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From YouTube: IETF96-IMTG-20160719-1000
Description
IMTG meeting session at IETF96
2016/07/19 1000
A
Are
to
date
are
risky
three
things.
One
is
what
are
the
basics
of
human
whites,
one
as
it
means
unites.
Secondly,
what
is
the
link
between
businesses
and
human
rights
and
therapy,
as
I
mentioned?
I
want
to
speak
about
the
specific
project
that
I
work
on
ranking
digital
rights.
I
just
introduce
myself.
My
name
is
Alan
ba
and
I'm
the
polishing
engaging
manager
of
rank
image
rights,
I'm
also
listing
fellow
here
in
Berlin,
which
lifting
noise
from
Thornton.
A
All
right,
so
the
first
question
I
have
on
here
is:
what
are
human
rights,
so
I
thought,
rather
than
giving
you
a
specific
definition
of
what
is
understood
as
human
rights
in
international
legal
terms,
or
something
like
that
I'd
ask
you
here
in
the
audience,
what
you
think
are
human
rights,
or
maybe
it's
put
it
differently.
What
do
you
believe
are
things
that
every
human
being
around
the
world,
regardless
of
their
nationality,
their
religion,
color
of
their
skin,
etc,
should
be
entitled
to
any
of
you
have
examples
we'd
like
to
give?
Yes,
please.
A
A
A
Things
like
the
right
not
to
be
tortured.
Maybe
it's
we
can
all
agree
on.
That
would
be
great
if
everyone
in
the
world
has
it
right
the
right
to
live
or
the
right
to
have
security,
so
Human
Rights
can
until
all
sorts
of
things
in
the
context
of
in
that,
otherwise
that
we
often
hear
about
another
right
to
freedom
of
expression
or
the
right
to
privacy
or
the
right
to
freedom
of
association.
Even
there
are
many
examples
of
things
that
people
are
thinking
about
when
they
think
okay.
A
What
is
it
that
every
human
being
should
have
in
other
contexts?
Also
speak
about
things?
Are
the
right
to
education,
the
right
to
work,
the
right
to
own
property?
There
are
many
goals
or
many
rights
or
many
basics
that
every
human
being
should
have,
and
there
are
communists
study,
human
rights.
Now
what
what
is
the
genesis
of
human
rights
exactly
as
to
my
sense,
the
term
human
rights
to
become
very
popular,
especially
the
last
few
decades?
A
So
how
has
it
come
about
human
rights,
especially
gained
notion
shortly
after
Second
World
War,
when
with
establishment,
the
United
Nations
and
the
United
Nations
Charter?
Establishing
human
rights
as
something
to
strive
for
there
was
an
understanding
that
they
need
to
be
actions
Damita,
some
sort
of
instrument
to
guard
against
the
horrors
that
people
experiencing
a
second
world
war
specifically
and
also
other
forms
that
happened
there
world,
obviously
in
centuries
and
many
millennia
before
that
in
1948
Universal
Declaration
of
Human
Rights
was
adopted
as
the
first
clear
document
outlining
what
human
rights
should
be.
A
A
A
There
is
crackdown
human
rights
defenders
in
China,
the
United
States,
there's
mass
surveillance
program,
or
the
has
mass
variance
program
going
on
in
Zimbabwe,
the
intimus
being
shut
down
in
Turkey.
Newspapers
are
closed.
So
there
are
many
such
examples
where
we
see
that
human
rights
are
under
threat,
so
you
know
we
said
well,
every
human
being
should
have
these
rights.
In
reality,
we
see
that
across
the
world
are
many
examples
where
human
rights
are
not
protected
and
not
respected.
A
Next
slide,
please
so
just
giving
all
sorts
of
examples
of
states,
rights,
states
violating
human
rights,
and
traditionally
you
are
always
taught
about
the
states
as
the
main
violator,
but
also
is
the
main
protector
for
human
rights.
The
states
will
be
the
ones
responsible
for
making
sure
that
individuals
have
the
rights
respected
at
the
same
time,
businesses
and
Isis.
The
link
that
we've
seen
coming
up
more
and
more
I'm
wondering
if
any
of
you
have
any
ideas
in
mind
of
how
a
business,
how
an
organization
as
such
can
affect
individuals,
human
rights.
D
A
A
Yeah,
so
these
are
all
very
good
examples,
absolutely
other
examples.
We
can
think
of
our
supply
chain
issues,
for
example,
when
a
business
uses
child
labor
or
when
a
company,
hires,
private
or
government
security
guards
to
crack
down
on
demonstration
inside
the
factory.
So
business
can
be
involved
in
human
rights
violations
and
may
different
ways
in
recognition
of
that
next
type
things
there
has
been
someone
called
the
United
Nations
guiding
priesthood
principles
and
business
in
human
rights,
so
I'm
not
presenting
that
with
a
big
rainbow
through
it.
A
As
this
is
the
solution
to
everything
and
all
human
rights
will
be
respected
by
states
and
businesses
alike,
but
I'm
presenting
it,
because
this
is
one
very
concrete
Avenue
by
which
different
actors
in
it
stays
civil
society.
