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A
We
do
not
have
a
quorum
yet
so
we're
going
to
forego
the
approval
of
the
minutes.
For
now
this
morning,
we're
going
to
hear
from
representatives
of
the
department
of
corrections,
the
kenton
county
circuit
clerk
and
representatives
from
the
volunteers
of
america.
A
Well,
welcome
to
your
to
you
all.
We
appreciate
your
being
here
today
to
discuss
the
fiscal
impact
of
inmate
classification
and
commutations,
so
I'll
turn
it
over
to
you.
F
Okay,
so
the
department
of
corrections
is
here
today
to
answer
three
questions
about
classification
and
budget.
The
first
question
is:
what
are
the
physical
impacts
to
the
state
and
county
budget
due
to
the
delay
in
classifying
convicted
felons
number
two?
What
programs?
If
any,
can
unclassified
inmates
participate
in
and
three
what
fiscal
impact
did
the
commutations
from
the
current
administration
have
on
the
doc
budget?
F
So
I'm
going
to
be
talking
about
a
specific
population
and
director
fannin
is
going
to
be
talking
about
a
specific
population
because
sometimes
classification
while
it
it
it
does
the
whole
all
of
our
inmates,
but
sometimes
there's
some
confusion.
So
I
want
to
make
sure
that
we're
all
on
the
same
page
of
which
population
we're
talking
about.
So
classification
is
a
process
in
which
an
inmate
is
given
a
custody
level
and
recommended
program
which
501
kar,
2060,
section
31
states.
F
The
assessment
and
classification
center
staff
shall,
within
10
working
days
of
receipt
of
the
pre-sentence
investigation
report
and
judgment
documents,
review
the
inmates
file
and
assign
a
custody
classification
level
to
class
b
felons.
Now
this
was
established
in
1993
and
has
not
changed,
and
I
think
the
one
thing
that
it
does
not
talk
about
that.
While
we
wait
for
judgments
and
ps5
actually
taking
the
sentence
and
calculating
it
back
in
93,
we
may
not
have
had
that
many
in
our
prison
system
that
we
had
to
you
know
to
do.
F
We
have
classified
5721
inmates
into
our
jail
system,
and
so
director
fannin
is
going
to
talk
about
a
different
population
so
that
we
all
kind
of
are
on
the
same
page
of
which
population
we're
talking
about
it's
a
little
complex,
but.
E
That
timeline
was
expanded
to
90
days
with
the
budget
bill
and,
like
commissioner
cruz
said,
the
admission
number
of
admissions
into
the
department
has
increased
tremendously,
since
these
measures
were
put
into
place.
The
average
admissions
in
2001
were
749
inmates
per
month,
this
more
than
doubled
to
1689
inmates
by
2016.
E
in
2020
and
2021
emissions
have
been
affected
by
the
covet
pandemic,
but
have
still
averaged
over
a
thousand
inmates
per
month.
The
wait
time
for
sentencing
orders
has
a
direct
impact
on
the
classification
and
transfer
process
and
on
september
21st
2021.
The
department
was
awaiting
receipt
of
292
judgments.
E
E
E
E
In
addition
to
the
judgment,
the
classification
is
directly
impacted
by
the
pre-sentence
investigation.
The
information
in
the
psi,
such
as
the
crime
story
and
prior
criminal
record,
is
necessary
for
the
completion
of
a
classification
when
an
inmate
weighs
a
psi.
The
due
date
is
30
days
from
the
date
waived
so
far.
This
year
the
number
of
psi's
waived
is
3113
and
we've
reviewed
that
by
region
and
so
far
the
eastern
region
has
745
the
central
region
918
the
northern
region.
154.
E
That's
just
jefferson
county
and
the
western
region
1296,
and
then
to
address
the
question
regarding
programming
and
unclassified
inmates.
Inmates
can
begin
the
process
of
obtaining
their
ged
without
being
classified
there's
a
kar
that
requires
jail
to
provide
the
opportunity
to
pursue
ged
to
state
inmates.
E
C
A
You
made
mention
of
a
statutory
and
perhaps
an
administrative
regulation
requirement
to
classify
these
prisoners
at
some
point
after
their
conviction,
but
you
mentioned
some
circumstances
that
prevent
that
is
you're
saying
you
have
to
wait
for
the
pre-sentence
investigation
in
order
to
to
make
these
classifications,
but
you've
waived.
A
C
Thank
you
chairman
ma'am
is:
are
you
saying
when
they
wave
you're
talking
about
to
expedite
their
formal
sentencing
before
the
court?
If
I
understand
correctly,
it
can't
be
waived
for
you
to
classify.
Is
that
right.
C
That
I'm
familiar
with,
I
wasn't
familiar
with
it
being
waived
as
it
relates
to
wind
classification.
A
Thank
you
senator
another
clarification,
so
the
the
inmate
can
wave
a
pre-sense
investigation,
but
what
impact
does
that
have
on
on
classification,
whether
he
waives
it
or
not?
The
statutory
deadline
for
classification
should
be
adhered
to,
whether
or
not
he
he
or
she
waves.
The
psi
correct.
E
F
No,
it
states
that
ten
working
days
a
receipt
of
the
pfi
and
judgment,
then
we
review
it
and
then
determine
the
classification
level
or
and
determine
recommended
programming.
A
A
A
All
right
all
right,
so
what
representative
petry
has
a
question?
Thank
you,
mr
chairman,
can
you.
B
Hear
me:
yes,
we
can.
Thank
you
very
much.
I
want
to
make
sure
I
get
back
to
those
three
questions,
but
first
off
I
understand
the
waving
of
the
psi
data
conviction.
Psi
psi
waived
if
waived
30
days.
So
if
I
understood
the
answer
to
the
last
question,
then
you're
then
we're
meeting
the
statutory
obligation
for
classification,
whether
the
psi
is
received
or
whether
it's
waived
is
that
correct.
E
No
sir,
okay,
there
are
some
that
take
that
we
are
taking
longer
because
from
the
dates
that
they
are
when
we
receive
them
when
the
p
assigned
the
judgment
are
received,
that
10-day
window.
What
happens
in
that
10-day
window
is
the
incentive
calculation
has
to
be
completed.
Then
it's
referred
to
classification
to
be
have
their
classification
completed
and
no,
we
are
we're
not
always
meeting
that
10-day
window.
F
B
Yes,
and
I,
and
and
yes,
I
believe
that
to
be
true
what
I'm,
what
I'm
after,
though,
is
this:
if
we're
not
meeting
it-
and
you
say
we're
not
meeting
it
by
some
or
not
always,
that
sounds
like
we're,
probably
hitting
it
by
90
95
percent
compliance
on
the
statute.
For,
although
I
don't
think
that
to
be
true,
no.
B
Okay,
then,
I
would
ask,
please
make
those
requests
if
it's
something
that's
impeding
it
from
being
done,
please
communicate
with
us
and
work
with
us.
I
see
chairman
westerfield
on
the
video,
I'm
fairly
assured
99.99
that
he
was
willing
to
work
on
that
issue.
Karen
massey
I've
spoken
to
before
chairman
fischer,
I've
spoken
to
before.
B
Let
us
know,
communicate
with
us,
so
we
can
hit
that
now
on
to
the
next
thing,
the
classifications
and
how
that
affects
programming,
as
you
know,
trying
to
deal
with
incarcerations,
not
just
from
a
money
standpoint,
but
also
from
gaining
traction
for
the
inmates,
so
that
when
they
get
out,
they
don't
come
back
in
again.
There
are
a
lot
of
programs
developed
and
we
have
in
recent
years,
given
extra
credit
when
lots
of
programs
are
completed.
B
I
heard
in
your
presentation
that,
yes,
the
ged
has
to
be
given.
If
someone
asks
us
classification
doesn't
impact
that,
on
a
ged,
correct,
correct,
okay,
but
the
other
programs.
It's
just
recommended
that
somebody
go
through
that
it's
not
required,
and
what
I
find
in
practice
is
is
that
if
no
one
knows
if
the
classification
is
going
to
result
to
that
inmate
staying
where
they
are,
there's
really
no
real
world
reason
to
start
programming
when
that
inmate
may
be
moved.
