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A
Ask
the
members
to
take
their
seats.
We
want
to
welcome
everyone
to
this
that
to
this
meeting.
It
seems
like
we're
only
here
a
couple
weeks
ago
and
we
were
actually
here
a
couple
weeks
ago
for
our
for
our
last
meeting
a
couple
things
today.
We
I
think
at
one
point
we
one
of
the
Committees
that
might
have
been
experiencing
some
difficulty
with
the
mics,
but
I
think
we're
working
now.
A
But
if
not,
we
do
have
one
over
here
that
we
staff
will
get
around
to
you
to
make
sure
that
you
can
be
heard
and
we
do
need
to
have
used
mics
to
make
sure
it
comes
through.
On
the
the
taping
of
the
meeting
before
I
call
a
meeting
I
have
a
member
that
wants
to
introduce
some
guest
Senator
Smith
I
mean
representative
Smith.
Oh.
B
D
E
A
A
We
do
have
a
quorum,
so
we're
duly
constituted
to
do
business.
We
only
have
one
item
on
the
agenda
today.
I
know
that
when
several
members
have
to
leave
to
make
some
other
meetings,
so
we
will
ask
for
a
motion
to
approve
the
minutes,
since
we
do
have
a
quorum,
okay,
motions
and,
and
a
second
all
in
favor
signify
by
saying
aye
Auto
post,
but
like
sign
okay,
the
minutes
do
stand
to
prove
this
as
submitted.
A
What
we're
going
to
do
today
is
is
hear
a
presentation
from
members
of
pjm.
That's
one
of
our
service
grid
operators
in
in
Kentucky,
and
so
at
this
time,
I
would
like
to
ask
them
to
come
forward
to
introduce
themselves
and
welcome
and
I
know.
You
came
a
long
ways
and
we're
we're
honored
to
have
you
here
today.
F
Chairman
Gooch
and
members
of
the
natural
resources
and
energy
committee
good
afternoon,
thank
you
very
much
for
the
invitation
to
be
here.
We
sincerely
appreciate
it.
We
are
from
pjm
interconnection.
We
are
the
regional
grid
operator
for
13
states
and
the
District
of
Columbia,
including
about
half
of
Kentucky,
so
the
transmission
owners
that
are
within
the
pjm
footprint
are
Eastern,
Kentucky,
Power,
Cooperative,
Duke,
Kentucky
and
aep's
Kentucky
Power,
and
so
we
are
very
again
honored
to
be
here.
Thank
you
for
the
invitation.
F
So
the
generation
of
a
watt,
the
transmission
of
that
Watt
and
then
the
distribution
of
that
watt
to
homes,
businesses,
we
pjm
interconnection
and
grid
operators
like
us,
there
are
nine
of
Us
in
North
America.
We
are
the
grid
operator
on
the
generation
side,
as
well
as
the
transmission
side,
and
so
the
distribution
component,
generally
speaking,
will
be
regulated
locally,
typically
by
state
commissions,
both
rates
safety
and
reliability,
but
we
exist
on
What's
called
the
bulk
Electric
System
generation
and
transmission
of
Watts.
F
Our
primary
focus
is
the
concept
of
reliability,
making
sure
that
across
the
bulk,
Electric
System
that
power
is
generated
and
transmitted,
and
that
we
maintain
reliability
very
simple.
When
consumers
flip
the
switch
the
lights
come
on,
when
the
manufacturer
is
running
their
manufacturing
line,
the
lights
stay
on
no
matter
how
challenging
the
circumstances.
Reliability
is
our
core
Mission.
We
do
that
through
Three
core
business
functions,
we
do
it
through
operations
and
operations
is
effectively
and
we'll
go
to
the
next
slide.
Actually,
because
I
think
the
visuals
are
better
here.
F
F
F
We
do
it
through
our
planning
function,
again:
preserving
reliability
through
our
planning
function
and
through
our
planning
function.
You
know
we
are
taking
a
long-term
Outlook
at
the
grid
and
saying
hey:
where
do
we
need
to
create
transmission
in
order
to
ensure
that
these
Watts
will
continue
to
be
delivered
reliably
from
point
A
to
point
B?
F
F
A
utility
does
not
go
to
the
commission
to
ask
to
construct
a
generator
and
they
don't
see,
receive
regulated
returns
effectively.
That
is
all
markets
driven
and
we
have
about
half
of
our
jurisdictions
that
still
have
a
vertically
integrated
utilities
or
building
generation
and
those
generation
plans
are
effectively
approved
by
apse.
So
we've
got
both
in
our
footprint,
but
we
do
have
markets
because
the
goal
is
to
try
and
drive
down
cost
for
consumers,
so
reliability
in
and
of
itself
is
you
know
a
in
in
the
way.
F
A
Sure,
certainly,
but
let
me
ask.
A
The
the
the
states
that
allow
utilities
to
build
their
own
generation,
or
whatever,
are
those
deregulated
States.
What
we
used
to
refer
to
as
deregulated.
A
Are
those
what
we
call
deregulated
states
where
they're
not
really
if
they
don't
have
to
go
to
PSC
they're,
not
operating.
F
F
You
know
something
that
we
are
being
very
vocal
about
and
that's
trying
to
maintain
reliability
during
a
the
early
stages
of
an
energy
transition.
So
this
is
pjm's
existing
installed
capacity.
It's
basically
the
resources
that
exist
on
pjm
system
to
conceivably,
provide
Power
to
Consumers
you'll,
see,
we've
got
a
mix
of
natural
gas
of
coal
of
nuclear
and
we've
got
a
growing
number
of
renewable
resources
still
less
than
roughly
10
percent
on
the
pjm
system.
F
But
then,
if
you
look
at
this
graphic,
you
will
see
that
our
cued
capacity.
So
what
does
that
mean?
What
is
queued
capacity?
It's
basically
the
generation
that
gets
in
line
to
try
and
interconnect
into
the
pjm
system,
see
that
our
queued
capacity,
you
know
largely
consists
of
solar
storage,
wind
and
some
natural
gas.
So
a
lot
of
renewable
resources
trying
to
find
their
way
on
to
the
pjm
system,
and
it's
because
of
what
is
in
our
queue
that
we
believe
that
we
are
in
the
early
stages
of
what
we're
calling
an
energy
transition.
F
But
this
transition
presents
some
we'll
call
them
different.
Reliability,
challenges
and
I
want
to
describe
those
challenges
to
you
all
and
then
talk
to
you
about
what
we
plan
to
do
about
it.
So,
knowing
that
we
are
in
the
early
stages
of
this
energy
transition,
adding
a
significant
chunk
of
generation
that
will
be
part
of
our
fuel
mix
to
the
pjm
system,
we
have
been
studying
this
transition.
We've
been
really
taking
aim
at
studying
this
transition.
F
F
Pieces
of
analysis
that
we
have
put
together.
Happy
to
you
know,
send
you
links
share
these
analyzes
with
you,
we're
going
to
spend
our
time,
focusing
primarily
on
this
middle
analysis,
which
we
affectionately
refer
to
as
the
4r
paper
resource,
retirements,
Replacements
and
risks,
and
what
this
study
effectively
shows
the
4r
paper
resource,
retirements,
Replacements
and
risk
is
that
we
are.
We
are
with
a
the
aggregation
of
some
Trends
and
we're
going
to
talk
about
those
Trends
with
the
aggregation
of
some
trends.
F
We
are
concerned
about
being
in
a
supply
Crunch
at
the
end
of
this
decade.
Now
I
want
just
for
a
second
for
everybody
in
the
room,
because
when
you
hear
that
you
know
probably
there's
some
concern,
but
just
you
know,
sort
of
deep
breath.
Pj
emitter
connection
actually
is
very
well
positioned
today,
okay,
so
recently
the
North
American
Electric
reliability
Corporation.
This
is
an
organization
that
whose
sole
responsibility
as
as
a
scribe
to
it
by
the
federal
government,
their
sole
responsibility,
is
to
evaluate
reliability
of
all
the
grids
in
North
America.
F
F
We
are
not
in
that
highly
elevated
risk
Arena,
and
so
we
have
time,
but
we
don't
have
a
lot
of
time
to
waste,
and
so
what
we're
going
to
tell
you
is
we've
identified
some
concerns
around
reliability
and
we're
going
to
lead
to
try
and
help
solve
those
concerns
we're
going
to
focus
on
one
of
those
concerns
in
particular.
That
is
a
result
of
that
for
our
paper
and
that's
sort
of
the
supply
crunch
that
we
could
see
towards
the
end
of
that
decade.
Here
are
the
trends
that
comprise
that
for
our
paper.
F
The
first
is
this
concept
of
demand.
What's
the
demand
on
the
system
so
you've
got,
you
know
very
basic
fundamentals
of
supply
and
demand,
and,
generally
speaking,
you
want
enough
Supply
to
meet
Demand
with
a
with
a
bit
of
a
reserve
margin.
Okay,
on
the
demand
side,
we
are
expecting
after
some
years
of
relatively
stagnant
growth
in
demand
and
load
and
demand
are
somewhat
synonymous
terms.
After
some
years
of
pretty
stagnant
growth.
F
We
believe
that
on
our
system,
we
are
going
to
experience
some
load
growth
and
that
load
growth
will
be
attributed
primarily
to
this
concept
of
electrification.
There
is
a
movement
towards
electrification
as
well
as
data
center
proliferation.
In
our
footprint,
we've
got
quite
a
few
data
centers
that
have
located
within
our
footprint.
In
fact,
a
huge
concentration
of
data
centers
in
one
particular
County
in
Virginia,
which
are
going
to
again
in
the
aggregate
increase
demand.
F
So
if
you
see
the
gray
there,
what
the
gray
will
represent
to
you
is
that
by
the
end
of
this
decade,
our
forecasted
retirements,
based
primarily
on
policy
considerations
and
some
economics,
we
are
expecting
40
gigawatts
of
hour
of
our
system,
40,
40
gigawatts,
to
be
retired
by
the
end
of
this
decade.
A
A
The
for
the
committee
you,
you
said
that
your
system
is
180
000
megawatts.
F
Yeah,
why
don't
we
call
it
a
185
about
180
gig
gigawatts?