Others
have
come
together,
including
businesses,
to
say
what
should
the
standards
be
when
we
think
about
human
rights
and
how
we
should
respect
them,
and
how
can
we
consider
these
for
the
standards
next
slide,
please.
A
So
the
United
Nations
guiding
principles
consists
of
three
pillars.
The
first
one
is
the
state
duty
to
protect
human
rights,
so
that
is
sort
of
the
clear
standard
that
needs
to
be
set
in
stone.
I
mean
the
state.
Has
the
primary
response
base
they're
the
ones
that
need
to
make
sure
that
inhabitants
in
their
territory
have
their
rights
protected
next
slide,
please.
A
Secondly,
there's
a
corporate
responsibility
to
respect
human
rights,
so
it
can't
all
be
on
the
States
corporations
also
need
to
think
very
clearly
about
what
kind
of
role
they're
playing
how
they
may
affect
Human
Rights,
what
kind
of
decisions
they
should
make
accordingly
and
try
to
find
resolve
to
make
sure
that
human
rights
are
being
mitigated
next
slide.
Please-
and
this
brings
us
to
a
third
pillar
which
is
both-
should
provide
access
to
remedy
meaning
if
an
individual
finds
their
rights
being
violated,
either
by
state
or
by
corporation
or
by
cooperation
in
the
tube.
A
There
should
be
some
sort
of
way
for
them
to
say:
I
need
to
have
a
redress
for
what
has
happened
here.
I
need
you
to
either
go
to
a
court
or
file
a
complaint
within
the
company
or,
if
some
sort
of
instrument,
some
sort
of
mechanism
to
say
I
need
to
have
my
right,
respected
and
I
want
to
address.
What
has
happened
and
I
need
to
seek
a
resolution
to
this.
A
So
we
do
two
things.
First,
as
we
set
standards,
meaning
it's
very
difficult
to
make
an
issue
meaningful
measurement
or
assessment
of
what
technology
companies
are
doing
before
being
able
to
say
this
is
what
the
behavior
should
look
like.
So
that's
the
first
step
so
establishing
what
the
standard
should
be
for
companies
as
they
consider
their
human
rights
practices.
A
Second,
is
we're
measuring
how
companies
are
performing
basically
standards
and,
on
the
basis
of
that
we're
releasing
an
index
with
results
for
the
companies
that
we
assess
next
slide.
Please,
the
court
in
2015
corporate
accountability
and
exit
released
in
November
of
last
year
looked
at
16
companies,
aids,
internet
companies
in
a
telecommunications
companies.
We
system
based
on
31
indicators
in
categories
of
commitment,
which
means
that
the
overall
governance
structure
of
companies
and
how
they
deal
with
human
rights
and
then
the
categories
of
freedom
of
expression
and
privacy.
A
As
we
looked
at
31
indicators
next
slide,
please,
and
could
you
click
further
and
even
further?
So?
Yes,
there
was
a
an
animation
of
sorts
included
here,
as
you
may
see
there.
These
are
the
companies
that
we
assessed
so
basically
globally
operating
companies.
The
companies
that
are
in
red
I
believe
and
are
the
Internet
companies
Communists
are
in
green
I'm
with
colorblindness
that
green
versus
yellow
green
training.
How
can
discover
that?
A
So
there
were
main
results.
I
just
want
to
very
briefly
highlight
here
of
the
index
or
that
most
users
are
in
the
dark
in
terms
of
how
users
rights
being
treated
meaning.
Even
the
top-performing
company
only
scores
65
out
of
100
points
that
they
could
get
in
the
index,
and
many
companies
scored
much
further,
sometimes
even
the
low-teens.
Even
so,
they
only
scored
12%,
let's
say
over
100
percent,
that
they
could
score
on
the
answer
that
we
look
for.
There
still
is
a
range
between
companies
and
for
all
companies.
A
There
is
clear
pathway
to
improve,
so
the
index
that
we
have
released
is
not
meant
sort
of.
As
a
tomato
to
be
thrown
at
companies,
but
as
a
very
helpful
instrument
for
companies
to
make
sure
that
they
can
do
better
on
how
their
respective
users
rights
next
slide,
please
two
very
brief
examples
that
I
want
to
show
you
from
our
results
of
specific
indicators
that
we
looked
at.
A
One
are
on
human
rights
and
back
assessments,
as
I
mentioned
before
in
terms
of
UN
guiding
principles
on
business,
Human
Rights,
one
of
the
things
that
the
guiding
principles
are
asking
for
is
for
corporations
to
very
clearly
think
through
how
they
might
impact
the
rights
of
the
users.
In
order
to
do
that,
they
can
do
human
rights
impact
assessments
or
do
corporate
due
diligence,
meaning
they
should
have
a
very
clear
audit
on
how
the
product
or
services
might
impact
the
users.
A
For
example,
if
the
communications
company
is
entering
a
new
market,
they
might
want
to
consider
they
might
be
involved
with
state
surveillance.
