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From YouTube: Senate Standing Committee on Judiciary (2-24-22)
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A
A
Seeing
that
we
have
a
quorum
and
we
are
authorized
to
do
business,
anybody
have
any
guests
in
our
enormous
crowd
this
morning.
They
need
to
recognize
judge
good
to
see
you
again,
thanks
for
being
here,
judge
good
to
see
you
again
both
of
you
anybody
else,
no
all
right
glad
to
have
you
all
all
right,
senator
you're
first,
as
promised.
A
I'm
sorry
we
couldn't
get
to
you
last
week,
but
come
on
up
on
senate
bill
110,
a
bill
members
that
you've
seen
before
and
act
relating
to
air
property
and
making
an
appropriation,
therefore
sponsored
by
our
friend
and
colleague,
reggie
thomas
senator.
You
have
the
floor.
You
or
your
guests
can
introduce
yourselves
and
then
jump
right
on
in.
C
Thank
you
very
much,
mr
chair,
and
it's
good
to
be
before
the
judiciary,
the
judiciary
committee.
This
morning
I
have
several
witnesses
present.
There's
a
mr
ben
orzesky
who's,
the
general
counsel
for
the
uniform
laws
commission
he's
on
online
there
in
chicago.
I
have
mr
david
gambrell
who's,
the
lincoln
county
pva.
C
Both
of
them
will
testify
here
today.
I
have
with
me,
mr
shea
brown
who's
with
the
fayette
county
clerk's
office
and
mr
john
mcgarvey
just
walked
in
and
he'll
say
a
few
words
so.
A
I
want
to
thank,
I
want
to
give
a
special
thanks,
senator
to
you
for
being
patient
and
flexible
last
week,
but
to
your
witnesses,
who
I
know
drove
over
made
time
to
show
up
and
then
sit
through
a
meeting
only
to
not
have
the
bill
called,
and
I'm
sorry
for
that.
But
that's
how
things
often
happen,
and
we
just
ran
out
of
time
with
another
committee
today
shouldn't
be
that
problem
yeah
I'd
like
it
still
to
keep
it
to
about
30
minutes
on
this
bill.
Since
it's
something
we've
seen
before
right,
I
I
think
I.
C
C
I
think
it
should
go
no
longer
than
15
minutes
and
let
me
begin
by
by
setting
the
stage
as
to
the
problem
and
why
this
legislation
is
so
needed
here
in
kentucky.
Okay,
what
we
have
in
this
state
as
a
problem
is
a
it's
a
situation,
and
this
affects
every
area
of
the
state
where
you
have
property
that
was
put
in
the
deed
to
some
descendant
many
years
ago,
and
then
they
died
and
passed
that
on
to
their
families,
no
probate.
No!
C
Will
the
families
just
inherit
the
property
by
intestate
secession,
and
then
those
individuals
die,
and
then
it
goes
on
to
other
heirs
and
before
you,
you
realize
that
mr
chair
and
committee
members,
you
have
situations
where
you've
got
a
piece
of
land,
that's
now
owned
by
well
over
a
hundred
individuals,
in
some
cases,
200
some
cases
even
more
than
that,
and
because
there's
so
many
fractional
interest
in
that
property.
C
The
land
really
has
no
value
you,
no
one's
going
to
buy
a
fractional
interest
in
property,
so
it's
not
really
marketable
title
and
and
so
as
a
result,
the
because
the
land
doesn't
have
any
value.
It's
taxable,
its
taxable
value
is
insignificant
and
the
land
cannot
be
alienated
or
sold,
and
so
it's
just
sitting
there
with
no
real
use.
Okay-
and
you
have
two
options
here
in
kentucky
right
now,
under
chapter
381,
you
have
two
two
options:
one.
C
If
you
want
to
sell
the
property,
you
can
go
into
the
circuit
court
and
request
that
the
property
be
sold
okay,
but
then
you
have
to
try
to
find
all
the
errors
and
and
and
and
that
takes
time
and
then,
if
you
get
enough
people
in
court
so
that
you
can
sell
the
property,
then
that
probably
has
to
be
sold
through
the
master.
Commissioner,
which
means
people
come
to
the
mass
commissioner.
Sale
was
the
auction
highest
bidder,
wins
and
the
property
isn't
sold.
C
You
know,
there's
no
process
to
keep
the
property
in
the
hands
of
family
members.
That's
one
option
the
second
option,
if
you
do
want
family
members
to
acquire
the
property,
then
once
again,
you've
got
to
locate
all
of
those
heirs.
You've
got
to
prepare
what
what
we
attorneys
call
affidavits
of
descent,
which
shows
that
the
the
the
chain
of
title
from
from
one
owner
to
the
other,
and
then
you
got
to
file
those
in
the
courthouse
record,
which
is
extensive.
C
Then,
once
you
do
that,
then
you've
got
to
prepare
several
scores
of
deeds:
okay
and
then,
once
you
get
those
deeds
prepared
for
these
individual
interests
to
someone,
then
at
that
point,
when
you
do
all
of
that
paperwork,
which
takes
an
enormous
amount
of
time,
costs
an
enormous
amount
of
money.
Then
you
can
get
the
property
in
the
hands
of
one
that
heirs.
Okay,
I've
done
this
twice
and-
and
I
will
tell
you
it
is-
it
is
protracted.
C
C
C
110
then
other
family
members
can
come
forward
and
say
I
want
to
buy
the
property
okay
and
then
the
process
set
up
by
which
family
members
who
want
to
keep
the
property
and
buy
it
can
acquire
that
voluntarily
from
other
family
members
and
therefore,
hopefully
put
the
property
in
the
hands
of
one,
maybe
two
buyers,
and
so
now
it's
a
win-win
situation.
