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From YouTube: Panel Discussion: From Technology to Business Proposition: Creating the Case for Decentralized Id...
Description
Panel Discussion: From Technology to Business Proposition: Creating the Case for Decentralized Identity - Trevor Butterworth, Indicio; JP George, Trinsic; Kaliya Young, Identity Woman
Speakers: JP George, Trevor Butterworth
A global pandemic, working from home, and numerous technical breakthroughs mean that decentralized digital identities are no longer discussion points; they’re pilots, they’re products, they’re solutions to the chronic problems of verification, privacy, and security online. In this discussion we’ll examine how “decentralized,” “reusable,” or “self-sovereign” identity is meeting the needs of consumers, companies, organizations, and the public sector around the world, how it is creating opportunities for new kinds of digital interactions and relationships, what what you can do to adopt and benefit from this new technology now. *description provided by Trevor Butterworth
about: Kaliya, widely known as the Identity Woman, is a top expert in decentralized / self-sovereign identity. She has committed her life to the development of an open standards based identity layer of the internet that empowers people. Kaliya co-founded the Internet Identity Workshop (IIW), which in the past 17 years has nurtured standards being used all over the internet, like OpenID Connect and OAuth. In January 2020 she was featured in Wired UK.
Sessions Details & Slides (if available): https://sched.co/19SDt
Access All Sessions: https://events.linuxfoundation.org/hyperledger-global-forum/program/schedule/
----
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License
Creative Commons Attribution license (reuse allowed)
A
A
lot
of
you
not
all
of
you
and
we.
We
were
prepping
for
this
session
and
we
decided
we'd
do
like
rapid
fire,
101,
verifiable
credentials
and
dids
so
that
we
are
kind
of
level
set
here,
because
we've
found
there's
lots
of
misunderstandings
that
people
are
hashing
pii
and
sticking
it
on
ledgers,
and
that
may
happen
in
some
projects
somewhere.
But
they
don't
happen
in
the
projects
we're
talking
about
so.
A
We
have
in
our
ecosystem
model,
we
have
issuers
who
issue
verifiable
credentials.
They
do
two
things:
they
post
a
decentralized
identifier
along
with
some
metadata
about
themselves,
including
the
public
Keys
associated
with
that
did
that's
a
dead
dock
into
some
place.
That's
lookupable
that
might
be
a
blockchain.
It
doesn't
have
to
be
some
folks
use.
A
method
called
did
web
that
jams,
this
information
into
their
existing
DNS
records,
but
generally
for
public
dids.
You
need
to
look
them
up
somehow.
A
A
A
They
share
a
verifiable
presentation
and
they're
able
to
go
and
figure
out
using
the
cryptographic
key
material
here.
Whether
the
verifiable
presentation
is
what
in
fact
came
from
that
issuer
and
whether
it
has
been
tampered
with
or
not.
So
it's
kind
of
the
core
verifiable
credentials
and
decentralized
identifier
architecture
that
we're
we're
touching
on
today
and
considering
what
the
business
cases
are
and
and
how
we
can
move
forward.
So
my
name
is
Kalia
young.
My
handle
online
is
identity.
B
Hi
everybody
I'm
JP,
so
I,
head
up,
engineering,
attrinsic
and
forensic
is
a
platform
to
basically
get
going
as
quick
as
possible
to
really
build
products
with
this
SSI
space.
So
our
main
goal
is
to
drive
adoption,
it's
kind
of
whatever
it
takes
to
to
get
real
world
usage.
Adoption
going,
that's
what
I'm
here
for
and
I
think
that's
what
a
lot
of
us
are
here
for
so
that's
it.
C
Thanks
welcome
all
my
name
is
Trevor
Butterworth,
despite
what
the
name
sounds
like
I'm.
Actually,
Irish
grew
up
in
Dublin
spent,
most
of
my
last
last
26
years
in
the
US
in
dco,
a
co-founder
of
indicio
and
vice
president
of
governance.