While
they
are
in
that
new
mortgage
right,
will
they
be
forced
my
intentions,
agencies
to
hand
over
user
data
or
they'll
be
forced
to
install
equipment
into
their
server
space
etc,
or
for
the
current
products
and
services
that
they
have
for
an
incident
company,
for
example,
is
there's
also
inherent
mechanism
in
there
that
might
put
users
at
risk.
A
As
you
can
see
in
the
results,
there's
a
wide
range
between
performance
of
companies,
the
top
performing
company
here
scored
almost
90%
in
terms
of
having
such
a
process
and
disclosing
that
have
such
a
process.
Quite
a
few
companies
that
we
have
two
companies
scored
0%
on
this,
so
either
end.
Don't
do
such
a
thing
or
the
they're
being
concessionary
silent
about
it.
Next
slide,
please
another
indicator
to
highlight
is
on
grievance
remedy,
as
I
mentioned
before
that
third
pillar
of
the
unifying
principles
looks
at
this
specifically
asking
for
having
access
to
remedy.
A
Most
companies
are
from
very
poorly
on
this.
The
top
performing
company
scored
only
50%
most
companies
score
somewhere
around
20%
or
even
lower,
which
means
that
they
may
have
a
form
on
the
website
or
an
email
address
on
the
website.
It
says
if
you
have
a
question
about
the
privacy
policies
and
the
email
to
this
address,
but
no
clear
procedure.
No
care
complain
mechanism,
no
explanation
what
they
do
in
such
circumstances
as
a
receive
complaint
or
what
you
do
to
find.
The
resolution
next
slide
please.
A
So
these
were
just
some
examples
that
I
wanted
to
highlight
from
the
rank
religious
rights
index,
but
more
broadly,
that
I
want
to
tie
in
to
the
broader
framework
of
human
rights
and
human
rights,
and
business
and
house
thing
can
be
concretely
implemented
in
form
from
assessment
framework
of
corporations.
I
believe
that
we'll
do
Q&A
later
soon
right,
listen,
yeah,.
E
E
This
year
is
the
fifth
year
anniversary
of
the
UN
guiding
principles
we
just
celebrated.
In
June,
the
50-year
anniversary
was
John
Ruggie
and
I
got
to
ask
John
John
what
surprised
you
most
five
years,
hence
from
the
unimagine
animus
approval
endorsement
of
the
guiding
principles
by
the
UN
Human
Rights
Council.
What
did
you
expect
and
what
surprised
you
most
so
john
said.
E
Well,
you
know
there
are
a
lot
of
things
that
I
didn't
expect,
but
one
thing
that
really
took
me
by
surprise
is
that
organizations
beyond
the
major
multinationals
that
extractive
industries
apparel
industries,
the
ones
that
you
usually
think
about
in
the
business
and
human
rights
context.
Actually
the
UN
guiding
principles
seeped
and
went
well
beyond
them.
E
He
said
I
never
would
have
imagined
organizations
like
FIFA
would
get
their
FIFA
by
the
way
is
a
Swiss
nonprofit
so
technically
outside
the
purview
of
the
UN
guiding
principles,
perhaps
because
the
guiding
principles
apply
to
business
enterprises.
But,
on
the
other
hand,
FIFA
is
run
like
a
business,
and
you
could
say
that
their
operations
are
business.
In
addition
to
FIFA,
I
can
also
tell
you
the
International
Bar
Association,
the
American
Bar
Association
different
National
Bar
Association's
regional
organizations,
they're
all
grappling
with
this
challenge:
accountants,
stock
exchanges,
trade
associations.
E
So
this
conversation
is
spilling
into
all
arenas
outside
of
the
most
immediate
stakeholder
groups
that
the
business
and
human
rights
movement
was
meant
to
address,
and
even
ICANN
is
having
that
conversation
as
I
will
come
to
momentarily.
So
next
slide,
please.
So.
The
point
of
this
is
that
there
are
many
organizations
that
face
business
and
human
rights
or
straightforward
human
rights
challenges
and
dilemmas,
and
that
they
have
many
different
ways
to
deal
with
that
particular
challenge.
E
So
I
just
want
to
give
you
a
sense
of
how
that
process
works
and
how
my
organization
is
is
helping
facilitate
that
conversation
and
helping
the
decision
making
processes
of
different
organizations
taking
into
account
a
lot
of
the
issues
are
new,
never
thought
of
the
ICT
sector
having
all
sorts
of
human
rights
issues.
But
now
you
just
heard
from
Elan:
there
are
all
these
issues
that
are
coming
up
that
are
being
expressed
in
human
rights
terms.
E
Next
slide,
please
so
one
of
the
first
things
that
we
did
after
the
UN
guiding
principles
was
to
work
on
certain
sectors
that
perhaps
needed
more
detailed
guidance
on
how
to
apply
the
UN
guiding
principles,
and
we
were
requested
by
the
European
Commission
to
come
up
with
three
sector
guides.
So
we
did
one
on
oil
and
gas,
one
on
employment
agencies
and
the
third
one
for
the
ICT
sector.
E
This
is
a
joint
project
that
we
did
with
another
organization
called
shift,
and
basically
this
was
the
sort
of
ung
piece
one
on
one
for
the
ICT
sector
and
basically
the
nutshell
of
it
is
look.
