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From YouTube: Interim Joint Committee on State Government 6-15-21
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A
B
Representative
flood
he's
gone
here
in
the
75th
district.
Thank
you,
representative,
gooch,
here
in
the
room
representative,
graham
representative
heath,
president
from
my
district
in
mayfield.
Thank
you,
representative
hevron,
president
in
the
room
representative
ims
present
in
the
room
representative
johnson
president.
C
A
I'm
here
in
the
room,
thank
you,
madam
clerk.
We
have
a
quorum
and
are
duly
constituted
to
do
our
business
here
today.
Thank
you
again
for
being
here
and
being
in
person.
A
I
think
this
large
committee,
it's
good
to
see
everybody's
faces
again
so,
as
you
all
know,
that
one
of
the
biggest
tasks
that
this
committee
has
before
it
in
the
next
year
is
redistricting,
and
we
wanted
to
start
off
the
interim
season
just
to
get
an
kind
of
a
10
000
foot
view
of
the
legal
environment
surrounding
redistricting
and
who
better
to
give
that
to
us
than
some
experts,
national
experts
from
ncsl.
A
So
we
have
virtually.
We
have
wendy
underhill,
who
is
the
director
of
elections
and
redistricting
for
ncsl,
and
we
also
have
ben
williams,
who's
a
policy
specialist
for
elections
and
redistricting
for
ncsl.
So
we
have
dedicated
our
whole
meeting
to
hearing
their
presentation
and
then
we'll
have
time
to
ask
questions
at
the
end.
So
mr
williams
or
mrs
underhill,
the
program
is
yours
and
please
feel
free
to
move
forward.
Thank
you.
F
Thank
you,
chairman
mills
and
members
of
the
committee.
It's
our
pleasure
to
be
with
you.
I
just
wish
that
we
were
actually
with
you.
We
had
some
thoughts
about
that
and
last
minute
decided
them
to
stay
stay
back
in
denver.
F
F
That
means
our
leadership
at
the
tippy
top
goes
d-r-d-r
our
work,
however,
I
would
say,
is
nonpartisan
the
work
that
we
produce,
we
like
to
imagine
can
be
read
and
appreciated
by
people
of
either
political
party
or
outside.
It's
just
data
is
mostly
what
we
do
and
you
can
see
some
other
things
that
we
do
here
on
this
slide.
But
from
my
perspective,
the
bread
and
butter
issue
that
we
do
is
respond
to
research
requests
from
you
all.
We
handle
these
in
a
confidential
manner.
F
That
means
we
don't
share
with
other
people
in
your
state
or
from
other
states
what
we're
being
asked
about.
So,
if
any
of
you
would
like
to
contact
banner
me
after
the
hearing,
please
feel
free,
that's
what
we
get
paid
to
do.
Then.
I
guess
the
last
caveat
is
that
ncsl
does
not
offer
advice
on
policy
matters
that
come
before
state
legislatures.
We
do
have
a
role
in
d.c,
where
our
staff
lobbies
congress
for
states
rights,
but
when
an
issue
is
in
front
of
a
legislature,
we
are
there
to
provide
a
50-state
perspective.
F
So
we've
divided
our
work
into
two
sections
today:
first
the
census
and
second
redistricting,
and
in
other
decades
it
wouldn't
have
been
necessary
to
have
a
chunk
about
the
census.
The
census
was
just
assumed.
You
turn
on
the
tap
and
water
comes
out.
You
go
to
the
census
and
data
comes
out,
but
that
has
not
been
true
this
decade.
F
So
we're
going
to
spend
a
little
bit
of
time
on
that
and
then
I
will
turn
it
over
to
ben
for
the
redistricting
side
of
things,
and
we
are
happy
to
take
questions
in
the
middle
if
that
makes
sense,
but
I'll
just
go
forward
and
we'll
ask
that
question
when
I
get
done
with
this
first
chunk,
so
the
census
really
does
matter
it
matters
because
every
year
for
the
last
10
years,
1.5
trillion
dollars
in
federal
funding
has
been
distributed
across
the
states
based
on
formulas
that
use
census
data
and
it's
good
to
start
with
the
money
aspect.
F
I
know
that
we're
here
to
talk
about
redistricting
and
that
matters
a
huge
amount
for
that
too.
But
I
will
just
say:
states
have
a
lot
at
stake
because
of
the
amount
of
federal
funding
that
comes
in
and
that
is
15.8
billion
dollars
is
estimated
to
come
to
kentucky
every
year
based
on
the
previous
census.
That's
a
big
chunk
of
money.
Apportionment
is
determined,
of
course,
by
the
census.
F
Redistricting
can't
be
done
to
meet
the
one
person
one
vote
principle
without
good
data,
and
also
the
census
is
used
by
policymakers
at
all
levels
of
government
and
outside
of
government
to
make
the
decisions
they
need
to.
Do.
I
like
to
think
of
walmart,
knows
where
to
put
its
next
store
based
on
census
data.
F
So
there
are
two
releases
of
data
from
the
senses
that
come
in
the
year
following
the
census
itself
and
the
first
of
those
has
already
arrived.
That's
the
apportionment
data
and
it
came
on
april
26
and
the
second
data
release
the
one
that's
more
important
is
still
yet
to
come.
So
what
we
know
now
is
how
many
people
live
in
each
state.
F
Just
a
second
then
for
the
other
side,
then,
in
terms
of
the
second
date
of
release
that
will
tell
us
the
details
about
where
within
a
state
population
has
shifted
and
what
the
nature
of
the
state
is
demographically,
so
race
will
be
available.
Then,
and
this
data
is
expected
by
august
16th,
but
I
do
want
to
stop
for
a
moment
and
talk
about
august
16th
versus
september
30th.
F
The
census
bureau
had
originally
said
well.
Originally,
this
data
was
all
to
be
out
by
april
1st,
but
because
of
delays,
which
we'll
talk
a
little
bit
about
the
census
bureau
had
said
that
it
would
release
this
detailed
data
on
september
30th
and
then
a
few
months
later,
it
said
well.
Actually
we
can
give
it
to
you
on
august
16th
in
a
different
format
than
what
we'll
give
it
to
you
on
september
30th.
So
it
is
the
same
data.
F
The
numbers
will
not
change
from
the
one
date
to
the
other,
but
this
is
still
a
little
bit
of
a
hiccup
for
states,
because
it's
not
clear
in
all
states
whether
that
august
16th
release
can
be
considered.
The
official
release
from
the
census
bureau
and
our
expectation
is
that
different
states
will
interpret
that
differently,
but
the
data
will
be
the
exact
same,
whether
you
start
on
august
16th
or
you
wait
until
september
30th.
F
What
will
be
different
is
that
on
six
on
august
16th,
your
data
meisters
will
go
into
a
portal
at
the
census
bureau
and
extract
what
they
need,
whereas
on
september
30th
the
census
bureau
will
send
dvds
and
flash
drives
to
the
states
with
the
data
in
a
more
easily
interpretable
fashion.
For
your
everyday
person
on
the
street,
your
data
people
should
have
no
problem
with
the
august
16th
data.
It's
just
us
everyday
folk
who
might
have
an
easier
time
reading
what's
handed
out
in
september,
all
right
now
we
can
go
to
the
next
slide,
then.
F
So
it's
no
surprise
that
kentucky
neither
lost
nor
gained
a
seat
in
congress,
but
I
still
thought
it
might
be
fun
to
see
who
did
lose
and
gain
the
green
states
gained.
The
peach
states
lost
texas
was
the
only
state
that
gained
two
and
no
states
lost
two.
F
F
So
kentucky
grew
at
3.7
percent
and
I'm
pretty
sure
that
you
all
will
understand
way
better
than
I
will
where
that
growth
took
place
or
anything
about
what
that
means.
For,
for
you,
there
were
states
that
were
very
high
over
15
percent
growth
and
then,
as
I
said,
there
were
the
states
that
had
the
decrease,
just
those
three
states
and
in
terms
of
details
for
kentucky
specifically,
your
may
primary,
is
the
eighth
of
in
the
nation.
F
But
that-
and
it
seems
to
me
that
your
constitution
provides
less
of
a
pinch
as
to
when
you're
redistricting
has
to
be
done
relative
to
some
of
the
other
states
who
have
earlier
deadlines
and
kentucky
is
one
of
17
states
where
the
constitution
doesn't
explicitly
say
that
you
must
use
the
decennial
census
data
for
redistricting
by
me,
calling
that
out,
I'm
not
in
any
way
suggesting
you
should
do
anything
other
than
use
the
decennial
census
data,
just
a
sort
of
fun
fact
to
know
that
that
a
lot
of
states
are
explicit,
that
they
say
when
the
decennial
census
data
arrives
and
then
I'll
offer
that
just
in
terms
of
the
way
this
census
operates,
no
two
have
ever
been.
