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From YouTube: IETF105-HRPC-20190723-1000
Description
HRPC meeting session at IETF105
2019/07/23 1000
https://datatracker.ietf.org/meeting/105/proceedings/
B
Good
morning,
everybody
welcome
to
HRP
seem
more
about
five
minutes
late,
but
that's
it's
the
first
session
of
the
day.
Thank
you
for
coming,
and
it
is.
It
is
just
me
today,
I'm
Mallory,
notall
I'm
with
article
19,
but
my
co-chair,
ivory
Doria
is
on
meet
echo
and
I.
Think
we're
all
ready,
I'm,
just
checking
yeah
I,
think
I
remote
presenters
are
all
here.
We
have
our
slides
loaded
and
the
blue
sheets
are
going
round
so
yep
you'll
see
we
have
a
nice
busy
agenda
up.
B
First
we're
going
to
have
a
talk
by
Juan,
Carlos
de
Martin
for
the
first
30
minutes,
I'll.
Let
him
introduce
himself
and
in
his
talk
and
then
we'll
discuss
two
drafts
that
are
adopted
by
the
research
already
one
is
on
draft
Association,
so
I
believe
Johan
Stefan
Carter
are
going
to
be
representing
on
that
and
then
draft
political
will
be
presented
and
discussed
by
Nielsen
over
remotely
and
and
then
we
have
also
a
draft
that
has
been
discussed
in
this
group
a
few
times
now
on
the
intersection
of
protocols
and
feminism.
B
Who've
been
doing
reviews
in
IETF
to
understand
how
that's
working
out
where
that
draft
is
and
any
other
things
related
to
doing
those
reviews,
and
then
we
alb.
So
if
anybody
has
something
to
add
an
a
OB
it'd
be
good
to
know
sooner
rather
than
later,
so
we
can
make
sure
we
have
enough
time
for
it.
So
if
you
have
something
that
you've
been
dying
to
put
on
the
agenda,
could
you
let
me
know,
let
me
know
now:
it
can
a.
We
are
doing
some
agenda
review.
B
C
B
B
So
the
the
tasks
that
we've
identified
under
that
Charter
are
to
look
at
the
relationship
between
protocols
and
human
rights.
But
specifically,
we
have
in
our
charter
to
focus
on
freedom
of
expression
and
freedom
of
assembly
and
as
well.
We
are
looking
at
the
guidelines
to
protect
the
Internet's
Human
Rights,
enabling
environment
for
future
protocol
development.
B
So
it's
we
were
inspired
by
RFC
69
73
and
that
is
sort
of
what
we
have
now
with
RFC
82
80,
which
I
will
get
to
as
part
of
the
history
and
yeah
generally
speaking,
to
to
talk
about
human
rights
in
this
setting
and
to
increase
awareness
and
and
raise
the
capacity
to
discuss
these
complicated
social
issues
in
the
context
of
in
engineering
and
technical
space.
So
we,
the
the
research
group,
is
seeking
to,
of
course,
put
together
internet
drafts.
B
The
focus
on
research,
we're
also
interested
in
going
beyond
as
well
to
look
at
the
potential
to
write
policy
and
academic
papers
that
relates
this
work
to
to
take
it
outside
of
this
space.
The
in
the
past
have
been
some
even
multimedia.
Expressions
of
this
there's,
a
film
called
the
Internet
of
Rights
I.
Believe
you
can
look.
B
You
can
view
that
at
the
research
group's
website
and
as
well
there's
been
some
in
the
past
data
analysis,
which
I
think
will
continue
to
have
to
do
to
really
look
at
what
are
the
dynamics
in
the
ITF
and
how
we
can
learn
something
from
that
and,
of
course,
we're
reviewing
protocols
as
well
so
yeah.
These
are
the
my
milestones.
If
you
will
so
we
have
the
proposal,
the
chartering,
the
film
and
RFC
80
to
80.
Those
are
the
main
highlights
we're
going
to
have
more
of
those.
B
That's
time
goes
on
and
right
now
we
have
three
active
drafts
which
we're
going
to
talk
about
today.
First,
we're
talking
about
Association
and
politics,
the
first
and
third
one
on
this
slide
and
then
at
the
end,
we're
talking
about
the
guidelines.
Draft
we've
had
other
internet
drafts
in
the
past,
but
those
are
expired
as
far
as
I
know.
So
that
is
where
we're
at
that
is
the
history
of
HR
PC.
D
Hello:
everyone,
hello,
chair,
Minecon,
Callister,
Martine
and
I'm
speaking
from
Turin,
not
wesson,
Italy.
First
of
all,
thank
you
for
inviting
me
to
this
group,
which
I've
been
following
through
the
many
lists,
but
it
was
the
first
time
that
I
actually
interact
with
all
of
you.
I
was
supposed
to
be
there
in
person,
unfortunately,
for
family
reason,
I
couldn't
travel
to
Montreal.
Sorry
about
that.
D
D
Okay,
thank
you
this.
What
I'm
presenting
is
a
is
a
summary,
but
you
will
find
a
bit
more
in
detail
in
a
publication.
My
quarters
are
elaborate
and
Tonya
vitro
ambulatory,
and
the
publication
is
available
both
on
the
springer
website
and
also
as
open
access
on
the
next
Center
website,
and
you
can
find
their
URL
over
there
next
slide.
Please.
D
B
D
Okay,
let
me
disable
the
video
according
to
the
instructions
I'm
receiving
through
the
chat.
Okay.
Now
the
starting
point
is
that
we
all
know
the
crucial
role
of
data
for
the
design
and
development,
certainly
on
machine
learning,
algorithms,
but
more
generally
of
recommendation
systems
and
many
digital
systems
just
to
next
slide.
Please
just
to
show
a
quotation
among
many.
This
is
taken
from
the
very
well-known
book
by
Katie
O'neil
weapons
of
mass
destruction.
D
Example
based
on
one
of
the
main
chapters
of
the
book
based
on
the
admissions
by
American
universities.
Obviously,
if
we
had
trained
do
training
on
the
basis
of
past
data
from
the
1960s
or
70s,
we
would
have,
of
course,
a
recommendation
system
or
our
enrollment
system,
and
that
would
show
the
same
biases
or
the
data
sets
collected
regarding
those
decades
next
slide,
please
now
to
avoid
discrimination
and
other
unintended
negative
effects,
we
will
focusing
on
unintended
negative
effects.
D
Of
course,
care
is
needed
at
all
stages
of
the
design
and
development
process,
of
a
machine
learning
system
of
a
recommendation,
system,
etc.
I
will
show
you
in
a
second
which
stages
were
focusing
on
next
slide.
Please
we're
focusing
at
the
beginning.
So
upstream
the
data
is
produced
is
collected
afterwards
we
have
a
data
set
and
this
data
set
is
available
for
use,
maybe
by
organizations
and
people
that
have
nothing
to
do
with
the
organization
that
collected
the
data.
So
we
have.
These
data
sets
they're
coming
from
somewhere.
D
So
the
key
idea,
which
is
by
the
way
not
original
other
people,
are
working
also
in
the
same
direction.
We're
just
contributing
his
effort
is
to
support
computer
scientist
using
data
sets
by
means
of
easy-to-understand
labels
so
or
more
broadly,
in
our
case,
easy
to
understand
the
approach
to
better
understand
the
implications
of
the
data
sets
they're
going
to
use
next
slide.
Please.
D
More
specifically,
now
there
is
a
fairly
large
body
of
research
showing
uncertain
data
characteristics
may
lead
sometimes
in
wastes
are
not
completely
self-evident
or
to
discriminatory
decisions
on.
Therefore,
it
is
important
to
identify
those
data
characteristics
and
to
show
the
potential
risk
of
those
data
characteristics,
if
not
understood
in
their
full
implications.
D
Next
slide,
please
so
what
we
are
focusing
between
step,
one
and
step
two,
so
the
data
sets,
as
I
mentioned,
had
been
elected
as
traveled,
who
knows
where
now's
is
in
the
hands
of
a
computer
scientist
who
wants
to
use
the
data
set
right
at
that
moment,
you
would
like
to
provide
a
framework
to
properly
use.
Those
data
sets
next
slide
next
slide,
please.