Let's
call
it
180
gigawatts
and
we
expect
for
about
40
gigawatts
and
there's
a
there's
a
difference
here
you
see
the
number
192
GW
you
know
I
want
to
use.
You
know,
there's
differences
between
installed,
there's
differences
between
capacity,
there's
differences
between
energy,
but
let's
just
use
the
number
180
and
then
we
are
forecasting
out
towards
the
end
of
this
decade.
The
loss
of
40
of
those
180
as
a
result
of
again
primarily
policy
and
some
economic
considerations.
F
I
would
say
this
is
a
very
conservative
estimate
actually
and
I
say
that
for
a
couple
of
reasons,
one
because
a
large
coal
plant
in
Pennsylvania
announced
its
retirement,
and
that
was
not
a
unit
that
was
on
our
radar,
and
so
it's
that
you
know
take
that
40
gigawatt
number
and
you
know
add
those
watts
to
that
40.
then
the
other
is
there's
currently
at.
There
is
currently
a
proposed
rule
from
the
federal
EPA
on
ghg
emissions
that
could
also
serve
to
create
sort
of
more
policy.
F
This
is
the
last
Trend
that
I'll
show
you,
which
is
so
so.
Where
are
we
right
now?
Where
are
we
in
the
trend
count
here
so
again,
increased
demand
Supply
being
reduced
because
of
our
forecasted
retirements.
So
then
the
natural
thought
is
well
just
replace
those
Resources
with
new
resources
and
the
predicament
that
we
find
ourselves
in
right
now
is.
We've
got
a
lot
of
again,
primarily
solar,
wind
hybrids,
some
natural
gas
resources
in
our
queue
it's
90
plus
percent,
is
solar,
wind,
hybrid
resource
battery
resource
and
our
new
entry.
F
A
My
I
think
is
part
of
the
reason
that
we're
we're
concerned
about
not
having
enough
replacement
is
that
when
you're
replacing
assets
that
are
base
load
generation
that
are
as
I
say,
85
percent
efficient
have
fuel
sources
on
site
and
you're,
trying
to
replace
those
with
something
that
may
have
an
efficiency
rating
of
18
or
whatever,
that
that
doesn't
generate
all
the
time
like
wind
and
solar.
You
know
if
you're
replacing
a
hundred,
let's
say
a
700
megawatts.
F
Yeah,
it's
a
great
Point.
Let
me
talk
about
that
a
little
bit
and
we'll
then
naturally
go
to
our
far
right
column,
because
I
think
that
in
part
addresses
your
concern
so
the
first
the
first
item
to
discuss
about
sort
of
the
difference
between
the
coal
gas
nuclear
Watts.
We
call
those
thermal
resources
as
sort
of
a
term
of
art.
F
Those
are
thermal
resources,
the
difference
between
those
sort
of
watts
and
Watts
that
are
generated
from
renewable
facilities
that
they
are
it's
worthwhile
to
discuss,
and
the
first
is
that
the
sort
of
capacity
values
will
be
different
for
each
and
you
know
of
all
of
those
Watts
that
we're
talking
about
nuclear
is,
you
know,
has
a
very,
very
high,
we'll
call
them
capacity
value
just
for
Simplicity,
we'll
call
it
capacity
value
and
then,
depending
on
the
coal
asset
and
how
fuel
secure
it
is,
or
the
gas
asset
and
whether
it
has
pipeline
redundancy
or
firm
Contracting.
F
You
know
the
capacity
values
are
all
quite
different
for
these
resources.
Generally
speaking,
you
know
solar
and
wind
are
on
the
low
lower
end
of
those
capacity
values.
So
that's
one
item
to
think
about,
and
we
have
we
are
in
the
process
of.
F
We
actually
have
sort
of
created
this
accreditation
Dynamic,
where,
where
every
resource
should
be
accredited,
it's
maximum,
it
should
be
credited
its
capacity
value
and
what
that,
when
it
participates
within
pjm
and
so
we're
in
the
process
of
sort
of
creating
that
I,
don't
want
to
get
too
down
in
the
weeds
with
that.
But
that's
a
very
good
point,
but
I
also
think
not
only
just
this
sort
of
capacity
value
issue.
F
If
you
look
at
the
far
right,
I
think
another
item
of
note
that
we
just
have
to
take
take
note
of
is
there
is
you
know
the
the
grid?
F
Is
a
machine
and
machines
operate
through
principles
of
science,
physics
in
particular,
there
are,
as
identified
by
the
North
American
Electric
reliability
Corporation.
There
are
certain
physical
properties
of
the
grid
that
currently
thermal
resources
provide,
and
they
are
qualities
like
frequency
inertia,
ramp,
voltage
control.
These
are
all
items
that
again.
This
entity
has
identified
again
tasked
with
maintaining
reliability
by
the
federal
government
that
this
entity
has
identified
or
being
essential
to
maintaining
reliability.
For
the
system,
currently,
this
is
a
study
that
we
did
as
well.
F
You
know
one
message
to
convey:
is
we
can't
simply
shut
down
all
thermal
resources
and
replace
them
with
non-thermal
resources,
because
those
thermal
resources
provide
again
Central
reliability,
Services?
The
sort
of
spinning
Mass
element
of
these
resources
provide
the
necessary
grid
physics
to
allow
for
electrons
to
get
from
point
A
to
point
B.
So
that's
another
just
point
to
make,
which
is
we?
We
have.
You
know
physics
and
physical
differences
between
these
types
of
resources
and
that's
what
the
far
right
item
effectively
conveys,
far
left
item
and
we'll
just
talk
about
it.
F
Very
briefly
is
around
this:
what
happened
during
winter
storm
Elliot
and
during
winter
storm
Elliott
pjm
system?
It's
got
a
diverse
generation
Fleet
with
a
Strong
Reserve
margin.
We
had
enough
Watts.
We
certainly
had
enough
Watts
with
enough
essential
units
with
enough
essential
reliability
services,
but
but
these
units
didn't
perform
and
so
the
way
we
view
our
reliability
concerns
on
a
going
forward
basis.
Is
this
purely
education
for
the
legislature?
F
Do
you
have
enough
resources?
Do
you
have
resource
adequacy,
so
we
need
to
ensure
resource
adequacy.
Then
the
last
bucket
here
on
the
right
is
what
chairman
Gooch
brought
up
in
what
we
talked
about
with
respect
to
having
enough
essential
reliability
services.
Not
all
resources
are
the
same.
Some
resources
provide
these
essential
reliability
Services
right
now.
That's
their
thermal
resources,
nuclear
coal
gas.
F
So
we
need
to
maintain
a
certain
amount
of
essential
reliability,
Services
units
that
provide
essential
reliability
services
and
also
attract
new
right.
We
don't
part
of
what
pjm
is
trying
to
do
is
maintain
reliability,
that's
also
cost
effective.
So
you
know
we
don't
we
aren't
in
the
business
of
keeping
plants
that
are
uneconomical.
You
know
around
in
perpetuity.
We
want
to
create
an
environment
where
innovators,
whether
it's
small
modular
reactors
or
hydrogen,
want
to
come
and
interconnect
into
the
system
to
replace
those
resources.
F
F
F
We
have
spent
a
considerable
amount
of
time,
a
considerable
amount
of
time
analyzing
and
we
are
crafting
Solutions,
and
so
we
have
come
up
with.
You
know
what
we
deemed
to
be
sort
of
16
critical
actions
that
we
plan
to
take
in
order
to
preserve
reliability
and
alleviate
some
of
those
concerns
that
we
referenced
in
the
long
run
and
I
just
wanted
to
direct
your
attention.
F
We
are
in
the
early
early
stages.
Pjm
is
not
in
the
sort
of
Hot
Zone
of
the
heat
map
that
the
North
American
Electric
reliability,
Corporation
pushed
out.
In
fact,
we
had
some
really
hot
weather
in
the
pjm
footprint
last
week
we
were
able
to
navigate
that
very
successfully.
We
were
able
to
in
fact
help
our
neighbors
it's
a
chunk
of
the
footprint
that
is
in
the
Mid-Continent
ISO.
F
We
were
able
to
help
them
and
that's
actually
one
of
the
benefits
of
being
part
of
the
Eastern
interconnect
and
being
part
of
the
RTO
framework,
with
that,
hopefully,
I
was
able
to
articulate
some
of
the
concerns
that
we're
seeing
and
again.
This
is
this:
is
our
our
sort
of
opportunity
to
come
to
you
all
and
say:
let's
talk
about
what
we
do
and
also
talk
about
some
of
the
concerns
that
we
are
seeing
and
tell
you
we
are
here
as
a
resource
should
you
need
anything.
C
I
I
Now,
I've
done
a
little
bit
of
research
and
in
2004
the
average
Kentucky
Power
customer
was
paying
about
74
dollars
a
month
now
they're
paying
about
187.50,
which
is
about
a
250
percent
increase
which
is
I,
understand,
there's
some
inflation
in
there,
but
that's
far
outpaces
inflation
and
now
you
know
they're
seeking
another
18
increase,
so
I
I
guess
what
I'm
trying
to
ask
you
is:
when
are
we
as
consumers
going
to
see
the
benefits
of
these
new
resources
because
it
doesn't
seem
like
they're
they're,
helping
the
middle
class
or
the
people
that
live
in
these
areas?
F
Yeah
and
chair
to
the
senator.
F
The
first
thing
to
sort
of
think
about
or
acknowledge
here
you
know
right
now,
the
in
the
PGM
footprint,
the
Kentucky
split.
You
know
you've
generally
got
you
know:
50
plus
percent
coal
resources,
40,
plus
percent
natural
gas
resources,
so
I
don't
I
have
not
at
least
in
the
pjm
footprint.
We
have
not
seen
many
Renewables
find
their
way
into
the
system
again,
at
least
in
the
pjm
component
of
the
PGM
footprint
in
Kentucky.
I.
F
Think
that
when
we're
talking
about
just
bill
pay,
we
are
very
conscious
of
as
our
member
utilities,
because
part
of
their
mission
also
is
to
try
and
you
know,
deliver
reliable
power
that
is
Affordable
for
consumers.