F
The
same
technology,
of
course,
has
changed.
It
used
to
be
done
by
u.s
marshals
on
horseback.
Here,
we've
got
a
picture,
I
believe.
That's
in
1920
gathering
information
on
a
clipboard
in
1920
was
an
interesting
year
in
that
there
was
no
reapportionment
for
congress
done
that
year.
They
just
couldn't
get
it
done,
so
they
used
the
same
seats
from
1910
all
the
way
up
to
1930.,
and
then
1960
was
the
first
time
that
forms
were
mailed
out
to
people.
F
But
even
then
people
went
around
and
picked
up
the
completed
forms
and
then
in
1975
a
public
law
94171
was
passed
by
congress
and
it
had
a
great
deal
of
support
from
ncsl
and
the
states.
It's
sort
of
almost
part
of
the
origin
story
for
ncsl
that
the
states
came
together
to
say
to
congress.
F
If
we're
going
to
have
to
redistrict
every
decade,
we
need
good
data
to
do
it,
and
so
this
data
is
now
required
to
be
produced
by
the
census
bureau
in
a
format
that
is
quite
granular
for
specifically
the
needs
of
redistricting
and
that's
the
data
we're
waiting
for
until
august
or
september
september,
depending
on
how
you
look
at
it,
and
this
this
decade
in
particular,
is
different
because
of
those
delays
and
the
fact
that
there's
sort
of
these
two
releases
of
the
same
data
and
also
how
people
count
it
were
counted.
F
So
let's
look
at
the
next
slide
for
that,
then
this
was
the
first
year
where
there
was
an
online
option
for
completing
your
questionnaire
and
I'm
guessing
that
many
of
the
people
in
the
room
here
did
use
that
online
option
turned
out
to
be
more
successful
than
the
census
bureau
had
anticipated,
but
it
was
still
completely
fine
to
respond
by
mail.
If
you
didn't
respond
online
or
or
in
some
other
way,
then
a
the
full
questionnaire
was
mailed
out
to
your
household.
F
So
and
then
there
were
some
people
who
got
the
full
form
anyway
without
having
to
ask
for
it,
and
this
was
a
year
when
they
could
call
in
by
phone-
and
that
was
the
phone
number
was
distributed
by
postcards
to
people
around
the
nation,
and
there
were
people
who
could
answer
your
call
in
12
languages,
plus
english
on
the
phone,
and
then
they
also
supported
this
in
59
other
languages
through
video
guides
and
such
things,
and
then
there
is
still
the
door
knocking
operation.
F
This
is,
they
are
called
the
enumerators
and
they're,
not
volunteers,
they're,
they're
paid,
but
it's
a
large
but
short
term
workforce.
It's
about
500
000
people,
get
hired
to
go,
knock
on
doors
and
make
sure
that
everybody
has
done
what
they
needed
to
do
and
my
husband,
who's,
mostly
retired,
chose
to
do
that.
So
we
had
interesting
stories
in
our
household
from
his
times
out
in
the
street,
trying
to
track
people
down,
and
my
conversations
with
legislators
and
the
census
bureau
about
how
things
were
going.
F
But
if
a
household
didn't
respond
with
by
paper
by
a
knock
at
the
door
by
going
online,
but
yet
the
census
bureau
knew
that
there
was
a
house
there
or
household
whatever
that
might
look
like.
Then
the
enumerators
could
actually
ask
the
mail
carrier
or
a
neighbor
like
who
lives
in
this
house.
Can
you
help
me
fill
it
in
and
if
that
wasn't
available,
then
administrative
records
were
often
available,
so
utility
bills
and
tax
records.
F
That
kind
of
thing
so
there's
some
amount
of
filling
in
the
details
based
on
imputation
instead
of
actual
direct
responses
from
householders
themselves.
So
I
keep
talking
about
these
delays
and,
of
course,
everything
last
year
was
delayed.
It
was
an
unprecedented
year
in
every
possible
way.
We've
talked
about
the
pandemic.
There
were
fires,
floods
and
tornadoes
that
slowed
down
in
the
enumeration
process.
In
several
states.
Texas
comes
to
mind.
In
particular,
there
were
policy
changes
during
that
enumeration
time.
There
were
some
lawsuits
that
sort
of
go.
F
This
way,
no
go
that
way,
so
that
was
kind
of
a
problem,
and
then
there
was
a
decision
to
use
a
new
system
for
avoiding
the
release
of
private
information.
It's
called
differential
privacy
that
just
took
a
little
bit
of
it
is
potentially
contributing
to
the
delays
that
we're
now
seeing,
but
whatever
the
facts
about
the
the
background,
what
we
know
is
that
the
data
is
arriving
either
4.5
months
late
or
six
months
late,
depending
on
whether
you
use
that
august
date.
F
So
what
are
the
problems
with
having
delays
before
I
actually
get
to
problems
with
delays?
I
just
will
say
that,
no
matter
when
it
arrived
the
people
in
each
state
that
manage
the
data
and
those
could
be
legislative
staff
or
they
could
be
the
software
vendor
staff.
They
need
a
couple
of
weeks,
at
least
to
prep
the
data.
My
point
is
that
when
it
arrives
on
august
16th,
you
can't
start
drawing
lines
on
august
17th.
F
You
have
to
let
these
folks
do
a
little
bit
of
work
to
make
sure
that
the
data
is
imported
properly
into
your
software
and
do
some
dry
runs
with
it.
So
there
is
a
processing
delay
yet
to
come,
and
then,
after
that,
there's
a
whole
lot
more.
That
goes
happening
that
happens
in
addition
to
redistricting.
F
There
are
these
deadlines,
and
I
see
that
kentucky
has
a
november
third
candidate
filing
deadline.
So
that
would
mean
to
me
that
you'd
want
these
maps
fully
up
and
ready
to
go
before
you
got
to
the
start
of
that
filing
period.
Then
in
some
states
there's
a
residency
requirement.
Then,
if
a
person
has
to
live
in
the
state
for
a
whole
year
before
they
can
run,
that
might
easily
mean
that
there's
a
november
deadline.
F
You've
got
it
through
the
opening
of
your
candidate
filing
deadline
and
then,
after
the
maps
are
drawn,
they
still
get
handed
off
to
local
election
officials,
who
have
a
great
deal
of
work
to
do,
and-
and
this
would
be
a
place
where
understanding
how
it
works
specifically
in
kentucky
could
be
useful.
F
But
in
general
the
those
folks
are
making
sure
that
each
voter
is
assigned
to
the
exact
right
district,
whether
it's
the
congressional
district
or
right
down
to
a
local
district
and
they're,
also
probably
redrawing
the
precincts,
and
it's
so
that
the
precincts
fit
within
the
maps
that
you
all
could
hand
off
to
them
and
then,
of
course,
there's
the
primaries
themselves.
So
a
lot
of
action,
that's
dependent
on
this
timeline
of
redistricting.
F
I
will
say-
and
that's
fine,
then
that
there
is
a
little
bit
of
a
silver
lining
with
this
delays,
and
that
is
that
the
bureau
does
have
more
time
to
work
on
its
data
quality
stuff.
So
maybe
that's
good
and
it
is
possible
for
your
estate
if
you
choose
to
to
maybe
draw
some
preliminary
maps
with
other
data,
like
your
state,
demographer
probably
knows
where
growth
is
taking
place
and
therefore
districts
would
get
geographically
smaller
so
that
you
would
keep
the
same
number
of
people
in
each.
F
So
if
that
helps
you
at
all
to
do
some
preliminary
maps,
that's
possible
and
then
also
this
time
period
before
the
data
lands
is
an
opportunity
to
find
out
what
the
public's
interests
are
and
do
public
hearings
that
kind
of
thing
about
what
do
they
think
are
their
communities
of
interest.
Okay,
so,
on
the
side
we've
got
now,
kentucky
fits
in
the
largest
circle
over
there
on
the
right.
F
I
think
you
could
count
yourselves
as
lucky
that
you
don't
have
a
deadline
for
say
june
30th,
which
is
the
deadline
that
illinois
was
working
with
to
create
its
maps,
and
so
in
fact
I
think
it's
not
so
much
your
constitutional
deadlines
as
it
is
you're
filing
the
opening
of
your
filing
date
that
that
matters
all
right
and
ben.
I
think
we
can
skip
that
one
and
I'll
just
work
off
of
the
next
slide
yeah.
So
how
are
states
addressing
these
delays?
F
Do
your
public
hearings
that
that
would
be
a
thing
that
you
could
be
doing
now,
but
in
some
states
that
have
those
harder
deadlines,
you
can
go
to
the
courts
and
ask
for
relief,
and
we
have
three
states
that
have
done
that.
