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From YouTube: Interim Joint Committee on Judiciary (12-15-22)
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A
It
impresses
upon
the
court
its
duty
to
inform
the
persons
whose
rights
as
an
adult
have
been
limited,
that
they
have
the
right
to
seek
modification
and
termination
in
the
future.
If
circumstances
change
and
once
the
ward
is
back
in
front
of
the
court,
it
expands
their
ability
to
be
heard
not
just
by
a
judge
but
by
a
jury
if
they
want
and
it
expands
their
ability
and
the
Court's
ability
on
what
changes
can
be
made.
A
A
B
Good
morning,
I'm
Dr
Sheila
Schuster
a
licensed
psychologist
and
executive
director
of
the
Kentucky
mental
health
Coalition
thanks
to
Chairman
Westerfield
and
to
the
committee
members
for
allowing
me
to
speak.
This
morning,
the
mental
health
Coalition
came
together
in
1982
to
speak
with
one
voice
on
issues
impacting
kentuckians
with
mental
illness,
substance
use
disorders,
Developmental
and
intellectual
disabilities
and
acquired
brain
injuries.
The
80
plus
Coalition
members
include
providers
agencies
and
hospitals
kentuckians
with
lived
experience,
their
family
members
and
advocates.
B
You
also
know
me,
as
the
co-chair
of
the
874k
disabilities,
Coalition
and
I.
While
that
group
does
not
take
policy
stands,
I
want
to
tell
you
that
working
with
that
group,
as
well
as
with
the
mental
health
Coalition
I,
so
value,
giving
a
voice
to
those
with
lived
experience,
and
that's
really
what
this
bill
does.
This
really
brings
the
person
who
is
disabled
or
partially
disabled
to
the
table
and
gives
them
a
voice
in
the
way
that
their
life
is
conducted.
B
We
are
in
support
of
br-37
being
presented
today.
Among
the
additional
notifications
and
Communications
with
the
individual
that
are
contained
in
this
bill
include
the
the
requirement
that
more
information
be
gathered
and
available
regarding
near
an
extended
family
members
who
may
play
a
role
with
the
individual,
it
assures
that
the
individual
is
apprised
of
any
pending
civil
or
criminal
actions
that
are
filed
against
him
or
her
and
requires
notification
by
the
conservator
or
Guardian
that
these
notifications
be
made.
B
It
affirms
the
individual's
right
to
contact
and
retain
legal
counsel.
Importantly,
it
gives
the
individual
the
right
to
modify
or
terminate
their
current
guardian
or
conservator
Arrangement
and
provides
for
court
appointed
counsel
if
needed.
In
such
cases,
br-37
continues
the
long-standing
requirement
which
we
wholeheartedly
support
for
a
jury
trial
for
the
determination
of
a
disability
unless
ruled
unnecessary.
For
the
very
specific
reasons
it
provides.
B
D
Thank
you,
representative
Mentor.
Thank
you,
Senator
Westerfield,
and
thank
you
to
all
the
distinguished
members
of
The
Joint
Committee.
My
name
is
Lindsey
Burke
I
am
the
representative
elect
for
house
district,
75
and
I
look
forward
to
joining
you
in
January.
It's
my
privilege
today
to
come
to
you
on
behalf
of
this
bill.
The
Care
Act
is
an
important
piece
of
legislation,
because
it's
taking
good
law
and
making
it
great
law.
It's
been
one
of
the
great
privileges
of
my
legal
career
to
represent
people
in
need
of
guardianship.
D
D
By
making
these
small
but
important
changes,
we
can
ensure
that
people
of
all
ability
levels
are
able
to
speak
their
minds
through
Council,
whether
appointed
or
hired,
and
that
protections
will
be
available
for
them
if
they
find
that
they're
in
a
position
of
exploitation,
it
will
be
my
incredible
honor
to
carry
this
forward
into
the
next
session.
I
welcome
you
to
come
to
me
with
any
questions
or
suggestions
and
I
sincerely
look
forward
to
working
with
you
in
the
coming
years.
Thank
you
so
much
thank.
C
A
C
No,
you
need
never
apologize,
you're,
all
good
while
I'm
gonna
have
secretary
friedlander
and
the
folks
from
chfs
come
up
for
item
number
three
on
the
agenda,
but
while
we're
doing
that
before
we
get
into
these
last
two
items,
I'm
gonna
I
want
to
take
a
moment
and
and
recognize
because
I
I
expect
the
meeting
might
run
a
bit
long
and
in
case
we
lose
folks.
I
wanted
to
do
this
now
and
I
wanted
to
recognize
our
outgoing
members
of
the
committee.
C
We've
got
several
that
are
leaving
the
committee
who
are
retiring
from
service
or
leaving
the
office
and
I
wanted
to
recognize
those
folks
representative,
Cantrell
representative
Fisher,
representative
McCoy,
representative
Mentor,
representative
Scott
and,
of
course,
chairman
Ed
Massey,
who
gives
his
apologies.
C
He
is
stuck
in
Boone
County
in
court
and
cannot
get
here
in
time
for
the
hearing
and
I
hate
that
for
our
chairman
and
of
course,
my
good
friends
in
the
Senate
Senator
Alice
forgey
Kerr,
who
I
will
miss
more
in
the
Senate
chamber
as
my
seat
mate
across
the
aisle
there
than
than
in
here,
though,
I'll
miss
you
in
here
too,
we
need
some
more
alices
in
here,
that's
100
and
then
of
course,
my
my
very
good
friend
and
colleague
and
former
Vice
chair
Senator
will
Schroeder
your
service
to
this
committee
has
been
important
to
all
of
you.
C
All
of
you
have
been
critical.
You
have
provided
Insight
expertise,
patience
and
your
talent
and
skill,
and
your
your
families
have
served
with
you
and
you
have
brought
honor
to
the
institution
that
you
served
and
I'm
thankful
for
each
of
you
and
I'm
going
to
miss
you.
Thank
you
all
very
much
with
that.
I
said,
I
want
to
go
ahead
and
jump
right
in
to
some
agenda
items
that
are
not
nearly
as
fun
to
talk
about,
but
are
still
important,
and
we
need
to
spend
time
on
them.
C
I
brought
you
all
in
because
of
what
happened
to
the
Brooklawn
facility,
where
a
seven-year-old
was
was
killed,
died
because
of
things
that
went
on
and
I
know.
Some
steps
have
been
taken
there
at
that
facility,
but
I
wanted
to
hear
from
you.
I
want
to
know
what's
happening
at
Brooklawn,
what's
happening
at
other
facilities
like
it,
I
want
to
know,
what's
being
done
to
prevent
it
from
happening
again
and
I
wanted
to
give
you
a
chance
to
tell
us
what
the
heck
happened
and
answer
those
questions
and
answers.
C
E
E
The
presentation
on
the
previous
bill
is
the
second
most
difficult
thing
we
do,
which
is
Guardianship
the
most
difficult
thing
we
do
in
the
Cabinet
for
Health
and
Family
Services.
The
most
critical
for
citizens
of
the
Kentucky
and
children
are
our
our
investigations
and
protection
of
our
most
vulnerable
citizens
and
that's
the
children
who
are
subject
or
at
risk
of
abuse
and
neglect
I'm,
going
to
start
with
a
broad
overview,
we're
still
working
through
some
things,
with
Brooklawn
and
specific
facilities.
E
E
Too
often,
when
children,
when
there
is
a
child
fatality,
oftentimes
dcbs
has
been
involved
at
some
point,
either
with
the
family
with
the
child,
and
at
that
point
we
make
the
best
recommendation
we
can,
when
we
recommend
a
child,
is
removed
from
their
parents
custody.
That
is
probably
the
most
difficult
recommendation
we
make.
We
are
saying
to
that
child.
E
E
E
So
there's
a
lot.
We
need
to
do
to
improve
the
first
thing.
I
hope
we
did
to
improve
is
I.
Think
I
brought
somebody
in
to
the
commissioner's
office.
That
was
not
like
any
other.
Commissioner,
in
the
history
of
dcbs
comes
with
its
own
challenges,
but
changes
in
culture
are
important
and
take
time
and
dedication
support
for
social
workers
in
the
field
when
we're
seeing,
like
many
other
places,
Health
Care
education,
this
continuous
drop
in
the
number
of
folks
who
are
willing
to
serve
in
these
very,
very
difficult
jobs.
E
These
are
folks
you
had
someone
address
domestic
violence.
These
are
folks
that
are
going
into
homes
where
domestic
violence
is
often
alleged
is
a
part
of
what
is
going
on
and
going
in
as
a
social
worker
oftentimes
by
themselves
and
again
rarely
rarely
are
negative
outcomes
because
they
have
pretty
significant
training,
but
tremendous
challenges
that
these
social
workers
face.
E
E
A
seven-year-old
or
any
child
should
never
die
in
the
custody
of
the
cabinet.
Never
it
is
a
tragedy
and
we've
seen
too
many.
We
we've
seen
we've
seen
a
couple
in
facilities,
so
we've
made
some
changes:
I'll
I'll.
Let
the
folks
who
are
here
with
me
speak
more
specifically,
but
one
change
that
we
made
is
the
the
same
region
where
referrals
are
made
into
facilities.
E
We
need
more
objective
eyes.
As
we
look
back
right,
we
need
to
have
more
objective
eyes,
so
we're
making
some
changes
there.
What.
C
E
This
change
would
be
how
we
look
at
the
facility
to
investigate
any
allegations
there.
Okay,
the
change
on
and
again
I
will
let
them
get
get
to
this,
but
but
the
change
we
want
to
make.
We
were
one
of
the
first
States
previous
administration
that
started
the
family
first
prevention
piece
around:
how
we
do
this
work
with
with
children
right
we're
one
of
the
first
states
to
do
that.
E
But
what
that
meant
is
that
we
had
to
take
time
and
it
is
taking
time
to
elevate
the
sen,
the
prevention,
so
children
and
families-
and
this
is
what
we
see
come
to
our
attention
or
sometimes
early
when
a
real
difference
could
be
made
if
we
were
able
to
provide
Prevention,
Services
and
wrap
around
services
to
families,
we're
starting
a
pilot
with
some
Family
Resource,
Centers
and
I.
Think
a
Community
Action
Agency,
where,
when
we
get
those
early
referrals,
will
refer
out
for
services,
we're
going
to
see
how
that
works.
E
If
folks
go
across
state
lines,
State
rules
are
different.
How
we
Define
abuse
and
neglect
is
different.
I
would
just
passed
a
Senate
Bill,
eight
sponsored
by
Senator
Julie
Rocky
Adams
to
to
look
at
our
definition
of
what
abuse
and
neglect
is
because
it
shouldn't
just
be
related
to
Poverty,
but
every
state
design
defines
it
differently
so
coming
together
on
joint
investigations
is
one
of
the
more
difficult
things
that
we
can
do
and
we
we
have
not
been
able
to
get
there.
E
We've
got
a
couple
of
border
states
that
are
that
are
county-based,
we're
working
with
Hamilton
County
in
Ohio
to
try
to
come
up
with
some
ways
to
figure
out
how
we,
how
we
can
do
things
across
across
systems
changes
that
we've
made
we've
increased
social
worker
salary
talk
about
secondary
trauma.
The
reason
I
came
back
to
the
Cabinet
for
Health
and
Family
Services,
one
of
the
reasons
I
love.
E
My
work
in
Louisville
was
that
we
had
not
addressed
that
in
our
workers,
so
that
the
trauma
that
you
see
that
I
described
walking
into
dangerous
homes
right
and
coming
back
out,
so
they
don't
get
jaded
I.
C
C
C
What
level
of
Investigation
was
done
here
because,
according
to
the
news
stories
that
we've
seen,
this
is
not
an
isolated
case
and
as
we're
going
to
get
to
the
other
cabinet
next,
there
are
other
issues
in
other
agencies
within
Kentucky.