B
So
this
is
where
I'm
trying
to
get
out
of.
If
there's
a
problem,
the
classification
classification
has
a
real
world
impact
physically,
as
well
as
real
world
to
the
inmate.
If
we
can't
get
that
programming
going
and
get
traction
for
that
inmate,
so
they
don't
come
back
into
this
and
they
in
fact
earn
better
credit
to
get
out
earlier
and
get
that
traction
moving.
Does
that
make
sense.
B
B
B
It's
a
problem,
that's
been
on
since
the
90s,
apparently
from
the
presentation
that's
been
given
this
morning,
so
it
should
be
very
apparent
where
the
hang-ups
are
in
the
system,
so
14
days
at
least
get
that
to
the
chairman
to
the
committee.
So
we
can
start
looking
at
it
and
make
sure
we've
got
a
phone
number,
so
we
can
call
you
and
start
working
on
it.
Thank
you.
C
I
pulled
that
stunt
for
the
first
time
in
a
while,
so
chairman
petry
took
the
words
right
out
of
my
mouth
three
weeks
ago,
department
of
corrections
was
in
front
of
the
judiciary
committee
and
they
were
given
multiple
opportunities
to
answer
that
very
question,
and
in
the
three
weeks
since
that
meeting
to
my
knowledge,
no
no
answer
has
been
given.
You've
just
been
asked
again
to
tell
us
what
the
impediments
are.
I
was
going
to
ask
you
what
part
of
the
psi
is?
A
hang
up.
C
I
mean
a
criminal
history
is
not
something
that
takes
very
long
to
procure
much
less
to
look
at,
I'm
not
sure
what
what
takes
the
time
to
delay
well
beyond.
Well,
beyond
the
statutory
requirements
for
classification
you
were
asked
three
weeks
ago
to
in
fact
you
were
given
an
opportunity
without
blame
without
any
sort.
We're
not
interested
in
blame,
we're
interested
in
fixing
it.
C
If
there's
something
legislatively,
we
can
do
and
and
the
department
respectfully
whiffed
at
that
question
not
once
but
twice
in
that
meeting,
and
here
we
are
three
weeks
later
and
we
still
don't
have
answers
to
that
question.
You've
been
given
that
opportunity
from
the
budget
chairman
in
the
house
yet
again
and
your
senate
judiciary
chairman,
is
asking
the
same
thing.
C
J
I
have
two
questions
kind
of
follow-ups
in
the
testimony
it
indicated
that
you
became
aware
of
this
problem
a
long
time
ago
because
of
increasing
populations
in
jail
number
of
people
having
to
be
classified,
etc.
I
guess
my
question
is,
and-
and
I've
only
been
here
three
years
now
is
when
something
like
that
occurs:
what
kind
of
reports,
what
kind
of
information
is
generated
to
the
legislature
so
that
they
can
address
that
in
a
statutory
requirement?
So
that's
my
my
first
question
and
then
to
follow
up
on
that
I'll.
Let
you
answer
them
both
together.
J
A
As
I
understand,
approximately
25
of
the
felons
in
state
custody
were
released
as
a
result
of
the
covet
issue
and
according
to
the
governor's
revised
budget,
it
says
the
revised
inmate
population
forecast
because
of
the
coveted
release
resulted
in
a
savings
in
fiscal
year,
2021
of
of
approximately
42
million
275
600,
so
we're
reducing
the
inmate
population
about
25
percent
and
the
corrections
budget
is
about
626
million
of
so
42
million
out
of
620
said.
I
calculate
that
about
a
7
savings
from
from
a
release
of
25
percent
of
the
inmate
population.
H
A
budget
person,
but
I
would
say
a
couple
of
things
one
I
don't
know
about
the
25
percent.
I
think
there
were
maybe
about
1700
people
released,
so
I
don't
know
about
the
25.
H
I
would
also
say
that,
particularly
when
you're
talking
about
reducing
the
population
in
a
state
facility
such
as
the
kentucky
state,
reformatory
or
kentucky
state
penitentiary,
you
know
there's
a
great
deal
of
fixed
cost
that
are
baked
into
running
those
facilities,
regardless
of
how
many
people
are
housed
there.
So
you
still
have
to
have
the
lights
on.
You
still
have
to
pay
the
staff.
H
A
Yeah,
I
would
agree
there
are
fixed
costs
that
would
not
be
affected
by
a
release
of
felon
population,
but
in
his
in
his
comments
to
this
to
the
corrections
budget,
the
governor
noted
that
the
department's
core
cost
driver
is
the
felon
population
and
that's
in
his
comments
to
this
particular
section
of
the
budget.
So
that's
why
I
posed
the
question.
It's
really
not.
A
H
No,
I
I
don't.
I
don't
think
that's
what
I'm
saying,
I'm
just
saying
that
there's
not
a
dollar
for
dollar
ratio.
There
I
mean.
Obviously
I
think
the
department's
cost
almost
exclusively
derives
from
the
felon
population,
but
reducing
a
certain
number
of
people
in
state
facilities
is
only
going
to
save
the
variable
cost
of
housing
that
particular
inmate.
H
Now
I
suppose
that
in
some
theoretical
world,
if
you
ever
reduce
the
population
enough
to
where
you
were
actually
closing
facilities
and
that
sort
of
thing,
then
you
you
have
a
little
different
picture,
but
of
course
that's
that's
we
didn't
get
anywhere
close
to
that
so
and
our
budget
experts
may
can
probably
express
that
better
than
I
can.
But
I
I
think
at
least
that's
a
partial
answer
to
your
question.
C
Thank
you
secretary.
Yes,
that's
correct,
and
also
I
want
to
note
that
the
inmate
population
forecast
considers
a
lot
of
factors
other
than
just
the
commutations.
The
courts
were
closed
for
a
period
of
time.
The
office
of
state
budget
director
in
crafting
that
forecast
considers
a
variety
of
data
included,
including
admissions
and
releases
and
in
economic
forecasts
as
well.
C
A
A
K
Thank
you,
mr
chairman,
happy
to
see
secretary
harvey
here.
I
think
it's
his
first
time
before
this
committee.
It's
good
to
see
you
there,
sir,
you
come
with
us,
sir.
Thank
you
come
with
a
lot
of
good
experience.
In
your
background,
I'm
happy
that
you're
in
this
position,
governor
bashiris,
has
now
had
two
secretaries
of
justice,
both
excellent
public
servants
and
I'm
happy
to
see
you
there
today.
K
I'm
also
happy
to
see
cookie,
as
I've
said
a
number
of
times,
commissioner,
when
I
talk
to
folks
who
work
in
the
department
of
corrections,
they're
happy
with
your
leadership
and
think
that
you
do
a
good,
very
good
job,
and
I
have
to
concur
with
that
in
very
difficult
circumstances.
Over
the
last
year,
I
do
have
a
question
about
the
the
costs,
and
then
I
have
a
question
about
the
status
of
some
some
requests
that
senator
carol
and
I
have
made
I'll
go
with
the
the
costs.
K
First,
we've
mentioned
that
there's
42
million
dollar
reduction
in
appropriations
going
to
the
department
of
corrections
due
to
the
approximately
6
000
prisoners,
who've
been
released,
whether
it
will
serve
out
or
whether
it
was
due
to
covet.
Not
all
of
them
have
been
related
to
the
commutations
but
have,
but
what
we
do
know
is
of
the
over
1700
people
that
the
governor
released
from
prison
early,
many
of
them
felons.
We
know
that
48
percent
of
them
have
been
rearrested
for
a
new
new
offense.
K
We
know
that
32
percent
of
the
overall
1700
have
been
rearrested
for
a
felony,
many
of
those
class
a's
and
class
b's,
which
are
the
most
serious
of
the
most
serious,
so
we're
not
really
saving,
at
least
for
those
folks.