There
are
common
due
diligence,
steps
that
you
could
take
to
understand
the
human
rights
impacts
of
your
organisation's
and
to
address
them.
E
So
what
are
the
six
steps
to
have
a
human
rights
policy
to
assess
the
human
rights
impacts
of
that
particular
organization
if
there
are
negative
impacts,
first
to
prevent
and
second
to
mitigate
those
impacts,
to
monitor
and
track
your
performance
over
time
to
communicate
to
your
stakeholders
what
you
are
doing
and
to
remedy
to
extent?
There
are
negative
impacts
to
address
those
negative
impacts
through
a
grievance
mechanisms.
E
So
those
are
the
key
steps
and
those
are
the
backbone
of
a
human
rights
impact
assessment,
which
is
a
method
of
inquiry
and
analysis
that
we
usually
ask
companies
to
take
on
board
to
address
the
challenges
so
moving
on
now.
The
next
example
is
to
take
this
process
to
a
much
more
specific
situation
with
tech
UK.
E
This
is
the
work
that
we
did
following
the
Arab
Spring
discoveries
that
a
bunch
of
countries
were
using
cybersecurity
products
and
services
to
actually
basically
conduct
a
mass
surveillance,
with
dire
consequences
for
human
rights,
advocacy
groups
and
and
writers
and
bloggers
who
got
arrested
and
detained.
So
the
UK
government
said
look.
This
is
an
industry
that
is
very
important
to
us,
because
it's
a
major
source
of
jobs
and
revenue.
E
So
what
are
the
human
rights
risks
that
this
particular
guide
tried
to
address?
They
are
privacy
right
to
privacy
right
to
freedom
of
assembly,
Association
freedom
of
expression
also
right
to
life
right
against
arbitrary
arrest
and
detention
right
against
torture,
some
of
the
very
hard
stuff,
typical
human
rights
that
we
have
identified
next
slide.
So
I'm
not
gonna,
go
into
this
in
great
detail:
I'm,
not
I,
know
you
cannot
see
this,
but
I
suggest
you
flip
through
the
guide.
E
And
actually,
this
complaint
went
to
the
OECD
grievance
mechanism
and
the
UK
contact
point.
National
contact
point
came
up
with
its
decision
last
year,
basically
condemning
agama
internationals
practice.
So
actually
there
is
a
concrete
case
in
which
these
scenarios
are
examined
next
slide,
please
so
Human
Rights
impact
assessment
is
one
very
specific
way
to
understand
human
rights
impacts
of
a
company's
operation.
A
case
study
is
another
way
of
just
understanding
what
has
happened,
what
are
companies
doing
when
they're,
faced
with
dilemmas
and
under
the
banner
of
digital
dangers?
E
My
organization
has
several
case
studies,
one
of
which
is
to
look
at
Erikson's
our
practice
as
telecoms
vendor
and
to
understand
their
due
diligence
process
to
figure
out
what
countries
and
what
kinds
of
conditions
if
any
to
impose
on
the
sale
of
their
products.
Again
I
won't
go
into
a
great
level
of
detail
at
all,
but
right
there.
There
are
five
copies
of
this
particular
case
study
if
you're
interested
in
flipping
through.
E
So
if
some
of
these
peas
are
triggered,
perhaps
the
conversation
about
the
particular
deal
should
be
elevated
at
the
management
level
and
if
all
the
4ps
are
triggered-
and
there
are
no
mitigation
measures,
then
perhaps
the
financial
institutions
should
consider
not
going
forward
with
that
particular
transaction.
So
this
is
just
a
way
to
illustrate
that
the
key
theme
being
network
vendors,
but
how
a
different
human
rights
rights
risks
could
be
incorporated
into
various
organizations.
Decision-Making
next
slide.
E
So
this
is
the
way
I
understand.
The
current
engagement
engagement
with
ICANN
I
think
that
there
are
two
streams
of
inquiry
going
on
in
connection
with
ICANN's
relationship
with
human
right,
and
one
is
a
sort
of
very
legalistic,
normative
top-down
approach.
Another
one
more
impact,
specific
and
ground-up
approach
both
triggered
in
connection
with
I,
can
Xion
a
transition
and
the
efforts
to
basically
strengthen
ICANN's
accountability,
visa
be
its
stakeholder
groups
and
I.
Just
think.
Both
of
these
are
absolutely
fascinating.
E
So
at
the
normative
level,
you
might
be
aware
that
there
was
a
decision
to
amend
icons
bylaws,
including
a
decision
to
include
a
human
rights
statement
and
that
reads:
ICANN
will
commit
to
respect
internationally
recognized
human
rights,
as
required
by
applicable
law,
sounds
like
something
that
got
drafted
by
a
bunch
of
lawyers,
and
it
is
so
now.
The
challenge
is
to
figure
out
what
does
it
mean
then
to
ikons
operations?
So
there
is
a
process
of
trying
to
understand
what
how
the
bylaws
should
be
interpreted.