State
government
I
want
to
know
about
what
investigations
were
done
here
and
whether
or
not
anyone
raised
this
issue,
whether
or
not
someone
knew
someone
if
there
was
a
training
deficit.
If
there
was
a
Workforce
issue,
I,
don't
know
what
led
to
this.
C
Maybe
the
the
individuals
that
did
this
I
don't
know.
I
can't
explain
or
Justify
the
behavior
that
led
to
this,
but
I'd
like
to
know
what's
happening
there,
because
this
wasn't
at
the
hands
of
social
workers
who
you're
right
who
we
need
to
pay
more.
They
need
to
have
gold-plated
benefits
and
they
have
to
deal
with
trauma
themselves
and
are
themselves
traumatized
by
being
faced
with
it
all
day
as
the
brother-in-law
to
two
of
them.
Three
of
them.
Excuse
me
not
all
in
Kentucky,
I
know
what
they
have
to
deal
with.
C
E
Here's
here's
where
we
can
go
in
the
midst
of
Investigations.
There
are
two
arms
of
Investigations
there's
the
dcbs
arm,
looking
into
abuse
and
neglect,
there's
the
inspector
General's
arm
looking
into
the
licensure
of
the
facility
and
the
facility's
actions
or
lack
thereof
in
this
case.
Those
are
the
investigations
that
we
do.
The
investigations
of
the
inspector
General's
office
will
look
at
whether
this
facility
continues
to
be
licensed
and
has
complied
with
the
law
on
training,
as
you
say,
on
Staffing,
on
staff
supervision.
I
E
What
we
found
I'm
sorry
I'm,
just
trying
to
get
where
I
can
that's
not.
E
E
Having
seen
the
investigations
and
I
do
have
to
wait
for
them
to
be
complete,
I
would
say
that
would
not
be
an
unfounded
fear.
J
C
But
now
there
might
be
an
it's,
not
unfair
at
some
obscure,
tap
dance
of
a
yes
might
be
a
pattern
that
that's
I'm,
not
gonna
lie
Mr
secretary
and
I.
We
you
and
I
get
along
really
well.
That
was
a
that's
a
frustrating
response
to
here
and
I
I
feel
like
there's
more
information
there
and
and
I
think
we
need
to
know
it.
C
E
E
F
After
this
incident,
we
stopped
placing
children
there
as
we
began
the
investigation.
The
investigation
includes
interviews,
many
of
which
were
difficult
to
do
as
there
has
been
a
lot
of
lawyers
involved,
and
this
is
an
open
legal
case
as
well
as
our
investigation.
So
we
interview
other
staff
members.
We
looked
at
other
complaints,
whether
they
were
made
or
not
realized
that
this
facility
has
been
licensed
and
providing
services
for
many
years.
F
So
we
do
not
place
any
children
in
any
unlicensed
facility
or
has
that
any
kind
of
risk
that
has
been
lifted
to
the
Inspector
General,
nor
to
dcvs.
Once
this
incident
happened,
we
began
our
investigation,
which
means
tons
of
interviews
not
only
with
folks
to
work
there
at
that
particular
Cottage
with
those
particular
staff
that
were
part
of
the
whole,
but
everyone
else
so
that
we
can
get
the
cultural
pieces
as
well
as
the
understanding
of
how
they
are
her.
Children
are
treated
there.
F
That's
part
of
our
investigation,
the
Inspector
General
does
exactly
the
same
thing
and
both
are
in
alignment
as
well.
As
you
know,
police
officers,
legal
investigation,
those
investigations
are
currently
active
almost
at
the
end,
and
that's
what
happened
here
and
that's
what
happened
at
every
facility.
We
move
into
the
same
type
of
investigation
in
regards
to
figuring
out
what
could
be
validated
what's
happened,
and
then
we
make
recommendations.
F
We
have
stopped
placing
children,
of
course,
immediately
after
this
happened,
and
we
are
in
the
process
of
removing
I
believe
about
10
children
that
were
in
another
Cottage
available
there.
So,
while
the
investigation
is
going
on,
the
children
get
removed
and
no
children
get
placed
and
that's
our
standard
from
whenever
there's
a
concern
around
our
facility,
Lisa
has
been
around
a
lot
longer
than
me,
so
you
may
want
to
add
to
see
if
there's
any
other
part
of
the
process
that.
C
C
F
Oh
about
what
is
your
sense
in
residential,
we
were
at
almost
10
000
when
I
got
here,
and
we
are
about
7
000
now,
because
our
work
on
prevention
and
I'm,
getting
children
back
into
the
community
has
really
paid
off
and
we're
about
I
would
say
about
seven
thousand
at
this
point
across
the
state
and
several
of
them
out
of
state
which
we
do
not
want.
F
Our
goal
is
to
have
limited
amount
of
time
in
residential
we've
reduced
it
by
three
thousand,
we'll
continue
to
go
down
every
year
on
that
and
we
have
enhanced
Our
Community
Partnerships
so
that
we
can
have
prevention.
As
you
know,
you
all
approve
the
prevention
and
Community
well-being
unit.
What
that
work
is
is
about
getting
a
hold
of
families
before
they
get
to
dcvs
before
we
have
to
go
to
court
and
ask
the
judge
if
we
can
take
care
of
that
child
or
not
okay,
so
about
seven
thousand
right
now
is
that
accurate.
F
F
G
E
G
E
We
started
out
with
18
we're
down
to
seven
children
who
are
in
dcbs
custody,
who
are
in
one
of
those
three
facilities.
There
is
also
a
licensed
residential
facility
there
and
we
are
at
I,
can't
remember
the
number
at
least
some.
C
Separately
licensed
facilities
I
just
want
to
make
that
clear.
Right
do
have
a
couple
of
questions.
Representative
nemes.
K
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman,
a
lot
of
things
swirling
in
my
mind,
right
now,
I
know
that
the
people
in
that
work
at
Seven
Counties
in
Brooklyn,
have
given
their
lives
to
protecting
kids
and
that's
something
to
be
commended.
We
know
that
is
part
of
the
context
here,
and
so
these
are
largely
people.
Who've
done
the
Lord's
work
literally
the
Lord's
work
on
behalf
of
the
Commonwealth
of
Kentucky
and
care
about
these
kids.
We've
got
this.
This
situation
is
not
isolated.
They're
I
mean
you
do
a
search
on
Google.
K
You
can
see
a
lot
of
things
that
happen
in
foster
care
and
in
other
situations,
but
I
want
to
talk
just
get
some
background
or
just
so
I'll
know
on
who's
doing
the
investigations.
I
know
you
can't
answer
a
lot
of
our
questions
completely
understand
that
and
respect
that,
but
you
did
use
the
word
murder
and
so
we've
got
I
think
two
investigations
that
you've
mentioned
today.
Those
are
both
under
you.
Yes,
okay.
That
seems
like
a
problem
for
me.
If
we're
using
the
word
murder,
why
is
KSP
not
involved?
K
Why
is
the
attorney
general
not
making
an
investigation
and
I'm?
Not
saying
that
that's
necessary,
but
you
use
the
word.
Murder
I
hadn't
heard
that
before
I
thought
it
was
about
neglect.
But
if
it's
something
more
than
that,
when
we're
bringing
the
concepts
of
homicide
in
that
does
not
need
to
be
under
the
secretary
of
the
cabinet,
it
needs
to
be.
K
Front
of
you
well
even
alleged
murder,
is
a
homicide
question
so
have
we
talked
to
the
attorney
general
or
somebody
outside
of
the
cabinet
during
the
investigation,
because
I'm
not
taking
any
I'm,
not
casting
any
aspersions
at
you,
but
I'm
saying
we
know.
Organizations
that,
inter
investigate
themselves,
might
not
be
the
the
most
desirable
way.
E
I
K
F
K
K
C
H
L
Schroeder,
thank
you.
Mr,
chair
I
wanted
to
ask
about
not
so
much
the
facility
incident,
but
just
more
the
investigation
policies
in
general-
and
this
was
brought
to
my
attention-
I
talked
to
Senator
Westerfield
after
I,
saw
a
story
by
The,
Courier,
Courier
and
Press.
L
That
mentioned
two
parents
who
were
reported
multiple
times
and
they
now
Stand
Accused
of
neglecting
a
child
resulting
in
death,
stowing,
the
body
of
the
child
in
Owensboro
in
a
storage
unit
for
several
months,
I'm,
not
sure
if
you're
familiar.
Are
you
familiar
with
this
story
and
just
to
give
the
members
of
this
committee
some
some
backgrounds
with
the
interview
of
two
additional
children
victim
to
said
that
the
suspects
put
victims,
one
body
in
a
plastic
storage
container
brought
it
with
them
to
Owensboro?
L
L
Detectives
said
the
parents,
the
two
surviving
children,
told
different
stories.
Victim
two
said
she
spoke
up
and
woke
up
in
the
basement
and
at
one
point
victim
two
said
she
tried
to
go
upstairs
to
sneak
food
to
victim
one,
but
she
tried
to
give
it
to
her
victim.
One
fell
over
and
stopped
breathing
victim.
Two
also
reportedly
told
police
that
the
alleged
defendant
began
to
laugh
at
the
site
of
the
unresponsive.
Child
victims,
who
claimed
Porter
then
said
we
killed.
One
of
them
and
I
want
to
go
down
to
the
park,
says.
L
According
to
Evansville
police
department
detectives,
the
Kentucky
Department
of
Child
Services
had
numerous
assessments
on
file
tracking
back
at
least
to
February
2021
a
year
before
the
child
died.
A
person
called
and
said
that
Porter.
This
is
the
a
legend
defendant,
makes
her
sleep
on
the
floor.
In
feces,
another
caller
said
that
victim
one
was
often
locked
in
the
room
called
The
Devil's
Child.
L
Let's
see
here
said.
According
to
the
Evansville
police
department,
detectives
contact
was
only
made
with
the
defendants
and
children
over
the
phone.
Following
the
report
never
substantiated
any
claims.
I
was
just
wondering
what
and
I
know
you
all
have
a
difficult
job
and
I
know
your
investigators
have
a
difficult
job,
so
I'm
not
sitting
here.
G
L
E
Sure,
and
it's
where
I
began,
these
are
all
difficult
cases.
The
most
difficult
cases
are
the
ones
that
are
multi-state,
so
the
Evansville
Indiana
folks
said
that
we
were
dcbs
was
doing
investigations
relative
to
these
folks.
So
there's
there's
their
release
of
information
right,
so
indeed
oftentimes
in
cases
where
child
death
occurs
there
are
we
often
find
that
dcbs
has
had
some
initial
investigations.
We
I
I
can't
back
up
from
that.
E
Can
is
one
of
the
greatest
investigatory
challenges
I
think
we
face
when
we
review
cases-
and
this
was
several
years
ago
now
when
the
child
fatality
is
involved.
We
we
now
have
a
group
that
that
looks
with
us
at
what
these,
why?
Why
was
some?
Why
was
something
potentially
missed?
Where
was
it
missed
in
the
system?
And
how
can
we
improve
our
systems
to
hopefully
not
miss
it?
In
the
future,
but
all
too
often
we've
been
involved.
I
child
fatality
review
panel
often
sees
that
dcbs
has
been
in
a
home
multiple
times.
C
F
J
E
L
Be
a
little
more
specific
I
guess
what
I'm
wondering
at
what
level,
when
you
hear
something
like
a
child's
being
locked
in
a
closet
at
what
level
does
that
then
go
from
hey?
This
should
be
a
phone
call
today,
hey
this
needs
to
be
a
a
visit
in
person.
G
We
always
make
the
pandemic
created
some
challenges
with
initiation,
but
our
our
policy
is
the
face-to-face
contact
with
the
child
victim
and
family.
So
I
mean
that
we
don't
normally
you
normally
will
not.
We
will
not
be
making
a
phone
call
to
initiate
an
investigation.
We
would
be
making
an
announced
home
visit
to
the
family
and
interviewing
the
child
privately
and
separately.
We
oftentimes
initiate
for
school
age.