We,
we
are
very
conscientious
of
this.
We
have
operated
relatively
conservative
in
that
regard.
There
are
you
know,
headlines
across
the
country
related
to
transmission.
Spend
you.
F
I'd
great,
not
I'm,
not
saying
anybody
should
be
grateful
about
anything,
but
I
I
did
want
to
I
did
want
to
point
out.
You
know,
at
least
on
the
at
least
in
the
bulk
Power
Sphere,
on
the
generation
side.
In
the
transmission
side,
you
know
what
we
would
really
control
would
be
transmission.
F
We
are
generally
viewed
as
from
a
regional
planning
perspective,
at
least
nationally
right
now,
as
pretty
conservative,
in
how
much
transmission
from
a
regional
perspective,
we
will
build
in
order
to
sort
of
Advance
through
this
through
this
transition.
Well,.
I
I
think
you
kind
of
bring
up
a
valid
point.
I
guess
a
lot
of
this
transition.
I
mean
a
lot
of
these.
Increases
are
often
blamed
on
fuel
costs
and,
as
you've
shown
on
your
graph,
I
mean
I.
Think
there's
been
a
significant
transition
from
cold
to
natural
gas
and
now
into
other
things
in
the
last
19
years.
So
I
think
the
chairman
of
state
of
many
times
that
when
he
was
a
Youngster,
natural
gas
was
considered
a
precious
resource
that
you
know
you
wouldn't
just
waste
on
on.
I
Generation
how
much
of
this
increase
can
be
related
to
that
and
I
guess?
The
second
part
of
that
question.
If
you're
saying
that
we're
being
conservative
in
our
transition
from
fossils
to
Renewables,
can
we
expect
more
drastic
price
increases
like
what
we've
seen
in
the
next
10
to
15
years?
As
you
take
these
other
resources,
offline,
yeah.
F
Senator
I
think
the
first
point
to
make
about
where
pjm
sits
in
the
whole
sphere
of
what
customers
pay
for
power
is
we
we
have
nothing
to
do
with
distribution
rates
that
the
presumably
the
local
PSC
will
determine
for
every
individual
utility.
F
On
the
generation
side
you
are
also
not
deregulated,
so
we
don't
have
anything
also
to
do
I,
don't
want
to
say
anything
because
there
is
some
Market
in
our
play,
but
we
don't
regulate
the
cost
or
we
don't.
Our
markets
are
not
dictating
the
cost
that
your
consumers
will
pay
for
Generation
either.
So
really
when
you're
talking
about
purely
cost
and
pjm,
primarily
there
again,
there
is
some
interplay
on.
F
On
the
generation
side
and
the
distributions
absolutely
well
I
would
presume
it
is
the
Kentucky
PSC.
I
F
Not
off
the
not
off
the
trends,
not
the
transition
from
fossil
to
Renewables,
but
at
least
for
the
approved
amount
that
can
be
charged
to
Consumers
for
generation
and
distribution.
Yes,.
A
Essentially,
if
I
can
interrupt,
I
think
one
issue
that
we
have
to
maybe
look
at
a
little
harder
here
is
we
we
had
a
fossil
fuel
coal-fired
power
plant
closed
down
and
there
might
have
been
replaced
with
some
natural
gas,
but
but
I
think
a
lot
of
the
generation
was
replaced
by
another
coal-fired
power
plant
in
another
state,
and
we
may
need
to
look
at
how
much
of
this
cost
is
contributed
to
that.
I
I
agree
with
you
Mr
chairman,
but
I
guess,
maybe
as
a
controller
of
the
entire
Grid
in
this
area
of
the
country.
When
is
the
consumer
going
to
see
price
decreases
from
Renewables.
F
Yeah
Senator,
that's
a
great
question.
We
currently
do
not
have
a
significant
proliferation
of
Renewables
in
the
PGM
footprint.
Again
it's
under
10
percent,
and
so
we
we
are
monitoring
and
will
continue
to
monitor
the
price
of
power
as
more
Renewables
find
their
way
into
the
system.
F
There
will
be
different
Dynamics
at
play,
for
instance,
with
renewable
facilities.
You've
got
sort
of
your
initial
Capital
costs,
but
you're
going
forward.
Fuel
costs
are
sunlight
in
the
wind
right,
so
there
there
is
a
reduction
in
what
could
be
pricing
because
there's
no
going
forward
fuel
costs
simultaneously.
There
is
a
cost
associated
with
not
being
able
to
maintain
reliable
power
delivery
and
that's
a
cost
as
well.
There's
a
cost
to
local
economies,
there's
a
cost
to
Regional
economies.
F
If
the
power
system
does
not
if
the
power
system
does
not
deliver
and
we
have
prolonged
brownouts
blackouts
Etc.
So
there
are
a
number
of
different
factors
to
look
at
when
thinking
about
the
integration
of
renewable
resources
onto
the
system
as
it
pertains
to
cost
surely
to
reduce
emissions,
but
on
the
cost
front,
we'll
continue
to
monitor,
monitor
the
integration
of
Renewables
in
its
interplay
sort
of
into
our
Market
sphere.
I
If
you
take
the
government
subsidies
out,
which
some
of
us
argue
is
a
hidden
cost,
is
the
worst
Yet
to
Come
As
far
as
what
the
cost
is
going
to
be
to
Consumers
on
electricity
with
the
additional
closure
of
fossil
plants,
particularly
coal
plants.
In
the
next
decade,
yeah.
F
Senator,
it's
tough
to
tell
with
all
the
variables
it's
tough
to
tell
with
all
the
variables,
but
certainly
something
cost
is
certainly
something
that
we
are
transparent
about,
keep
tabs
on
and
we'll
continue
to
interact
with
you
all
as
to
sort
of
the
trends
that
we
are
seeing,
but
you're
right
I
mean
there
are
significant,
whether
it's
Federal
support
or
state
support
for
particular
facilities,
and
it's
actually
the
case
across
our
footprint.
In
fact,
you
know:
we've
got
in
some
of
our
Direct
in
one
of
our
deregulated
States.
F
We've
got
actually
support
that
is
being
provided
to
a
couple
coal
plants
as
well.
So
it's
not!
It
is
not.
You
know,
outside
of
the
realm
of
the
possible
to
see
some
of
those
sort
of
support
mechanisms
just
beyond
the
renewable
facilities
in
our
Footprints.
F
So
we
see
them
for
nuclear
facilities
as
well,
but
you
are
right,
the
certainly
the
investment
reduction
or
excuse
me,
the
inflation
reduction
act
and
and
and
widely
speaking,
just
generally,
the
primary
sort
of
State
support
that
we
see
you
know
really
across
the
country
is
for
the
build
out
of
Renewables
facilities.
F
How
do
we
value
it?
The
capacity
we
we
ascribe
a
particular
capacity
value
to
each
type
of
renewable
facility
that
effectively
creates
the
here's?
How
much
you
can
obtain
from
that
particular
Marketplace,
and
then
those
renewable
resources
can
participate
in
other
markets
at
pjm
as
well.
We
have
short-term
and
long-term
duration
markets
and
the
sort
of
net
sum
of
those
markets
will
create
the
overall
value
that
the
renewable
facilities
receive.
F
A
Right,
let's
also
not
forget
the
cost
or
the
lack
of
reliability
has
on
public
health
and
safety
as
well
sure
representative,
Blanton.
G
Mr
chairman
sir
I'd
like
to
to
refer
to
slide
11
on
your
forecasted
retirement
capacity.
Yes,
not
I,
don't
know
what
the
2022
announced.
How
much
of
that
is
policy?
G
How
much
is
economic,
but
I
do
see
here
that
policy
is
going
to
be
about
24
of
the
gigawatts
compared
to
maybe
three
and
a
half
or
so
due
to
economic,
and
which
tells
me
that
these
this
loss
of
gigawatts
is
happening
because
of
policy
decisions
which
means
policy
decisions
much
like
they're
making
in
Illinois,
where
they're
pushing
to
go
totally
fossil
fuel
free.
It's
the
shutdown
of
these
plants,
that's
providing
as
your
own
you've
stated,
and
your
own
slides
show
the
majority.
F
Thank
you
for
the
question
we
are.
We
are
concerned
about
that
and
again
I
think
we're
concerned
about
that.
On
sort
of
you
know,
two
different
fronts,
I
think
we're
concerned
about
that.
You
know
in
the
near
term,
with
this
concept
of
just
making
sure
that
we
have
enough
watts
to
power
the
system
and
that's
all
Watts
right
that
includes
renewable
Watts
as
well,
and
that
is
sort
of
a
later
in
this
decade.
Event
that
you
know
again
we're
going
to
lead
to
try
and
solve
that
conundrum.
We've
got
to.
F
You
know
ensure
that,
as
we
are
conducting
our
education,
that
folks
understand
you
know
when
we're
pushing
resources
off
of
the
system,
what
that
means
right
and
that
we
are
doing
what
we
can
to
bring
new
resources
onto
the
system
as
expeditiously
as
possible.
We
just
went
through
a
really
protracted
interconnection
queue
reform
process.
F
You
know
slightly
amended
by
the
ferc
recently
the
Federal
Energy
Regulatory
Commission,
but
you
know
that's
part
of
the
formula
as
well-
and
you
know
this
this
this
when
we're
just
purely
talking
about
thermal
resources
which
are
again
nuclear
coal
and
gas.
I
really
think
that
that
pertains
to
this
upcoming
concern,
which
is
a
this,
is
sort
of
a
to
just
generalize,
forecast
out
and
we're
seeing
as
a
you
know,
mid-2030s
type
of
issue,
where
you
know
will
we
have?
F
Will
we
have
enough
resources
that
are
providing
these
essential
reliability
Services
again
physical
grid
properties
on
the
system,
in
order
to
continue
to
maintain
reliable
power
delivery,
and
that
could
be
the
thermal
resources
that
exist
today
or
some
new
technology
that
we
need
to.
Also,
you
know,
want
to
incent
to
come
onto
the
system
because
of
their
ability
to
support
reliability,
and
so
again
this
is
not.
This
is
not
PGM
interconnection.
