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Description
PCMag's video interview explores on smart contracts, blockchain's disruptive impact, and Hyperledger's open-source standardization efforts at Mobile World Congress.
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A
Hi
I'm
Rob
Marvin
associate
features
editor
PC
Mag
here
at
Mobile,
World
Congress
in
Barcelona
and
I'm
here
with
brian
behlendorf,
the
executive
director
of
hyper
ledger.
We're
gonna
tell
you
all
about
what
a
hyper
ledger
is
and
what
it
does,
but
first
I
wanted
to
start
on
a
bit
of
a
higher
level.
You
know
before
we
dig
deep
just
to
talk
about
I
guess
you
know
for
the
general
public
out
there.
What
do
you
find
so
exciting
about
blockchain.
B
B
It
kind
of
you
know
it
was
IBM,
it
was
JPMorgan
and
it
was
like
the
old
guard
kind
of
like
looking
trying
to
look
cool
again
right,
but
but
they
resonated
with
it
and
I,
spend
some
time
attending
some
of
the
developer
meetings
and
said
how
can
I
help
and
in
Jim's
Emlyn
the
executive
director
the
Linux
Foundation
said?
Well,
we
could
use
somebody
who
could
help
run
this
so
I
said
sure
why
not
right.
A
B
This
is
the
first
time
I've
had
a
full
time
job
doing
what
I
do
doing
something
in
open
source.
Most
of
the
time
it's
been
as
a
volunteer,
alright
or
trying
to
figure
out
how
to
map
that
into
Enterprise
scenarios
such
as
the
company
collabnet
that
I
helped
run
for
eight
years
right,
but
I
have
a
river
rather
torturous
kind
of
career
path.
B
You
know:
I
worked
in
DC
for
a
few
years,
I
worked
in
the
White
House
and
then
I
worked
for
the
World
Economic
Forum,
as
chief
technology
officer
there,
and
then
I
was
doing
venture
capital
just
before
coming
to
this.
So
lots
of
different
things,
but
all
of
them
kind
of
lending
me
towards
this
kind
of
both
concern
about
centralization,
but
still
a
fundamental
belief
and
open
source
software,
open
systems
and
now
distributed
Ledger's
as
a
way
to
to
to
fix
some
thorny
problems
in
the
world.
So.
A
B
Mean
there's
there's
a
lot,
but
I'd
say
the
thing.
One
of
the
things
that
gets
me
most
excited
right
now
is
the
potential
to
reinvent
how
digital
identity
works
through
decentralized,
Ledger's
right
through
distributed,
Ledger's
there's
a
concept:
that's
been
floating
around
the
digital
ID
space
for
a
long
time
called
self
sovereign
ID,
sometimes
called
user
centric
a
digital
ID
right,
explain
how
that
works,
sure
and
it
at
a
high
level.
B
And
then,
within
that
the
you
know,
your
keys
that
you
use
to
manage
that
you
get
attestation.
So
you
get
claims.
You
know,
here's
a
facebook,
my
claim
this,
this
guy's
a
facebook
user.
So
you
can
use
this
to
log
in
elsewhere,
or
a
US
government
might
say
here's
your
passport
writing
your
passport
is
simply
a
claim
that
this
person
with
this
ID
is
a
US
citizen
and
can
travel
right
so
pulling
together
a
passport
that
has
all
these
claims
and
then
being
able
to
present.
These
claims
to
prove
it
is
the
the
reinvention
model.
B
I
can
use
that
to
attract
personal
information
as
well
and
who
I've
shared
that
personal
information
with
and
to
update
that
and
even
revoke
access
to
that
personal
information,
and
so
this
is
a
very
different
way
of
looking
at
this
and
hyper
ledger.
Has
a
project
called
hyper
ledger
indie,
which
is
an
implementation
of
self
sovereign
ID?
It's
something
we're
working
on
with
a
number
of
different
orgs
to
implement,
but
it's
already
being
put
into
production
services
in
production
service.
