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From YouTube: Interim Joint Committee on Judiciary (8-3-23)
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A
B
D
E
A
I'm
here-
and
so
the
first
item
is
to
consider
the
minutes
from
the
second
meeting.
Is
there
a
motion
to
approve
the
minutes?
His
emotion
is
there
a
second
there's,
a
second
all,
those
in
favor,
please
say
aye.
Those
opposed
no
in
the
minutes
are
approved
our
first
item,
so
we're
going
to
go
out
of
order.
A
little
bit
on
the
agenda
is
immunity
from
Criminal
liability
for
health
care
providers,
House
Bill,
252,
representative
Jason
nemas,
sir
you're
already
at
the
table.
A
E
Jason
nemes
and
thank
you
for
calling
us
first,
my
my
friend,
Miss
I,
see
Miss
Hester
is
on
here
she's
stepping
out
of
the
operating
room
to
testify.
Let
her
identify
herself
for
the
record
and
then
we'll
be
we'll
be
quick
on
our
explanation.
E
Thank
you
Mr
chairman,
so
this
is,
as
you
can
see,
a
four
set,
a
four
subsection
one
less
than
one
page
Bill.
What
it
does
is.
It
says
that
is
if
a
health
care
provider
is
doing
their
Duty,
providing
health
care
services
to
our
people,
then
they
won't
be
criminally
liable
unless
they've
engaged
in-
and
this
is
subsection
three
gross
negligence
or
wanting
will
for
malicious
or
intentional
misconduct.
E
So
it
protects
them
from
having
to
answer
in
a
criminal
court
of
of
anything
that
they
they
might
do,
have
any
mistakes
that
they
might
have
made.
I
want
to
mention
very
quickly
that
this
does
not
have
anything
to
do
with
civil
civil
liability.
So
that's
the
nutshell.
I
think
Mr
has
a
few
words
to
say
and
then
we'll
ask
answer
any
questions.
F
Ladies
and
gentlemen
of
the
committee,
I
would
like
to
thank
you
for
your
time
and
attention
today,
as
previously
stated,
I'm
April
Hester
a
nurse
and
ethicist
representing
the
Kentucky
Nurses
Association
I'm.
Very
sorry,
I
couldn't
be
there
with
you
guys
today
in
person,
like
representative
Nema,
said
I'm
on
a
quick
lunch
break
stepping
out
to
talk
to
you
guys
about
a
very
important
issue
that
can
affect
each
and
every
health
care
provider
within
our
state.
A
little
bit
of
background
on
the
Kentucky
Nurses
Association.
F
They
represent
90
000
nurses
within
the
Commonwealth,
and
we
represent
each
and
every
one
of
those
nurses,
regardless
of
their
specialty
or
field
within
nursing,
and
there
are
80
different
nursing
practices.
In
this
great
state
alone,
the
nurses
in
general
comprise
53.3
percent
of
the
entire
Health
Care
Workforce
and
nationally
there
are
4.4
million
nurses
like
other
health
care
professions.
F
The
need
for
nurses
is
great
and
it's
very
important
to
focus
on
the
health
care
provider
shortage
to
attract
individuals
to
come
into
their
profession,
as
well
as
retain
the
current
health
care
providers
that
are
in
our
current
Workforce.
One
way
that
we
can
do
this
is
to
eliminate
the
possibility
of
of
being
criminally
charged
for
medical
errors
that
happen.
Removing
this
barrier
not
only
helps
to
retain
health
care
providers
by
decreasing
those
fears
of
criminal
ramifications
and
makes
Health
Care
professions
more
appealing.
F
It
also
and
more
importantly,
it
increases
patient
safety
and
it
removes
those
red
tape,
barriers
to
and
the
fear
of
reporting
those
errors.
A
quick
quote
from
Don
Newman.
He
says
making
errors,
people
make
errors
and
those
lead
to
accidents,
accidents
lead
to
death.
The
standard
solution
is
to
blame
people
involved
right.
If
people
find
if
we
find
out
who
made
The
Heirs,
we
punish
them.
We
solve
the
problem
right
well,
wrong.
The
problem
is
sold
on
the
fault
of
the
individual
and
more
of
the
system.
F
If
you
change
the
people
without
changing
the
system,
the
problem
will
still
continue.
I'd
like
to
clarify
this
concept
a
little
bit
further
and
relate
it
to
patient
safety
by
using
the
Swiss
Cheese
model.
I,
don't
know
if
anyone
is
familiar
with
that,
but
it's
the
Swiss
Cheese
model
of
accident
causation.
This
model
is
used
in
many
professions.
F
In
Risk
analysis,
risk
analysis
and
risk
management
again
in
multiple
professions
outside
of
Health
Care,
it
Compares
human
systems
to
multiple
slices
of
Swiss
cheese
with
with
the
little
holes
in
them
the
holes
represent
weaknesses
or
failures
within
the
system,
and
then
the
slices
represents
each
and
every
layer
of
Defense.
Within
that
system.
The
accidents
occur
when
the
holes
and
the
slices
align
and
it
allows
a
hazard
to
pass
through
those
holes.
F
The
stack
of
cheese
represents
an
organization's
safety
system
or
fail
safes
that
they
have
in
place
and
the
slices
of
cheese
prevent
hazards
from
resulting
in
harm,
but
every
now
and
then
it
lines
up
just
right
and
allows
that
harm
to
come
through
the
holes
represent
both
latent
conditions
near
misses
and
those
that
are
those
that
are
accidents
waiting
to
happen
and
active
failures.
Where
you
see
the
provider
mistake
or
metaphor
errors,
the
Swiss
Cheese
model
reveals
the
importance
of
improving
latent
or
near-misses
and
decreasing
those
conditions.
So
they
don't
cause
harm.
F
Voluntary
reporting
systems
are
in
place
and
they
provide
submissions
or
reports
of
unsafe
conditions
and
errors,
so
that
system
can
be
improved
and
prevent
cause
of
serious
adverse
effects
or
deaths.
The
problem
here
lies
within
the
fear
of
Retribution.
If
you
report
something
that
you're
gonna
you're
gonna
be
criminally
charged
I'm
just
for
trying
to
do
your
job
and
take
care
of
your
patients,
so
we
feel
like
this
bill
is
needed
to
address.
F
What's
happened
in
other
states,
we
don't
want
it
to
happen
here
in
Kentucky,
when
an
error
occurs
in
any
health
care
provider
is
always
going
to
be
disciplined
by
their
employer
by
possibly
losing
their
jobs
or
even
their
State
Licensing
licensure
board
by
the
removal
of
their
license.
That's
deterrent
enough
without
the
possibility
of
criminal
charges.
On
top
of
this
again
I.
Thank
you
for
your
time
and
your
attention
and
I
look
forward
to
any
discussion
that
we
might
have.
Thank.
E
You
Mr
chairman
I,
think
that
wraps
it
up,
I
would
note
for
everybody
on
the
panel,
but
especially
I,
think
our
lawyers
who
practice
in
this
area
what
one
way
I
think
you
can
look
at
this
is
It's
a
it
kind
of
codifies
what
common
law
is.
It
doesn't
remove
the
ability
of
of
the
prosecutors
that
go
after
Bad
actors
who
engage
in
things
like
intentional
acts,
but
it
effectively
codifies
common
law
to
protect
our
health
care
providers.
It's
very
important
to
them,
especially
important
to
our
to
our
nurses,.
A
Thank
you,
representative
nemus,
and
thank
you
Miss
Hester
I
did
have
a
question
related
to
whether
or
not
we
have
had
an
incident
of
this
in
Kentucky.
It
sounds
like
we
haven't,
but
Ms
Hester
did
reference
other
states
right
so
I'm
I'm,
presuming
that
there
was
an
instance
in
which
right.
E
Nursing
associations
are
discussing
that
it's
important
to
them,
we're
not
aware
of
it
happening
in
Kentucky,
and
we
don't
think
we
should
wait
for
it
to
happen
in
Kentucky
to
protect
it
in
this
way
and
again,
this
is
this
is
a
very
close
to
the
to
the
common
law.
So
it's
it
would
just
make
it
in
statute
to
provide
that
real
that
protection,
so
no
judge
could
change.
H
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman
I
had
a
story
and
a
and
a
question
so
I
had
a
friend
that
was
very
sick
during
covid
and
went
to
the
hospital
and
in
the
hospital
became
progressively
worse
he's
married
to
a
Japanese
lady
and
she
doesn't
speak
English
well,
so
he
had
a
power
of
attorney
friend
there.
H
H
The
the
power
of
attorney
friend
told
him.
They
didn't
want
him
put
on
a
ventilator
despite
that,
and
they
made
a
big
point
of
it,
and
so
did
the
patient.
I
don't
want
a
ventilator,
despite
that
they
put
him
on
a
ventilator
so
the
day
after
they
put
him
on
the
ventilator
he
passed
away.
H
E
This
bill
becomes
law,
so
representative
I
want
to
note
that
that
has
that
would
have
no
this,
but
this
bill
would
have
no
bearing
on
that
family's
right
to
recover
civilly
if
they
had
it
right
before
it
won't
that
this
doesn't
touch
it
at
all.
It
wouldn't
touch
the
opportunity
to
go
after
any
professional's
license
if
there
was
misconduct,
and
that
way
this
bill
doesn't
speak
to
that
or
change
anything
at
all.
With
regard
to
the
out
the
faxes,
you
outline
them,
I,
don't
know
the
facts
other
than
what
you've
just
mentioned.
E
E
As
you've
outlined
the
facts,
I
don't
think
this
bill
would
touch
that
situation.
If
there's
been
an
intentional
violation
of
the
law,
then
this
bill
doesn't
touch
that
it's
only.
It
only
protects
them.
If
there's,
if
it's,
if
it's
a
mistake,
there's
there's
there's
honest
negligence,
things
of
that
nature.
Okay,
so
I,
don't
think
your
situation
would
be
altered
in
any
way.
If
this
would
a
law,
okay,.
G
A
Thank
you,
representative,
Moser.
J
J
K
F
So
I'm
gonna
address
the
systems
errors
that
I
spoke
about
earlier.
Whenever
I
was
speaking
on
the
Swiss
Cheese
model,
there
was
an
incident
where
a
patient
had
a
sentinel
event
and
for
all
of
you,
that's
not
MediCal.
A
patient
had
passed
away
due
to
the
incorrect
Drug
Administration.
There
were
several
fail-safes
in
place
at
the
hospital
on
which
that
it
occurred
and
that
nurse
after
this
happened
was
brought
forth
on
criminal
charges.