There
so
in
dco,
is
based
in
Seattle,
and
we
are
a
global
provider
of
software
and
infrastructure
solutions
for
verifiable,
credentialed
technology,
all
open
source.
C
Well,
as
as
I
have
the
mic,
I
will
start
so
just
a
little
bit
of
background,
we
launched
in
dco
roughly
around
the
start
of
the
pandemic,
and
what
we've
seen
in
the
last
two
years
has
been
a
massive
acceleration
and
interest
in
verifiable
credentials
and
I
would
say
that,
broadly,
our
major
customers
are
in
the
financial
services
and
specifically
kyc
in
health,
in
travel
supply
chains
and
iot
devices
and
I.
Think
that
is
something
that
people
forget
when
they
they
hear
the
word
decentralized
identity,
they
think
of
the
identity.
C
B
Yeah
thanks
I
kind
of
we
see
the
same
General
interest
rate
I.
Think
on
top
of
that,
or
maybe
a
different
angle,
is
we
see
a
lot
of
identity
technology
companies
come
to
us,
so
companies
that
actually
themselves,
obviously
with
Transit,
focuses
as
well
want
to
build
an
identity
product.
So
we've
got
quite
some
interest
from
companies
that
themselves
want
to
look
at.
We
are
an
identity
ecosystem
and-
and
we
want
to
build
that
out.
B
A
C
What
we've
seen
is
that
our
companies
start
a
journey
through
they
begin
a
journey
typically
with
a
training,
so
we
have
training
workshops
and
that
that
the
Hands-On
workshops
so
the
for
all
skill
levels.
So
both
the
business
side,
which
is
critical
and
the
engineering
side,
can
issue
credentials
and
once
they
see
how
easy
it
is,
then
that
usually
leads
to
a
simple
use
case
and
then,
typically,
once
they
see
how
a
simple
use
case
can
be
implemented,
then
there
is
rapid
expansion,
they
get
it
and
I.
C
You
know
I
think
that's
I,
think
that
is
something
we're
going
to
like
in
the
next
six
to
12
months.
We're
going
to
see
the
end
well,
that
Journey
been
being
taken
by
bigger
and
bigger
Enterprises
and
more
and
more
use
cases
are
going
to
be
turned
from
proof
of
Concepts
and
Pilots
into
actual
actual
implementations.
B
Yeah,
so
the
the
customers
that
we're
generally
seeing
under
questions
they
have,
they
tend
to
already
know
the
space
a
little
bit
so
once
they
start
to
use
forensic
when
we
start
to
talk
to
them.
They've
generally
already
built
like
a
very
small
internal
proof
of
concept,
which
is
really
interesting
to
see.
So
we've
got
a
lot
of
some
kind
of
natural
product
driven
adoption
that
go
in
where
people
come
to
us
and
say:
hey
I've
got
this.
How
can
I
bring
this
further
into
the
organization,
then?
B
C
So
one
of
the
things
in
this
journey
that
when
they
see
how
they
can
use
verifiable
credentials,
it's
not
just
simply
about
verifying
identities.
It's
about
an
ontology
for
verify,
verifying
data,
so
they
see
the
the
they
see
verifiable
credentials,
enabling
immediate
immediate
actionable
data
and
that
presents
well.
So
that
presents
a
very
interesting
proposition
for
say
in
the
travel
sector,
and
so
we've
worked
with
Sita,
which
is
the
largest
provider
of
infrastructure
to
the
Air
transport
sector
and
their
Vision,
when
they
originally
began,
were
interested
in
this
technology.
C
C
So
we
worked
with
Seton
the
government
of
Aruba
to
implement
verifiable
credential
solution
for
people
so
that
they
could
open
up
the
island,
so
people
could
travel
there
and
ultimately
that
they
could
board
the
plane
and
be
checked
all
the
the
way
through
through
a
digital
credit,
a
verifiable
credential
and
and
then
so
when
when
they
saw
how
that
was
possible.