Coming
here
saying
you
know
we
need
to
save
this
type
of
unit
or
that
type
of
unit
or
another
type
of
unit.
F
This
is
just
saying
us
saying
here
are
the
physical
properties
that
are
necessary
for
the
grid?
Here
are
the
types
of
units
that
can
provide
them
today
and
there,
hopefully,
will
be
new
additional
technology
G's
that
are
under
development.
Some
of
them
get
a
lot
of
get
a
lot
of
coverage
today
and
I'm
sure
there
are
others
that
are
out
there,
that
we
don't
know
about
that,
but
that
will
also
find
their
way
to
the
system.
Because,
again
you
know
you,
you
also
want
to
try
and
provide.
F
You
also
want
to
provide
this
service
at
a
cost.
That's
affordable
for
consumers
too,
and
so
you
know
there's
this
there's
this.
You
know
we
we
don't
want
to
create
this
Dynamic,
where
there
are
units
that
are
just
have
hit
the
end
of
their
useful
life
as
machines,
and
we
are
effectively
trying
to
sort
of
keep
them
around
in
some
level
of
perpetuity
and
it's
costly
to
maintain
them.
So
that's
you
know.
Attracting
new
resources
to
the
system
is
also
important
to
us
as
well.
Well,.
G
You
can't
sit
here
and
say
it
today,
but
I
will
sit
here
and
say
it
today,
because
I
can-
and
that
is
the
fact
that
these
policies
is,
is
destroying
our
grid,
that
we,
that
is
provided
across
this
country
every
time
they
shut
down
one
of
these
fossil
fuel
plants
and
those
of
us
that
are
awakened
and
see
through
the
smog.
G
We
understand,
that
is
an
attempt
to
shut
down
all
of
our
fossil
fuels,
which
provides
the
most
reliable,
the
cheapest
form
of
energy
that
we
can
provide
to
our
customers
to
to
our
constituents
to
our
citizens
out
there.
So
my
next
question,
along
those
lines
with
with
the
way
that
the
grid
is
set
up
and
the
recklessness
of
some
of
these
states
with
their
policies
trying
to
eliminate
fossil
fuels,
which
just
blows
my
mind,
but
so
what
happens
in
a
peak
time
period?
Let's,
let's
go
back
to
winter,
storm,
Elliott.
G
Sure
in
a
situation
like
that
where
we
have
a
high
demand
for
electricity
because
of
the
cold
and
you're
on
the
grid
and
we've
got
this
area
and
and
we're
providing
a
good
form
of
of
Dependable
reliable
electricity.
Here
in
Kentucky,
but
what
about
these
states
that
aren't
I
know
you
all
sharing
power
across
those
grid.
G
You're
rationing,
Power,
Washer
kentuckians,
be
forced
to
borrow
the
Bride
of
the
poor
decisions,
these
other
states
to
keep
their
lights
on
by
using
brown
outs
and
blackouts
and
those
type
things
when
it's
because
of
their
poor
decisions.
Why
is
it
then
that
kentuckians
should
have
to
bear
the
brunt
of
that.
F
You
know
representative
I,
don't
know
that
we
know
that
kentuckians
are
going
to
Bear
the
brunt.
You
know.
Obviously,
we've
got
a
you
know,
14
State
footprint
and
would
say
that
first
thing,
I'd
say
is
that
you
know
part
of
what
we
try
to
try
to
educate
policy
makers
that
are
interested
in
advancing
decarbonization
policies.
Is
around
this
concept
of
reliability
and
trying
to
create
and
we'll
call
them
like
reliability,
safety
valves.
F
You
know
in
the
event
that
a
unit
is
supposed
to
leave
the
system
or,
in
the
event,
you've
said:
hey
you,
coal
unit.
You
can
only
run
for
so
much
time
during
the
year.
If
we
need
those
units
in
order
to
preserve
reliability,
we've
tried
to
build
into
those
policies
like
we
have
done
in
Illinois,
actually
sort
of
this.
These
reliability
safety
measures,
the
other
thing
and
I
should
mention
is
that
you
know.
Currently
there
is
the
ability
if
a
unit
says
it
wants
to
retire.
F
If
we
then
run
it's
called
a
sort
of
deactivation,
analysis
and
removal
of
that
unit
would
show
that
it
is
going
to
create
reliability,
challenges
we
can
add
and
reliability
challenges
until
we
can.
You
know,
build
transmission
effectively
to
sort
of
alleviate
that
reliability
challenge.
We
can
ask
the
unit
to
stick
around
to
continue
to
provide
Power
I.
Think
your
broader
question
is
around
that's
called
reliability
must
run
I.
Think
your
broader
question
is
around
hey.
There
are
all
these
states
with
all
these
policies
that
are
pushing
units
off
of
the
system.
F
You
know
a
couple
thoughts,
which
is
that
so
let's
say
we
do
get
to
the
situation.
In
fact,
we
do
get
to
the
situation
where,
where
we
have,
you
know
what
is
effectively
a
a
a
system
where
we've
got
few
base
load
or
we'll
call
them
Thermal
units-
and
you
know
quite
a
few-
you
know
renewable
units.
Certainly
I
would
agree
with
you
that
those
base
load
units
could
be
utilized
more
to
to
provide
power
to
the
rest
of
the
footprint.
F
But
what
I
would
also
say
about
that
is
to
the
extent
that
you
want
those
resources
to
be
around
and
they
are
generating
power
and
they
are
providing
it
to
Consumers.
That
is
effectively
rather
than
sort
of
taxing
for
consumers.
That's
Revenue
that
they're
deriving
to
actually
provide
that
power
to
Consumers,
and
the
other
thing
is
was
just
we're
actually
just
in
Ohio
yesterday
and
had
this
conversation
with
their
government
as
well,
to
the
extent
that
you're
sort
of
open
for
business
for
the
construction
of
a
new
generation
that
can
help
to
provide
reliability.
F
It's
good
for
economic
development
as
well,
so
I
think
you
know,
while
you
may
be,
while
you
could
be
supporting
other
states
through
the
power
that
you
generate
conceivably
right,
because
we
don't
know
until
we
get
there,
there
then
would
be.
There,
then
would
be.
You
know
an
opportunity
frankly
for
for
economic
growth,
for
those
States
who
are
still
willing.
A
G
A
Chair,
thank
you.
Mr
talk.
Have
you
have
you
there
has
there
been
any
talks
about?
Maybe
a
reliability,
surcharge
or
or
something
to
the
effect
that
at
some
point
you
know
we
in
Kentucky
our
PSA
always
looks
at
what
they
claim
to
be
the
lowest
the
lowest
cost
scenario
and
maintaining
reliability
and
and
the
cheapest
costs.
But
at
some
point,
if
you
have
to
pay
a
little
bit
extra
for
reliability,
has
there
been
any
discussion
of
that.
F
It's
a
great
question,
so
you
know
currently
we're
looking
at
measures
to
bolster
reliability
in
operations
in
planning
and
in
markets
sort
of
our
Three
core
business
functions,
and
so
you
know,
with
vertically
integrated
States
utilities
submit
what
are
called
integrated
resource
plans
to
their
commissions
and
they
say:
here's
here's,
what
we're
going
to
utilize
to
try
and
provide
Power
to
our
consumers
and
we're
going
to
build
in
you
know
some
Reserve
margin
as
well.
That's
sort
of
the
integrated
resource
plan
process,
so
there's
sort
of
that.
F
There's
that
kind
of
oversight
or
overview
there
in
the
deregulated
States
we've
got
our
you
know,
what's
called
a
capacity
Market
to
try
and
procure
you
know,
resource
adequacy
for
the
future,
try
and
procure
enough
resources
and
enough
resources
to
maintain
reliability
in
the
future.
And
so
you
know
we
we
are
not
contemplating
a
surcharge
per
se.
But
what
we're
contemplating
is
markets,
reform
markets,
reform
to
try
and
ensure
that
the
markets
are
working
to
maintain
reliability
and
could
those
reforms
result
in?
F
Could
those
result
reforms
result
in
an
increase
in
cost?
For
you
know
the
deregulated
states
that
participate
in
the
capacity
Market
it
could
it
could,
but
I
think
we
are
in
the
sort
of
headspace.
Now,
where
you
know
all
of
our
core
business
functions
need
to
function
in
order
to
try
and
make
reliability
work,
and
so
to
your
point
chairman.
It's
not
a
surcharge
per
se,
but
as
we
sort
of
evolve
our
core
business
practices
of
markets
and
planning
and
operations,
we
need
to
make
sure
that
they
work
to
support
reliability.
Okay,.
A
Let
me
ask
you:
do
you
have
another
meeting
that
you
have
to
go
to
this
evening.
A
Well,
thank
you
I
appreciate
that,
and
this
has
been
a
good
discussion,
but
we
have
almost
10
people
asking
to
speak.
So
what
I
would
ask
is
that
you
asked
one
question
and
make
sure
that
you
go
through
the
chair,
because
you
know
we
want
everybody's
questions
to
be
answered.
We
appreciate
the
opportunity
to
to
ask
them.
We
don't
get
this
opportunity
a
lot,
but
please
be
mindful
of
time
so
representative.
A
Okay,
representing
Wesley.
J
Thank
you,
Mr
chair,
I,
heard
about
the
reliable
resources
here
and
also
our
coal
plants
being
shut
down
like
in
Pennsylvania
and
throughout
our
nation,
quick
question
with
a
risk
of
blackouts
continue
in
Kentucky
in
the
Commonwealth.
If
we
continue
shutting
our
coal
plants
down.
F
I
think
the
the
risk
of
not
having
resource
adequacy
later
on
into
this
decade
will
increase
the
risk
of
potential
shedding
load,
which
is
effectively
you
know
asking
customers
to
or
in
fact,
in
some
instances,
forcing
those
outages
in
order
to
preserve
overall
system
reliability.
I
do
think
that
increases
the
risk
unless
we've
got
adequate
replacement.
B
Let's
follow
up
on
the
point
that
he
just
made.
Would
it
not
be
simpler
for
us
to
look
at
a
longer
term
shutdown
plan,
rather
than
the
fast
track
that
we're
seeing
on
your
I
consider
eight
years,
Fast,
Track
or
seven
years,
Fast
Track?
