
but
because
of
kovit
they
they've
hosted
two
conferences
online.
So
I
guess
it
was
not
that
you
know
viral,
but
actually
that
that
was
the
main
Innovation
carbon
conference
and
we
met
with
all
of
the
market
players.
We
met
with
heads
of
Standards
David
Antonio
from
Vera.
B
We
met
with
gold
standard
people.
We
met
with
all
the
exchanges
and
project
developers,
so
the
discussion
started
actually
in
2017
and
if
someone
is
saying
that
refi
was
born,
like
you
know,
one
or
two
years
ago,
it
might
be
true
in
terms
of
the
massive
movement
but
the
first
refi
project
started
to
pop
up
even
earlier
so
2016
even
15.,
and
that
was
a
major
breakthrough.
But
that
was
another
learning
that
no
one
really
was
waiting
for
us
and
the
market
was
pretty
oligopolistic
by
its
nature.
B
So
the
main
players
and
they're
still
there
controlled
the
largest
shares
of
the
market.
And
you
know
if
you
learn
the
economic
theory
that
you
know
that
oligopoly
and
Monopoly
is
is:
are
not
the
most
effective
systems
of
distribution
of
resources,
so
that's
same
case
for
carbon
and
other
markets
and
people
back
then
were
really
afraid
of
blockchain.
They
were
afraid
of
Ico
wave,
they
were
afraid
of
new
technologies
and
of
course
they
were
afraid
of
being
phased
out
out
of
the
market
and
the
message
that
we
brought
to
them.
B
You
know
we
had
the
wrong
messaging
because
we
came
there.
We
were
surrounded
by
all
of
these
people
and
we
said
now
guys
blockchain
is
going
to
disrupt
you
all
and
we
will
not
need
you.
So
sorry,
we
don't
need
Auditors,
we
have
digital
mrv,
we
don't
need
project
developers,
we
have
digital
methodologies,
we
don't
need,
you
know,
literally
anyone
just
a
project
owner
owner
of
the
land
and
the
end
user.
So
all
of
you
guys,
we
don't
need
you,
and
that
was
a
very
bad
messaging.
B
You
know,
and
it
turned
out
to
be
a
actually
a
mistake.
So
that's
another
learning,
that's
I
want
to
communicate.
You
know
from
my
experience
that
even
now
we
don't
have
to
you,
know,
phase
out
everyone
and
disrupt
and
just
exclude
everyone,
because
if
you
start
building
refi
projects-
and
you
start-
you
will
start
having
your
first
clients
or
Partners-
you
know
somewhere
in
Africa
or
you
know
in
other
parts
of
the
world.
B
You
will
understand
how
important
it
is
to
have
the
domain
expertise,
the
industry,
expertise,
the
methodology,
wise
expertise
to
be
on
the
ground.
You
know
to
talk
to
these
people
and
etc,
etc.
It
doesn't
really
work
in
a
fully
automated
Manner
and
no
one
has
really
proved
the
the
opposite.
You
know
right.
E
B
We
still
need
all
of
the
players
that
are
currently
there,
but
we
can
make
their
life
easier
and
open
source
is
something
that
can
really
play
a
big
role
here.
A
huge
role,
so
I
want
to
make
a
short
pause
here,
and
maybe
you
have
some
other
opinions
and
statements
or
questions
regarding,
like
my
my
experience
and
stuff
yeah.
A
Yeah
I've
got
I've
got
a
question.
You
talked
about
the
messaging
that
didn't
work,
I'm
curious
to
hear,
and
you
spoke
to
it
that
to
make
their
life
easier,
but
what
really
helped
move
the
needle
to
to
kind
of
achieve,
buy
and
Achieve
group
of
concept
achieve
it
dot.
You
know
early
adoption
amongst
these,
you
know
invested.
You
know,
stakeholders
that
have
just
been
around
well.
B
You
know
Sharon,
that's
a
very
interesting
question
and
I
think
in
2017.
We
just
faced
this
problem
that
many
Venture
investors
are
aware
of
when
you're
introducing
some
Innovation
earlier
than
it.
It
could
be
adopted
by
the
market.
You
know
so
I
think
the
positioning
was
wrong.
I
think
people
were
afraid
of
blockchain,
because
the
Ico
thing
was
really.
You
know
very
viral
and
loud
and
stuff,
and
also
you
know,
the
market
was
not
really
moving
because
carbon
markets
guys
I
I'm,
not
sure
how.