Of
course,
you
know
nobody
really
wants
to
even
think
about
covert
anymore.
C
They
began
went
back
to
their
original
Vision.
So
then
they've
now
expanded
that
to
how
can
we
create
a
digital
travel
credential
that
could
effectively
replicate
a
passport
for
seamless
travel
experience.
So
what
I'm
saying
there
is
that
the
the
solve
the
small
learn
the
technology
by
solve
solving
a
small
use
case,
and
then
that
just
brings
the
realization
of
how
you
know
how
it
can
be
employed
in
so
many
different
ways.
B
Yeah
I'd
really
like
the
second
that
I
think.
That's
the
that's.
What
we're
seeing
a
lot
as
well,
like
the
simplest
proof
of
concept,
can
really
like
sort
of
shift.
The
whole
industry
around
we've
seen
some
interesting
things
around
data
portability
in
and
off
itself,
so,
rather
than
especially
with
big
companies
right,
for
example,
a
lot
of
employee
movement
having
to
synchronize
the
data
everywhere
is
even
the
concept
of
I
can
just
carry
that
around
improve.
B
B
D
B
B
C
All
right,
well
so
yeah
as
I
said,
the
the
high
level
concept
is
immediately
actionable
data
and
that
covers
a
lot
of
ground
that
covers
fraud.
I
mean
obviously
the
the
fraud
is
the
huge
use
case
that
will
drive
verifiable
credentials
into
Mass
adoption.
That's
what
I
believe
and
along
with
fraud,
you
have
zero
trust.
So,
if
you're
familiar
with
zero
trust
architecture,
you
you
know
that
it.
You
need
continuous
verification
to
really
make
it
work
and
verifiable
credentials
are
a
perfect
solution
for
dealing
with
continuous
verification.
C
So,
and
let
me
let
me
kind
of
stop
for
a
moment
in
part.
The
problem.
The
problem
is
an
abundance
of
riches,
verifiable
credentials,
work
on
you
know
three
dimensions,
verification,
privacy
and
security,
and
sometimes
one
of
the
challenges
is
actually
explaining
how
the
how
your
business
can
be
transformed
in
all
three
dimensions.
C
Without
burying
you
know
a
prospective
customer
under
a
massive
amount
of
detail,
so
so
in
in
part.
One
of
the
challenges
we
have
is
communicating,
but
the
notion
what
we
have
found
in
dealing
with
our
customers,
the
the
things
that
resonate
the
comments
that
resonate
and
immediately
actionable
data
is
a
comment
that
that
really
resonated.
Similarly,
we
we
moved
away
from
I
mean
why
we
still
talk
a
lot
because
about
decentralized
identity.
B
B
Everybody
wants
that,
but
the
real
challenge
I
think
that
we're
seeing
is
people
saying
this
is
what
we're
going
to
take
into
a
production
use
case
with
millions
of
verifications
and
millions
of
wallets
that
kind
of
like
okay,
the
rubber
is
actually
hitting
the
road
I.
Think
that's
the
challenge
that
we're
seeing
is
the
biggest
at
least
for
transit
to
sort
of
tackle
and
to
help
tackle.
A
The
industry
I'll
just
contribute
to
the
conversation
and
say
like
last
week
there
was
a
Public
Presentation
by
USCIS
customs
and
immigration,
saying
that
they
were
going
to
use
verifiable
credential
format
to
issue
digital
green
cards,
so
we're
seeing
some
significant
entities
with
millions
of
people,
I
I
among
them,
I'm
a
green
card
holder
and
it's
exciting
so
is
just
the
beginning.
I
think
you're
right.
C
And
I
think
when
you
start
to
look
at
look
at
sort
of
emerging
Fields
like
the
spatial
web,
where
you,
the
proliferation
of
sensors
and
cameras,
will
enable
digital
objects
to
interact
with
non-digital
objects.
How
you
you
know
everything
is
going
to
need
an
identity.
