Jenkins Platform SIG, 24 Oct 2019

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From YouTube: Platform SIG 2019 10 24

Description

Jenkins platform special interest group meeting Oct 24, 2019. Topics include AdoptOpenJDK as a possible replacement for OpenJDK in the Jenkins Docker images, benefits from multiarch Docker builds, AdoptOpenJDK J9 as a possible added alternative Docker image, and plugin installation manager release preparation.

Also discussed the latest results from Hacktoberfest (50+ first time contributors, 200+ pull requests).

A

A

Welcome everyone: this is the.

A

You this is the platform speciality for Jenkins, thanks for being here and here's our agenda for today, Alex thanks for joining us. So we've got open action items that we'll review. First, then, we've got several topics around adopt open JDK one is possibly considering it as the as a replacement base JDK for the Jenkins image instead of relying on open JDK. The other is: we've got a proposal right now in the community to add a j9 based image in addition to the hotspot based image.

A

So we'll talk about that Alex that may frame or help us have further discussion in dr. Molter at multi arch. So we'll hear some further from you on that. If you've got additional to discuss, then we'll give a status report on the windows installer and the code signing thing that are bumping.

A

It's bumping into Oktoberfests, discussion and I think we will delay the configuration is code change, oleg is traveling and on vacation this week, so we'll likely delay that until another meeting anything else that needs to be added to the agenda, Alex good, all right, okay! So first, then, let's review the open action items. I've still got the action item long-standing to open the jet for the docker operating system, support platform, selection rules that won't happen, probably for a month or more, because I've got other things that I need to focus on like hecto Bertha's.

A

Likewise, Oleg's got one for the windows, support policy by the Jenkins project and then Alex you've got the topic on Windows installer code signing and you you want to give a brief status on that. What you've learned is, as you've watched, that ticket flow sure.

B

So basically, the update is they're, going, create some type of LLC limited liability corporation to be an entity so they'd be able to purchase the code signing certificate, we're just waiting on that the legal stuff to go through in then they can leave some code thanks for the Jenkins project, right.

A

Okay, so limited liability corporation in the US will allow them to have a legal entity which isn't tied to a single person right. That's that's good, excellent! That's very good! Okay and the core release automation project I know that Olivier continues working on that right now that I believe the biggest sticking point still is the code signing. So there's been additional pressure putting on that to get that LLC created I'm, hoping to hear more within the next two or three weeks. Great.

A

Thank you, okay. So then the next is that adopt openjdk is an alternate jdk implementation, which includes jdk, x', built and tested for various interesting platforms and they're tested with the Java compatibility kit, they're verified and delivered, and they they work quite well. I've been using them for many months as an alternative to open JDK, and that that alternative is now looking more interesting, because it's a natural place to get platform support.

A

For example, they already provide an officially source version. They support that runs on IBM's mainframes and they provide a version that runs on arm, for instance, so on the Raspberry Pi style processors.

A

They they run in enough interesting places, plus, of course, they support Windows and Linux and Mac OS.

A

So right now what Jim has has started is a proposal to discuss what it would take to transition the docker image that we officially deliver from using open JDK to using adopt open JDK, and that would mean that it has to support right now we deliver Debian image. We deliver a Debian slim image. We deliver a CentOS image Alex. If I remember correctly, we do not yet deliver a Windows image in docker. Is that.

B

Yeah not for the master, we are providing images for ages forum or the SSH agent jnlp agent and then just basic agent image.

B

But I did some work to do a master image on Windows and people. Weren't really interested I didn't look at the if there's any reason to bring one up at all.

B

One thing that none of the organizations have is nano server windows, nano server images, so that's something: I was going to work with Jim Crowley to see if we could work with the adopt open, JDK team to create nano server images and.

A

Now could you come in help me out what is nano server? That's a Windows product give me a little bit of overview on that yeah.

B

So if you do a normal, like Windows server core upper image, it's like 2.5 gigabytes, which is pretty large. Nano server, is around 500 megabytes. So it's into a smaller image that provides the basic support, for things mainly will be used for agents not for a master I.

A

See? Okay, so this would give me the benefits of running on Windows kernel, running running with Windows file system Windows kernel, but without the large image size. Okay, you kind of like a plan right right. Yes, all right so, like slim, for Windows, interesting, okay. So but you say that, but you say not even adopt open. Jdk has a nano server image. That's.