B
How
long
are
you
following
them,
but
for
more
than
10
years
the
market
was
really
stable
and
it
was
like
you
know:
300
million
and
500
million
and
400
million
and
six,
so
it
it
was
growing
or
not.
Growing
was
like
really
flat
and
it
somehow
climbed
up
to
a
billion
and
then
like
we
had
this
twofold
growth
in
in
the
recent
years.
B
So
I
guess
this
is
one
of
the
factors,
but
you
know
in
2017,
I
met
a
guy
there
in
the
Innovative
climate,
the
core
carbon
person
related
to
Innovations
and
what
he
said
to
me
is
like
this
thing
will
come
in
five
years
because
of
the
reasons
I
mentioned,
also
regulation,
you
know
and
the
maturity
of
Technology
as
well,
because
back
then
technology
was
not
that
user
friendly.
If
you
remember
you
know,
a
metamask
didn't
have
the
app
and
the
overall
interface
was
really
kind
of
not
that
good.
B
As
now
you
know-
and
that
was
the
case
with
everything
everything
you
know-
every
part
of
the
blockchain
infrastructure
it
was
like
you
know,
people
are
still
talking
about
interfaces
and
user
experience
even
now
right,
but
back
then,
five
years
ago
it
was
very
basic.
Very
you
know
very
generic,
so
people
really
need
this
experience
and
I
think
this
is
one
of
the
feedback
that
I
also
got
because
just
sharing
my
experience.
B
Oh,
we
had
a
demo
in
2017
for
a
very
big
player
in
the
carbon
market
and
we
totally
failed
because
of
the
interfaces
and
they
just
didn't
understand
the
thing
you
know:
okay,
we're
you
know
doing
taking
hands,
making
a
copy.
You
know
sending
it
somewhere,
some
Fields,
so
our
developers,
they
thought
it's
genius,
it's
like
a
breakthrough
and
it
was,
but
in
terms
of
user
experience,
it
was
nothing
and
people
just
didn't
understand.
What
is
that?
What
you
know
how
to
use
it?
Why?
B
Why
is
it
needed
to
be
introduced?
You
know,
so
that's
another
learning
that
I
had
you
know
that
user
experience,
user
interface
is
key
and
I
just
returned
from
Japan,
where
the
customer
is
not
only
right.
He
is
God.
So
I
think
this
is
what
we
need
to
adopt
in
the
blockchain
industry
that
the
customer
has
got,
and
we
really
need
to
make
things
really
simple,
really
Native.
You
know
for
more
people
to
use
it
and
more
companies
to
use
it.
B
So
also
that
was
a
major
fail
that
you
know
taught
me
a
lot
and
now
in
every
city
we're
making
a
very
big
Accent
on
user
interfaces
as
well
and
also
for
open
source.
You
know,
because
open
source,
usually
it's
something
on
the
GitHub
and
it's
great
if
it
has
documentation,
but
usually
you
know,
even
documentation
is
not
that
good
or
is
done
for
Developers,
and
it
doesn't
really
help
others
to
to
use
the
open
source
code.
B
So
on
that
side
we
also
need
to
improve
you
know
and
have
well-documented
stuff
and
ideally
something
that
Guardian
is
doing.
You
know
why
I
like
what
they're
doing
is
that
they're
trying
to
implement
a
low
code
or
no
code
approach
to
that
and
that's
what
the
Dao
ipci
project
had
actually
introduced.
B
One
of
these
ideas
that
we
had
in
this
Dao
ipci
project
is
that
you
know
all
of
the
you
know
everyone
should
can
should
have
an
opportunity
to
easily
launch
and
instantly
launch
their
environmental
programs
and
apps
on
this
dial,
and
that
was
the
the
basic
concept
that
we
had
and
from
the
very
beginning,
this
the
concept
that
the
company
was
open
source.
So
everything
was
open
source
and
we
really
had
hard
times
with
some
shareholders
that
were
lawyers
to
explain
them.
B
B
And
more
open
source
projects
and
that's
what
we
really
need
while
doing
our
open
source,
we
have
to
think
about
the
user,
who
is
God
not
only
friend
or
you
know,
contributor
or
someone
a
is
actually
God,
because
he
will
need
to
use
it
and
that's
that's
a
very
important
thing
if
we
want
to
build
open
source.
So
if
you
have
any,
you
have
any
other
quick
questions
and
I'll
jump
to
the
to
the
next
part
of
the
story
and
some
next
outcomes
that
I
want
to
highlight.