G
F
Yeah
and
and
just
with
your
permission,
I
just
want
to
say
we
sit,
I
sit
on
the
fatality
and
near
fatality
every
case,
every
Corner's
report,
every
forensic
exam
is
reviewed.
We
looked
at
Miss
opportunities
and
we
go
back
to
the
to
those
workers.
We
go
back
to
that
system.
We
look
at
systemic
issues,
for
example,
not
enough
staff.
A
supervisor
was
not
there
Etc.
F
That
is
a
collaborative
process
with
the
fatality
and
near
fatality
review
in
every
case
of
near
fatality
or
fatality
gets
reviewed
by
that
committee,
you
get
I
am
part
of
that.
We
get
to
answer.
We
get
to
get
feedback,
we
get
to
collaborate
on
what
needs
to
happen.
Next,
the
most
difficult
part
of
my
job
is
reading.
F
Those
reports
is
sickening
to
see
what
happens
to
our
kids
a
lot
of
the
time
we're
also
looking
these
workers
are
working
in
real
time
and
when
we
look
back,
we
we
see
missed
opportunities
that
could
have
been
there.
We
take
care
of
a
lot
of
children
that
don't
end
up
dead.
However,
the
ones
that
die
one
is
too
many
and
it
is
undefensible.
F
However,
this
is
an
incredible
difficult
job
to
do
by
our
workers,
and
we
have
systems
in
place
internally
and
externally,
with
the
panel
to
address
that
when
we
have
Partners
such
as
residential
facilities,
who
are
also
responsible
for
care
of
their
kids.
We
have
certifications
and
licenses
that
they
need
to
have
in
order
to
do
that
and
look
at
what
happened
to
Jason.
So
it
is,
it
is
the
challenge
of
our
dcbs.
F
We
have
many
challenges,
but
this
one
is
the
most
painful
and
the
hardest
one
to
have
children
in
our
custody
and
us
not
being
able
to
protect
them.
We're.
C
M
I'm,
not
okay,
thank
you,
but
my
question
is:
do
you
have
specific
ones?
So
if
you
get
something
that
that
goes
out
in
a
format
of
some
type
to
ever
office
in
the
state,
so
that
they
all
follows
on,
if
you
get
a
call
that
this
child,
like
these
acts,
occur
to
that
child
occur,
that
you
automatically
go
and
check
or
call
the
police
and
go
with
the
police
to
check.
F
F
C
Is
I'm
concerned
and
I
would
like
to
have
you
back
when
those
investigations
are
done,
we'll
be
back
in
19
days
in
this
building
on
a
regular
basis
and
I'd
love
to
have
you
back,
I
can't
convene
The
Joint
Committee
at
that
time,
but
and
I
can't
speak
for
the
new
chair
Elliott,
but
we're
gonna.
C
Do
it
one
chamber
at
a
time
I'm
happy
to
do
it
for
my
half,
but
I'd
also
like
to
know
more
about
the
fatality
and
near
fatality
review
panel
and
the
connection
between
what
their
recommendations
are
sure.
F
F
A
N
Mr
chairman,
in
addressing
the
panel,
we
passed
legislation
last
session
that
the
the
recommendations
that
are
made
by
that
panel
in
the
past
nothing
happened
with
that
there
they
were
just
sent
to
agencies.
There
were
reports,
there
was
no
accountability
for
that,
and
the
bill
that
we
passed
does
require
one
of
two
actions:
The
Entity,
that
was
responsible
for
the
action,
whether
that
led
to
the
recommendation.
They
have
to
make
changes
one
or
two.
N
If
they're
not
going
to
make
changes,
they
have
to
report
back
to
the
review
panel
as
to
why
they
did
not
make
any
changes.
That
was
step
number
one
and
we
looked
to
put
more
teeth
into
the
work
of
the
review
panel
as
we
move
forward
to
make
sure
that
that
things
are
being
done
properly.
I
know
there
are
some
current
concerns
that
I
think
if
I'm,
not
mistaken,
dcbs
chooses
which
cases
the
the
panel
hears.
N
That's
a
concern
for
me
in
in
how
that's
done,
but
I
I
think
that
there
is
a
lot
of
cooperation
in
a
lot
of
Communications
in
these
efforts
and
I
know
from
from
my
perspective,
as
being
named
the
new
chair
of
the
the
families
and
children
committee.
That's
priority
number
one
for
me.
Child
abuse
and
neglect
in
this
state
has
got
to
we've
got
to
get
our
numbers
down.
We've
got
to
do
a
better
job
of
protecting
our
children.
I've
dealt
with
this
throughout
my
entire
career
in
law
enforcement
I
dealt
with
it.
N
I
worked
side
by
side
with
dcbs
on
hundreds
of
cases
throughout
a
24-year,
career
and
I
know
the
frustrations
that
they
deal
with
and
I
know
how
difficult
those
cases
are
to
work
they're
often
impossible
to
come
to
a
satisfactory
conclusion
in
really
knowing
what
happened
in
those
events.
I
know
from
my
current
position
in
operating
an
early
childhood
education
center
we
deal
with
complaints.
We
have
children
that
come
in
that
we
suspect
had
been
abused.
N
There's
a
process
that
we
go
through
can
I
say
that
I
always
feel
comfortable
with
that
process
and
that
there's
enough
being
done,
I
can't
at
all.
There
have
been
a
couple
times
that
I
end
up
calling
something.
Then
we
we
get
a
response:
I'm
not
satisfied
with
it.
I
call
my
police
officer,
friends
and,
and
they
follow
up
so
it's
not
perfect,
but
I,
don't
I.
N
Think
often
it's
just
the
enormity
and
the
numbers
that
that
are
dealt
with
and
and
the
the
lack
of
having
appropriate
numbers
of
social
workers
and
the
training
and
the
time
to
really
look
into
all
of
these
cases
as
they
should
be.
So
as
we
you
know,
we
I
think
we
need
to
be
careful
about
trying
to
assign
blame.
N
This
is
a
massive
problem
at
many
different
levels
that
we
have
to
to
look
at,
but
I'm
glad
that
that
we
are
looking
at
that
and
it's
sad
that
it
takes
incidents
like
this
for
us
to
really
step
up
and
look
at
it
because
it's
been
it's
been
a
problem
for
for
decades.
F
N
We
do
have
a
lot
of
work
to
do,
but
I
know
in
my
committee
and
I'm
hoping
my
colleague
in
the
other
chamber
in
knowing
her
I'm
sure
that's
going
to
be
a
priority
for
her
also
but
I.
N
The
review
panel
is
a
good
step.
I
think
we
can
make
that
better.
Our
social
workers
we
need
more.
There
needs
probably
more
understanding
on
the
relationship
between
the
social
worker
and
law
enforcement,
because
that
varies
depending
on
the
jurisdiction
on
how
those
relationships
and
how
much
communication,
how
much
they
work
together
and
so
there
there
is
a
lot
to
discuss
through
this
issue
and
it's
not
something
we're
going
to
solve
quickly
and
I
hope.
It
is
something
that
we
can
work
together
on
to
make
this
better.
N
C
F
Have
the
child,
you
said:
neglect
annual
report,
child
fatalities
that
was
sent
to
you
all
in
September?
Okay,
so
you
should
have
a
copy
of
that
who
says
it's?
Actually,
the
fatalities
have
not
increased
at
any
level,
but
we,
this
is
the
graph
that
I
got
from
them.
Lisa.
G
E
G
C
G
C
O
C
O
C
Actually
have
a
handout
here.
If
you
want
to
copy
this,
what
they're
going
to
show
we
got
it
a
little
last
minute,
so
we
didn't
have
that
prepared
and
ready
to
go.
C
This
is
a
serious
situation,
just
as
serious
as
the
last
one
this
one's
particularly
concerning,
since
this
isn't
the
first
time
we've
had
this
agency
in
front
of
this
committee.
Talking
about
issues
like
this
we've
had
a
ride
at
Adair
County,
where
staff
was
hurt,
other
youth
were
hurt.
One
youth
was
reportedly
sexually
assaulted
by
other
youth.
C
We
have
news
coverage
and
reporting
of
grave
failings
at
DJJ
within
the
Justice
cabinet
and
the
problems
that
you
all
came
and
reported
to
this
interim
committee
a
little
over
a
year
ago,
roughly
your
seemed
to
persist,
evidently
persist,
and
so
here
we
are
I
believe
and
representative
nemus.
You
correct
me
if
I'm
wrong,
but
a
month
or
so
ago
it
was
unconstitutional
for
you
to
move
boys
and
girls
into
separate
facilities.
C
But
now
it's
not
a
year
ago,
you
were
telling
us
what
those
of
us
that
work
in
Juvenile
Justice
know
a
lot
already
that
you
didn't
have
adequate.
Staffing
ratios,
but
we're
going
to
open
a
whole
new
facility
and
I,
don't
know
who
we're
going
to
staff
that
with
and
still
maintain
any
sort
of
decent,
adequate
Staffing
ratio.
C
C
I
hope
that
salary
increases
and
additional
staff
feature
prominently
in
your
remarks,
but
I'm
interested
to
hear
what
else
you've
got.
So,
please
you
have
the
floor,
commissioner.
O
Alrighty,
thank
you
for
inviting
us
here
today
to
provide
context
as
to
why
the
the
other
reason
we
were
talking
here,
the
Jefferson
Regional
Juvenile,
Detention
Center
in
Linden,
is
temporarily
offline
and
I'll
address
some
of
these
others
too.
As
you're
aware
I
am
commissioner
Reed
and
secretary
Harvey
is
here
with
me
today.
I
did
have
a
slide
which
I
realized
didn't
get
distributed,
but
I
just
wanted
to
kind
of
mention
that,
because
it
does
sort
of
put
in
context
some
of
the
issues
that
we're
having
today
as
our
male
detention
population.
O
As
of
yesterday,
48
percent
of
the
kids
that
were
there
are
for
capital,
murder,
offenses,
felony,
a
felony
B
and
felony
C.
We
have
27
for
felony
D
and
another
25
for
misdemeanors
and
status
offenses.
These
are
a
male
population.
By
far
those
are
our
greatest
numbers.
Girls
are
much
less.
We
usually
don't
get
more
than
20
spread
across
the
state
and,
generally
speaking,
they
tend
to
be
in
on
not
always,
but
generally
speaking,
on
lower
level
offenses.
O
Unfortunately,
these
numbers
have
factored
significantly
into
what
the
situations
we've
been
facing
and
the
division
decisions
that
we've
had
to
make
with.
That
said,
the
work
the
Department
of
Juvenile
Justice
does
is
largely
unseen.
We
work
behind
closed
and
locked
doors
with
a
population
that
many
people
have
a
hard
time.
Understanding
the
work
that
we
can
do
is
hard.
It
can
be
very
dangerous
and
it
can
also
be
very
rewarding
when
you
make
a
difference
in
the
life
of
a
child.
No
you've
turned
them
around
there's
just
generally,
no
better
feeling.
O
O
Our
team
is
comprised
of
dedicated,
passionate
and
compassionate
individuals
who
choose
to
do
this
important
work
and
what
has
proven
to
be
increasingly
difficult
and
dangerous
situations
and
I
do
want
them
to
know
and
I
want
you
to
know
too
that
they
are
valued
for
their
contributions
to
the
Commonwealth
and
are
at-risk
youth
I.
Now
want
to
take
a
few
minutes
to
contextualize
our
operations
as
it
can
be
kind
of
confusing,
because
we
do
use
a
lot
of
different
terminology
than
you
do
for
adult
corrections
within
DJJ.
We
have
different
types
of
residential
facilities.
O
Three
we
have-
and
this
is
a
little
bit
different,
because
a
lot
of
states
don't
do
detention,
they
just
do
the
post
post
disposition,
but
we
have
juvenile
detention
centers
and
these
house
mainly
kids
after
an
arrest
before
they've
been
convicted
or
sentenced
or
in
the
term
which
I'm
sure
some
of
you
know
and
others
don't
adjudicate.
