►
From YouTube: Interim Joint Committee on Judiciary (6-8-23)
Description
Meeting start 00:00:00
Roll call 00:00:05
Introduction of New Members 00:01:13
Controlled Substances and Homicide 00:01:51
Exoneration and Compensation 00:51:05
Nonrecourse Consumer Legal Funding 01:26:05
A
Our
first
item
on
the
agenda
is
the
Controlled
Substances
and
homicide
discussion,
and
that
was
House
Bill
388
from
the
session
and
if
representative
Deanna,
Frazier,
Gordon
and
representative
John
Blanton
would
come
forward
with
their
guests
and
introduce
themselves
for
the
record
and
then
you
can
proceed.
Thank
you.
D
D
I
have
with
me,
I
have
guests
from
the
city
of
Richmond
Police
Department,
as
well
as
my
co-sponsor
representative
Blanton,
but
this
is
something
that
my
constituents
have
been
asking
us
for
in
probably
yours
as
well.
We're
not
making
good
progress
in
the
issues
of
opioid
abuse
and
drug
trafficking
and
20.
Other
states
in
some
way
have
enhanced
their
charges
dealing
in
this
area
and
so
they're
here
to
just
kind
of
discuss,
what's
happening
in
Madison
County
and
to
see
how
we
want
to
address
it
in
the
general
assembly.
E
D
E
Name
is
Rodney
Richardson
I'm,
the
chief
of
police
at
the
Richmond
Police
Department
in
Madison
County,
first
I'd
like
to
say
thanks
for
having
me
today,
it's
one
of
my
first
opportunities
to
address
a
committee.
So
this
is
a
big
moment
for
me
and
I
appreciate
the
time
that
you
are
taking
to
hear
this.
E
We
are.
We
are
in
sort
of
in
crisis
mode
in
Madison,
County,
specifically
the
city
of
Richmond,
and
when
it
comes
to
the
fatality
rate
for
overdoses,
the
city
of
Richmond
is
kind
of
the
leader
in
Madison,
County
and
and
I'm
going
to
throw
a
few
numbers
at
you.
Just
so
you
understand
what
we're
dealing
with,
but
in
Madison
County
in
2021
we
had
85
overdose
fatalities.
In
2020
we
had
68.
E
the
city
of
Richmond
alone
in
2021
had
48
of
those
and
in
2022
we
had
50
nearly
one
every
week.
Now,
that's
one
a
week
that
our
officers
have
to
respond
to
one
a
week
where
we're
finding
people
that
are
deceased
either
in
their
homes,
in
parking,
lots
and
cars
and
Tents
on
the
side
of
the
road,
wherever
we
can
find
them.
These
are
the
ones
that
are
reported
to
us
so
mind
you
when
I
give
you
these
numbers.
E
This
narcotic,
that
caused
their
death
and
lucky
enough
in
2019,
the
Kentucky
General
Assembly
changed
the
law,
which
gave
us
something
that
we
could
charge
him
with,
which
was
manslaughter
manslaughter
in
the
second
degree,
which
is
a
non-violent
felony
offense.
But
what
that
requires
is
some
type
of
payment
that
we
have
to
prove.
Renumeration
is
what
the
actual
statute
says.
E
E
But
when
we
explain
to
a
parent
to
a
mother
or
a
father
that
we
can
only
charge
the
suspect
that
sold
their
child
either
something
they
might
have,
thought
was
heroin
or
some
type
of
prescription
medication
with
manslaughter
and
that
the
offense
could
carry
five
to
ten
years.
At
Max,
but
this
being
a
first
offense,
we
didn't
know
how
it
was
going
to
be,
and,
of
course,
you
know
when
a
Law
changes
and
there's
new
cases
that
come
before
the
court.
E
There's
lessons
to
be
learned,
there's
interpretations.
So
we've
worked
through
a
lot
of
that.
Currently
now
we
have
about
15
individuals
that
we've
charged
with
manslaughter
to
the
second
degree
and
only
two
have
pled
guilty
to
that,
and
the
rest
have
either
been
dismissed
or
they're
still
pending.
E
Parents
are
upset,
and
I
can
only
imagine.
I
have
a
small
child,
but
I
can
only
imagine
how
the
parents
feel
when
we
tell
them
that
the
individual
that
caused
their
baby's
death
can
only
be
charged
manslaughter
and
not
murder.
They
just
can't
comprehend
why
it's
any
different.
So,
as
you
can
imagine,
I
am
in
very
much
support
of
388.
We
have
to
do
something
law.
E
Enforcement
has
to
have
a
tool
in
order
to
charge
these
individuals
to
hopefully
put
a
stop
to
what
we're
seeing
on
the
streets
of
Richmond
and
I've
asked
my
my
commander
of
Support
Services
major
Josh
hell
to
come
with
me
today
and
major
hell
is
over
the
support
side,
which
is
all
of
our
non-sworn
employees.
All
of
our
detectives,
narcotics
investigations,
task
forces
and
he
has
a
lot
of
direct
contact
with
family
members,
moms
and
dads
when
they
come
to
the
police
department
and
they're
mad
at
law
enforcement.
E
E
F
Yes,
there
you
go
well
good
morning,
as
Chief
Richardson
said,
my
name
is
Major
Josh
Hale
I
am
the
support
services
Commander
for
the
Richmond
Police
Department.
Thank
you
also
for
having
me.
This
is
also
my
first
time,
speaking
before
a
committee
like
this,
so
I'm
thankful
and
grateful
for
the
opportunity
to
do
so.
F
F
These
investigations
to
walk
you
through
what
an
overdose
death
investigation
will
look
like
I'll
just
paint
the
picture
for
you,
because
I
think
that's
very
important
for
you
to
have
that
patrol
officer
will
get
the
call
we
get
the
call
through
9-1-1
or
through
our
non-emergency
number,
and
this
is
just
the
Richmond
police
department.
So
I
can't
speak
for
other
agencies,
but
I
would
suspect
it's
very
similar
to
other
agencies.
The
Richmond
police
department
will
get
the
call
through
our
Dispatch
Center
at
in
Madison
County
Patrol
will
respond.
F
We
will
find
a
deceased
individual
there.
We
will
immediately
begin
a
an
investigation
there.
We
contact
a
supervisor.
A
supervisor
will
show
up
on
scene.
That
is
at
the
point.
When
usually
the
coroner
also
shows
up
on
scene,
loved
ones
will
start
arriving
on
scene.
We
have
to
keep
the
loved
ones
out
of
the
scene.
F
We
have
to
make
sure
that
the
crime
scene
does
not
become
contaminated
so
that
we
can
further
investigate
properly
what
we
need
to
do
to
make
sure
that
we
are
not
doing
anything
in
an
improper
manner
so
that
we
can
prosecute
people
as
they
you
know.
Should
we
be
able
to
find
out
if,
if
there
is
a
suspect
throughout
this
process,
the
detectives
are
called,
they
will
show
up
on
scene
and
from
there
an
investigation
will
begin
the
patrol
officers.
F
They
are
a
part
of
this,
but
the
detectives
will
then
take
over
the
investigation.
Richmond
Police
Department
is
one
of
the
first
agencies
throughout
the
Commonwealth
of
Kentucky
to
investigate
overdose
deaths
as
a
homicide
or
as
a
homicide.
Investigation
would
be
investigated,
so
we
are
looking
for
things
that
would
be
drug
paraphernalia
cell
phones,
any
information
that
would
lead
us
to
what
caused
the
death
of
this
individual.
Meanwhile,
the
family
is
still
standing
outside
a
lot
of
times
or
is
at
the
hospital.
If
they've
gone
to
the
hospital,
the
family
is
standing
outside
wanting
answers.
F
They
sometimes
are
not
waiting
patiently
many
times
they're,
not
waiting
patiently.
My
detectors
are
still
working
vigorously
put
into
perspective.
Along
with
this,
the
challenge
that
law
enforcement
faces
with
Personnel
issues.
Law
enforcement
is
not
getting
the
recruitment
that
we
once
had
and
you
don't
have
law
enforcement
having
what
they
used
to
have
for
the
law
enforcement
officers.
That
would
stay
forever
20
years
and
I
think
Chief
you've
been
here
for
how
many
years
now
26.
F
We
don't
we
don't
get
that,
so
you
don't
have
that
often
as
much
anymore.
So
now
we
have
Personnel
issues,
so
we
Face
Manpower
issues
also
along
with
this
I,
have
been
through
in
20
years,
I've
seen
the
changes
in
the
drug
culture
to
where
now
we
went
from
marijuana
and
cocaine
and
crack
cocaine
to
now.
We
are
dealing
with
multiple
things
like,
of
course,
crystal
methamphetamine,
heroin
and
Fentanyl,
and
that
is
the
majority
of
what
we
are
now
dealing
with
and
again
on.
These
crime
scenes
these
families.
They
want
answers.
F
So
when
we
investigate
these
things-
and
we
prosecute
them
many
times
again,
either
the
prosecution
is
not
able
to
because
of
the
law
prosecute
or
because
we're
not
able
to
prove
with
the
manslaughter
we're
not
able
to
prove
that
the
drug
dealer
provided
this,
so
you
know
House
Bill
388
is
is
something
that
would
make
it
a
little
bit
stronger
and
again
with
the
going
back
to
the
families.
Sometimes
they
even
even
if
we
can
convict
or
even
if
they
do
plead
guilty,
that's
still
not
enough.
They
want
murder.
F
They
want
again
and
I
can
never
give
an
answer
to
a
grieving
mother
or
a
grieving
father
when
I
don't
have
that
I
can
never
bring
a
child
back.
I
can
never
bring
a
father
back.
I
can
never
bring
a
mother
back,
but
you
know
what
we
can
do
is
we
can
try
our
best
to
change
the
way
we
do
business
to
where
we
can
be
more
effective
in
the
way
we
handle
these
drug
dealers.
F
I
I,
don't
really
know
I
just
kind
of
wanted
to
give
that
statement.
I
wanted
to
give
the
humanistic
side
of
things
I
wanted
to
paint
that
picture
for
you.
I
do
open
myself
up
to
questions
from
you.
If,
if
I
can
answer
any
questions,
I
would
welcome
that
because
I
want
you
to
understand
where
we
come
from
as
detectives
and
as
administrators
trying
to
handle
this
problem.