A
B
This
ruling
that
is
coming
to
effect
in
May
in
the
European
Union,
but
will
really
affect
every
business,
is
kind
of
a
peasant's
with
pitchfork
storming
the
Bastille
moment
in
the
digital
ID
space,
because
it's
the
citizen,
saying
we
are
sick
of
having
companies
presume
that
they
can
just
do
whatever
they
want
with
our
data.
This
is
an
approach
that
it
gives
the
individual
agency
to
be
able
to
know
who
their
data
is
shared
with
and
decide
when
it
can
be
shared
and
to
revoke
that
access
at
some
point
in
the
future.
B
It
so
the
Linux
Foundation
has
served
as
a
home
for
collaborative
development
of
cots
are
actually
collaborative
development
between
software
engineers,
working
together
originally
on
the
Linux
operating
system
and
now
for
over
50
different
projects
like
hyper
ledger
projects
and
cloud
computing,
software-defined,
networking,
automotive,
the
the
core
infrastructure
initiative,
which
is
a
security
project.
All
these
things
are,
you
know,
collections
of
developers
working
for
many
different
reasons,
but
together
on
common
code,
that
they
expect
to
be
used
in
production
systems,
and
that
doesn't
just
happen
on
its
own
right.
B
B
The
second
level
is
between
businesses,
helping
them
understand
how
to
build
a
business
model
on
top
of
open
source
software,
how
to
see
value
from
doing
that
and
how
to
work
with
each
other
without
killing
each
other
right,
so
that
model
that
template
turns
out
to
be
applicable
to
a
lot
of
different
technology
domains
and
so
at
hyper.
Let's
what
we're
trying
to
do
we're
trying
to
say
OK
in
the
field
of
distributed
Ledger's
and
smart
contract
systems,
there's
a
lot
to
figure
out.
B
A
lot
of
this
is
this
is
kind
of
a
new
new
new
terrain
compared
to
say
operating
systems
which
have
been
around
for
a
long
time
right
and
it's.
We
have
to
kind
of
map
that
landscape,
and
so
we've
got
nine
different
technology
projects.
The
identity
project
I
mentioned
is
one.
We
have
two
others
that
have
been
are
now
in
production,
news,
hyper
ledger
fabric
and
hyper
ledger,
Sawtooth
right
and
a
bunch
of
others
as
well,
so
I
and
and
all
the
goal
is
with
all
of
them.
A
I
want
to
go
straight
that
a
little
bit
on
you
mention
you
know:
200
plus
members,
across
healthcare,
finance
payments,
tech.
You
know
a
broader
number
of
use
cases.
You
know
what
are
some
of
the
more
interesting
ways
that
you've
seen
those
movers.
You
know
collaborate
and
you
know
work
together
in
maybe
ways
you
didn't
expect
ways.
B
I
didn't
expect
well,
I
mean
it's
it's
it
I've
been
immersed
in
it
now.
So
it's
hard
to
go.
What
was
unexpected,
but
I
mean
the
the
supply
chain
scenario
ends
up
repeating
itself
right.
So
the
first
a
couple
examples
that
I
could
use
were
diamonds
right
and
the
meat
supply
chain,
where
there's
kind
of
a
food
safety
thing
right.
B
The
diamond,
by
the
way,
no
supply
chain
of
the
focus
there
is
to
keep
blood
diamonds
out
of
circulation
right
so
have
a
really
hardened
kind
of
auditing
system
so
that,
when
you
have
diamonds,
come
from
an
old
and
good
source,
they're
in
the
integrity
of
the
handoffs
from
one
party
to
another
can
be
verified
by
anybody
in
that
chain.
That's
a
company
called
ever
ledger.
B
So
ever
ledger
is
building
a
diamond
supply
chain
project
with
s
AP
and
IBM,
and
and
a
bunch
of
the
other
organizations
in
the
diamond
industry
in
the
food
safety
project,
there's
something
with
involving
Walmart
and
Nestle
and
a
whole
bunch
of
other
supply
chain
companies
with
IBM
and
some
other
companies
helping
provide
support
for
that.
But
there
are
what's
interesting:
is
a
lot
of
these
also
become
the
basis
for
trade
finance?