From
my.
E
B
B
B
So
you
know
we
realized
that
blockchain
and
open
source
is
really
an
enabler
for
climate
Finance.
Based
on
this
experience
that
we
had
with
the
first
transaction
and
we
started
to
to
participate
in
the
UN
protest
every
year,
so
we
went
to
the
U.N
climate
conference,
I
missed
only
one
in
Morocco
and
then
I
visited
all
of
them,
and
that
was
really
a
mind-opening
experience,
because
when
we
start
building
open
source
and
this
company
I
thought
okay
open
source,
but
I
didn't
really
realize.
B
Why
are
we
doing
this
open
source
and
who
might
need
it?
You
know,
except
for
developers?
Maybe
they
can
do
a
fork,
do
something
else,
blah
blah
blah.
So
it
was
very
abstract
to
me
because
I'm
not
a
developer
and
when
I
started
to
present
these
things
at
the
climate
conference
and
first
we
started
like
with
a
booth
about
blockchain
and
stuff
like
that.
Come
to
us,
we
have
blockchain
and
cookies
and
and.
E
B
Yeah,
but
you
know
I'm
giving
out
swag,
and
that
was
pretty
weird,
because
at
the
climate
conference
there
was
no
other,
you
know
blockchain
company
back
then
in
2017
and
people
were
really
interested.
So
we
started
to
make
workshops
we
started
to
make,
like
you
know,
press
conferences
and
stuff
with
some
other
friends
from
the
climate
chain.
B
But
right
now
the
U.N
person
masamba
he
kind
of
resigned
from
the
climate
chain
Coalition
because
they
started
something
bigger
in
the
UN,
which
is
the
UN
Global
digital
Innovation,
Hub
and
I,
encourage
you
guys
all
to
collaborate
with
both
the
CCC,
the
climate
change
Coalition
and
if
you're
lucky
also
try
to
collaborate
with
the
UN
Global
digital
Innovation,
Hub
and
I
know
that
Martin
Weinstein
is
one
of
the
key
people
there.
So
that's
a
very
good
entry
point
to
this
initiative,
so
we
started
to
go
to
co-op.
B
We
started
to
talk
to
people
and
we
started
to
make
a
lot
of
presentations.
So
a
lot
of
people
came
to
these
presentations
and
then
I
realized.
Why
is
it
important
to
make
open
source
because,
like
once,
we
had
a
really
big
room
for
500
people
and
it
was
like
not
all
crowded,
but
there
were
a
lot
of
people
and
when
we
stopped,
you
know
highlighting
our
use
cases
and
stuff.
B
So
we
went
down
to
the
to
the
people
and
they
actually
surrounded
us
I
think
it
was
2018
or
2019,
and
these
were
people
from
various
African
countries
from
South
America
and
they
all
surrounded
us
and
we
had
like
a
two-hour.
You
know
conversation
which
was
really
insightful
for
me
and
what
I
learned
is
that
people
in
these
countries
they
don't
really
want
the
reddish
solutions
that
you
come.
You
know
from
the
global
North
and
Supply
them,
something
that
they
need
to
pay
for
and
just
use
and
pay
for
five
fees
and
stuff.
B
Like
that,
that's
what
has
been
happening
for
a
lot
of
time.
You
know
and
that's
what
is
still
happening,
because
if
you
come
to
cop,
you
will
see
a
lot
of
arguments
between
people
from
Global,
North
and
Global
South,
and
what
these
people
are
desperately
craving
for
is
what
it's
a
quote.
You
know
they
said
we
need
knowledge
and
we
need
technology.
We
have
smart
people
in
in
Africa.
B
You
know
we
have
smart
people
in
Asia
in
South
America
we
have
developers,
we
have
like
you,
know
energy
opportunity
to
to
actually
build
stuff,
but
what
we
lack
is
knowledge
and
technology.
So
this
is
what
actually
open
source
can
deliver.
You
know
knowledge
and
technology,
and
then
you
will
gain
like
you
know
thousands
and
thousands
of
followers
contributors
and
stuff
like
that.
B
You
know:
go
to
these
countries,
go
to
the
climate
conference
or
some
other
formats
where
you
can
meet
a
lot
of
people
from
indigenous
communities
from
you
know,
various
other
Industries
project
developers
landowners
and
talk
to
them
and
try
to
understand
their
main
desires
there,
and
when
you
understand
them,
when
you
look
into
their
eyes,
you
know
it
will
be
clear
for
you.