I
want
you
to
see
from
our
perspective
so
that
you
can
have
that
that
window
into
what
law
enforcement
is
facing
in
today's
law
enforcement
culture.
G
Yes,
thank
you
Mr
chairman
members
of
the
committee.
Let
me
reiterate
how
important
this
tool
is
for
our
law
enforcement
communities
to
be
able
to
investigate
these
crimes.
You
know
often
we
here
in
the
general
assembly
from
people,
and
we
talk
about
that.
We
we
want
to
be
cautious,
because
we
want
to
go
after
the
Bad
actors,
but
we
want
to
get
help
for
those
that
have
problems.
This
is
a
tool
to
go
after
the
Bad
actors.
G
This
is
the
tool
to
get
off
the
street,
the
people
who
are
feeding
this
poison
to
our
family,
to
our
friends,
to
our
neighbors,
to
have
something
that
they
can,
with
some
teeth
to
it,
that
they
can
charge
these
individuals
with
and,
quite
frankly,
I
can
go
back
to
the
90s
and
I
wish.
Personally
that
we'd
had
this
statute
back
then,
as
there
were
multiple
occasions
during
my
days
and
special
investigations,
we
could
charge
people
with
this
statute
and
it
was
unavailable
now.
E
G
There
will
be
comments
made
says
well.
This
will
cause
people
not
to
report
overdose
deaths
because
they're
afraid
of
getting
in
trouble.
Well,
if
you
understand
the
law
enforcement
culture,
you
will
find
that,
if
you're
with
somebody
and
they
overdose-
and
somebody
else
gave
you
sold
you
the
drugs,
all
you
got
to
do
is
tell
them
where
you
got
the
drugs
we're
not
interested.
They
are
not
I
still
refer
to
us
as
we
we're
not
interested
in
that
user.
G
We're
interested
in
that
dealer
the
one
that's
putting
the
poison
out
on
the
street,
the
one
that's
killing
our
family
members,
and
so
this
is
another
tool
that
will
help
law
enforcement
to
get
these
people
out
of
our
communities
and
make
it
safer
for
our
children,
our
neighbors
and
our
communities.
So
I
I
encourage
you
all
when,
when
we
get
to
session
in
January
that
that
you
be
willing
to
support
this
because
every
one
of
you
all
sitting
here,
every
one
of
your
communities
are
impacted
by
the
drug
problem.
G
H
You
I
appreciate
you,
representatives
for
bringing
this
bill
and
officers
for
just
for
the
work
you
do
and
for
being
here
today,
I
have
a
simple
question,
partially
answered:
I
think
you
said:
15
have
been
charged.
Only
two
have
been
have
been
found
guilty.
The
rest
have
been
dismissed
or
pending.
How
many
have
been
dismissed
of
that
15.
E
H
E
Not
necessarily
no
ma'am,
it
could
be
for
other
reasons,
prosecute
the
prosecutor
may
have
some
other
reason
why
that
they
don't
pursue,
it
could
be,
as
I
stated
earlier,
a
failure
to
indict
on
the
grand
jury
side.
This
was
new.
You
know
we
had
just
started
this,
so
we
we
kind
of
we
kind
of
we're
the
first
ones
like
he
said
to
try
it
so
when
we
brought
it
to
our
court
system.
E
A
girlfriend
might
give
it
to
her
boyfriend.
Drug
dealers
use
third
parties
now
to
drop
off
drugs,
so
you
could
make
a
drug
transaction
online.
You
can
pay
with
a
cash
app
and
another
individual
can
either
deliver
the
drugs
or
they
could
be
placed
in
a
location
where
you
come
pick
them
up,
so
it
can
become
difficult
and
of
course
we
don't
have
that
individual
to
interview.
After
it's
occurred,
we
can
only
go
on
what
we
recover
evidentiary,
which
is
sometimes
text,
messages,
Facebook
messages,
and
what's
that
stupid,
Snapchat
the.
E
Sorry
I
didn't
mean
to
call
it.
It
causes
us
more
problems
than
you
know,
but
you
got
Snapchat
and
all
these
other
social
media
devices
that
people
use
to
communicate.
So
we
really
got
I
mean
if
we
can.
If
we
can
have
a
case
where
I
say
hey
Josh,
would
you
bring
me
a
gram
of
heroin
for
forty
dollars
and
I?
Say
yeah
I'll
bring
it
to
you
and
then
he
texts
me
back
and
says.
Thanks
for
the
forty
dollars,
be
careful,
that's
some
hot
stuff,
hey
I
haven't
heard
from
you.
E
E
A
H
E
E
H
E
J
I
can
remember
being
in
the
this
Judiciary
Committee
when
Senator
Webb
was
a
representative
and
she
was
a
freshman
she's,
not
on
this
committee.
I,
don't
think,
but
that
was
a
long
time
ago.
It
had
to
be
like
1998
99,
something
like
that
and
we
were
talking
about.
She
was
talking
about
how
Oxycontin
was
killing
her
District
in
her
area.
J
We've
been
talking
about
this
stuff
for
23
years,
at
least,
and
here
we
are
again
and
guys
come
in
and
they
say
this
is
the
tools
we
need
and
it's
just
like
a
revolving
cycle
of
what
needs
to
be
done
and
how
much
money.
This
is
a
rhetorical
question
and
I
am
coming
to
a
question.
How
much
money
has
the
feds,
the
state
and
local
governments
paid
attacking
this
stuff,
and
is
it
doing
any
good
I
mean
we
have
a?
J
E
Sir,
we
we
do
get
a
lot
of
stats
from
them.
They
Supply
us
with
stats.
It
helps
me
to
know
what
the
you
know:
I'm,
here's
the
we
have
a
great
Corner
in
our
County
and
we
work
really
well
together.
So
I
I
know
what
the
ongoing
stats
is,
but
they
do
Supply
us
with
a
lot
of
information
in
regards
to
what
age
group,
the
number
of
fentanyl
versus
methamphetamine
and
County
stats
that
we
that
we
need
to
know
we're
on
an
uptick.
E
J
F
F
I,
don't
know
that
we'll
ever
win
the
fight,
but
I
don't
think
it's
ever
one
that
we
would
stop
fighting
because
I've
seen
all
the
children
and
I
haven't
seen
all
the
children,
but
I've
dealt
with
lots
of
children.
I've
dealt
with
mothers
and
fathers
and
husbands
and
wives,
and
it
goes
on
and
on
and
on,
and
my
detectives
are
called
out
at
all
hours
of
the
night
and
all
weekends
and
holidays
and
and
so
no
I,
don't
believe
that
we
will
ever
that's,
never
a
fight
that
we
should
stop.
Never
let.
G
Me
respond
to
representative
braster's
question:
is
this
going
to
be
the
piece
of
legislation,
the
law
that
goes
into
effect?
That's
going
to
solve
our
problem?
No!
No!
It's
another
Tool
we're
not
going
to
arrest
our
way
out
of
this
problem,
but
it
is
a
part
of
controlling
and
trying
to
bring
things
down
just
as
getting
people
re
into
recovery
centers
and
helping
to
get
those
mental
health
issues
that
they
need
to
under
control.
G
G
So
if
we
take
away,
if
you
will
the
fear
of
some
type
of
of
of
punishment
for
these
people
that
are
dealing,
then
they're
just
going
to
go
even
more
wide,
open
and
they're
going
to
be
pushing
it
even
harder
and
we're
going
to
see
more
and
more
drugs
streaming
in
from
South
America
and
other
countries,
that's
killing
our
people,
and
so
no.
This
is
not
going
to
fix
the
problem,
but
it's
certainly
going
to
help
and
it
it
takes
a
a
multi-faceted
approach
and
law
enforcement
is
definitely
part
of
that
approach.
G
K
I
really
I
like
what
you're
trying
to
do.
I
just
have
a
a
question:
I'm,
not
an
attorney,
but
when
I
read
this,
it
makes
me
wonder
when
he
or
she
unlawfully
administers.
If
I
give
a
prescription
allergen
medicine
to
somebody
because
they're
having
an
allergy
fit
and
they
have
a
bad
reaction,
they
die.
G
G
E
Might
representative
might
help
a
little
bit
to
understand
that
in
a
situation
and
I
and
I
think
I
I
follow
you
you're
saying
that
if,
if
I
wanted
to
help
out
a
friend
of
mine
and
I
gave
them
what
I
thought
was
Vicodin,
but
it
ended
up
being
Fentanyl
and
it
caused
their
death?
Is
that
what
you're
saying
would
they
be
prosecuted?
No.
D
C
C
One
I
think
that
representative
bratcher
spoke
about
the
overdose
numbers
and
we
just
got
a
report
this
year
from
kiprick
the
Kentucky
injury
prevention,
Research
Center,
that
actually
in
Kentucky
in
the
past
year,
overdose
deaths
have
decreased
by
five
percent,
and
so
one
of
my
concerns
is
I'm,
not
sure,
where
I
believe
that
the
things
that
we
have
been
doing
as
a
state
have
obviously
been
assisting
in
helping.
We
do
need
to
do
some
more
things.
C
C
F
Representative
I,
don't
have
those
in
front
of
me
I'm
certain
that
those
are
probably
attainable
throughout
the
course.
That
would
be
something
we
would
have
to
actually
probably
do
a
little
research
on.
We
only
pulled
the
ones
for
Madison
County
for
us,
as
we
came
here
and
spoke,
but
I
will
just
to
answer
your
question
a
little
bit
further.
Thank
you
for
your
service
to
Madison
County,
also
happy
to
hear
a
Madison
County
and
one
of
the
things
that
you
were
talking
about
being
from
Madison
County.
F
One
of
the
concerns
I
have
is
that
Kentucky
has
always
been
one
of
the
leaders
in
law
enforcement
and
leading
the
way
in
some
of
the
things
that
we
do.
One
of
the
concerns
that
I
have,
and
one
of
the
things
that
we
see
especially
my
detectives,
is
that
we
see
people
coming
in
and
setting
up
shops
from
other
locations
coming
into
Kentucky
and
setting
up
and
they're
not
being
prosecuted
as
such,
and
then
they
can
just
go
back
home
and
act
like
nothing
happened.