D
We
will
I
will
show
you
examples
in
the
following:
slides
that
represent
a
risk
of
discrimination
is
used
in
decision-making
now,
I
want
to
stress
the
word
risk
in
the
sense
that
we
are
not
sure
we
are
just
showing
that
there
are
potential
problems
with
the
data
set,
but
maybe
there
is
no
problem
at
all,
because
maybe
the
specific
application
and
the
specific
data
set
actually
is
perfectly
fine.
The
way
it
is,
but
we
want
to
raise
the
flag
saying.
Okay,
are
you
aware
of
that?
D
So
the
the
focus
and
the
objective
is
to
be
useful
to
software
engineers
in
order
to
make
them
more
aware
of
the
potential
risk,
and
so
if
they,
as
we
all
hope,
want
to
do
so
to
be
able
to
use
the
data
set
in
a
more
ethical
and
socially
aware
manner.
In
addition,
this
approach
these
labels
could
be
used
by
third
parties
to
do
some
sort
of
independent
verification.
We
can
also
imagine
situation
where
the
data
set
has
been
produced.
D
It
has
been
used,
and
then
there
is
a
potential
third
party
which
would
be
could
be
a
public
authority
or
could
be
a
certificate
of
some
sort
wants
to
look
in
the
process,
and
this
approach
can
help
with
a
certificate
or
to
more
quickly
do
its
job
next
slide.
Please
now,
as
I
mentioned,
this
is
with
not
claim
of
originality.
There
are
at
least
two
other
initiatives
we're
aware
of
that
working
in
the
same
direction.
D
While
one
is
the
data
side,
nutrition
label
project,
which
is
a
joint
project
between
the
media
lab
at
MIT
and
the
Berkman
Klein
Center
at
Harvard
and
another
project
that
is
similar
is
data
sheets
for
data
sets
by
gable
and
other
authors
next
slide.
Please,
now
what
in
our
approach
in
our
proposed
approach,
we
are
three
branches.
Three
main
building
blocks
and
I
will
show
what
they
are
in
a
second
next
slide.
Please.
D
First
of
all,
we
are
going
to
look
about
disproportionate
paths,
so
data
says
that
have
features
that
are
disproportionate
next
slide,
please.
Secondly,
we
are
going
to
look
at
the
features
of
the
data
set
that
they
are
correlated
or
in
the
extreme
case
collinear.
So
essentially,
a
linear
combination
of
other
features
in
data
set.
So
we
have
to
warn
users.
D
Look
it's
a
different
feature
in
the
data
set,
but
actually
it
can
be
very
easily
predicted
by
other
features
present
already
present
in
the
data
set
next
slide
and
third
point
which
has
been
introduced
by
one
of
the
co-authors,
who
is
a
software
engineer,
is
about
data
quality
and
now
it's
a
specific
topic
which
are
not
completely
familiar,
which
is
data
quality.
This
quarter,
which
is
Antonio
Boudreau,
who
is
anti-retro,
explained
us
that
there
is
within
the
international
standards
organization.
D
There
are
two
standards
regarding
assess
the
qualitative,
a
quantitative
assessment
of
data
and
therefore
he
introduced
this
third
branch.
Third,
third
building
block
to
assess
datasets,
which
is
data
quality
in
this
specific
sense
of
the
Izone
standards
and
which
are
articulated
into
five
quality
dimensions,
which
are
accuracy
completeness.
Consistency,
credibility
and
currentness
next
slide.
Please
now,
having
brought
together
these
three
building
blocks,
we
wanted
to
test
them
to
do
an
experimenter
to
do
an
exercise
with
a
specific
data
set
well
known
in
the
studies
of
this.
This
kind
of
problem.
D
There
is
information
in
this
data
set
on
default
payments
of
credit
cards
in
Taiwan,
from
April
to
September
2005,
and
in
these
data
sets,
you
find
demographic
factors
like
the
age
of
the
person,
create
data
information,
history
of
payment
and
build
statements
of
credit
card
clients.
So
there
is
a
various
number
of
all
features,
and
some
of
them
are
critical
in
the
sense
that
I
mentioned
before
next
slide.
Please,
for
instance,
the
data
set
do
not
cannot
contain
the
protected
attributes
race,
ethnicity,
but
contains
which
we
know.
D
Of
course,
it's
a
very
sensitive
feature,
but
contains
other
personal
information
that
can
be
used
in
a
discriminatory
way
if
apply
to
assess
creditworthiness,
for
instance
gender,
our
level
of
education.
So
let's
dig
a
little
deeper
and
see
what
we
found
looking
at
this
data
set
next
slide.
Please
now,
let's
look
at
the
first
one.
This
proportion
at
nasse
please
next
slide,
for
instance,
very
simple
factor
age.
We
see
that
this
and
the
histogram
of
age
of
very
easy
to
to
plot
this
feature.
D
We
see
that
there
is
a
high
prevalence
of
young
people
between
the
age
of
25
and
40.
Now
the
objective
of
showing
the
user
that
data
set.
This
information
is
just
it's
not
to
tell
them
there's
something
wrong
with
this.
We
don't
know
if
there's
something
wrong.
We're
just
saying
this
is
the
age
profile
make
sure
implicitly,
we
are
saying
make
sure
that
whatever
you
want
to
do
with
this
data
set
you're
okay
with
this
age
profile,
is
it
representative
of
the
people
in
Taiwan?
Is
it
representative
of
credit
card
owners
in
Taiwan?
D
Is
it
okay
for
your
application,
so
we're
just
making
clear
that
this
is
the
profile
and
you
may
be
okay
or
maybe
not
next
slide,
please
now
again,
looking
at
features
that
we
know
can
have
potential
implications
for
discrimination.
For
instance,
we're
saying
60%
of
the
people
in
this
database
are
women,
almost
half
of
them
attended
college
and
we
have
more
or
less
than
half
and
half
split
between
single
people
and
married
people
again.
D
We
know
that
all
these
features,
level
of
education,
gender
and
marital
status
can
have
implications,
can
be
potentially
discriminatory
if
not
used
properly,
and
so
we
are
showing
the
use
of
data
set.
This
is
the
way
it
is
in
this
data
set,
don't
use
it
blindly,
because
if
you
use
it
bland,
we
think
it
is
a
representative
of
the
general
population,
maybe
you're,
going
to
produce
unintended
consequences
in
your
system
next
slide.
Please
Croatian,
culinary
team
next
slide.
D
Now,
looking
at
the
features
within
data
set,
we
found
very
significant
correlations
between
the
condition
of
payment
default,
so
somebody
didn't
pay
the
credit
card
bills
and
their
level
of
education,
so
their
gender
and
their
marital
status.
Again.
These
three
dis
correlations
are
not
surprising
because,
for
instance,
if
you
look
at
the
level
of
education,
you
see
that
the
higher
the
level
of
education,
the
lower,
is
the
likelihood
of
a
payment
default
which
is
intuitive.
D
Considering
all
other,
whatever
everything
we
know
about
what
is
correlated
with
a
high
level
of
education,
but
we're
making
straightforward
easy
to
understand
for
the
data
set
user,
saying
if
you're
looking?
Beware,
if
you're,
for
instance,
using
the
marital
status
or
the
level
of
education
and
you're
using
it
using
it
without
being
aware
that
it's
a
highly
correlated
in
one
way
or
another,
with
the
payment
default.
D
Beware,
because
you
might
get
something
that
you
actually
is
not
what
you
wanted
next
slide,
please,
finally,
that
the
quality
I
will
only
mention
that
applying
the
two
ISO
standards
I
mentioned
before
at
you
can
only
apply
2
or
the
five
attributes,
accuracy
and
completeness,
which
are
actually
quite
good
for
this
specific
data
size
next
slide.
Please
I
conclude
so
this
approach,
which
is
easily
understood.
It
is
a
proposal
of
how
to
address
data
sets
and
then
produce
actually
graphically.
D
Appealing
labels,
like
the
two
other
projects
that
I
mentioned
are
working
on,
could
help
datasets
user
to
be
more
aware
of
the
potential
biases
and
problems
of
the
data
set
before
using
them.
So
the
moment
they
acquired
this
data
set,
they
are
helped.
They
are
supported
in
understanding
the
implication
at
least
some
of
them,
because,
of
course,
some
implications
are
difficult
to
to
assess
exactly
but
assemble
them,
therefore,
reducing
the
risk
of
downstreams
unintended
problems
also
for
human
rights.