What
you
need
to
do
in
terms
of
your
you
know,
open
source
applications
and
how
you
need
to
treat
them.
I
can
give
you
an
example.
B
B
He
knew
there
in
central
Africa
and
you
know
engaging
very
actively
with
this
community
asking
what
they
need
and
stuff
like
that
and
now,
even
without
blockchain,
he
created
like
a
huge
Discord
Community,
where
people
started
to
be
like
a
very
active
participants
and
they
don't
get
any
tokens,
they
don't
get.
Any
rewards,
but
they
like
the
way
he
you
know,
treats
them,
as
you
know,
equal
people
and
just
sharing
the
knowledge
and
you
know
showing
them
the
benefits
and
stuff.
B
Just
you
know,
with
the
proper
kind
of
attitude
the
proper
kind
of
software
that
these
people
can
use
and
and
big
part
of
it
is
an
open
source
as
well.
So
that's
really
important
to
know
what
the
people
want
and
need
to
talk
to
them
and
make
this
really
accessible
knowledge
and
technology.
So
there
are
lots
of
you
know,
companies
that
I
know
from
the
core
blockchain
space.
They
organize
a
lot
of
schools,
a
lot
of
hackathons
and
that's
an
opportunity.
B
That's
what,
for
example,
African
countries
really
really
need
you
know,
and
not
only
learn
how
to
code
but
learned
how
to
collaborate
and
co-create
together
in
a
very
user-friendly
manner.
So
that's
exactly
what
is
needed
and
ending
on
my
story
so
based
on
those
many
many
conversations
with
people
from
around
the
globe.
Many
insights
we
started
every
city
two
years
ago
in
order
to
solve
the
entry
barrier,
problems,
the
knowledge
barrier
and
the
cost
barrier
that
prevent
more
companies
to
enter
the
green
Finance
space.
B
To
start,
you
know,
raising
using
green
bonds
or
Star
tissuing
carbon
credits,
so
education
and
making
things
really
simple
play
a
very
big
role
in
our
company,
as
well
as
the
open
source
component,
and
we
have
a
sustainable
Finance
protocol
that
we
started
to
create
on
polka
dot
and
now
we're
continuing
on
hedera.
So
adding
hedera
capabilities
and
our
idea
is
simple.
We
want
to
create
a
protocol
that
actually
helps
to
roll
out.
B
You
know
any
apps
related
to
issuance
of
various
green
Finance
instruments,
so
green
bonds,
sustainability,
linked
bonds
and
also
various
carbon
instruments,
we're
adding
those
things
to
our
protocol,
where
we
are
collaborating
with
the
guys
who
want
to
use
them.
So,
for
example,
we
have
never
worked
on
the
green
sukuk
side.
You
know,
sukuk
is
a
who
knows
what
is
green
so
cook
by
the
way.
Who
can
tell
me.
B
I
know
Islamic
law
right,
so
that's
an
Islamic
kind
of
loan
yeah.
It
has
very
specific
Islamic
rules
in
it,
but
it's
an
Islamic
death
instrument.
Actually,
so
we
never
expected,
but
one
of
the
you
know-
people
just
one
guy
just
contacted
me
and
regarding
the
protocol
and
started
to
build
a
green
so
cook,
based
on
what
we
have
built.
You
know
before
and
stuff
like
that.
B
A
A
Does
every
city
have
a
way
of
of
kind
of
fragmenting
larger
loans
into
many
different
loans
and
being
able
to
serve
the
the
ability
to
kind
of
get
your
scale
that
that
large
monetary
amount
to
to
larger
numbers
of
projects
that
don't
need
so
much?
But
you
could
definitely
use
the
preferred
interest
rate.
B
The
financial
conditions
are
not
favorable
at
all,
and
that's
you
know
something
that
we
cannot
actually
use.
So
these
were
the
you
know
the
problems
and
these
problems
can
really
be
solved.
You
know
by
blockchain
and
fractionalization,
is
you
know
one
thing
and
also
securitization?
So
when
you
actually
combine
like
smaller
loans,
like
100
small
loans,
and
then
there
is
a
bank
who
is
issuing
a
green
bond
to
refinance
those
smaller
loans?
You
know
that's
also
a
very
interesting
use
cases.
B
The
use
case
that
many
in
the
financial
industry
are
are
talking
about
and
thinking
about.
So
this
is
truly
one
of
the
opportunities
to
connect
smaller
scale
projects
and
huge
Banks.