Everything
is
going
to
need
to
prove
that
it
should
be
where
it
is
at
a
in
a
given
given
point
in
space.
So
again,
this
is.
This
is
not
going.
A
E
A
Us
please
think
about
that.
You
touched
on
decentralized
ecosystem
governance,
so
I
drew
this
little
diagram
of
like
the
core
transaction
model,
but
to
actually
get
an
ecosystem
going.
We
need
more
than
just
this
because
who
the
heck
is
the
issuer
anyways,
and
how
do
we
figure
that
out?
So
could
you
talk
a
little
bit
about
that
infrastructure
that
we
need
for
these
ecosystems
to
work?
Sure.
C
And
again,
this
is
this
is
what
we
found
was
worked
for,
was
needed
and
worked
for
our
customers,
so
in
we
developed
what
we
initially
called
machine,
readable
governance
to
manage
the
information
flows
and
the
issue
of
trust
in
our
Pilots
for
the
pilot
project
with
Aruba
and
Sita.
So
you
know
it's
it's
a
it's
a
it's
a
serialized
file,
that's
published
by
the
governance
Authority
and
and
which
is
propagated
at
the
software
agent
level.
So
it's
very
quickly
updated.
C
It
has
offline
functionality
and
and
most
important
it
was
the
only
form
of
governance
that
the
government
of
Aruba
would
accept
because
they
wanted
to
be
in
control
of
you
know
of
who
who
got
into
their
country
and
what
you
know.
If
this
and
and
it's
able
to
you
know
it's
able
to
combine,
you
know
sort
of
hierarchical
jurisdictions,
it's
able
to
manage
kind
of
Boolean
logic
questions.
C
Well,
if
you
see
this,
then
you
do
that
and
then
you
do
the
other,
etc,
etc,
and
recently
we're
not
the
only
ones
that
came
up
with
this
idea.
So
I
know
I.
Think
Daniel
Buckner
at
block
has
also
been
working
on
a
similar
thing.
So,
quite
recently,
decentralized
ecosystem
governance
has
become
a
project
of
the
the
deaf,
the
centralized
identity
foundation,
so
they're
working
on
a
standardization
for
for
for
this
protocol,
but
again
the
the
reason.
B
Yeah,
so
technically
we've
went
for
a
slightly
different
route
there,
but
conceptually
you
know
we
have
the
same
problem
where
there
need
to
be
sort
of
issues
and
verifiers
that
need
to
be
somehow
trusted.
So
we
have
a.
We
have
a
trust
registry
system.
We
actually
worked
with
the
SF
project
to
build
an
open
source
trust
registry
following
the
specification.
So
you
know
that's
where.
B
Here
so
I
need
to
check
on
the
exact
specification
that
we
follow
there,
but
you
know
I
think
that
work
is
that
the
work
is
important,
like
yeah,
like
Trevor
mentioned
as
well.
We're
really
seeing
that
the
the
basic
model
that
is
sort
of
envisioned
there
there's
definitely
something
around
it
where
trust
needs
to
be
embedded
and
readable
and
usable
by
not
just
humans,
but
also
the
machines.
A
I
will
add,
on
top
of
you
know.
Registries
are
a
key
key
thing
that
is,
as
you
said,
on
The
Cutting,
Edge
of
innovation,
but
there's
also
another
problem,
which
is
how
do
you
find
the
Registries?
So
my
colleague,
Lucy
and
John
Walker
have
been
working
on
the
global
covid
certificate,
Network
gccn,
to
build
a
directory
of
trust
registries
so
that
you
could
go
and
find
the
Registries
from
other
places
and
decide
whether
you
want
to
use
that
registry,
because
someone
is
listed
in
one
of
them.
C
A
F
B
Yeah,
so
that's
definitely
true
right,
you'll
be
carrying
a
lot
of
private
Keys
around
I,
think
for
actual
end
user
products.
That
should
just
be
something:
that's
completely
invisible.