Who've
been
rearrested
and
reincarcerated,
presumably
in
jail,
because,
like
you
said,
the
courts,
although
not
been
shut
down,
they've
been
much
slower
to
get
to
the
cases.
So
you've
done
an
analysis
for
us
on.
I
think
eight
million
dollars
is
your
request
coming
forward
on
the
state
budget,
but
the
county
budgets
will.
K
K
What's
the
impact
of
the
county
budget
because
they
have
to
bear
the
brunt
of
the
governor's
decision
and
these
re-arrests
so
have
we
done
the
analysis
on
what
the
impact
will
be
negatively
on
the
county
jail
and
the
county
jail's
budget.
H
H
H
I
think
we'll
also
find
that
when
we
talk
about
felony
offenders,
we'll
have
to
wait
and
see
what
the
courts
say.
Even
if
a
person
is
convicted
that
may
be
of
a
felony,
it
may
not
be
again.
The
courts
are
the
arbiter
of
whether
or
not
an
individual
is
guilty
of
a
crime
and
of
what
crime
they
are
guilty
of.
We
don't
we
don't
punish
people.
In
my
view,
we
don't
make
adverse
decisions
about
people
based
on
a
crime
for
which
someone
was
charged
but
never
convicted.
H
H
So
when
you
factor
all
that
in
the
numbers
that
you
suggested-
which
I
I
think
are
accurate
according
to
the
raw
aoc
data,
but
the
the
the
numbers
look
a
little
bit
different
and
it's
important
to
understand
that
most
of
these
people,
I
would
suggest,
were
already
going
to
be
released
early
if
you
define
early
as
being
released
sooner
than
the
expiration
of
your
court
imposed
sentence
because
of
statutory
good
time,
as
representative
petry
suggested
the
legislature
has
mandated,
has
written
into
law
all
sorts
of
ways
that
inmates
can
earn
early
release-
and
I
know
that's-
caused
some
confusion.
H
I
think
in
the
past,
because
to
calculate
an
inmate's
release
date.
You
can't
simply
take
the
court
imposed
sentence
minus
the
number
of
days
served.
You
also
have
to
factor
in
the
good
time
that's
been
awarded
and
that
good
time
again
is
mandated
by
by
statute
it's
earned
in
various
ways.
So
I
just
I
I
think
we
are
doing
a
fulsome
review
of
all
of
this.
H
I
think
when
we
get
to
the
end
of
it
it
will,
it
will
be
what
it
will
be
and
but
I
think
it
will
it'll
put
a
little
different
light
on
the
aoc
numbers
that
have
been
reported.
K
Secretary
harvey,
I
appreciate
that
I
think
it
will
also
put
a
different
light
and
I
agree
that
we
don't
say
someone's
guilty
until
they've
been
adjudicated
guilty
or
they've
pled
guilty
in
the
court
of
law.
I
will
also
note
that
these
numbers,
these
32
percent
that
have
been
rearrested
for
felonies
48.
K
Overall,
within
the
confines
of
one
year,
we
normally
look
at
recidivism
rates,
going
back
as
a
look
back
of
five
years,
so
it's
probably
much
higher
than
that
now,
because
that
data
is,
is
now
a
few
months
old
with
respect
to
re-arrest
and
I'm
glad
to
know
that
we're
doing
a
fulsome
review.
In
your
word,
I
wish
we
had
done
a
fulsome
review
in
the
beginning
secretary.
K
I
know
you
weren't
there,
but
we
were
told
a
couple
weeks
ago
that
we
did
not
consider
the
ch
the
charges
that
these
persons
were
charged
with,
ultimately
only
the
conviction.
That's
nonsensical,
as
you
know,
which,
in
a
world
where
we
amend
down
things
and
we're
not
talking
about
sentencing,
we're
talking
about
commutations
and
pardons.
So
don't
give
me
this
violation
of
constitutional
right
nonsense,
because
we
know
it
doesn't
violate
someone's
constitutional
rights
when
we're
talking
about
pardons
and
commutations.
I'm
not
talking
about
sentencing.
That's
the
nonsense.
We
were
given
a
couple
weeks
ago.
K
We
also
know
that
that
you,
that
not
you
secretary,
that
the
governor's
administration
did
not
contact
previous
victims.
I
don't
understand
that
and
he
did
not
contact
prosecutors.
Rightfully,
governor
bevin
was
raked
over
the
coals
for
not
contacting
prosecutors
in
his
pardons
when
he
left
office,
governor
beshear's
administration
should
have
contacted
prosecutors
before
he
released
individual
prisoners.
We
also
know
that
the
information
we
were
given
the
parameters
of
these
releases
was
not
used.
K
When
we
talk
about
some
folks
we're
close
to
release
that's
true,
but
a
number
of
people
had
more
than
10
years
left
to
serve,
we
were
told
that
it
they
wouldn't
even
be
in
the
category
if
they
were
sentenced
for
more
than
five
years.
A
number
of
folks
had
more
than
10
years
left
to
serve.
Also,
the
governor's
administration
is
on
record
in
the
courier
journal
recently
as
not
having
released
anyone
who
committed
a
violent
offense.
K
There
were
a
number
of
people
who
released,
who
were
convicted
charged
with
much
more
but
were
convicted
of
wanton
endangerment
for
the
people
of
kentucky
wanton
endangerment
is
defined
in
kentucky,
as
a
person
is
guilty
guilty
of
wanton
endangerment.
In
the
first
degree,
a
number
of
them
were
when
under
circumstances
manifesting
extreme
indifference
to
the
value
of
human
life,
manifesting
extreme
indifference
to
the
value
of
human
life.
He
wantedly
engages
in
conduct
which
creates
a
substantial
danger
of
death
or
serious
physical
injury
to
another
person.
That
is
not
a
property
crime.
K
There's
a
person
crime
that
is
a
violent
crime.
Governor
beshear
released
a
number
of
people
who
had
been
charged
with
wanton
endangerment.
He
didn't
contact
the
previous
victim.
He
didn't
contact
the
prosecutor,
I'm
glad
we're
doing
a
fulsome
review
of
who
these
people
are
now
we
should
have
done
it
before
we
released
them.
My
question
now,
because
you've
mentioned
a
lot
of
important
things
that
we
need
to
know
that
we
don't
know,
go
secret.
Senator
carroll
has
asked
for
months
ago
because
you
guys
have
talked
about
this
good
time
and
I
think
that's
great.
K
K
Where
is
it?
Why
don't
we
have
it?
We've
also
requested
I've
requested
for
information
on
these
individual
inmates
that
you've
released.
What
we
have
is
we
have
the
name.
We
have
the
amount
of
time
that
they
were
served.
They
were
sentenced
to
the
amount
of
time
they
served
and
what
they
were,
what
they
were
serving
for,
what
conviction
they
were
serving
for
what
I've
asked
for.
In
addition,
off
of
the
aoc
information
is
of
these
individuals,
let's
say
a
guy
named
chris
smith,
whatever
just
hypothetical
chris
smith,
chris
smith
was
released.
K
K
So
what
information,
when
are
we
going
to
get
the
answer
to
that
request?
Let's
start
with
senator
carroll's
and
then
let's
go
to
the
more
fulsome
review,
the
more
the
more
the
broader
information
that
we
requested
and
do
I
need
to
put
that
in
writing.
I've
now
said:
ask
for
it
the
second
time
verbally.
H
And
there's
there's
a
lot
in
what
you
said
and
much
of
it.
I
would
like
to
respond
to
there
and
again
I
respect
you
very
much
and
I
know
you're
very
knowledgeable,
obviously
about
the
law.
I
think
we
can
respect
one
another
and
draw
different
conclusions
and
have
disagreements
about
the
facts
in
some
instances
and
in
this
case
respectfully
we
do.
F
H
H
K
Secretary,
I
appreciate
that
one
endangerment,
if
you're
going
to
add
to
this
kentucky
statute,
should
have
been
added
as
well.
There
were
number
that
were
added
and
I
do
want
to
note
two
two
quick
points:
you're
a
former
prosecutor,
the
prosecutors
were
not
contacted.
Why
is
that
important
secretary?