They
become
the
basis
of
know
your
customer
kinds
of
applications.
B
They
become
like
these
generative
platforms,
because
once
you
have
that
data
in
a
computable
form,
it
can
be
used
for
lots
of
different
things
right.
So
so
I
guess,
what's
surprising,
is
how
these
things
start.
Is
these
very
subtle
use
cases
right
like
okay?
Let's
stop
the
flow
of
a
conflict
of
blood
diamonds
right,
but
they
become
a
platform
for
so
many
more
yeah.
B
Of
data
for
sure,
yeah
and
and
reliable
data,
alright
we're
not
a
big
data
tool.
That's
I
like
to
tell
people
we're
a
small
data
tool,
we're
about
like
the
most
important
data
who
owns
what
all
right
or
or
what
commitments
have
been
made.
I've
promised
to
send
you
$10,000.
If
it
rains,
you
know
and
floods.
You
know
in
a
certain
place
right:
that's
like
an
insurer,
a
weather,
insurance
contract
right
now,
that's
something
that
can
be
executed
automatically
across
the
ledger,
rather
than
a
promise.
B
We
might
have
still
had
rampant
speculation
in
that
market,
but
we
would
have
had
a
much
more
unwinding
of
those
investment
instruments
and
hopefully
the
same
kind
of
like
predictability
and
auditability
and
and
verifiability
that
we
could
have
brought
there.
We
could
bring
to
other
types
of
markets
and
and
hopefully
help
manage
the
complexity.
That's
a
society!
That's
going
down
a
rather
dark
path,
it
seems,
and.
A
On
the
subject,
I
wanted
to
explain
smart
contracts
a
little
bit
sure
which
I
mean
they're
kind
of
you
won
a
paper
ledger
projects.
Boro
is
kind
of
a
just
a
blueprint
for
creating
these
smart
contracts,
but
I
guess
in
fields
like
health
care
and
IRT.
Can
you
explain
why
that
kind
of
trusted
data
exchange
that
smart
contracts,
enablers
are
so
important
sure.
B
So
so,
smart
contracts
are
gonna,
be
used
for
a
lot
of
different
purposes
right,
but
in
essence
it
means
here's
a
function
that
anybody
in
the
network
can
invoke
that
the
network
guarantees
certain
property
is
about,
for
example,
so,
and
by
the
way
borough
is
an
implementation
of
the
etherium
virtual
machine.
I
can
run
on
top
of
its
own
ledger,
but
there
also
is
support
for
running
on
Sawtooth
and
coming
up
soon
for
running
on
top
of
fabric.
So
we
think
that's
one
of
the
more
interesting
technologies
to
come
out
of
the
etherium
community.
B
Is
this
virtual
machine
right,
but
a
smart
contract
again
can
be
used
to
encode
a
promise
that
I
make
about
some
condition
in
the
future.
It
can
be
used
to
create
derivatives.
It
could
be
used
also,
though,
let's
say
in
a
healthcare
setting.
I
could
write
a
smart
contract
that
grants
you
access
to
my
healthcare
information.
B
If
you
meet
certain
criteria
right,
like
the
person
making,
the
request
is
actually
certified
as
a
doctor
or
as
one
of
my
doctors
who
is
licensed
to
manage
information
about
me,
and
it
could
also
enforce
a
rule
that
says
anybody
who
accesses
this
data
that
access
also
gets
logged
on
to
the
network
and
all
of
this
in
encrypted
form,
so
that
you
know
third
parties.
They
can't
see
what
that
data
is.
But
what
I
want
to
know.
B
A
B
It's
it's.
What
makes
this
a
more
exciting
place
if
we
were
just
tracking
assets?
There'd
be
a
lot
of
value
to
that.
There's,
a
lot
of
problems
that
are
just
about
that
are
ledger,
style
problems
and
I.
Think
the
first
wave
of
production
systems
will
predominantly
focus
on
tracking
of
assets.
On
oh.
B
Looking
very
much
like
the
original
web
right,
where
the
first
wave
of
websites
were
brochure.
Where
do
you
remember
that
term
right?