B

Correct and there's actually a bug since, at least in the jk8 sense version two to two that caused problems with nano star images, because it doesn't have all of the dll's and stuff, but like the Windows server core has smaller. Obviously uh-huh there were a couple bugs wasn't been resolved, so we should be able to do nano server images. Now, oh okay,.

A

All right, so the bugs that were reported have been resolved for nano server should be possible that doesn't exist.

B

Yet, yes and Jim said he had a contact adopt open JDK, then we can work with the try against a nano server, but just created this up all right.

A

A

That's great, thank you very much.

A

That's very encouraging. Now one of my concerns was with all the master images we have. I am quite dependent and I assume others had the same bad behavior. If you will that the master images are very important and their exact content is quite important, so, for instance, I depend on certain pack on packages that are in in Debian in the image we can't change, that I, suspect or we'll get lots of grumbling.

A

Now the other one was and I think Jim's proposal looks okay, for that the other one was Alpine support if I remember, right is, is still problematic afford for, for the JDK is because, for instance, Alpine for Jade, open, JDK, 11 isn't isn't supported at all.

A

Have you heard anything on that topic? Further Alex did.

B

Not and I don't know: Jim looked at GDK 11 when he is looking at their unofficial, Alpine images I'm, not sure about that. Okay, so on official.

A

Images available for open, JDK I know for a dog token jdk, because I thought I saw that that the job the the jdk project refused to do outline because of the c library on which alpine is based. I.

B

Think, like a crab noise that they actually just instability, o single that remember for sure, okay.

A

All right, great natasha, thanks for joining alright, so anything else on on o. Also that I think covers the topics. I know about adopt open, JDK Alex unless there's something else that you wanted to be sure we capture in the notes. Oh, maybe we should capture next step, so next steps, I think, are evaluate the pull requests.

A

B

I think it's important. You mentioned that not knowing or making sure that the packages that people are lying are still there. We wanted to look at feedback between the bed. Group I'm gonna see what packages people are allowed on, so we can make sure that any visions we make are not going to break people. Yes,.

A

You there I was assuming that we would rather even then soliciting feedback that what we do is we make our goal, but that we don't lose any packages in the transition.

A

Okay, know that that's a good idea, I was thinking. Whoops excuse, my bad at it. I was thinking that confirmed the package contents. Only change, jaded 88, the JDK, not any of the any other package definition or package inclusions and but I think you've got a good point. Ask the death route Bev list if there are specific package requirements which can't be retained right if we find hey, the failure to include OpenJDK means that we lose these things. These packages that were implicitly installed that now don't get installed by adopt openjdk.

A

Do we need to explicitly install them.

A

So I guess what that really needs is needs. An integration test, often content.

B

Personnel to verify that the size of the image is a horribly different.

A

Oh, oh good point right confirm image size.

A

It is not dramatically larger right if we, if we've suddenly bloated it with far more packages that increases its potential to attack surface dry, good, ok,.

B

Lila consummated great all right.

A

Okay, discovery.

A

B

Are we discussing the open.

A

To nine, yet as a separate I think we should do it as a separate and I'm ready to start that now, you're ready for that discussion.

B

A

Well so, first, let's give an overview for those those who, maybe not not entirely aware so open j9, is a different garbage collector. If you look at my garbage collection is the wrong way to say it. It's a different virtual machine implementation right, so it's a competitor to hot spot, hot spot, the de facto virtual machine image and what it has as a benefit is that it and it is designed for small environments, fast startup environments and low memory environments.

A

So, for example, that makes it particularly interesting for places where we may have less memory than been typical. My raspberry pies, a pine board or those kind of things where a constrained environment, the fast startup time is particularly interesting for use when testing and and/or. If we're running things like the Jenkins file Runner or where it starts, a Jenkins instance perform some action and then stops cutting the startup time is is very interesting there because it cuts the cost there.

B

Were things that drink an excellent, be interested in that's our star defense as well right right exactly so,.

A

We're we're reducing the cost of start-up is a hell matter. A bunch so open j9 is interesting for that. However, it is because it's a different virtual machine. There can be bumps and bruises on things places where we were unwittingly dependent on the hotspot virtual machine and need need some code changes. However, open j9 initial testing looked quite promising.