F
M
If
some
commentary
and
a
two-part
question
representative,
Blanton
and
representative
Fraser
Gordon,
thank
you
all
for
bringing
this
I
generally
agree
with
the
concept
on
what
you're
trying
to
do
here,
because
I
believe
that
dope
dealers
that
are
peddling
poison
for
profit
and
killing
off
our
young
people,
you
know
we
need
to
have
the
tools
in
the
toolbox
to
enact
appropriate
Justice
on
them.
So
I
I,
absolutely
agree
with
this.
M
I
have
learned
practicing
law
in
in
different
capacities
that
the
intersection
of
addiction
and
the
criminal
justice
system
is
complex
and
multifaceted,
and
sometimes
the
solutions
aren't
always
as
simple
as
we
would
like
them
to
be.
I
do
believe
that
we
have
gained
ground,
but
this
is
always
going
to
be
an
issue
that
we're
going
to
have
to
tackle
so
I
think
it's
probably
short-sighted.
To
think
that
we're
you
know
we're
never
going
to
have
you
know
crime
in
society,
or
you
know,
lawlessness
or
some
sort
of
you
know
addiction
problem,
but
I
guess.
A
N
Thank
you
chairman.
Thank
you
all
so
much
for
this
proposal,
because
I
agree
with
you
and
everyone
in
this
room
I
think
that
drugs
are
a
Scourge
on
our
communities
within
the
last
week,
someone
required
9-1-1
assistance
in
front
of
my
home
and
they
they
were
asleep
in
their
car
and
could
not
be
roused.
So
this
is
every
Community,
it's
all
across
the
state.
These
are
our
friends
and
our
neighbors
they're
people
that
we
care
about.
N
My
question
is
a
simple
one.
You've
mentioned
that
we
already
have
the
second
degree
manslaughter
statute
and
that
the
problem
with
that
statute
is
proving
the
remuneration,
the
payment
that
has
occurred
with
it.
That
statute
be
a
better
tool
if
we
simply
struck
through
remuneration
portion
and
said
unlawful
distribution
of
a
schedule,
one
or
schedule
two
substance.
If
that's
the
proximate
cause
of
death.
E
Well,
that
would
help
us
right
now.
I
can't
disagree
with
you
there,
but
we
we
need
to
have
something
a
little
stronger
than
a
non-violent
offense,
which
you
know
they
would
be
eligible
to
be
released
pretty
soon
and
I
wouldn't
want
a
mother
or
a
family
member
to
pass
that
individual
on
the
street
just
a
few
years
after
or
months
after
that
occurred.
E
So
a
first
offense
class,
C,
felony
and
I
don't
have
the
exact
numbers
from
the
Department
of
Corrections,
but
they're
not
going
to
serve
that
entire
length.
That
is
a
very
short
term
and
I
think
we
need
something
that
would
send
a
message
to
those
individuals
that
are
responsible
for
this.
That
Kentucky
takes
it
seriously
and
we're
doing
everything
we
can
to
put
a
stop
to
it.
A
N
N
N
They
thought
they
were
too
cool.
They
thought
that
they
would
never
experience
the
consequences
of
their
actions.
They
thought
they
were
going
to
live
forever.
So
when
I
think
about
the
people
who
are
doing
these
things?
Yes,
of
course,
some
of
them
are
these
people
from
other
places
who
have
come
to
set
up
shop,
and
perhaps
that
tool
is
useful
for
them,
but
I
wouldn't
want
that
tool
used
against
the
18
to
21
year
olds.
D
And
I
think
for
today's
purposes.
You
know
this
is
something
that
we're
beginning
the
discussion
and
so
all
of
the
points
that's
been
brought
forward
today.
You
know
we
need
to
reconsider
those
and
I
referenced
earlier.
Arkansas
has
a
particularly
good
bill
that
is
they've
titled
it
death
by
delivery
when
they
spell
out
some
of
the
accomplice
scenarios
and
that
type
of
thing,
and
so,
but
still
from
the
point
of
the
family's,
you
know,
there's
really
no
age
sex
race.
You
know
this
is
about.
This
is
about
life
and
death.
G
A
G
Two
things
because
we
do
have
several
new
members
joining
the
committee
and
for
our
audience
to
understand
when
we
say
a
non-violent
offense
in
Kentucky,
although
it
may
be
a
Class
C,
and
we
hear
five
to
ten
years,
that
doesn't
mean
they
spin.
If,
let's
say
they
get
the
minimum
five
years,
they
don't
spend
five
years
in
prison.
Okay
in
Kentucky
non-violent
you
become
eligible
for
pro
after
20
percent,
not
85
percent.
Like
the
federal
system,
20
of
your
sentence
is
served,
you
become
eligible
for
parole.
G
So
if
you
get
a
five-year
sentence,
you
become
eligible
for
parole
within
12
months.
So
let's
understand
that
it's
not
a
full
five
years
and
I
understand
what
you're
saying
about
the
young
folks-
and
you
know,
but
I
also
am
one
of
these
people
that
I
don't
ever
want
to
forget
the
victim.
You
know
they
may
be
18
19
years
old,
but
if
they're
selling
drugs,
they're
adults,
you
know
and
if
they're
choosing
even
to
support
their
habit,
they're
selling
drugs
and
it
kills
somebody
else-
there
has
to
be
accountability.
G
A
You
thank
you.
Do
you
think
this
bill
adequately
addresses
the
accomplice
liability
that
I
think
you
had
reference
with
the
Arkansas
statute
and
I
have
read
that
and
it's
a
little
bit
more
in
depth
with
accomplice,
liability
and
I
know
the
officers
discussed
where
a
third
party,
a
lot
of
the
times
is
used
to
transfer
the
drug
to
the
victim.
D
Yes,
thank
you,
chairman
for
the
question
and
I
think
we
will
need
to
look
into
some
of
those
situations
again.
This
was
the
bill
drop
that
was
filed
last
session
and
it
was
just
basically
a
conversation
starter
and
it
was
purposely
written
in
a
broad
manner,
so
to
be
able
to
Encompass
a
lot
of
these
different
situations
and
scenarios.
Okay,.
A
O
Chair
Elliott,
thank
you
for
allowing
me
to
speak
today.
You're
welcome,
I,
appreciate
it
and
thank
you.
Members
for
listening.
I
want
to
start
by
saying
that
I
I
do
believe
in
the
sincerity
of
the
intent
behind
the
bill.
Representative
Blanton's,
a
friend
of
mine
I,
had
the
pleasure
today
of
talking
to
Chief
Richardson
and
major
Hale
and
I
have
no
doubt
that
what
they
want
to
do
is
to
curb
the
scourge
of
Overdose
deaths
that
we
have
in
this
state.
O
Having
said
that,
I
don't
believe
that
388,
as
it
was
numbered
last
year,
does
that
and
for
a
variety
of
reasons.
I
did
have
sent
a
link
to
an
article
by
the
drug
Alliance
drug
policy.
Alliance
entitled
in
overdose
death
is
not
murder.
Why
drug-induced
homicide
laws
are
counterproductive
and
by
counterproductive
they
mean
they're,
increasing
the
number
of
overdoses
not
decreasing,
and
then,
if
you
find
a
link
in
that
and
I
did
not
print
it
out,
it's
I
didn't
have
a
stapler
big
enough
to
even
staple
the
report.
O
Imagine
I
had
a
child
who
recently
graduated
college,
so
I
tend
to
think
in
terms
of
children
now
as
college
aged,
even
though
they're
over
18.
I
get
it
they're
still
children
and
and
I
think,
okay,
what
if
there's
a
party
going
on
at
UK
or
EKU
or
Western,
and
somebody
brings
a
blunt
or
a
marijuana
joint
to
the
party
and
a
child
is
going
to
try
this
for
the
first
time.
O
O
O
388
says
that
it's
unlawful,
if
you
administer,
deliver,
distribute
or
sell,
we
tend
to
think
of
the
person
Upstream.
That's
the
The
Mastermind
behind
this.
If
you
want
to
use
the
word,
Mastermind
I
think
it's
very
weak-minded
individual,
but
whoever
it
is,
that's
decided
they're
going
to
make
the
big
profit
whatever
cartel
or
or
wannabe
cartel
who's.
O
Trying
to
do
this
they're
up
the
stream,
but
the
Here
and
Now
is
somebody
who
just
gave
somebody
a
marijuana
cigarette
and
a
person
died
and
the
way
388
is
written
that
delivery
of
giving
it
to
them
is
sufficient
for
them
to
be
charged
with
murder.
Which
brings
me
to
this
point:
there's
no
men's
Raya
here,
there's
no
level
of
culpability.
The
way
388
was
written.
It's
a
carve
out.
You
have
subsection
a
in
Murder,
which
is
intentional
murder.
I
intend
to
kill
you
and
I'm
going
to
I.
O
Do
it
and
I'm
charged
with
intentional
murder.
Subsection
B
was
aggravated
wanting
us
a
person
acts
wantonly
and
with
extreme
disregard
to
the
value
of
human
life.
That
was
subsection
B.
You
could
be
charged
with
murder
under
either
one
of
those.
The
way
it's
written
old
B
becomes
C
and
there's
a
new
B
and
it's
absolute
liability.
It
doesn't
have
a
men's
Raya
in
the
hierarchy
we
have
in.
We
have
intentional,
we
have
knowing
we
have
wanton,
that's
aggravated.
We
have
aggravated
Waters
and
we
have
Reckless.
O
This
imposes
the
penalty
of
murder
for
someone
who
has
less
mental
menstrual
culpability
than
someone
who
we
charge
with
Reckless
homicide,
it's
less
than
that,
and
so
a
person
can
be
charged.
If
there's
even
handed
treatment
of
the
law,
then
what
you're
going
to
see
is
the
person
who
passes
that
marijuana
doesn't
have
to
know
that
it
has
fentanyl
doesn't
have
to
intend
anything
they're,
just
passing
the
joint,
and
now
they
would
be
guilty
of
murder,
because
the
only
thing
this
does
is
was
there
a
death?
Did
you
deliver
the
drug?
O
Doesn't
matter
what
you
knew
doesn't
matter
what
you
intended.
That
is
amazing.