Would
it
not
be
simpler
to
since
it
is
a
heightened?
It
heightens
the
degree
of
blackouts
by
shutting
the
power
of
the
coal
generation
plants.
H
H
B
Sure
so
Mr
chairman
I,
appreciate
you
having
them
here
because
you're,
actually
the
ones
going
to
have
to
answer
for
it
and
it's
coming,
and
you
know
it's
coming
because
the
decrease
of
our
power
of
the
cold
generation
plants
and
the
reliability
on
renewable
energy
is
not
it's
not
going
to
be
sufficient.
When
you're
you're
forced
to
look
at
electric
cars
more
electric
grid,
you
you've
got
a
double
whammy
coming
and
all
we're
asking
or
I'm
asking
is
for
you
to
really
I.
B
Don't
know
if
you
have
lobbyists
in
your
company
I,
don't
know
how
you
deal
with
Washington,
but
I
can
tell
you
here
in
Frankfurt.
Our
interest
is
having
electorate
at
the
cheapest
rate
and
we
have
had
people
sit
there.
Mr
chairman
tell
us
that
coal
generation
plants
is
the
most
reliable
and
cheapest
form
of
electric
grid.
So
I
don't
even
know
why
you
have
to
be
put
in
this
position.
But
you
are
it's
on
you
and
I'm.
Just
saying
you
better.
B
Look
at
a
longer
term
model
I,
like
hybrid
cars,
I
think
we
should.
B
We
should
do
a
transition
to
hybrid
cars
before
we
go
electric,
but
that's
just
my
opinion,
but
I'm
I'm,
just
making
the
statement
that
in
four
or
five
years,
when
you're
sitting
in
front
of
us,
maybe
three
years
or
two
year
period
explaining
how
the
blackout
happens
and
as
representative
Blanton
said,
there's
no
doubt
in
my
mind,
if
there's
another
state
on
your
footprint
that
runs
out
electrics,
you're
not
going
to
pull
from
where
you
have
to
pull
from
that's
business
and
you'll
have
to
to
to
do
that
so
again,
thank
you.
B
A
Thank
you,
representative
Senator
Southworth,.
D
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman
earlier,
you
mentioned
that
other
locations
in
the
country
had
I,
think
elevated
risk,
two-thirds
or
something
we
were
talking
about.
Likelihoods
of
issues
shortfalls
and
whatever
and
pjm
is
not
in
the
elevated
risk
category.
Can
you
describe
what
risk
category
that
PGM
is
in
and
then
perhaps,
if
you
have
a
general
idea
on
where
other
Regional
groups
are
so
where
are
we
in
the
whole
mix?
Nationwide.
H
Sure
so
you
know
first
senator.
F
F
There
are
regions
in
the
country
that
are
quote
at
highly
elevated
risk
of
having
to
shed
load
when
the
weather
gets
really
hot.
This
summer
was
a
summer
assessment
that
they
did
again.
Pjm
is
not
in
that
highly
elevated,
Zone
and
I,
don't
recall
if
we
were
given
a
designation.
You
know
just
outside
of
that,
but
we're
not
in
that
highly
elevated
Zone
within
the
Commonwealth
and
I
want
to
turn
to
my
colleague.
If
I
recall
correctly,
the
Mid-Continent
ISO
is
in
that
highly
elevated
Zone
and
then
what
about
TVA?
F
Okay,
we
will
get
back
to
you
on
that
particular
piece,
but
Kentucky
is
a
is
very
unique
in
that
your
whole
state
in
your
state
is
actually
you've
got
a
few
different
grid
operators,
depending
on
where
you
or
where
you
are
jurisdictionally
again.
We
cover
the
footprint
of
ekpc,
Duke
and
Kentucky
Power.
A
Okay,
representative
Gentry.
K
Thank
you,
Mr
chair,
thank
you,
Mr
Hague
for
coming
in
and
I'm
not
going
to
beat
you
down
on
rates
or.
K
But
my
question
is,
is
a
little
different
than
everybody
else's
and
I
guess
in
conversations
and
modern
day
conversations
of
clean
energy.
So
on
I'm
hearing
this
word
hydrogen
and
it
seems
to
be
very
controversial.
I'm
hearing,
Pros
cons
potential
and
just
today,
if
you
want
to
add
any
kind
of
comment
at
all
from
your
perspective
of
what
you
might
know,
offer
anything
you
like,
but
hydrogen
I've.
F
Sure
so
we
know
that
hydrogen
is
a
technology
that
is
currently
sort
of
in
r
d
phase,
with
a
number
of
Our
member
companies,
and
all
our
position
is
with
respect
to
hydrogen
is
if
you
can
assist
in
providing
power,
and
you
can
assist
in
providing
reliable
power.
We'd
love
to
have
you,
okay,
but
part
of,
and
again
we'll
get
back
to
this
last
this
last
the
far
right
reliability
concern
Deployable
at
scale
and
so
I.
F
You
know
to
to
representative
Smith's
point
you
know
we
have
today
is
for
PJ
Mentor
connection
legislative
testimony
number
14
in
2023..
Our
boss
actually
testified
to
very
similar
effect
at
the
U.S
Senate
on
June,
the
first
so
we're
being
very
vocal
about
where
we
view
the
transition
and
where
pjm
is
effectively
positioned
in
this
transition,
and
we
get
a
lot
of
questions.
I've
gotten.
F
So
our
my
just
general,
my
general
response,
as
as
representing
a
grid
operator
that
that
provides
bulk
power
for
part
of
the
Commonwealth
is
we
would
be
happy
to
incorporate
hydrogen
into
the
system.
It's
got
to
go
through
the
r
d
phase.
It's
got
to
be
safe,
you
know
if
it
can
preserve
reliability,
cost
effectively
and
is
Deployable
at
scale.
We'd
love
to
have
it
sorry
if
I
can't
provide
more,
but
on
on
on
on
R,
D
and
sort
of
resource
type,
we're
generally
agnostic.
A
Thank
you,
Central
Webb,.
L
A
L
Chairman
and
anybody
who
told
this
former
underground
coal
miner
40
years
ago,
that
should
be
on
the
nuclear
task
force.
You
know
I
thought
they
were
on
something,
but
anyway
that's
where
we
are,
and
we
do
have
a
nuclear
task
force
now
and
we
are
working
towards
that
possibility.
But
I'm
like
you,
it
it's
a
little
far
out
and
and
we're
going
to
need
things
now
and
my
question
is
in
the
end,
if
they
anticipated
shortages
occur
per
if,
whether
it's
a
storm
or
whatever,
on
your
grid,
who
you
serve?
L
What
area?
What
demographic
do
you
have
any
anticipated
like
who's,
going
to
go?
First,
who's
going
to
be
browned
out
who's,
going
to
be
blackout,
I've.
L
People
and
I've
got
some
major
users
like
binary
in
my
district
Okay,
so
we've
got
in
East
Kentucky,
where
we're
used
to
having
plenty
of
power
at
a
pretty
good
rate.
When
we
look
at
anticipation
of
a
failure
or
brown
out
blackout
total
out,
whatever
the
case
may
be,
do
we
have
any
projected
models
as
of
the
demographic
that
would
be
affected
first
or
the
most
in
case
of
certain
scenarios?.
F
Senator
wonderful
question:
we
we
wouldn't
shut
if
there
was,
if
there
were
a
situation
in
our
recent
history,
we
have
not
had
such
a
situation.
We
did
have
one
in
June
of
last
year,
specifically
in
the
Columbus
Ohio
area,
because
of
downed
transmission
lines
as
a
result
of
a
direct
show
that
came
through
and
knocked
down
a
bunch
of
transmission
lines,
weather
related
and
tree
related
frankly,
outages
that
created
a
forced
outage
situation
in
the
Columbus
area,
and
so
you
know
Center
it.
It
will
be
very
sort
of
specific.
F
As
to
you
know
what
is
necessary
for
the
engineering
of
the
grid,
okay,
and
so
we
wouldn't
select.
You
know
a
hey
you're
going
to
be
out
based
on
sort
of
demographics,
of
end
use,
customers
or
anything
like
that.
In
fact,
we
don't
even
deal
on
the
retail
side,
so
we
don't
know
what
customer
is
based
where
that's
for
distribution
utilities.
Really.
F
It's
just
not
something
that
we
deal
in
or
even
know
about
it
would
if
it
happened
and
again
you
know
outside
of
like
that,
one
very
specific
instance
in
our
recent
history.
It
has
not.
It
would
be
based
upon
the
the
engineering
of
the
grid
and
what
was
necessary
to
keep
the
bulk
of
the
grid.
L
Populations
and
these
kentuckies
got
a
history
of
being
on
the
back
end
understood,
so
my
concern
would
be
if
there
had
to
be
a
decision
made
as
to
who
would
bear
the
burden
of
certain
scenarios,
whether
man-made
or
natural
occurrences.
You
know
if
they
had
flexibility
in
that
determination.
What
would
the
criteria
be
and
who
would
be
most
at
risk
that.
F
Yeah
would
all
be
it
would
all
be
engineering
based.
Unfortunately,
so
I
don't
have
a
great
answer
for
you,
but
that
I
mean
well.
That
is
effectively
the
answer,
so
but
I
I
think
one
thing
to
know
is:
is
we
do
work
closely
with
our
transmission
owners,
who,
generally
speaking,
then
have
the
distribution
utility?
That
is
a
affiliate
or
subsidiary,
and
so
we
do
work
closely,
and
so
would
there
be
the
ability
to
work
with
them
to
kind
of
have
an
understanding?
If
we
say
hey
this,
this
this
region
needs
to
be
out.
F
Can
you
work
conceivably
distribution
utility
to
maybe
rotate
the
outages
so
that
people
don't
experience?
You
know
prolonged
or
you
know
just
based
upon
where
the
where
the
the
area
is
situated.
I
think
one
of
the
challenges-
and
this
is
just
a
lesson
learned
from
that
June
outage
of
last
year-
is
when
you
kind
of
stray
from
the
engineering,
and
you
start
to
get
into
kind
of
the
people-centric
component
of
of
the
situation.