It
is
the
juvenile
term
that
we
use
our
Youth
Development,
Centers
and
group
homes
serve
the
post
adjudication
population
after
a
good
youth
is
either
pled
guilty
or
been
found
guilty
and
either
committed
or
sentenced
into
our
care.
O
So
we
have
two
different
types
of
residential
facilities:
post
adjudication.
These
are
Youth
Development
Centers.
These
are
residential
treatment,
centers
for
youth
who
have
committed
or
sentenced
to
DJJ
as
a
final
disposition
of
their
case.
We
have
an
in-depth
classification
process
and
youth
are
housed
based
on
their
risk
score
and
other
factors.
We
operate.
Six
Youth
Development,
Centers
and
they're
spread
throughout
the
state.
The
terms
Youth,
Development,
Center
and
juvenile
detention
are
often
used
interchangeably,
but
they
are
not
the
same
thing.
O
They
have
very
different
purposes
and
sometimes
folks
have
a
hard
time
separating
those
two
out.
The
other
facilities
we
operate
are
group
homes,
and
these
are
smaller
residential
facilities,
usually
no
more
than
eight
or
ten
that
are
often
for
our
younger
our
lower
level
offenders
they're
a
step
down
from
one
of
our
other
residential,
like
a
Youth,
Development,
Center
and
sometimes
for
other
specific
needs.
O
We
use
those
Our
Youth,
Development
Centers
and
our
group
homes,
our
treatment
facilities
and
careful
consideration
is
made
in
determining
which
place
and
what
type
of
facility
is
most
appropriate
for
the
Youth.
Once
the
court
process
is
done,
we
have
the
ability,
then
to
separate
and
customize
placement
to
fit
that
use
unique
needs
and
each
youth
receives
a
comprehensive
treatment
plan.
We
also
operate
day
treatment
centers,
where
youth
receive
education
and
counseling
services,
while
they
remain
in
their
own
homes.
O
These
are
treatment,
programs
for
post,
adjudication
and
pre-adjudication
youth,
as
well
as
some
youth
who
are
not
in
djj's
custody.
They
get
referred
by
the
court
and
sometimes
by
their
local
school
system.
We
operate
six
and
we
have
other
day
treatment
centers
that
we
contract
with
throughout
the
state.
So
to
reiterate,
our
juvenile
detention
centers
are
for
our
pre-adjudication
youth
for
youth
after
arrest
processing
through
the
court
youth
are
in
juvenile
court.
O
We
actually
have
kids
in
our
detention
centers,
who
will
state
years?
We've
had
I
think
one
youth
up
to
three
years
in
a
juvenile
detention
center.
These
kids
in
our
care
are
our
responsibility,
but
their
ultimate
disposition
is
unclear
until
the
final
disposition
of
their
case.
So
this
impacts
the
type
of
services
we
are
able
to
offer.
It's
difficult
to
meaningly
meaningfully,
engage
in
a
full
range
of
programs
for
this
population
as
their
time
at
the
Detention.
Center
is
unpredictable.
O
I
have
a
lot
of
kids
coming
and
going
all
the
time
an
increasing
number
of
the
detained
population
have
gang
affiliations
and
continue
their
violent
Behavior
inside
the
Detention
Facility
targeting
staff
and
targeting
other
Youth
detention.
Staff
have
to
be
able
to
handle
a
wide
variety
of
Youth
and
situations,
youth
who
are
actively
suicidal
pregnant
Autistic
or
have
medical
issues
including
diabetes,
cancer,
epilepsy
or
heart
conditions.
Juvenile
Justice
youth
are
known
to
have
some
of
the
worst
physical
health
of
any
kids
in
the
nation.
O
I
want
to
make
sure
I
give
you
an
accurate
and
fair
picture
of
what
a
juvenile
detention
center
is
like.
So
you
understand,
the
circumstances
are
you
and
the
staff
are
under
and
the
needs
that
must
be
met
to
effectively
offer
security
and
services
to
the
best
of
our
abilities.
So
that
leaves
me
the
topic
that
I
believe
I
was
asked
to
present
on
today,
which
is
about
the
Jefferson
Regional
Detention
Center,
located
in
Linden,
and
it
opened
in
January
2020
after
the
budget
cuts
forced
the
city
of
Louisville
to
close
its
local
detention
facility.
O
In
October,
we
announced
that
the
facility
would
operate
as
a
holdover
facility.
This
was
a
way
to
reduce
the
population
and
disrupt
violence
and
behavioral
issues.
We
were
planning
to
house
approximately
12
to
14
juveniles
until
their
initial
detention
hearing
for
any
who
had
been
ordered
to
be
detained
longer.
If
they
came
back
after
their
detention
hearing,
then
we
would
transport
them
to
another
one
of
our
state
facilities.
O
However,
a
couple
of
weeks
later
in
November
a
test
fire
alarm
raised
questions
about
the
system's
functionality.
When
djj's
facility
management
raised
their
serious
concern
for
the
fire
safety
of
that
building,
we
immediately
decided
to
move
the
youth
from
Jefferson
until
that
circumstance
was
clarified.
This
was
a
decision
made
at
the
departmental
and
cabinet
level
based
on
the
advice
of
our
facility
staff.
Neither
the
fire
marshal
nor
any
other
outside
office
was
involved.
O
The
governor
recently
announced
that
the
detained
youth
will
be
housed
based
on
offense
level,
so
that
we
can
treat
differing
populations
in
a
manner
consistent
with
the
different
security
considerations
that
they
present.
This
new
approach
recognizes
that
the
detained
youth
population
we
serve
today
differs
from
those
served
over
20
years
ago,
when
the
juvenile
justice
system
was
designed.
I
support.
O
These
changes
and
DJJ
will
implement
the
new
system
beginning
next
year
after
improvements
are
completed
at
our
Jefferson
facility,
an
option
could
be
housing
low-level
male
offenders
at
that
facility,
but
again
those
decisions
are
still
being
made,
so
I'll
now
turn
it
over
to
secretary
Harvey
and
I'll
be
happy
to
answer
any
questions
once
he's
finished.
Thank.
P
P
Sir
there
you
go
is
that
better,
we've
had
a
lot
of
news
lately
and
a
lot
of
important
announcements
regarding
Juvenile,
Justice
and
I'd
like
to
speak
about
those,
and
you
are
correct
that
there
are
problems,
and
some
of
these
problems
are
relatively
new.
Some
of
these
problems
go
back
years
or
even
decades,
so,
as
in
my
judgment,
it's
impossible
to
understand
the
current
issues
without
understanding
a
little
bit
about
how
we
got
here
and
about
the
history.
P
The
centerpiece
of
the
system
that
was
designed
20
years
ago
was
the
establishment
of
relatively
small
regionalized
detention
facilities.
The
detention
system
that
was
designed
back
then
seemed
to
have
a
clear
priority
and
that
was
to
detain
use
as
close
to
home
as
possible.
Now
there
were
benefits
in
marriage
to
that
priority.
There
were
added
conveniences
for
local
law
enforcement,
for
defense
attorneys
and
for
the
families
of
the
use,
so
detaining
use
close
to
home
certainly
had
considerable
advantages.
P
This
approach,
however,
has
any
approach
carries
with
it
trade-offs,
and
there
were
disadvantages
to
the
system
that
was
designed
20
years
ago.
Keeping
use
closer
to
home
meant
that
boys
and
girls
would
be
housed
together,
and
that
was
a
decision
that
was
made
20
years
ago,
and
that
was
a
decision
that
stood
until
a
few
weeks
ago.
It
keeping
use
closer
to
home
also
meant
that
boys
and
girls
were
not
only
detained
Under,
One
Roof,
but
serious
offenders
would
be
detained,
Under
One
Roof,
with
less
serious
offenders.
P
P
In
fact,
in
today,
we
often
will
have
between
10
and
20
use
as
hard
as
it
is
for
me
to
imagine
in
juvenile
detention
across
the
state
that
are
charged
with
murder
and
many
more
who
are
charged
with
first
degree,
robbery
with
other
serious
gun
crimes.
In
fact,
I
think
about
46
percent
of
our
currently
detained
population
is
charged
with
a
class
C
felony
or
above,
and
it's
really
worse
than
that.
This
violent
activity
today
is
much
more
likely
to
be
organized
violence,
often
in
the
form
of
gang-related
violence,
as
opposed
to
episodic.
What.
P
I
think
the
information
comes
from
the
detention
facilities
themselves.
The
youths
tell
our
workers
they're
very
free
with
this,
that
they're
involved
in
gangs
and
that
they
actually
are
elevated
in
The
Gangs
when
they
commit
an
assault
on
our
staff
or
on
other
use,
so
the
source
for
that's
pretty
direct.
P
Can
you
respond
to
that
yeah?
Certainly,
I
can
respond
to
that
I
know.
There's
there's
been
some
discussion
about
ceilings
and
I'll
confess
that
my
knowledge
of
the
seedlings
in
the
facilities
is
is
probably
limited
and
and
you're
right,
Mr,
chairman
I,
don't
know
everything
that
the
commissioner
of
the
Department
of
Juvenile
Justice,
know
I
know
about.
P
I
can
tell
you
about
the
ceiling
incident
I
found
out
that
we
had
what
I
was
told
were
drop
ceilings
in
some
of
these
facilities
when
we
had
an
incident
in
Warren
County
in
June
now,
I've
been
told
since
then
that
actually,
these
are
not
exactly
drop
ceilings
that
they
actually
are
a
little
more
substantial
than
that.
But
when
we
had
this
incident
in
Warren
County,
we
immediately
directed
that
we
do
everything
we
could
to
expedite
the
procurement
process
to
to
mitigate
that
particular
issue.
Now
I've
learned
since
then
and
I
did
not
know
this.
E
P
Ordinary
maintenance
funding
and
the
capital
funding
that
it
was
scheduled
to
deal
with
these
ceilings
but
and
and
I
will
confess
that
I
don't
know
every
item
on
the
maintenance
schedule
for
these
buildings.
When
I
learned
about
it
was
when
there
there
was
an
incident
that
was
related
to
it.
So
I
hope
that
is
a
fuller
explanation
of
that
incident.
It.
C
Is
a
bit,
but
it
still
makes
me
concerned
about
what
information
is
reaching
your
desk
and
what
information
isn't
or
what
information
is
reaching
the
commissioner's
desk.
The
allegation
that,
based
on
your
staff,
the
departmental
staff
in
monthly
reports
that
I
didn't
know
existed
until
I've,
seen
it
in
in
the
news
coverage
but
say,
commissioner,
the
opposite
of
what
you
testified
to
a
year
ago
in
front
of
this
committee
regarding
whether
or
not
you
detain
juveniles
for
lack
of
staff.
C
P
P
B
P
I'm
responsible
for
the
quality
of
the
meal
that
will
be
served
for
lunch
in
a
correctional
facility
today
and
I.
Understand
that
but
you're
right,
I,
don't
know
everything
about
the
department
that
the
commissioner
knows
I
doubt
that
she
knows
everything
about
an
individual
facility
that
a
superintendent
would
know.
Information
like
in
any
organization
flows
up
the
chain
and
sometimes
that's
not
perfect,
and
that
that
is
certainly
an
issue
that
we
constantly
work
on.
But,
commissioner,
could
I'll
ask
you
to
address
the
question
on
the
table.
O
Right,
let
me
address
a
monthly
reports.
Those
are
an
ACA
requirement
when
those
are
done.
It's
sort
of
a
recap,
there's
generally
very
little,
that's
in
the
monthly
reports
that
I
haven't
already
been
involved
with
I
meet
on
a
regular
basis
with
all
our
superintendents
and
I
meet
with
them
individually
by
their
their
grouping.
I
meet
with
the
detention
superintendents
I
mean
with
the
YDC
circumstance
I
meet
with
a
group
home
I
meet
with
the
day
treatments
I'm
aware
of
all
of
their
issues
or
not
all
of
them,
but
most
of
them.