Thank
you.
E
Is
labeling
data
in
this
way
not
potentially
likely
to
make
it
even
easier
to
discriminate?
And
if
you
say,
are
we
found
like
15,
colon,
ii-era
T's
between
LGBTQ
people
and
but
no
credit
card
defaults?
You
could
then
apply
that
to
learn
from
other
data
and
reveal
perhaps
privacy
information
about
people
through
labeling.
This
data
in
this.
D
Way,
that's
that's
why
I
used
so
many
times
the
objective
unintended,
because
we
are
assuming
that
the
data
users
is
in
good
faith,
and
so
we
are
helping
a
good
faith
data
user
if
it's
not
in
good
faith.
So
if
the
intention
is
actually
to
discriminate
sure
this
approach
could
be
helpful.
But
if
it's
in
bad
faith
they
could
do
what
we're
doing
anyway,
and
so
we
would,
they
would
reach
the
same
result
with
a
little
more
effort.
E
D
F
Different
question:
my
name
is
Joe
hall
from
CDT
in
the
US
DARPA
DARPA
right,
Defense,
Advanced
Research.
They
have
a
version
of
Android
they've,
been
working
on
for
a
long
time
now
for
five
years,
that's
called
privacy,
enhanced
Android,
and
it
does
some
of
this
tagging,
especially
in
the
developer
level
like
developers
using
this.
As
far
as
I
understand
it
I,
don't
understand
it
very
well.
F
Developers
using
this
kind
of
a
framework,
can
sort
of
talk
about
intentions
and
pre
label,
certain
kinds
of
sensor,
data
and
stuff,
like
that
wondering
if
you've
thought
about
sort
of
bringing
this
down
to
that
kind
of
level,
maybe
modifying
this
privacy
enhance
Android
to
also
not
just
be
about
privacy,
but
the
things
you're
talking
about
sort
of
a
richer
form
of
intentional
labeling
of
flows
in
objects
and
stuff.
Now.
B
Okay,
so
yeah
Joe
and
Stefan
we're
going
to
talk
about
draft
Association,
I
think
so,
let's
Jack.
F
All
right-
let's
do
this
so
Stefan
are
here-
is
the
violin.
I
are
here
to
talk
about
draft
Association.
We
haven't
modified
the
document
at
all
which
some
of
you
might
be
like
wait.
That
was
your
whole
job,
but
we
wanted
to
put
forward
some
very
specific,
deep
changes
that
might
deserve
some
discussion
and
then
we'll
take
it
from
the
list
and
then
actually
modify
the
document
within
about
a
month.
Maybe
a
little
longer.
Do
you
want
to
do
your
yeah.
G
So
yeah,
I'm
stefan
cultura
I'm,
not
your
converse,
t
soon
to
be
moving
at
investor
Maya,
so
I'm
trying
to
continue
to
this
draft,
but
I'm.
Also
a
communication
scholar
as
part
of
my
research
trying
to
understand,
what's
going
on
in
ITF
and
like
people
discuss
about
values
in
attic.
So
if
you
have
question
about
my
research,
please
come
to
me
after
so.
F
Petrelli
he's
studying
us
you're
now
made
aware
of
that
deal
with
it
cheers
thanks
next
slide.
Just
to
give
you
a
quick
little
background.
Draft
Association
is
one
of
the
specific
rights
that
flows
from
80
to
80
and
specific
to
Association
assembly.
We
took
the
helm
of
this
after
kneels
and
Gizella
handed
it
off
to
us.
It
feels
like
it's,
maybe
75
done
and
apologies
if
I'm
talking
too
quickly.
We
don't
have
a
lot
of
time
and
what
we
want
to
do
is
actually
run
through
some
of
the
bigger
thoughts
we
had
right
now.
G
So
just
a
recap
of
the
giraffe
for
those
who
didn't
read
it
so
the
research
question
it's
centered
about
a
research
question.
The
research
question
is
others.
They
architecture
of
the
Internet
enable
and/or,
animate
the
right
to
freedom
of
assembly
and
Association.
The
mythology
that
is
stated
in
the
giraffe
is
to
test
the
casual
relationship,
a
formulation
we
which
we
will
come
back
to
it,
and
so
basically,
our
protocol
calls
the
capacity
to
associate
or
assembly.
True,
okay,
section,
there's
basically
seven
protocol
cases
that
are
address
in
the
giraffe.
G
Ok,
yeah
yeah.
We
had
a
question
because
the
mythology
is
based
like
the
goal
is
to
establish
a
causality.
So
there
was
this.
Some
discussions
like
in
the
mailing
list
by
different
people
who
brought
this
and
like
it's
a
strong
objective
causality
to
establish,
like
our
protocol,
calls
Association
and
something
within
the
giraffe
of
the
draft
for
like
80
to
80,
actually
was
no
mention
of
causality
and
also
like
the
idea
that
technology
is
causing
stuff
has
been
a
bit
more
neurons,
true
studies,
for
instance,
in
STS,
and
communication
dry,
famine,
ISM.
For
instance.
G
They
talk
about
how
the
main
pack,
which
is
a
bit
less
ambitious,
and
we
don't
see
causality
as
a
major
element
yet
so
we
would
like
to
drop
like
the
idea
of
causality
and
maybe
replace
it
by
something
a
bit
more
neurons,
but
at
the
same
time,
in
a
way
to
show
that
the
protocols
can
have
an
impact.
But
although
there
are
other
dimensions
and
a
ways
also
to
circumvent
these
things,
but
there's
a
relation
but
made
me
baby,
not
causal.
So
that's
a
question.
F
Second,
one
is
the
church,
the
cases
that
are
chosen
right,
there's
ones
that
are
about
communication,
the
conversing
one,
there's
one's
about
object
or
file,
transfer
sharing
stuff.
That's
peer-to-peer
versioning,
then
there's
stuff
about
identity,
DNS
autonomous
systems,
but
it
strikes
us
that
there's
other
things-
and
maybe
these
were
left
out-
and
we
just
couldn't
find
a
record
of
that.
For
example,
app
stores
can
propose
pretty
significant
restrictions
on
the
ability
to
associate
by
removing
apps
that
millions
of
people
use.
F
Maybe
that's
not
an
IETF
thing
or
that's
not
something
that
we
need
to
care
about,
because
that's
not
about
protocols.
Otherwise,
you
know
think
about
things
like
SMS
right.
That's
I,
don't
know
if
that's
an
HF
vertical
I,
don't
think
so.
I
think
that
might
be
ITU
something
else.
What
I
don't
even
know,
but
these
things
you
know
like
the
vert,
the
difference
between
SMS
and
more
modern
kinds
of
messaging
systems.
They
do
have
impacts
on
assembly
I'm,
not
sure.
F
If
we
want
to
talk
about
that
in
this
draft
or
what
we'll
have
a
more
fulsome
discussion
on
the
list.
But
and
for
example,
we
talked
about
all
these
proprietary
non
Interop,
Oh
messaging
systems,
bye
neighbor,
we
don't
talk
about
signal
which
is
maybe
one
of
the
biggest
proprietary
non
interoperable
systems.
I
mean
it's,
it's
it's
I
guess
I
can't
say
proprietary,
because
it's
it's
free
software,
but
still
you
can
interoperate
with
it
good
luck
and
then
we're
wondering
if
there
are,
if
there
are
sort
of
longitudinal
cases
we
can
describe
that,
might
help.
F
Well,
no
one,
no
one,
now
or
whatever,
but
then
what
happened
was
when
the
government
realized
that
their
orders
to
ISPs
were
not
being
as
effective.
It
went
to
a
higher
level
of
an
effect
on
their
associational
right,
so
they
started
doing
internal
adversarial,
BGP
route,
announcements
for
certain
kinds
of
things
like
Twitter
right
and
in
those
cases
you
know
that
kind
of
an
interplay
that
kind
of
a
longitudinal
disruption
on
freedoms
of
Association
and
assembly.
Specifically,
in
those
cases,
that
might
be
a
good
thing
to
include
in
this
there.
F
Other
things
like
Molly
Sauter
has
a
great
book
about
distributed
denial
services
as
a
legitimate
form
of
protest
that
you
know
in
the
digital
world,
we
haven't
created
the
sidewalks
that
people
use
in
the
physical
world
to
be
able
to
protest
so
that
we
have
to
do
these
things
like
DDoS.