We
to
have
a
strict
liability
class,
a
felony
would
be
unheard
of
and
then
there's
a
pragmatic
issue.
I
went
and
pulled
the
numbers
and
they're
awful
they're,
just
terrible,
there's
20
2127
overdose
deaths
in
Kentucky
last
year.
O
O
O
O
What
you
would
have,
though,
is
21
27
homicides
opened
if
you
had
even
application
of
the
law
and
if
you
didn't
have
even
applications
law,
I
I
heard
my
friend
representative
Blanton
say:
well,
that's
not
how
the
police
operate
well,
number
one:
the
children,
the
kids,
who
are
find
themselves
with
somebody
who
just
slumped
over
and
missed
them.
They
probably
aren't
going
to
know
that.
O
But
even
if
that's
the
case,
if
we're
saying
we're
not
interested
in
Prosecuting
for
murder,
these
college
students,
we
just
want
the
person
Upstream,
then
you
have
passed
a
law
that
is
not
going
to
be
given
even-handed
treatment.
It's
going
to
be
well,
maybe
in
this
instance,
but
not
in
this
instance,
depends
on
who
you
are,
and
we
don't
want
to
go
there.
O
27
homicides
opened,
that's
gonna,
that's
gonna,
be
historical
funding
for
the
police
and
then,
as
they
go
to
the
court
system,
because
prosecutors,
defense,
attorneys
judges,
there's
going
to
be
a
lot
of
that.
This
bill
won't
do
what
it's
intended
to
do.
It
may
well
result
in
an
increase
as
people
quit
com.
You
know
our
Good
Samaritan
law
only
protects
you
against
218a
offenses.
O
It
does
not
protect
you
against
other
offenses
outside
218a
and
this
would
be
outside
of
218a,
and
so
you
may
find
a
lesson
of
people
willing
to
pick
up
the
phone
call
9-1-1
and
wait
there
till
the
police
get
there.
The
paramedics
get
there
because
they're
afraid
they're
going
to
be
charged
with
murder
and
they
could
be
a
police
officer,
may
elect
not
to
prosecutor
may
elect
not
to,
but
they
could
be,
and
then
the
only
thing
that
has
to
be
proven
is
this
person
died
and
you
gave
them
the
drug.
O
A
Thank
you,
Mr,
West
and
I
know.
We
had
numerous
other
questions,
we're
not
going
to
have
time
to
get
to
those
but
I'm
hopeful
that
you
will
give
those
questions
to
staff
or
myself
and
we'll
get
those
to
the
appropriate
parties.
Thank
you
for
your
testimony.
We're
going
to
move
on
now
to
exoneration
compensation,
which
is
House
Bill,
571,
representative
Jason
nemas.
P
Chairman,
thank
you
for
calling
this
bill.
I'm
I'll
give
a
quick
introduction
and
then
pass
it
over
to
the
to
the
experts
in
this
area,
but
I
was
as
I
was
driving
and
thank
you
for
allowing
me
to
to
be
called
at
this
time.
I
was
in
Clark
circuit
court.
This
morning,
I
was
delayed,
I
was
driving
thinking
about.
Why
is
this
bill
so
important
to
me
and
Gerald
I
think
most
important
things
we
can
learn
as
a
child.
P
I
remember
an
anecdote
when
I
was
a
little
boy,
throwing
the
ball
against
my
house
and
it
bounced
back
and
and
it
hit
the
the
neighbor's
window,
Mr
Mr
Schneider's
window
and
my
father
I
didn't
mean
to
hit
it,
but
my
father
allowed
me.
He
made
me
at
the
time,
but
I
looked
back.
He
allowed
me
to
not
only
pay
for
that
window,
but
to
help
Mr
Schneider
replace
the
window.
I
didn't
do
anything
wrong.
I
was
playing
as
a
boy.
P
P
It
is
also
good
for
the
state,
because
it's
important
that
we
model
the
right
type
of
behavior
and
when
the
state
makes
a
mistake
even
unintentionally,
so
it
is
right.
It
is
just
that
we
put
these
that
we
that
we
pay
for
in
some
way
the
consequences
of
our
unintentional
actions
in
some
cases,
so
with
that
prologue
I
will
turn
it
over
to
people
who
are
experts
in
this
area.
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman.
I
And
thank
you
for
giving
the
Kentucky
Innocence
Project
the
opportunity
to
address
this
important
issue.
What
we
would
like
to
preface
everything
with
is
the
fact
that
Kentucky
is
only
one
of
12
states
in
the
United
States.
That
does
not
have
a
wrongful
conviction.
Compensation
bill,
38
States,
as
well
as
the
District
of
Columbia
and
the
federal
government
compensate
individuals
that
are
wrongly
convicted
and
I.
Think
everybody
here
agrees.
The
wrongful
conviction
is
a
tragedy
and
folks
assume
that
it
ends
when
somebody's
released.
I
But
that's
really
when
chapter
two
of
our
exonery's
tragic
life.
It
opens
into
a
second
chapter
for
them,
because
the
toehold
that
most
of
us
get
after
maybe
10
or
20
years
of
developing
our
education
and
our
work,
experience
and
finding
housing
and
and
buying
a
car
and
creating
roots
in
a
community
they've
been
stripped
of
that
opportunity
to
do
those
things.
I
So
many
of
our
exoneries
spend
not
just
a
decade
but
two
decades
or
in
excess
of
two
decades
in
prison,
and
some
of
them
go
in
when
they're
30,
40
years
old
and
they're
coming
out
of
prison
when
they're,
60
or
65
years
old,
and
even
the
aunts
and
the
uncles
that
knew
them
when
they
were
younger
that
were
part
of
their
life.
They've
moved
on
they've
passed,
they're,
not
even
available
parents
may
be
aging
and
are
requiring
assistance
from
their
children
and
they
can't
support
their
adult
children.
I
So
we
have
exonerees
literally,
who
have
walked
out
of
prison
with
ailing
Health
at
age
60.
Some
of
them
didn't
even
survive
long
enough
to
be
able
to
file,
suits
and
see
civil
suits
advance
in
the
federal
courts.
Even
when
there
was
egregious
Behavior
by
the
police
and
terrible
conduct
by
local
law
enforcement.
I
So
we're
here
asking
that
Kentucky
at
least
rise
to
the
level
with
other
38
other
states
have
done
and
we're
asking
that
house
bill
571
be
considered
as
an
important
part
of
making
an
exonere's
lives
whole
again.
So
we've
asked
three
of
our
exoneries
to
come
and
to
address
the
committee
and
to
talk
a
little
bit
about
what
life
was
like
for
them
after
they
were
released
from
prison.
So
I'd
like
to
have
Mr
Von
Allman
speak
first.
R
R
R
R
The
victim
was
noticed
the
gas
staring
at
her
all
night.
She
was
able
to
come
put
together
this
composite,
drawing
very
accurate
for
this
guy.
The
police,
the
the
crime,
occurred
on
Friday
night
Saturday
night.
This
picture
with
this
composite
was
circulated
Sunday
night.
This
is
me,
I
walk
into
the
very
same
bar
without
a
clue
what
was
going
on,
but
that
resulted
in
a
conviction
and
a
sentence
of
30
years
right
away.
I
started
trying
to
prove
my
innocence.
R
R
I
get
out
right
away.
I
encounter
the
application
process
and
the
Box
check
that
box,
if
you've
been
convicted
of
a
felony
I
knew
I
had
to
devise
some
kind
of
strategy
around
that
box,
avoiding
the
box
was
it,
but
I
felt
some
conviction
in
that
and
I
posed.
The
question
to
my
parole
officer
do
I,
have
to
tell
my
employee
employers
that
I
am
a
convicted
felon.
R
He
responded
very
angrily,
and
this
was
before
the
sex
offense
registry
very
angry.
He
said
if
you
don't
tell
them
that
you're
a
convicted
sex
offender
I'm
coming
down
there
and
telling
myself
that
started
when
I
put
in
application
and
when
handed
to
someone-
and
they
would
say
yes,
can
you
start
tomorrow?
R
R
R
They
finally
moved
me
over
to
another
job
and
began
to
realize.
I
was
an
asset
for
them.
I
found
out
later
that
from
the
office
where
the
message
was
work
him
so
hard.
He
quits
I
didn't
quit.
I
finally
worked
my
way
into
an
apprenticeship
program
and
became
successful.
As
a
plumber,
16
years
elapsed,
I'll
pick
up
the
newspaper
one
day
and
there's
an
article
about
the
Kentucky
Innocence
Project
and
I'm
wondering
where
did
they
come
from
and
when
did
they
start?
R
R
R
This
is
not
a
bill
that
should
have
any
opposition,
and
if
you
disagree
with
that,
I
ask
you
to
go
back
to
your
districts
and
ask
any
member
of
your
District
if
they
were
jailed
for
one
day
wrongfully,
should
they
be
compensated
and
then
I
ask
you
all
to
take
those
responses.
Come
back
fully
supports
this
bill
sign
on
as
a
co-sponsor
and
let's
get
it
passed.
Thank
you.
S
S
It
was
difficult
to
get
employment
being
after
getting
out
of
prison
being
a
convicted
felon,
and
so
once
I
was
exonerated
I
thought
things
would
be
a
lot
different
for
me
in
this
situation,
but
it
really
wasn't
just
like
Mr
van
almond
I
had
hundreds
of
applications.
Excuse
me
hundreds
of
applications,
several
interviews
that
all
ended
up
in
the
same
facet.
You
know
Mr
Chandler.
Unfortunately
we
cannot
employ
you
because
of
the
nature
of
your
crime.
S
I
had
been
convicted
of
a
manslaughter
and
robbery,
and
so
if
when
when
I
was
released,
I
I
made
parole
and
so
I
had
to
serve
another
seven
years
on
parole
as
a
criminal,
but
once
my
exoneration
happened,
I
thought
that
those
things
would
turn
around
and
so
having
this
Compensation
bill.
You
have
to
understand
that
the
jobs
that
we
have
to
go
and
seek
we're
not
going
to
get
those
jobs.
As
being
you
know,
a
regular
citizen,
it's
not
going
to
happen
that
way.
S
We
have
to
have
special
attention
for
some
of
these
things
that
we're
going
through,
especially
with
the
jobs
like
right
now.