L
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman
I
have
a
comment
and
then
a
couple
of
questions.
If
you
could
indulge
it
please,
yes,
representative,
neimus
I
would
agree
that
basic
negligence,
common
law
negligence
doesn't
rise
to
the
mid.
What
we
would
call
the
Men's
Raya
level
or
a
criminal
case
so
I'm
supportive
of
that
reading
through
looks
like
subsection
three
talks
about
gross
negligence,
Swanton,
willful,
malicious
or
intentional
misconduct,
I'm
just
trying
to
think
through
different
fact
patterns
playing
law
school
here.
What
about
assault
and
battery?
Do
you
think
that
would
be
covered
by
that?
L
Because
I
can
see
foresee
some?
Maybe
some
situations
where
you
may
have
something
that
falls
within
those
Concepts?
Do
you
believe
that's
covered
and
then
second
question
where
it
defines
health
care
provider
is?
Is
it
inclusive
enough
to
pretty
much
cover
everyone
in
any
institution
that
provides
Health,
Care,
Services
I.
E
Think
I
think
it
is,
and
when
we
testify
on
this
in
in
the
in
the
session,
I'll
have
a
list
of
everyone.
All
the
all
the
particular
providers
are
not
just
a
reference
to
the
to
the
statute
with
respect
to
the
assault
and
battery
I
think
those
are
intentional
crimes,
I
think
so.
I
think
the
men's
rate
of
there
would
be
an
intent.
E
K
Thank
you,
I'd
like
to
just
make
one
more
statement,
because
this
is
something
actually
I've
been
thinking
about
a
lot
a
lot
recently
in
part
because
I'm
getting
ready
to
write
an
article
about
it,
but
one
thing
I
want
to
just
make
sure
that
people
understand
is
that
medicine
and
the
practice
of
medicine
is
really
different
than
like
what
we
do
here
in
medicine.
If
you
make
a
mistake,
you
are
obligated
to
acknowledge
it
and
absolutely
do
anything
and
everything
you
can
to
fix
it.
K
Those
are
your
responsibilities
to
acknowledge
that
you
made
a
mistake
and
do
everything
you
can
to
fix
it.
Anything
that
would
make
somebody
feel
like
they
need
to
cover
up
a
mistake
is
antithetical
to
the
good
practice
of
medicine.
It
is
not
what
we
do.
It
is
so
important
for
people
to
understand
that
in
medicine,
the
actual
truth
matters
and
if
you
lie
you're
gone
because
we
can't
trust
you
anymore.
E
E
M
I'm
by
Mr
chair,
yes,
you
may
fair
enough
and
if
you
can,
that
would
be
great.
So
the
point
behind
the
question:
is
this
I'm
very
familiar
with
the
situation?
M
Vanderbilt
followed
it
as
it
was
moving
along
over
the
years,
but
I'm
wondering
whether
or
not
we're
getting
ready
to
extend
an
immunity
in
a
service
sector
that
we're
going
to
have
six
to
67
lined
up
right
behind
it
afterwards
saying
we
need
the
immunity
also,
so
we
need
to
be
prepared
for
that,
or
is
this
distinguishable
by
the
nature
of
the
service
being
rendered?
That's
why
I
asked
thanks.
N
Thank
you,
Mr
chair,
like
probably
everyone
in
the
public.
The
facts
of
the
Tennessee
situation
were
not
known
to
me
without
some
research,
and
so
I
want
to
extremely
briefly
recap:
what
happened
there
and
then
ask
a
question.
So
in
Tennessee
a
nurse
was
told
to
retrieve
a
certain
medication
for
a
patient.
She
retrieved
the
wrong
medication.
N
N
It's
an
egregious
situation
to
be
certain
and
clearly
I
understand
the
nurse
anesthetist
explaining
that
that's
a
system
problem,
but
my
my
question
is
this:
so,
with
section
three
of
this
bill,
we're
not
limiting
for
gross
negligence,
wanting
willful,
malicious
or
intentional
misconduct.
Would
the
nurse
in
Tennessee
who,
who
made
this
egregious
deathly
error,
be
subject
to
criminal
liability
in
Kentucky?
There's.
E
No
way
of
knowing
without
knowing
more
than
that,
you
have
to
look,
what
was
the
proof
presented
did
was
he
did
she
act
in
a
way
that
was
that
was
intentional,
that
she
act
was
it
just?
Was
it
just
an
honest
mistake,
there's
no
way
of
knowing
from
what
I
know
today,
I'd
have
to
dive
into
the
actual
proof
that
was
presented,
but
in
that
kind
of
situation
you
could
present.
E
You
could
make
a
case
if
the
facts
align
correctly,
where
a
nurse
would
be
grossly
negligent,
in
which
case
he
would
not
be
shielded
from
from
Criminal
liability
that
this
bill
would
protect,
but
that
that's
a
high
standard
as
it
ought
to
be
agreed,
and
so
that's.
What
we're
trying
to
do
here
is
we're
not
trying
to
protect
the
situation
where
there's
gross
misconduct,
we're
trying
to
protect
just
honest
errors.
All.
D
A
quick
question
Also
regarding
section
three,
where
we
talk
about
not
limiting
liability
for
negligence,
wanton
willful,
malicious
and
intentional
misconduct.
We
do
have
a
separate
definition
for
recklessness
in
Kentucky
statute
and
I'm
wondering
whether
or
not
whether
that
was
considered
as
part
of
this
or
if
it
was
intentionally
left
out
and
if
so,
why?
I.
E
H
E
E
I
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman,
just
a
quick
question
for
clarification
for
for
myself
and
actually
everyone.
This
will
not
prevent
a
criminal
investigation.
It
just
changes
the
standards
that
someone
would
have
to
to
meet
in
order
to
be
charged
criminally,
which
is
gross
negligence
wanting
willful
militias,
so
they
could
still
be
charged
if
they
meet
those
criterias
and
it
doesn't
prevent
them
being
investigated
to
see
if
they
fit
that
criteria
am
I
correct
and
that
interpretation
certainly.
E
A
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman,
thank
you,
representative
Blanton.
Thank
you,
representative,
nemus
and
Miss
Hester
for
your
presentation.
We
appreciate
your
time
this
morning
and
we'll
take
up
our
next
agenda
item,
which
is
the
Department
of
Public
advocacy
update,
and
we
have
Damon
Preston
and
B
Scott
West
with
us
to
provide
that
update
and
if
you,
each
of
you
are
well
known
to
our
committee.
But
if
you
would
introduce
yourselves
and
then
you
may
proceed.
O
O
It's
an
honor
to
be
here
this
morning
we
presented
yesterday
for
a
pretty
good
amount
of
time
at
the
budget
subcommittee,
and
so
for
those
of
you
that
were
here.
This
is
going
to
be
a
little
bit
of
a
repeat
but
I'm
going
to
try
to
speed
through
the
the
parts
in
common
with
yesterday.
O
The
mission
of
this
committee
is
different
in
some
ways,
but
is
not
different
than
others,
because
I
think
I
I
view
the
the
role
of
this
Committee
in
part
to
be
overseeing
how
the
justice
system
in
Kentucky
works
and
I
hope.
You
would
agree
that
the
justice
system
in
Kentucky
can't
work
without
a
functioning
public
defender
system.
O
I
had
a
good
conversation
yesterday
with
Senator
schickel
on
kind
of
the
origins
of
the
public
defender
system,
but
whatever
the
origins
were
in
2023,
we
are
essential
to
the
workings
of
the
system
and
so
I'm
going
to
talk
about
that
and
some
of
our
challenges
this
morning
when
I
first
start
with
just
some
of
the
numbers.
These
are
22
numbers.
We
have
not
yet
completed
our
20
fiscal
year,
23
report,
but
overall
we're
responsible
for
representation
and
over
140
000
cases.
O
Our
average
caseload
of
375
is
not
as
high
as
it
used
to
be
about
10
years
ago,
but
it's
higher
than
it
than
it
was
in
the
depths
of
covid.
The
the
criminal
justice
system
is
coming.
The
number
of
cases
is
rising
again.
O
That
average
caseload
is
based
on
full
Staffing
as
I'm
going
to
explain
in
a
minute.
We
have
not
had
full
Staffing
since
before
covid,
and
we
are
far
from
Full
Staffing.
Today
we
are
very
efficient
system
handling
cases,
criminal
cases,
everything
from
Juvenile
and
traffic
cases,
traffic
cases
that
can
result
in
jail
time,
all
the
way
up
to
robberies,
sex
cases
and
even
Capital
murders,
and
all
of
that
together
we
handle
at
an
average
of
435
dollars
per
case.
So
we
are
a
very
efficient
system.
O
You
can
see
the
different
kinds
of
cases
we
have
there.
There
are
national
standards
for
how
much
appointed
defense
counsel
should
be
handling
as
far
as
cases,
and
when
you
put
all
of
those
it's,
it's
not
simply
a
number
of
cases,
but
it's
types
of
cases
and
when
you
put
all
that
in
the
formula
it
spits
out
that
we're
at
about
36
percent
above
national
standards
and
again
that's
if
we're
at
full
Staffing,
which
we
are
not
so
we're
even
higher
at
our
current
Staffing
I,
want
to.
O
Thank
you
for
the
raises
that
you
provided
last
year.
It
was
essential
to
stopping
a
crisis
of
turnover
that
we
had
and
I'm
going
to
talk
about.
The
success
of
that
I
want
to
thank
the
Personnel
cabinet
as
well
for
helping
us
and
implementing
those
raises.
We
raised
our
attorney's
starting
salary
from
48
000
to
52,
000
52
000
is
still
way
low,
but
symbolically
getting
above
50
was
a
big
deal
to
us
and
so
we're
happy
to
be
there.
O
The
and
and
we
accomplished
the
raises
by
creating
a
salary
schedule
for
everyone
that
works
for
DPA
attorney
and
non-attorney,
and
we're
able
to
give
raises-
and
our
average
raise
overall,
both
for
attorneys
and
non-attorneys.
They
all
we've
provided
raises
to
almost
every
DPA
employee
and
the
average
overall
was
22
percent,
but
it
was
22
for
both
attorneys
and
non-atturies.
They
were
equally
spread.
O
So
our
attorney
turnover-
this
is
a
a
four
year,
spread
into
five
time
periods,
and
you
can
see
that
in
40
in
in
2020,
when
covid
was
at
its
peak,
we
had
lower
turnover
then
than
average,
because
people
didn't
lose
jobs
during
those
days.
Events
didn't
didn't
leave
jobs
during
those
first
few
days
of
uncertainty,
but
then
in
21
to
22
a
year
period
we
had
109
attorneys
for
context.