If,
if
the
constitution
says
you
have
to
have
the
data
done
by
june,
30th,
that's
pretty
much
impossible.
If
the
data
hasn't
arrived,
so
those
states
have
asked
preemptively
for
relief.
F
You
can
also
change
the
legal
deadline,
move
it
outward
whether
for
this
decade
or
for
all
decades
yet
to
come,
you
could
alter
election
dates.
North
carolina
actually
moved
its
spring
local
elections
and
it
runs
them
in
the
springtime
there.
They
are
the
municipal
ones,
but
they
just
said
well
we're
going
to
just
do
that
later,
so
that
we
get
a
chance
to
complete
redistricting
and
completely
precincting
and
then
we'll
be
ready
for
that.
Wisconsin
might
do
the
same
thing
and
then
there's
a
process
that
ben
called
the
two
step.
F
Oklahoma
chose
to
do
this,
I'm
not
sure
if
he
was
thinking
of
oklahoma,
as
he
was
thinking
of
two-step
dance
or
not,
but
perhaps
what
they
did
was
they
chose
to
use.
They
had
one
of
those
early
deadlines,
so
they
used
american
community
survey,
data
which
comes
from
the
census
bureau,
but
is
not
one
of
the
same
as
the
decennial
census
data,
the
acs
data.
F
It
looks
over
five
years
and
makes
a
estimate
of
the
data
based
on
a
five-year
survey,
and
then
they
adopted
their
legislative
maps
with
that
and
now
illinois
has
done
the
same
thing
as
well.
So
arkansas
and
indiana
have
extended
their
official
session
2021
session
because
they're
supposed
to
do
their
redistricting
during
that
session,
so
instead
of
gaveling
out
they're
just
going
to
keep
it
open
until
they
get
to
it,
and
then
some
states
are
looking
at
special
sessions
and
I'm
guessing
that
you
might
be
thinking
about
that
as
well.
F
That
I
and
I
look
forward
to
hearing
more
about
whether
that's
exactly
right
or
not,
then
I've
got
just
two
more
slides
for
you
about
the
census.
One
is
about
census
quality
and
there
are
a
whole
lot
of
pieces
that
go
into
quality.
F
The
one
I
want
to
mention
is
that
there
are
people
who
think
that
there
was
an
undercount
this
year
because
they
were
trying
to
count
people
during
the
pandemic.
There
was
certainly
a
question
about
where
students
were
being
counted.
Were
they
counted
at
the
university
or
were
they
counted
at
their
house?
Were
they
counted
twice
or
were
they
missed
altogether?
F
So
that's
a
data
quality
question
yet
to
come,
and
then
there's
this
other
one
about
this
system
being
used
by
the
census
bureau
this
time
to
protect
private
information
and
that's
causing
a
push-pull,
I
guess
you'd
say
between
data
accuracy
and
usability
and
in
fact
that
leads
us
to
the
lawsuits
that
we're
already
seeing
this
year.
It's
not
the
least
bit
uncommon
for
the
census
bureau
to
be
sued
and
it's
been
sued
twice
already
in
2021
about
the
delays.
F
The
ohio
case
was
just
specifically
about
the
delays
and-
and
it's
in
the
rear
view
mirror
at
this
point
in
alabama,
though
a
case
is
still
in
front
of
a
three-judge
federal
court.
When
any
day
now
I
was
actually
hoping
we
would
have
the
information
to
share
with
you
we'll
get
an
answer
about
it.
F
The
reason
it
matters
to
kentucky
what
goes
on
in
alabama
is
that
the
case
is
being
was
brought
forward
because
not
just
the
delays,
but
because
of
the
question
about
the
accuracy
of
the
data
that
the
census
bureau
will
be
able
to
produce
because
of
its
system
for
protecting
privacy
this
year,
which
is
different
than
it's
used
in
previous
years.
F
So
that's
just
a
lot
of
uncertainty
yet
to
come,
although
maybe
it'll
be
determined
literally,
we
look
at
the
work
docket
every
day
and
see
if
there's
any
news
on
that
that
front
and
then
in
illinois
I
mentioned
earlier
that
they
chose
to
use
the
american
community
survey
data
and
they
have
been
sued
by
two
different
groups
over
their
choice.
To
do
that,
so
we
will
see
whether
that
alternative
data
set
is
appropriate
for
illinois.
State
courts
were
redistricting
there.
F
A
Yes,
thank
you
so
much.
I
do
think
this
is
a
good
time
to
take
questions.
Senator
thayer
has
one
thing
to
add:
maybe
a
correction.
D
Thank
you,
mr
chairman.
Thank
you
wendy
for
that
excellent
overview.
I
just
want
to
make
one
correction.
Our
filing
deadline
is
the
first
friday
after
the
first
tuesday.
D
But
while
we're
on
that
topic,
mr
chairman,
I
want
to
point
out
that
if
we
want
to
get
this
right
for
the
constituents
who
we
represent
and
we
want
to
stay
in
conformity
with
the
spirit
and
letter
of
the
14th
amendment
to
the
constitution,
which
is
one
person,
one
vote,
we're
going
to
need
a
special
session
during
the
fourth
quarter
of
this
year,
because
if
we
don't
and
and
we've
already
and
I'll
do
it
again
today,
we've
already
started
to
inform
governor
beshear
that
we're
going
to
need
a
special
session
because
of
the
delays
in
the
census
data
due
to
kovid
we're
we're
going
to
have
to
come
in
in
january
on
january,
4th
and
we're
gonna
have
to
move
the
filing
deadline.
D
Now,
remember
recently,
we
moved
the
filing
deadline
up
from
late
in
january
to
early
january.
We
all
know
the
reason
we
did
that
under
previous
party
control
of
the
house
of
representatives.
There
was
a
lack
of
interest
in
passing
bills
during
january
until
the
filing
deadline
occurred
and
people
knew
who
their
opponents
were
or
if
they
were
going
to
have
an
opponent,
etc.
D
D
And
we
have
three
maps
to
pass
congressional
districts,
house,
districts
and
senate
districts.
And
you
know
one
one
would
think
we
could
be
ready
to
go
with
agreed
upon
maps
by
the
first
of
january.
But
it's
still
going
to
take
a
little
time
and
then
you've
got
to
pass
the
maps.
Wait
and
see
if
the
governor
signs
or
vetoes
them.
D
If
he
vetoes
them,
then
we're
going
to
have
to
take
the
time
to
override
the
veto
and
then
you're
going
to
have
to
give
people
a
few
weeks,
at
least
to
digest
the
new
districts
to
figure
out
what
district
they
live
in
there
there's
going
to
be
some
changes,
everybody
needs
to
understand.
We
have
again,
we
don't
have
the
the
county
or
precinct
level
data
yet,
but
we
know
from
census
trends
and
estimates
that
there
is
a
huge
population
shift
occurring
in
this
commonwealth.
D
People
are
moving
out
of
eastern
kentucky
and
out
in
west
out
of
western
kentucky
and
they're
moving
generally
into
the
golden
triangle:
lexington
louisville,
northern
kentucky,
but
but
also
more
generally
speaking,
between
the
interstates,
also
bowling
green
has
seen.
Growth
and
owensboro
has
seen
growth.
That's
the
one
place
outside
of
in
between
I-65
and
I-75
that
we're
seeing
growth.
D
So
we're
going
to
have
some
really
tough
decisions
to
make
these
maps
in
eastern
and
western
kentucky
are
going
to
look
differently,
they're
going
to
be
fewer
districts,
fewer
senate
districts
and
fewer
house
districts
in
eastern
and
western
kentucky.
So
we
might
as
well
get
that
out
there
and
on
the
record
as
early
as
possible
and
we're
here
in
june,
and
that's
that's
about
as
early
as
we
can.
Mr
chairman-
and
I
appreciate
you
putting
this
on
the
topic
right
out
of
the
starting
gate
in
in
the
interim.
D
So
keep
keep
that
in
mind,
candidates
which
would
be
all
of
our
congressional
districts,
all
of
our
house
districts
and
the
even
numbered
senate
districts
can
begin
filing
for
office
in
early
november.
But
we're
not
going
to
know
the
districts
then,
unless
the
governor
calls
us
into
a
special
session.
So
once
we
get
these
data
dumps
from
the
u.s
census
bureau
and
we
know
the
precincts
and
we
know
the
county
population,
then
each
chamber
can
begin
working
on
its
map
and
we
can
also
start
working
on
a
congressional
map.
D
D
Yeah
representative
up
church,
that's
it
as
far
as
those
in
the
room.
Today
I
had
the
representative
bratcher
a
lot
more
house
members
who
who
have
been
through
a
redistricting.