So
if
you
want
to
do
that,
that's
one
of
the
directions
that
you
might
take
and,
more
importantly,
you
know
these
big
Banks,
big
investors.
B
They
want
to
invest,
they
want
to
deploy
Capital,
but
because
of
those
restrictions,
they
cannot
actually
deploy
it
and
they
cannot
find
enough
projects,
so
they
desperately
need
the
toolkit
that
will
enable
them
to
work
with
smaller
projects
package
them
into
a
bigger
like
investment
vehicles.
Do
everything
in
a
proper
Greenway,
that's
very
important
to
work
with
institutionals,
so
you
have
to
you
know,
adhere
to
those
green
Finance
standards,
whatever
they
are,
and
also
it's
important
for
them
to
accumulate
data
sources
right.
So
everyone
is
talking
about.
We
need
the
granule
data.
B
If
we
are
investing-
or
you
know,
refinancing
those
packages
with
hundreds
or
thousands,
smaller
loans
and
companies,
we
need
to
understand
what
happens
in
each
of
them
right
and
get
the
data
almost
online.
You
know
in
a
really
timely
manner,
so
that
is
very
important
and
that's
one
way
of
doing
this.
But
another
way
of
doing
this
is
through
new
types
of
mechanisms
and
new
types
of
investment
vehicles.
B
So
I'm
a
lot
will
come
from
the
defy
Market
actually
and
when
we
look
at
clementa,
of
course,
they
might
have
done
a
lot
of
things
wrong
and
now
they're
kind
of
paying
for
it.
So
that's
yeah,
that's
what
they
have
to
face,
but
what
they
did
actually
their
main
Innovation
is
that
they
breached
a
defy
mechanisms
and
green
Finance
markets,
and
this
is
I
think
is
going
to
be
a
trend
because
all
of
these
Banks
all
of
these
financial
institutions,
they're
really
slow
and
adoption-
really
takes
a
lot
of
time.
B
So
it
moves
somehow,
but
it's
still
not
there,
and
when
we
talk
with
these
Banks
and
financial
institutions,
they
always
value
two
things:
a
risk
and
Innovation
content
and
usually
the
risk
part
actually
kills
most
of
the
Innovation
content,
because
you
know
they
want
to
do
just
smaller
steps,
small
innovations
that
will
lead
to
a
bigger
Innovation,
and
this
is
not
like
a
disruption
right.
This
this
is
not
does
not
really
solve
the
key
problems.
It
can
solve
the
problem,
but
we
need
to
get
there.
B
C
B
So
if
we
will
be
able
to
channel
people's
kind
of
greediness
in
a
good
way,
I
mean,
like
you,
know:
high
high
risk
profile
of
crypto
investors
and
stuff
like
that.
If
we
somehow
can
connect
it
with
green
finance
and
I
mean
not
only
carbon,
you
know,
but
also
other
credits,
and
if
we
make
sure
that
those
assets
are
really
making
the
real
like
real
life
impact.
With
all
the
methodologies
we
have
with
dmrv
with
other
players,
you
know
verifying
this
sometimes
on
the
ground
and
we
still
need
them.
B
Then
we're
gonna
succeed
and
this
has
a
tremendous
opportunity
for
scaling,
because
you
know
if
it
could
be
replicated
by
other
people
users
around
the
globe
if
it
can
bring
liquidity
to
the
core.
You
know
protocols
that
could
make
this
happen.
Yes,
this
would
be
like
a
major
victory
and
I
think
the
trend
that
we
will
be
seeing
like
more
and
more
refi
stuff.
You
know
until
the
moment
where
actually
D5
becomes
refined
and
we
actually
need
that.
B
You
know,
and
if
we
look
at
refi
as
a
new
type
of
financial
industry,
then
we
can
look.
If
we
want
to
predict
the
trends
we
can
look
at
traditional
financial
industry,
which
is
becoming
Greener
and
Greener
and
at
some
point
we'll
have
to
Green
their
whole
portfolios,
and
there
are
many
banks.
Asset
managers
who
have
committed
to
that
so
I
think
defy
and
blockchain
will
also.
You
know
at
some
point
will
realize
that
it's
it's
important
because
we
cannot
live
as
our
physical
bodies
on
chain
right
and
we
have
to
take
care
about.
B
What's
going
on
around
us,
you
know
so
that's
you
know
one
of
the
forecasts
and
I
think
that's
the
most
exciting
and
important
thing,
but
I
want
to
warn
you
not
to
go
too
much
into
the
defy.