O
All
of
DPA
has
330
attorneys,
so
it's
almost
one
in
three
attorneys
that
walked
out
the
door
in
a
one-year
period
after
we
gave
the
raises,
which
is
the
next
period
that
was
cut
in
half
to
about
55,
but
you
can
see
that
even
when
it
was
cut,
we
weren't
back
to
2019,
which
was
a
normal
year
that
was
52,
was
about
our
normal
turnover
rate,
so
we
didn't
even
get
down
to
what
we
were
pre-covered
and
then
I
updated
this
before
yesterday's
session
to
show
that
that
in
the
this
year
it's
creeping
back
up
to
67,
but
unfortunately,
in
my
email
this
morning,
I
learned
of
two
other
attorneys
that
have
left
when
I
put
that
in
the
formula
it
raised
our
annual
rate
for
this
year
up
to
73.
O
So
it
is,
it
is
definitely
trending
back
upwards.
We've
lost
seven
attorneys
in
the
last
two
weeks,
and
so
this
is.
This
is
a
crisis
if
you
total
up
every
every
number
on
the
board
here
for
this
four
year
period,
we're
at
about
300
attorneys,
we've
lost
in
the
last
four
years.
O
Now,
obviously,
that's
not
300
that
that
doesn't
mean
we
only
have
30
people
that
were
here
in
2019
we've
we've
had
people
that
have
come
and
left
during
this
time
period,
because
turnover
continues
even
for
new
attorneys
that
just
don't
don't
stay
very
long.
I
want
to
give
a
quick
example
of
our
challenge
here.
So
this
is
our
pay
schedule.
For
this
year,
I
I
mentioned
our
starting
salary.
Last
year
went
up
to
52..
We
raised
it
three
percent
to
go
to
53
560
for
this
fiscal
year.
O
The
the
numbers
in
green
here
on
this
pay
schedule
are
the
midpoint
I'm
sure
you
understand
that
as
18a
employees,
I'm
Bound
by
the
pay
ranges
that
the
Personnel
cabinet
dictates
and
I
can't
give
some
I
can't
appoint
someone
a
salary
higher
than
midpoint,
so
those
our
pay
schedule
has
essentially
hit
the
ceiling
for
those.
But
at
this
moment,
if
you
are
look,
if
you're
an
attorney
here
and
you're
looking
for
a
job
and
you
go
on
indeed.com
you'll
see
that
the
Jefferson
County
attorney
is
offering
a
starting
prosecutor.
O
O
It's
62
000
is
the
most
I
could
pay
a
law
school
graduate
under
under
current
class
specifications,
so
I
can't
come
within
six
thousand
dollars
of
the
prosecutors
pay
offer
under
current
salary
or
under
current
structure.
So
one
of
my
asks
is
that
I'd
be
given
the
freedom
to
use
our
budget,
I'm,
obviously
going
to
live
within
my
budget,
but
if
I
have
money,
I
should
have
the
freedom
to
be
able
to
pay
attorneys
professionals
more
and
pay
whatever
I
need
to
fill
a
position
in
the
courtroom.
O
Overall,
I'll
just
point
out
that
prosecutor
funding,
even
excluding
all
Ag
and
the
AG,
certainly
has
prosecutor
functions
as
the
as
the
top
prosecutor
in
the
state,
but
even
excluding
all
AG
funding
prosecutor
funding
exceeds
Indigent
defense
funding
by
more
than
60
percent
that
you
can
see
the
the
trend
over
the
last
decade
there
it's
been
pretty
consistent
at
around
60
to
70
percent
in
excess
because
of
that,
and
because
prosecutors
are
not
part
of
18a.
O
As
far
as
Limited
in
the
salaries
about
one
in
four
attorneys
who
leave
DPA
go
to
a
prosecutor's
office
for
a
higher
pay,
they
have
freedom
to
say
what
are
you
making
the
DPA
I'll
give
you
5,
000
more
and
I
have
no
ability
again.
Even
if
I
have
the
money,
I
have
no
mechanical
ability
to
match
that,
and
so
they
leave
for
the
for
the
addition.
The
higher
pay.
O
Another
challenge
that
I
just
want
want
you
to
understand
the
context.
There
are
fewer
lawyers
coming
out
of
law
school
now
than
there
have
been
in
40
years.
This
only
goes
back
to
2000,
but
this
graph
exists
back
to
the
80s
and
the
number
of
law
school
graduates
last
year
was
the
lowest
it
had
been
since
the
mid
80s.
So
there's
just
not
enough.
Lawyers
coming
out
among
those
lawyers
that
come
out
pretty
small
subset
are
interested
in
Public
Defense
work
and
so
that
it's
a
very
competitive
market.
O
This
I
want
to
go
through
just
real
quickly
because
we
have
turnover
we
create
Contra.
We
write
contracts
for
private
attorneys
to
handle
cases
that,
because
we
don't
have
a
public
defender,
so
private
attorneys
handle
those
cases
or
dockets.
We
then
try
to
recruit.
We
try
to
recruit,
experienced
criminal
defense
lawyers,
but
those
lawyers
are
the
ones
Contracting
with
us
and
they
and
their
response
is.
Why
would
I
come
work
for
you
you're,
paying
me
by
contract?
O
Why
would
I
take
all
the
hassle
and
limitations
of
state
employment
when
you're
paying
me
anyway,
so
we
can't
recruit
so
we
have
to
write
more
contracts
and
then
what
happens?
Is
our
current
employees
say
now
wait
a
minute.
I
could
go
out
there
and
make
the
same
amount
of
money
and
have
a
private
practice
and
not
be
a
state
employee,
I'll,
just
resign
and
as
I
mentioned
yesterday,
this
is
not
hypothetical.
We
had
a
re.
We
received
a
resignation
letter
this
week
from
one
of
our
attorneys.
O
That
said,
this
exact
thing,
not
not
quite
with
the
the
pointedness
that
I'm
saying
it,
but
but
said
in
the
resignation
letter,
it's
too
stressful
to
be
a
public
defender
on
staff,
but
I'm
going
to
open
private
practice
and
I'll
be
happy
to
handle
any
contracts.
You
can
give
me
so
this
connection
is
not
hypothetical.
We
are
losing
people
and
it's
a
vicious
cycle.
O
The
more
we
lose,
the
more
we
contract,
the
more
we
contract,
the
more
we
lose
and
the
only
way
out
of
that
is
to
raise
the
public
defender
salary
and
to
make
it
attractive
to
stay
and
even
better
become
a
public
defender.
So
that's
part
of
what
the
need
is.
O
It's
round
two
of
raises
I
hate
to
come
back
asking
for
this,
but
while
we've
been
raising
the
rest
of
the
world's
been
raising
what,
as
as
well
prosecutor
salaries
have
gone
up,
private
legal
Market
rates
have
gone
up,
inflation
has
gone
up,
which
means
the
raises
weren't
as
as
meaningful
as
they
might
have
been
at
a
different
time,
so
I
think
being
competitive
is
not
enough.
O
We
should
incentivize
being
a
public
defender
and
instead
of
us
staying
a
public
defender
and
I've
created
this
slide
I
think
three
weeks
ago
in
preparation
for
for
these
presentations
to
say
that
I
think
we
need
to
standardize
Defender
and
prosecutor
salaries
at
seventy
thousand.
When
I
wrote,
this
I
didn't
realize
that
the
Louisville
prosecutor
was
already
offering
68
000.
So
this
is
not
an
outrageous
number
and
so
I
I
think
the
starting
salary
should
be
70
000
for
a
professional
who's.
O
Who's
representing
clients
in
the
Commonwealth,
but
also
the
standardization,
is
something
that
I
I
I
would
invite
further
conversation
about,
because
the
idea
that
it
that
a
good
public
defender
is
is
serving
the
Commonwealth
in
a
courtroom
but
the,
but
the
prosecutor
on
the
other
side
has
has
not
only
more
funding
but
more
freedom
to
take
that
person
into
their
employment
by
offering
them
a
raise.
I
would
like
standard
salaries.
We've
got
a
pay
schedule.
O
I
would
love
to
work
with
the
Commonwealth
and
the
prosecutors
to
get
to
provide
had
funding,
so
the
pay
is
competitive
for
both
sides,
but
that
it's
standard,
so
someone
that
has
10
years
of
experience
in
criminal
law
gets
paid
the
same
at
prosecutor
now
I'm,
not
talking
about
the
elected
officials,
they'll
have
their
own
salary,
but
the
assistance
with
similar
experience.
You
make
the
same
amount
of
money,
and
then
you
go
where
you
want
to
go.
O
O
Hopefully
it
can
be
put
in
chapter
31
and
dpa's
statute,
but
if
not,
maybe
in
the
budget
every
year
we
lose
recruits,
we
recruit
nationally
and
we
lose
recruits
who
say:
I
would
love
to
work
as
a
public
defender
in
Kentucky
I
just
can't
get
from
here
to
there,
because
they're
in
law
school
they've
already
incurred
tens
of
thousands
of
dollars
in
debt.
They
have
to
pay
for
bar
prep.
They
have
to
pay
for
the
bar
exam.
They
have
to
physically
move
here.
They
have
to
pay
their
first
and
last
month's
rent.
O
O
You
know
not
getting
into
the
detail:
I'll
basically
give
you
cash
for
for
what
you
need,
and
in
exchange
for
that
you'll
commit
to
me
that
you'll
work
for
us
for
at
least
two
years
or
three
years,
but
we'll
come
up
with
a
commitment
and
if
they
stay
part
of
that
they
pay
part
of
it
back.
If
they
leave
within
six
months,
they
have
to
pay
the
whole
thing
back,
and
this
is
this
would
be
completely
transparent.
O
I
I
didn't
put
it
on
here,
but
my
proposal
for
this
statute
would
be
that
I
would
I
would
explain
to
you
in
advance
the
criteria
for
these
payments
and
explain
to
you.
After
the
fact.
Every
single
payment
we
made
this
would
all
be
transparent.
This
we're
not
talking
about
some
hidden
slush
fund
here.
This
would
be
a
a
program.
That's
run
out
of
our
department
for
the
purpose
of
improving
services
to
the
Commonwealth.
O
Now
let
me
quickly
run
through
House.
Bill
568,
which
came
through
Judiciary
I
believe
last
year
and
became
law
would
bring
the
Louisville
Public
Defender's
Office
into
DPA
on
July
1
of
2024..
Here's.
What
the
current
status
of
the
Louisville
Public
Defender's
office
is
DPA
is
providing
about
56
percent
of
their
funding
a
little
over
6
million
Louisville
Metro
Government
is
providing
a
little
less
than
5
million
at
44
of
their
overall
funding.