I
actually
had
the
honor
of
chairing
this
committee,
the
last
time
we
did
redistricting
and
it's
a
pretty
stressful
process,
so
get
ready
a
couple
of
things
that
I
think
would
be
helpful
for
people
to
know.
D
According
to
federal
law,
we
have
to
draw
the
six
congressional
districts
to
exact
no
deviation.
Population
and
and
counties
can
be
split
with
impunity.
In
order
to
get
to
that
number.
So
no
deviation
in
in
those
numbers
in
the
senate,
we
can
split
counties
only
if
the
counties
have
more
population
than
a
senate
district.
So
it
looks
like
the
mean
senate
district
is
going
to
be
about
118
000.
D
According
to
case
law,
we
can
go
up
or
down
5
percent,
so
we
in
the
last
redistricting
week
we
were
able
to
split
jefferson,
kenton
and
fayette.
It
appears
based
on
population
trends,
we're
going
to
be
able
to
split
five
counties.
You
can
add
warren
and
boone
to
that
mix
and
that's
based
on
u.s
census
data
population
estimates
from
2019.
D
in
the
house.
I
think
you
can
split
counties
is,
but
it
has
to
be
according
to
certain
constitutional
and
statutory.
You
can't
do
it
with
impunity,
but
you
can.
Obviously,
if
you
look
at
the
current
districts
that
was
that
were
drawn
under
the
previous
party's
control
of
the
house.
There
are
some
pretty
unique
lines
that
you
all
are
familiar
with
and
those
stood
up
to
judicial
scrutiny.
D
So
just
a
few
kentucky
specific
things
that
we're
going
to
have
to
look
at,
but
I
think
the
most
important
takeaway
is.
Hopefully
we
get
these
numbers
in
september
and
we
can
start
working
on
the
maps
and
and
we're
going
to
need
governor
beshear
to
call
us
into
a
special
session
in
the
fourth
quarter
of
2021.
D
A
Very
good,
thank
you.
Senator
thayer,
senator
alvarado
has
a
introduction
of
a
special
guest
and
a
question.
Thank.
G
You,
mr
chairman,
just
an
extra
introduction
of
the
guest
for
those
of
you
who
don't
know
mick
bullock
he's
in
the
back
of
the
room
here
today.
So
I
know
we've
got
miss
underhill
and
mr
williams
presenting
remotely
but
mick
is
here
in
our
presence
today
he's
the
director
of
public
affairs
for
ncsl
and
if
you
haven't
gotten
to
know
him,
I
would
encourage
you
to
get
to
know
him
he's
become
a
good
friend
and
I've
had
the
privilege
of
serving
on
the
executive
committee
friend
csl
these
past
two.
G
Three
years
now
we
are
looking
forward
to
hosting,
I
think
the
legislative
summit
in
2024
in
louisville,
so
we've
managed
to
be
able
to
land
that
so
there's
going
to
be
a
lot
of
work
ahead
for
us
to
put
our
best
foot
forward.
As
always,
and
in
kentucky
we
always
do
that.
I
think
people
come
and
visit
our
state
and
always
want
to
come
back.
G
So
we're
looking
forward
to
hosting
things
in
louisville
in
the
near
future,
but
again
encourage
all
of
you
to
if
you're,
not
if
you
haven't
tested
the
waters,
then
csl
as
far
as
membership
attending
the
summits
talking
to
the
folks
that
are
in
denver
or
in
dc
they're
here
to
serve
us
people
on
both
sides
of
the
aisle
they're,
really
great
resources
for
work
of
what
other
states
are
doing.
G
If
you
have
legislation
that
you're
considering
it's
a
it's
a
shameless
plug,
mr
mr
chairman,
but
I
do
it
for
I
think
they're
a
great
organization.
So
thank
you
for
your
indulgence
on
that,
and
thank
you
make
for
being
here
today.
E
E
She's
she's,
great
and
she's
always
got
great
answers
when
we
come
up
with
some
goofy
questions
and
I've
got
a
goofy
question
now,
so
this
might
not
be
too
goofy,
but
you
said
that
differential
privacy
is
is
under
the
courts
in
alabama
and
if
something
happens
with
with
differential
privacy,
then
it
could
delay
it
three
or
four
more
months.
E
F
Mr
chairman
and
representative
ratcher,
thanks
for
that
question,
and
I
would
have
said
that
I
was
learning
under
you
during
these
last
two
years.
I
have
a
story
that
you
shared
with
me
in
providence
that
I've
used
a
number
of
times.
So,
as
for
the
differential
privacy,
there
is
a
federal
law
that
requires
that
the
respondent's
information
is
kept.
Private,
that's
been
the
law
of
the
land
for
many
decades.
I
want
to
say
five
or
more
decades.
F
The
way
the
census
bureau
has
approached
that
privacy
question
has
changed
over
the
course
of
the
decades.
They
keep
looking
for
a
better
system
in
2010.
They
used
something
called
swapping.
So
if
you
had
a
very
small
census
block
that
only
had
three
people
in
it,
you
could
identify
them
too
easily.
So
they'd
swap
the
racial
and
age
characteristics
of
those
three
people
to
a
different
block
somewhere
else
in
the
state.
So
the
state
numbers
would
work
out
the
same
and
you'd
still
see
three
people
in
that
census
block
they
just
wouldn't
be.
F
You
might
say
the
same
three
people,
so
the
census
bureau
has
been
always
looking
ahead
and
working
on
on
privacy,
and
they
realized
that
if
you
used
big
data,
people
who
are
capable
of
managing
major
data
sets-
and
you
took
all
of
the
many
reports
that
the
census
bureau
produces.
You
could
overlay
them
on
each
other
and
you
could
begin
to
identify
more
people
in
the
nation
than
they
felt
was
in
alignment
with
the
federal
law.
F
I
think
we're
going
to
start
to
hear
about
it
more
because
data
privacy
is
a
major
concern,
of
course,
but
applying
it
here
has
some
people's
feathers,
ruffled
and
concerns
about
the
accuracy,
because
anything
you
do
to
inject
noise,
which
is
the
official
differential
privacy
term,
reduces
the
accuracy.
F
So,
instead
of
swapping
three
for
three
they're
gonna
just
make,
maybe
that
three
that
census
block
with
three
people
in
it
maybe
it'll-
have
15
people
in
it
and
another
might
end
up
being
a
zero
and
it
all
works
out
at
the
end
at
the
state
population
level.
But
that's
not
good
enough,
of
course,
for
a
redistricter
and-
and
it's
a
very
much
a
hot
question
amongst
people
in
the
redistricting
world,
whether
what
will
be
provided
will
be
satisfactory
for
the
use
case
of
redistricting.
F
So
that's
why
this
this
lawsuit
was
filed.
The
plaintiff
said
what
you're
about
to
give
us
is
not
going
to
be
accurate
enough,
and
I
think
the
mathematicians
can
have
their
own
opinions.
Some
go
one
way,
some
go
another.
What
I
hear
from
redistricters
around
the
nation,
there
are
many
reports
on
what
the
data
would
look
like
if
it
were
treated
with
differential
privacy
and
I'm
happy
to
share
all
of
that
with
you.
F
We
have
a
web
page
called
differential
privacy
explained
and
at
the
bottom
there's
lots
of
the
reports
that
various
states
have
produced.
F
It
seems
to
me,
though,
that
what
matters
is
the
outcome
of
that
case
and
whoever
is
victorious
at
that
level.
It's
going
to
get
appealed
and
it
does
go
straight
to
the
supreme
court,
so
I
don't
want
to
necessarily
say
that
this
is
going
to
be
just
as
much
of
a
mess
as
what
we've
already
experienced.
I
I
I
think
it's
possible
that
there
will
be
some
things
that
we
just
can't
foresee.
I
just
wanted
to
highlight
it
as
a
thing
that
could
cause
us
future
hiccups.
I
I
hope
that
was
helpful.
E
Yes,
it
was,
if
you
don't
mind,
mr
chair
one
more,
there
was
something
I
read
that
the
census-
and
I
don't
know
if
you
can
answer
this
wendy,
but
the
census
came
out
with
some
data
and
some
some
states
say
like
I
think
california
was
going
to
lose
two
districts
instead
of
one
they
they
balked
at
that
and
the
census
revised
it
and
come
back
out.
Can
you
speak
shortly
on
that
or
do
you
know
anything
about
that
and
that's
my
last
question.
F
Thank
you,
mr
chair
and
representative.
I
I
have
not
heard
that
and
I
questioned
that
the
census
bureau
has
put
out
just
one
set
of
data
so
far,
and
that
is
the
state
population.
It
is
fair
to
say,
though,
and
I
think
this
is
where
the
confusion
would
come
in-
I'm
now
realizing
over
the
course
of
the
last
several
years.