If
we
want
to
be
activists
and
disrupt
things,
there's
just
no
other
alternative
and
then
I
forgot,
the
gentleman's
name.
G
Yeah
I
wanted
to
add
so
just
from
my
understand,
maybe
Leon,
who
could
take
the
mic
after
this,
but
the
idea,
the
last
one
might
be
more
about
like
spamming
protocols.
So
let's
say
you
use
like
a
rise
up
email,
you
send
it
to
Gmail
and
Gmail.
Consider
it's
a
spam,
so
this
might
cut
off
the
capacity
to
assembly
between
activists.
So
that's
that
might
be
a
use
case.
The
section
we
put
that
the
lasas
is
like.
G
G
The
last
next
line
yeah
another
question
Association
on
propriety
platforms
and
we
felt
that
the
graph
is
implicitly
critical
of
large
propriety
we
and
are
not
entered,
and
so
we
I
this
word
I
have
this
word
platforms,
especially
search
such
as
major
social
media
platform.
So
it's
not
very
explicit
about
this,
but
there
are
son
sentence,
especially
at
the
end.
They
say
basic
here
open
an
open
platform.
Open
protocol
will
favor
more
Association
than
a
propriety
platform.
On
the
other
hand,
we
cannot
deny
that
social
media
like
Facebook
and
Twitter
day.
G
They
are
helpful
platform
for
Association,
so
we
know
like
we
know
many
activists,
we
put
Twitter
revolution
between
coats
yeah,
but
it
has
been
criticized,
but
it's
been
used
by
many
social
movements
as
a
way
to
associate
so
I
think
we
need
to
take
this
into
account
on
the
other
Anna.
Actually,
what
problem
might
be
that
Facebook
as
a
or
social
medias
like
like
a
lot
of
power?
Bi
like
this
I,
see
18
people?
Okay
without
it's
not
like
it's
not
regulated,
as
as
it
is
like
in
in
in
the
public
space,
okay,
so
yeah.
G
So
at
the
end,
it's
part
its
talk
about
the
forest
Association,
so
social
media
is
talking
about
forcing
the
association
of
people,
but
we
were
wondering
if
we
could
talk
about
freedom
of
association.
Let's
say:
can
we
discuss
it
them
yourself
from
social
media?
So
it
might
be
another
way
to
frame
the
discussion.
G
Thanks
like
okay,
so
the
last
question
is
more
about
the
HR
PC
work.
It's
something
I
thought
this
morning,
so
maybe
we
could
think
about
with
our
audience
who
we
have
the
idea
that
we
want
to
convince
her
to
to
talk
with
engineers,
but
these
documents
are:
they
also
attract
social
activists
and
social
science.
Academics
who
get
interested
by
ITF
and
may
later
influence
it.
So
in
all
the
writing,
this
we
might
think
as
like
you
are
we
talking.
Are
we
talking
only
our
to
the
folks
in
ITF?
G
F
Is
our
last
night?
Sorry,
so
there's
a
number
of
minor
change
changes
we
wanted
to
mention
during
our
presentation
after
each
case,
there's
sort
of
this
list
of
a
any
considerations.
It's
kind
of
mysterious
where
that
comes
from
I
mean
you
can
point
to
80
to
80,
but
we're
gonna
do
some
things
that
basically
clean
that
up
to
add
sentences
and
content.
You
know
make
it
less
of
a
list
and
more
of
a
narrative
or
something
that
isn't
as
mysterious
to
the
readers.
We
also
you
know
right
now.
F
The
document
isn't
very
clear
on
how
these
cases
were
chosen.
It
uses
some
some
words
like
these
are
you
know
typicality
and
a
paradigmatic
nature
of
the
cases,
but
we're
gonna
find
ways
to
talk
about
the
cases
we
talked
about
so
where
it
makes
a
little
more
coherent
sense
across
all
the
cases
and
it's
going
to
include
maybe
including
new
ones,
maybe
dropping
some
of
the
ones
we
have
now
again
will
propose
this
on
the
list
and
have
either
pull
requests
or
text
changes
that
you
guys
can
look
at.
F
Finally,
there's
a
section
in
section
7
that
talks
about
legal
limitations
that
you
know
only
lawful
limitations
on
rights
are
allowed
and
yeah.
That's
true
of
governments
that
have
signed
human
rights
treaties
and
feel
free
to
to
take
issue
with
this,
but
it
doesn't
apply
to
businesses
and
so
it's
sort
of
a
half
of
lawyer.
What
I
want
to
do
with
this
section
is
take
it
and
and
one
make
it
not
as
normative.
You
know
this
really
needs
to
be
a
descriptive
document.
F
I
think
right,
listen
totally
missed
what
we're
doing
here,
but
then
sort
of
talk
about
change.
It
lists
talking
about
granted
in
treaties
and
we'll
ground
it
in
treaties
for
governments,
but
then
talk
about
business.
Social
responsibility
is
the
thing.
That's
a
hook
for
why
businesses
care
about
human
rights
in
many
cases,
and
that's
it
sorry
to
be
so
long.
B
Thank
you.
Thank
you
guys.
Please,
let's
queue
up,
you
guys
have
post
a
lot
of
really
important
questions,
I
think,
and
it
would
be
great
yes
for
sure,
discuss
this
on
the
list.
But
if
there
are
thoughts,
I
have
a
whole
list.
I
don't
want
to
just
sit
here
and
talk
move
three
of
us.
So
if
great
meals
this
year
go
ahead,
meals.
H
H
Another
point
is
that
in
your
discussions
we
talked
about
the
book
by
Molly
Sauter.
We
also
had
a
Molly
Sauter
respond
to
the
list,
and
so
we
discussed
there
if
whether
ddos
could
be
a
positive
freedom
of
expression
and
that
discussion
then
ended
which
can
of
course
be
in
the
found
in
the
archives.
But
it
was
an
extensive
discussion
that
an
attack
is
an
attack.
Is
an
attack,
is
an
attack
and,
and
then
we
are,
we
achieve
achieved.
B
B
I
think
she
poses
a
lot
of
interesting
things,
but
I
think
to
say
that
DDoS
is
a
print
is
protected
because
it's
Association
I
think
is
a
stretch
and
also
within
this
context,
I
think
it's
important
to
remember
what
the
mission
of
IETF
is
and
what
I
RTF
is
and
to
understand
that
it's
important
to
have
a
very
solid
base
for
using
the
internet
and
DDoS
is
like
exposing
vulnerabilities
and
like
explaining
them
and
I.
Think
that's
not
the
role
here
like
if
people
want
to
still
do
that
with.
F
B
B
I
mean
yeah
I
think
it
would
be
actually
useful
to
just
go
back
to
the
list
to
do
2016
yeah,
it's
it's
in
there
for
sure
the
other
one
that
Neil's
mentioned
is
about
the
like.
B
Keeping
the
app
store
and
those
out
I
mean
one
thing
that
occurred
to
me
was:
it
could
be
similar
to
like
browser
extensions,
which
is
a
little
bit
closer
to
IDF,
but
still
not
quite
that's
one
thing
you
could
maybe
consider
yeah
and
then
just
the
last
thing
I'll
say
and
then
I'll
take
a
pause
for
Holy
Ana's
comment.
B
It's
just
that
I
would
really
support
inclusion
of
signal,
especially
because
we
have
MLS,
and
so
it
can
be
a
useful
case
study
in
the
spectrum
of
the
case
studies
you
have
because
many
of
them
like
if
we
talking
about
email
like
okay
there's,
maybe
some
changes
to
email,
but
it's
mostly
done
in
dust,
it's
a
historical
view,
but
you
can
also
then
look
at
things
that
are
in
situ,
and
that
could
be
one
also.
That
could
be
interesting.
For
that
reason,
Juliana.
I
About
the
question
about
using
Aris
RFC
format
to
both
audience,
I
think
it
is
really
important
to
use
RFC
format
until
how
to
write
this
format,
because
we
have
more
experience
like
talking
about
technology
without
completely
understand
how
does
it
work
to
the
public
now
to
grow
their
audience,
so
it
is
necessary
to
the
same
question.