Just
like
you
know
any
other
application
you're
using
you're.
Never
thinking
about
what
keys
it
might
use.
So
anybody
you
know
anybody,
Building
Products
will
have
to
think
about
it.
Obviously,
on
sort
of
the
infrastructure
point,
but
end
users
should
never
see
it
and
then
there's
plenty
of
I
think
very,
quite
interesting
technology
around
Keys.
B
You
know
Distributing
Keys
over
multiple
devices,
so
you
have
to
require
that
multiple
device
to
even
just
be
able
to
get
into
these
wallets
to
to
do
the
job.
There's
plenty
of
quite
exciting,
I.
Think
research
going
on
at
this
moment
and
actually
being
actualized
to
still
be
able
to
act
on
these
wallets
without
necessarily
needing
those
keys.
So
it's
an
exciting
space,
but
really
for
for
end
sort
of
product
Builders.
They
shouldn't
have
to
think
about.
You
know
these
keys.
That
should
be
something
that.
A
A
The
holder
themselves
also
generates
key
material
to
receive
the
credential,
and
the
holder
has
key
material
in
a
digital
wallet,
but
this
issuer
does
not
have
to
do
this
each
time
they
issue
a
credential.
They
just
have
to
do
it
once
and
they
can
use
the
same
private
key
to
sign
millions
of
credentials.
A
G
Thanks
I
have
a
question
about
maturity,
so
I
mean
this
pattern's
been
around
for
a
long
time
and
it's
you
know
it's
very
elegant,
and
you
know
we
all
like
talking
about
it
and
eventually
you'll
want
to
use
it
I'm
wondering
if
you
could
talk
about
the
scale
of
the
diplomats
you've
seen
and
what
what
key
aspect
of
the
architecture
needs.
The
most
work
from
a
you
know,
ready
for
Mass
adoption
perspective.
C
So
a
lot
of
the
deployments
that
the
Bloons
we
can
talk
about
because
it's
part
of
competitive
advantage
of
the
companies
that
are
doing
this,
the
I
think
you
know
you
will
see
some
very
interesting
deployments
in
the
next
six
months
and
I.
Think
one
of
the
major
obstacles
is
ux.
So
in
order
to
look
I
I
I
I
once
gave
a
present.
C
So
my
background
is
working
on
data
literacy
and
I
once
gave
a
presentation
to
the
Bureau
of
Labor
Statistics
at
the
or
rather
the
the
the
the
Congressional.
The
federal
statistical
agencies
in
Washington,
DC
and
I
hired
a
ux
expert
to
go
use
the
Bureau
of
Labor
evaluate
the
Bureau
of
Labor
Statistics
website,
and
it
was
a
you
know,
complete
disaster
and
I.
Think
sad,
unfortunately,
because
so
much
so
much
effort
go
you
know.
So
much
of
the
effort
of
money
goes
into
developing
the
tech.
C
We
can
forget
the
absolute
importance
of
modeling,
ux
and
UI,
and
so
the
the
you
know
the
sooner
you
know
the
better
that
gets
the
quicker
the
the
quicker
these
the
situation
will.
Will
the
maturity
will
happen.
I
would
also
say
you
know
we
just
released
a
product
which
enables
is
a
complete.
It's
called
proven.
It
enables
you
to
build
a
complete
ecosystem,
it's
got
all
the
components,
including
training
and
support
and
upgrades,
and
it
leaves
you
with
a
complete
open
source.
C
B
Yeah
I
think
maybe
a
slight
addition
to
that
is
pre-trinsic.
We
I
did
some
work
at
a
previous
company
really
trying
to
to
put
some
volume
through
it
I
think
at
really
high
volume.
There
is
definitely
work
to
be
done
at
a
lower
level,
but
I
think
the
community
is,
is
sort
of
aware
of
that
and
actively
working
to
get
kind
of
the
really
high
volume
traffic
going.