O
You
know
we
have
been
aware
that
Staffing
was
an
issue
for
some
time.
Obviously,
that's
been
an
honor
for
I've
made
no
secret
about
that.
I
have
gone
all
around
the
state,
I
have
talked
to
judges,
I
have
talked
to
others
and
have
said
you
know
our
number
one
issue:
that's
holding
us
back
from
being
safe,
secure
programming.
Everything
is
having
adequate
numbers
of
Staff.
This
is
a
relationship
business
and
it's
not
just
adequate
numbers.
O
It's
the
ability
to
be
able
to
retain
them
because
just
having
them
there,
if
they're
turning
over
all
the
time
it
takes
a
while
to
get
good
at
this
and
sometimes
unfortunately,
what
happens
when
you
get
really
good.
Is
you
move
on
up
the
chain
to
other
jobs
and
then
we're
left
with
you
know
lesser
known
people
down
the
floor
to
actually
do
these
things,
so
that's
something
you
know.
I
have
talked
about,
I
I!
O
Any
project
that
exceeds
an
agency
authority
of
ten
thousand
dollars
for
a
single
quote
or
20
000
for
multiple
courts
requires
an
engineer
or
an
architect
of
record
and
muster
go
through
the
finance
and
administration
cabinets,
division
of
engineering
and
contract
Administration,
the
casino
repairs
we
did
earlier
at
a
deer
cost,
200,
000
I
think
we're
under
400.
000
and
I
can't
just
write
a
check
and
make
those
things
happen.
O
They
have
to
go
up
through
the
processes
and
I
know
it's
frustrating
when
our
staff,
when
they
have
to
deal
with
these
things
and
I,
understand
their
frustration
too
I'm
frustrated.
We
don't
have
enough
staff
I
do
want
to
say
that
we
are
making
progress,
I,
think
and
I'm
very
encouraged
by
what
we're
doing,
but
I
have
made
no
secret
of
that
and.
C
I,
don't
deny
that
I
I,
don't
I'm
going
on
your
word.
My
objection
wasn't
your
allegation,
though
I
was
curious
about
the
basis
for
it.
My
concern
is
that
some
things
are
getting
through
to
the
people
that
make
decisions
and
some
things
don't
seem
to
be
getting
through,
or
some
things
are
coming
through
on
a
report
but
are
neglected
or
ignored
or
overlooked.
C
The
concerns
are
how
the
youths
are
treated
and
again.
You
all
were
here
a
year
ago,
and
you
were
talking
about
not
having
adequate
staff
and
pay
not
being
sufficient.
C
M
C
C
Are
you
are
you
telling
me
that
there
are
a
list
of
them
we're
waiting
at
Finance
for
to
go
through
that,
because
if,
if
all
of
them
aren't
that
you
need
are
in
excess
of
that
10
000
threshold,
I
assume,
if
we
called
Finance
cabinet
in
here,
they
could
say
yeah,
we've
got
here's
the
laundry
list
they're
asking
for
and
we're
working
on
it,
and
if
they
are
that,
if
that's
where
they
are
that's
great
but
I,
don't
think
that's
the
case,
so
I.
Let.
P
P
I,
don't
disagree
with
you,
Senator
and,
and
I
would
say
this
if,
if
anyone
has
criticisms
of
the
recruitment
efforts
that
we've
made
I'm
I'm,
certainly
open
to
hearing
those,
but
I
will
tell
you
that
I
have
spent
not
just
me,
but
the
senior
staff
that
came
with
me.
We've
spent
more
time
trying
to
find
money
and
resources
to
hire
and
retain
staff
for
these
facilities,
not
just
juvenile
facilities
but
Adult
Correctional
Facilities
than
anything
else.
We've
done
since
I've
been
on
this
job.
P
I
think
my
second
week
on
the
job
I
went
down
to
Eddyville,
it's
close
to
home
for
me
and
went
through
that
facility.
I
was
shocked.
I
was
scared.
I
was
saddened
at
what
our
staff
was
doing
with
so
little
resources
and
I
told
the
folks
that
went
with
me
on
the
way
home.
This
is
the
biggest
challenge
we
have
in
terms
of
of
the
Juvenile
Justice
youth
workers.
They've
had
three
significant
increases
in
pay
in
the
last
year.
The
the
governor.
P
P
So
we've
done
that
inside
of
12
months
and
we've
done
that
the
governor
helped
us
provide
a
10
bump,
I
think
last
December,
the
general
assembly
and
its
budget
provided
another
eight
percent,
which
we
appreciate
just
recently
I
think
in
probably
October
we
were
able
to
Cobble
together
some
some
things
by
cannibalizing
some
vacancies
to
to
find
some
money
and
we
were
able
to
increase
some
of
the
raise
some
of
the
wages
to
the
midpoint.
We
provided
some
additional
locality
pay
where
we
had
particular
trouble.
P
So
I
would
say
all
of
these
actions
were
necessary,
but
I
would
not
say
that
those
actions
are
sufficient,
but
we're
Limited
in
what
we
can
do
and
and
I
would
say
this
I
I
spend
time
with
our
wardens.
I
go
to
warden's
meetings.
I
spend
time
with
our
Department
of
Juvenile,
Justice
people
and
I.
Think
it's
fair
to
say
their
biggest
concern
is
recruiting
and
retaining
an
adequate
staff.
They
tell
me
that
the
biggest
impediment
they
have
and
they're
on
the
front
lines
I'm.
P
There
were
Obviously
good
reasons
to
do
that,
but
that
weakened
the
tie
between
these
employees
and
and
their
jobs,
and
that's
something
that's
not
in
our
control
but
I'm
happy
to
work
with
all
of
you
to
find
ways
to
to
do
be
more
successful
at
recruiting
and
retaining
a
staff,
because
I
agree
with
you
that
that
is
a
baseline
issue
that
we
have
to
get
right
or
we
it's
going
to
be
very
difficult,
going
forward.
I've.
C
L
C
To
give
you
another
eight
percent,
and
another
eight
after
that,
and
just
like
the
the
social
workers
under
secretary
friedlander
and
and
all
the
front
line
workers
with
chfs,
your
folks
need
gold-plated
everything
I
wish
I
could
give
them
all
of
it.
I
wish
I
could
increase
their
pay.
I
I've
said
this
before
your
lab
techs,
with
State
Police
need
Hazard.
C
It
I'd
be
the
first
to
vote
for
it,
but
you
don't
have
adequate
Staffing
today.
How
can
you
open
another
facility
in
Campbell,
County?
Well,.
P
One
is
I
wanted
to
know
whether
or
not
what
we
were
doing
now
was
legal
I'm
told
that
it
that
it
was
that
what
we
were
doing
with
having
boys
and
girls
together
and
I'm
told
that's
the
way
that
it's
done
in
Most
states
which
doesn't
make
it
a
good
idea.
But
but
that
seems
to
be
the
state
of
play.
I
also
ask
if
separating
the
boys
and
girls
would
have
legal
problems
and
and
I
am
concerned,
you
know
when
you
treat
genders
differently
based
on
gender
I,
think
that
can
be
a
concern.
P
P
Has
the
governor
has
ordered,
which
was
consistent
with
what
what
you
certainly
recommended
I
think
and
the
other
thing
that
I
did
is
ask
our
department
staff
I,
asked
the
commissioner
to
start
working
on
a
plan
to
separate
the
boys
and
the
girls,
because,
as
I
said,
when
you
and
I
were
having
that
discussion,
I
certainly
don't
think
housing
them
together
is
ideal
I,
don't
you
know
that
again?
That
was
a
decision
that
was
made
20
years
ago
and
it's
been
changed
now,
but
I
say
that
so
that
you'll
know
that
we
we
did.
P
P
P
So
as
time
went
on
and
we
were
able
to
make
some
of
these
enhancements,
we
were
able
to
bring
on
some
staff
not
enough
staff
to
fully
operate
the
facility
in
Campbell
County,
but
I
think
we
got
to
the
point
where
we
could.
We
could
keep
15
or
20
use
in
that
facility,
certainly
and
I
think
it's
probably
designed
for
what
40
Maybe.
P
So
when
the
governor
made
the
decision
to
separate
the
boys
and
girls
and
we
sort
of
looked
across
the
map.
Well,
Campbell
County
couldn't
keep
all
of
the
kids
from
Northern
Kentucky.
But
at
that
point
in
time
they
had
enough
staff
to
keep
around
20
kids,
which
is
a
is
adequate
generally
to
house
the
pop
the
girl
population
in
detention.
It
seemed
from
what
I've
seen
that
usually
will
range
between
12
and
20.
Roughly,
so
that's
how
that
decision
came
about.
P
There's
there's
not
a
new
facility:
that's
that's
being
opened,
but
you
know
you
and
I
are
in
complete
agreement,
I
think
about
the
need
to
find
ways
to
solve
the
Staffing
issue
and
and
as
I
said
in
October
and
I
mean
this
we're
open
to
any
constructive
creative
suggestion.
To
do
that.
I
can
tell
you
that,
in
addition
to
these
increases
that
we've
provided
we've,
we've
got
a
professional
recruiter
that
works
on
this
full-time.
We've
done
job
fairs
after
job
fair.
P
You
know,
we've
we've
done
advertising
to
try
to
bring
in
staff
and,
as
the
commissioner
said,
since
October
it's
too
early
to
say
that
it's
a
trend,
I
think,
but
we've
seen
increased
interest
in
these
jobs.
So
we
hope
that
we'll
see
some
improvement,
but
but
we're
we're
oper.
We
are
at
the
mercy
of
the
labor
market.
That
is
very
difficult
for
everyone.
At
the
moment,
we've.
Q
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman,
just
a
couple
to
lead
in.
Let's,
let's
go
back
to
Adair
County,
it
may
be
a
statement
that
you
made
earlier
about
the
folks
that
were
in
Adair
County
that
started
the
ride
and
overpowered
the
guard.
What
kind
of
classification
were
were
these
folks
I
mean?
Were
these
like
class
A,
felonies
Class
B
felonies
are
really
were
these
lesser
offenders.
Q
So
most
kids,
there
are
all
right
so
which
I
guess
leads
me
to
another
question.
You
don't
have
all
the
classifications,
so
you're
telling
me
that
there
were
some
low-level
offenders
in
with
murderers
and
rapists,
and
these
very
serious
offenders.
Q
P
And
then
the
lower
level
offenders
will
be
housed
in
in
facilities
that
are
designed
for
lower
level
offenders.
So
that's
that's
the
transition
that
we're
going
to
be
making,
which
kind.
Q
Measures
did
you
give
these
guards
that
were
overpowered
to
defend
themselves
when
this
Riot
occurs,
because
at
least
what
I'm
looking
at
in
the
paper,
it
looks
like
you
know,
a
little
jar
of
mace
or
something
I'm
thinking
like
you
know
here
you
have
somebody
with
pepper
spray.
Guarding
people
charged
with
capital,
murder
and
rapists
I
mean
I'm,
surprised,
somebody's
not
been
killed.
Yet,
if
that's,
in
fact,
the
truth
is
that
the
truth
Senator.
P
Q
P
Q
P
O
O
Again
is
realize
that
Juvenile
Detention
is
like
an
adult
jail.
You
take.
Whoever
comes
to
your
door
that
is
brought
just
like
you
might
have
somebody
in
adult
jail
or
wrote
a
bad
check
in
in
the
same
area,
where
somebody
I
mean
all
of
them
come.
We
had
no
control
over
our
front
door,
you
we
served
counties
and
when
the
kids
are
detained,
they're
brought
to
our
door.
Q
Q
You
know,
but
obviously
I'm
thinking
about
it
now
in
the
position
that
I'm
in
what
was
the
wrong
with
the
old
system,
one
you
kept
them
local,
where
they're
parents
they're
Community,
was
you
know
sometimes
heck
I
can
remember
in
elementary
school.
They
took
us
down
to
the
jail
to
say
you
don't
want
to
be
here,
which
is
a
pretty
impression.
You
know,
and
well
also.