I
have
a
non-profit
that
Services
the
Aftercare
for
exoneries.
It's
called
the
Chandler
project
and
so
I
put
forth
my
own
efforts
in
my
own
money
to
try
and
help
come
back
what
we
go
through
as
exonerees,
not
just
the
employment
but
the
mental
Health
that
we
all
go
through.
S
S
I
felt
like
I
could
see
the
walls
I
could
see
the
fence.
I
could
hear
the
keys
I
could
feel
being
in
prison
in
this
moment
and
actually
I
was
having
a
black
blackout
like,
and
so
this
is
just
one
of
the
hurdles
that
we
have
to
go
through
and
come
back,
not
just
employment,
but
on
the
mental
side
too,
and
as
Susan
had
depicted
that
a
lot
of
the
exoneries
that
get
out
sometimes
their
age
limit
does
not
allow
them
to
go
back
into
a
Workforce.
S
They've
spent
too
much
time
in
prison,
and
so
then
you
don't
have
a
Social
Security
set
up.
You
don't
have
anything
for
that
individual,
so
that
is
where
this
bill
comes
into
place
at
is
to
compensate
for
all
of
the
time
that
that
wrongful
conviction
took
up,
and
so
along
with
johnetta
and
there's
other
exoneries
in
this
room
right
now
we
suffered
a
lot
going
through
what
we've
been
through
and
I,
don't
feel
like
we're,
we're
really
taking
into
accountability
for
what
we've
suffered
and
so
moving
forward.
S
Q
Hello
is
don't
like
for
you,
I
want
to
please
to
the
map
that
is
on
your
screen.
These
are
just
some
of
the
exonerees
that
are
in
Kentucky.
Some
of
them
are
in
the
room
sitting
behind
you
right
now.
Some
of
them
has
passed
away,
and
since
this
is
my
second
time
like
I,
said
speaking,
if
you
all
could
just
maybe
research
their
cases,
because
it's
important
for
their
voices
to
be
heard
too
honorable
memories
of
Honor
honorable
members
of
the
Judiciary
Committee,
my
name
is
johnetta
Carr
and
I'm.
Q
Your
constituent
I
am
here
today
to
share
with
you
my
horroring
story
of
being
wrongfully
convicted
and
how
the
Injustice
has
impacted.
My
life.
At
16
years
old
I
was
taken
to
an
interrogation
room
without
parental
consent
for
11
and
a
half
hours
for
a
crime.
I
did
not
commit
or
have
anything
to
do
with
in
an
attempt
to
coerce
a
false
confession.
Out
of
me,
I
was
verbally
abused
by
the
police.
Q
Q
On
my
18th
birthday,
I
was
transferred
to
the
jail
where
I
sat
close
to
another
year
and
started.
Giving
up
I
hope
that
I
could
prove
my
innocence
before
trial.
I
was
told,
I
had
to
enter
a
plea
or
face
the
possibility
of
death.
I
was
advised
by
accepting
the
effort
plea,
I
would
be
maintaining
my
innocence.
Q
I
ended
up
spending
a
total
of
40
long,
four
long,
unjust
years
in
jails
and
prisons,
also
serving
out
nine
years
on
parole
in
2019
through
the
Kentucky
Innocence
Project
I
became
the
youngest
of
23
kentuckians
to
be
exonerated
the
first
known
wrongful
conviction
in
Kentucky
dated
back
to
1988.
William
Virgil
spent
28
years
in
prison
for
a
crime
he
did
not
commit.
He
passed
before
getting
a
chance
to
see
Justice
in
Kentucky
the
same
year,
Mr
vigil's
wrongful
conviction
was
the
same
year.
That
I
was
born.
Q
Imagine
that
now
imagine
if
you
will
for
a
minute
being
ripped
away
from
your
family,
your
friends,
hope
dreams
and
everything
familiar
to
you
at
the
age
of
16..
The
emotional
and
psychological
toll
of
being
wrongfully
convicted
cannot
be
overstated
when
I
left
prison.
I
wanted
desperately
to
support
myself,
but
no
one
would
give
me
a
job.
I
had
to
sell
plasma
to
earn
money
to
help.
Q
Take
care
of
myself
and
I
still
have
the
plasma
needle
scar
on
my
arm
to
remind
me
of
just
how
scarce
finding
employment
was
upon
my
release
being
wrongly
convicted
stay.
My
record,
even
though
I
have
been
exonerated
I
still
burn.
The
scars
of
the
conviction
being
wrongly
convicted
is
not
something
you
can
just
ignore.
After
while
you
get
used
to
the
constant
knows
when
filling
out
applications
of
basic
needs
for
survival
being
wrongly
convicted
is
a
lifelong
experience.
Q
The
lack
of
acknowledgment
and
reparation
for
the
wrongly
convicted
perpetrates
a
cycle
of
pain
and
suffering,
making
it
difficult
to
move
forward
and
reintegrate
into
society
by
the
strength
and
grace
of
God,
family
friends
and
people.
I
have
met
along
my
journey
I'm
able
to
sit
before
you
today.
I
hope
ensure
my
living
experiences
and
some
of
my
hardships
today.
It
serves
as
a
reminder
of
how
important
and
continent
this
legislation
is
for
Kentucky.
Together
we
can
make
a
difference
ensuring
that
no
innocent
person
suffers
hardships
long
past
their
release
from
prison.
Q
I
So
members
of
the
Community
Committee
we're
here
to
answer
questions
I,
do
believe
that
oftentimes
when
we've
talked
to
individual
legislatures
we've
had
specific
questions
about
the
number
of
exonerees
that
might
be
entitled
to
file
something
under
the
statute.
First,
we
just
want
to
say
that
it's
not
guaranteed
that
anybody
would
receive
any
kind
of
an
award
the
way
House
Bill
571
is
drafted,
but
that
this
just
entitles
them
to
file
something
in
front
of
a
judge
and
get
a
determination
on
whether
they're
qualified
or
not.
I
P
One
this
is
not
a
Criminal
Justice,
Reform
Bill.
This
is
not
a
Criminal
Justice
Reform
Bill,
which
leads
into
number
two:
the
persons
who
are
eligible
under
lines,
five
through
five,
six
and
eighteen
and
twenty
of
page
one.
They
have
to
prove
actual
innocence.
It's
not
just
that
the
Constable
has
blundered,
it's
not
just
that
they
didn't
get
me
or
they
have
to
prove
that
they're,
innocent
and
I
think
those
are
important
things
to
focus
on.
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman,
thank.
T
Thank
you
chairman
for
inviting
these
individuals
in
that
have
suffered
through
these
examples,
and
it's
it's
so
good
to
hear
their
compelling
testimony.
What
this
is
really
about.
It's
justice
for
all.
We
should
be
all
concerned
about
justice
for
all,
so
I
had
a
question
on
a
court
decision
that
that
states
dismissed
with
prejudice
representative.
Can
you
discuss
that?
How
we
overcome
that?
How
we
get
these
people,
compensation
quicker
and
and
what
kind
of
obstacle
that's
going
to
be
so.
P
I,
when
the
are
we
talking
about
it,
the
initial
stage,
obviously
they
will
have
been
convicted
and
they
will
have
have
presumably
gone
through
their
appeal
process
right
right
later
on.
This
is
kind
of
like
a
habeas
corpus
or
a
1983
akin
to
that
not
exactly
but
akin
to
that
where
they
can
in
that
situation.
Collaterally
attack
the
conviction
here
we're
talking
about
similar
to
that
you
file
a
case.
Let's
say
you
were
convicted
in
in
Boone
County
10
years
ago,
and
you
you
proved
that
somebody
else
has
said:
look
I.
P
Did
it
all
along
or
maybe
DNA
evidence
shows
that
you
didn't
do
it,
then
you
can
file
this
this
case.
That's
what
this
allows
in
Boone
circuit
court,
because
that's,
where
you're,
convicted
and
and
show
you
have
to
show
then
actual
innocence.
So
the
fact
that
the
the
the
the
first
proceedings
are
concluded
doesn't
bar
this
one
thing
that
that
we
do
want-
and
maybe
this
might
be
an
amendment
is
when
we
file
that
case,
the
the
showing
actual
innocence
in
Boone
County.
T
P
T
U
Yeah
and
I
hello
committee,
my
name
is
Lori
Roberts
I'm
with
the
national
Innocence
Project,
thanks
for
inviting
me
to
speak.
I
also
just
want
to
emphasize
that
in
a
post-conviction
setting
if
your
charges
are
dismissed
with
prejudice
that
still
means
that
you're
still
eligible
based
on
the
plain
language
of
the
law.
Right
now,
it
sounds
like
you're
asking.
Should
there
be
a
slightly
quicker
process
for
for
folks
who
are
have
their
case
dismissed
with
prejudice
in
a
post-conviction
setting?
Is
that
right,
yeah.
P
T
I
That's
correct
and
we've
seen
many
of
our
ex
honorees
who
experience
that,
especially
if
you're
out
of
the
workforce
for
20
years
during
the
prime
of
your
earning
years
that
there's
a
reduction
or
if
any,
Social
Security
you
don't
earn
Social
Security.
When
you're
working
in
prison,
you
get
if
you're
lucky
a
dollar
or
a
dollar
fifty
an
hour,
but
there's
just
not
enough
Social
Security
being
drawn
out
of
there
for
them
to
get
a
payback
when
they're
eligible.
If.
U
P
P
T
I
Bill
provides
for
some
of
the
other
areas
of
social
support
such
as
financial
literacy,
medical
insurance
that
would
be
provided
by
the
state
which
is
really
critical
for
some
of
our
older
exonerees
assistants,
finding
housing,
mental
health,
counseling
and
educational
component,
which
would
be
consistent
with
like
what
you
would
see
for
juveniles
tuition
remission
where
they
can
go
to
a
state
school
and
get
four
years
of
education
as
well.
As
you
know,
trying
to
help
them
find
reliable
transportation.
Social
Services.
H
H
So,
as
I
read
the
bill,
this
needs
to
be
brought
in
a
separate
action
after
the
case
is
dismissed.