O
That's
for
this
year,
as
of
July
1
of
2024
that
Louisville
Metro
Government
contribution
will
go
to
zero,
and
so
we
will
be
coming
and
asking
for
funding
and
more
on
that
in
just
a
second.
The
Louisville
office,
if
they
had
full
Staffing,
would
be
129
employees
with
78
attorneys
in
reality,
because
they've
had
turnover
same
as
us
and
because
to
a
certain
extent
because
of
the
uncertainty
of
what's
going
on
with
the
transition,
they've
had
a
number
of
resignations.
O
Their
Total
Staffing
is
around
90
to
100,
I,
think
closer
to
90,
probably,
and
they
have
50-ish.
When
I
wrote
this,
but
now
I
think
it's
less
than
50
attorneys
on
staff
there
they
are
doing
the
same
as
us
they're
doing
private
attorney
contracts
through
a
program
that
they
have
called
TWRP
and
in
2022
the
Louisville
office
was
assigned
21
000
cases.
O
So
here's
what
I
need
for
that
I
need
funding
this.
This
legislature
has
required
this
path
now
and
so
step.
Two
is
just
as
important
as
step
one
and
that's
too
funded,
and
so
here's
my
estimated
funding
request,
that's
replacing
the
about
five
million
dollars
that
Louisville
currently
pays.
So
the
state
would
need
to
pick
up
that
Tab
and
then
to
make
the
office
of
state
state
government
office
would
need
about
5.8
million.
O
In
addition
to
that
and
the
assumptions
that
are
that
we
can
get
them
back
to
full
Staffing,
which
is
essential
that
the
employees
will
come
into
the
state
retirement
system
and
that
they
don't
have
to
move
my
doomsday
scenario.
If
we
don't
provide
that
funding
or
provide
assurances
that
we
will
take
care
of
the
office.
Is
that
those
twenty
thousand
clients
on
July
1
are
not
going
to
have
an
attorney,
because
I
can
tell
you
we
have.
We
don't
have
extra
people
in
DPA
to
send
to
Louisville.
O
O
So
we
need
to
communicate
to
them
that
that
office
is
going
to
be
not
only
sustained
but
actually
improved
through
this
service,
and
that
that
they
should
stay
with
us
and
serve
the
clients.
They
are
valuable.
Public
servants
in
Louisville
and
I
want
them
to
work
for
DPA
next
year
and
hang
around.
So
what
we
need
there
and
representative
nemus
has
talked
to
us
and
he's
been
a
a
great
supporter
of
this
effort
and
of
DPA
specifically,
and
we've
discussed
this.
O
What
I'm
calling
a
smooth
transition
statute
that
will
assure
the
employees
in
in
Louisville
that
they
will
have
a
job
that
they
will
have
Merit
protection,
that
they
won't
take
a
pay
cut
and
that
they'll
have
insurance
and
all
the
things
that
they're
worried
about.
Imagine
in
your
job.
If
you
were
told
six
months
from
now,
you
you
involuntarily,
are
losing
your
job
that
creates
anxiety
on
what
am
I
going
to
do.
How
am
I
going
to
have
insurance
for
my
kids,
what
am
I
going
to
have
a
gap
in
pay?
O
The
smooth
transition
statute
would
take
care
of
those
issues
so
now
I
guess
I'll
I'll
pause
for
a
second
I've
got
some
I'm
gonna
go
now
to
other
things,
that
challenge
but
I'll.
If
it's
okay,
chair,
I'll,
open
to
questions
on
the
Louisville
situation,
because
that's
a
big
deal.
E
You
Mr
chairman,
appreciate
Mr,
Preston
and
Mr
West
for
being
here
today.
I
want
to
know
just
a
as
a
way
of
quick
history
and
I'll
be
very
quick.
So
about
60
years
ago
the
U.S
Supreme
Court
said
that
these
kinds
of
services
are
required
for
defendants.
E
At
that
time,
we
had
three
offices
in
Kentucky,
Ashland,
Lexington
and
Louisville
Ashland
was
was
covered
by
by
the
state
system.
When
the
state
system
came
on
a
little
bit
after
the
state
system
came
on
board
and
then
about
15
years
ago,
Lexington's
system
came
on
board.
Lexington's
office
came
on
board
with
a
state
system
very
smooth
transition.
E
There
were
you
know,
anxieties
and
so
forth,
as
there
is
today
and
then
now,
the
entire
time
since
we've
had
this
system,
as
as
both
the
state
and
the
local
boards
public
defender
state
board
and
the
public
defender,
Local
Louisville
board
has
mentioned
in
a
joint
statement.
The
effort
has
always
been
to
get
the
Louisville
office
into
the
Under,
the
Umbrella
of
the
state
system.
It
is
the
I
think
the
Crown
Jewel
system
and
all
of
the
all
of
the
country
Kentucky's
is,
and
so
this
is
the
next
step.
E
I
would
note
that
Louisville
has
been
funding
about
five
million
dollars
this
office
for
many
years
it
is
a
it
is
100
percent
a
state
obligation,
Louisville
has
had,
has
funded
the
office
and
no
other
no
other
office
has
at
least
in
the
last
15
years
since
Lexington's.
So
it's
an
obligation
we
have,
we
need
to
make
sure
that
we
have
the
appropriate
transition.
E
Last
year
we
passed
the
law
requiring
this
to
happen
on
July
1st
2024,
we're
moving
toward
that
we're
meeting
very
frequently
to
talk
about
pension
issues,
to
talk
about
application
issues,
all
the
things
to
make
sure
the
transition
is
smooth.
So
the
person
who
goes
into
Mitch
Perry's
courtroom
in
Louisville
on
June
30th
goes
into
Mitch
Perry's
courtroom
on
July
the
first
in
her
her
her
thought
is
how
can
I
best
represent
my
client
and
not?
Oh,
my
gosh.
E
Again
it
is
a
state
obligation
and-
and
so
I
wanted
to
just
give
give
that
give
that
particular
history
and
so
I
guess
you
and
I
have
talked
in
my
office
about
this,
and-
and
you
informed
me
that
this
can
be
done
by
July
1st.
It
will
be
done
by
July
1st,
so
I
just
want
to
see
that
that
you
make.
You
know,
make
that
commitment
public.
O
Absolutely
representative,
we
we
are
so
thankful
for
your
support.
We
are.
This
is
going
to
happen
by
July
1,
it's
the
law,
but
it's
going
to
happen
well
by
July
1
because
of
the
efforts
that
you're,
leading
through
collaboration,
we
have
we've
always
had
a
good
relationship
with
the
Louisville
office.
So
this
is
not
that
we're
having
to
you
know,
break
down
walls
to
to
get
this
done,
we're
working
with
them.
The
short
time
frame
creates
some
challenges
and
it
certainly
creates
some
anxiety,
but
there's
nothing
insurmountable.
O
We're
going
to
get
this
done
depending
on
the
funding
assuming
assuming
the
money
comes
through
and
I
have
full
faith
that
it's
going
to.
This
will
be
done
at
a
high
level
and
we'll
be
ready
on
July
1.
M
Sorry,
representative
Petrie
has
thank
you
comment
your
question.
Thank
you.
There
are
two
issues
that
we're
dealing
with
here.
Categorically
one
is
the
transition
of
Louisville.
That's
been
just
been
discussed.
M
The
other,
though,
precedes
it
in
time
and
that's
from
the
22
budget
cycle
when
there
was
additional
money
put
into
the
DPA
as
a
Band-Aid
mechanism,
and
we
have
talked
before
that
was
done
while
it
was
done
and
afterwards
about
a
reorganizational
structure
for
DPA,
not
just
the
funding
mechanisms,
not
just
the
pay
scales,
not
just
the
18a
issue
and
all
those
type
things,
and
as
we
approach
the
24
budget
cycle,
I'm
I'm
very
anxious
to
see
a
build
draft
that
addresses
those
things
separate
and
apart
from
the
Louisville
transition
and
in
some
senses
it
has
to
precede
the
Louisville
transition,
because
we
don't
know
exactly
what
pay
scales
everyone's
going
into
or
what
structures
they'll
be
walking
into.
O
Yes-
and
we
appreciate
the
good
conversations
we've
had
with
you
and
with
other
members
of
of
the
house,
mostly
I,
think
on
those
topics
we
we
are
open.
We've
we've
had
good
conversations
on
where
we're
heading.
Yesterday
at
the
at
the
budget
subcommittee,
I
previewed
some
of
the
reorganization,
that's
going
to
be
necessary
to
accommodate
Louisville
and
the
growth
of
the
agency.
O
The
conversations
we've
had
will
be
part
of
that
so
I,
so
I
actually
foresee
in
the
spring,
probably
having
at
least
two,
if
not
three
bills
related
to
dpa's
organization,
some
directly
tied
to
Louisville
and
some
more.
What
you're
talking
about.
M
And
Mr
chair,
if
I
may
that's
great
just
to
set
the
timetable
expectations,
we
need
to
have
those
bills
ready
before
session,
so
that
we
can
take
a
correct
physical
accounting
of
what's
implicated
so
that
it
can
be
prepared
in
advance
of
the
session
coming
up
in
24..
All.
D
Thank
you,
chairman
and
I
know.
We
heard
this
yesterday
in
the
in
the
BR
sub,
but
I
just
wanted
to.
Thank
you
all
for
your
detailed
presentation,
I'm,
a
Louisville
legislator
and
I
know.
O
O
I
want
to
go
through
just
real
quickly
and
I
want
to
I
I'm
not
going
to
go
too
long
on
this,
but
some
of
the
challenges
we're
facing
right
now.
Some
of
you
may
be
aware
of
some.
You
may
not.
First
down,
we
have
a
challenge
on
representing
children
these
days,
if
you've
been
at
Juvenile,
Justice
oversight,
commission
or
perhaps
previous
meetings
of
this
committee.
You
know
that
DJJ
is
currently
dealing
with
challenges
related
to
where
juveniles
are
placed.
O
One
of
two
things
is
happening
either
a
lawyer
is
having
to
essentially
spend
an
entire
day
to
travel
across
the
state
to
see
one
or
two
clients
or,
in
reality
and
frankly,
more
likely,
the
attorney's
just
not
seeing
the
kid
so
our
most
vulnerable
clients,
14
15
16
year
old,
kids
facing
sometimes
serious
felony
charges
with
transfer
possibilities
and
possible
felony
convictions,
or
even
just
commitment
to
DJJ
and
being
out
of
their
Community
for
an
extended
period
of
time.