You
know
they
used
to
bust
our
butts
in
school,
which
was
made
a
fairly
good
impression
too.
Q
As
doing
what
you
didn't
want
to
do,
and
we
didn't
seem
like
we
had
half
the
problems
that
we
have
nowadays
with
this
system.
You
know
why
not
go
back
to
to
putting
these
kids
in
jail
in
their
communities.
I
mean
especially
some
of
these,
these
these
people,
that
are,
you,
know,
committing
murder
and
rape
and
and
and
and
extraordinarily
serious
offenses
at
15
or
16
years
old.
If
they're
able
to
do
that,
they,
in
my
opinion,
they
need
to
be
in
an
adult
jail.
O
You
get
into
lots
of
things
with
that.
I
mean
one
of
the
things
that
created
this
system
is
youth
are
like
10
times
more
likely
to
commit
suicide
if
they're
in
an
adult
jail
and
back
in
that
time.
This
is
my
benefit
to
being
one
of
the
oldest
people
in
the
room,
probably
because
there
were
several
high
profile
cases
where
kids
hung
themselves
and
they
got
the
like
one
of
the
local
jails.
You
know
extreme
lawsuit,
based
on
that
they
paid
a
lot
of
money.
You're.
O
Well,
I'm
telling
you
I'm
telling
you
how
the
system
got
developed
with
that
is
that
they,
you
know
the
kids
have
there's
no
school
system
for
them.
You
know
we
talked
about.
If
we
don't
want
kids
with,
you
know
violent
kids
with
lower
level
kids,
we
certainly
don't
want
I,
think
children
in
with
adults
that
are
much
you.
Q
Know
and
the
the
system
segregate
them
within
County
I
mean:
did
they
segregate
them
within
the
county
jails?
To
like
it,
could
you
not
put
a
juvenile
wing
on
them
or
you
know
a
lot
of
jails.
I
mean
I,
wanted.
Pikeville
actually
has
a
great
GED
program
where
they
actually
have
and
even
have
a
rehab
within
the
jail
that
try
to
tries
to
get
people
off
drugs
and
has
done
successfully
in
in
some
cases,
I
mean.
Could
we
not
look
at
rehabilitating
rehabilitating
these
kids
within
the
penal
system
within
their
own
communities?.
O
I
think
that
if,
if
you
look
back
through
the
years,
you
know
that
was
tried
for
many
many
years.
That
was
the
norm
and
it
was
found
very
lacking,
not
just
in
Kentucky
but
Across.
The
Nation,
and
you
know,
national
federal
office
of
Juvenile,
Justice,
delinquency,
prevention
and
other
laws
actually
have
a
year
for
which
all
states
have
to
get
kids
out
of
adult
jails
and
prisons.
P
We
would
occasionally
see
a
kid
who
had
done
something
really
bad,
but
most
of
the
kids
we
saw
were
were
status
offenders
or
they
were
lower
level
offenders
and
the
stay
that
they
would
have
in
juvenile
detention,
usually
wouldn't
be
for
more
than
three
or
four
weeks.
Today
we
see
a
lot
more
youths
who
have
committed
horribly
violent
crimes
and
who
the
courts
are
processing,
potentially
as
adults
and,
as
the
commissioner
said
earlier,
those
kids
as
opposed
to
staying
in
a
Detention
Facility
for
a
month.
P
They
may
be
there
for
a
year
or
two
years,
so
it
creates
a
different
Dynamic.
Another
factor
and
I
think
this
is
really
important.
We're
seeing
I've
used
now,
I,
don't
know
the
reason
for
this,
but
a
lot
more
of
them
have
serious
mental
illness
and
in
fact
we
we
get
kids
and
I
think
this
is
a
terrible
situation.
We
get
kids.
P
In
fact,
one
of
the
kids
that
you
read
about
a
lot
from
from
one
of
our
facilities
is
a
child
that
has,
from
everything
I've
seen
active,
severe
mental
illness
that
renders
this
child
extremely
violent,
sometimes
uncontrollably
violent.
It's
a
result
of
a
mental
illness
from
what
I've
seen
about
this
case,
and
there
are
other
cases
of
a
similar
nature.
Well,
a
child
like
that
who
is
suffering
from
an
illness
I
think
we
would
all
agree,
doesn't
need
to
be
in
a
Detention
Facility
that
child
needs
to
be
in
a
hospital
getting
medical
treatment.
P
But
when
we
take
these
children
to
the
private
psychiatric
hospitals,
they're
not
going
to
take
them,
because
these
children
are
very
violent,
very
assaultive
and
their
staff
can't
control
them
and
they're
not
going
to
subject
their
staff
to
that
sort,
that
level
of
violence
so,
as
a
last
resort,
I
suppose
these
kids
are
ordered.
These
sick
kids
are
ordered
to
be
detained
in
our
juvenile
facilities.
Our
detention
facilities,
I
can
tell
you
and
and
if
we
have
instances
where
our
staff
has
behaved
inappropriately,
that
needs
to
be.
P
There
needs
to
be
accountability,
but
when
we
are
putting
sick
children
in
juvenile
detention
facilities,
the
outcome's
not
going
to
be
good,
because
it's
a
tragedy
for
that
child
and
it's
a
burden
that
our
staff
is
is
not
well
equipped
to
bear.
And-
and
that
doesn't
happen,
that's
not
just
obviously.
Q
C
It,
sir,
yes,
sir
I
I'm
I'm
sure
the
concern,
particularly
the
the
concern
about
the
status
offenders.
What
is
your
Census
count
today
in
facilities
in
Kentucky.
O
Actually,
hey
and
I
looked
at
that
I
looked
at
it
for
I
think
this
was
actually
yesterday,
I
haven't
looked
at
today's
pop
sheet.
We
had
151
in
our
residential
care,
that's
post,
adjudication
and
192
in
detention
and.
P
O
H
Thank
you,
Mr,
chairman
and
I
understand
over
here,
Mr
secretary,
commissioner
I
understand
what
you're
all
trying
to
do.
We
had
this
conversation,
I,
believe
secretary.
H
H
Just
a
few
seconds
ago,
you
said
some
are
well
staffed
and
some
are
not,
and
those
that
are
well
staffed,
unfortunately,
as
as
much
as
you're
you're
trying
to
find
ways
to
recruit
new
people,
you're
smacking
in
the
face
of
those
that
are
there
that
are
loyal
in
the
areas
that
are
well
staffed
because
now
you're
hiring
people
in
and
paying
them
more
than
the
people.
That's
been
there
for
years
and
people
that's
been
dedicated
to
the
system
to
the
cabinet,
they've
been
dependable,
they've
done
their
jobs.
H
Now,
I
made
this
objection
previously
and
I'll
make
it
again
I'm
supportive
of
giving
increases
of
pay.
As
a
matter
of
fact,
it's
a
decade
overdue,
but
it
has
to
be
equal
for
everybody.
You
cannot
hire
somebody
in
and
pay
them
more
than
somebody
that's
been
there.
10
years,
I
mean
you're,
just
all
of
a
sudden
you're
going
to
get
an
attitude
by
these
employees.
H
Why
should
I
do
my
job
every
day,
because,
obviously
the
cabinet
doesn't
see
my
value
as
much
as
they
do
hiring
somebody
in
these
other
and
I
think
it's
called
Locale
pay
that
you're
that
you're
giving
these
people,
and
so
with
that
secretary
I'm,
taking
you
up
on
your
your
invitation
for
criticism
of
of
this
program
and
you
have
to
find
a
way
to
get
people's
pay
up.
H
If
someone
comes
in
to
a
juvenile
detention
center
facility
as
a
new
employee,
regardless
of
what
area
of
the
state
in
it
should
be
the
same
and
as
time
goes
on,
those
pays
should
remain
equal
to
people
they
hired
in
with,
and
never
should
somebody
new
being
hired
in
doing
the
exact
same
job
or
maybe
even
a
lower
level
job
be
making
more
than
somebody.
That's
been
there
a
while,
and
that
is
a
problem
that
has
to
be
addressed.
H
It
has
to
you
know
we
can
begin
to
talk
about
pay
quality
with
what
the
approach
you're
taking
and
is
pay
equality
to
people
who's
been
there.
That's
good
dedicated
state
employees
that
we
have
to
take
care
of
them
as
well
and
I'm
going
to
be
working
towards
this
and
I
hope.
You
will
be
willing
to
work
with
me
towards
finding
this
equality
to
where
not
only
you
have
the
the
amount
of
of
pay
to
offer
to
new
hires,
but
we
have
our
current
employees
up
in
that
well-paid
range
as
well,
and.
P
And
I
I'm
certainly
willing
to
work
with
you
and
I
know.
Commissioner
Reed
is
as
well
and
I
appreciate
the
criticism
that
I
invited
I
think
you
make
good
points.
I
I
want
to
be
clear.
You
know
the
the
pay
differential
is
based
either
on
shift
or
locality,
we're
not
hiring
new
people
into
a
facility
and
paying
them
more
than
than
someone
else
who
is
working
in
that
facility.
But
I
I
do
understand
the
criticism.
I
think
what
we've
tried
to
do.
P
We
have
limited
resources
and,
as
I
say
what
we've
done
to
to
fund
these
increases
is
cannibalize
vacant
position,
missions
that
we've
not
been
able
to
fill
so
that's
sort
of
a
judgment
game.
You
know
how
many
of
these
positions
can
you
cannibalize
and
because
someday
we
hope
to
fill
them,
and
so
what
we've
done
at
this
point
is
we've
tried
to
concentrate
our
shot
on
where
it's
needed
the
most.
P
None
of
that
invalidates
the
concerns
you
have
and,
and
we
you
know,
I
promise
you
we.
We
appreciate
very
deeply
all
of
the
people
that
work
in
these
facilities
and
and
the
the
facilities
that
we
have
that
are
properly
staffed.
I
mean
we
are
thankful
for
those
facilities.
Believe
me
and
and
we'll
be
happy
to
work
with
you
to
to
to
address
your
concerns.
P
J
I
was
here
in
96
in
98,
when
Ralph
Kelly
took
over
the
DJJ,
and
it
was
from
my
understanding.
It
was
a
consent
decree,
a
court
order
that
we
had
to
separate
juveniles
from
adults
and
I.
Tell
you
what
I've
been
on
this
Judiciary
most
of
that
time
since,
and
things
have
have
really
kind
of
went
off
the
rails
in
the
last
few
years,
and
you
guys
are
here
before
us
again
and
not
really
providing
any
answers
other
than
you
don't
have
staff.
J
O
There
are
some
states,
I
I,
believe
Florida
is
one
of
them
in
which
they
contract
out
for
all
the
facilities
that
they
have.
But
if
you
look
at
those
you'll
see,
there's
certainly
a
lot
of
problems
with
that
too,
and
you
know
this
isn't
something
right
now,
with
the
Staffing
that's
specific
to
DJJ,
you
know,
private
child
cares
are
having
this.
You
know
Methodist
home
and
Baptist,
and
you
know
all
these
other.
The
Congress.
P
I
would
say,
representative
that
one
of
the
things
that
we've
done
because
I
mean
we've,
we
think
kind
of
like
you
do-
are
there
other
states
that
have
solved
this
puzzle
that,
because
we're
happy
to
copy
and
I
I,
actually
I,
don't
mind
telling
you
chairman
who
it
was
a
Natalie
barikanov
of
of
our
staff.
I,
think
you
know
how
good
she
is
to
go,
find
us
some
states
that
are
doing
this
better,
so
that
we
could.
J
P
O
Well,
actually,
I
just
came
in
as
commissioner
in
the
middle
of
August
of
2021,
but
I
was
with
the
DJJ
back
in
its
early
years
and
its
inceptions
when
Dr
Kelly
was
was
first
there.
N
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman
I,
want
this
committee
to
be
aware
that
legislative
oversight
investigation
is
investigating
these.
They
are
visiting
centers.