You
know
space
because
it
can
be
considered
a
scam
it
can.
You
know
it
can
actually
spoil
the
whole
thing
and
that's
you
you
don't
have
to
do
and
it's
a
that's
why
you
know
all
of
the
statements
that
I
did
it's
important
to
know.
B
Is
a
good
way
to
kind
of
you
know,
enter
those
markets
because
again
many
people
think
that
if
they
use
your
proprietary
Tech
they
will
lose
their
independence
and
they
will
there
will
be
a
vendor
look
which
is
in
most
cases.
You
know
right
in
terms
of
Open
Source,
everyone
can
have
win-win
situation,
and
that
goes
very
much
in
line
with
the
core.
B
You
know:
sustainable
development
goal
values,
and
the
last
thing
I
want
to
mention
is
that
if
you're
truly
build
staff
open
source,
then
you
endorse
will
be
always
open
to
you
and
that's
very
important,
because
it's
where
you
can
meet
your
you
know,
fellow
Builders
fellow,
you
know:
users
Advocates
governments,
literally
anyone
and
it's
it's
really
good.
So
I
encourage
you
to
work
more
with
un
agencies,
but
for
that
big
part
of
your
work
has
to
be
open
source
and
through
open
source.
D
B
It
depends
on
the
case
you
know,
indeed
in
ASG
they're
in
green
Finance.
There
are
lots
of
Standards,
but
if,
if
we
have
a
closer
look
we'll
see
that
their
leading
standards,
there
is
like
a
high
quality
cohort
of
Standards
there's
like
a
medium,
you
know
the
most
popular
standards
and
stuff
like
that.
B
So
when
I
was
telling
to
this
a
refined
newcomer
guys,
so
look
at
CDM,
it's
actually
something
that
you
know
we
we
did
and
we
looked
at
most
of
the
standards
and
we
tried
to
understand
what
similar
similarities
do
they
have.
So
in
our
work.
We
do
a
lot
of
generalization
and
this
is
what
I
think
we
need
for
open
source
stuff
as
well
to
be
really
Universal.
So
we
don't
have
to
only
look
at
one
standard.
B
We
have
to
look
at
the
principles
that
those
standards
we're
using
to
build
themselves
and
make
credible,
and
when
we
do
that,
we
will
see
that
most
of
these
standards,
they're
Universal,
so
that's
I,
think
key
when
creating
open
source
stuff
as
well,
and
that's
what
I
mean
when
I
say
that
we
need
to
stand
on
the
shoulders
of
giants
so
respect
those
principles
and
build
on
on
top
of
them
make
them
sharper
make
them.
Even
you
know
more
efficient,
that's
yeah,
that's
it.
B
This
is
what
it
is
and
regarding
impact,
we
also
use
a
couple
of
impact
indicators
and
also,
of
course,
sdgs,
because
sdgs
they're,
the
main
you
know,
Global
framework
for
many
things.
I
think
sdgs
have
a
lot
of
potential,
I
mean
sustainable
development
goals,
and
you
probably
may
know
that
they
also
have
targets.
So
you
might
also
look
at
Targets
as
well
and
for
each
goal,
and
what
makes
sdg
so
unique
is
that
every
country
around
the
world
have
has
agreed
on
them.
You
know
and
sdgs,
among
with
the
Paris
agreement.
B
Those
are
two
Global
Frameworks
that
people
around
the
world
share
and
they
share
them.
You
know
without
exception,
so
this
makes
it
a
very
Universal
very
useful
framework
to
follow,
but
the
difficulties
start
to
come
up
when
you
look
deeper
into
each
Target
and
indicators
and
and
stuff
like
that.
Okay,.
A
One
quick
question:
you
mentioned
this
idea
of
the
the
need
for
securitization
of
of
smaller
impact
project
sustainability
projects.
Is
there
any
to
your
knowledge
to
anybody
making
Headway
in
this
particular
space
that
we
could
look
at?
Is
there
any?
Are
there
any
successful
models
out
there
or
anything
off
the
top
of
your
head?
I
know
I'm
kind
of
putting
you
on
the
spot.
A
Know
so
yeah
so,
for
example,
if
you're,
if
you
are
looking
at
technology
to
lower
the
methane
emissions
from
from
oil
and
gas
field
right
and
say
you
know
that
technology
is,
you
know,
cost
a
million
dollars.
You
know,
so
you
you
want
to.