Various
groups,
including.
F
Major
data
managing
type
groups
have
been
putting
out
estimates
of
what
they
think
would
be.
The
number
of
losses
and
gains
in
the
various
states
in
california
was
looking
like
it
could
lose
two
seats
and
new
york
was
looking
like
it
could
lose.
Two
seats
and
texas
was
looking
like
it
could
gain
three,
but
all
of
those
were
estimates
based
on
that
american
community
survey,
taking
the
2010
data
and
moving
forward
with
it
with
the
acs
data.
So
no
one
ever
promised
that
those
estimates
were
going
to
be
the
exact
right
data.
F
So
then,
when
they
did
come
out,
they
got
the
results.
Some
people
were
surprised,
new
york
lost
one.
They
were.
They
were
actually
not
that
happy
about
it
because
they
lost
even
that
one
by
something
like
89
people
and
they
thought.
Surely
the
census
bureau
could
have
turned
up
89
more
people,
but
they
could
have
been
happy
because
previously
it
was
believed
that
they
were
going
to
lose
two
seats.
A
Okay,
we
have
one
more
quick
question.
Representative
flood
is
remote
representative
flood.
Thank
you
so
much
yes,
miss
underhill.
My
question
is
given.
B
Heard
you
mention
that
it's
a
critical
component,
or
I
should
say
a
component
that
you've
put
forth.
What
would
be
your
case
for
why
it
would
matter
for
us
to
do.
F
That
now
you
said
this
might
be
a
period
of
time
when
we
could
be
doing
it.
What
would
you
say
to
that?
Mr
chair
representative
flood?
I
I
will
say
that,
generally
speaking,
just
putting
all
50
states
in
a
bucket
holding
public
hearings
is
common
practice.
F
Whether
kentucky
needs
to
do
it
or
not,
is
strictly
a
decision
to
be
made
in
kentucky
in
2000,
let's
say
apparently-
and
I
wasn't
in
the
business
of
the
census
or
redistricting
at
that
point,
so
I'm
I'm
going
on
what
my
boss
tim
story,
our
who's.
Now
our
executive
director
had
said
the
public
wasn't
engaged.
This
was
a
thing
that
people
who
were
politically
active
did
then
in
2010
there
began
began
to
be
more
public
interest
and
more
articles
written
more
presentations,
given
about
how
the
public
should
engage
on
redistricting
and
throughout
2010.
F
To
now
it's
been
a
steady
flood.
Oh
yeah,
I
didn't
mean
that
I
mean
just.
The
word
is
a
normal
word
there
of
of
calls
for
public
hearings,
and
so
a
number
of
states
do
have
it
built
in
that
it
is
in
their
constitution
that
or
in
the
guidelines
that
their
committee
adopts
for
doing
redistricting,
and
that
could
easily
mean
like
in
wyoming.
It
means
holding
something
like
six
hearings
in
six
parts
of
the
state
to
hear
what
people
have
to
say.
F
It
might
still
be
something
to
consider
if
you
feel,
as
though
there's
a
brown
swell
of
interest
on
the
part
of
the
public,
in
how
this
process
takes
place
and
in
a
way
that
then
you
you,
instead
of
them
saying
you
made
those
critically
important
political
decisions
behind
closed
doors.
You
can
say
we
invited
in
your
voices
so
strictly
up
to
you
all.
A
Very
good
representative
nemas
has
a
question.
Thank
you.
C
Mr
chairman,
I
would
also
note
and
add
to
my
friend
senator
thayer's
comment
that
there's
another
set
of
maps
to
be
drawn,
and
that
is
judicial.
Redistricting,
the
supreme
court
and
court
of
appeals
in
kentucky
their
districts
have
not
been
redrawn
in
over
three
decades.
There
are
two
districts
with
over
650
000
people,
and
there
are
two
of
the
seven
and
there
are
two
of
the
seven
that
are
that
are
more
than
200
000
people
less
than
that.
C
So
we
have
to
do
the
appellate
districts
for
judicial,
the
judicial
lines
as
well,
and
then
also
as
my
my
friend
representative
johnson,
has
led
on.
Let
the
effort
on
this.
We
have
trial
court
redistricting.
That
needs
to
happen.
I
know,
there's
a
family,
judge
and
davis
khan
needs
to
happen
and
and
he's
a
we
need,
and
then
a
few
others,
one
in
in
in
in
representative
smith's
area
as
well,
so
judicial
districting
needs
that
needs
to
occur.
C
I
would
note
leader
thayer
that
a
lot
of
people
weren't
in
this
room
in
redistricting
last
time,
but
I
was
the
lawyer
for
the
house
republicans
when
we
had
the
the
2012
maps
thrown
out
because
they
were
wildly
unconstitutional
and
stretched
everything
possible
to
to
clinch
on
to
the
majority
that
was
then
in
existence.
C
So
the
kentucky
supreme
court
knocked
that
out
in
an
unprecedented
decided,
an
hour
after
the
oral
argument.
Even
it
was,
those
maps
were
so
bad,
and
so
some
of
us
have
experience
that
we're
not
here
as
well.
On
to
my
my
point
and
I
have
a
question
for
miss
underhill
community
involvement,
as
representative
flood
said,
is
very
vitally
important.
I've
met
with
legal
women
voters
a
few
times
and
I'm
happy
that
they're
making
a
contribution
here,
a
very
good
effort.
C
They
have
released
maps
that
I
think
are
very
thoughtful
and
so,
and
so
I'm
happy
that
league
women
voters
is
involved,
and
I
call
on
the
rest
of
the
community
to
get
involved
in
this.
This
is
is
really
important.
It
may
not
be
as
interesting
as
what
a
lot
of
policy
is,
but
it
may
be
drier,
but
it
is
very,
very
important.
My
question
miss
underhill
is
this
to
a
lot
of
us,
I'm
talking
to
most
members
of
the
majority.
C
Racial
diversity
is
extremely
important
to
us
and
we
believe
that
we
should
have
in
the
past
had
more
minority
majority
districts.
There
certainly
could
have
been
an
additional
additional
one
in
louisville
and
we
would
like
to
maximize
the
minority
majority
districts
if
possible.
So
if
you
could
comment
on
that,
what
exactly
does
that
mean
under
the
law
and
are
there
any
best
practices
to
to
ensure
that
we
have
as
many
minority
majority
districts
as
we
can
have
in
kentucky
miss
underhill.
F
Mr
chairman
and
representative,
I
would
like
to
ask
ben
williams
to
address
that
if
he
can
come
on
and
do
that,
I
can
ben.
Are
you
there.
H
Yes,
I
am,
I
am,
thank
you
wendy,
mr
chairman
representative,
thank
you.
So
I
this
is
in
my
slides
in
a
in
the
second
half
of
the
presentation
but
happy
to
address
this.
Now.
H
The
the
current
law
states
that
the
voting
rights
act
does
require
that,
in
this
particular
circumstances
that
are
delineated
in
a
couple
of
cases
that
were
decided
in
the
1980s
and
further
elaborated
in
the
2000s,
that,
if
section
2
of
the
voting
rights
act
which
protects
the
rights
of
racial,
ethnic
and
lingual
minorities
to
representation
and
representative
bodies,
if
it
applies
a
district
must
be
drawn
in
that
particular
circumstance.
H
If
the
voting
rights
act
does
not
compel
the
creation
of
that
majority
minority
district,
then
the
14th
amendment
of
the
constitution,
which
prohibits
racial
gerrymandering,
would
prohibit
the
creation
of
any
district
in
which
race
is
the
predominant
factor.
So
predominant
is
a
squishy
term.
The
supreme
court
is
acknowledged
in
the
past
that
it's
a
squishy
term.
I
mean
it
just
means
50,
plus
one.
This
is
a
qualitative
analysis.
How
do
you
determine
when
something
is
50
plus
one
and
when
it
isn't
and
that's
a
judicial
fact-finding
mission
that
happens
at
trial
courts?
H
So
as
long
as
the
voting
rights
act
compels
a
legislature
or
commission
to
draw
a
district
to
empower
a
minority
group
to
be
able
to
elect
as
candidate
of
choice,
then
it
then
should
be
drawn
to
avoid
legal
liability,
which
I
realize
representative
is
not
a
direct
way
of
answering
your
question
and
the
only
reason
I
say
that
is
because
I
haven't
seen
the
analysis
done
in
your
state
of
the
racially
polarized
voting.
H
Under
the
thorn
burpee
jingles
case,
to
see
which
districts
and
which
areas
of
the
state
would
require
that,
I'm
sure
that
you
have
legislative
council
and
potentially
a
demographer
in
your
state
who
has
looked
at
this
and
and
could
tell
you
based
on
their
preliminary
analysis.