A

It has one other feature which allows it to do. Oh dear, there's a there's a word for it in the compiler world, where what you do is you do pre load of cash pre loading? How to point? Well? Yes, yes, exactly it's a head of clean up the cache of Java objects before before starting the virtual machine at virtual machine startup, and what that that the idea then would be we could compile and do it start Jenkins in the docker image, build process.

A

And stop it stop Jenkins and include the resulting files in the image to reduce startup time even further.

A

It's, but that's not if I understand correctly, not a currently supported technique by the by the build process that we have I.

B

Think there was a an issue filed by another I. Don't remember the gentleman's name. He was gonna, look at kind of some of the stuff that he had to do to get it working and then he was gonna. Do a PR for it. Oh good. Okay, all right.

A

Yeah, so for me that that one because it's it makes open j9 interesting I assumed it would be more interesting for agents, for example than for then then as much for the master, because sometimes we've got ephemeral agents where it's crucial, that we start them and stop them very quickly. By.

B

The way dr. Finn JDK has docker images, creepy news of the bank clip open j9, oh good, okay, alright, you know, there's a key in switching to a bottle to ATK.

A

Right right, in fact- and that was one of the motivators for Jim Crowley I- think was hey. How can we, if we, if we switch over to adopt open JDK, we get the benefit of their their standard images?

A

Very good thanks.

A

Now, that's that's all that I have right now, I haven't done any evaluation of open j9 I haven't seen a pull request yet I think next steps there are to discuss.

A

Discuss the issues with in the dev mailing list and yes, experiment now what one of the thoughts I had was agents and the master there was a report I remember on the mailing list of significant improvements in master startup time, but I believe the person who did those tests was using this preload cache to make the startup time even better any other things that you wanted to note there Alex that's good for me.

A

Okay, Natasha I, see that you would joined thanks very much for joining us Natasha's, a contributor from our from the google Summer of Code.

C

A

There topics that you wanted to be sure that we put onto the agenda Natasha.

C

So this was like a couple weeks ago, like ask me so I gotten some like feedback on the plug-in installation manager, and so all I could invited me to like just discuss that on one of these calls and I know like last time, the meeting was cancelled or I. Don't know like exactly what happened so yeah so I. If there's time, I wouldn't mind like talking over some of.

B

C

That was given I.

A

Think, let's go ahead now! This is a great time, if you don't mind taking it now, I'll take notes and will let you go ahead and and provide a summary where, where we're at with the plug-in installation manager and and what do you think, the next steps are etc go ahead? Okay,.

C

So yeah I guess like we can start kind of like current status, so once school started, I haven't really been doing much work on it. I did have like a couple questions. This was like unrelated to this particular feedback, but I think the next step was like releasing basically the first official version and I was always like a little bit nervous to do that because I don't know it like. If, basically, once you release out, then you have to support. You know backwards, compatibility so I don't know.

C

Maybe Alex would have some input like do you think that's good to go or is there anything else a you think should be included or taken out before I. Do that.

B

I thought it was at a really good safe is how you've done phenomenal work over the summer, so I think it's I think it's ready for our first release and and yeah. You do have to think about backward compatibility and stuff, but yeah at a certain point. You're not gonna, be making a ton of changes. I would think, but just adding features I think it should be okay, not too bad to support it and Plus. Remember it you're, not the sole person that has to support it either.

B

So you have a whole team of contributors who can help too. So just remember.

A

That good yeah, the repositories is open right. It's open in the sense that it's a public repository so yeah.

C

A

Can submit pull requests for your you to evaluate, or now Natasha the we did, get a transition to the github from wiki for documentation to github I assumed that the plugin installation manager hasn't gone through that transition. Yet so, if someone wanted to contribute a pull request to you for that change, you'd at least I soon be willing to evaluate it. Have I understood correctly.

C

Yeah so I guess I understand so I know I get asked about that too, and are you talking about like transitioning from JIRA to like github issues, or are you doing something else.