F
It
can
get
pretty
sort
of
dangerous
right
and
get
pretty
dicey
like
who
does
who
should
be
out
like
who's,
so
I
I.
Think
in
that
situation
there
were
there
were
a
lot
of
questions
about
who
was
out
and
why
and
eventually
I
think
the
the
the
Public
Utilities
Commission
in
Ohio,
as
well
as
the
media.
We're
pretty
well
assured
that
it
was
just
engineering
based
at
the
end
of
the
day.
F
So,
but
you
ask
a
really
great
question:
it's
always
important
to
know
that
at
the
end
of
all
of
this
there
are
people-
and
you
know
it's
certainly
something.
That's
part
of
you
know
we
are
a
mission-driven
organization,
we're
effectively
operate
as
a
non-profit.
You
know
we
have
our
rates
on
file
with
the
ferc.
F
A
M
My
question
relates
to
what
I'm,
perceiving
as
somewhat
of
a
gap,
because,
right
now
we
have
our
current
power
system.
We
have
a
clear
transition
that
we're
making
and
the
whole
Spirit
of
your
presentation
is
on
that
transition
to
the
Future,
which
is
for
many
in
this
room.
Unfortunately,
not
coal
power
plants.
M
Do
you
have
a
recommendation
for
States
like
Kentucky,
which
historically
have
derived
a
great
benefit
from
having
coal
as
one
of
our
featured
Industries
for
this
interim
transition?
Or
is
it,
as
you
were
saying,
to
rep
Gentry
earlier,
you
all
sort
of
frankly
don't
care
where
the
energy
comes
from
so
long
as
it
comes
until
we
make
the
transition
to
other
thermal
things.
Perhaps
nuclear
and
other
Renewables.
F
I
I
think
the
answer
is
yes
and
we
are
sort
of
resource
agnostic
in
that
regard,
and
it's
not
that
we
don't
care
and
I
I
want
to.
F
You
know
be
be
clear
that
we,
you
know,
we
definitely
have
an
understanding
that
state
and
local
economies
are
reliant,
for
instance,
on
you
know,
particular
fuels
I'm
actually
from
the
state
of
Ohio
and
so
I
understand
the
economics
of
regions
and
coal,
specifically
Appalachia
I,
understand
also
the
economics
around
the
Shale
gas
Revolution
and
the
jobs
that
were
created
there,
and
so
you
know
very
sympathetic
to
those
concerns,
I
think
as
the
grid
operator.
Again,
we
do
look
at
this
from
a
more
engineering
perspective
and
specifically,
we
will
need
thermal
resources
right.
F
We
will
need
thermal
resources
until
you
know
those
resources
can
be
replaced
again
at
scale,
and
so
we
don't
see
that
technology
being
integrated
into
the
system,
certainly
not
tomorrow,
and
so
we
will
continue
to
need
our
thermal
resources
and
you
know
I'll
I'll
say
what
I
said
to
Ohio.
You
know
just
yesterday,
which
is
you
know
we.
You
know
you're
well,
positioned
in
the
sense
that
we're
going
to
continue
to
need.
You
know
some
amount
of
these
thermal
resources
and
you
have
them
right.
F
So
that's
sort
of
thing
one
and
then
thing
two
is
and
sort
of
in
response
to
the
representative
who's
left.
The
room
is
you
know
if
you
were
still
open
for
business,
for
you
know:
resources,
Beyond,
solar
and
wind.
You
know
there's
an
opportunity
there
as
well,
and
so
I
do
you
know
just
objectively,
and
you
know
again,
I
would
say
this
to
sort
of
your
state
or
state.
That's
similarly
situated
I
do
think.
There's
opportunity,
I,
think,
there's
economic
growth,
opportunity
economics.
F
You
know
sustaining
and
growth
in
a
state
like
the
Commonwealth
of
Kentucky.
Thank.
M
A
Thank
you,
representative,
Johnson.
N
Thank
you
Mr
chairman,
so
you
you
start
off
your
presentation
with
and
by
the
way.
Thank
you
for
the
presentation.
Sure
it's
awesome.
You
start
off
your
presentation
talking
about
trends.
One
of
the
trends
you
talked
about
is
the
forecasted
retirement
of
generation,
capabilities,
generation,
sources
and
I.
Believe
you
said
that
was
a
conservative
estimate
on
your
part.
I
strongly
agree
with
that.
N
I
suspect
it
might
get
much
worse
and
with
the
trends
we
have
going
right
now
and
you
also
talked
about
the
increase
in
demand
increase
in
load
and,
if
I
remember
right.
You
felt
like
that
was
a
pretty
conservative
estimate
too.
Is
that
fair
to
say
that
the
yeah.
F
F
We
try
and
build
in
a
sort
of
you
know
mathematical
trajectory
of
how
we
think
the
industries
are
going
to
evolve,
but
but
I
I
don't
know
if
the
load
growth
forecast
is
is
conservative,
but
certainly
we
think
the
forecasted
retirements
forecast
is
conservative,
as
we
sit
here
today,
but
the
load
growth
forecasters
will
just
need
to
be
updated
with
greater
consistency
is
my
answer
to.
N
That
okay,
so
this
is
my
question,
this
is
actually
my
question
and
our
responsibility
here
is
to
protect
our
citizens
in
Kentucky.
Given
the
projection
you
have
for
retirement
of
sources
and
the
production
you
have
for
load
increase
at
this
crunch
time,
you're
talking
about
in
the
2030s
in
your
professional
opinion,
as
a
subject
matter,
expert
sure,
I'm,
making
this
as
soft
as
I
can.
N
Do
you
feel
that,
with
the
16
point
plan
that
you
mentioned,
that
your
agency
feels
confident
that
we
will
be
able
to
provide
the
energy
we
need
to
provide
given
the
reduced
production
and
the
increased
load,
you
feel
confident
we're
going
to
be
able
to
avoid
the
things
we
talk
about
here,
blackouts,
brownouts
load
shifts
to
protect
other
states.
Do
you
feel
confident
that
you
will
be
able
to
do
that?
Given
the
the
trends
that
you're
seeing
you.
F
F
We
have
again
a
bit
more
time
than
some
of
our
compatriot
grid
operators
in
the
country,
so
we
have
a
bit
more
time
we're
observing
to
see
what
they're
doing
we're
trying
to
learn
lessons
from
what
they're
doing
and
then
apply
those
to
sort
of
our
unique
situation.
All
these
grids
are
different,
like
each
one
of
these
nine
of
these
in
North,
America,
they're
all
different.
They
all
have
their
sort
of
own
resource
mix.
They
all
have
their
their
individual
states
and
policy
priorities.
F
I
will
say:
pjm
I
think
is
also
well
situated
to
Senator
southworth's
question
around
the
elevated
risk
because
we
are
so
diverse.
Okay,
we
really
are
a
diverse
footprint.
We've
got
States
like
Ohio
West,
Virginia,
Kentucky,
they're,
still
very
much
concerned
about
their
their
coal
economies.
We
have
States
again
like
Ohio
and
West
Virginia
Pennsylvania
that
sit
on
top
of
the
Shale
play.
We've
got
states
that
are
advancing
aggressively.
F
You
know
aggressive
decarbonization,
and
you
know
that
that
being
coupled
with
sort
of
the
vertically
integrated
model
versus
the
the
deregulated
model
in
some
ways
the
vertically
integrated
model,
while
we
like
competitive
markets
and
we
advocate
for
markets,
the
vertically
integrated
model
can
also
be
helpful
to
promoting
reliability
because
the
rather
than
rely
on
a
market
construct,
rather
than
allowing
a
market
construct
to
determine
resource
adequacy.
Your
locality,
your
state
PSC,
can
do
that
and
so
I
think
the
diversity
of
the
footprint
gives
us
a
fighting
chance.
F
I
think
it
gives
us
a
fighting
chance,
but
the
thing
that
the
variables
that
you
know
a
real
variable
that
is
just
impossible
today
to
sit
here
and
contemplate
how
it
lands
is
the
variable
around
technology
development.
It's
just
impossible
to
say
today,
because
look
if,
if
20
years
ago,
we
were
to
have
this
conversation,
so
let's
call
it
2003.
We
would
have
not
anticipated
the
Shale
play
and
20
years
ago
PJ
was
predominantly
coal
based
footprint.
F
We
want
to
raise
the
raise
the
concerns
because,
as
has
been
very,
are
very
artfully
articulated
if
the
lights
go
out,
I'll
be
back
here,
saying
hello
and
you
know
there'll
be
a
different
conversation
had,
and
so
hence
you
know
us
coming
out,
and
you
know
really
trying
to
get
out
to
our
state
legislatures
to
have
these
discussions,
so
so
the
variable
of
new
technology
really
hard
to
figure
out
right
now,
where
that's
going
to
land
I'd
say
the
other
variable
and
you
know:
I,
listen
I
want
to
couch
this
sort
of
this.
F
These
comments.
In
these
terms,
our
queue
consists
of
primarily
again
solar,
wind
and
Battery
resources.
Okay,
that
indicates
that
the
grid
will
get
greener
right.
The
grid
will
get
greener
just
based
upon
the
composition
of
what
is
their.
What
is
in
our
generation
in
our
connection
queue-
and
it's
sort
of
fact,
okay,
but
you
know
a
variable
that
we're
not
sure
about
right
now
is
how
much
actual
renewable
generation
is
going
to
leave
our
queue
and
construct,
because
I'll
give
you
a
statistic
that
we
haven't
talked
about
yet,
but
it's
important,
which
is
you
know.
F
Currently
we
have
a
lot
of
generation
that
is
out
of
pjm's
queue.
Has
nothing
left
to
do
with
PGM
interconnection?
You've
got
what
you
need
from
us:
okay
and
that
number's
high
it's
48
000,
it's
48,
gigs.
Okay,
so
remember
we
talked
about
our
concern
about
40
gigs
retiring
by
the
end
of
this
decade,
and
currently
we
have
48
gigs
that
have
found
their
way
through
all
things
pjm
and
are
waiting
to
construct.
Okay,
but
we
are
not
seeing
the
steel
in
the
ground
and
it's
primarily
due
to
the
reasons
that
we
are
given.