They
are
visiting
a
facility
in
Indiana
where
the
detention
centers
are
under
the
Department
of
Corrections,
which
is
something
I
think
we
need
to
look
at
I.
Think
all
of
this
and
I'm
not
pointing
fingers
at
anyone.
N
It
is
failed
leadership
because
it's
a
failure
to
keep
up
with
the
changes
that
have
taken
place
over
the
years
I
had
the
opportunity
to
spend
quite
a
bit
of
time
in
the
Detention
Center
in
McCracken
County,
alarming
troubling
and
Mr
secretary.
As
you
said
from
the
president,
it
was
scary
what
I
saw
and
the
stories
that
I
heard
and
things
that
situations
that
have
been
evolving
for
years
that
have
been
ignored
and
that's
part
of
the
the
downside
of
state
government.
Secretaries
come
and
go,
Commissioners
come
and
go
and
there's
no
consistency.
N
So
you
don't
get
to
set
a
philosophy.
You
don't
get
to
set
a
long-term
plan
because
you
may
be
gone
in
four
years
and
you
start
all
over
again
and
then
the
people
that
really
know
what's
going
on.
Nobody
listens
to
them
and
I
think
that's
what's
happened
in
this
circumstance
and
I
think
we
have
fallen
so
far
behind
that
we're
seeing
major
severe
incidents
occur
now,
and
you
know
the
governor
and
Mr
secretary
I
have
no
doubts
that
you
plan
to
work
with
us.
N
I
wish
I
felt
as
confident
in
the
governor's
willingness
to
let
you
work
with
us
and
not
make
decisions
politically
on
covering
his
rear
right
now,
because
this
is
an
issue
that
it's
not
going
to
be
fixed
by
changing
a
couple
facilities
or
moving
some
kids.
There
are
structural.
There
are
philosophical
issues
within
DJJ
that
need
to
be
addressed.
I
heard
things
like
they
staff
being
encouraged,
no
discipline,
no
structure,
these
kids
have
it
hard
enough.
We
don't
want
to
make
it
any
worse
on
them
again.
N
Mr
secretary,
as
you
said,
this
is
these
are
not
the
same
kids
we
had
20
years
ago.
The
programs
that
are
set
up
in
these
facilities
today
were
meant
to
change
the
lives
of
the
kids
that
were
there
20
years
ago,
the
population
that
we
see
in
there.
Now
these
programs
don't
work.
They
can't
even
get
through
the
programs,
because
there
are
disruptions
every
time
they
sit
down
to
have
a
class
There's
A
disruption.
N
The
graduation
rates
are
falling,
the
system
doesn't
work,
it's
broken,
it's
completely
broken,
and
at
this
point
we
can
place
blame
all
day
long,
but
we've
got
to
sit
down
and
together
Governor
we
have
got
to
come
up
with
a
structure
that
is
going
to
serve
the
kids
that
we
can
save
and
those
that
we
can't
save.
We've
got
to
put
them
in
a
place
where
those
who
are
guarding
them
have
the
training
and
the
ability
to
to
do
that
job,
but
we
can't
keep
them
all
together.
N
That's
just
I
think
we
all
realize
that
that
just
simply
isn't
going
to
work
and
DJJ
has
got
to
come
up
with
a
different
philosophy
on
on
how
to
run
these
centers
and
how
to
get
the
most
out
of
these
centers.
The
young
people
that
I
saw
this
this
concept
of
Youth
workers
with
the
kids
that
are
in
there
right
now.
You
can't
have
youth
workers,
you
got
to
have
prison
guards,
somebody's
going
to
get
killed,
no
question
about
it.
N
N
I've
said
that
it's
unacceptable
and
and
Mr
secretary
I'm
not
placing
blame
on
you,
because
you
haven't
been
here
that
long
and
I
I
think
this
is
years
of
just
neglect
in
not
recognizing
what
was
going
on
in
these
centers
and
maybe
not
listening
to
those
that
are
on
the
front
lines
dealing
with
with
this
walking
around
and
checking
doors
throughout
the
day.
As
you
said,
a
young
man
that
is
mentally
ill.
This
spends
90
percent
of
his
day
in
a
Cell
without
treatment.
What
century
is
this?
N
We've
got
to
do
better
and
and
I
my
proposal,
and
my
push
is
going
to
be
that
we
we
do.
We
take
emergency
actions
and
I
think
that's
been
done.
It's
going
to
create
some
problems,
I,
don't
think
they
were
completely
thought
through,
but
we
had
to
do
something
now
and
I.
N
I
agree
with
that
and
I
think
the
things
we've
done
will
help,
but
at
some
point,
when
we
take
care
of
the
immediate
issues,
we've
got
to
back
up
and
we've
got
to
talk
through
where
we
are
the
population
that
we're
serving
all
the
programs
that
are
there
and
we've
got
to
evaluate
where
we're
going
in
the
future,
and
we've
got
to
make
sure
that
this
doesn't
happen
again.
Those
facilities
have
become
the
exact
same
thing
that
DJJ
was
created
to
stop.
That's.
C
N
And
We've
we've
got
to
get
in
front
of
it
and
it's
going
to
take
a
really
deep
dive
in
all
these
issues
and
we're
going
to
have
to
listen
to
the
school
districts
that
are
that
are
appointed
to
to
teach
the
kids
all
the
support
programs
that
go
into
it
separate
these
kids
that
can
be
saved,
and
these
that
that
can't
these
more
the
the
more
serious
offenders,
the
rate,
the
murder.
N
We
have
to
address
those
differently
and
I'm,
not
so
sure
that
under
Doc
is
not
the
best
place
for
them
to
be
not
in
the
same
facilities
as
the
adults,
but
to
be
able
to
share
resources,
and
you
have
guards
that
are
better
able
to
to
guard
them.
Some
kids
treatment,
education,
it's
just
not
going
to
work
and
for
the
most
part,
those
are
the
kids
that
are
in
these
facilities.
Now
we
simply
don't
detain
the
rest
of
the
kids
that
those
facilities
were
designed
to
serve
and
I'll
stop
there.
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman.
P
C
M
You
Mr
chairman,
as
a
practitioner
of
over
40
years,
I've
been
involved
with
these
juveniles
and
adults
and
I
hope
that
what
I'm
hearing
from
this
discussion
from
this
side
and
your
side
that
you're
going
to
come
back
to
us
with
some
major
recommendations,
I
mean
I'm,
appalled,
I'm,
like
Senator
wheeler,
that
we're
having
kids
with
mental
problems
being
confined
in
a
place
with
other
hardcore
criminals,
and
that's
going
to
be
a
problem
just
in
itself
and
I
hope
that
we're
educating
these
juveniles
mandating
it
instead
of
turning
a
wild
TV
on
every
day
for
them
and
I
hope.
M
You
come
back
with
some
recommendations
if
we
have
to
build
a
facility
it's,
but
we
can't
do
anything
from
this
side,
but
you
all
come
back
with
these
recommendations.
We're
not
the
body
of
study
out
there.
Unless
we
start
bringing
people
in
that'll,
tell
us
to
tell
you
all
what
to
do
and
can
I
hope
and
depend
on
you
all
to
come
back
sometime,
we're
coming
back
in
January
that
there's
going
to
be
some
recommendations,
the
funding
and
all
that
stuff
to
get
this
problem
straightened
out.
Senator.
P
I'm
sure
that
that
yes,
I'm
sure
that
we
will
be
talking
and
again
I've
shared
with
you
having
these
mentally
ill
children
who
should
be
hospitalized
in
a
Detention
Facility.
It's
not
that
that
should
not
happen,
but
it
has
been
happening
for
for
a
long
time
for
many
years
and
yes,
it's.
We
need
to
find
a
solution
to
that.
One
follow-up.
P
But
we
we
have
to
do
as
good
as
we
can
do,
while,
while
we
have
them
and
the
governor's
plan
he's
actually
a
lot
of
the
things
that
that
he
is
doing
will
address
some
of
Senator
Carroll's
concerns,
which
I
appreciate
very
much.
There's
a
lot
that
I
agree
with
with
my
friend
Senator
Carol
I
agree
when
you
have
kids
that
that
have
this
great
propensity
for
Disturbing,
Behavior
and
violence,
you
you
can't
do
any
programming
unless
you
have
a
safe
and
secure
facility.
That's
that's
where
it
starts
so
I
think.
P
If
we
can
separate
these
groups,
has
the
governor
and
is
doing
the
the
use,
who
don't
exhibit
that
sort
of
behavior.
We
have
a
much
better
chance
of
serving
them
of
really
serving
them
and
we
have
a
much
better
chance
with
with
the
others
to
to
keep
them
safe.
These
are
not
going
to
be
easy
changes.
Implement
implementing
these
changes
is
going
to
be
very,
very
difficult
because
we
do
have
staffing
issues.
We
have
aging
facilities
that
are
not
on
Wheels,
they
are
where
they
were
built,
20
and
30
years
ago.
P
So
we're
going
to
have
enormous
challenges,
but
but
what
the
governor
is
doing,
it
will
not
fix
every
problem,
but
it
will
improve
the
system
and
and
I'll
just
say
this
I've
worked
with
Governor
Bashir
on
this
I
know.
He
feels
very
personally.
Every
time
we
have
a
staff
member,
that's
injured,
or
every
time
we
have
a
youth
that
is
assaulted
and
and
I
know
that
he
is
making
changes
that
are
going
to
make
improvements
in
this
system.
M
M
K
You
Mr
chairman
I,
know:
what's
the
hours
late,
so
I'm
going
to
be
very
quick.
I've
got
three
points.
I
want
to
make
after
the
committee
meeting
that
Senator
Carol
and
I
co-sponsor
or
co-chair
a
few
months
ago,
we
asked
we
sent
some
records
requests
over
your
office
has
responded.
We
don't
think
the
response
is
fully
adequate.
Thank
you
for
what
you've
sent
over
we're
going
to
be
sending
over
a
subpoena
in
short
order.
K
If
you
have
any
issues
with
that
subpoena,
please
contact
one
of
us
either
Senator,
Carroll
or
myself,
to
discuss
those
issues
and
we'll
go
we'll
work
through
that,
so
subpoena
is
coming.
The
second
issue
is
I.
I,
don't
think
we
can
allow
the
public
to
think
from
this
committee's
comments
that
we
want
to
go
back
to
the
local
level.
That's
one
senator's
thoughts
in
my
view,
although
I
respect,
Senator
really
a
great
deal,
that
is
not
the
way
to
go
forward.
That's
going
backward
kids
are
different.
K
We
know
that
we
there
were
a
number
of
times
where,
where
kids
were
preyed
upon
by
adults
when
it
was
in
the
old
system,
we
cannot
go
back.
That
is,
that
is,
should
should
be
off
the
table
and
and
that's
something
that
we
can
discuss.
Senator
Williams
brought
it
up,
but
I
think
you'll
understand
how
bad
of
a
decision
that
would
be.
We
know,
kids
are
different.
The
programming
is
not
the
same
that
they
need
and
so
forth
and
so
on.
K
So
that's
Point
number
two
point
number
three
I'm
going
to
try
to
end
a
little
bit
positive
because
obviously
I'm
very
critical
of
the
administration
when
I
think
it's
appropriate.
I
was
also
very
critical
of
the
Bevin
Administration
as
well,
and
so
I'm
going
to
be
critical
but
I'm
going
to
also
commend
the
governor
and
yourself
for
for
something
that
you've
done.
But
let
me
say
this:
what
happened
in
Adair
County
can't
just
be
glossed
over.
We
had
a
young
girl
who
was
raped
by
multiple
juvenile
males
and
I
said
in
October.
K
It
was
the
most
foreseeable
thing
in
the
history
I
predicted
something
like
this
was
going
to
happen
and
it
happened.
I
was
very
uncomfortable
and
unsatisfied
with
your
response.
When
I
said,
let's
separate
these
kids
and
you
brought
up
and
to
be
fair
to
you,
it's
probably
the
first
time
you
thought
about
it.
You
brought
up
what
I
think
was
an
inappropriate
response,
which
is
we
can't
separate
them.