Those
children
essentially
don't
have
a
lawyer.
O
Our
lawyers
try
to
do
zoom,
we're
we're
Advocates
of
virtual
meetings
and
virtual
hearings
within
reason
when
it's
when
it's
voluntary
and
works
for
everybody
involved,
but
a
15
year
old
child,
that's
had
a
a
rough
upbringing
and
is
involved
in
the
Juvenile
Justice
System
doesn't
have
family
support.
You
know
some
face.
They've,
never
seen
before
on
screen
saying
I
represent
you
and
I
want
to
look
out
for
your
interest.
That's
that's
not
going
to
have
the
impact
it
needs
to
have.
O
Q
O
Challenging
for
the
clients
who
don't
have
an
attorney,
but
it's
challenging
for
DPA
to
meet
this
responsibility
that
we
badly
want
to
meet,
which
is
to
provide
quality
representation
to
children.
Another
challenge-
that's
been
discussed
here
very
much,
but
I
want
to
make
sure
our
voice
is
heard
is
virtual
Court.
O
There
are
still
many
courts
where
incarcerated
defendants
are
required
to
attend
court.
Virtually
covid
was
the
justification
to
start
that
process,
but
it's
continued
and
covid
is
no
longer
the
justification.
It's
now.
It's
Staffing
or
efficiency
or
reduced
costs,
there's
a
real
cost
to
the
system.
If
people
sitting
in
jail
don't
get
to
come
to
court
and
to
require
someone
to
attend
court,
virtually
is
I.
Think
inconsistent
with.
A
O
Yeah
I'm,
not
a
free
trial,
I'm,
not
aware
of
anything
any
just
jurisdiction
that
is
handling
trials
currently
virtually,
but
but
it's
for
all
pre-trials
in
some
areas.
So
anything
short
of
that
I've
I've
been
present
in
the
courtroom
where
guilty
pleas
to
10
15
years
in
prison
are
taken
virtually
and
I've.
Looked
at
the
face
of
the
client
on
the
camera
and
I
felt
that
person
has
no
idea
what's
going
on
and
they're
pleading
guilty
to
some
for
10
or
15
year,
prison
sentence,
but
even
aside
from
that.
O
So
that
goes
to
number
three
here
as
far
as
defendants
not
meaningfully
participating
in
the
court
hearings,
but
the
jail
costs
are
increased
because
studies
show
that
if
someone
is
appearing
virtually
before
court,
the
court
is
less
likely
to
reduce
Bond
or
to
release
a
defendant
and
I.
Don't
know
why
I
put
DPW
DPA
work
here
in
those
cases
is
doubled
due
to
pre-court
and
post-court
jail
visits,
because
we
have,
if
we
know
a
virtual
court
appearance
is
going
to
occur
rather
than
being
able
to
talk
to
them
in
the
courtroom.
O
We
have
to
go
to
the
jail
before
explain
to
them.
What's
going
to
happen,
they
then
the
virtual
court
appearance
happens
they're
in
a
room
with
20
other
people
at
the
jail
they
can't
hear.
They
can't
see,
they
don't
know
what's
going
on
so
then
we
have
to
go
afterwards
and
explain
to
them
what
happened.
It
doubles
our
work
when
it
comes
to
client
relationships
and
imagine
you
know
put
yourself
in
this
position
to
a
certain
extent.
O
Imagine
any
legal
case:
you've
got
you're
suing
somebody
you're
the
a
defendant
in
a
civil
suit
or
you're
in
a
criminal
matter,
and
the
court
tells
you
you
are
not
permitted
to
come
to
court.
You
have
to
attend
virtually
you'd
say
no
I
want
to
be
there.
This
is
my
life,
whatever
even
a
minor
civil
case.
You'd
say
that
I
want
to
be
there,
especially
if
the
other
party's
there
and
the
other
judge
is
there.
Well,
that's
not
happening
for
our
incarcerated
clients,
and
so
that's.
O
This
is
something
that
I
encourage
the
legislature
and
this
committee
to
look
into
expanding
virtual
Court
as
an
option,
but
I
would
like
it
to
be
frankly
prohibited
as
a
mandatory
proceeding
for
people
that
are
in
custody,
I
think
if
somebody's
in
custody,
their
Liberty's
at
stake
for
anything
other
than
a
minor
scheduling
hearing,
if
there's
anything
substantive
that
happens,
I
think
they
need
to
be
in
court.
O
Senate
Bill
90
that
came
out
of
this
committee
created
the
behavioral
health
conditional
dismissal
program.
This
is
being
rolled
out
across
the
state.
Many
of
you
are
involved
in
this,
but
some
may
not
be
this.
There
are
11
sites
that
this
is
pilot
sites.
This
is
to
help
people
with
mental
health
or
substance
abuse
issues,
avoid
the
criminal
justice
system
and
and
be
diverted
out
of
the
system.
One
issue
they
found
as
they're
rolling
this
out
is
that
people
have
barriers.
O
O
We
are
because
it's
consistent
with
trying
to
help
our
clients
avoid
conviction,
but
it
it's
kind
of
outside
our
mission,
and
this
goes
somewhat
to
some
of
the
conversations
I've
had
with
chair
Petry
as
far
as
what's
the
purpose
of
the
EPA:
what's
not
the
purpose
of
DPA,
but
this
would
work
for
clients,
and
if
it's
not
us,
it
needs
to
be
somebody.
So
this
is
something
that
we
would
need.
O
O
I've
had
good
conversations
with
most
I
think
a
majority
of
people
on
the
committee,
but
there
are
some
of
you
have
never
had
a
conversation
with
DPA
wants
to
be
a
resource
when
it
comes
to
criminal
law
legislation.
We
certainly
have
a
perspective,
but
but
I
hope
you,
you
understand
that
we
want
to
provide
accurate
information
and
if,
if
I
know,
a
natural
thing
to
do
when
a
criminal
law
bill
is
filed
is
let's
call
my
Commonwealth
Attorney.
O
One
thing
I
do:
if
you've,
if
you've
heard
my
annual
presentation
for
years
is
I,
do
keep
a
score
card
on
on
ledge
legislation.
A
lot
of
organizations
do
that
our
scorecard
goes
to
how
many,
how
many
statutes
were,
how
many
bills
were
passed
and
how
many
statutes
were
changed
that
either
created
new
crimes,
enhanced
penalties
for
existing
crimes
or
expanded
the
elements
of
existing
crimes
and
I.
Compare
that
to
how
many
crimes
did
you
eliminate?
How
many
crimes
did
you
narrow?
How
many
sentences
did
you
lower
your
scorecard?
This
year
was
26-6.
O
You
created
12
new
crimes,
you
expanded,
10
existing
crimes
and
you
increased
punishment
for
four
existing
crimes.
You
did
eliminate
two
crimes,
the
only
those
were
both
in
House
Bill,
349
related
to
HIV,
which
were
welcome
that
those
crimes
were
eliminated.
I'd
never
represented
anyone
charged
with
those
crimes,
but
but
you
did
get
them
off
the
books.
O
But
when
I
looked
at
it,
I
thought:
okay,
there's
a
sliver
there
that
that
that
punishment
went
down
I
promise
not
to
make
say
that
Beyond
today
that
you
did
something
in
the
incest
statute
that
would
decrease
punishment,
but
but
overall
the
scorecard
26-6
I
say
this
just
to
say,
as
we
have
discussions
about
over
incarceration
or
expanded
reach
of
the
Criminal
Justice
System,
we
talk
a
lot
about
Criminal,
Justice
Reform,
but
every
year
we
go
in
the
other
direction.
O
So
our
priorities
for
the
next
year
nonetheless
should
be
a
surprise,
targeted,
PFO
improvements.
I
think
our
PFO
statute
is
too
broad
and
too
severe.
I
also
think
we
should
continue
the
conversation
on
pre-trial
release,
reform
and
a
comprehensive
sentencing
perspective.
All
I
mean
on
that
is
we
pass
all
these
different
laws,
but
we
don't
give
thought
to
how
they
work
together
and
there
was
a
bill.
O
It
was
The
Hazing
statute
that
one
of
the
new
crimes
committed
was
The,
Hazing
Bill
and
that
had
language
in
it
that
I
think
we
had
recommended
and
if
we
didn't,
we
certainly
supported
it.
That
said,
if,
if
this
person
is
also
charged
with
wanting
endangerment,
then
the
and
hazing
they
have
to
run
concurrently,
because
there
are
two
two
ways
of
saying
the
same
thing
and
they
shouldn't
double
the
penalty.
O
That's
the
kind
of
view
perspective
that
I
would
like
us
to
have
more
conversation
about
on
how
the
stacking
of
penalties
creates
undue
leverage
and
eliminates
the
a
reasonable
opportunity
for
trial,
so
that
that's
what
I
mean
by
comprehensive
sentences.
Think
about
how
these
work
together
and
let's
come
up
with
some
some
limits
on
how
many
different
crimes
can
be
stacked.
I.
Believe
that's!
Well,
that's
that's
the
conclusion
of
the
information,
but
I
want
to
end
by
just
saying
we
are
making
a
difference
in
your
communities.
O
We
are
representing
real
people
and
and
providing
real
relief,
even
when
somebody's
convicted
we're
providing
services
that
make
the
system
fair.
That
make
sure
somebody
has
an
adequate
opportunity
for
their
voice
to
be
heard
in
court
and
I
think
that's
important
real
quickly.
O
This,
my
wife,
is
the
executive
director
of
Habitat
for
Humanity
in
in
Scott
County,
and
she
told
me
of
a
person
that
called
her
a
couple
years
ago.
They
used
to
run
a
restore
that
you
know
used
furniture
and
things,
and
somebody
called
my
wife
a
few
years
ago
and
said:
I've
got
some
furniture
I
want
to
donate,
it's
a
little
beat
up,
but
it's
good
enough
for
a
poor
person,
and
my
wife
told
me
that
that
of
this
phone
conversation,
I
I
mean
I'm,
certainly
offended
by
the
concept.
O
But
then
I
thought:
how
does
that
relate
to
the
public
defender
system?
We
can
have
a
view
of
the
public
defender
system
that
we
say,
let's
just
make
sure
it's
good
enough
for
a
poor
person,
or
we
can
have
a
view
that
poor
people
in
the
Commonwealth
deserve
a
quality
defense.
They
don't
need.
You
know,
I
put
a
good
I,
don't
know
if
that's
Ikea
or.
B
O
Put
a
good
functional
piece
of
furniture
there
that
you
know
nobody's
asking
for
luxury,
but
we
need
a
fully
functioning
adequate
defense
for
even
poor
people
in
the
state
and
and
I
think.