You
know
there
were
static,
copies
of
any
other
paper
brochures
that
people
put
out
with
a
little
bit
of
CGI.
You
know
sprinkle
to
here,
and
there
I
remember
that
and
now,
obviously
you
know
if
your
website
is
just
static.
It's
it's
not
gonna,
get
much
use
so
yeah
I!
Think
we'll
see
the
same
thing
happen
here
and.
A
Hyper
ledger
has
a
bunch
of
projects
in
the
hopper,
but
I
thought
it
was
worth
taking
a
little
bit
of
time
to
talk
about
the
two
most
mature
ones.
You
know
that
fabric
fabric
and
soft
UITs
are
both
in
production
now
so
I.
Could
you
take
a
little
bit
of
time
just
to
explain
what
each
one
is
and
what
the
goal
is
sure.
So.
B
I
first
thought
I
should
mention
you
know.
We
took
the
perspective
and
hyper
Ledyard
that
there
isn't
one
true
architecture
that
everybody
needs
to
fall
in
line
with.
There's
some
really
mature
thinking
going
on
in
the
fabric
community.
That's
based
on
years
of
disputed
systems,
work
that
had
happened
inside
of
companies
like
IBM
before
hyper
ledger
even
began,
and
it
kind
of
came
from
a
history
that
those
companies
that
had
with
transaction
systems
with
with
large-scale
you
know
mainframes
even
right.
B
You
know
understanding
what
you
really
need
to
coordinate
processes
between
multiple
parties
right
but
kind
of
coming
from
a
very
rich
database,
II
kind
of
world
where
finality
was
really
important,
where
control
over
the
end
result
was
really
important.
Control
over
the
ledger
was
important
and
so
I,
it's
that's
kind
of
its
lineage
right,
but
we
said
you
know
even
before
I
joined
the
Intel,
it
contributed
their
sawtooth
Lake
project
which
we
renamed
to
sawtooth
and,
and
it
took
a
very
different
approach.
B
It
kind
of
started
from
the
other
spectra
end,
which
is
let's
look
at
the
Bitcoin
architecture.
Let's
look
at
more
the
cryptocurrency
architectures
and
ask
what's
valuable
about
them
in
terms
of
the
the
fact
that
you
can
have
lots
of
lots
of
nodes
on
a
network,
the
fact
that
Ledger's
sometimes
fork
and
diverge
and
then
come
back
together
or
the
longest
Brandt
branch
is
the
one
that
survives
right.
B
And
so
it's
been
a
kind
of
a
playground
for
experimenting
with
a
couple
of
different
consensus
mechanisms.
One's
called
proof
of
elapsed
time
and
that's
a
something
that
depends
upon
the
secure
Enclave
inside
of
Intel's
chips,
potentially
other
makers
chips
as
they
roll
that
out
too,
and-
and
it's
also
been
a
way
to
try
to
say,
okay.
What
what
many
the
the
cryptocurrency
Ledger's
get
right
is
that
they
track
not
only
data
in
the
ledger
but
also
state
and
in
the
end,
the
smart
contracts
as
first-class
objects
within
the
ledger.
B
Everything
gets
versioned
all
the
way
through,
so
that
your
world
state
that
you
compute
from
the
ledger
can
look
exactly.
It
should
look
exactly
the
same
as
everybody
else's
right
and
fabric
takes
a
slightly
different
approach
and
constructing
a
consistent
world
state
is
actually
really
hard
and
there's
some
use
cases
that
require
it
a
whole
lot
that
don't
so
in
many
ways
you
know
the
metaphor:
I've
used
for
people
is.
This
is
kind
of
like
the
difference
between
my
sequel
and
Cassandra
right
at
the
hundred
thousand
foot
view.
B
B
What's
going
to
happen
when
developers
start
playing
with
this
and
deploying
it
and
seeing
where
one
meets
their
needs
better
than
the
other,
but
I'm
confident
they'll
come
up
with
that
kind
of
story
and
at
some
point
like
with
all
the
other
projects,
we
have
a
hyper
ledger
if
there's
good
ideas,
but
they
just
don't
get
traction
then
bringing
those
into
other
projects
that
you
get
traction
is
something
our
model
allows
everything's
under
the
same
license.