I
do
to
myself
writing
the
feminist
dropped,
and
this
is
about
like
I'm,
not
sure
if
I
understood
our
nails,
but
the
every
question
is
like
we
are
talking
about
end
users
ever
I.
I
Think,
while
we're
talking
about
human
rights,
we
are
ever
talking
about
end
users,
and
here
sometimes
people
don't
think
they
are
talking
to
end
users.
So
we
need
to
find
the
way
to
translate
that
in
terms
of
protocols,
so
I
think
that's
very
important
and
that's
what
we
have
to
explore
and
find
the
way.
Thank
you.
B
My
last
comment,
I
think
for
now
is
just
the
you
mentioned
business
and
human
rights.
Yeah
I
think
it's
a
really
important
point.
I
also
wonder
I
mean
if
I'm
are
calling
right.
That
is
also
considered
in
the
in
80
to
80.
So
maybe
it's
worth
also
just
trying
to
see
what's
been
discussed
before
because
like
in
deeds
right
like
Human
Rights
is
an
obligation
of
states,
not
companies,
but
of
course
we
think
about
your
best
practice
for
companies
and
like
encouraging
them.
J
J
F
That
maybe
a
little
ambitious
but
I
think
about
a
month
is
when
we
hope
to
come
up
with
the
next.
Oh
three
and
probably
a
set
of
things
to
the
to
the
mailing
list.
They're
going
to
be
like
here
are
some
things
that
are
clearly
not
necessarily
done
yet
that
we
want
to.
You
know,
notify
for
you
and
then
point
to
things
that
we've
done,
that
you
might
want
to
interrogate
yourselves
well
it'll,
be
oh
three,
but
it's
not
going
to
be
done
a
month.
Roughly
sounds.
H
H
So
this
is
the
draft
political
we've
been
talking
about
it
for
a
bit,
but
I
think
what
just
happened
really
Illustrated
very
well
what
this
draft
aims
to
do,
namely
documenting
some
of
the
discussions
that
we've
been
having
and
that
also
keep
on
coming
back.
So
it's
also
like
creating
a
bit
of
a
platform
on
the
things
we
learned
together,
so
we
can
continue
discussing
them
and
learn
from
our
past
and
progress
at
the
same
time.
Next
slide.
Please,
second
slide.
H
So
what
trying
to
do
in
draft
political
is
document
a
long
list
standing
discussion
in
HR,
PC
capture,
some
of
the
observations
and
conclusions.
We've
made
a
document
positions
in
the
community
document,
the
positions
that
have
been
discussed
in
a
scientific
literature
on
this
topic
and
provide
a
platform
to
further
the
discussion
without
continuously
having
to
repeat
it.
So
it's
also
like
documenting
what
we've
been
doing,
but
we're
not
trying
to
do
is
trying
to
discuss
everything
possible
or
this
provide
new
guidelines
or
considerations
because
that
what
we're
doing
in
other
documents.
H
H
So
much
for
doing
that,
Julia
and
and
then
a
conclusion
of
previous
meeting,
as
many
of
you
will
remember,
was
try
to
do
less
and
try
to
make
it
more
concrete
and
try
to
stay
away
from
anything,
especially
and
try
to
make
it
as
concrete
and
observable
as
possible,
and
that's
what
I
try
to
do
so.
I've
done
that
by
simplifying
the
research
question,
removing
recommendations,
a
removing,
secondary
or
indirect
arguments,
for
instance,
about
the
IITs
financial
position,
about
interoperability
and
about
layer
competition.
H
Those
were
interesting
arguments
that,
in
that
were
related
to
the
to
the
research
question,
but
not
necessary
to
answer
them
so
I
remove
them.
That
also
allowed
me
to
create
a
new,
shorter,
clearer,
abstract,
remove
definitions
of
protocols
or
standards,
because
those
were
not
needed
added
methodology
text
to
make
it
more
tight
and
cleaned
up
many
typos.
So
that's
where
we
are
with
0-3
I
think
what
we
have
now
seems
is
much
tighter
than
what
we
had
and
I'm
very
curious
to
hear
from
people
where
they
think
the
document
is
at
the
moment.
Thanks.Thanks.
B
Could
you
talk
a
little
bit
about
the
recent
discussion
we've
had
on
the
list
Neil's
because
I
think
that
came
after
this
version
and
just
wondering
if
you
can
go
through
if
there
are
any
of
those
any
of
those
points
in
the
discussion
that
you
think
you
might
actually
take
on
board
for
another
version
or
if
you've
been
satisfied
with
the
discussion
you're
not
going
to
make
changes.
I
can
see
that
going
both
ways,
but
just
wondering
your
opinion.
H
B
H
F
M
Gosha
with
Grover
CS,
so
just
following
up
on
Andrews
comment
on
the
mailing
list:
do
you
think
it's
in
the
scope
of
the
graph
to
analyze
the
positions
presented
by
the
ietf
I
RTF
community?
Or
do
you
think
that's
how
the
scope?
Because
in
a
way
the
draft
currently
does
do
that
by
by
lumping
together,
at
least
in
four
five
categories,
the
thoughts
and
coupling
them
with
literature
on
the
topic
but
I
think
when,
when
people
answer
the
question
are
net-like
protocols,
political
they're
evening,
they're
either
answering
the
question
or
the
process
is
political.
H
H
Something
very
constructive
because
it,
this
is
simply
what
we
observed
and
then
what
we
then
try
to
add
in
analysis
in
point
five
to
see.
How
does
that
break
down
into
into
practice
when
we
look
at
standards
so
I'm
not
sure
how
I
could
further
analyze
the
positions
under
in
a
more
constructive
way
and
I'm
a
bit
careful
about
the
discussion,
but
I
would
like
to
hear
very
much
more
about
like
the
process
versus
the
outcome
or
the
output,
because
a
protocol
of
course
is
a
process
in
itself
right
and
it's
never
a
thing.
H
N
Hi
Joseph
man
with
these
algorithms
foundation,
so
I
have
a
question
but
I'm
not
sure.
If
I'm,
it's
gonna
be
a
completely
naive
question,
because
I
was
doing
two
sessions
right
now.
But
when
I
look
at
the
draft,
I
don't
see
explicit
reference
to
20
21
19
and
the
uses
of
like
the
capitalized
must
and
shell
and
things
like
that,
and
this
would
actually
be
a
pretty
interesting
RFC
to
make
use
of
those
terms
in
that.
In
that
formal
way,.
H
B
If
you
can
try
to
answer
the
question,
does
this
draft
achieve
what
we
would
like
for
it
to
achieve,
which
is
to
help
establish
the
boundaries
of
the
ongoing
and
pervasive
discussion
about
what
or
not
protocols
are
political?
So
does
this
draft
do
achieved
that
for
you
and
your
use
cases
and
the
discussions
that
you've
had
in
this
space?
B
I
The
draft
on
feminism
and
protocols
we
presented
it
in
the
last
meeting
so
next
and
it
was
a
very
preliminary
version
where
we
were
trying
to
cover
two
different
problems.
One
was
on
the
user
level
and
it
was
like
taking
at
the
feminist
principles
of
the
internet,
to
collect
some
cases
and
to
relate
it
to
protocols,
and
the
other
was
try
to
identify
some
manifestations
of
gender
of
gender
discrimination
in
the
IETF
archive,
so
just
to
say
that
that
part
was
gone.
So
in
this
second
note
the
first
version
version
one.
I
To
understand
how
protocols
can
enable
or
restrict
some
specific
human
rights
that
this
relation,
so
they
use
some
specific
concepts
and
we're
trying
to
use
that
format
to
make
it
with
feminist
principles
of
the
internet.
We
already
presented
what
the
feminist
principles
are,
but
you
can
find
it
in
feminist
internet.org.
I
So
the
difference
is
that
in
human
rights
this
is
pretended
that
everyone
has
guaranteed
their
rights
equally,
but
the
feminist
principles
changes
that
question
understanding
that
not
everybody
has
the
same
capacity
to
have
their
rights
guaranteed.
So
our
framework
is
intersectionality,
which
is
a
concept
used
from
the
black
feminism
from
the
United
States,
but
now
used
in
different
parts
of
the
global
south.