This
is
what
we,
the
areas
in
the
state
in
which
we
think
districts
under
the
voting
rights
act
may
be
necessary.
A
Okay,
one
summarizing
comment
from
senator
thayer.
D
Well,
it
might
I'm
gonna
summarize,
but
it
might
not
just
be
one
kind.
Okay,
there
you
go,
I
mean,
do
you
know
me,
mr
chairman,
I
do
a
couple
of
things
I
I
I
am
obliged
to
point
out
that
senator
mcgarvey,
who
is
participating
via
zoom
today,
wanted
me
to
point
out
that
he
was
here
the
last
time
we
did
redistricting
and
everybody
knows
my
affection,
both
personal
and
political,
for
leader
mcgarvey,
and
I
would
never
want
to
leave
him
out
in
any
way
whatsoever.
D
Also,
I
want
to
endorse
what
my
colleague,
representative
nemes
said.
I
fully
support
once
and
for
all
finally
doing
judicial
redistricting
next
year.
This
is
something
that
we've
talked
about:
doing
we've
seen
maps
we've
passed
bills
in
one
chamber
and
not
the
other.
It's
time
it's
time
and
and
there
are
going
to
be
some
massive
changes
made
to
that
map
as
well.
D
I
also
want
to
point
out
that
the
illegal
map
referenced
by
representative
nemes
when
he
was
a
citizen
lawyer.
It
was
the
house
map
that
was
thrown
out,
not
the
senate
map,
and
I
also
want
to
point
out
that
the
first
governor
bashir
called
us
into
a
special
session
for
redistricting
after
a
legal
case
took
place,
and
it
is
my
hope
that
we
do
not
require
judicial
action
or
a
legal
case
for
the
second
governor
bashir
to
call
us
into
a
special
session.
D
We
will
know
when
the
time
is
right
and
make
that
request
of
him,
and
it
is
my
hope
that
this
governor
beshear
will
also
call
us
in
to
a
special
session,
and
I
also
want
to
remind
as
a
follow-up
to
representative
nemes's
comment
that
certainly
just
like
any
bill
and
the
redistricting
maps
are
their
bills.
They
are
legislative
bills
or,
as
people
like
to
call
them
pieces
of
legislation
which
I
don't
like
they
are
bills
and
just
like
every
other
bill.
D
Public
comment
is
warranted
and
expected,
but
I
want
to
remind
everyone
that
in
kentucky
the
maps
are
drawn
by
the
general
assembly.
A
About
that
very
good,
thank
you
senator
thayer,
and
I
will
mention
that
judicial
redistricting
is
on
our
planning
for
interim,
so
we'll
have
a
chance
to
visit
that,
hopefully,
during
an
interim
meeting,
so
with
that
we'll
move
on
to
the
second
part
of
our
meeting
today,
mr
williams,
with
ncsl,
we'll
talk
about
redistricting
and
we'll
have
questions
after
that,
mr
williams.
H
Thank
you,
mr
chairman
members
of
the
committee
for
having
me
here.
It's
always
a
pleasure
to
testify
in
the
states
in
front
of
our
members,
but
kentucky
has
special
resonance
for
me
because
I
have
family
in
ashland.
I
grew
up
right
across
the
river
and
huntington
west
virginia.
So
this
is
like
coming
home
to
me
virtually
so
I'm
happy
to
be
here
and
thank
you
for
having
me
so
I'm
just
going
to
run
through
these
principles
fairly
quickly
of
the
law
and
criteria.
H
Senator
thayer
did
an
excellent
job
of
summarizing
a
lot
of
this.
So
for
the
sake
of
time,
I'm
going
to
breeze
through
this
fairly
quickly
so
that
I
can
save
as
much
time
at
the
end
for
questions
as
possible.
H
So,
as
I
was
mentioning
earlier,
racial
gerrymandering
is
one
of
the
key
doctrines
of
federal
law
that
regulates
redistricting.
It's
emerges
from
the
14th
amendment
to
the
us
constitution
under
the
equal
protection
clause.
The
claim
has
evolved
over
time
in
the
1990s.
These
cases,
which
came
primarily
out
of
the
the
south.
They
were
white,
plain
of
suing,
for
lack
of
compliance
with
traditional
redistricting
principles
in
the
2000s.
H
The
cases
sort
of
died
away
because
of
a
case
called
easley
cromartie,
but
they
re-emerged
in
the
2010s,
with
different
plaintiffs,
this
time
and
different
legal
sites,
and
then
in
this
case
it
was
black
plaintiffs
suing
on
vote.
Dilution
claims
that
were
outside
the
scope
of
the
voting
rights
act,
so
the
voting
rights
act
compels
districts
to
be
drawn
in
certain
circumstances,
but
it
doesn't
compel
districts
to
not
be
drawn
in
certain
circumstances,
which
some
theorists
claim
is
a
form
of
vote.
Dilution,
in
which
case
racial
gerrymandering
serves
that
function.
H
Currently
I
will
note
that
racial
gerrymandering
doctrine
has
changed
every
single
decade.
It
has
been
in
existence,
so
there's
no
reason
to
expect
it
to
stay
exactly
the
same
this
decade
either.
But
as
of
this
moment,
this
is
the
law
around
racial
gerrymandering,
and
this
is
a
brief
breakdown
of
the
legal
theory
behind
how
racial
gerrymandering
works.
H
I
I
believe
this
was
submitted
to
all
of
you
for
reviews,
so
I
won't
go
over
this
in
detail,
but
just
know
that
if
you
asked
your
counsel
about
this,
they
would
say
that
this
is
a
slight
oversimplification
of
the
legal
reasoning
that
courts
go
through
when
they're
looking
at
a
racial
gerrymandering
case.
But
it
is
a
good
way
of
envisioning
what
sorts
of
steps
a
judge
will
be
looking
at,
even
if
it
doesn't
include
stuff
like
the
evidence
that
is
used.
H
H
The
other
principle
is
one
person
one
vote
and,
as
senator
thayer
was
mentioning,
you
have
the
different
types
of
deviation
for
congressional
districts.
It's
exact
numerical
equality
for
state
legislative
districts.
It's
a
10
overall
deviation.
I
have
it
listed
as
plus
or
minus
5
here,
but
in
theory,
under
federal
law
you
could
have
a
deviation
for
state
legislative
districts
that
is
plus
three
to
minus
seven.
H
The
other
main
principle
is
section
2
of
the
voting
rights
act.
This
prohibits
vote
dilution
nationwide.
I
was
mentioning
it
earlier.
The
burden
of
proof
is
discriminatory
effect,
not
discriminatory
intent.
Typically,
you
would
you
can
imagine
it
would
be
somewhat
difficult
to
prove
discriminatory
intent
and
something
like
redistricting,
but
that
is
not
a
burden
that
plaintiffs
have
to
overcome
to
succeed
in
one
of
these
cases.
H
H
H
First,
the
minority
group
needs
to
be
sufficiently
large
and
geographically
compact
to
constitute
a
numerical
majority
in
a
particular
area.
Second,
the
minority
group
needs
to
be
politically
cohesive,
so
one
area
where
this
comes
up
sometimes
is
in
south
florida,
where
you
have
different
latino
groups
that
vote
differently.
H
They
may
have
a
sufficiently
large
and
geographically
compact
population
to
constitute
a
majority,
but
they
may
not
be
politically
cohesive
because
you
have
some
voting
for
democrats
and
some
voting
for
republicans,
but
if
they
are
politically
cohesive,
then
the
last
step
is
to
show
that
white
voters
act
as
a
block
to
defeat
the
minority
group's
candidate
of
choice.
Those
last
two.
H
Principles
are
known
as
racial
polarization.
If
the
jingle's
preconditions
are
all
satisfied,
then
the
courts
move
on
to
the
analysis
of
the
senate,
factors
which
are
listed
on
the
screen.
The
senate
factors
are
named,
such
because
they
come
from
the
u.s
senate
committee
report.
That
was
the
1982
reauthorization
of
the
voting
rights
act
as
factors
that
the
senators
wanted
courts
to
look
at
for
when
section
2
should
apply
in
general.
H
H
So
as
of
today,
section
5
and
the
pre-clearance
regime
is
still
the
law
of
the
land
and
it
applies
to
exactly
zero
jurisdictions.
So,
for
all
intents
and
purposes
it
is
no
longer
valid
law.
However,
in
theory,
congress
could
re-enact
section
four
of
the
voting
rights
act,
which
was
the
coverage
formula
and
re-subject
certain
states
to
the
pre-clearance
regime,
and
there
are
bills
currently
in
the
us
congress.