If,
if,
if
you
or
I
were
charged
and
we
would
hire
the
best
lawyer,
we
could
afford
I
think
I.
Think
poor
people
should
have
a
good,
competent
defense
and
that's
what
I'm
asking
for
today.
So
thank
you
for
your
time
and
I'm
happy
to
answer
any
questions.
A
A
Anything
and
what
level
of
participation
or
what
level
of
promotion,
I
guess
I
should
say,
does
DPA
use
in
trying
to
make
folks
aware
of
that
who
might
potentially
be
good
public
defenders.
P
We
do
we
do
use
that
we
do
try
to
make
everyone
aware
that
has
student
loans
and
who
doesn't
have
student
loans
that
that
program
is
out.
There
I
think
the
the
program
as
I
understand.
It
is
if
you
work
in
public
service
for
10
years,
and
you
make
your
payments
at
the
end.
Your
balance
is
Forgiven,
regardless
of
how
big
it
is.
We
have
a
proposal
that
we
would
like
to
expand
it
and
help
assist
in
pain,
student
loans,
while
they're
in
that
payment
process.
P
The
the
problem
is
that
there
are
no
programs
out
there
that
are
public
defender
only
and
that
doesn't
help
us
when
it
comes
to
losing
to
prosecutors
or
losing
to
other
Public
Service
jobs,
because
you
know
they
that
becomes
a
wash.
So
really
it
becomes
about
the
salary
or
it
becomes
about
the
you
know,
the
workloads
or
or
some
other
Factor.
We
would
like
to
have
something
exclusive
to
DPA
that
allows
us
to
do
a
sort
of
a
reimbursement
up
to
a
certain
amount
for
a
certain
period
of
time.
P
P
We
don't
want
to
be
onerous,
but
someone
who
participates
in
the
program
we'd
want
to
work
with
us
for
two
or
three
years,
and
you
know
the
one
of
the
problems
that
we
have
is
you
know
we
can't
stop
another
employer
from
saying
okay,
you
know
we'll
pay
that
claw
back
for
you,
but
we
do
want
to
have
something
that
we
can
look
at
and
say
I'm
having
to
make
these
payments
now
DPA
is
helping
me
make
those
payments
I
like
DPA
I
want
to
stay
there,
that's
what
we're
trying
to
come
up
with
and
you'll
see
that
proposal.
A
I
look
forward
to
seeing
that
what
is
the
average
contract
amount
for
a
private
attorney
I
know
you
had
you
had
mentioned
that
as
being
an
issue,
sometimes
with
your
attorneys
who
say:
I'll
just
go
out
into
private
practice
and
continue
to
do
this
work
without
having
a
300
plus
caseload.
Do
you
have
a
number
on
that
yeah.
O
We
have
so
there
are
two
types
of
contracts
we
enter
into
conflict
contracts,
which
are
basically
a
per
case
contract,
and
then
we
have
what
what
we
call
Court
plans,
which
is
we
don't
have
somebody
to
cover
an
entire
docket,
and
so
we
contract
with
a
with
an
attorney
to
cover
a
docket,
the
conflict
contracts.
We
the
standard
contract,
would
be
five
thousand
dollars
and
we
have
a
a
schedule
by
which,
depending
on
how
serious
the
crime
is,
how
much
of
that
5000
it
eats
up.
O
So
so,
if
you
take
a
a
class,
I
think
B
felony,
maybe
eight
hundred
dollars
towards
that
five
thousand
dollar
contract,
whereas
a
Class
D
would
be
I,
think
500.
So
any
of
the
lawyers
here,
if
you've
taken
the
class
B
for
800,
you
know
that
that's
very
low,
but
still
more
than
we're
once
you
aggregate
it
that's
more
than
we're
paying
our
our
attorneys.
So
it's
certainly
not
that
the
private
attorneys
are
getting
rich
off
of
us,
but
they
are
getting
more
than
we're.
O
Getting
then
we're
paying
our
attorneys,
but
that's
the
standard
contract,
and
so
once
you
exhaust
that
5000,
we
enter
into
another
five
thousand
dollar
contract
and
keep
going
like
that
for
conflicts
and
then
for
the
court
plans.
It
would
be.
It
varies
on
how
whether
this
is
one
of
those
all-day
dockets
or
whether
this
is
just
a
morning.
O
The
standard
one
that
I
see
tends
to
be
about
four
thousand
dollars
a
month
to
handle
a
specific
day
and
dock
it.
So
if
you
handle
Tuesday
district
court
for
all
the
Tuesdays
of
the
month,
that
would
be
about
four
thousand
dollars
for
them.
A
O
Had
run
the
numbers
prior
to
our
last
budget
presentation
and
at
that
time
it
had
dropped
from
it
had
been
at
one
time,
eight
years
it
dropped
to
six,
and
then
it
was
under
five
I.
Think
at
the
last
time
we
we
did
the
presentation
and
keep
in
mind
that
we've
still
got
some
tier
one
people
around
like
me
and
Scott,
and
so
so
we've
got
some
excuse
me.
Some
20s
and
25s
figured
into
that.
O
If
you
only
look
at
people
we've
hired
within,
if
we
just
say
tier
three,
if
we've
only
looked
at
tier
three,
it's
it's
frighteningly,
low,
I,
think
I.
Think
it's
probably
three
years
and
and
the
reason
that's
frightening
is
we
still
have
murder
cases
and
we
still
have
complex
rape
cases
and
things
that
come
in
and
somebody
with
two
years
of
experience
just
can't
handle
those
cases.
So
we
we
have
once
all
the
tier
one
people
retire.
O
We're
gonna
have
a
problem
with
having
enough
attorneys
that
have
the
experience
to
handle
those
really
complex
cases.
Well,.
R
R
Just
one
comment
and
two
short
questions:
Mr
chairman,
please,
sir,
your
scorecard
is
going
to
get
a
whole
lot
more
lopsided.
If
I
have
anything
to
say
about
it,
because
five
years
ago,
I
was
ready
to
get
on
board
with
criminal
reform,
but
man
I,
don't
know
if
it
was
covet
or
what
happened.
R
Maybe
it
was
the
governor
releasing
all
these
criminals,
but
crime
in
my
district
is
is
bad
and
we're
sick
of
it,
and
we
want
your
clients
when,
if
they
get
a
plead
bargain
or
a
and
if,
if,
if
they
get
acquitted,
that's
great,
but
if
they're
get
a
plea,
bargain
or
convicted,
please
tell
them
to
set
their
pat
their
life
on
a
right
path.
So
they
don't
keep
repeating
this
stuff.
R
I
hope
so
because
we're
about
had
it
with
crime
in
Louisville
the
two
questions,
sir
one
now
that
was
my
opinion.
Now
your
opinion
was
that
the
virtual
operations
you
don't
like
them
is
that
just
your
opinion,
are
you
carrying
the
weight
of
your
organization
with
that?
Was
that
in
your
legislative
priorities,
that
you
don't
want
the?
What
was
it
the
virtual.
R
O
So
I
appreciate
the
question
so
I'm
I'm
the
commissioner
of
the
of
DPA,
so
my
opinion
is
the
DPA
position.
This
is
I
am
stating
that
our
position
as
an
agency
is
the
virtual.
R
O
That
but
I
do
appreciate
the
question
about
constitutionality
we
have
not.
As
of
yet
we
have
been
cooperating
through
covid.
O
We
cooperated
for
health
reasons
to
make
sure
everybody
was
safe,
but
there
are
legal
challenges
we
could
make
that
we
have
not
made
yet
as
far
as
a
right
to
participate
meaningfully
in
the
court
system
when
it
comes
and
and
that's
going
to
go
to
the
the
complexity
of
the
hearing,
because
every
defendant,
all
of
us
have
a
right
to
be
present
for
court,
and
so
it's
a
question
of
is
being
on
is
attending
virtually
present
for
court
and
when
courts
get
into
holding.
R
Is
that's
all
I
really
wanted
to
know
yeah,
okay,
the
second
one
is:
do
you
recruit
in
Kentucky,
because
some
of
the
rural
counties
are
saying
that
you're
making
bad
fits
for
for
for
folks
that
you
guys
put
out
there
public
defenders
in
some
rural
areas?
They're,
not
good
fits.
O
It's
a
good
question,
representative,
brecher
and
I
appreciate
it.
I
had
a
slide
yesterday
that
showed
56
percent
of
our
lawyers
are
Kentucky
are
from
the
three
Kentucky
law
schools
44
percent
are
from
outside
Kentucky.
Our
our
primary
recruiting
is
is
in
State
simply
because
it's
easy.
We
have
clinics
Kentucky
instance,
project
and
criminal
defense
clinics
at
all
three
law
schools
we
have
in
summer
internships
that
are
primarily
filled
with
Kentucky
law
students.
O
The
fact
is,
the
three
Kentucky
law
students,
law,
schools,
don't
produce
enough
graduates
who
are
interested
in
public
defender,
work
to
fill
our
positions
and
with
the
level
of
turnover
we
have.
We
have
to
recruit
nationally,
so
we
do
recruit
nationally
and
we
do
the
best
we
can
to
fifth.
But
right
now
we've
got
30
vacancies.
We
simply
can't
fill
so
trying
to
find
the
perfect
fit
is
not
a
luxury.
We
have
right
now.
O
If
I've
got
a
body,
that's
willing
to
work
in
the
state
in
a
county
and
that
person's
qualified
and
has
a
license
right
now,
I've
got
to
hope
they
fit.
But
if
they
don't
those
clients
still
need
a
lawyer.
So
I
we
do
the
best
we
can
and
if
a
perfect
fit
is
something
I
certainly
hope
happens.
But
I
don't
have
the
luxury
of
being
picky
right
now.
I.
L
Thank
you,
question
I
should
have
asked
yesterday,
but
so
I'll
ask
it
today
the
435
dollars
per
case.
What
goes
into
determining
that
as
that
based
upon
the
entirety
of
all
staff
or
just
attorney
staff,
if
you
could
expand
on
what
all
goes
into
that
as
that
broken
down,
does
that
include
all
sorts
of
cases,
felonies
misdemeanors,
any
sort
of
contempt
or
Family
Court
representation
on
status,
offenders
or
any
juvenile
yep.
O
So
so
it's
it's
cost
per
case.
So
the
second
part
of
your
question
goes
to
the
case
part
and
that's
the
easy
one
that
includes
all
cases
in
the
trial
division.
Not
post-trial,
not
appeals,
not
post-conviction
in
the
trial
division.