I
I
An
example
is
me:
in
my
country:
I
am
ultra
privileged,
but
here
I
am
like
not
exactly
oppressed,
but,
for
example,
in
my
country,
I
speak
English
very
well,
but
here
I
feel
so
bad
because
I
don't
speak
English
and
it
is
very
difficult
for
me
to
express
what
I
am
thinking
yes,
I
have
studied,
as
many
people
in
my
country
can
not
do.
I
have
a
superior
grade
of
studying
yes
at
a
postgraduate,
but
here
but
I
studied
cultural
studies.
I
I
So
this
is
one
point.
The
other
are
the
different
operations
I
one
person
can
feel
which
are
determined
by
gender
race,
sexuality,
age
studies,
geographical
locations,
abilities,
health
conditions
and,
among
others-
and
this
is
all
that
other
important
concept,
which
is
matrix
of
domination,
is
the
way
in
which
powers
that
produce
and
reproduce
intersecting
operations
are
organized.
So
in
the
draft
we
have
this
question.
I
I
And
yes,
that's
where
we
are
it's
a
very
difficult
issue
and
ok,
that's-
and
this
is
difficult
because
it's
different
from
the
human
rights
because
it
is,
it
has
like
different
points.
Now
one
is
access,
but
we
have
movements
too
and,
for
example,
in
movement
inside
movements,
we
have
governance,
and
this
part
of
governance
has
is
related
to
how
do
we
participate
in
these
spaces?
I
But
this
is
a
working
progress,
we're
trying
to
address
it
better
and
next
steps
we're
developing
a
methodology
which
tries
to
be
more
collaborative
and
participative.
We
presented
this
draft
in
the
last
IFF
in
valencia
and
the
problem
was
that
we
were
with
women
working
on
infrastructure,
but
almost
everybody
didn't
know
about
ITF
and
what
is
it
about?
So
it
was
like
Mallory
and
I
presenting
and
everybody
saying
like
Oh,
interesting,
nothing
to
say
so.
I
The
next
place
where
we
were
we
are
going
to
share
it,
is
in
the
citizen,
lab
Summer
Institute
and
there
we
are
going
to
make
more
practice
workshop
more
practical
workshop,
trying
to
mix
the
feminist
principles
with
some
protocols
texts
and
to
see
what
can
we
do
with
this,
based
on
the
concepts
represented
or
are
present
in
80
to
80,
and
so
we
hope
to
find
some
cases
into
a
script.
It's
better
here
and
yes,
that's
something
to
say.
Thank.
B
You
Juliana
yeah
I'll
just
add
to
that.
In
addition
to
sort
of
in-person
presentations
and
discussions
with
feminists,
you
know,
movements
and
organizations.
We've
also
got
some
mailing
lists
where
we
could,
where
we've
kind
of
been
thinking
about.
You
know
how
to
present
this,
to
get
some
online
discussion
as
well.
We've
had
people
opportunistically
reach
out
to
us
that
are
meeting
face
to
face
it's
tech
and
social
justice.
Events
that
have
come
across
this
and
reached
out
to
us
with
their
thoughts,
so
yeah
I
think
it's
actually
part
of
it's
very.
O
We'll
see
how
that
goes,
I
would
encourage
you,
don't
worry
about
feeling
small
I
feel
very
small
in
this
surrounded
by
technical
people
and
I'm
moderately
technical,
but
we
all
have
our
environments
where
we
experience.
We
are
privileged
or
power
and
others
where
we
don't
I'm,
still
searching
for
one
where
I
can
feel
moderately
powerful
in
it,
but
anyway,
so
encourage
you
not
not
to
worry
about
that,
but
in
the
form
of
use
cases,
I'd
also
encourage
you,
maybe
look
at
asylum
and
Refugee
cases
there.
It's
that
their
their
place
to
look
yes,.
I
Yes,
it
is
the
question
about:
intersectionality
is
trying
to
I,
could
see
those
cases
but
we're
based
on
the
feminist
principles
of
the
internet,
which
has
like
sexual
and
gender
lens
to
understand
these
problems.
But
of
course
we
have
to
our
question
is
about
discrimination
and
marginalized
groups,
so
this
is
not
the
same
to
be
like
man,
refugees
like
political
for
political
persecution
or
to
be
I,
don't
know
a
person
who's
escaping
from
war
and
has
no
economic
resources
and
gets
to
another
country,
and
it's
not
the
same
to
be
women,
the
woman
or
something.
O
I
would
I'd
sorry
I
would
take
it
further
than
just
the
simple
or
the
the
first
stage
of
crossing
the
border
as
a
refugee
crossing
an
international
border
rather
than
a
domestic
border,
but
the
once
you'll
cross
their
new
you
register
is
asylum
seeker,
then,
within
the
asylum
seeker
side
of
may
take
many
years
until
you
were
granted
asylum
or
something,
but
within
that
that
area
I
think
there
are
many
use
cases
you
could
pick
up
where.
I
B
I
mean
I
think
you're
right
to
bring
it
into
like
there's
an
intersectional
purview,
so
it
doesn't
even
necessarily
need
to
be
all
about
gender,
but
it
could
be
within
the
intersectional
approach
to
looking
at
power
dynamics.
My
the
only
thing
I'm
struggling
with
to
understand
your
case
is
how
this
might
be
impacted
by
the
internet
or
specifically,
protocols
but
yeah.
If
you
wanted
to
get
back
in
the
queue
we
can
continue,
the
discussion
I
think
it
would
be
interesting
to
understand
your
point.
Niels
you're
up
and
then
Jonathan.
H
Yeah,
first
of
all,
thanks
so
much
for
the
authors
for
for
bringing
this
work
forward
and
I.
Think
it's
very
good,
because
it's
really
opening
up
a
new
discussion
in
in
the
field
where
one
would
not
expect
so,
that's
always
very
exciting
and
I
think
it
really
helps
us
push
the
boundaries
and
think
further
and
also
think
further
further
about
power.
And
that's
also
what
my
question
is
about.
H
So
how
are
you
going
to
operationalize
how
power
is
is
understood
and
then
especially
what
I'm
interested
in
and
that's
maybe
also
a
part
that
we
removed
from
a
draft
political,
so
it
might
be
interesting
to
edit
here
or
to
consider
it
and
that's
economy,
because
oftentimes
in
capitalist
society,
power
is
is
produced
through
capital,
social
or
economic
or
otherwise.
So
there's
at
the
same
time,
going
on
the
development
of
the
draft
on
internet
consolidation
and
the
internet.
H
Architecture,
which
is
an
IAB
documents
and
I
was
I,
was
I
was
I'm
very
curious
how
to
intersectionally
take
that
into
account
and
what
could
be
counter
examples
if
one
would
take
feminist
principles
into
account?
How
that
could
lead
to
other
architectures
and
other
principles,
but
maybe
I'm,
adding
too
much,
but
I'm
really
curious?
What
I
would
look
like?
Thank
you.
I
Yes-
and
this
is
a
capitalist
solution
which
is
mainly
or
used
a
lot
but
I
think
we
have
to
be
like
very
careful
about
how
to
talk
about
it
and
I
I've
learned
and
here
I
participating
in
the
list
is
that
we
have
to
try
to
address
some
very
little
and
specific
problems
and
I
think
with
the
feminist
principles.
This
is
difficult,
but
we
have
to
let
many
problems
out
of
the
scope,
so
I
don't
know
how
to
solve
that.
But
that's.
That
is
what
we
try
now,
but,
for
example,
they
drop
the
participation.
B
H
Yeah
thanks
so
much
for
that
Juliana,
but
you
really
made
me
excited
about
and
about
a
new
paragraph
about
equity
equality,
labor
and
knowledge,
but
but
but
it
might
be
placed
for
another
draft,
but
I
think
it
will
be
really
exciting
to
touch
upon
those
whether
in
this
draft
or
another
one.
So
I'll
definitely
put
it
on
my
on
my
think
about
it
list
a
bit
more
but
yeah
fascinating
thanks.
So
much
for
the
work
yeah.
B
I
did
I
didn't
go
those
things
fit
into
this
if
you
read
the
feminist
principles
of
the
Internet,
there's
a
whole
section
on
economy
and
there's
several
sub
points,
and
this
is
one
of
the
things
that
excites
me
about
doing.
This
draft
is
that
you
know
human
rights
are
not.
They
don't
confront
power
and
economy
the
same
way.
So
that's
what
this
framework
will
allow
us
to
do,
which
is
quite
exciting.