E
So
the
idea
is
to
come
up
with
a
frame
of
interpretation
of
that
particular
bylaws
bunch
of
people
trying
to
define
what
that
means
and
I'll
show
you
the
next
diagram
Graham
in
terms
of
what
specific
human
rights
that
are
being
addressed.
But
one
of
the
conversations
were
having
there
is,
do
the
UN
guiding
principles
actually
apply
to
I
can
given
that
I
can
is
a
California
nonprofit
and
so
does?
Is
that
really
relevant?
E
Well,
yes,
on
the
one
hand,
because
I
can
is
set
up
like
a
business
and
it
does
actually
have
a
huge
influence
on
business,
particularly
cyber
commerce.
On
the
other
hand,
I
can
is
technically
not
a
business
itself,
and
so
how
do
we
square
the
circle
or
having
a
lot
of
conversations
around
that
and
now
I'm
moving
to
the
bottom?
E
So
again,
we
are
also
trying
to
understand
icons,
operations
and
its
human
rights
impacts
from
a
very
impact
specific
point
of
view,
and
so
the
instrument
that
we're
using
there
is
a
human
rights
impact
assessment
process
to
understand
both
kans
impacts
as
a
owner
of
property,
physical
property
and
employer
of
people.
So
there
is
a
specific
human
rights
footprint
as
we
call
it.
E
Physical
human
rights
that
are
violations,
potentially
that
we
might
identify,
but
the
bulk
of
the
interesting
human
rights
are
impacts
will
come
from
icons
of
application
of
its
policies,
and
so
those
are
the
various
domains
of
conversations
that
are
occurring
within
an
can
and
the
next
slide
geez,
so
I'm,
sorry
again,
you're
not
gonna,
be
able
to
start
to
read
this.
But
if
you
go
to
the
icon
website,
you'll
see
this
particular
visible,
visualization
of
Rights
and
I.
E
E
Also,
here
I
can
identified
economic,
social
and
cultural
rights
as
being
relevant,
as
well
as
a
bunch
of
human
rights
principles,
so
these
are
rule
of
law.
This
is
about
participation
and
consultation,
inclusiveness
and
non-discrimination
and
in
the
middle.
Those
are
the
various
attributes
that
that
you
could
associate
with
with
these
rights
and
towards
the
right
hand,
side
are
the
various
on
ICANN
policies
that
could
trigger
these
human
rights.
E
If
you
could
skip
this
one
and
go
to
the
next
one,
so,
first
and
foremost,
this
is
an
issue
that
a
lot
of
companies
are
grappling
with
because
being
able
to
hire
talented
employees
and
being
able
to
retain
them.
B
also
means
being
very
conscious
of
how
they
treat
LGBTI
employees
and,
as
a
result,
there's
a
lot
of
interest
expressed
from
the
business
community
and
as
a
result,
in
collaboration
with
the
UN
Human
Rights
office.
E
We
are
in
a
process
of
doing
a
global
consultation
on
a
set
of
principles
that
businesses
can
use
to
put
in
place
a
policy
and
set
of
procedures
addressing
LGBTI
issues
in
their
operations.
Again,
I
won't
go
into
the
details,
but
if
you
look
at
the
bottom,
there
are
three
contact
names.
The
last
one
salutary
party
is
our
contact
point
working
on
this
particular
project.
If
you
have
a
lot
of
questions
about
that,
please
do
feel
free
to
to
reach
out
to
him
or
to
me
the
next
slide.
E
Please
and
I
just
wanted
to
highlight
one
thing
coming
out
of
a
discussion
paper,
that's
circulating
which
I
cannot
unfortunately
circulate
because
it's
not
in
the
public
domain
because
of
the
sensitivity
issues
associated
with
it,
particularly
because
there
are
73
jurisdictions
in
the
world
that
makes
being
LGBTI
person
illegal
in
various
ways.
But
ELISA
has
the
discussion
paper
and
also,
if
you're
interested
in
I'm
happy
to
distribute
it
to
you
on
a
personal
basis.
E
But
this
is
just
a
frame
that
a
company
could
use
to
understand
when
it's
making
its
decision
on
where
to
go
for
their
operations.
How
to
think
about
their
operations?
So
there
are
three
models,
the
first
one
being
when
in
Rome
behave
like
the
Romans.
So
this
means
you
know
if
you
have
an
office
and
country
X
that
might
be
hostile
to
LGBTI
staff.
People
then
basically
adapt
to
local
conditions,
but
and
give
your
workers
a
way
to
opt
out
from
being
posted
to
that
particular
country.
E
So
this
is
one
decision-making
framework
that
we're
thinking
about
pushing
through
the
eventual
principles
and
the
last
slide.
Please
and
just
a
comment
finally,
on
your
meeting
venue
decision-making
process,
I
thought
it
might
be
useful
to
just
show
you
how
human
rights
organizations
and
others
sort
of
organizations
that
deal
with
somatic
Human
Rights,
how
they
make
their
decisions
in
terms
of
selection
of
venue
from
a
human
rights
perspective.