That's
hogwash,
I
have
a
I
have
a
prison
in
my
district,
where
we
separate
the
women
from
the
men
we've
been
doing
from
time
immemorial.
K
We've
been
doing
this
forever
I'm
glad
the
governor
is
now
on
page
on
the
right
page.
To
do
this.
The
Catalyst
to
the
governor's
actions
were
this
gang
rape,
but
since
then,
and
I'm
assuming
Senator
Kerry
you're
talking
about
a
lawsuit
can't
imagine
that's
not
one
coming
from
that,
but
since
then-
and
this
is
where
I
want
to
end
positive-
the
governor
has
taken
I
think
very
positive
steps.
K
Some
of
them
were
17
rape,
murder
charges,
some
13
14
year
old
girls
charges
or
whatever
the
lower
end
was
they
never
should
have
been
put
together,
especially
and
I
don't
care
what
other
states
do,
but
especially
when
we
know
we
have
acute
Staffing
problems
that
are
more
cute
today
than
they've
been
and
under
your
own
testimony
and
the
and
the
the
charges
that
we
are
seeing
among
most
of
the
boys
are
much
more
severe
than
they've
ever
been.
K
That's
why
it
was
so
foreseeable,
and
if
I
was
this
young
girl's,
father
and
I
know
you're
with
me
here.
I
would
be
very
angry
that
what
happened
to
my
daughter
didn't
need
to
happen.
It
shouldn't
have
happened.
We
had
pushed
you
guys
to
separate
them,
and
it
wasn't
done
until
after
that,
rape,
let
me
go
back
to
being
positive.
Separating
the
genders
is
the
right
thing
to
do.
It
is
legal.
There's
no
question
about
that,
and
also
separating
by
age
or,
most
importantly,
by
offense
is
also
very
good.
K
So
I
want
to
commend
you
for
taking
those
those
very
positive,
immediate
steps.
Now
in
January,
let's
get
a
long-term
resolution
to
the
issue,
but
I
don't
want
to
I
would
be
very
critical
when
I
need
to
be,
but
I
also
want
to
commend
the
steps
that
you've
taken
since
that
meeting
since
the
incident
in
Adair,
County
and
I
think
that
will
be
a
big
step
forward
to
keeping
our
kids
safe.
Thank
you.
Mr
chairman
I'll,.
C
C
She
wanted
to
speak
and
I
wanted
you
to
wanted
you
all
to
be
able
to
hear
from
her
before
we're
done.
Miss
spoon
you
have
the
floor.
R
Thank
you
very
much
chairman
Westerfield,
commissioner
Reed
I
want
to
apologize
in
advance
if
I
interchange,
the
terminology
of
these
juvenile
centers
versus
Youth
Development,
but
I
do
wish
that
Senator
wheeler
was
back
but
I
think
I'm
going
to
address
a
few
comments
that
have
been
made
before
the
committee
today,
as
speaking
as
a
resident
for
Madera
County.
First
of
all,
chairman
westerved
and
the
rest
of
the
committee
members
I
appreciate
your
time.
I'm
I'm,
going
to
limit
myself
to
five
minutes
so
I'm
going
to
go
quickly.
R
I
did
put
some
talking
points
in
the
packets
that
you
have
in
front
of
you.
So
hopefully
you
can
follow
along
I
want
to
start
with.
I
want
to
put
this
out
of
the
box
idea
out
to
you
as
you're,
considering
what
the
future
of
the
Adair
Youth
Development
Center
looks
like
it's.
It's
the
place
where
I
call
home
is
Adair
County
before
I
present
this
out
of
the
box
idea,
though
I
think
it's
important
for
you
to
know
how
I
got
to
this
chair
here
today.
R
My
father,
Larry
Russell
Bryant,
was
elected
as
the
next
County
judge
executive
for
Adair
County
I'll
be
serving
alongside
him
in
the
next
four
years,
but
during
his
entire
campaign
there
was
much
discussion
about
the
future
of
the
Adair
County
Regional
Jail.
It's
a
37
year
old
facility.
It
has
51
beds,
but
houses
anywhere
between
120
to
145
inmates,
half
of
which
are
classified
as
state
inmates.
R
The
jail
currently
consumes
about
85
percent
of
our
property
tax
revenue
that
Adair
County
takes
in,
which
happens
to
be
the
only
source
of
revenue
for
Adair
County
at
the
moment.
So
any
reduction
in
the
operating
expense
of
the
county
jail
makes
a
positive
impact
on
the
County's
bottom
line.
In
the
wake
of
the
horrific
incident
that
occurred
on
November,
the
11th
many
Adair
countyans
began
to
wonder
what
was
going
to
happen
to
the
juvenile
center
there.
Because
of
my
unique
perspective,
and
having
talked
to
so
many
voters
during
the
campaign,
I
began
to
wonder.
R
Along
with
my
father,
is
there
a
way
we
can
reallocate
resources
and
Facilities
here
in
Adair
County
to
create
a
unique
scenario
that
will
help
reduce
the
burden
of
incarceration
not
only
for
Adair
County
but
district
51
as
a
whole
in
Adair
County?
Currently
we
have
three
incarceration
facilities.
The
Adair
Youth
Development
Center
has
80
beds
and,
as
far
as
occupancy
goes,
I
didn't
have
time
together
the
average
daily
rate,
but
as
a
resident
of
Adair
County
I've
heard,
we've
only
had
seven
or
eight
inmates
in
that
facility,
at
times
sometimes
25,
sometimes
30.
R
As
of
late.
When
we
brought
the
the
other
juveniles
in
from
urban
areas,
we
had
many
more
obviously
the
Adair
Regional
Jail
has
51
beds.
Current
occupancy
is
about
122,
and
we
also
have
a
Class
D
facility
in
Adair
County
with
30
beds,
and
the
current
occupancy
is
about
23.
I'd
like
to
propose
today
that
the
current
juvenile
center
continue
to
be
a
state-owned
facility,
housing,
adult
State
inmates
from
District
51..
R
It
was
sadly
demonstrated
on
the
night
of
November
the
11th
that
Adair
County
does
not
have
the
Personnel
needed
to
increase
the
occupancy
rate
of
our
juvenile
center
by
bringing
in
to
juveniles
from
urban
areas
like
Louisville.
This
large
state-owned
property
could
be
better
utilized
for
adults
in
our
local
area,
as
opposed
to
bringing
in
more
juveniles
that
come
from
potentially
a
criminal
demographic
one
that
our
local
workers
may
not
be
prepared
to
handle.
R
This
would
include
things
such
as
retrofitting
the
juvenile
center
with
double
bunks,
so
that
we
go
from
an
80
bed
facility
to
160
for
the
adults
and
also
changing
the
facility
to
retrofit
to
accommodate
adults
versus
juveniles.
Another
thing
that
would
happen
would
that
we
could
reduce
our
jail
occupancy
at
the
county
level
in
half
on
those.
So
those
State
inmates
at
the
county
jail
currently
will
be
moved
to
this
newer
state
facility,
and
then
that
would
allow
us
to
do
some
much
needed
maintenance
on
our
County
Jail.
R
We
could
also
consider
moving
the
state
classified
class
D
inmates
to
this
current
juvenile
center
now,
which
could
be
a
proposed
state
center.
This
would
free
up
that
facility
as
a
potential
juvenile
center
for
our
District
Juvenile
inmates,
keeping
them
close
to
home,
as
we
know
that
having
family
close
by
is
the
best
for
our
children
and
our
teens.
The
30
capacity
facility
would
be
more
in
line
with
the
actual
occupancy
needs
of
the
juvenile
center
before
it
began
taking
inmates
as
of
late.
R
Lastly,
the
juvenile
center
houses
an
education
area
along
with
a
vocational
area
within
its
walls.
We
would
love
to
see
these
areas
be
used
for
Workforce,
re-entry
programs
for
adult
substance,
abuse
programs
and
to
be
able
to
offer
other
valuable
Therapy
Services
to
inmates
that
Express
the
desire
to
reform
and
re
and
re-enter
the
society.
This
scenario
may
not
fit
any
other
area
in
Kentucky,
but
just
as
counties
all
over
the
state
are
finding
creative
and
personalized
ways
to
generate
Revenue
based
on
their
Niche
markets
and
the
ways
of
Tourism
and
economic
development.
R
R
I've
spoken
with
state
representative
elect
Amy
Nabors,
and
she
supports
this
scenario
for
district
51
and
she's
agreed
to
serve
on
a
committee
that
will
look
further
into
this
idea
and
help
gather
more
specific
data
and
support
evidence
with
regards
to
average
juvenile
occupancy
data
and
the
numbers
of
prisoners
that
are
currently
being
transported
from
Metcalf,
Monroe
and
Cumberland
counties.
Those
Three
Counties
do
not
have
Jails
of
their
own,
so
they're
having
to
be
transported
and
they're
paying
other
counties
to
house
their
state
inmates.
C
I,
don't
see
any
questions.
Miss
spoon
I
appreciate
it
when
you
sent
that
to
me,
I
wanted
to
I
wanted
the
committee
members
to
hear
that
and
and
I
wanted
the
secretary
to
hear
that
as
they
consider
how
they
Shuffle
facilities
and
how
they
think
about
where
to
go
from
here.
Yes,
so
I
I,
don't
think
we
should
discount
any
idea
on
spec
necessarily,
certainly
not
the
ones
that
you've
proposed.
So
I
appreciate
you
making
the
trip
and
thank
you
for
being
patient.
C
Ma'am
I
know
I
also
want
to
recognize
Senator
wise
who's
been
with
us
for
the
entire
committee
meeting
today,
who
represents
Derek
County
he's
been
very
active
on
this
issue
and
been
a
concern
for
him.
He
reached
out
to
me
as
well
I
wanted
to
make
sure
he
was
recognized.
Do
you
want
to
say
anything
Senator
all
right.
C
One
last
thing
here
on
the
on
the
subject
matter:
we
had
a
judge
that
was
here
earlier
today.
Is
she
still
here
judge
Moore?
Where
are
you
there
hi?
Thank
you.
She
wanted
to
speak,
but
in
the
interest
of
time
I'd.
Let
her
know
that
we're
gonna
we're
gonna
forego
that
because
I
was
concerned,
we
may
not
have
time,
but
she
did
have
remarks
there
in
your
folders
or
they've
been
distributed
since
then
so
or
they're
about
to
be
excuse
me.
C
We
do
have
that
we'll
get
that
sent
to
each
member.
Thank
you
judge
for
being
here
and
for
your
patience.
I
appreciate
it
Mr
secretary
I,
hope
that
you
all
will
will
take
the
heart.
I
really
appreciate
representative
nemus's
comments
there
at
the
end,
I,
don't
think
we
should
go
backwards.
I
love
the
idea
of
separating
by
offense
and
focusing
the
resources
and
the
programming
for
children
because
they
are
different
and
they
need
to
be
treated
differently
than
adults.
I,
don't
think
status.
Offenders
should
be
in
facilities
at
all.
C
I
tried
getting
that
accomplished
with
Senate
Bill
200
a
decade
ago
or
nine
years
ago,
and
we
we
couldn't
get
it
done.
I,
don't
know,
I,
don't
know
what
a
deer
County's
population
looked
like
on
November
11th,
but
to
hear
that
you've
got
you.
L
C
150
in
this
group,
another
100
and
some
odd
another
group
and
and
a
good
chunk
of
those-
are
status.
Offense
kids.
They
have
no
business
being
in
a
Detention
Facility.
They
need
services
around.
All
of
these
kids
need
Services,
wrapped
around
them
and
their
families
and
and
there
there
need
to
be
accountability
and
there
needs
to
be
help
and
response
status
of
its
kids.
Don't
belong
there
and
I
hope
that
we
can
accomplish
that.
I
appreciate
everyone's
time.
C
Thank
you
for
everyone
for
being
patient
here
as
we
go,
I
wish
you
all
a
Merry
Christmas.