So
I
think
when
the
high
volume
comes
right,
then
that
we'll
be
ready
to
sort
of
tackle
those
as
needed.
B
I
would
say:
high
volume,
you
know
tens
of
millions
of
verifications
a
month,
this
kind
of
stuff
at
a
singular
pointer,
relatively
centralized
places
I
think
there's
a
lot
to
be
done
in
in
split
up
areas.
But
there's
going
to
be
these
these
bottlenecks
and
governments
are
a
typical
one.
Right,
they've
got
millions
and
millions
and
millions
of
things
that
need
issuing
and
checking
and
verifying
so
I
think
those
choke
points
will
will
really
once
once
we
get
to
that
adoption.
We'll
really
start
to
show
some
cracks.
I.
A
Think
one
of
the
things
that
to
touch
on
your
questions-
something
I,
actually
have
never
heard
our
community
talk
about.
But
I've
thought
about
in
terms
of
the
past
between
here
and
large-scale
adoption
is
there's
a
whole
universe
of
people
who
focus
on
form
filling
out
like
the
form
people,
I,
don't
think
we've
figured
out
where
the
foreign
people
live.
We
haven't
figured
out
how
to
talk
their
language.
We're
we
haven't
been
like.
D
A
We've
got
a
tool
for
you
if
you
have
a
form
and
they
have
a
verifiable
credential.
How
do
we
get
it
to
fill
into
the
form
forms
being
the
stuff
that
you
fill
out
on
government
websites
or
even
corporate,
but
governments
are
kind
of
the
queens
of
forms,
so
I
think
there
is
sort
of
understanding
how
how
VCS
fit
into
existing
ecosystems
and
going
in
connecting
to
those
other.
C
H
Then
I
got
there
at
the
attention
Okay
yeah.
But
how
do
you
guys
think
about
that
I
mean
to
generate
values
generate
Heaven
is
for
issuers
this
this
kind
of
marketing,
because
you
know
generative
values
for
issuers
for
holders.
We
are
talking
about
it.
Companies
like
to
talk
about
that
because
you
know
company
has
register
areas
with
Decades
of
years
and
they
never
had
generated
value
before
that's
a
chance
for
them
to
generate
values.
It's
that
right,
I
mean
in
terms
of
self-serverting
identity,
or
there
is
a
misconcept
here.
B
I
I
think
the
complexity
of
the
market,
because
it's
such
a
fundamental
thing
is
that
kind
of
all
value
propositions
will
work
right.
So
if
issuers
might
be
paying,
verifiers
might
be,
paying
holders
might
be
paying
or
like
the
value
proposition
will
sort
of
kind
of
come
to
a
point
at
different
places.
B
I
definitely
think
that
there's
places
where
value
can
be
kind
of
realized
that
people
didn't
realize
before
right.
There's
plenty
of
places
where
you
need
to
pay
for
sort
of
a
paper
for
accreditation,
I
am
moving
to
the
US,
so
I
went
through
a
government
fund
period
of
literally
having
to
file
all
papers
and
I've
had
to
pay
quite
some
institutions.
My
my
college
I
had
to
go
to
like
my
high
school
and
figure
out
how
to
get
like
the
certain
abstract.
B
C
C
So
the
21st
century
cures
act
mandated
that
patients
in
the
US
should
have
access
to
the
Health
Data
and
but
of
course,
the
the
you
know,
the
hies
were
and
his
only
sort
of
came
into
existence
fairly
recently
and
the
combination
of
covid
and
has
really
I
mean
we
saw
Health
as
being
the
the
area.
That
would
be
the
slowest
to
change
and
actually
I
think.
A
What
they're,
bringing
great
I'll
I'll
answer
this
one
first,
so
I
think
one
of
the
big
challenges
actually-
and
there
was
just
a
some
sort
of
document
release
with
the
contracts
Apple's
been
signing
with
TSA
has
been
the
potential
because
Apple
and
Google
control
the
handset
operating
systems
for
them
to
lock
out
every
other
wallet
and
and
to
lock
them
out
by
not
being
giving
them
access
to
the
phone.