In
my
view,
that's
important,
because
you
guys
didn't
look
at
what
the
people
were
charged
with
and
didn't
look
at
their
criminal
history.
You
looked
at
what
they
were
serving
for.
Initially,
that
is
wildly
incompete
irresponsible.
K
It's
irresponsible
for
two
reasons.
The
two
points
I
want
to
make
quickly.
Mr
chairman.
I
know
this
is
important
because
we
have
secretary
harvey
here
and
and
he's
of
his
someone
of
his
stature,
I'm
happy.
We
have
him,
have
this
colloquy
with
him,
this
conversation
with
him
one,
a
prosecutor,
as
you
know,
can
tell
the
governor
his
administration
when
he's
thinking
about
commuting
a
sentence,
this
person's
okay,
this
one
hold
on,
let's
pump
the
brakes,
that's
what
we
learned
in
the
bevin
pardons.
We
know
this
to
be
true.
K
H
H
H
In
terms
of
consulting
with
prosecutors,
look
there's
there's
nobody
that
respects
the
role
of
a
prosecutor.
More
than
me,
I've
been
a
county
attorney
for
eight
years.
I
had
the
honor
to
be
a
u.s
attorney
for
seven
years.
H
We
didn't
really
know
what
covid
was.
We
just
knew.
It
was
a
deadly
virus.
We
had
no
vaccine
against
it.
We
had
no
treatment
for
it.
We
had
very
little
testing,
and
I
know
this
from
my.
I
was
in
public
protection.
At
the
time,
everybody
in
the
administration,
every
single
person
was
involved
in
a
worldwide
scramble
to
find
ppe
to
equip
our
correctional
officers,
and
we
weren't
always
successful
in
doing
that,
and
we
were
in
a
situation
where
people
were
getting
sick
and
people
were
dying
and
not
just
inmates.
H
H
K
K
From
that's
from
what
you
disagree
with
data
that
the
department
of
corrections
is
provided,
then,
because
the
department
of
corrections
gave
us
a
list
of
over
1700
people
that
were
released,
a
number
of
them
had
more
than
10
years
left
to
serve.
I
would
suggest
that
commissioner
cruz
get
you
that
data
so
that
you
can
look
at
it
for
yourself.
It's
just
a
simple
mathematics
now,
if
you're
talking
about,
if
you're
talking
about
applying
good
time,
served,
we've
asked
for
that
information
for
months
and
have
not
been
given
to
so.
K
K
All
right
and
I'm
making
all
these
all
everything
I
say
is
based
off
of
information
that
I've
received
from
the
department
of
corrections
or
the
administrative
office
of
the
courts,
and
I
can
point
to
each
individual
line
if
we
need
to-
and
I
can
even
name
the
inmates
that
I'm
referring
to
the
ones
that
have
been
convicted
of
violent,
wanton
endangerment
which
I've
just
just
read
the
description
that
requires
death
or
serious
physical
injury
in
in
the
definition
as
I've
noted,
but
a
couple
of
things
you
said
we
can't.
K
We
can't
give
this
information
this
decision
to
the
prosecutor.
No
one
said
that
I
said
it's
important
context
of
the
governor
didn't
see
fit
to
seek
and
with
respect
to
where
we
were
on
covert.
No
doubt
we
were
in
dangerous
situations,
no
one
on
on
this
committee
or
any
committee
that
I've
served
on
has
quibbled
with
the
decision
to
release
some
inmates,
my
brother's
a
correction
officer
in
louisville.
I
know
how
important
this
is.
How
serious
this
is.
K
What
we're
saying
is
the
execution
of
the
decision
was
was
dangerous
and
that's
what
the
the
facts
seem
to
have
borne
out.
We'll
see
more
information
later,
but
I
wouldn't
would
last
point
I
wanted
to
make
this.
The
second
one
I
was
going
to
make
earlier
is
that
when
you
don't
look
at
the
context
of
who
the
individual
is
you
just
put
everybody
in
a
category?
I
want
to
suggest
to
you,
sir,
that
you
would
have
released
al
capone.
K
Al
capone
was
one
of
the
most
nasty
violent
criminals
in
the
history
of
america,
but
he
was
convicted
for
tax
tax
evasion.
I
think
it
would
be
important
if
we're
going
to
release
someone
like
al
capone
during
covet
that
we
ask
the
prosecutor
and
that
we
consider
his
actual
behavior
and
not
just
his
conviction,
we're
not
talking
about
sentencing
we're
talking
about
whether
someone
should
be
released
from
prison
and
sent
out
into
our
communities.
K
These
people
were
sent
out
into
our
communities
without
talking
to
previous
victims
without
talking
to
prosecutors,
to
get
the
context
and
without
considering
who
they
actually
were.
I
think
that
was
wildly
inappropriate.
I
think
it
was
dangerous
and
I
think
it's
committed.
I
think
it's
caused
a
number
of
victims
in
kentucky
that
wouldn't
have
and
shouldn't
have
been
there,
and
I
think
that's
what
the
facts
do
bear
out
and
I
look
forward
to
getting
the
rest
of
them.
Thank
you,
mr
chairman.
G
I
do
mr
chairman
and
thank
you
secretary,
harvey
it's
good
to
see
marshall
county
represented
in
the
justice
cabinet
and
welcome
sir.
G
Thank
you.
You
know
my
my
struggles
with
this
entire
process
is
in
my.
My
criticisms
have
not
been
aimed
at
corrections
it's
with
the
governor
and
how
the
decisions
were
made,
and
I
don't
think
anyone
argues
that
there
was
a
a
need
to
lessen
the
the
population
within
our
prisons
and
I,
you
know,
being
a
law
enforcement
background.
Maybe
I
view
things
a
little
bit
different
and
I
know
a
little
bit
more
about
what
some
of
these
charges
mean
and
the
people
who
commit
these
offenses.
G
So
maybe
I
was
a
little
more
sensitive
to
those
and-
and
I
really
don't
think
by
any
means
that
it
was
properly
done
and
I
think
more
time
could
have
been
put
into
assessing
each
individual
to
make
better
decisions
to
to
reach
the
same
goal.
My
question
is
this:
my
understanding
is
from
the
way
that
the
the
executive
order
was
written
that
these
folks,
who
have
been
who've
reoffended
once
they
are
convicted,
that
their
sentence
will
be
picked
back
up
whatever
sentence
they
had
on
the
shelf.
G
H
G
G
H
You
know
you,
you
used
a
very
important
word
there
senator
and
it
is
good
to
see
you
it's.
It's
always
good
to
see
marshall
county
represented
in
our
capital.
We
need
more
of
that.
I'm
sure
that's
one
thing
we'll
agree
on.
I
agree.
H
H
G
Okay-
and
I
you
know
to
an
extent,
I
think
the
credibility
was
somewhat
diminished
when
the
order
came
back
about
the
reinstatement
of
voter
rights,
and
I
think
that
gave
it
more
of
a
political
edge.
At
that
point,
I
think
it
took
away
some
of
the
governor's
credibility
and
as
to
the
request
that
I've
made,
I
don't
know
how
difficult
or
how
much
clearer
we
can
make
that
request
for
those
who
who
are
outside
the
parameters
set
by
the
governor
who
had
sick
time
or
I'm
sorry
who
had
a
good
time
credits.
G
G
It
is
okay,
yes,
but
I
I
guess
I
don't
understand
why
that
information
hasn't
been
sent
when
I
made
it
very
clear
months
ago,
and
if
there
had
been
questions,
it
would
have
been
very
easy
for
someone
to
ask
for
clarification
and
I
never
got
any
response.
So
it's
simply
for
those
who
are
outside
the
parameters
and
good
time
was
applied.
G
What
was
the
good
time?
How
how
much
time
was
it?
And
you
know
what
was
a
good
time
for,
and
I
know
that
corrections
is
going
through
civil
action
right
now
in
relation
to
the
application
of
good
time
and
inconsistencies
in
that,
and
maybe
that
factors
in
with
inability
for
you
all
to
do
that?