Etc
I'm
wondering
in
this
in
the
event
of
a
hearing,
as
anticipated
in
section
subsection
3
of
section
one
two,
where
there's
a
hearing
for
reversal
dismissal
upon
retrial
Etc
could
could
this
bill
be
amended
to
allow
such
a
claim
at
that
time,
so
as
not
to
have
to
wait
not
to
have
to
bring
another
case.
Etc
I.
T
P
C
P
P
My
ignorance
on
that,
but
yeah
I
certainly
do
not
think
my
17
year
old
son
should
be
questioned
on
something
of
that
magnitude
without
me
being
present
or
my
wife,
yes,
I,
think
which,
if
that
is
I,
presume
that
you're
right,
we
need
I,
think
we
should
change
that.
The
first
question
about
with
regard
to
how
many
juveniles
were
charged
I,
don't
know
the
answer
to
that.
I
C
W
W
He
had
an
attorney
working
on
his
appeal
during
that
process.
He
was
pardoned
by
the
governor.
How
often
does
that
really
happen?
Your
client
keeps
saying
I'm
going
to
get
pardon
I'm
going
to
get
pardoned
I'm
like
yeah
right.
He
got
pardoned
by
the
governor.
My
understanding
is
that
they
still
have
to
work
through
the
appeal
process,
then,
to
finish
that
piece,
so
I'm
wondering
how
does
that
work
then,
with
subsection
3
three
where
he
did
not
commit
the
crime
so
I'm
just
looking.
I
Still
been
convicted
that
the
Judgment
may
not
be
final,
but
you
still
have
a
conviction
you're
serving
on
that
conviction.
I
believe
that
individual
was
in
prison
during
that
the
pending
appeal
and
so
you're
still
eligible
under
the
statute
and
to
some
extent
depending
on
what
happens
after
the
pardon
the
the
appeal
actually
may,
depending
on
the
contents
of
the
pardon.
P
I
do
want.
You
definitely
agree
with
that.
I
do
want
to
highlight,
though,
that
there
are
a
lot
of
people
who
there
are
some
people
who
get
pardoned,
who
are
not
necessarily
pardoned
because
they're
actually
innocent,
and
so
while
that
would
be
strong
evidence,
I
think
in
any
proceeding.
I
want
to
hold
the
line
on
actual
innocence
and
just
because
you've
been
pardoned,
does
not
mean
you're
actually
innocent.
It
is
very
good
evidence
of
that,
but
I
know
I.
P
W
W
It
says
that
they
would
be
relieved
of
their
child
support
payments
owed
by
the
claimant
that
became
due.
But
when
you
go
to
the
last
sentence,
it
says
the
amount
owed
shall
be
awarded
to
the
other
parent
or
guardian
of
the
child.
So
my
question
is:
who
would
be
paying
the
child
support?
Is
that
something
the
state
would
pay
back
or
am
I
just
misreading
that
yeah.
U
P
And
what
we're
trying
to
do?
There
obviously
is
thread
the
needle
this
person
shouldn't
have
to
they
should
be
reimbursed
for
any
any
reimbursement
they
paid
to
the
victim
that
they
were
not
the
perpetrator
of,
and
also
anything
that
they
were
anyway
harmed
like
child
support
they
shouldn't
have
to
pay.
However,
this
is
the
thread
in
the
needle
part.
P
S
P
A
Thank
you
very
much,
representative
nemes
for
the
presentation,
thank
your
guests
and
also
want
to
thank
the
witnesses
who
came
forward
to
provide
your
testimony
and,
and
you
know,
I'm
at
a
loss
for
words
really
as
to
what
I
can
say
to
you.
But
what
comes
to
mind
is
I'm.
Sorry,
what
happened
to
you?
That's
so
we're
going
to
move
on
to
the
third
item.
I.
Think
Mr,
chairman
on
our
agenda,
non-recourse
Consumer,
Legal,
funding,
representative
Flannery
you'd,
come
forward
and
introduce
your
guests
and
you
may
proceed.
X
L
M
It
begs
the
question
any
name
image
like
this
legislation,
Mr
chairman,
that
can
maybe
help
compensate
us,
but
so
what
are
we
talking
about
today
and
why
isn't
legislation
necessary?
So
what
is
non-recourse
Consumer
Legal
funding
talking
to
even
many
lawyers?
They
may
not
be
really
familiar
with
this,
so
what
is
it
very
simply
we're
talking
about
small
balance
transactions
typically
about
two
thousand
dollars:
that's
the
average
that
are
given
from
third
parties
to
plaintiffs,
typically
in
car
wreck
cases,
but
it
could
be
other
cases
to
help
bridge
them
until
the
case
resolves.
M
Why
is
it
needed?
We
are
dealing
with
really
a
unregulated
space,
completely
unregulated,
where
there's
no
law
governing
this.
My
goal
is
to
bring
order
to
this
chaos.
I
think
it's
absolutely
needed
and
we
just
have
a
wild
wild
west
system
where
there
is
a
can
be
bad
actors
that
are
taking
advantage
of
people
they're
doing
whatever
they
want
whenever
they
want.
However,
they
want
and
that's
why
I
believe
that
this
concept
that
I'm
trying
to
put
forth
is
needed.
A
lot
of
other
states
are
tackling
this
issue,
I'd
like
to
list
three.
M
What
I
would
call
misconceptions
or
falsies
that
that
I
typically
hear
on
this
topic
that
I
think
it's
important
to
discuss
number
one
is
that
these
transactions
are
currently
unlawful.
That
is
not
the
case.
These
transactions
do
occur
in
Kentucky
and,
as
I
said
before,
they're
completely
unregulated,
no
laws
governing
them.
I
think
that
we
need
to
enact
some
sensible
consumer
protections
on
these
number
two
is
that
this
legislation
will
or
could
lead
to
more
litigation.
I,
don't
see
how
this
legislation
would
do
that,
because
it's
already
happening.
M
So
it's
not
going
to
cause
more
litigation
and
we're
going
to
have
the
same
amount.
I,
don't
see
how
this
legislation
would
change
that
and
three
I
think
this
is
really
important,
because
I
have
found
that
often
the
opponents
to
this,
from
sometimes
from
the
business
Community,
get
this
mixed
up
and
there's
a
lot
of
maybe
misuse
of
terminology
and
different
uses
of
certain
terminology.
But
it
gets
mixed
up
with
what
I
would
call
litigation
financing,
which
is
somewhat
of
a
related
topic.
M
We're
not
talking
about
a
small
town
car
wreck
case
with
you
know,
someone
that
you
know
was
just
trying
to
get
case
resolved
so
and
I
just
feel,
like
those
terms,
gets
mingled
intermingled
and
misused,
and
that's
not
what
I'm
talking
about
here
so
kind
to
go
back
over
just
emphasize
again
we're
dealing
with
a
completely
unregulated
space.
I
think
this
legislation
is
important.
The
concept
of
what
I'm
trying
to
do
the
goal
is
to
put
some
guard
rails
up
it.
M
Typically
pay
back.
You
know
on
a
two
thousand
dollar
transaction
oftentimes
can
be
four
or
five
thousand
dollars
and
and
I
think
these
people
are
being
preyed
upon
and
we
need
to
enact
legislation
to
protect
them.
Mr
Schuler
is
with
a
trade
organization
that
is
involved
in
these
transactions
and
I
believe
he
has
a
slideshow
that
will
address
some
of
these
issues.
X
X
This
is
kind
of
a
brief
description
of
what
Consumer
Legal
funding
is.
It
provides
a
financial
tool
for
for
a
consumer
that
has
a
pending
legal
claim,
as
represents
set.
Our
average
funding
is
about
two
thousand
dollars,
and
typically,
we
fund
no
more
than
about
five
to
ten
percent
of
what
we
think
the
expected
value
of
the
claim
is
so
we're
not
going
to
give
someone
all
kinds
of
money,
because
it
doesn't
it's
not
in
their
best
interest,
and
it's
also
lowers
the
possibility
as
having
a
recovery
on
the
product.
X
As
I
said,
it's
a
non-recourse
product,
meaning
that
if
the
case
doesn't
settle,
there
isn't
a
settlement
or
even
the
rare
instance.
That
does
happen
where
the
client
does
drop
the
case.
The
consumer
owes
us
nothing.
There
is
no
recourse
against
them,
meaning
that
the
company
cannot
ding
their
credit.
They
cannot
sue
them.
They
cannot
garnish
their
wages.
They
are
just
simply
out
the
money.
The
company
is
just
simply
out
the
money
so
they're
only
this
is
kind
of
the
only
financial
product
out
there
that
I
know
of
that.
X
You
only
have
to
meet
your
obligation
if
someone
else
gives
you
money.
If
that
third
party
does
not
give
you
money,
you
do
not
have
to
meet
your
obligation,
it's
totally
different
than
any
other
Financial
product
out
there
I
know
of
where
it's
a
car
loan
or
a
mortgage
or
whatever
it
is
the
person.
That's
providing
you
with
that
financing
doesn't
care
where
you
get
your
money
from.
They
just
want
their
money.
X
It's
basically
how
it
works.
The
consumer
contacts
the
company
then
verifies
the
information
that
the
consumer
has.
They
go
over
the
case
with
it,
I
mean
when
I
verify
the
information.
They'll
also
talk
to
the
consumer's
attorney,
because,
of
course
we
know
consumers
never
exaggerate
what
their
claim
is
worth.
So
they
want
to
talk
to
their
attorney.
To
make
sure
the
information
is
correct,
they'll
review
it
internally,
most
companies
have
former
personal
injury
attorneys
or
claims
adjusters
that
work
for
them.
X
They'll,
look
at
the
case
and
say:
okay,
based
on
our
experience,
education
settle
for
X
we're
going
to
give
you
why
at
that
case,
at
that
time,
then
you
contact
the
attorney
the
consumer
and
say
this
is
where
we're
looking
to
to
provide
you,
and
we
also
contact
the
consumer's
attorney
to
make
sure
the
consumer's
attorney
is
comfortable
with
the
amount
of
money
that
we're
providing
with
their
client.
If
that
consumer's
attorney
is
not
comfortable
with
that
dollar
amount,
it
does
not
happen.
X
X
Prospect
was
a
hog,
they
charged
very
high
rates
on
the
product
and
we're
just
not
a
good
party
in
in
the
space,
and
the
judge
in
the
case
basically
said
that
these
contracts
need
to
be
brought
in
line.