A

No not for issues. So it's good question, so issues with you can continue to track wherever the documentation typically is in a readme file or some other place. Many plugins provide there to have from a long history provided their documentation on wiki Jenkins, C, Iori, o r Jenkins dot IO. So that wiki, though we've taken it read only because of spam problems and because we found that we prefer to maintain the documentation right inside the inside the plugin on its own repository, and I think you're probably actually already putting the documentation there.

A

We just have to make a minor change to your pom file and we'll start publishing automatically onto the site. Plugins Jenkins, dot IO. It won't know because it's.

B

Not a plug-in okay, well, I, don't know if there's a wiki tree right now is there Natasha I.

C

Don't think so, I think at least all the documentation I've written has pretty much been directly on github, okay,.

A

So no issue, then that's that's. Let me put a note for mark. We investigate how tools are documented.

A

Where etc, so then that probably means, if anything, if we want to add further documentation, it might be put it on Jenkins dot, IO or put a little link on Jenkins that I owed to the extra documentation on github.

B

Yeah I'm not sure like I'm, not sure like where Jenkins about runner. First, he said: Docs mm-hmm,.

C

B

Io, so that would be a good documentation, big yeah.

A

Great I will put that on there on the dock sig agenda for tomorrow morning, thanks Natasha back to you, okay,.

C

All right and then uh so, just in terms of some of the feedback that had been given. So all of that is posted on art that I posted on the git er chat boy, so some of it I think is not as relevant or I. Think you know if I guess it does in some ways point out that maybe I should make more things clear on the on the documentation, but so I'll just kind of go over.

C

Some of that. So.

C

I think so I guess I. The first question that I had was so in terms of like, if you like, input for the tool, if you have a txt file, it'll kind of accept, like the falling format like the plug-in name, the version and then like a URL. If you want to download it directly from a URL, and so one of the problems that I had sort of had was like.

C

So those are separated by colon and um but then there's also kind of like a colon and like if in your url, so I think that that more or less it was like kind of hard for me to figure out like the best way to I guess her site, and so um one of the things that like I had done was just like and I think. This is what I was already doing. But if like, if you have say you, if you do input of a URL, then the version will just be ignored and I.

C

Think, like the expectation, would be that people would just leave that null or just like, have an empty string there. um But it could. You could end up in some situations where people like don't do that or it could be sort of confusing because yeah. Basically, if you have a URL, then the version would just kind of be ignored and the if, if you're downloading it from a URL, you could actually have it.

C

If you did include a version than where those versions don't match so I don't know: do you guys have any feedback on that, because I try to make it like sort of clearer, so I think, like what I had said is like basically that you should include the quote: unquote: placeholder for a version but like what I meant by that is just have that null.

C

So he like pointed out that yeah you could end up with sort of, and this is true any way that you could end up with kind of like these, like weird scenarios, so um yeah, do you guys have any feedback on that.

B

Are you using what let's put up that then, if I are using like reggae.

C

um I think I'm using is I, think I'm using split there's.

B

A second parameter that you can pass the split do a limit three years: I, don't know if that solves the issue, but it's something you can try. Okay,.

C

I might be doing that um I can't I spent actually over in a while since I've like looked at that I'd have to double-check and see if I remember, that was one of the things that I was first creating it. That was like seemed a little tricky, but yeah I can check that.

A

Yes, so I'm I'm, not overly worried about I I, think the choice to put colons is the separator between the of the things that follow plug-in name is the right choice, because you keep compatibility and for me that was the crucial thing, so I wouldn't I would lobby against switching separators I'm, not as concerned about the hey. If you, if you specified a version and the URL you get exactly what's at the URL, that's for me, that's desired.

A

Behavior I would not want you to silently apply some rules to the or apply rules to that optional. Url. To attempt to use the version number URL is is not used in the other, the other formats that typically use plugins txt file right, they only say plug-in, name and version. As far as I recall, you know, URL.

B

Or you plan yeah I would I would say just kind of give it an order of precedent, but the URL is the highest precedence and then the version is secondary precedence. Maybe that's what you put in the docs okay you're, getting that URL, regardless of what version it is or what version you specify all right. Okay,.

C

B

That's my version. You get that version.

C

Okay, okay, that makes sense, yeah, I, think I think basically kind of my tape. My one takeaway was like maybe I just need to make the docs a little clearer because it seemed like some of the wording. I had was like a little bit confusing.