G
But
the
fact
that
I
haven't
got
it
after
months
of
asking
makes
me
a
little
more
suspicious,
and
I
don't
I
don't
like
that.
Feeling
of
suspicion
and
again
my
criticisms
have
not
been
towards
you
all.
It's
been
towards
your
boss,
and-
and
I
I
could
go
on-
I
won't
but
we're
just
asking
for
cooperation,
because
absolutely
looking
at
the
numbers,
I
feel
like
the
public
has
every
right
to
get
clarification
on
those
who
were
released
when
32
percent
of
those
folks
have
been
charged
with
felonies
and
again
24
years
on
the
streets.
G
I
understand
the
offenses,
the
drug
trafficking
charges
and
the
lies
that
those
people
got
back
out
on
the
streets
and
and
I'm
sure
many
started
trafficking
again
and
the
lives
that
they
impacted.
So
it's
not
as
innocent
as
you
all
would
like
to
make
it
sound
based
on
a
legal
definition.
G
G
You
can't
just
hide
behind
generalities.
Those
are
individuals
who
put
our
public
at
risk,
as
is
evident
by
the
re-offenses
so,
but
I
would
appreciate
in
I
will
ask
our
program,
oversight
and
investigations
committee
staff
to
generate
a
formal
letter
requesting
specifically
what
it
is
that
I'm
asking
for
and
mr
secretary
we'll
make
sure
that
you
personally
get
a
copy
of
that.
And
thank
you,
mr
chairman,
and.
H
H
H
Credit
is
perhaps
a
little
more
complicated
than
it
would
seem,
and-
and
I'm
learning
this
as
I
go
admittedly-
but
it's
it's
a
river-
it's
not
a
lake,
it
is
not
static,
so
an
inmate-
and
this
is
all
mandated
by
the
legislature
and
statute
for
ways
that
inmates
can
be
released
early.
An
inmate
may
complete
an
educational
course
and
he
or
she
gets
90
days
good
time
credit
the
next
month
they
may
create
another
one.
So
this
is
a
the
release
date
and
the
credits
accumulated
are
fluctuate
all
the
time.
H
They're
rolling-
and
I
just
don't
know
what
difficulties
might
be
involved
in
assembling
that
data,
but
I
think
we
can
we
can
give
we.
We
can
reason
about
that
and
we
can
tell
you
what
form
the
data
might
take
and
I
would
just
for
a
little
historical
context
about
the
governor
restoring
voting
rights.
I
mean
that's
something
he
actually
did.
I
think,
on
his
third
day
in
office.
It's
something
that
he
campaigned
on.
H
But
we
will
work
with
you
to
to
get
you
the
information
that
that
you've
requested-
and
I
do
want
to
try
to
determine
from
the
people
who
have
to
to
deal
with
this
record,
keeping
to
figure
out
what
form
that
takes,
because
I'm
told
it's
not
as
easy
as
just
hitting
the
print
button
on
a
computer
and
commissioner
cruz.
Probably
can
you
address
that.
F
Well,
I
I
have
brought
an
expert
with
me
that
can
kind
of
give
you
an
overview
about
that
calculation
of
someone's
time.
I
Good
morning,
so
an
offender
can
earn
all
kinds
of
good
time
right
off
the
top.
As
soon
as
they
come
in
per
statue,
we
apply
the
status
for
a
good
time
from
that
point
forward.
They
can
earn
various
versions
of
good
time,
as
we
have
discussed,
whether
it
be
educational
awards
for
educational
programs,
behavioral
programming,
most
of
those
will
produce
90
months
or
90
days.
So
that's
three
months
off
each
and
every
dfc
approved
program
to
earn
the
credit.
They
rack
those
up
very
quickly.
I
I
I
It
allows
them
seven
days
per
month
for
good
behavior.
That
varies
from
institution
as
it's
the
warden's
discretion.
So,
if
they're
participating
in
programs
as
long
as
there's
no
write-ups,
a
variety
of
things
determine
whether
they
get
that
seven
days
per
month
and
we
calculate
that
on
a
monthly
basis,
and
that
comes
off
so
as
they
were
talking
about
it's
a
river,
not
a
lake,
it
is
a
moving
target
constantly.
I
We
also
have
work
for
time
credits
so
any
job
that
they're
doing.
If
they're
eligible
offenders
to
receive
work
for
time
credit
they
receive
one
day
off
their
sentence
for
every
40
hours
worked
again,
that's
calculated
on
a
monthly
basis,
so
it
is
a
constant
move
in
target
and
that
release
date
for
those
who
are
behaving
themselves
participating
in
programming
that
that
release
date
is
constantly
dropping,
dropping
dropping
every
single
month
and
with
every
single
completion
of
programs.
H
I
H
Would
just
say,
as
a
final
note,
that
might
be
of
interest
that
just
there
is
some
symmetry
here,
just
as
violent
offenders
and
sex
offenders
were
not
released
as
as
part
of
the
commutation,
they
also
were
not
eligible
to
have
their
voting
rights
restored.
I
Not
eligible
to
receive
good
time,
violent
offenders
can
receive
a
small
percentage
15,
as
they're
required
to
serve
85
of
their
sentence
per
statute.
Sex
offenders
are
not
given
any
good
time
whatsoever
until
they
complete
the
two-year
sex
offender
treatment
program.
So
no
statutory,
no
programming,
no
meritorious
none
of
that
is
applied
to
any
sex
offenders
until
they
complete
that
mandatory
sex
veteran
treatment
program.
G
So
so
is
it
as
simple,
as
with
each
offender,
each
inmate's
record
within
the
database
that
all
of
that
time
is
entered
as
it
as
it
is
earned,
and
I
mean
shouldn't
there
just
be
a
printout
for
each
one,
that
that
would
show
each
program
each
each
day
or
or
whatever
each
credit
where
it
would
generate
a
list
of
each
one
of
those
credits.
I
We
we
do
have
the
offenders
resident
record
card
and
it
specifically
shows
every
entry
for
every
good
time,
credit
or
good
time
loss
for
behavior.
If
they
have
behavior
issues.
We
take
away
that
stretched
for
a
good
time
that
we
give
right
off
the
top
and
depending
on
what
their
disciplinary
offense
was,
they
can
earn
that
back
sometimes,
and
sometimes
they
can
never
give
it
back.
It
just
kind
of
depends
on
what
the
offense
was.
So
yes,
we
do
have
a
breakdown
it,
it
can
be
complicated
and
it
doesn't
total
it.
I
I
Those
credits
were
already
applied,
and
so
we
went
through,
we
went
through
the
charges
we
went
through.
We
looked
at
the
current
minimum
expiration
date
and
if
they
fell
within
that
time
frame
within
the
six
months
or
within
the
five
years,
whichever
category
the
offender
fell
in
those
credits
are
applied.
Like
we
said
it's
a
moving
target,
it's
constantly
so
as
soon
as
they
complete
it,
we
apply
those
credits
because
the
offenders
want
to
know.
Where
am
I
at
I've
completed
six
programs?
I
I
want
to
see
every
single
one
of
them
and
trust
me
if
they
don't
see
it
pretty
quickly.
They're,
writing
us
letters,
they're
not
having
mom
a
call,
so
it's
that
calculation
is
constant.
I
have
over
50
staff
in
central
office
who,
on
a
daily
basis,
are
working
through
these
calculations,
making
sure
that
they're
meeting
the
requirements
making
sure
they're
getting
every
bit
of
the
credit
that
they're
due.
G
Chairman
I
apologize.
I
have
taken
up
too
much
time.
One
final
comment:
in
relation
to
the
voting
issues
and
secretary
harvey,
I
was
given
credible
information
that
voter
registration
cards
were
distributed
with
with
inmates
releases
and
and
again
that
that
that's
makes
me
question
the
credibility
behind
what's
going
on,
and
I
will
I
will
leave
it
at
that
and,
mr
chairman,
thank
you
for
your
indulgence.