H
That
would
do
that,
although
their
prospects
are
do
not
seem
very
good,
but
it
is
something
I
wanted
to
flag
for
you
so
that
you
could
be
aware
of
if
you
weren't,
already
principle
of
state
law.
If
you
remember,
I
mentioned
a
couple
minutes
ago
that
the
partisan
gerrymandering
cases
were
not
necessarily
dead,
and
that's
because
there
are
these
new
legal
claims
called
free
and
equal
election
cases.
H
So
a
lot
of
state
constitutions
have
these
provisions.
30
states
do,
and
they
essentially
say
that
elections
need
to
be
some
combination
of
free,
equal
and
fair
for
decades.
In
most
states.
These
claims
these
provisions
just
set
dormant.
They
didn't
really
mean
anything
they
weren't
frequently
used
in
cases,
but
in
2018
the
pennsylvania
supreme
court,
which
had
a
clause
that
said
all
elections
shall
be
free
and
equal
very
similar
to
kentucky's
provision.
H
H
A
H
Panel
of
judges
struck
down
that
state's
entire
congressional
redistricting
plan
for
violating
their
state's
free
elections
clause.
That
was
not
appealed
up
to
the
north
carolina
supreme
court
and
it
never
made
it
to
the
u.s
supreme
court,
but
up
until
2018.
This
was
not
a
doctrine
and
redistricting
that
existed
going
into
2021.
There
are
two
states
that
have
interpreted
this
and
there
are
30
state
constitutions
that
could
have
claims
similar
to
the
ones
that
occurred
in
pennsylvania
and
north
carolina.
H
I
don't
flag
this
for
you
to
say
that
this
is
necessarily
how
all
30
states
are
going
to
decide
this
issue
if
a
case
comes
before
them.
Obviously,
if
you're
having
30
different
state
interpretations
of
30
different
state
constitutional
provisions,
you
could
reach
30
different
outcomes,
but
I
am
flagging
it
because
this
is
one
area
that
we
at
ncsl
expect
to
see
significantly
more
litigation
in
this
decade,
and
it
is
the
one
big
new
area
of
law
that
has
emerged.
H
I
was
also
asked
by
council
to
touch
on
a
couple
of
kentucky
specific
cases
for
you.
I
know
that
this
came
up
in
earlier
conversation
about
the
splitting
of
counties
in
kentucky,
so
I
won't
go
into
significant
detail
about
this,
but
in
general
the
kentucky
supreme
court
has
interpreted
section
33
of
your
state
constitution,
which
has
dual
mandates,
that
districts
being
nearly
equal
in
population
without
dividing
any
county.
There
was
a
case
in
1907:
that's
put
more
emphasis
on
the
equal
population
end
of
this
clause.
H
Recently
we
have
shifted
back
through
these
two
cases:
fisheries,
state
board
of
elections
and
legislative
research,
commission
v
fischer
to
emphasize
that
the
splitting
of
counties
and
legislative
redistricting
must
be
minimized
within
the
plus
or
minus
five
percent
range
for
deviation.
So
in
kentucky
under
these
two
cases,
you
can't
do
the
plus
three
minus
seven
have
a
ten
overall
range.
H
You
have
to
have
no
more
than
plus
five
or
minus
five
from
the
ideal
district
population
in
terms
of
principles
now
shifting
to
principles
or
criteria,
as
I
prefer
to
call
them.
The
only
federal
criteria
for
congressional
districts
is
that
they
be
single
member
other
than
that.
It's
entirely
up
to
the
states.
What
to
do
one
of
the
more
common
principles
is
compactness.
It's
a
common,
traditional
redistricting
principle.
H
There
are
a
myriad
of
ways
to
measure
it.
I
believe
there
are
over
40
peer-reviewed
methods
of
calculating
compactness.
At
this
point,
two
of
the
most
common
ones
are
react
and
pulse
b
popper
I've,
given
the
formulas
on
the
left
hand,
side
of
the
screen
and
the
image
on
the
right
hand,
side
of
the
screen.
I've
included
just
to
show
you
that
these
are
the
two
most
popular
compactness
measures
and
in
that
yellow
burnt,
yellow
rectangular
district
pulse
b.
H
Popper
gives
it
a
score
of
0.589
on
a
scale
of
zero
to
one
and
react,
gives
it
a
score
of
0.382
on
a
scale
of
zero
to
one
with
zero,
being
least
compact,
and
one
being
most
compact,
so
just
goes
to
show
you
that
the
particular
compactness
metric,
that's
being
used
at
a
particular
time,
can
have
a
significant
outcome
on
whether
of
determining
whether
or
not
a
district
is
itself
compact,
and
both
of
these
should
be
available
in
your
state's
redistricting
software,
along
with
a
couple
of
the
other,
more
common
methods
of
measuring
this.
H
Another
principle
is
contiguity:
it's
the
occurs
in
all
50
states
for
at
least
legislative
or
congressional
districts
and
the
rule
is,
you
must
be
able
to
go
to
every
part
of
the
district
without
leaving
it
the
only
times
where
this
really
arises.
An
issue
is
when
you
have
non-contiguous
locality
boundaries.
So
if
you
had
a
jurisdiction
that
had
annexed
neighborhoods
that
were
not
contiguous
with
the
rest
of
a
particular
city,
then
that
might
be
an
area
that
could
be
a
problem.
H
If
you
wanted
to
keep
city
boundaries
whole
and
county
boundaries
whole,
maybe
you
have
to
split
one
or
the
other,
and
it
also
arises
with
water.
So
this
is,
as
you
know,
the
kentucky
bend
and
far
southwest
kentucky,
where
you
have
one
part
of
your
state
that
is
wholly
cut
off
and
borders
only
tennessee
by
land
and
missouri
by
water,
and
this
is
just
another
example
of
this
occurs
frequently
in
states
where
water
is
an
issue,
so
in
kentucky.
H
I
would
imagine
that
you
would
just
combine
this
with
the
adjacent
part,
but
that's
just
a
way
to
highlight
that
this
can
become
an
issue
in
certain
cases,
estate
principles.
Preserving
political
subdivisions,
I
don't
really
need
to
go
into
this
because
you
have
a
quite
strict
whole
county
provision
in
kentucky.
G
H
Another
common
principle
is
preserving
communities
of
interest,
it's
codified
in
25
states,
it's
frequently
used
in
others.
Unofficially,
there's
no
agreed
upon
definition.
I've
included
three
examples
for
you.
Alaska
and
missouri
both
have
a
positive
definition,
which
is
to
say
what
a
community
of
interest
is.
California
has
a
negative
definition,
which
is
to
say
they
define
what
a
community
of
interest
is
not
and
then
leave
it
up
to
their
commission
to
determine
what
communities
of
interest
they
will
protect
in
redistricting.
H
H
I've,
given
you
an
example
of
your
neighbor
west
virginia
on
the
left-hand
side,
as
you
can
see,
with
the
red
circle
between
the
2000
map
and
the
2010
map,
the
west
virginia
legislature
moved
one
county
from
one
district
to
another,
and
that
was
their
entirety
of
their
congressional
redistricting.
They
they
set.
H
One
county
from
one
to
the
other
they're,
pretty
close
to
equal
population,
we'll
call
it
a
day.
Some
states
specifically
reject
this.
The
arizona
constitution
actually
requires
that
they
start
a
new
every
single
decade,
so
there's
no
guarantee
that
the
districts
will
look
anything
alike
from
cycle
to
cycle
and
then,
lastly,
there
are
a
few
emerging
principles
that
are
becoming
more
common.
Typically,
these
are
related
to
something
about
partisanship
or
the
political
performance
of
particular
districts.
H
So
17
states
have
a
prohibition
on
favoring
or
disfavoring,
an
incumbent,
candidate
or
party,
that's
sort
of
a
catch-all.
The
exact
wording
among
those
17
does
vary
significantly,
and
it
really
depends
on
the
wording,
what
is
included
and
what
is
excluded
from
the
prohibition.
There
are
five
states
that
have
a
prohibition
on
using
partisan
data.
H
Most
of
them
give
an
exception
for
compliance
with
the
voting
rights
act,
because
if
you
remember
back
the
requirement
that
you
figure
out
whether
or
not
there's
political
polarization
among
different
racial
groups,
obviously
you
would
need
election
results
to
make
that
calculation.
So,
in
all
other
circumstances,
the
states
prohibit
the
use
of
partisan
data,
which
would
be
could
be
defined
as
many
things,
but
most
commonly
it's
defined
as
election
returns
party
registration
information,
the
residence
of
incumbents,
the
residents
of
potential
challengers,
among
other
things.
H
There
are
five
states
now
that
require
their
districts
to
be
competitive,
competitiveness
again
no
agreed
upon
definition.
This
is
a
theme
among
redistricting.