B

C

Yeah I feel like it's one of those things you don't realize it's confusing to other people and until they start looking at it, because you've been looking at it for so long or you just kind of expect that people should know, huh but this is not always a good assumption.

C

um Okay, so let me see what some of the other feedback is.

C

Okay, um so this is, he said, or he recommended versioning the plug-in input txt file, which he said this will allow you to make updates to the parameters, how easily maintaining backwards compatibility. Many public api's do this, for example, Tocker composes, llamó files. You guys think that that would also be like a good idea.

A

I don't object, but that means you've now introduced a syntax that none of the other tools understand, because so versioning the plugins text, file, I, think means add one or more lines right that declare what the version number is of this text file right. Yes,.

C

That's my understanding, but.

B

Does he want you to store off the version that was previously used and then compare it or what ones I? Don't remember the feedback on the physical items, um I.

C

A

Alex I think it was that it's added its added inside the file right, so there's no need to store it because it's in plugins txt itself, that's a it's a syntax. So there is a comment: format. Isn't there Alex that the hash mark is used as a comment.

B

C

um Yeah I think it was just if, like okay, my understanding is like if it if I change, something about like the format so in the future like that, would just help with kind of knowing which which format you're currently on or if you're, trying to use like an older format. So I guess I get in some ways if we always say like it has to be backwards compatible going forward. But maybe there's this. If you want to continue to add things, maybe it would be helpful for you to know.

C

I'm I, don't know, see yeah, so you guys don't think that that's necessary or it just doesn't it's different from the way, a lot of other. You said just kind of like the way it's done now and in other places, no.

A

Objections for me to adding it, but I would just add it as a parsed comment right, the the format, the file format already accepts comments, yeah and if, if you said, hey we're going to buy a de-facto standard make the part if, if the first line starts with a hash mark, a space, the word version colon and then some string that will be treated as the version of the of the file format. Then you haven't broken compatibility and if, in the future someday, you said, I need to make a major format, change people could say.

A

Alright. The version number is now version two instead of one and and you could then honor that in parsing the file, it's so long as long as you don't object using it as a as a de-facto standard by by declaring it as to be a comment in the current format, the.

B

Other things that can be done is, if you do need to change formats in the future, you can add a command line parameter. You know, Burton to parser or whatever you know, version 2. There's something like that, though. Okay.

A

B

Be fine, I, don't know.

A

I'm hesitant have you added as a non comment just because then other tools that read plugins dot txt won't know what to do with it. Gotcha.

C

What other tools does that include so.

A

The the install plugins SH or is that the right script name inside the dockerfile image. There is a script that parses plug-ins txt and uses it to load that define plugins into a docker image. Yes,.

B

Replace that screen I mean not for a period of time necessarily, but we definitely want to get as soon as a you know. 1.0 release is done. You want to start for yars and stuff and testing and so forth. So I yeah.

C

Okay, are there other places where, because I I think yeah in terms of the plug-in the plug-in install plugins bash scripts, the yeah? The goal would just be that this would take the place of that. So.

A

I'm not I'm, not aware of others, but given the breadth and the depth of people's use of Jenkins I'm, confident there are other places where that format has been used.

C

C

Okay and then the next piece is feedback, so I I haven't ever used, terraform, so I, don't know I, guess, I didn't really understand this quite or I didn't have enough context for this. He said and I don't know. If this would be a plan with this. Well anyway, it's but he said, should you expand your tool to interact directly with Jenkins? A great feature to add would be terraformed support.

C

That way you could represent all the desired plugins and HCL lossy decorative language for infrastructure code, which would easily, which would lead to easily automated use of your tool. So I don't know if you guys understand that feedback, no.

A

I'm I'm a customer to terraform being used to define I declare it to give a declarative, decanate declaration, a declarative definition of cloud infrastructure and that lets. For instance, we use it to define a whole bunch of machines that we'll use for training and then automatically carry them down when we're done and and so terraform. In that case, just lets us declare I want this many machines of this type with this installed on them, etc. I think that's way beyond the your current scope. Okay,.

C

Okay, yeah, that was just yeah some of the feedback he gave and then the last sort of thing that he had said was so we had guys sort of back and forth about some of the default behaviors. So in terms of like which plugins you and the dependencies that you install so ultimately what I ended up doing was making it by default to install the dependencies that are listed within like the metadata in the update center.