E
And
so
here
are
the
sort
of
some
random
considerations
that
you
might
want
to
think
about,
and
these
organizations
have
all
the
same
dilemmas
that
you
do
yeah.
So
they
think
about
whether
going
to
a
particular
country
and
having
an
annual
meeting,
whether
that
all
of
a
sudden
legitimatize
what
that
country
is
doing
in
terms
of
Human
Rights
or
whether
that
expresses
solidarity
with
the
stakeholders
who
are
active
in
that
particular
country.
E
So
it's
a
balancing
act,
there's
no
black
or
white
way
of
making
this
decision,
but,
first
of
all
to
generally
understand
the
background
of
the
country.
It's
human
rights
track
record.
You
can
do
this
through
looking
at
different
kinds
of
databases,
the
State
Department,
Freedom,
House,
etc,
etc,
but
maybe,
more
importantly,
to
understand
a
visible
pattern
of
human
rights
abuse
in
that
particular
country.
Visa
vie
are
or
series
of
Rights
that
are
most
relevant
to
the
organization's
mission
and
values
right.
So
I
read
that
inclusiveness
is
a
very
important
value
for
this
organization.
E
Well,
if
that's
so,
how
does
it
mean
in
terms
of
your
decision-making
process?
Maybe
that's
something
that
you
want
to
think
about.
Also
the
views
of
the
local
peers
and
NGOs
would
going
there
make
it
worse
for
them
or
actually
better
for
them,
so
understanding
what
they
are
saying
from
the
ground
up.
I
think
it's
very
important
another
way
to
think
about.
It
is
what
kinds
of
Association
would
you
have
with
the
government,
so
what
the
government
somehow
subsidized
that
meeting,
would
it
give
a
free
use
of
facilities?
E
Would
it
provide
some
Hospitality's
travel
subsidies
and
so
on
and
so
forth?
Would
they
come
and
address
the
meeting?
These
are
all
considerations
that
you
might
want
to
think
about,
and,
finally,
and
but
last
but
not
least,
the
specific
safety
threats
or
restrictions
to
some
or
all
members,
and
also
the
stakeholders.
This
to
me
is
a
very
important
human
rights
concept.
E
So
with
that
I'm
going
to
finish
I
I
know,
I
threw
a
lot
of
different
things
at
you,
but
I
hope
it
was
helpful
to
just
give
you
a
glimpse
of
the
fact
that
other
organizations
of
all
sorts
of
different
kinds
grapple
with
these
issues,
not
always
necessarily
with
straightforward
answers.
Thank
you
so
much
thank.
B
F
B
G
It
has
participants
and
the
participants
have
various
levels
of
participation
which
may
include
coming
to
physical
meetings
or
may
not,
and
one
of
our
questions
as
we
go
through
this.
Should
we
go
to
a
venue
or
not
has
commonly
been
around?
What
does
it
do
to
enable
or
restrict
participation,
but
because
we
do
not
have
a
defined
membership?
G
It's
been
very
difficult
for
us
to
assess
this
question
and
many
of
the
people
who've
discussed
this
issue
both
in
in
this
terms
and
in
kind
of
broader
terms
of
freedom
of
association
or
freedom
of
participation.
More
more
exactly
I've
talked
about
the
economic
costs
of
participation
in
various
venues
and
I
was
wondering
if
you
could
kind
of
explore
with
us,
given
that
we
have
no
defined
membership,
how
we
would
conduct
such
an
assessment.
E
So
I,
first
of
all,
so
I
stand
corrected
that
you
don't
have
members,
but
there
is
probably
a
way
to
poll
people
who
frequently
come
to
your
meetings
and
so
I
think
there
are
various
mechanisms
that
you
could
use
to
assess
what
your
participants
or
would-be
participants
are
saying
as
well
as
so
I
guess.
What
I'm
saying
is
I
would
promote
a
very
consultative
approach
to
this,
which
is
the
nature
of
your
organization.
In
any
event,.
H
Hi
I'm
Lucy
regional
I'm,
a
recovering
politician
but
I,
currently
serve
on
that
I
came
board.
I've
had
to
deal
with
situations
like
this,
so
I
just
wanted
to
give
you
a
couple
of
examples
of
how
I
did
that
in
my
previous
board
role
as
far
as
president
of
the
European
Liberal
Democrats
now,
the
first
thing
is
that
we
clearly
chose
to
be
an
advocate
to
have
the
advocacy
approach,
because
you're,
politicians
and
I
think
our
job
is
changing
the
world.
H
So
what
I
would
do
is
if
I,
for
example,
went
to
Armenia
I
would
contact
the
local
LGBT
organizations.
There
were
two
usually
competing
ones
and
ask.
Is
it
useful
if
we
do
something
with
you
and
one
of
them
said?
Yes,
please,
can
you
invite
us
to
your
session
so
that
we
can
say
something
about
the
situation
just
to
make
a
statement
and
the
other
one
said
actually?
H
Could
you
come
visit,
our
local
gay
bar,
because
that
would
make
a
huge
impact,
because
we
were
recently
firebombed
and
the
fact
that
politicians
actually
enter
the
gay
bar
means?