H
And
I
think
it's
important
to
know
senator
that
I
believe
that
is
a
routine
for
every
inmate
that's
been
released,
whether
they,
whether
they
have
been
paroled,
whether
they've
earned
statutory
good
time
credit
or
whether
they
serve
out
their
whole
sentence.
I
think
that
there
was
nothing
that
happened
that
was
out
of
the
routine,
but
I
I
do.
It
is
good
to
see
you
and
I
want
to
work
with
you
to
get
you
the
information
that
you've
asked
for
in
a
form,
that's
useful
to
you.
G
L
Thank
you
all.
Thank
you,
mr
chairman,
and
I'm
in
my
district
right
now,
and
it's
good
to
see
you
all.
I
appreciate
the
work
you've
done.
I'm
sitting
here,
listening.
I've
been
on
this
committee
a
long
time
and
and
broke
helped
write
the
justice
budget
in
the
house
and
I
probably
practiced
more
criminal
law
throughout
the
state
than
anybody
in
the
general
assembly.
L
So
whether
my
law
is
good
or
bad,
I
got
a
lot
of
clients
and
people
that
were
impacted
by
this.
I
want
to
commend
you
on
the
job
you
did.
I
wish
this
committee
could
have
heard
some
of
the
communications
that
I
heard
from
my
inmates
from
their
families
by
phone
by
letter
by
email,
especially
our
vulnerable
population,
and
what
I
think
we
forget
in
an
urgent
situation
such
as
this
is,
are
vulnerable
inmates.
There
is
a
physical
impact
to
this
state
in
taking
care
of
these
folks.
If
they
got
coveted.
L
None
of
these
people
got
a
death
sentence
that
were
commuted
and
they
didn't
deserve
a
death
sentence
stay
in
in
our
institutions.
L
There
would
have
been
a
a
huge
physical
impact
on
on
cost,
but
there,
more
importantly
to
me,
the
human
humanitarian
side
of
this,
that
we,
you
all
had
to
deal
with
in
an
unprecedented
unknown
territory
and
let's
the
inmates,
but
I
also
represent
corrections
officers
in
their
personal
lives
and
those
communications
to
me
were
just
as
compelling-
and
I
want
to
thank
you
again
for
taking
care
of
our
men
and
women
in
our
facilities
a
lot
of
my
constituents,
my
friends,
so
I
just
wish
you
know,
there's
just
another
side
of
this,
regardless
of
who's
sitting
in
that
executive
office
would
had
to
make
these
decisions,
and
I
I
can't
justify
a
comparison
of
a
governor
leaving
office
and
one
acting
in
the
urgent
scenario
that
we
had
we
had
so
that
to
me
is
just
apples
and
oranges.
L
L
We
especially
in
eastern
kentucky,
because
when
a
lot
of
people
don't
have
internet
on
a
good
day,
they
didn't
have
it
because
of
the
economic
impact
of
covet.
Employment
was
zero,
so
you
know
recidivism
you.
I
factor
that
in
because
I
saw
it
here
and
with
the
people
that
I
represent,
so
there
was
very
little
chance
of
successful
reentry,
but
yet
I
think
we
saved
lives.
L
So
I
think
that
needs
to
be
addressed
as
well
as
the
good
time.
I've
been
here
over
here
over
two
decades,
any
statutory
thing
that
we've
done
in
accordance
with
release
good
time
or
any
other
programmatic
things
have
been
made,
usually
in
a
bipartisan
manner.
Usually,
data
driven
we've
had
committees
on
it,
meetings
on
it
and
and
all
with
the
goal
of
not
being
the
department
of
warehousing
but
truly
being
the
department
of
corrections.
L
L
I'm
more
focused
on
solutions
preparing
for
the
next
pandemic,
taking
care
of
our
inmates
and
our
correction
officers
and
giving
you
all
the
tools
you
need
to
administratively
do
your
job
and
the
only
thing
that
I
have
that
I
had
trouble
with
and
since
I've
got
cookie
here,
I'm
going
to
mention
it
is
communication
trying
to
get
the
inmates.
I
I
you
know
trying
if
they
had
a
family
member
like
dying
of
covert,
there
were
some
institutions
that
said:
oh,
we
can't
get
to
them.
We
can't
get
this
message
to
them
till
monday.
L
I
got
a
problem
with
that.
I
think
yeah.
Okay!
Well
we'll
talk
more
about
that.
But
but
I
okay,
I
think,
had
a
family
member
dying
and
I
personally
made
an
overture
and
got
that
response
and
we
did
get
it
taken
care
of,
but
I
just
want
to
bring
that
up.
While
I
got
to
here
and
we'll
talk
more
about
that-
and
I
want
to
tell
secretary
harvey
or
that
you
know
as
a
defense
lawyer
and
him
a
prosecutor,
you
did
not
want
to
see
his
name
on
the
other
side.
L
So
I
have
a
lot
of
respect
for
him
and
believe
me,
he
will
preserve
the
interest
of
the
prosecution
while
also
balancing
his
job.
I
have
that
utmost
respect
and
for
him,
but
I
just
feel
like.
K
K
I
just
wanted
to
note
that
we
did
receive
that
information
secretary
harvey
about
the
that
you
referenced.
I
do
also
want
to
note
that
you
guys
have
referred
to
the
the
crimes
for
which
people
were
serving
as
property
crimes,
drug
crimes,
other
public
order
crimes
or
violent
crimes.
So,
even
according
to
the
bashir
administration,
you
released
violent
crimes
in
the
data
that
we
just
received.
Thank
you.
A
Thank
you
all
for
participating
in
this
animate
animated
discussion
about
the
department
of
corrections.
You
know
on
this
committee.
We
recognize
that
the
governor
has
exclusive
constitutional
authority
to
pardon
and
commute
and
to
restore
civil
rights,
for
whatever
reason
he
deems
appropriate.
A
A
D
Please
proceed
all
right.
Thank
you,
mr
chairman.
I
promise
y'all
will
be
much
shorter.
Thank
you,
mr
chairman,
and
members
of
the
committee.
Thank
you
for
your
opportunity
to
speak
with
you
today.
I'm
john
middleton,
the
kenton
circuit
clerk,
but
I
come
before
you
today
on
behalf
of
the
other
119
elected
circuit,
clerks
and,
probably,
more
importantly,
over
the
1
600
deputy
clerks
in
the
commonwealth
to
say
the
last
two
years
have
been
challenging
for
their
office
of
circuit
clerk
is
an
understatement.
D
D
Most
concerning
to
the
circuit
clerks
is
the
rise
in
wages,
and
not
only
the
private
sector,
but
also
government
offices.
Where
we
compete
for
good
employees.
We
are
facing
the
same
issues.
The
private
sector
is
facing
as
the
recent
quarterly
report
from
the
kentucky
chamber
of
commerce
noted.
Workforce
shortages
and
inflation
continue
to
be
a
huge
issue
for
employers.
D
D
D
D
I
talked
for
years
about
the
discrepancy
between
private
sector
pay.
In
the
urban
areas
and
the
pay
for
our
deputy
clerks
in
the
past
years,
the
benefits
outweighed
the
pay.
That
is
no
longer
the
case,
and
I
would
say
that
we
are
in
a
crisis
mode
in
urban
circuit,
clerk's
offices,
in
your
home
county
of
campbell.
Mr
chairman,
many
of
the
deputies
work
another
job
just
to
make
ends
meet
one
campbell
county
deputy
said.
D
It
is
sad
that
mcdonald's,
walmart
and
other
establishments
are
hiring
for
more
money
and
with
a
sign-on
bonus,
another
campbell
deputy
stated.
I
absolutely
love
my
position
as
deputy
clerk
in
family
court
and
I'm
very
proud
of
what
I
do.
Unfortunately,
with
my
current
salary,
I
had
to
make
the
decision
to
move
out
of
my
apartment
and
back
home
with
my
parents,
because
I
could
no
longer
afford
my
bills.
The
deputy
clerks
do
not
even
receive
a
raise
for
the
cost
of
living.
The
salary
we
make
now
would
be
accepted
for
subsidized
housing.