There's
no
agreed
upon
definition
to
anything.
The
two
most
common
definitions
of
competitiveness
are
that
districts
either
should
be
as
close
to
50
50
across
all
districts
as
possible.
H
So
if
you
had
a
state
where
the
political
makeup
and
the
elections
that
are
used
to
calculate
the
competitiveness
formula
are
55
for
one
party
and
45
for
another,
then
all
the
districts
should
be
drawn
as
closely
as
possible
to
be
55
for
one
party
and
45
for
another.
Another
definition
of
competitiveness
that
is
used
is
that
the
maximum
number
of
districts
should
be
drawn
as
close
to
50
50
as
possible,
and
then,
whatever
happens
to
the
rest,
happens
to
the
rest.
H
That
is
the
definition
that's
used
in
arizona
and
arizona
has
had
some
very
swingy
congressional
districts
as
a
result
over
this
decade,
because
there
are
two
or
three
districts
that
were
drawn
to
be
as
closely
divided
between
the
parties
as
possible.
H
The
last
principle
is
proportionality.
You
are
one
of
the
I
think
you're,
the
only
state
the
borders
both
of
the
states,
the
cycle
that
will
be
using
proportionality.
Those
are
missouri
and
ohio
and
proportionality
is
similar
to
that
first
definition
of
competitiveness
that
I
used.
It
says
that
in
general,
the
legislature
should
reflect
the
overall
makeup
of
a
particular
state.
So
looking
at
the
statewide
election
results
that
are
selected
by
the
legislature,
the
or
the
commissions
in
the
case
of
missouri
and
ohio,
the
district
should
be
drawn
to
reflect
the
political
makeup
of
the
state.
H
So,
let's
say
ohio.
If
you
looked
at
the
elections
that
are
chosen
is
53
republican,
47
democrat.
You
would
try
to
draw
a
100
member
legislative
body
to
have
53
republicans
and
47
democrats
just
to
give
you
an
idea
with
that,
their
final
thoughts
about
what
your
committee
can
be
doing
now.
I
know
wendy's
already
touched
on
this
a
little
bit,
so
I'm
not
going
to
go
into
significant
detail
on
it,
but
the
last
thing
I
want
to
mention
is
that
we
do
have
some
resources
for
you.
That
may
be
helpful.
H
The
one
in
the
middle
is
our
redistricting
law
2020
book.
I
think
I've
got
mine
up
here.
Mine's
a
little
beat
up.
Yours
will
look
way
better
when
it
comes
in
the
mail.
I
promise-
and
this
is
an
excellent
resource-
that
if
members
of
the
committee
don't
have,
I
strongly
encourage
you
to
reach
out
to
us
and
we'll
make
sure
to
get
one
shipped
out
to
you.
It's
free
for
all
legislators
and
legislative
staff,
and
we
also
have
a
redistricting
seminar
coming
up.
This
is
our
final
one.
H
In
july,
kentucky
has
been
well
represented
at
several
of
the
previous
ones,
and
I
was
looking
at
the
registration
and
I
see
that
some
folks
are
coming
to
salt
lake
city
as
well.
So
we're
looking
forward
to
having
you
and
with
that.
Mr
chairman,
I
will
turn
it
over
to
you
for
any
questions
and
thanks
for
having
us.
B
I
just
have
a
a
couple
questions
and
I
really
they're
really
related.
So
hopefully
we
can
get
through
this
pretty
quickly.
This
would
be
for
ben.
For
mr
williams,
you
just
talked
about
the
emerging
principles.
Can
you
talk
a
little
bit
about
how
those
principles
have
emerged,
whether
they
have
emerged
from
basically
just
state
law
changes?
B
H
Absolutely,
mr
chairman
representative,
the
they
have
emerged
through
changes
in
state
code
or
state
constitutions.
Some
of
them
have
been
included
as
part
of
shifts
to
commission
systems,
for
example,
colorado.
The
the
state
that
I'm
based
in
the
legislature
sent
a
a
couple
of
commission
bills
to
the
voters
in
2018,
and
we
shifted
to
a
commission
system
here
and
those
bills
they
included.
H
But
they
also
included
new
criteria
as
well,
which
included
a
one
of
these
prohibitions
on
favoring
or
disfavoring,
and
so
that
is
one
area
in
which
they
do
emerge.
Some
of
them
are
quite
old,
though
nebraska
has
had
this
prohibition
for
decades
and
is
used
on
occasion,
so
it
varies
in
how
they
emerge,
but
we
call
them
emerging
just
because
if
you
look
back
through
the
analysis
of
american
history,
you
wouldn't
see
these
until
post
the
baker
versus
car
1960s
redistricting
cases
they
they
tend
to
emerge
from
1970
and
beyond.
B
Okay,
thank
you
very
much
for
that
and
if
I
can
just
one
more
quick
question,
you
know
miss
underhill.
She
shared
with
us
lawsuits
that
that
have
occurred
already
this
cycle
and
I'm
I'm
wondering
if
there
have
been
any
lawsuits
even
preemptive
lawsuits
or
declarations
sought
related
to
the
emerging
free
and
equal
clause
and
state
constitutions
to
to
get
that
that
that
concept
you
know
already
established
as
the
legislature's
redraw
districts.
Have
there
been
any
cases
like
that
that
you're
aware
of.
H
Mr
chairman,
representative
wheatley,
I
am
not
aware
of
any
such
cases.
I
can
imagine
there
might
be
standing
issues
with
proving
the
injury
if
the
districts
haven't
been
drawn
yet,
but
we
will
see
as
these
progress.
H
I
think
that
if
you
look
through
the
litigation
that
has
been
tracked
through
the
2000s
and
2010s
redistricting
is
a
particularly
litigious
area
of
state
law
probably
could
be
the
most
litigious
area
of
state
law
relative
to
the
number
of
bills
passed
per
decade,
and
so
it
is
entirely
possible
that
there
will
be
multiple
cases
filed
this
decade
in
various
states.
But
it's
so
new.
I
mean
only
two
cases
in
the
past
three
years
and
those
were
the
first
two.
It's
I
really
mentioned
it
just
to
highlight.
H
B
Well,
thank
you
for
that
and
yes,
I
I
think
this
is
going
to
be
a
free
and
equal
race
to
the
courts
if
there
are
too
far
a
movement
in
directions
that
don't
appear
to
be
free
and
equal.
Thank
you.
Thank
you
for
the
presentation
representative.
C
Mr
chairman,
I'll
be
quick.
There
are
two
counties,
or
at
least
two
counties
in
kentucky
that
meet
at
a
point
when
we
draw
a
map,
sometimes
they
meet
at
points,
and
I
think
at
least
one
of
these
couplets,
if
you
will
are
going
to
be
implicated
in
redistricting.
So
what
does
federal
law
say
if
anything
about
point
contiguity.
H
Thank
you,
mr
chairman
representatives,
good
to
see
you
again
the
point
contiguity,
there's
not
a
lot
in
federal
law
about
it,
because
there's
no
federal
requirement
that
districts
be
contiguous.
The
only
requirement
of
the
federal
government
is
that
districts
be
single
members.
So
it's
entirely
up
to
your
state's
interpretation
and
there
are
some
states
that
state
courts
that
have
held
that
point
contiguity
is
not
permissible,
but
I'm
not
familiar
with
the
kentucky
law.
A
If
not,
I
have
a
couple
announcements
just
to
make
you
aware
of
before
we
adjourn
on
the
website.
There
is
a
letter
from
the
league
of
women
voters,
that's
been
posted
in
case.
You
want
to
take
a
look
at
that
representative
nemus
mentioned
that
earlier
about
their
concerns
and
they
are
made
available
for
you.
A
Secondly,
in
the
packet
miss
underhill
and
mr
williams's
information
is
in
this
packet.
If
you
have
further
questions,
you
can
email
them
and,
as
they
stated
earlier,
they're
at
at
your
disposal
to
be
of
service
and
then
finally,
we
have
five
for
all
the
new
folks
on
the
committee,
which
there
are
several.
We
have
five,
ladies
and
gentlemen,
that
are
helping
us
in
our
committee.
Lrc
employees
and
I
just
want
to
have
them-
raise
their
hands
real
quick.
So
you
know
who
they
are
alicia
miller
here
is
their
csa.
A
Angela
rhodes,
yeah
she's
she's
out
of
the
room,
miss
peggy,
okay.
This
is
peggy
and
and
then
back
here
in
the
back
of
the
room,
daniel
carter
and
michael
cowan.
They
are
all
here
to
be
of
service
to
you
during
session
and
during
the
interim.
So
if
there
are
not
any
other
questions
we'll
stand
adjourned,
our
next
meeting
will
be
july.
The
20th.