We
won't
be
firebombed
and
we
might
actually
get
some
police
protection.
So
so
there
were
different
approaches
and
we
honored
them.
Both.
H
We
had
a
meeting
last
year
in
Budapest,
because
we
were
deeply
concerned
about
the
human
rights
situation
there
who
chose
explicitly
to
go
there
precisely
because
there
was
a
problem
and
we
were
able
to
give
a
platform
to
to
opposition
people,
but
at
the
same
time
we
also
invited
government
people
so
that
you
know
expose
me
never
black
and
white.
Not
not
everyone
in
the
government
is
evil
and
not
everyone
in
the
opposition
or
on
our
human
rights
arena
is
a
saint.
H
So
it's
I
think
you
know
to
try
to
listen
to
all
sides
and
to
have
views
and
to
make
statements
is
really
important
as
well
and
I
was
thinking,
I
mean
obviously
I'm.
It's
my
first
ITF,
sorry
and
I
know,
but
I
was
thinking
one
of
the
simple
things
that
if
you
do
guys,
if
ITF
decides
to
go
to
Singapore,
you
have
a
cool
t-shirt
with
a
rainbow
flag
on
it
to
show.
If
you
stand
for
diversity,
I
mean
there's,
there's
really
small
things
you
could
already
do
to
to
show
where
you
stand.
H
C
C
Is
what
do
you
do
when
you
have
rights
in
conflict?
So
there
I
personally
believe
that
there
is
a
human
right
to
you
know
whatever
kind
of
sexuality
and
gender.
You
want,
and
I
personally
believe
that
there
is
a
human
right
to
absolute
freedom
of
religion,
which
essentially
implies
the
right
to
be
what
I
would
call
an
antediluvian
bigot,
a
racist,
bigoted.
C
A
That's
that's
a
very
good
question,
that's
a
very
difficult
question
and
this
often
comes
up
elite
in
terms
of
having
multiple
rights
out
there.
And
how
do
you
balance
different
rights?
How
do
you
deal
with
different
vices
may
conflict
with
each
other,
and
I
can't
give
a
cookie
cutter
answer
to
that.
A
E
And
just
to
elaborate
further,
there
are
rules
within
the
human
rights
doctrine.
That
would
say
certain
rights
can
be
restricted
by
governments
under
certain
circumstances
and
subject
to
law
right,
and
there
are
certain
things
that
are
absolutely
sacrosanct.
So
the
right
to
privacy
could
be
moderated
by
a
government
depending
on
particular
circumstances,
subject
to
law,
vs.
right
to
be
free
from
torture,
arbitrary
detention
etc.
Those
are
absolute,
and
so
there
are
these
rules,
but
I
think
in
terms
of
the
actual
day-to-day
decision
making
process.
I
Takes
a
lot
of
recovery
actually
so
I.
Thank
you
for
the
presentation.
I
really
like
them.
I
did
have
a
question.
When
you
had
this
in
different
modes
of
going
to
a
particular
place,
you
know
compromise
or
in
the
investi
mode,
I
mean
I
I
wanted
to
ask,
but
a
messy
mode
and
the
you
know
safe
space.
And
could
you
keep
some
examples
that
you're
thinking
more
in
terms
of
like
positive
action
that
even
though
laws
in
this
place
don't
require
us
to?
You
know,
treat
everybody
equally.
I
We
in
this
company
or
organization
do,
or
are
you
thinking
more
in
terms
of
you
know,
protecting
the
population
of
your
organization
from
outside
influence?
There
might
be
some
things
that
are
illegal,
for
instance,
in
in
a
country.
So
if
you
could
give
us
some
examples,
that
would
help
me
understand
better
what
kinds
of
things
we
could
do
sure.
E
So,
for
example,
providing
benefits
to
LGBTI
polls
that
are
not
legally
required,
for
example,
convening
a
space
within
a
particular
office
for
LGBTI
employees
to
come
together
and
talk
about
these
issues
freely.
These
are
some
very
concrete
examples
of
what
companies
can
do
within
its
own
four
walls.
So
that's
what
it's
talking
about
within
that
embassy
compound.
There
are
certain
things
that
they
can
do
despite
the
local
law
and
that's
a
very
different
thing
from
just
adapting
to
local
law
and
say:
that's
all
we
do.
We
don't
provide
anything
over
and
above
that's
the
difference.
J
Suspect
this
discussion
needs
to
make
a
pretty
strong
distinction
between
how
the
IETF
conducts
its
business
versus
what
sorts
of
political
or
social
I'll
call
it
advocacy
or
actions
it
might
take
primarily
through
showing
up
somewhere
internally.
We
have
a
pretty
simple
model:
the
execution
of
it
isn't
so
simple,
but
the
model
is
were
opened.
Everybody
show
up
participate
in
the
discussion
or
beginning
of
discussion.
J
The
practice
of
that
has
all
sorts
of
difficulties.
We
have
a
history
of
coming
out
of
a
white
male
engineering,
American
culture
and
reflect
that
in
many
ways.
That's
been
a
subject
of
discussion
in
recent
years,
but
the
the
formal
model
we
have
is
really
quite
straightforward.