D
Our
salaries
have
created
a
crisis
in
my
office
in
kenton
county,
with
eight
deputies
recently,
leaving
for
other
jobs
for
more
pay
in
boone
county.
The
chief
deputy
makes
over
20
thousand
dollars
less
than
a
counterpart
in
county
office,
but
the
urban
areas
are
no
longer
the
only
offices
affected.
The
logan
circuit
clerk
lost
a
deputy
to
another
government
office,
paying
fourteen
thousand
dollars
more.
The
marshall
circuit
clerk
has
a
deputy
who's,
a
single
mother
of
three
who
works
two
other
jobs
to
stay
afloat
in
bullitt
county.
D
The
chief
deputy
makes
over
thirty
thousand
dollars
less
than
a
chief
deputy
in
another
county
office.
Deputy
clerks
on
average
make
eight
to
ten
thousand
dollars
less
than
deputies
and
other
government
offices.
With
the
same
amount
of
experience,
one
employee
left
the
office
to
go
to
another
and
is
making
ten
thousand
dollars
more
within
four
four
miles
of
the
bullet
circuit
clerk's
office.
Every
gas
station
fast
food
restaurant
has
openings
paying
more
than
we
pay
and
with
signing
bonuses
and
to
put
icing
on
the
cake.
D
The
cleaning
staff
make
more
for
scrubbing,
toilets
than
handling
important
court
documents
in
larue
county,
the
son
of
one
of
the
deputy
clerks,
a
recent
high
school
graduate
makes
more
than
his
factory
at
his
factory
job
than
his
mother.
Another
deputy
has
to
get
groceries
from
a
church
food
pantry
and
take
out
a
loan
to
make
ends
meet
after
her
husband
suffered
an
injury
in
garrett
county,
a
deputy
clerk
resigned
to
start
selling
homemade
bread.
D
D
J
Thank
you
for
presentation.
I
do
have
a
question,
the
the
information.
I
know
we're
going
to
have
to
look
at
the
data
before
we
make
those
kind
of
determinations,
and
I
it's
my
understanding
that
maybe
even
before
I
got
here
that
there
was
a
significant
allocation,
maybe
in
18
or
19
that
went
to
the
clerks.
J
Is
there
a
data
report
or
something
that
shows
how
that
money
was
dispersed?
How
how
was
it
utilized
for
the
clerk's
salaries?
Was
it
used
for
deputies?
Was
it
across
the
board?
Is
there
some
kind
of
data
or
paperwork
from
each?
I
guess
be
redundant
to
say
it,
but
120
offices
that
show
how
that
money
was
received
and
how
it
was
allocated.
In
other
words,
was
it
given
as
an
increase
to
the
salary
to
the
the
clerk,
or
was
it
also
spread
among
the
deputies?
Is
there
increases
decreases
et
cetera.
D
J
D
D
Tell
you
exactly
how
that
how
that
process
works,
but
then
court
of
justice,
chief
justice,
you
know,
sets
the
budget
and
you
know
the
salaries
are
the
are
the
same
throughout
so
the
you
know,
the
increases
would
have
been
the
same
for
for
deputy
clerks
or
elected
clerks
or
other
personnel
in
the
court
of
justice,
but
my
understanding
was
that
everybody
in
the
court
of
justice
received
a
small
increase,
but
you
know
that
salaries
now
have
exploded
in
you
know
since
then,
and
that's
what
we're
facing
we're
facing
trying
to
compete
against
other.
J
I
certainly
understand
why
they
are
losing
people
to
boone
county
to
other
agencies
where
they
can
leave
the
ksp
and
go
and
make
20
000
more.
So
I
get
the
factual
problem,
I'm
just
trying
from
a
budgetary
being
conservative
perspective
of
seeing
how,
because
I
wasn't
here
how
historically
that
money
has
been
infused
into
the
clerk's
offices
and
how
that
money
has
been
spread
across
the
employees.
D
D
That
is
correct.
We're
working
with
them
there's
a
compensation
commission
at
the
aoc
at
the
court
of
justice
that
is
working
on
the
numbers
to
see
where
we're
at.
D
We're
not
requesting
anything
at
this
point
we're
just
you
know,
laying
out
the
problem
and
we're
gonna
be
working
with
the
the
chief
and
lord
dungeon
and
and
the
judges
and
all
all
members
of
the
court
of
justice
to
come
up
with
a
proposal
for
you
and
I
think
that'll
be
forthcoming.
K
Thanks
just
wanted
to
make
a
quick
point
that
I've
been
in
those
clerks
offices
when
they
have.
I
always
thought
I
got
set
up,
because
when
I
went
out
there
there
was
always
a
big
issue,
but
in
my
district,
just
as
another
data
point,
everybody
up
in
the
legislature
on
this
committee
certainly
knows
this,
but
there's
a
I'm
worried
about
the
taxpayer.
K
Here
we,
some
of
my
restaurants,
fast
food
restaurants,
are
advertising
for
fifteen
dollars
an
hour
which
is
more
than
what
we're
paying
many
state
employees,
including
our
deputy
clerks
and
I'm
worried
about
the
return
on
investment
for
the
taxpayer.
If
we're
not
going
to
be
able
to
continue
to
recruit
and
retain
the
professional
people,
we
need
to
do
the
important
services
in
the
clerk's
office
and
all
throughout
state
government.
We
we've
reached,
I
think,
a
a
critical
point.
Maybe
this
is
a
new,
a
new
era
when
we
have
to
think
differently.
K
I
know
raising
taxes
is
difficult
and
all
these
kinds
of
things
are
difficult
to
talk
about,
but
we
have
to
do
something
or
the
taxpayer
is
not
going
to
get
the
services
that
he
and
she
are
entitled
to,
and-
and
so
I
just
wanted
to
mention
that
the
15
an
hour
point
and
that
I
think
we're
not
at
a
stage
only
as
if
it
weren't
enough
of
the
employee
looking
out
for
the
employee,
which
we
should
do,
but
I
think
now
we're
at
a
stage
where
the
taxpayer
is
going
to
start
getting
hurt
if
we
haven't
already
reached
that
stage.
D
There's
a
huge
there's,
a
huge
and
if
I
may
respond
to
that,
I
mean
there's
a
huge
cost
too,
just
like
at
any
business
of
training.
I'd
say
it
typically
takes
about
six
months
to
have
a
basic
understanding
of
being
a
deputy
clerk
takes
about
three
years
to
be
able
to
really
have
an
understanding,
and
at
that
point
that's
when
we
start
losing
people
is
at
that
three-year
mark,
and
so
there's
a
huge
cost
to
the
system
for
not
being
able
to
keep
our
folks.
A
Thank
you
john.
I
appreciate
the
testimony
we'll
keep
this
request
in
mind.
Come
january.
Thanks
hold
on
represent
petrie,
has
a
question.
B
Yes,
mr
chamber,
yes,
mr
chairman,
thank
you
very
much
just
very
quickly.
I
know
you're
working
with
aoc
on
working
out
numbers,
but
how
quickly
can
that
be
communicated
to
us.
D
I'm
not
sure
where
we
are
in
in
in
that
process.
I
would
hope
shortly
we'll
be
having
this
there's
conversations,
I'm
not
a
member
of
the
compensation
commission
and
that
you
know
those
num,
that's
who
who's
who's
working
at
that.
B
B
A
M
M
Restorative
justice
has
a
very
successful
track
record
in
jefferson
county
and
two
years
ago,
we
were
invited
to
consider
how
we
might
pilot
this
project
outside
of
an
urban
area
and
see
if
it
can
effectively
be
replicated
in
a
more
rural
part
of
kentucky
with
an
ultimate
goal.
If
we
can
prove
its
efficacy
in
reducing
recidivism
keeping
communities
safer,
keeping
youth
out
of
detention
and
diverted
from
the
juvenile
justice
system
and
saving
taxpayer
dollars.
How
might
we
consider
taking
this
model
to
scale
and
having
it
be
a
key
part
of
juvenile
justice
reform?