All
the
development
is
public.
B
The
developers
build,
you
know,
bridges
between
different
projects,
around
architecture
and
and
personnel,
and
that
sort
of
thing,
so
we
think
this
more
organic
approach
to
doing
product
management-
you
know
so
to
speak-
is
perhaps
better
than
if
somebody
was
anointed
as
the
architect
and
said.
Here's
the.
A
One
true
path
right
so
I,
guess
it
and
through
that
lens
of,
or
you
know,
organic
interoperability
and
the
flexibility
that
you're
building
it
all
these
processes.
You
know,
what
do
you
see
is
the
future
of
blockchain
I,
guess
in
stages,
first,
in
there
in
this
next
couple
years
and
then
kind
of
the
longer
big-picture
view
well,.
B
I
think
we're
at
an
inflection
point
this
year,
where
there
are
proofs
of
concepts
that
have
been
done.
There's
pilots
that
are
in
process
or
wrapping
up
and
we'll
probably
in
the
year
with
several
dozen,
which
sounds
low,
but
several
dozen
large
production
deployments
of
this
four
different
networks.
Many
of
those
will
likely
be
public
permissioned
networks.
You
could
think
of
the
domain
name
system
as
a
public
permission
network.
B
You
know
where
everybody
can
read
it,
but
if
you
have
to
have
certain
rights
to
be
able
to
write
to
the
domain
name
system
right
than
that
and
that's
and
that's
appropriate,
we
we
understand
how
those
models
work.
So
there's
a
number
that
are
being
prepared
for
launch
this
year
on
top
of
hyper
Ledger's
code
and
I
think
will
will
get
a
better
understanding
of
how
to
work
with
these
technologies
and
and
see.
You
know
an
inflection
point
in
terms
of
numbers
of
developers
working
with
them
as
well
right.
A
B
That's
a
little
harder
to
answer.
I
mean
blockchain.
Technologies
are
necessarily
kind
of
a
business
to
business
integration.
Thing
I
mean
we,
we
do
see
cryptocurrency
wallets
and
that
sort
of
thing,
but
even
then,
for
most
people
you
know
they,
as
individuals
aren't
conducting
transactions
on
the
ledger,
typically
they're,
going
through
somebody
like
coin
base
or
etc.
Right,
so
the
consumer
impact
I
mean
to
them
it'll
it.
Here's
what
I
hope
I
hope
that,
with
the
deployment
of
this
people
will
see
data,
that's
more
portable
they'll,
see
their
identity.
B
Information
be
something
they
can
manage,
rather
than
needing
to
depend
upon
third
parties
or
silos
of
data
right
as
this
whole
distributed
data
kind
of
concept
right
a
distributed,
ID
concept,
I
think
they'll,
you
know,
hopefully
their
expectations
about
how
how
information
systems
work
will
be
different.
It's
hard
to
make
for
me
to
predict,
though
this
is
really
much
more
of
a
business-to-business
story.
I
think
I,
guess.
Finally,
I
hope.
B
It
means
that
people
will
expect
that,
even
though
their
users
of
service,
a
that
being
able
to
switch
to
service
B,
becomes
not
just
something
that's
possible
to
do.
In
many
cases,
it's
not
even
possible.
You
can't
take
your
goober
ride
history
with
you
over
to
lift
right
or
your
your
good
rating
as
an
uber
driver,
uber
driver
or
uber
passenger
over
to
lift.
A
B
Because
I
think
it's
actually
a
return
to
how
people
expect
the
real
world
to
work.
They
don't
expect.
You
know,
inside
of
a
space
of
two
years,
one
company
to
control
all
the
cabs
in
the
world
right.
They
expect
that
you
know
you
know
to
be
able
to
hail
a
cab
and
have
that
be
a
relationship
between
themselves
and
the
cabbie,
and
maybe
the
you
know,
the
the
you
know
some
some
you
know,
services
that
help
be.