The
challenge
we've
run
into
is
one
of
choosing
where
to
show
up
and
pretty
much
everywhere
in
the
world.
Has
some
controversy
associated
with
it.
So
we
get
to
choose
sometimes
unwittingly
particular
issues
in
particular
places.
J
C
H
C
It's
a
different
thing
to
go
to
a
country
where
it
is
early
not
to
discriminate
against
people,
so
that
there's
an
important
difference
there.
If
what
we
do
in
at
work
is
viewed
as
promoting
non-traditional
family
values,
they
need
to
legal
and
breaking.
The
law
is
generally
regarded
as
one
of
the
things
that
companies
shouldn't
do,
and
that
makes
it
a
much
more
difficult
place
to
go.
If
there
is
a
place
where
the
laws
are.
C
In
theory
medieval,
but
the
implementation
is
actually
one
that
doesn't
cause
problems
and
one
that
allows
us
to
behave
in
a
manner
we
believe
is
acceptable.
Then
that's
a
different,
a
different
level
of
question
and
a
different
level
of
controversy
because,
as
is
the
last
piece,
I
leave
and
come
from
and
visit
and
work
in
places,
all
of
which
commit
horrendous
human
rights
violations
and,
and
unfortunately
that
applies
to
most
of
the
planet.
So
it's
pretty
hard
to
avoid
Thanks.
B
K
We
can
perhaps
look
at
the
participants
that
are
here,
but
we
cannot
really
question
the
participants
that
are
not
here
that
we
might
want
to
have
here,
so
that
also
makes
it
a
bit
harder
and
then
finally,
it's
a
question
about
attribution.
So
you
talked
about
gamma
and
cybersecurity,
but
the
IETF
produces
open
voluntary
standards,
so
the
IETF
is
not
the
protocol
police.
So
how
does
that
relate,
and
how
can
their
responsibilities
be
taken
up
there
I
would
be
very
interested
PSM.
E
Think,
most
of
what
you
said
are
statements
so
just
very
quickly.
I,
don't
think
that
your
meeting
venue
decision-making
is
a
total
chaotic,
spontaneous
process.
You
have
some
criteria
and
I
think
that
what
you're
doing
is
to
codify
those
criteria.
So
the
question
is
what
else
or
what
differently,
how
differently?
You
would
like
to
do
that
in
a
conscious
way,
as
opposed
to
subconscious
way
and
I
see
that
happening,
and
so
this
is
just
an
input
into
your
process.
There's
no
a
simple
answer,
so
you
are
not
an
LGBTI
advocacy
organization
right.
E
You
have
an
inclusiveness,
a
value
as
your
part
of
the
expression
of
who
you
are
but
you're,
not
on
LGBTI
organization.
You
could
say
that,
okay,
this
is
something
that's
nice
to
have,
but
it's
not
central
to
our
decision-making
process,
but
as
an
organization,
we
will
look
at
some
other
criteria
for
a
meeting
decision
and
I.
Think
that's
perfectly
fine,
but
you
still
need
to
address
your
members.
Your
participants
concerns
about.
Well.
E
How
are
we
going
to
deal
with
that
and
so
I
think
that
again,
there's
no
necessarily
a
black
or
white
way
forward
on
this?
This
is
a
lot
to
do
with
socializing
this
particular
topic
inside
your
organization.
Finally,
Neos
I'm
not
going
to
answer
all
of
your
questions,
but
just
to
to
say
how
to
avoid
cherry-picking.
How
do
we?
How
do
you
know
you
have
the
comprehensive
set
of
rights
that
you
need
to
address?
You
could
go
about
it
that
way.
E
Now
you
could
have
a
very
thorough
analysis
of
the
legal
instruments
and
a
very
thorough
analysis
of
your
impacts
and
marry
the
two
and
come
up
with
a
strategy.
That's
that's
one
thing.
One
way
of
doing
this,
you
could
say
we're
gonna
pick
on
this
particular
right,
because
everybody
agrees
that
this
is
something
that
we,
you
need
to
focus
on,
say
right
to
privacy
and
was
just
going
to
to
really
really
really
get
down
to
the
basics
and
to
figure
out
what
that
means
to
our
organization
right.
E
A
Just
to
add
to
that
I
think
focus
points
were
all
very
good
and
great
here
to
just
answer
your
question
terms
of
how
to
get
understanding
of
how
human
rights
issues
take
a
different
role
in
different
places.
I
would
say
there
are
different
assessments
on
going
by
different
organizations
such
as
Human
Rights
Watch,
such
as
Freedom
House,
that
we
look
at
in
different
situations
in
different
countries
to
give
the
proper
situation
sketch
of
the
current
concerns
on
human
rights.
A
What
kind
of
factors
are
at
play
for
you
that
would
enable
or
hinder
your
participation
in
in-person
meetings
and
I
think
those
pieces
information
can
be
very
valuable
and
map
who
desire
to
visit
veto
concerns
and
human
rights
that
we've
seen
and
it
will
be
about
different
countries.
I
think
can
be
very
helpful.
Thank
you.