F
F
We
are
hearing
about
citing
problems,
we
are
hearing
about
financing
problems
and
some
sort
of
counter-intuitive
impacts
of
the
inflation
reduction
act.
These
are
all
things
that
are
out
of
our
control
and
so
a
variable
that
we
cannot
yet
variable
that
we
just
don't
know
enough
about
yet
is
how
much
of
this
generation
that
is
in
the
queue
and
finds
their
way
through
the
queue?
How
much
of
this
generation
is
actually
going
to
get
built?
F
N
N
N
Follow-Up
finish:
if
we
didn't
have
the
combined
emphasis
of
electrifying
everything
we
possibly
can
from
our
cars
to
our
stoves
and
our
kitchens,
combined
with
an
incredible
effort
to
destroy
our
coal
Industries
and
our
natural
gas
Industries,
we
would
not
be
having
this
meeting
right
now.
We
would
not
need
to
have
this
meeting
right
now
and
if
we
don't
change
at
least
one
of
those
Trends
in
some
way.
The
answer
to
the
question
that
I
asked
this
gentleman
is
going
to
be
absolutely
not.
We
have
got
to
look
at
reality.
E
E
Can
we
handle
the
the
load,
the
usage
that
it's
going
to
put
on
our
grid
and
do
we
have
the
generational
capacity
as
we
get
to
this?
You
know
projected
point
of
electrical
vehicles.
F
Yeah
representative
I
I
would
answer
in
a
very
similar
way
that
I
answered
representative
Johnson,
which
is
we
we
don't
know
yet.
But
we
are
concerned
that
with
increased
electrification
and
increased
retirements,
so
these
trends
that
we're
seeing
that
we
may
not
have
enough,
but
we
don't
know
for
sure,
which
is
why
we're
sort
of
presenting
the
concern
and
again
saying
that
we're
going
to
take
action
to
try
and
resolve
that
concern.
E
Follow-Up
Mr
sure,
as
policy
makers
as
lawmakers.
What
any
advice
is
to
what
we
can
do
to
make
sure
that
we
can't
handle
that
load
in
this
projected
shift
and
that
we
do
have
the
generational
capacity
to
serve
Kentucky
and
and
the
I
guess
the
more
frequent
usage
of
of
the
grid
as
people
plug
in
their
vehicles,
in
that
before
they
go
to
bed
and
I,
get
get
their
vehicles
charged.
F
So
this
is
a
bit
of
a
unique
circumstance
for
me
in
that.
Generally
speaking,
when
I'm
asked
that
question
by
policy
makers,
the
the
policy
maker
has
an
idea
of
I
want
to
advance
some
kind
of
decarbonization
legislation.
How
can
I
do
it
while
keeping
the
grid
reliable
and
our
response
is
typically
this?
The
grid
is
a
machine
and
it
requires
deep
engineering
and
scientific
analysis
before
policy
is
Advanced.
Let
us
help
if
you
don't
want
us
to
be
the
primary
folks.
You
know,
let
us
help
it.
F
You
know
conduct
some
of
that
analysis
to
to
assist
in
that
sort
of
policy
making
I
think
in
this
I
think
in
this
particular
circumstance-
and
this
is
obviously
a
different-
a
different
venue
I
would
just
continue
to
keep
reliability
at
the
Forefront
of
all
energy
policy.
That
is
crafted
on
behalf
of
this
body
as
well
as
costs.
Certainly
cost
is
very,
very
important
to
Consumers.
F
We
also
believe
it's
very,
very
important
to
Consumers,
so
just
my
Broad,
my
kind
of
broad
thought
or
my
my
sort
of
the
sort
of
summation
of
you
know
all
the
education
done
today
is
with
all
things
that
the
body
does
just
thinking,
thinking
about
reliability
and
using
us
as
a
resource,
to
the
extent
that
we
can
help
you.
F
I
Briefly,
you
stated
earlier
you
think
the
PSC
is
responsible
for
increasing
power.
Cost
I
mean
it's.
My
understanding,
one
of
the
biggest
drivers
of
Kentucky
Power
costs
are
transmission
costs
approved
by
ferc
that
the
PSC
does
not
have
authority
to
deny,
and
a
lot
of
these
Investments
are
in
fact
occurring
out
of
state
and
aren't
even
Regional
and
have
nothing
to
do
with
Kentucky.
F
It's
a
great
question,
and
so
local
transmission
projects
or
supplemental
projects,
those
are
built
out
at
the
decision
of
the
local
utility.
They
are
allocated
cost
wise
based
upon
formulas
that
have
been
approved
by
the
ferc.
What
we
do
in
this
space
because
we
don't
have-
we
have
not
been
vested
with
the
authority
to
sort
of
locally
plan
in
the
same
way
that
we
regionally
plan
what
we
do
is
we've
got
a
stakeholder
process.
F
So
it's
a
process
that
is
public
that
individuals,
you
don't
have
to
be
a
member
of
pjm
to
tune
into
these
stakeholder
processes.
So
what
the?
What
we
have
done,
and
actually
the
ferc
has
said:
hey
we
in
you
know
certain
dockets,
you
know
look
at
pjm's
model
is
we've
created
a
venue
where
stakeholders
and
transmission
owners,
specifically
transmission
owners,
come
to
and
present
the
local
projects
that
they
plan
to
construct.
F
Questions
are
asked
of
the
transmission
owners
around.
You
know
the
sort
of
parameters
of
those
projects,
though
you
know
what
is
it
the
whys,
and
that
currently
is,
is
the
authority
that
we've
been
vested
with
to
to
try
and
shed
some
transparency
around
those
local
project
that
local
project
development
and
spend.
But
you
are
correct
in
that,
in
that
those
are
not
regionally
planned
by
pjm
and
the
cost
allocation
has
been
determined.
I
F
I
think
you
know
there
was
a
protracted.
There
was
a
protracted
sort
of
piece
of
litigation
around
this
topic
and
the
ferc
eventually
adjudicated
the
matter
and
sort
of
said.
You
know,
here's
where
we
are,
and
here's
where
we
are,
is
what
I,
just
what
I
described
to
you
and
so
I
think
you
know
part
of
where
pjm
is
positioned
on
this?
Is
we
we
don't
know
the
local
systems
again
we're
bulk
power
grid?
F
We
don't
know
the
local
systems,
like
the
local
transmission
owners
and
utilities,
will
know
the
systems
and,
in
part,
that's
why
the
ferc
has
ruled
how
it's
ruled,
because
PGM
interconnection,
which
has
you
know
been
sort
of
you
know
in
some
ways
like
maligned
recently,
for,
for
instance,
not
processing
interconnection
requests
fast
enough
work
faster,
pjm
that
whole
world
of
trying
to
determine
what
local
transmission
is
needed
for
localities
is,
is
something
that
that
we
don't
nearly
have
the
sort
of
window
into
like
our
local
transmission
owners.
F
Do
it's
sort
of
you
know
local
in
nature,
but
you
are
correct
and
I
and
and
I
think
this
is
where
you're
going
with
this
Senator
I.
Think
you
are
correct
in
that
there
have
been
a
lot
of
debates
around
the
oversight
of
this
and
it's
a
cost.
O
Thank
you,
Mr
chair,
thank
you
for
the
presentation
of
my
comment
goes
along
with
some
many
other
things
been
said
here
today.
I
guess,
I'm
concerned
about
who's
driving
the
bus.
That's
been
an
original
approach.
How
does
Kentucky
fit
in
that?
How
what
kind
of
how
much
play
do
they
have
as
you've
seen?
Some
states
are
completely
under
under
jurisdiction
about
this,
but
Kentucky
is
not
so
when
it
comes
to
Economic,
Development,
plus
also
the
cost
of
individuals,
who's
driving
the
bus
will
Kentucky
really
have
a
a
say
in
this.
O
If,
as
as
a
representative,
if
somebody
calls
me
with
concerns
who
do
I
contact,
is
it
somebody
from
Pennsylvania
or
Ohio
wherever?
How
is
this
going
to
benefit
Kentucky
and
who?
How
can
we
ensure
that
we're
driving
a
bus
not
only
for
the
individuals
but
for
economic
development,
because
that's
been
one
of
the
keys
we've
used
in
previous
years
that
our
energy
has
been
such
a
low
price
that
we
helped
to
draw
industry
in
our
way,
but
somebody
else
may
be
controlling
that
and
we
need.
We
need
jobs
here.
Yeah.
F
F
Your
question
is
a
really
good
one
in
that
it
gets
to
sort
of
what
is
like
where's,
where's,
State
purview
and
then,
where
are
states
participating,
regionally
and
and
and
within
the
federal
government,
sphere
and
I
would
say
at
least
at
pjm
again
we
have
this
robust
stakeholder
process
where
you
know
we
are
looking
at
core
business
functions
like
planning
markets
and
operations,
and
the
primary
interface
with
PGM
interconnection
is
the
Kentucky
PSC
and
it
is
with
within
the
state
of
Kentucky
and
that's
actually
the
case.
F
It's
not
Kentucky
is
not
different
in
that
regard.
That
is
actually
the
case
across
the
footprint
across
the
footprint
the
state
PSC,
which,
generally
speaking,
has
the
experts
housed
internally
that
understand
transmission
that
understand
markets.
They
are
the
primary
interface
with
pjm
interconnection.
There's
a
lot
of
activity
going
on
at
pjm,
a
lot
of
activity
and
the
Kentucky
PSE
is
participatory
in
that
activity,
and
so
you
know,
the
opinion
of
states
is
extremely
important.
The
opinion
of
an
organization
that
actually
chairman
Chandler
is
going
to
be
the
president
of
next
year.
F
The
organization
of
pjm
states
is
very
important
to
the
Federal
Energy
Regulatory
Commission.
In
fact,
two
of
the
Commissioners
at
the
Federal
Energy
Regulatory
Commission,
are
former
Commissioners
State
Commissioners
that
were
part
of
the
organization
of
PGM
states
that
chair
Chandler
is
going
to
be
the
president
of
next
year
and
so,
when
you
say
who's
driving
the
bus.