B
E
One
one
thing:
I'm
curious
as
to
whether
it
really
fits
in
here
is
privacy
in
as
much
as
it
is
very
difficult
to
discriminate
against
somebody
if
you
do
not
know
their
categorization.
So
if
you
don't
know
that
somebody
is
an
ethnic
minority,
a
woman
now
G
bTW,
then
you
can't
discriminate
because
on
a
sort
of
very
literally
sense
you
can't
discriminate.
You
can't
distinguish
between,
and
so
is
there
a
space
here
for
saying.
Actually,
privacy
is
probably
the
the
most
literal
way
to
reduce
discrimination
on
the
Internet.
I
I
Think
the
feminist
principles
are
more
focused
on
the
question
about
feminine
or
feminist
women
and
queer
people
autonomy
more
than
how
can
be
protected.
So
this
is
a
very
different
question
because,
as
you
know,
we
have
a
very
big
gender
gap,
digital
gender
gap
from
their
use
to
the
production,
and
so
the
problem
is
not.
Ok,
you
discriminate
and
to
recognize
or
better
recognize
the
differences,
and
it
can
be
named
like
positive
discrimination,
but
the
issue
here
is
other,
and
this
is
more
like.
I
How
can
we
make
our
own
choices
about
what
we
want
to
do?
How
can
we,
of
course,
is
the
same
question
I
think
it
was
in
political
like?
Can
the
internet
make
this
necessarily
better
or
the
society
just
will
be
better
or
the
internet?
It
will
be
better
only
if
the
society
gets
better,
and
this
is
I
think
it's
not
necessary
to
discuss
it
here.
But
the
problem
here
is
more
than
more
about
autonomy
than
specifically
privacy
and
privacy
is
one
of
the
chapters
of
the
feminist
principles.
I
B
Add
to
that
I
mean
just
another
way
of
saying
exactly
what
you've
said.
Julianne
is
that
traditionally
in
like
like
in
the
theory
of
intersectional
feminism,
it's
it's
fine
to
be
able
to
pass.
If
you're,
you
know
a
LGBTQ
person
or
hide
or
to
avoid
discrimination.
But
part
of
the
point
is
to
not
do
that,
because
that's
part
of
the
layers
of
oppression,
so
I
don't
know
that
it's
exactly
the
same,
because
I
think
on
the
internet.
B
We
are
looking
at
protecting
everyone's
privacy,
but
when
you're
expressing
feminism
as
like
a
desire
for
the
world
that
you
want,
hiding
and
not
being
yourself
is
not
one
of
those
things.
So
you
turn
it
into
a
positive
expression
of
you
know:
autonomy,
which
is
maybe
another
way
of
looking
at
at
privacy,
but
is
a
positive
expression
of
that,
rather
than
like,
if
I
just
weren't,
who
I
am
then
I
wouldn't
face
these
issues
right.
L
Hello,
my
name
is
Sophie,
so
thank
you
so
much
for
this.
The
contribution
your
work,
I
think
this
is
tremendous,
and
it's
been
we've
been
looking
for
that
for
many
years.
So
thank
you
so
much
for
bringing
this
to
the
table.
Yeah
I
think
it's
a
crucial
work.
So
I
guess
I
have
two
questions.
My
first
question
would
be:
how
has
this
draft
been
received
in
within
this
community?
So
that
would
be
the
first
question.
L
Let's
proof
from
this
perspective,
because
I
think
there's
a
there's
also
a
difference
there
and
I
guess
there
are
already
quite
a
number
feminists
technologies
or
promise
tech
infrastructures
there
are
being
built
and
that
are
in
operations
whether
there
are
feminist
servers
or
more
complex
feminists
tech
infrastructures
that
exists,
and
so
we
can
probably
learn
from
them
as
well.
I'm
sure
you're
in
touch
with
them,
because
you've
been
at
the
IFF
but
I
think
they
might
have
a
sense
of
what
could
be
feminist
protocols
and
standards.
L
I
Yes,
thank
you.
Yes,
of
course,
I
think
that
our
dreama
is
feminist
protocols
and
standards,
but
this
may
be,
but
here
we
are
asking
for
the
impacts
from
a
feminist
perspective,
yeah,
so
that's
question
and,
of
course,
we're
trying
to
work
together
with
women
working
on
technology,
using
standards
dealing
with
standards
and
protocols.
So
my
experience
in
iff
was
that
we
need
to
find
a
way
as
similar
to
a
question
in
the
draft
on
Association
I.
I
Think
that's
a
big
question
to
us,
because
we
have
to
find
a
way
to
bring
this
information
about
protocols
to
them
because
they
say
this.
This
is
so
boring.
This
is
not
my
space.
This
is
not
my
interest.
I
just
want
to
have
my
own
server
to
serve
our
movement.
Yes,
for
example
in
feminists
is
infrastructure,
so
we
think
this
is
important
to
bring
a
their
knowledge
and
to
embed
it
in
or
dropped.
I
P
Hello
and
on
Marcus
from
foundation
thanks
for
your
work,
first
of
all,
and
then
two
things
I
think
the
first,
which
could
help
a
lot
of
people
here,
who
probably
don't
see
how
this
could
fit
into
the
ITF
or
ITF,
is
to
collect
cases
concrete
cases
how
women
or
other
marginalized
groups
are
oppressed.
I
can
imagine
originally
with
privacy,
as
I
mentioned,
or
or
or
with
censorship
in
social
media,
or
something
like
that
I
think
since
it
possible,
and
the
second
thing
is
I
think
you
should
connect
to
Sarah
Jamie
Lewis
from
open
privacy.
P
She
wrote
even
a
book
on
queer
privacy
and
she's
based
in
Vancouver
Canada,
so
perhaps
for
one
of
the
next
ITA
ITF
sessions,
which
will
be
there
I
think
she's,
an
expert
in
cryptography
and
and
and
as
also
this
correct,
his
right
mind
set,
let's
say
to
I
think
to
think
about
in
these
areas
here.
So
this
could
be
very
beneficial
and
she
helped
us
in
Switzerland
to
get
rid
of
Internet
voting.
That's
an
author
story,
but
I
could
also
help
with
connecting
otherwise
I
think
that
could
be
beneficial
to
this.
B
What
film
servers
lists
like
other
things
and
ask
people
if
they
could
give
us
their
time-
and
we
can-
you
know
just
have
a
conversation
about
maybe
even
develop
questions,
but
I
would
just
love
to
have
a
conversation
about
this
with
them
both
ways
right
like
here's,
what
we're
trying
to
do?
What
are
your
reactions
to
some
of
that
and
trying
to
collect
a
bit
of
it?
That
would
be
really
fun
too.
G
G
Actually
your
experience,
because
last
week
I
met
somebody
who
said
are
we
talking
about
this
draft
feminist,
RFC
and
I
was
a
bit
surprised
about
this
and
I
feel
like
we
have
the
impression
well
I
had
the
impression
that
the
work
we
do
here
was
more
to
interact
within
ITF,
but
actually
it's
a
good
tool
also
to
send
symbolize
other
people
about
the
work
of
ITF.
So
I
think
it's
really
great
that
you're
like
bringing
this
RFC
to
groups
that
they
don't
know
anything
about
RFC
and
discuss
this,
so
they
can
think
about
like.
G
What's
the
impact
of
this,
the
other
thing,
it's
just
an
idea
where
I
have
different
ideas,
but
just
to
go
to
move
from
a
feminist
perspective
on
protocol
to
feminist
protocols.
There's
the
RFC
that
the
andrew
is
chairing.
I've
shared
on
the
alternative
network
deployments
where
they
analyze
different,
like
different
kind
of
community
networks
and
alternative
network.
It
could
be
a
good
model.
B
Yeah
I
mean
some
of
the
like
what
you're
alluding
to
Sophie
as
well
as
it.
There
are
implementers
out
there
implementers
of
IETF
protocols,
because
they're
running
infrastructure,
they're,
just
very
small
right
and
they're,
very
like
they
have
their
own
worlds
and
they're
important
in
that
world,
but
by
comparison
to
the
folks
that
come
here,
they're,
very
small
but
I
think
it
is
a
that,
so
the
process
of
engaging
a
dialogue
with
them
could
help
us
cite
their
work.
B
Thank
you.
Thank
you.