C

But the problem with that is that sometimes those are a little bit conservative or maybe a little bit I, don't know, there's much like newer forms, but with the previous tool with like always getting the latest dependencies. The problem with that was that those aren't always deterministic, so it changes as later plug-ins come out, so so the last piece of feedback that he said and I think that this is I.

C

Guess like a good idea that I haven't done yet, but he said that he was a fan of the deterministic route by default, with the optional ability to clinical update, auto update, all so yeah, so I think basically he's. He said that he's a fan of having software. That does the same thing. You know today and six months from now, but it's good to also get the latest version, because that's most likely like the most secure and yeah, then he could perform like updating like I guess on his own time.

C

So I think that was most of this stuff. I, don't know if you have any other is there's a few other things.

C

Yeah I guess yeah for.

A

My clarity Natasha so.

C

A

Installation manager today has chosen the deterministic path: that's goals, okay, so you can read inside the metadata from plug in a to decide which of its which version of its dependence. You should be installed and I assume if I declare explicitly one of those dependencies and it surgeon. You use my explicitly declared one, not the implicit one from the updates right.

C

Right and then, but there was like a lot of you- know: feedback on that to where people we also wanted to have compatibility with. What's done now, so yeah there's also the option where you can always just take the latest.

C

If you want, but by default, so by default it'll be it should be deterministic and you should get ya whatever those versions are and then, if you do want like a higher version or the latest of specific dependencies, you could specify that and then yeah, if you, if you do, want just take to take the latest of all, then you can specify that to you.

A

Excellent thanks. Thank you for that summary. Thanks very much.

C

um Okay, so yeah I guess that's most of that. So I don't know if you guys have any other feedback or anything I mean if you I could probably do like a release today. If now, that I feel a little bit more confident that it sounds like it's ready, I think and um yeah I, just hadn't really once school started, I had a lot more distraction, so I haven't been able to dedicate as much time I actually.

A

You've done wonderful things. Thank you very much for your contributions in the community and Natasha I. Think I think it's time to do, one that, oh one, that was not the last release right, we're gonna. We intend to continue releasing so calling if one got always had plenty of time to debate it plenty of time to settle. Certainly there will be more things discovered and it feels perfectly reasonable to call it wonder, though. Okay.

A

Great congratulations. Anything else. No, not sure know.

C

Anything, that's it from my end, super.

A

Alright, thank you very much so Alex. The next topic we had on the agenda was darker multi arch. Anything you want to report there, particularly given the adopt openjdk discussions.

B

Not at this point, I still need for you kind of what adopted a OpenJDK, how that would work for the multi ERG stuff. We have a lot of scripts in place right now and I just need to review all that and I had a champion great.

A

Okay and anything else on the windows installer status, we've talked about Jenkins, core automation and the code signing certificate being the the crucial thing there anything else that needs to be highlighted. I.

B

Do have a pull request in place on the packaging repository I can't move my changes. Isn't there and Olivier is using that as part of those release, automation so he's building the Installer and so forth on his relief infrastructure and so yeah we're just waiting on the good buddy good, great.

A

Excellent okay super thank you.

A

Last topic, I had was October fest and the platform topics. I am thrilled to note that we have over 50, first-time contributors that have come on to the project in its plugins or other core or other tools. Since the start of October over a hundred pull requests, we've got only a week left. Here's your chance, keep promoting it, keep encouraging people to look at the newbie friendly bugs it's it's an impressive set.

A

There are still over 200 new bee-friendly issues that people can look at this little dashboard presents them like this, so you can choose the component that you want to use that you'd like to help. You can choose the severity across the top and then, when you do that, it will show you the bugs in that type. So, let's look, for instance, at my favorite, the platform labeler and it's three open newbie friendly bugs, and here they are. They are actually three feature: requests automatically: labeled linux, mint automatically label, Fedora Linux and automatically label clear Linux.

A

So if somebody wanted to contribute, they could do use those only a week left on oktoberfest. Any questions with regard to Oktoberfest.

B

None for me great.

A

Thanks and we will defer, the configuration is code topic until Oleg returns. Hope to see everybody in two weeks, thanks Natasha thanks, Alex nick mark appreciate it Thanks.