The
internal
phone
apis
to
have
wallet,
parity,
so
I
think
this
issue
of
the
rights
of
other
wallet
makers
to
access
the
phone.
A
Hardware
is
going
to
be
a
big
one
in
the
next
year
and
if
it
doesn't
get
solved
in
the
next
year,
I
think
we're
in
big
trouble.
I
think
governments
need
to
step
up
and
regulate.
This
I
have
confidence.
The
EU
the
U
is
on
this
problem:
I'm
hopeful
that
we
can,
with
their
latest
rule,
making
announcement
coming
from
the
Federal
Trade
Commission
around
data
security
and
commercial
surveillance
that,
if
you're
in
the
U.S-
and
you
want
to
comment
on
that
rulemaking
about
this,
the
the
comments
are
due
October
21st.
A
But
it's
a
big
deal
that
they
control
the
handset
and
each
of
them
have
wallets
and
I.
Think
we
as
a
everyone
who
isn't
them
needs
to
be
like
no,
we
need
access
and
we
need
a
Level
Playing
for
wallets
you're,
not
going
to
do
you're
not
going
to
do
the
the
back
in
the
day.
Some
of
you
well.
This
audience
is
old
enough
to
remember,
but
Microsoft
shipped
the
browser
with
the
OS
and
kind
of
drove
things.
C
You
know
the
the
there's
been
a
lot
of
sort
of
messing
around.
There's
been
a
lot
of
talk.
A
lot
of
excited
talk,
web3
web
five
metaverse,
but
we
are
potentially
entering
different
paradigms.
Where
you
know
the
the
the
Walled
Garden
The
Silo
is,
is
is
going
to
be
challenged
and
and
I
think
it'll
be
a
question
of
the
the
the
you
know.
The
I
think
this
technology
represents
a
way
for
data
to
be
free
and
I.
B
So
there's
definitely
something
that
as
a
company,
we
will
aim
to
just
be
compatible
with
where
possible
and,
however
quick,
we
can
be
possible
there,
but
I
think
there's
the
the
penetration
level
of
these
smartphones
is
obviously
so
big.
There's,
just
you
know,
should
do
the
right
thing,
which
I
think
that's.
Maybe
the
question
and
I
might
be
biased
as
an
EU
citizen,
that
I
sort
of
trust,
the
EU
to
sort
of
make
sure
that
the
right
thing
happens.
A
B
A
So
I'll
say
that
if
you
consider
Microsoft
part
of
big
Tech
they're,
definitely
a
good
actor
in
The,
verifiable
credentials
Community
they
just
last
week
released
and
enter
which
I
I,
which
is
I,
don't
know,
I,
don't
use
their
Enterprise
products,
but
I
think
it's
in
the
active
directory
part
of.
If
you
use
their
products,
you
can
from
active
directory
issue,
verifiable
credentials
to
employees
and
and
others.
So
that's
very
positive
in
terms
of
a
massive
you
know
place
that
identities
are
managed
in
the
directories
of
like
millions
and
millions
of
Enterprises.
I
Yeah,
thank
you.
Actually,
a
follow-up
question
on
the
the
added
value
for
different
participants.
It
seems
like
most
of
the
issuers
are:
are
public
companies?
How
do
you
look
at
private
companies
issuing
verifiable
credentials
because
well
we
did
the
proof
of
concept
and
we
would
benefit
a
lot
if
other
parties
issue
credentials
but
issuing
our
own
credential.
We
give
away
information
because
a
customer
using
a
verifiable
credential.
We
don't
know
where
he
uses
it.
B
Yeah
I
I
think
it
really
depends
on
the
on
the
specific
uses,
in
certain
cases,
I'm
a
customer
right
and
I
paid
for
a
certain
credentials,
so
I'm
already
doing
that,
and
if
that
would
be
a
digital
one,
that
I
could
selectively
share.