What's
interesting
is,
is
the
legislation
that
we're
talking
about
today?
If
this
had
been
in
place,
then
that
case
never
would
have
happened.
Prospect
would
never
have
been
able
to
do
what
they
did
in
the
case.
So
what
we're
trying
to
do
is
bring
Clarity
to
the
situation
where
right
now
there's
ambiguous
ambiguity.
X
This
is
kind
of
what
we're
looking
at
to
to
for
what
the
bill
would
look
like
and
what
we're
introducing
clear
language
for
the
consumer
acknowledgment
by
the
consumer's
attorney.
These
are
all
and
I
want
to
go
through
and
read
what
you
can
see
for
yourself,
but
these
are
all
steps
that
our
companies
already
agreed
to
in
best
practices.
What
we
want
to
do
is
codify
them
and
put
them
into
statute,
demanding
that
everybody
that
does
offer
this
product
do
do
this,
as
our
all,
our
companies
do
already,
instead
of
best
practices.
X
Finally,
prohibited
acts,
no
commercials,
no
quid
pro
quo
back
and
forth,
no
making
false
Dames
not
offering
to
pay
for
any
legal
fees
or
court
costs.
So,
as
was
as
a
representative
there's
another
facet,
author
called
litigation
financing
which
actually
funds
the
cases
we're
prohibiting
that
in
this
statute,
the
money
that
we
provide,
the
consumer
cannot
be
used
to
further
litigation.
It
could
only
be
used
for
household
needs
and
an
attorney
who
represents
the
consumer
cannot
have
a
final
interest
in
the
funding
company,
meaning
that
there
cannot
be
any
backdoor
deals
going
on
with
this.
X
All
fees
should
stop
at
42
months,
written
acknowledgment
by
the
consumer's
attorney
and
full
disclosure,
the
terms
and
conditions
of
the
agreement.
We
don't
want
anything
hidden
here.
We
want
to
make
sure
the
consumer
and
their
attorney
are
fully
aware
of
the
transaction
and
fully
aware
of
the
terms
and
conditions
of
the
transaction.
L
Mr
chairman
all
I
would
just
add
to
it
is.
This
is
no
stranger
to
this
committee,
and
this
will
be
the
third
session
that
we
have
run
this
legislation.
Representative
Blanton
was
the
initial
sponsor
representative
Flannery.
We
have
several
Senators
willing
to
advocate
for
it
as
well
and
I.
Think
it's
just
important
to
note.
I.
L
Think
representative,
flanner
Mr
scholar
have
said
everything
that
needs
to
be
said,
but,
except
for
the
fact
that
we're
just
trying
to
put
up
some
guard
rails
on
a
on
a
product
that
is
currently
being
used
in
Kentucky
with
no
consumer
protections
whatsoever.
So
that's
what
we're
trying
to
attempt
to
do
today
and
here
and
with
this
piece
of
legislation.
So
with
that
we'll
field,
your
questions.
Thank
you.
Mr,
chair.
A
Y
Mr
chairman,
thank
you
very
much
chairman
Elliott
and
members
of
the
interim
joint
committee.
As
the
chairman
mentioned,
my
name
is
Sherman
Joyce
I'm,
president
of
the
American
reform
Association
in
Washington,
D.C
and
I,
want
to
thank
you
for
the
opportunity
to
testify
on
legislative
proposals
to
legalize
non-recourse
legal
funding.
My
organization,
the
American
reform
Association,
has
significant
concerns
about
these
loans,
which
courts
in
your
state
have
found
to
be
in
violation
of
Kentucky
law
prohibiting
Champion,
as
well
as
the
statutory
limit
on
the
interest
rate
that
lenders
can
charge.
Y
We
believe
that
legalizing
such
loans
in
exchange
for
a
licensing
agreement
and
what
we
believe
are,
quite
frankly
inadequate
regulations,
would
benefit
virtually
no
one
other
than
these
lenders.
You
heard
a
little
bit
of
discussion
about
this
about
this
business,
but
the
model
essentially
is
for
these
lenders
to
offer
cash
to
people
who
have
suffered
an
injury
in
exchange
for
a
portion
of
a
future
settlement.
Y
These
lenders
do
not
consider
these
so-called
payments
to
be
loans
because
they
only
get
paid,
as
you
heard,
if,
in
fact,
there
is
a
settlement
or
judgment,
as
is
the
case
with
a
lawyer,
operating
on
a
contingency
fee
basis
from
the
standpoint
of
a
consumer
receiving
a
small
loan.
However,
as
time
passes,
the
extraordinarily
High
payday
lending
type
rates,
these
lenders
routinely
charge
can
take
up
much,
if
not
all,
of
a
settlement,
and
it's
apparent
to
us
at
least
that
there
is
little
true
risk.
Y
In
most
of
these
cases,
you
heard
the
discussion
about
how
they
are
evaluated.
No
doubt
the
lenders
undertake
extensive
review
of
these
matters
and
whether
it's
a
routine
case
such
as
a
fender
bender
a
slip
and
fall
or
other
actions,
much
the
same
way
that
contingency
fee
lawyers
do
no
doubt
they
also
choose
cases
with
a
high
probability
of
success,
either
through
a
settlement
or
verdict.
They
have
no
incentive,
obviously
to
do
otherwise
from
the
standpoint
of
the
Civil
Justice
System.
We
believe
that
lawsuit
loans
complicate
the
prospect
for
resolving
lawsuits
outside
of
court.
Y
I
think
it
really,
quite
frankly
defies
logic
and
common
sense
to
suggest
otherwise,
once
presented
with
a
potential
settlement
offer
a
plaintiff
who
was
taken
out.
Such
a
loan
has
to
include
the
interest
rate
charged
by
the
lender
as
a
cost
that
he
or
she
will
have
to
bear
along
with
the
fees
paid
to
that
individual's
lawyer,
and
these
lenders
have
been
known
to
charge
as
much
as
4.99
per
month
on
an
annual
basis
that
reaches
nearly
79
percent.
Y
One
of
the
things
that
I
would
add
is
that
we
do
not
allege
or
suggest
that
this
is
that
these
types
of
lawsuits
spur
frivolous
litigation,
but
for
those
who
who
believe
that
that
lawsuit
lending
is
needed
to
promote
access
to
Justice,
we
believe
that
the
important
policy
issue
there
is
the
contingency
fees
exist
for
that
very
reason:
to
ensure
that
individuals
can
hire
someone
to
represent
them.
But
I
think
you
heard
mentioned
briefly
about
the
the
bowling
litigation
and
the
matter
that
Mr
Schuler
highlighted.
Y
Let's
look
at
some
of
the
details
in
that
particular
case,
Mr
Christopher
Bowling,
who
a
Kentucky
Resident,
was
seriously
injured
in
2009
after
a
gas
can
ignited
resulting
in
serious
injuries
to
Mr
bowling,
he
then
took
out
four
lawsuits
that
totaled
thirty
thousand
dollars
at
a
rate
of
4.99
per
month
when
the
case
settled
five
years
later.
The
balance
on
his
loans
was
in
excess
of
340
000.
Y
This
is
more
than
11
times
the
amount
he
had
borrowed
and
a
significant,
no
doubt
a
significant
portion
of
the
settlement
that
was
intended
to
compensate
him
for
the
treatment
of
his
severe
injuries,
but
fortunately
for
Mr
bowling,
the
U.S
District
Court
for
the
Western
District
of
Columbia.
Excuse
me,
District
of
Kentucky
District
Columbia
is
where
I
am
right
now
held
that
the
lawsuit
loans
he
entered
into
violated
Kentucky
law
and
were
therefore
unenforceable.
Y
A
unanimous
panel
of
the
U.S
court
of
appeals
for
the
sixth
circuit
upheld
that
decision
on
appeal
and,
according
to
the
sixth
circuit,
lawsuit
lending
violated
the
state
statutory
provision
of
what's
referred
to
as
champerty,
which
prohibits
third
parties
which,
in
in
property
more
simple
parlance
any
individual
or
entity
other
than
the
actual
parties
to
a
lawsuit
from
having
a
financial
interest.
In
a
case,
the
court
found
that
the
statute
at
issue
reflects
the
strong
public
policy
against
assignments
that
can
compel
a
party
to
prosecute
a
claim.
Y
Y
The
sixth
circuit,
furthermore
found
and
I
think
this
is
particularly
important
that
what
the
lenders
refer
to
as
a
quote-unquote,
non-recourse
investment
or
a
loan
is
irrelevant,
because
the
consumer
protection
provided
by
the
under
the
the
consumer
protection
provided
under
the
state's
usury
statute.
The
court
I
think
this
is
the
important
Point
look
to
the
substance
of
the
arrangement,
not
its
characterization
or
the
label
provided
to
it
by
the
lender.
Y
Fortunately,
for
Mr
for
Mr
bowling,
there
was
a
after.
After
all,
this
litigation,
a
better
outcome.
He
ultimately
owed
lenders
for
the
principal
amount
of
the
loans
and
the
lender's
costs,
and
that
totaled
thirty,
four
thousand
six
hundred
and
twenty
five
dollars,
but
his
case
demonstrates
that
the
law
is
now
on.
The
books
in
your
state
provide
significant
protection
to
consumers.
Y
The
bottom
line
from
our
perspective,
however,
is
the
enactment
is
such
a
proposal
will
allow
lawsuit
loans
to
flourish
in
your
state,
for
the
reasons
that
I've
just
discussed,
however,
we
we
believe
that
this
legislation,
such
as
hb224,
is
misguided.
However,
if
the
legislature
does
choose
to
move
forward,
if
there
is
an
interest
in
in
considering
these
issues,
we
believe
there
are
two
particularly
important
points
number
one.
Y
So,
for
those
reasons
we
we
encourage
you
to
maintain
the
status
quo.
We
believe
your
consumers
are
well
protected
and
we
believe
that
the
case
law
of
the
with
the
Mr
bowling's
litigation
is
the
best
protection
for
consumers
and
I'm
happy
to
answer
any
questions
that
you
might
have
and
thank
you
again
for
the
opportunity.
A
M
Yes,
very
briefly,
I
think
the
bowling
facts
are
substantially
different
than
what
we
are
typically
seeing.