Certainly,
if
it's
state
jurisdiction,
you
know
you
all
are
driving
the
bus
and
PSE
is
supposed
to
effectively.
F
A
Thank
you
and
I
certainly
appreciate
you
being
here
today
and
you've
answered
our
questions.
I,
don't
want
to
drag
this
out
please,
but
I
have
a
question
that
you
know
even
I,
sometimes
kind
of
at
odds
with
different
things,
and
so
I
wanted
to
ask
you
this
question.
On
page
eight,
where
you
talked
about
the
things
that
were
in
the
queue
and
you
look
at,
let's
say
the
solar,
and
you
know
a
lot
of
it
hasn't
been
built
yet
is.
Is
that?
A
F
We
don't
we
don't
make
a
distinction
between
investor
owned
utilities
and
Merchant.
Just
generally
speaking,
we
have
seen
very
low
build
and
we've
got.
You
know.
We've
got
vertically
integrated
states
that
are
advancing
intensive
decarbonization
agenda
as
well.
In
fact
in
our
in
our
report
that
for
our
report,
those
policy
retirements,
one
of
the
states
that
we
cite
is
actually
Virginia
that
is
trying
to
adhere
to
its
Virginia
clean
economy
act
and
an
integrated
resource
plan,
specifically
from
Dominion,
which
is
trying
to
implement
the
provisions
of
the
Virginia
clean
economy.
F
So
we
don't,
we
don't
look
at
it
from
investor
owned.
We
don't
look
at
it
from
vertically
integrated.
We
don't
look
at
it
from
a
merchant
perspective.
It's
just.
There
are
a
lot
of
watts
in
the
queue
that
are
that
are
again
some
combination
of
solar
wind
battery
resource
and
we
we
hope
they
get
built
because
we
need
the
Watts.
But,
as
we
sit
here
today,
they're
not
getting
built
well.
A
The
reason
that
I
I
asked
that
and
and
is
that
you
know
we
well
often
we'll
have
a
company
that
will
come
to
Kentucky
and-
and
you
know
we
have
a
this
monopolistic
system
here
pretty
much
except
you
know
where
people
operate
within
a
specific
area
and
they.
H
A
Provide
service
to
everyone-
and
you
know
we'll
have
maybe
a
business
that
will
come
and
come
in
and
they'll
demand
or
that
a
certain
percent
of
their
electricity
be
provided
to
them
through
green
sources,
Nobles
or
whatever,
and
and
I
don't
normally
have
a
problem
with
that
unless
we
are
shifting
that
cost
to
the
other
consumers.
Here,
I
was
recently
at
a
nuclear
Symposium,
and
what
they
were
talking
about
is
that
for
a
lot
of
the
large
Industries,
they
could
actually
come
in
and
do
their
own
small
modular
nuclear
really.
A
But
then
you
know
our
maybe
our
investor
on
utilities
and
our
co-ops
would
rather
them
build
the
small
modular
nuclear
reactor
or
the
solar
fields
or
whatever,
because
if
you
allow
that
large
customer
to
to
do
their
own
electricity,
then
they're
taking
that's
taking
sales
away
from
you
know
the
existing
utilities
and
so
I'm,
really
not
sure
which,
which
is
the
best.
A
You
know,
I,
don't
want
a
large
customer
to
tell
you
know
the
the
utilities
that
they
have
to
provide
a
certain
percentage
of
their
power
because
it
might
shift
costs
the
other
way.
But
then,
if
we
have
that
large
business
that
comes
in
and
and
and
generates
our
own
electricity,
then
the
fact
that
they're
not
buying
utilities,
could
increase
the
other
customers
costs.
C
A
So
that's
just
been
something
that
I've
yeah
I
have
a
little
bit
of
dilemma
with
and
I'm,
not
sure
which,
which
is
the
best.
F
Yeah
I
think
chairman
is
a
really
interesting
question
and
we
actually
are
seeing
quite
a
few
industrial
customers
start
to
locate
generation
on
their
facilities.
Just
because
they're
worried
right,
they're
worried
about
ensuring
that
they've
got
enough
power
to
run
their
facilities,
I
used
to
work
at
Honda.
H
F
Manufacturing
and
you
know,
worked
actually
above
the
plant
that
was
building
the
Civic
and
I.
Remember
working
on
sort
of
this.
This
this
issue
of
you
know:
hey
we're
going
to
need
some
of
our
runs,
we're
going
to
need
our
own
on-site
generation
because
we're
concerned
about
you
know
we
want
to
rely
on
the
system
that
are
or
it
was
that
time
was
a
co-op,
that's
providing,
but
we're
concerned
about.
If
that
Co-op
loses
power
we
need
our
own.
F
We
need
our
own
power,
so
we're
seeing
actually
quite
a
bit
of
that-
and
you
know
this
is
not
necessarily
on
topic,
but
just
interesting
information.
You
know
the
ferc
has
actually
created
a
the
ability
for
those
resources
to
kind
of
Be
aggregated
by
an
aggregator
and
then
participate
in
wholesale
markets
that
PGM
operates
in
order
to
receive
Revenue.
So
you
know,
there's
a
there's
a
potential,
even
there's
a
potential,
even
Revenue
stream.
For
those
you
know,
for
instance,
industrial
customers
that
want
to
you
know
utilize
pjm
to
obtain
wholesale
Market
Revenue.
F
Now
many
utilities,
as
overseen
by
the
the
their
state
public
service
commissions,
have
net
metering
tariffs
right.
It's
basically,
you
know
you
I
generate
for
myself,
so
give
me
a
discount.
Maybe
in
some
states
I
can
push
power
to
your
distribution
grid
and
you
can
serve
customers
and
then
give
me
a
double
discount.
F
So
that
also
exists
as
well,
but
I
think
we're
going
to
see
a
continued
proliferation
of
this
I
think
we're
seeing
a
lot
of
it,
whether
it's
on-site,
solar
or
you
know
some
other
form
of
distributed
generation
resource,
that's
sort
of
assisting
end-use
customers.
That
is
not
even
connected
to
the
bulk
Electric
System.
A
It's
been
very
enlightening
and
I
appreciate
the
fact
that
you're
actually
raising
some
of
these
concerns
that
we
have
about
reliability
and
affordability
and
and
those
sort
of
things,
because
it's
very
important
and
I
think
the
problem
that
that
I
have
and
I
think
many
members
on
this
committee
is
that
you
know
we've
been
expressing
a
lot
of
these
concerns
about
for
a
long
time,
and
we
don't
seem
to
hear
we
don't
feel
like
people
are
listening
to
us
as
policy
makers
that
are
providing
these
types
of
mandates
since
from
Washington
are
listening
to
us
at
all,
and-
and
that's
really
concern
it's
concerning
to
us
that
people
that
are
making
decisions
may
be
implementing
things
that
aren't
possible.
H
A
Now,
through
the
current
Technologies
and
and
that
sort
of
thing,
and
so
the
thing
that
we
would
ask,
is
that
people
do
listen
to
us
and
and
not
try
to
force
things
down
our
throat
I
think
one
of
the
things
that
we've
been
fighting
in
Kentucky
a
long
time
is.
You
know
that
any
kind
of
one
size
fits
all
a
policy
from
Washington
is
not
going
to
be
good
for
Kentucky
and
when
we're
not
allowed
to
use
our
resources
and
things
that
we
have
available.
A
That
also
is
not
good
for
Kentucky,
and
you
know.
A
Technology,
as
as
you
mentioned,
is,
is
very
important,
and
these
things
are
going
to
depend
on
where
the
technology,
what
technologies
are
available
in
the
future,
and
one
of
the
concerns
that
I
have
also
is
that
it
seems
as
if
our
government
is
trying
to
steer
technology
in
certain
directions
and
and
and
as
you
mentioned
20
years
ago,
we
wouldn't
have
had
any
idea
about
the
shell
technology
and
that
wasn't
something
that
was
pushed
by
the
government
that
something
that
happened
you
know
with
within
the
industry,
and
it
was
a
game
changer,
and
so
that's
what?
A
What
I
also
hope
is
that
that
we
don't
try
to
pigeonhole
the
technology
and
put
all
into
certain
directions
that
may
not
go
anywhere
and
and
then
the
other
thing
is
you
know
in
in
2000
and
what's
the
1990
when
they
did
the
Clean
Air
Act,
you
know
later
yeah
my
area
in
West
Kentucky,
the
coal
Fields
were
hurt
really
bad
because
we
had
high
sulfur
coal
and
but
the
technology
was
really
there
that
allowed
the
utilities
to
put
the
scrubbers
on
and
actually
get
rid
of,
about,
probably
85
percent
of
the
socks
and
knocks
a
particular
matter
in
the
set
and,
and
so
that
was
really
really
good.
A
But
then
later
when
the
Obama
Administration
came
in
and
they
started
trying
to
regulate
Carbon
on
the
Clean
Air
hack,
which
it
never
was
intended
to
to
regulate
the
technology
wasn't
available
to
to
meet
the
you
know
the
standards
that
they
were
trying
to
force
as
far
as
natural
gas
and
coal-fired
power
plant
emissions
of
carbon,
and
so
that
that's
the
things
that
we
are
concerned
is
that
you
know
trying
to
say
that
technology
is
available
when
they
aren't
are
they're.
A
So
expensive
that
that,
in
essence,
forces
fuel
switching
by
utilities
because
of
the
of
the
cost
that
are
going
to
cause
problems
like
we
see
in
East
Kentucky,
with
the
with
the
huge
rate
increases
there
and
so
I
do
believe
that
the
fact
that
you're
bringing
up
some
of
these
issues
and
and
you're
willing
to
come
to
Kentucky
and
testify,
allow
us
to
ask
the
questions
that
we're
asking
and
and
to
to
voice.
A
Our
concerns,
as
many
of
us
have
done
here
today,
is
something
that
has
to
be
done,
and
it
gives
us
some
hope
that
at
least
maybe
someone
will
listen,
and
so,
on
behalf
of
the
committee.
We
certainly
appreciate
you
being
here.
Thank
you
so
much.
It's
been
one
of
the
best
meetings
that
I
can
remember
in
a
long
time.
So
thank.