So
much
Juliana
I
would
just
too
in
that
section
and
move
on
to
the
next
one,
which
is
you
gray,
Shabbat,
just
to
say
that
one
of
the
things
that
we
are
looking
forward.
This
is
a
bit
more
engagement.
So
so
far
the
reaction-
it's
not
has
been
vine
in
the
sense
that,
but
there's
just
not
been
much
of
one.
B
So
if
people
could
really
engage
and
help
guide
it,
because
it's
very
an
institute
draft
like
it's
not
anywhere
and
your
complete,
but
that's
a
good
thing-
we're
taking
our
time
we're
trying
to
do
it
right
and
we'd,
really
appreciate
feedback
at
any
stage,
so
feel
free
to
engage
with
them.
Okay,
that's
the
end!
B
M
M
So
yes,
so
the
draft
was
updated
in
May
after
the
last
meeting
Dress
your
holes
reviews.
Thank
you
very
much.
Lots
of
changes
in
language
very
useful
I
think
mostly
to
do
with
how
we
are
talking
about
the
Internet
itself.
Firstly,
we
changed
that
to
one
of
a
design
language
like
these
are
the
goals
we
want
to
achieve
rather
than
the
internet
behaves
in
this
way.
M
M
If
you
have
any
suggestions,
so
that
like
please
feel
free
to
suggest
it
here
or
on
the
list,
and
we
notice
that
there
are
still
some
guidelines
which
don't
have
an
explanation
with
it
as
in
like
it
poses
a
question,
but
offers
no
help
for
why
that
question
is
relevant,
so
we're
still
filling
those
gaps
are
and
yes
happy
to
do
anything.
The
research
group
would
like,
please
feel
free
to
step
on
the
mic.
If
you
have
any
suggestions.
M
Yes
and
how
you
can
help
so
when
you
are
participating
in
IETF
groups
and
you're
reviewing
a
document,
perhaps
a
useful
thing
to
do
would
be
e,
so
you
recognize
that
there,
like
this
particular
technical
choice,
might
have
an
impact
on
Human
Rights.
Then
you
just
email,
HR
PC,
with
that
specific
thing
and
I
mean
I,
mean
that's
a
way
to
avoid
even
reading
this
draft
by
the
way.
N
M
H
Hi,
oh
I
was
reading
a
book
and
I
have
a
question
to
you
all.
What
do
you
think
it's
useful?
It's
the
book
called
value,
sensitive
design,
shaping
technology
with
morale
and
agitation
by
budget
Friedman
and
Henry,
and
there
I
found
different
ways
in
which
people
have
thought
and
looked
at
and
assessed
the
impact
of
technology
on
values
and
their
intertwine,
Minh
and
I
thought.
This
could
be
interesting
for
draft
guidelines,
but
the
whole
idea
of
draft
guidelines
by
keeping
them
guidelines
and
not
making
them
such
a
monster
as
RFC
80
to
80
is
so.
H
B
H
H
Engineers,
Arctic
architects
and
policy
makers,
analyzed
technology
and
how
it
worked
an
hour
did
not
work
well
and
it's
a
bit
higher
scope
than
what
we've
been
working
on
and
they've
also
been.
They
got
good
literature,
they
got
good
historical
context,
so
it
might
be
interesting
to
situate
our
work
a
bit
deeper.
Maybe
that's
not
the
best
way
to
do
it
in
guidelines.
I
don't
know.
So
it
was
just
the
thoughts
and
I
just
wanted
to
throw
it
up
and
hear
what
people
thought.
F
F
H
Cool
I
tried
to
make
it
to
Paris,
Marie
and
chuck
it
in
and
see
where
we
are
next
next
meeting.
Thank
you
need.
B
Anybody
feel
free
to
come
to
the
mic.
I
just
wanted
to
make
a
couple
of
clarifying
statements
about
human
rights
for
you
team
lists,
so
that
will
be
closed
down.
We
I'm
announcing
it
officially
now,
but
also
some
email
to
the
list
and
then
Colin
it's
going
to
close
it
and
then
yes,
I
had
written
to
HR
PC
about
that
and
suggested
that
people
inform
HR
PC
if
they
do
a
review
against
the
guidelines
document
or
80
to
80
I.
B
Bring
the
HR
PC
list
into
the
process
of
the
review
discussion
so
like
if
you're
sending
a
review
to
a
working
group
list,
don't
see
CH
RPC,
but
once
that
discussion
has
run
its
course
and
you've
learned
something
through
the
process
of
you
know,
throwing
out
your
ideas,
how
they've
been
incorporated
or
not
into
than
the
next
version
of
the
draft
document,
etc,
etc.
Do
a
post-mortem
do
a
debrief
about
that
with
HR
PC,
because
that
will
be
what's
helpful
to
learn
from
that
process
not
to
be
involved
in
the
process.
Does
that
make
sense?
A
M
One
more
thing
about
the
draft:
there
was
a
recent
discussion
about
the
right
to
legal
remedy
on
the
list
if
I
am
of
the
personal
opinion
that
so,
in
fact
this
was
brought
up
in
review.
One
time
which
was
the
registration,
a
extensions
protocol
working
group,
and
but
that
was
in
a
context
where
the
right
to
legal
remedy
was
enforced,
I
mean
in
a
context
where
it
was
used
against
the
state.
M
So
you
should
have
the
right
to
legal
remedy
against
the
state
and
I
still
think
it's
an
exceptional
case,
because
most
protocols
don't
directly
deal
with
government
of
state
bodies.
But
if
you
have
strong
or
weak
opinions
about
this,
please
feel
free
to
step
about
in
what
form.
If
more
text
needs
to
be
included
about
the
right
to
leave
remedy.
M
So
after
the
last
meeting
there
has
like
no
review
experience
been
brought
to
the
list,
so
not
much
of
a
huge
update
on
that,
but
I
I
know
from
talking
to
people
that
to
our
incoming
don't
want
to
spoil
those,
though
so,
does
anyone
is
anyone
using
the
guidelines?
Has
anyone
written
the
human
rights
considerations
section
lately
who
wants
to
discuss
their
experience
there?
Okay,
there
is
a
link
which
so
some
authors
of
RFC's
and
drafts
have
started,
including
a
human
rights
considerations
action.
Sometimes
it's
not
actually
rooted
in
human
rights.
B
Yeah
doesn't
sound
like
anybody's
gonna
talk
about
there
of
you,
so
that's
okay
and
you're
gonna
message
us
soon
about
that.
Yours,
yeah,
okay,
in
the
post-mortem
end,
are
you
planning
on
I
mean
you
said
you
alluded
earlier
to
like
you're
gonna
make
a
change
to
the
editorial
mistake
in
the
next
version.
Do
you
have
an
ETA
for
that
or
you're
gonna?
Wait
until
you
get
substantive
comments
to
do
another
version.
What's
your
plan?
Yes,.
M
B
M
One
thing
is
because
I
repeated
this
call
for
the
second
time,
which
is
that,
if
you
are
writing
a
human
rights
consideration
section
but
from
the
ones
I've
noticed,
I
think
we'll
just
get
in
touch
with
them
personally.
I
think
that's
the
better
route,
okay
yeah!
So
those
three
four
items
on
our
to-do
list:
okay,.
B
So
yeah
we
are
ending
early,
so
amazing
timekeeping
everyone,
but
there's
also
opportunity
for
other
things.
If
you
would
like
to
raise
them
and
you
have
any
other
business,
no
Melinda,
if
you'd
like
to
say
something,
Carlin
I,
don't
know
whatever
the
board's
yours
I,
don't
think
that
their
I
plan
to
say
something
about
the
reviews.
I
think
there's
no
other
housekeeping
Audrey
you're,
also
on
the
line.
So
if
you
want
to
step
up
to
the
mic
in
Medeco,
please
do.
B
Alright
well.
Thank
you.
Everyone
thanks
for
coming
thanks
to
the
presenters
and
to
the
authors,
editors
reviewers!
Thank
you
all
we'll
see
you
next
time
in
Singapore
and
on
the
list
please
sign
in
to
the
blue
sheets.
If
you
haven't
done
that
yet
I
appreciate
that
and
there's
there
should
be
another
one
somewhere.
If
you
could
bring
that
up
to
the
front
nevermind
it's
right.
There
thanks.
Everyone.