As
I
stated
in
my
initial
testimony
on
this
transactions
are
are
still
happening
and
I
think
that
it's
inaccurate
to
say
that
somehow
this
case
is
preventing
it
that
it's
black
letter
law
we
are
dealing
with
just
a
completely
unregulated
space
as
to
I
guess
what
I
would
say,
kind
of
rhetorically
or
just
as
a
statement.
If,
if
this
legislation
or
some
the
concept,
some
version
of
it
wouldn't
pass,
what
are
we
really
accomplishing?
M
We're
still
allowing
these
transactions
to
take
place
that
and
we're
going
to
have
to
Grapple
and
and
consumers
are
going
to
have
to
deal
with
really
no
limits,
no
caps
as
to
what
these
folks
can
charge
them.
So
that's
what
I'm
trying
to
do
is
put
up
some
guard
rails.
He
brought
up
an
issue
as
far
as
disclosure.
That
is
a
topic
that
seems
to
come
up
in
this
I'm
I'm.
Z
Thank
you,
Mr,
chair,
I've
got
basically
two
questions
here.
One
I
guess
is
clarification.
Thank
you,
gentlemen.
For
coming
today
and
I
understand,
there
are
no
caps
currently
on
these
type
of
loans
or
not
it's
completely.
Unregulated.
Okay,
this
kind
of
to
me
sounds
like
a
payday
loan
type
of
situation.
Can
you
address
that.
M
I've
heard
those
comments
before
I
can
appreciate
some
similarities.
What
I,
I
guess
would
say
the
biggest
difference
is
payday.
Loans
are
heavily
regulated
because
I
think
as
a
matter
of
public
policy,
people
lawmakers
have
understood
that
we
need
to
put
up
some
guard
rails
and
and
put
in
certain
limitations
on
what
can
happen
and
those
types
of
transactions
I
believe
that's
all
covered
by
KRS
286
as
a
you
know,
non-traditional
non-depository
type
transaction,
so
I
would
say
that's
the
biggest
difference
is
you're.
M
X
I
may
represent
it
real
quick
in
order
to
get
a
payday
loan,
you
have
to
have
a
job
a
lot
of
times.
The
consumers
that
we're
dealing
with
don't
have
a
job
at
that
time
because
of
their
accident
or
because
of
their
situation,
so
they
wouldn't
even
qualify
for
payday
and
also
in
a
lot
of
other
states
where
this
product
is
available.
We
have
a
lot
of
consumers
coming
to
us
to
get
a
Consumer
Legal
funding
to
pay.
J
X
The
payday
loan
because
remember
in
Payday,
no
matter
what
happens
every
two
weeks
every
month,
you've
got
to
make
a
payment.
If
you
don't
make
a
payment
that
interest
rate
starts
to
build
up
in
our
situation,
you
do
not
have
to
make
any
payments
along
the
way
until
your
case
settles
and
then
only
if
your
case
Settles,
so
there's
a
huge
difference
between
this
product
and
painting.
X
Y
Y
Indiana
has
a
36
percent
interest
rate
in
terms
of
the
cap
that
under
its
statute
plus
seven
percent
annual
service
fee,
and
since
there
was
a
discussion
about
some
of
your
neighboring
states,
I
think
it's
worth
looking
at
the
fact
that
at
least
West
Virginia
has
an
18
usury
rate
as
as
a
model
and
we've
also
seen
rates
of
15
with
or
six
percent
above
Prime.
So
I
think
there
are
different
ways
to
measure
what
the
appropriate
interest
rate
might
be.
X
X
Yeah
no
I
appreciate
that
the
report
was
was
done
by
a
gentleman
named
Kevin,
Moore
and
he'd
use
the
study
from
Marathon
strategies
and,
according
to
the
straight,
the
the
report
they're
talking
about
nuclear
verdicts
and
how
third-party
litigation
financing
increases
nuclear
verdicts
I
went
through
and
read
the
study.
In
fact,
I
have
a
copy
here.
If
anybody
would
like
a
copy.
X
They
also
in
the
report
that
stated
in
Maine,
Vermont,
Indiana,
Oklahoma,
Nebraska
and
Utah,
since,
where
there
we
have
statute
of
Consumer
Legal
funding,
there
have
been
no
nuclear
verdicts
on
this
book
and,
in
fact,
I
reach
out
directly
to
the
the
bill.
Excuse
me
to
the
article
author,
Kevin,
Moore
and
I
asked
him
I
said:
are
you
looking
at
doing
this
is
for
Consumer
Legal
funding
or
litigation
financing?
I'll,
read
you
exactly
what
he's
sending
back?
X
He
says
Eric
I'm,
not
an
expert
in
the
field
of
third-party
litigation
funding,
but
the
outside
looking
in
I,
feel
it
is
safe
to
say
that
there
is
an
indirect
or
in
or
indirect
or
direct
correlation
that
could
be
assumed.
There
are
a
lot
of
variables
that
have
caused
nuclear
verdicts
to
continue
to
rise,
and
one
of
them
is
well-funded
legal
team.
Just
my
opinion.
The
attaches
is
a
PDF
from
the
GAO
report,
so
what
he's
talking
about
is
funding
of
the
litigation?
A
P
Be
really
quickly.
Thank
you,
representative.
Flanders,
for
bringing
the
bill
I
understand
that
there
may
be
some
Provisions
that
that
we
can.
We
can
tweak
and
and
improve,
but
I
want
to
note
that,
right
now,
it's
unlicensed,
unregulated,
unlimited
there
is,
you
could
possibly
bring
a
lawsuit
like
Mr
bowling
did.
Mr
bowling
was
a
lawyer
by
the
way
he
knew
what
he
was
getting
into
when
he
signed
it,
but
okay,
but
so
so
what
this
does
is
it
license?
P
So
anybody
offering
this
product
would
have
to
be
licensed
in
Kentucky
and
it
limits
what
they
can
offer.
This
is
just
a
freedom
question
to
me
and
I
I
mean
we
know
why
people
are
against
these
I
mean,
let's
just
say
it
straight
right,
I'm,
a
lawyer
if
I'm
representing
defendant
I
want
as
much
pressure
as
possible
on
the
planet
to
settle,
there's
no
doubt
about
it.
If
I'm
a
plaintiff
I
want
as
much
pressure
as
possible
for
the
defendant
to
settle.
So
this
is
enough
and
we're
not
talking
about
these
million
dollar
loans.
P
What
we're
talking
about
in
the
cases
that
I've
been
involved
in
and
I?
Don't
do
plaintiff's
law
anymore,
but
we're
talking
about
like
a
two
thousand
dollar
loan,
so
somebody
could
pay
their
rent,
we're
talking
about
something
they
can
it
can
they
can
get.
They
can
get
some
Transportation.
That's
what
we're
talking
about
we're
not
talking
about
these,
these
huge
to
fund
these
huge
litigations,
and
we,
let's
just
say
it
straight
and
let's
be
honest,
we
know
why
people
are
against
it
and
there's
nothing
dishonorable
about
that.
P
As
a
lawyer,
when
I
represent
defendants,
you
darn
right
I
want
to
put
as
much
pressure
on
the
plane
if
the
settle
as
I
can,
but
as
a
legislator,
we
have
to
do
what's
right
for
looking
at
all
interests,
and
it's
clear
that
what's
going
on
today
is
not
right.
These
people
are
being
preyed
upon.
It's
also
not
right
to
get
rid
of
them
all
together.
This
is
an
asset
that
they
have,
that
they
should
be
able
to
Market
in
a
free
Marketplace.
That's
what
this
is
and
so
like.
P
We
do
payday
loans
and
look
I,
don't
like
payday
loans,
but
but
some
people
get
payday
loans
to
pay
immediate
things
that
they
need,
and
what
this
will
do
is
it
would
enable
somebody
to
pay
for
something
and
we're
limiting
how
much
that
the
person
loaning
them
can
charge.
I,
don't
I,
don't
see
much
problems
with
this.
We
can.
Let's,
let's
talk
about
tweaking
at
the
edges,
but
let's
not
talk
around
this
issue.
We
know
why
people
are
against
this
bill.
V
Bray,
thank
you
Mr,
chairman
So,
within
the
bill,
the
interest
rates
are
capped
at
36
percent
as
I
understand.
Is
that
correct?
Yes,
now,
if
I
take
out
a
two
thousand
dollar
loan
for
transportation,
when
my
lawsuit
starts,
does
that
interest
build
up
all
throughout
my
lawsuit
that
could
take
years
to
settle
so
that
I'm
paying
36
percent
on
two
thousand
dollars
in
year?
One
then
36
percent
in
your
tube,
but
I
don't
have
to
pay
for
it,
but
my
debt
is
accumulating
as
the
lawsuit
goes
on
correct.
X
X
X
Way
here
we're
not
making
payments,
but
also
two,
if
your
case
doesn't
settle
or
you
lose
your
case,
you
have
no
future
obligation
to
that
company.
You
actually
keep
the
money.
You
actually
come.
If
your
case
goes
south,
you
actually
gain
more
than
the
attorney.
It
is
because
the
attorney
takes
on
a
contingency
basis,
so
you're
actually
making
more
money
than
the
attorney
did,
because
you
got
money
up
front
on
the
case,
but.
X
V
X
Not
currently,
but
it's
you
know
it's
a
type
of
situation
that
we
don't
think
it's
really
new,
because
it's
never
it's
not
really
done.
There
are
kind
of
I'll
be
honest.
There
are
occasions
when
someone
is
needing
30
40,
50
000,
but
those
are
extreme
cases
and
typically
those
are
cases
where
someone
has
an
amputation.
They
need
to
have
their
house
rehabbed
or
you
know,
needs
Home
Health
Care,
while
their
their
case
is
pending.
Those
are
extremes.
I
think
we
need
to
have
some
variable
to
allow
those
to
happen
so.
X
M
And
I
would
would
like
to
add
to
that
I
think.
The
second
part
that
is
a
good
question.
These
are
non-recourse,
so
the
person's
offering
the
money
don't
really
want
to
be
involved
in
a
bad
transaction.
Okay,
so
to
some
degree
they've.
They
use
good
business
judgment
and
they're,
not
throwing
out
money
that
they
feel
like
they're
not
going
to
get
back
and
I.