You
know,
develop
a
way
to
kind
of
securitize
90
oil
fields
to
make
it
interesting
to
you
know:
Blended
Finance,
you
know
vehicle
or
or
sustainable
link
below
their
bond.
A
B
Yeah
so,
first
of
all
this
kind
of
groupings
they
existed,
even
in
the
carbon
world,
without
blockchain
and
even
in
CDM
there
were,
like
you,
know,
aggregated
projects
and
stuff.
So
again,
you
know
we
kind
of
look
at
this,
but
if
you
want
to
look
more
at
innovations
that
come
from
the
you
know,
climate
Finance
space
I
advise
you
to
look
at
the
cases
in
the
climate
Finance
lab.
B
They
are
really
Innovative.
They
don't
have
specifically
like
blockchain
Focus
actually,
but
they
are
really
cool,
Think
Tank,
where
you
can
actually
learn
a
lot
about
this
kind
of
Innovations
and
what's
going
on
and
I
can
remember,
there
were
some
similar
projects
to
what
you
mentioned.
Actually
okay,
great,
but
you
know
what
I
want
to
say
is
that
many
banks
really
want
to
do
that,
but
they
don't
have
too
many
examples.
B
D
C
Okay
and
it's
basically
because
a
democratized
digital
bank
would
be
one
that
makes
Investments
where
the
invest,
where
you
know
the
people
who
are
investing
into
that
bank
tell
them
to,
and
so
they
wouldn't
be
any
runaway
fossil
fuel
Investments,
for
example,
and
so
I
put
in
the
chat
questions
about
create.
You
know
helping
to
find
these
Banks
so
that
we
can
invest
in
them
so
that
we
can
see
if
they're
Democratic
and
what
are
some
of
the
problems
that
could
happen
like
with
digital
Banks,.
B
Yeah
so
yeah
so
I
guess
there
are.
There
are
some
of
these
Banks,
but
also
there
are
old
school
Banks
and
we
need
to
do
something
with
them
right,
so
we
always
shared
the
approach
that
we
should
actually
work
with
these
guys,
but
just
like
tell
them
what
needs
to
be
done,
you
know
highlighting
the
benefits.
That
was
that's
what
I
was
doing
during
my
whole
life.
You
know,
I
was
always
telling
them.
You
know,
hey
guys,
you
know
this
is
how
we
can
do
it.
This
is
very
exciting.
B
B
You
know
the
the
the
the
Legacy
Banks
into
Green,
Banks
and
they're
doing
actually
a
lot,
but
we
need
to
help
them
somehow
and
that's
why
I
think
you
know
the
what
hyperledger
is
doing
is
a
super
important
work
and
you
know
I
I
support
this
approach
very
very
much,
but
also
we
need
to
leave
as
an
example
right
because,
when
clemadau
and
some
other
folks,
you
know
they
did
some
remarkable
things
and
achievements
banned
Legacy
players,
they
started
to
move.
You
know
and
started
to
think.
B
B
Yeah,
so
what
can
I
say?
You
know:
we've
seen
that
banks
are
freezing
funds
and
not
only
digital
ones.
Right,
centralized
Banks
are
freezing
a
lot
of
funds
as
well,
and
we
know
a
lot
of
recent
cases
right,
no
need
to
tell
you.
I
can
just
show
you
my
cup,
so
you
know
this
is
actually
one
of
the
benefits
of
decentralization
and
if
we
are,
if
we
can
truly
make
you
know
decentralized
protocols
for
the
value
exchange
like
Bitcoin
right,
we
will
never
Bitcoin
can
never
freeze
your
funds
right.
B
So
that's
pretty
cool
and
I
guess.
The
answer
would
be
again
open
source,
decentralization
building,
new
types
of
financial.
You
know
mechanisms
that
would
be
actually
connected
to
the
real
world
by
the
real
impact
that
they're
making-
and
that's
you
know
goes
back
to
the
trend.
I
highlighted
is
something
that
we
need.
B
If
you
talk
to
these
guys
again,
you
can,
you
know,
give
them
example
of
Silicon
Valley
bank
and
then
an
example
of
Bitcoin
that
no
one
can
really
freeze
your
Bitcoin.
You
know
funds
and
stuff.
So
that's
that's
I,
think
a
good
argument,
but
in
general
none
of
the
banks
can
guarantee
that
they
will
not
freeze
your
funds,
because
there
is
another
saying
when
you
you're
sending
your
money
to
the
bank.
It's
not
your
money
anymore.