With
my
lawyer
and
and
through
my
lawyer
to
the
US
government
I,
you
know
I
I've
done
that
literally
just
a
paper
version,
so
I
think
it
depends
on
the
cases
it
might
be.
One
of
those
not
it
might
be.
I
think
there's
a
there's.
B
B
I
think
it
depends
on
the
the
business
model
specifically,
but
if,
if
currently
a
a
customer
or
user
would
be
able
to,
you
know,
get
a
paper
version,
it'd
be
a
similar
process.
Right
where,
like
you,
can
walk
around
with
your
credential
on
paper
and
show
it
anywhere
and-
and
my
University
doesn't
know
who
am
I
showing
this
credential
to
and
what
it's
used
for.
B
If
it's
more
private
data
and
more
parties,
you
know
would
benefit
from
it,
I
think
there's
there's
a
good
amount
of
Industry
consortiums
going
on
and
I
think
that
was
yesterday.
I
had
quite
an
interesting
talk
with
Siemens,
for
example,
actually,
two
also
this
morning
at
the
keynote
where
they
really
tackled
with
the
ID
Union
project.
B
Quite
some
sort
of
I
say
groundbreaking
policy
and
sort
of
collaboration
efforts
there
to
make
sure
the
different
parts
from
different
suppliers
are
operational
in
the
same
space.
So
it
kind
of
where
we
are
now
I
think
it
will
require
some
collaboration
if
it's
sort
of
a
quite
competitive
space,
where
it
kind
of
sounds
like
where
you're
at
anything
bad.
C
So
so
we
have
a
lot
of
private
companies
using
verifiable
credentials
Solutions,
but
the
Focus
right
now
is
largely
risk
mitigation,
increased
efficiency
and
fraud,
reduction
and
I.
Think
as
we
as
verifiable
credential
technology
becomes
more
and
more
greater
mass
adoption,
especially
in
the
kyc
area,
you'll,
see
that
that
there
will
be
new
ways
of
creating
services
and
monetizable
services
and
products
around
that
mass
adoption.
If
we
have
interoperability,
of
course,
that's
a
that's
the
other
key
another
key
factor.
A
E
B
I
think
there
is
so
attrinsic
at
least
we're
sort
of
compatible
with
a
lot
of
chains,
both
permissioned
permissionless
and
even
chainless
forms
of
doing
SSI,
I
think
different
use
cases
will
or
different
customers
will
sort
of
want
certain
types
of
security
around
someone
to
be
completely
public,
really
accessible.
Visibility
like
an
ethereum
chain
or
whatever,
but
then
other
customers
would
want
something.
That's
a
little
bit
more
permissioned
right,
so
I
think
there's
I've
at
least
seen
a
movement
in
there.
A
I
think
there's
a
dead
method
called
side
tree
right
that
gives
capacity
for
the
generation
of
decentralized
identifiers
anchor
using
Markle
trees,
anchored
into
ethereum
the
Bitcoin
one
and
there's
one
called
orb,
which
I'm
not
sure
where
it's
anchored.
It's
also
a
side
tree
one.
So
there's
new
tools.
If
you
want
to
just
leverage
existing
private
or
existing
public
blockchains
and
don't
want
to
pay
a
lot
for
degeneration,
I
mean
many
of
the
permission.
Chains
have
a
cost
per
did
to
like
this.
This
this
part
of
the
process.
A
You
have
to
pay
every
time
you
put
one
on
Jane
and
there's
also
questions
about
the
viability
of
the
business
models
of
those
in
the
long
run
like
who's
going
to
keep
them
running
and
do
they
have
a
viable
business
model.
So
we'll
see
I
mean
it's
going
to
be
really
interesting
here
in
a
few
years
in
terms
of
how
things
play
out
and
what
what
what
the
market
really
wants
and
what
it
actually
needs
to
pay
for
and
and
I.
Don't
know
it's
a
journey.
So
with
that.