M
So
with
that
in
mind,
we
implemented
this
pilot
project
in
seven
southeastern
kentucky
counties
in
partnership
with
the
local
attorneys
and
judges
and
other
stakeholders,
and
have
a
research
partner
at
eastern
kentucky
university.
That
has
been
providing
very
accountable,
objective
observation
of
metrics,
and
so
my
colleagues
today
are
going
to
share
with
you
the
results.
To
date
now
keep
in
mind,
we
have
been
greatly
impacted
by
covid.
M
I'm
joined
today
by
libby
mills,
who
is
the
founding
executive
director
of
restorative
justice,
which
is
now
a
part
of
volunteers
of
america
and
judge
angela
bisic
who's
doing
double
duty.
She
has
a
trial
this
morning,
but
she
is
going
to
do
her
best
to
to
summarize
her
involvement
at
the
end
of
libby's
presentation.
M
Judge
bisig
is
one
of
the
founders
of
restorative
justice
and,
as
someone
who
understands
this
model
after
a
decade
of
implementation,
to
be
a
very
smart
approach
to
addressing
criminal
behavior
with
our
young
people,
so
libby
I'm
going
to
turn
it
over
to
you
now.
M
N
But
first
I
want
to
give
a
definition
of
restorative
justice
and
this
and
just
to
let
you
know
and
I'll,
be
very
quick
with
these
slides
that
there's
no
one
accepted
definition
of
restorative
justice,
but
this
is
the
one
that's
used
most
extensively
in
relation
to
work
in
the
criminal
justice
system,
so
restorative
justice
is
a
process
to
involve,
to
the
extent
possible
those
who
have
a
stake
in
a
specific
offense
and
to
collectively
identify
and
address,
harms
needs
and
obligations
in
order
to
heal
and
put
things
right
and
one
of
the
things
I
want
to
talk
about
as
we
go
through.
N
N
N
We
receive
referrals
like
jennifer,
said
from
the
court
designated
worker
program
in
juvenile
court,
so
in
fy
21
we
received
13
referrals
of
the
51
referrals
into
the
juvenile
justice
system
in
those
seven
counties,
so
you
can
see
that
not
only
were
our
referrals
impacted,
but
referrals
into
the
juvenile
justice
system
in
those
seven
counties
was
also
significantly
impact.
N
Today,
as
a
september
30th
of
fy
22
we've
seen,
we
received
five
of
16
referrals,
which
gives
us
about
a
third
of
30
percent
of
the
referrals
into
the
res
into
the
juvenile
justice
system.
N
We
are
receiving
referrals
that
are
involve
all
misdemeanor
offenses
except
sexual
offenses
and
then
low
level,
felonies,
usually
class
d,
felonies
and
sometimes
we'll
get
a
class
c.
H
N
N
N
What
are
the
reasons
that
they're
not
going
forward
and
for
all
the
cases
that
did
not
go
forward
in
this
first
in
fy
21
the
people
who
were
harmed
or
the
victims
of
the
offenses
decided
they
did
not
wish
to
proceed
with
the
process,
and
here
are
the
types
of
charges
that
we
receive
in
our
southeastern
kentucky.
You
can
see
us
almost
70
percent
of
the
referrals.
N
N
We
are
implementing
a
partnership
with
jefferson
county
public
schools,
where
we
are
working
in
five
identified,
elementary
schools
and
at
and
working
with
youth
children,
rather
that
normally
due
to
their
behavioral
issues
or
the
behavioral
incidents,
would
be
considered
for
suspension
if
jsp
has
allowed
suspensions.
So
we're
starting
that
partnership
to
see
if
we
can
expand
their
restorative
justice
or
their
restorative
practices.
N
Continuum
in
the
schools-
and
we
have
a
pending
project
with
djj
that
we
hope
to
implement
in
the
next
few
months
to
include
implementing
restorative
justice
practices
with
youth
on
probation,
as
well
as
reentry
circles
for
kids
that
are
returning
from
out
of
home
placement.
N
So
we'll
keep
you
updated
on
that
project
as
it
gets
implemented
for
young
adults,
and
our
young
adults
are
usually
18
to
26
years
old.
But,
however,
we
have
had
40
year
olds
and
most
recently
we
had
a
62
year
old,
referred
to
us,
so
in
district
court,
we're
doing
we're
receiving
referrals
of
misdemeanors
and
generally
low-level
low-level
felonies,
also
excluding
no
sexual
offenses
and
in
circuit
court.
N
We
started
a
circuit
court
diversion
project
in
january
of
this
year
and
we
are
looking
at
young
adults
there
too,
who
are
eligible
for
diversion
with
felony,
offenses
and
judge
mckay
shavann's
courtroom
in
circuit
court,
we're
also
implementing
smart
probation
circles.
He
has
a
special
probation
project
in
his
courtroom
and
we
are
working
with
the
people
who
are
involved
in
this
pro
in
this
program
in
his
courtroom,
the
ones
that
are
having
difficulty
engaging
with
probation
or
their
conditions,
diversion
conditions
with
office
of
probation
and
parole.
N
And
so
you
can
see
here
are
jefferson
county
numbers.
These
are
youth
numbers
over
four
years
and
the
data
I'm
referring
to
with
these
fiscal
years,
where
I
get
total
number
of
charges
into
the
juvenile
justice
system,
is
from
aoc's
website
where
they
have
the
forward-facing
data
information,
and
you
can
see
that
we're
being
consistent,
even
in
the
years
impacted
by
covet,
we're
still
being
still
consistent
with
the
number
of
referrals
that
we're
getting.
N
And
then
we
can
look
at
the
number
of
young
adults
and
those
are
just
looking
at
percentages,
their
the
populations
that
we're
receiving.
So
you
can
look
at
our
court
diversion
and
our
cd
diversion
numbers
are
always
fairly
equal
and
then
the
types
of
charges
we're
getting
in
jefferson
county
are
very
consistent
with
the
types
of
charges
that
we're
receiving
in
southeastern
kentucky
and
then
for
our
conference
completions.
N
This
was
at
the
end
of
fiscal
year,
so
it
would
have
been
june
30th
that
we
had
of
the
cases
that
were
referred
during
that
year.
40
had
completed
our
restorative
justice
conference
process,
31
had
not
completed
and
there
were
still
twenty
nine
percent
of
the
cases
that
were
referred,
but
there
were
still
printings
still
in
process
and
that's
the
information
we
would
like
to
share
today
so
and
then
is
just
visit
with
us.
Or
does
she
have
to
go
back
to
court.
A
All
right,
I
do
have
one
question:
do
you
keep
track
of
recidivism
statistics
for
those
who
complete
your
diversion
programs.
N
Yes,
we
do,
and
with
the
southeast
kentucky
project,
we
haven't
been
able
to
do
that
recidivism
study
yet
because
we
measure
recidivism
a
year
from
case
closure.
So
we're
just
getting
to
the
point
where
we
can
do
that
recidivism
study,
but
our
numbers
are
so
small.
N
A
N
It's
been
going
since
2011
and
we
have
one
study
that
was
completed
and
what
we
found
with
that-
and
it
was
a
very
preliminary
study-
was
that
of
the
cases
that
were
referred
to
us
of
those
that
completed
the
restorative
justice
conference
process.
There
was
a
26
recidivism,
but
not
any
the
new
charges
were
not
any
more
serious
than
the
charges
that
were
referred
of.
The
cases
did
not.
That
did
not
complete
the
restorative
justice
price
conference
process.
There
was
over
a
50
recidivism
rate.
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
A
Okay,
this
meeting
is
back
in
session.
I
understand
the
judge
is
in
court.
Cannot,
yes,
is
there
anything
else?
You
would
like
to
sum
up,
or
we.
M
We
appreciate
your
time
this
morning
and
your
willingness
to
let
us
attempt
to
locate,
judge
specific.
Unfortunately,
she
cannot
escape
trial
again
at
this
time.
We
look
forward
to
continuing
this
conversation
with
you
regarding
the
potential
for
restorative
justice
to
heat,
to
have
an
even
greater
impact
across
the
commonwealth,
and
thank
you
so
much
for
your
time.
This
morning,.