It's
the
money
owned
by
the
bank
and
the
bank
is
actually
using
this
money.
B
C
That's
the
reason
for
my
second
question,
because
you
should
be
able
to
just
go
ahead
and
click
on
you
know
open
an
app
and
click
on.
You
know
I
want
to
find
a
Greener
Bank
than
the
one
that
I'm
invested
in
that
just
decided
to
go
for
fossil
fuel
Investments.
So
I
would
like
that
app
to
say:
okay
well,
I
found
a
green
bank
that
will
do
the
swap
that
you're
trying
to
do
so.
I'm
I'm,
offering
my
bank
a
swap
out.
You
know,
I'll,
take
your
bad,
your
bad
notes
on
housing.
C
I'll,
take
your
housing
problems
away,
you
give
them
the
mortgage
back
to
them
and
then
I'll
give
you
my
carbon
credit.
It's
a
three-way
swap
of
Byzantine
swap
and
I'm
wondering
you
know
how
do
I
find
a
bank
willing
to
do
that?
There's
got
to
be
an
app
out
there
for
that,
because
this
is
a
the
tool
of
democracy
that
you
find
that
you
find
that
the
government
you
find
the
bank
you
find
whatever
it
is
that
you
need,
because
it's
going
to
listen
to
you
and
and
do
the
swap
that
you
need.
C
C
It
would
be
any
bank
that
is
interested
in
in
my
carbon
credit
to
decrease
that
they
would
be
able
to
decrease
their
carbon
footprint
and
in
exchange
they
would
swap
the
housing
there.
You
know
the
mortgage
they've
got
people
who
are,
you
know
bailing
on
their
mortgages
and
defaulting,
and
they
want
to
get
rid
of
that
bad
paper.
B
C
To
you
so
this
year,
if
you
click
on
the
first
link,
there's
they
then
scroll
way
down.
They've
got
a
link
to
a
list
of
Green
Banks
and
it
might
be
on
there
and
there's
also
a
link
to
another
link
to
more
green
banks.
That
so
the
thing
is,
is
that
there's
there's
got
to
be
an
app
that
tells
me
which
of
these
is
open
to
the
this
Byzantine
swap.
E
C
E
Yeah
I
don't
know
people
on
the
phone
have
ever
even
when
that
subject
is
broached
but
carbon
equipments.
Nobody
wants
to
talk
about
the
size
of
their
home.
That
seems
to
be
a
a
red
flag.
Nobody
will
discuss
it.
They'll
they'll
buy
in
this
a
EV,
that's
powered
by
Renewables
and
they'll,
put
up
a
10
000
square
foot
home
as
if
they
have
no
carbon
footprint
you're,
not
just
curious.
Does
anybody
also
seen
that
dichotomy
where
people
will
not
discuss
carbon
Footprints
with
these
massive
homes.
E
Mean
even
some
of
the
Advocates
that
are,
you
know,
media
types,
no
name
any
names,
but
then
we
know
about
who
are
advocates
for
carbon
reduction
have
massive
homes
or
they
have
two
or
three
homes,
and
it
just
seems
a
one
of
those
areas
that
may
never
get
addressed
properly.
Is
the
massive
cabin
footprint
on
these
these
Mansions,
but
for
people
who
are
out
there
advocating
we
get,
we
have
to
lower
our
carbon
Footprints.
Have
these
massive
homes
with
two
or
two
or
three
of
them
I
always
find
that
interesting.
E
A
That's
open
source
well
great,
well,
elect
I
want
to
be
cognizant
of
your
time.
You've
you've
been
so
generous
with
it,
and
this
has
been
very
engaging
and
definitely
a
kind
of
diversion
from
what
we
normally
see
where
it's
just
a
presentation,
I've
really
enjoyed
how
you've
kind
of
engaged
with
us
and
and
shown
or
shared
a
really
interesting
history,
and
just
all
around
really
interesting
perspective
on
on
something
that's
very
near
and
dear
to
us.
A
B
Yeah,
thank
you
so
much
I
I
hope
that
was
you
know,
kind
of
maybe
useful
for
you.
I
tried
to
make
it
really
more
engaging
and
entertaining,
and
just
tell
you
everything,
I
learned
about
open
source
and
how
to
build
it
for
climate
and
environmental
use
cases.
So
I
hope
this
was
useful
and
if
you
want
to
Deep
dive
in
in
some
more
details,
you
can
always
contact
me
and
we
can
have
like
a
in-depth
session
on
everything
that
was
mentioned.