All
cases,
so
everything
you
mentioned
would
be
included
in
the
case
part
as
far
as
the
cost
part,
that's
the
cost
of
the
trial
division,
not
the
entire
agency.
So
it's
the
cost
of
all
our
rents,
all
our
Personnel,
yes
attorney
and
non-attorney.
O
All
all
employees
who
are
within
our
trial,
Division
and
all
costs
of
our
trial
division
offices,
so
excluded
would
be
post-trial,
protection,
advocacy
and
our
operations,
which
is
our
central
office
expenses.
So
that's
how
we
get
it
top
of
the
top
of
the
fractions,
all
trial,
division,
expenses,
bottom
of
the
fractions,
all
trial,
division
cases.
L
O
J
Thank
you,
Mr
chair,
thank
you
for
your
presentation,
always
interesting
to
hear
from
you
and
I.
Don't
want
to
belabor
the
point
on
on
Virtual
hearings,
but
you
know
we're
hearing
that
it's
problematic
that
you
know
for
our
public
defenders
to
have
to
travel
all
day
to
to
represent
someone
I
I,
guess
in
in
underserved
area
of
some
sort
and
I
I
know
that
there
are
all
kinds
of
variables.
J
You
know
in
terms
of
the
complexity
of
cases,
and
you
know
we,
we
have
this
diminishing
pool
of
potential
lawyers,
but
help
me
understand
the
placement
of
the
public
defenders.
It
sounds
like
you're
trying
to
place
folks
in
underserved
areas
and
I.
You
know
I
guess.
My
question
is:
when
we
look
at
you
know
kind
of
increasing
funding
and
maybe
looking
at
I,
don't
know
if
it's
loan
forgiveness
programs
or
what
we're
really
talking
about,
but
in
the
Health
Care
system.
J
When
we're
you
know
looking
for
improving
health
care
workers
in
a
in
an
underserved
area,
we
contractually
bind
individuals
to
to
work
in
those
areas.
So
it
sounds
like
we
I,
don't
know.
Just
don't
have
the
individuals
in
these
underserved
areas
are
they?
Are
they
bound
to
to
work
in
these
areas
once
they
receive
the
benefit
of
a
loan
forgiveness
from
DPA.
O
So
I
would
say
so
understand.
You've
used
the
phrase
underserved
areas,
one
of
those
strange
things-
and
this
is
a
longer
conversation
I'd,
be
that
I
would
welcome
with
you
is
that
what
you
might
think
is
an
underserved
area
is
not
always
underserved,
so
Pikeville
Prestonsburg
those
offices
there
have
been
times
and
now
maybe
one
of
those
times
when
we
haven't
had
Staffing
challenges
at
those
places.
O
A
C
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman,
a
couple
of
questions.
The
the
lawyer
I
just
sit
here
and
figured
it
out.
You've
got
156
000.
You
would
be
paying
a
minimum
of
just
lawyers
that
would
be
in
Louisville.
Have
you
all
done
any
analysis?
C
O
We
do
that
some
Senator,
we
as
I
said
we
have
court
plans
and
we
we
have
some
counties
that
are
we're
we're
Contracting
with
private
attorneys.
So
we
do
that
some,
our
our
belief,
is
the
most
efficient
system
is
a
full-time
public
defender
system.
O
We
had
private
attorney
contracts,
you
know
40
years
ago
that
was
the
system
and
you
were
practicing,
then
you,
you
remember
that
their
their
benefits
and
certainly
benefits.
If
the
lawyer
is
good,
not
all
lawyers
were
equally
set,
and
so
the
benefit
of
a
full-time
public
defender
system
is
the
accountability,
the
oversight
and
the
consistency
of
it.
But
you're
you're,
absolutely
right.
When
we,
when
our
Harlan
office
is
down
two
three
lawyers,
we
need
some
private
attorneys
to
help
us
out
and
and
the
efficiencies
are
there.
C
G
C
C
And
I've
been
sitting
in
the
courtroom,
not
in
my
County
another
courtroom,
where
a
felony
guy
pleading
to
a
fail
named
wanted
to
ask
his
lawyer
something,
but
you've
got
him
sitting
there
with
some
bailiff
in
a
jail
and
the
judge
and
them
won't
get
and
I
do
believe.
That's
very
unconstitutional
for
that
aspect.
I
would
agree
that
for
motions
similar
things
and
would
be
agreeable
to
draft
a
bill
that
would
require
that,
because
I
do
believe
I've
seen
too
much
of
it.
C
I
take
take
care
of
Louisville,
but
in
the
rural
area
I've
been
approached
by
numbers
of
lawyers,
saying
please
try
to
get
that
done,
because
we
would
take
the
cases
and,
let's
much
lesser,
because
they
need
the
business
public
needs
a
service
and
they're
going
to
do
service.
So
please
look
at
that.
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman,
thank
you
Senator.
Thank
you.
Senator.
S
Thank
you,
Mr,
chair,
I'm,
speaking
as
an
attorney
that
has
her
own
practice,
small
in
Northern
Kentucky,
but
I'm.
Also
the
mother
of
a
law
student
that
just
completed
his
first
year
and
it's
going
so.
The
big
firms
start
recruiting
immediately.
I
know
what
those
salaries
are.
I
know
what
I'm
able
to
pay
I
know
what
our
Commonwealth
Attorney
is
also
able
to
pay,
which
is
very
similar
to
what
you've
testified
to
today.
It's
hard
to
compete
with
Cincinnati.
S
The
hourly
rates
are
higher
over
there.
I
can't
pay
a
young
attorney.
What
a
Cincinnati
firm
can
pay
so
I'll
start
with.
Nobody
ever
wants
to
pay
their
lawyer
and
I.
Think
it's
placing
a
value
on
the
service
that
attorneys
offer,
whether
it's
the
Commonwealth
Attorney,
whether
it's
the
public
defender
or
private,
attorneys,
it's
placing
a
value
on
it,
and
so
it's
more
of
a
statement
that
we
need
to
put
more
value
on
the
services
that
attorneys
are
offering
and
we're
the
butt
of
a
lot
of
jokes.
S
But
at
the
end
of
the
day
we
provide
a
service
that
should
be
fairly
compensated.
So
all
around
I
I
think
that
the
salaries
feel
very
low
and
I
know
that
we
cannot
fill
our
positions
in
Northern
Kentucky
because
of
the
competition
that
we
have
I
think.
My
second
comment
is
on
Virtual
hearings.
As
a
domestic
attorney,
we
still
do
a
lot
of
Zoom
I,
find
it
very
difficult
to
communicate
with
clients
during
covet
I
had
a
six
day,
custody
trial,
very
difficult
to
text.
I,
don't
necessarily
want
everybody
to
have
my
cell
phone
number.
S
If
you
have
something
private,
you
want
to
say
sometimes
just
putting
your
hand
on
somebody's
lap
to
tell
them
to
be
quiet
is
a
whole
lot
better
than
trying
to
text
them
to
stop
talking
so
I
agree,
I
mean
on
certain
things
for
sure
you
know
arraignments
and
those
things,
but
I
agree
that
being
back
in
the
courtroom,
I
think
is
important.
So
thank
you.
Thank.
L
One
thing
I've
noticed
in
practicing
law:
there
seems
to
be
a
very
big
disparity
and
how
sometimes
I
think
particular
district
court
judges
May
appoint
the
public
defender
on
a
lot
of
cases,
maybe
the
ones
they
shouldn't.
What
what
could
we
do
to
maybe
prevent
the
accused
those
persons
who
aren't
Indigent
or
who
could
pay
something
to
I,
guess
kind
of
curb
that
practice
of
just
appointing
the
DPA
to
just
about
all
the
defendants?
O
This
has
been
a
conversation
for
many
years
representative,
flanner
you're,
exactly
right
there.
There
are
courtrooms
where
DPA
essentially
is
appointed
ever
case
and
and
it
happened
so
early
and
with
such
little
analysis
that
the
the
person
before
the
court
never
even
thinks
about
hiring
a
private
attorney,
because
it's
just
Express
train
to
DPA.
We
are
not
fans
of
that
any
more
than
than
the
private
bar
are
because
that
overloads
our
lawyers.
O
That
could
be
spending
their
time
on
other
things,
but
it
happens
from
place
to
place,
and
so,
as
far
as
a
legislative
fix,
it's
tough.
The
language
is
good
in
chapter
31,
for
the
review
that
judges
are
supposed
to
do,
there
are
costs
they
can
assess.
If
someone
is,
is
you
know
kind
of
indigent
that
they
can't
afford
you,
but
they,
but
they
have
a
little
bit
of
money.
There
are
fees
that
can
be
assessed,
so
I
think
it's
just
something
that
needs
to
be
changed
from
from
court
to
court.
O
I
would
say
talk
to
your
local
judges
in
your
area,
because
some
of
you
probably
have
judges
in
your
area
that
that
are
that,
but
Mr
chairman.
This
is
actually
a
good
thing
to
end
on,
because
it
goes
to
the
first
thing
I
said,
which
is
public
defenders
are
essential
to
the
system
and
in
many
courtrooms,
we're
just
part
of
the
efficiency
and
it's
more
efficient
to
appoint
us
than
to
say
come
back
next
week
with
a
lawyer.
O
That's
not
the
way
it's
designed
and
if
we
can
address
this
issue,
that
would
give
us
more
time
to
do
other
things,
but
we're
happy
to
serve
as
as
best
we
can
and
that's
the
other
thing
here
is.
We
want
to
serve
the
Commonwealth.
We
want
to
serve
you
all
and
the
public
and
so
the
better.
We
could
do
it,
the
better
we
were
able
to
serve
and
and
if
we
could
limit
our
cases
in
that
way,
that
would
help
us
thank.
A
You,
gentlemen,
for
a
nice
discussion
this
morning
and
appreciate
your
presentation.
We
will
move
to
our
last
item,
which
is
privacy,
protection,
representative,
Hodgson,
representative
Blanton,
representative
grossberg.
If
you
would
come
to
the
table
and
and
introduce
yourselves
for
the
record
and
then
you
can
proceed.
Thank
you.
Q
All
right,
thank
you.
Thank
you.
Mr
chairman
John,
Hodgson,
State,
Rep
36,
my
colleagues,
representative,
Blanton
and
grossberg,
we're
here
to
talk
about
Electronic,
Privacy
privacy
from
electronic
surveillance.
Q
I'll
get
this
a
little
closer
I
may
be
too
tall
for
the
microphone.
Privacy
from
electronic
surveillance
is
a
rapidly
evolving
issue,
so
much
so
that
it's
challenging
for
legislatures
to
stay
ahead
of
it.