A
So
before
we
get
to
kind
of
I,
guess
the
you
know
closing
what's
what's
coming
in
the
in
the
next
few
months,
it's
I
think
you
certainly
hit
on
the
fact
that
this
is
a
b2b
play.
It's
really
the
businesses
that
are
driving
this
and
I.
You
know
we're
trying
not
to
get
it
conflated
too
much
with
banking
and
finance,
but
those
are
a
lot
of
the
companies
that
are
driving
the
innovation
right
now.
Can
you
I
guess
what
what
do
you
think
blockchain
is?
A
B
B
This
just
like
the
Internet
is
something
that
every
company
will
have
to
be
aware
of
and
think
about
how
it
affects
their
business
model
and
the
more
that
their
business
model
looks
like
a
gatekeeper
to
transactions
right,
the
more
it's
likely
to
be
disrupted
and
and
will
force
the
reinvention
just
like
the
encyclopedia
companies
had
to
reinvent
themselves
in
light
of
the
Internet
right.
So
so
that's
that's
I!
Think
this
story,
that's
going
to
play
out
over
the
next
ten
years.
Sure
that.
A
B
So
we've
got
nine
projects,
two
of
which
have
gotten
to
a
one
dot
o
release
and
are
in
production
and
those
will
obviously
they
have
a
head
of
steam
around
them.
We'll
see
further
releases
around
those
I'm
eager
to
get
as
many
of
the
other
projects
to
that
one
dot
o
release,
as
we
can
and
looks
like
we'll
have
at
least
three
or
four
this
year.
That'll
do
that
and
those
are
that's
an
it
might
sound
minor.
It's
like
a
one
dot
o.
What
are
our
expectations
for
us?
B
One
dot
o
is
a
signal
that
the
developers
are
comfortable
with
you
using
the
software
in
production
systems
with
real
digital
assets,
a
pretty
high
bar
right.
So
but
that's
that's!
Our
goal
is
to
take
this
stuff
and
pull
it
down
a
pipeline
to
get
it
into
use,
we'll
probably
see
more
projects
at
it.
I
don't
really
have
a
crystal
ball,
it's
kind
of
not
up
to
me,
I
mean
we.
We
wait
around
for
projects
to
be
proposed
to
us.
B
The
people
who've
written
the
code
right
we're
not
like
a
Microsoft
or
Google.
You
know
where
we
say:
there's
the
direction.
We're
heading
in
and
let's
attack,
we
are
much
more
organic,
so
we've
had
some
people
show
up
and
say
we'd
like
to
do
a
project
in
in
smart
contracts.
Do
a
project
in
payment
networks
do
a
project
in
different
things.
If
any,
it's
actually
a
public
process
run
by
the
technical
steering
committee
to
decide
which
of
those
projects
get
adopted
and
brought
into
the
organization.
A
B
I
think
I
think
certainly
certainly
in
the
payments
world.
We
think
there's
some
work
to
do.
I
mean
you
can
tokenize
anything
you
want
on
top
of
fabric
or
on
top
of
sawtooth,
but
I
think
there's
some
interesting
innovation
happening
that
we
could
learn
from
the
cryptocurrency
world,
but
doesn't
necessarily
involve
proof
of
work,
so
interesting,
stuff
happening
there.
I
think
I
think
getting
into
more
sector
specific
things
like
what
would
it
mean
to
do
a
healthcare
records
ledger
right,
it's
something
that
allows
patients
to
be
at
the
center
of
health
information
exchange
right.
B
B
Does
it
does
and
in
fact,
I
think,
a
really
big
thing
that
we
could
do
is
I
even
wonder
if
we
could
take
that
on
or
if
it
has
to
be
something.
Somebody
like
Mozilla
is
a
standardized
wallet
right
to
this
world.
The
wallet
is
what
the
browser
was
to
the
web
right
and
it
needs.
We
need
a
wallet
that
acts
as
your
agent
acts
as
your
proxy,
not
just
something
given
to
you
by
a
website
to
use
right,
because
this
is
something
that
should
form
a
long-term
relationship
with
you.
Somebody
should
build
one.