This
bill
covers
four
types
of
emerging
technology
and
we
may
well
add
a
couple
more
before
the
session
starts,
but
we
want
to
start
the
discussion
over
the
with
the
interim
joint
committee
this
summer.
This
bill
is
a
bipartisan
team
effort.
It's
widely
supported
by
the
public.
Q
Nobody
really
wants
the
government
or
their
neighbors
spying
on
them,
stealing
your
data
or
tracking
them,
and
that's
the
Genesis
of
this
bill.
It's
been
provided
to
you
for
your
review
of
the
full
text
of
the
bill,
as
well
as
a
review
of
the
public.
We
want
to
begin
digesting
the
information
and
providing
feedback,
so
we
can
avoid
unintended
negative
consequences
of
the
language.
There's
no
secret
Provisions
in
here
no
pride
of
authorship.
We
as
a
group
of
co-sponsors,
just
want
to
see
the
legislation
covering
these
topics
enacted
to
protect
our
citizens.
Q
Most
of
the
built
Concepts
were
gleaned
from
statutes
that
are
in
place
in
other
states
and
tailored
to
fit
within
the
KRS.
The
co-sponsors
will
now
briefly
explain
the
four
main
provisions
of
the
bill.
The
first
one
you've
seen
before
the
late
Lumin
Swann
introduced
to
House
Bill
438.
Last
year
there
was
a
similar
bill
in
the
Senate
that
limited
the
retention
and
sale
of
License
Plate
Reader
data.
The
prime
primary
provision
was
to
limit
that
retention
to
90
days
with
certain
law
enforcement
exceptions
and
to
limit
the
selling
of
that
information
of
private
entities.
Q
I
Thank
you,
representative
John
Blanton,
92nd
District.
So
very
basically,
this
drone
privacy
legislation
is
modeled.
After
what
Florida
has
recently
enacted,
we've
began
to
see
an
increase
in
people.
I
Obviously,
if
you
can
stand
in
a
public
place
and
see
that
wouldn't
apply,
but
to
prevent
them
from
find
these
unmanned
drones
over
top
of
a
person's
private
property
to
protect
their
privacy
rights,
I
mean
last
thing
we
want
is
be
out
with
our
kids
or
grandkids
in
the
backyard
in
a
swimming
pool
and
someone
fly
over
our
home
with
a
drone
because
right
now,
there's
nothing
says
they
can't
and
take
imagery
and
then
put
it
on
the
internet
and
use
it
for
improper
purposes.
So
that's
that's
what
this
bill
does.
T
Thank
you,
I'm
representative
Daniel
grossberg
from
the
30th
District
in
Louisville.
If
it
pleases,
everyone
I'm
actually
going
to
go
out
of
sequence,
because
my
speech
is
written
as
such
and
begin
with
the
AI
speech
in
April
of
2018,
a
journalist
became
the
target
of
an
online
harassment
campaign.
Much
to
her
horror,
sexually
explicit
videos
of
her
were
being
posted
and
shared
all
across
the
internet,
eventually
leading
to
stress-related
health
conditions
and
a
withdrawal
from
public
life.
The
issue
here
was
that
she
was
not
really
in
any
of
the
videos.
T
T
Anyone
with
a
cheap
program
can
create
a
deep
fake
visually
indistinguishable
from
reality,
with
less
than
a
minute
of
audio
and
a
handful
of
pictures,
both
the
Department
of
Homeland
Security
and
the
FBI
have
released
reports
with
dire
warnings
of
how
this
new
technology
may
be
used.
Fraudsters
can
now
mimic
reality
at
a
level
once
thought
impossible.
Online
Predators
can
lure
children
with
realistic
young
avatars.
T
Deep,
fake
pornography
can
be
used
to
harass
women
who
post
on
social
media,
in
fact,
according
to
a
deep,
fake,
Detection,
Agency
AI
up
to
95
percent
of
deep
fake
videos,
posted
online
are
non-consensual
pornography,
virtually
all
targeting
women,
but
defects
can
also
be
used
to
harm
business,
criminal,
Enterprises
criminal
accusations
and
have
political
implications,
as
the
2024
primaries
draw
closer.
That
perception
may
change
possibly
requiring
an
emergency
clause
for
any
relevant
legislation.
T
Realistic
misinformation
campaigns
can
be
produced
for
dirt
cheap
against
any
incumbent
at
any
level.
Using
only
footage
on
KET
live
streams
and
photographs
from
the
legislative
website.
Any
representative
or
Senator
can
be
a
puppet
on
strings
for
Bad
actors.
Even
when
The
Fakes
can
be
spotted.
Their
proliferation
threatens
the
validity
of
all
forms
of
digital
communication.
T
If
anything
you
say
could
be
artificially
generated.
Why
believe
anything
can
a
jury
of
your
peers,
Spot
the
Difference
between
real
and
deep
fake
security,
camera
footage?
Can
scientific
data
be
taken
for
granted
anymore?
What
about
journalism?
What
about
history?
The
culmination
of
the
information
age
has
created
the
greatest
tool
of
deception.
So
far,
two
other
states,
California
and
Virginia-
have
made
the
abuse
of
this
technology.
T
A
crime
Kentucky
should
be
the
next
to
join
them
in
protecting
not
just
the
privacy
and
dignity
of
our
citizens,
but
the
truth
and
democracy
as
well,
and,
finally,
as
for
microchipping,
the
relationship
between
man
and
machine
has
gotten
closer
and
closer
as
we
March
further
into
the
century.
Today
we
are
content
to
carry
super
computers
in
our
pockets.
Many
of
us
on
our
wrists
track
our
location,
our
vitals
and
our
habits
tomorrow.
It
might
be
augmented
or
even
virtual
reality
over
top
our
eyes,
but
some
have
already
taken
the
next
step
with
injected
microchips.
T
Implants
no
larger
than
a
grain
of
rice
are
inserted
in
the
hand
containing
user
data
or
allowing
users
to
unlock
doors
and
use
certain
equipment
still
in
its
infancy.
This
technology
could
expand
to
uses
previously
thought
impossible,
like
any
new
technology
could
also
be
used
for
the
unthinkable
trials
in
Sweden
have
been
around
3
000
individuals
voluntarily
chipping
themselves,
so
they
could
use
their
hands
in
Virtual
wallets.
T
Similar
to
Apple
pay
across
the
world,
smaller
tech
companies
have
a
trial
running
similar
programs
with
limited
success,
but
one
can
imagine
the
widespread
push
for
these
implants
once
the
value
of
the
data
collected
by
them
outweighs
the
cost
of
implementation.
Many
employers
today
require
phone
applications
to
manage
schedules
and
time
cards.
Implanted
microchips
could
merely
mainstream
the
process.
T
The
fact
that
microtripping
has
yet
to
gain
traction
gives
our
legislature
a
unique
opportunity,
unlike
artificial
intelligence
representatives
and
Senators,
can
take
the
time
to
fully
understand
the
technology
and
place
in
their
communities
before
the
issue
spreads
like
wildfire,
first
and
foremost
with
an
advancement
that
has
been
so
invasive
to
the
body
itself.
We
must
take
this
opportunity
to
protect
those
that
do
not
want
microchips
inserted
in
them
for
identification
purposes.
These
concerns
are
not
only
understandable
but
essential
to
maintaining
the
independence
of
the
individual
11.
T
R
So
the
license
plate
portion-
I,
don't
know
about
that
one.
So
can
you
explain
how
what
what's
going
on
with
that.
Q
Okay,
so
there
are
flock
cameras
all
over
the
place
in
Kentucky
that
are
capturing
license,
plate
data
and
it's
very
useful
for
law
enforcement
if
they
have
a
carjacking
car
theft.
You
know
fleeing
suspects
to
find
out
where
those
people
are,
but
there
are
lots
of
people
who
would
like
to
have
that
license.
Q
Plate
data,
private
users
right
now,
I,
don't
believe
that
there's
a
law
that
prevents
the
government
entities
that
own
those
flock
cameras
from
selling
that
License
Plate
Reader,
let's
say
to
a
car,
Repo
Company,
but
marketing
people
as
well,
and
that
data
on
your
license
plate
is
essentially
giving
away
your
position.
So
it
limits
the
retention
of
that
to
90
days
unless
it's
being
used
for
some
lengthier
law
enforcement
purpose.
Q
R
A
T
K
T
Don't
think
that
we
have
the
authority
to
refuse
it
here.
Others
May
disagree
with
me,
but
I
think
that
will
be
disputed
and
litigated
at
the
federal
level.
But
if
you
wanted
to
include
a
provision
that
Kentucky
state
employees
could
not
be
mandated,
I
would
be
amenable
and
I
presume
my
colleagues
would
be
amenable
to
that
as
well,
but
I
respectfully,
don't
think
we
have
the
authority
to
tell
the
federal
government
that
they
can't
do
it.
A
Sure
do
you
have
any
any
other
comments
or
discussion
this
morning
it
looks
like
we,
we
don't.
Q
Q
Q
Well,
they
now
have
trackers
that
you
can
drop
into
somebody's
coat
pocket
and
monitor
their
location,
so
we're
looking
at
possibly
adding
something
along
those
lines
we
passed
a
bill
last
year
to
say
you
can't
track
somebody's
vehicle,
so
it
should
just
be
adding
a
clause
saying
you
can't
put
a
tracker
on
their
person
either
and
that
technology
is
also
getting
as
small
as
a
grain
of
rice.
It's
kind
of
scary,
well,.
T
I
may
Mr
chairman
I,
just
want
to
acknowledge
my
college
intern
from
the
last
session
John
Campbell
John.
Would
you
stand
real
quickly?
He
he
helped
me
tremendously
on
my
portion.
I
wish
I
could
give
him
more
credit
than
that,
but
I
can't
speak
to
the
other
portions,
but
I
just
wanted
to
acknowledge.
D
Thank
you,
Mr
chair
I'd,
just
like
to
recognize
my
guest
Jessica,
who
is
visiting
us
here
from
Lexington.
She
is
going
to
be
a
senior
in
high
school,
very
interested
in
our
government
and
being
engaged
civically,
so
we're
very
happy
to
see
her.
Thank
you.
A
Great
and
I
want
to
recognize
Robert
Wright,
who
is
a
new
staff
member
on
our
committee
and
thank
you
for
being
here
Robert.
We
look
forward
to
your
work
and
thank
you,
gentlemen,
for
your
presentation.
This
is
very
timely
and
very
informative,
I
think
so.
Do
we
have
a
meeting
date?
What's
our
next
meeting
day.