You
have
land
that's
marketable
again.
C
It
can
be
alienated
to
to
other
potential
buyers
and
two
its
value
has
increased
because
it's
marketability,
which
means
that
it
provides
more
tax
revenue
for
both
this
state
and
for
the
county
and
that's
the
purpose
of
senate
bill
110
is
to
make
that
process
much
smoother,
much
easier,
so
that
we
can
have
more
marketable
titles
in
this
state.
Have
higher
revenue
in
the
state
and,
most
importantly,
for
my
interest,
keep
the
property
that
was
acquired
over
100
years
ago
in
the
family.
C
At
this
point,
mr
mr
chair,
I
will
stop.
I'm
going
to
turn
it
first
over
to
mr
ben
orzewski,
who
testify
about
senate
bill
110,
because
it's
been
used.
You
know
quite
extensively
and
passed
in
other
states
and
then
I'm
gonna,
let
david
gambrell,
who
has
some
real-life
experience
here
as
a
as
a
pva
in
a
county.
That's
had
this
problem
and
then
I'll
close
with
mr
mcgarvey
ben
go.
E
Thank
you,
chairman
westerfield
members
of
the
committee
appreciate
you
considering
senate
bill
110
today,
which
would
enact
the
uniform
partition
of
airs
property
act
in
kentucky
this.
This
bill
is
based
on
a
uniform
act
that
has
been
adopted
so
far
in
18
states.
There
are
eight
more
states,
including
kentucky
that
have
bills.
E
Pending
this
year,
it's
been
adopted
in
been
gaining
momentum
being
adopted
in
more
states
lately
because
it's
proven
to
work
exactly
as
intended
in
the
early
adopting
states
where
this
this
problem
was
was
seen
and
the
solution
devised
through
this
uniform
act.
E
What
the
uniform
act
does
is.
It
puts
in
place
a
few
simple,
due
process
protections.
First,
if
a
partition
of
airs
property
comes
before
the
court,
the
court
orders
an
independent
appraisal.
The
property
to
find
out
what
its
true
value
is.
Second,
it
has
the
buyout
opportunity
that
senator
thomas
just
described
where
the
heirs
who
want
to
hold
on
to
the
property
can
buy
at
the
share
of
the
person
who's
requesting
a
sale
at
the
appraised
value
of
the
of
that
share.
E
Third,
there's
a
strengthened
if
no
one
exercises
that
buyout
option,
there's
a
strengthened
preference
in
the
law
that
already
exists
in
kentucky
law,
but
it's
this
bill
strength
will
strengthen
it
for
partition
in
kind
or
physical
division
of
the
property
into
separate
parcels.
When
that's
possible,
you
know
it's
not
always
possible
with
a
single-family
home,
but
it
might
be
if
we're
talking
about
farmland
and
then
last,
if
the
property
does
have
to
be
sold,
what
the
bill
says
is,
rather
than
order
a
an
auction
sale
which
is
designed
to
sell
the
property
quickly.
E
We
want
the
property
to
be
listed
on
the
open
market
at
its
appraised
value
for
a
reasonable
period
of
time,
see
if
it
sells
and
try
to
get
the
highest
return
possible
for
the
heirs
on
their
inheritance
in
the
states
where
this
has
been
adopted.
It's
working
as
intended.
E
The
number
of
partition
cases
that
have
that
was
filed
has
gone
down
since
the
the
act
has
been
introduced,
and
the
reason
for
that
is,
there
is
less
incentive
for
an
outside
developer
or
speculator
to
acquire
a
share
of
the
air's
property
and
then
request
partition,
hoping
to
force
an
auction
sale
and
acquire
the
property
for
below
its
its
actual
value.
I'm
happy
to
to
answer
any
questions
from
the
committee
about
the
bill,
but
kentucky
would
be
this
would
be.
E
Kentucky
would
be
in
good
company,
with
many
of
the
states
in
the
region
that
have
adopted
this
and
and
are
considering
it.
Thank
you.
F
Thank
you,
mr
chairman,
and
and
I've
you
know
I
like
the
idea
behind
this
bill.
I've
talked
with
senator
thomas
and
I
guess
some
concept
that
seems
like
I've
run
into
in
the
past.
I
don't
do
a
lot
of
this
work,
but
you
know,
as
a
country
lawyer,
you
run
across
a
little
bit
of
everything
every
once
in
a
while
does
kentucky
to
ensure
that
there's
a
fair
value
of
sale
in
kentucky.
Do
they
not
when
they
when
they
hire
master
commissioners,
it
goes
to
the
courthouse
steps.
C
Right
senator
wheel,
that's
an
excellent
question
and
I
don't
want
to
get
too
legalistic
here,
but
but
your
question
goes
to
to
krs,
426.530.
C
and
you're
right
that
that
does
say
that
if
the
appraised
value
is
not
two-thirds
of
of
the
actual
value,
there
is
a
right
of
redemption
within
a
six-month
period.
Yeah.
However,
I
don't,
I
really
think,
as
a
practical
matter-
that's
not
going
to
occur
here,
because
there
are
appraisers
that
are
hired
in
this
process.
There
are
three
appraisers
and
they
are.
They
are
to
appraise
atlanta,
fair
market
value,
and
I
assume
that
their
fair
market.
G
C
That
they're
going
to
praise
under
the
statute
is
not
going
to
be
less
than
two-thirds
of
the
value,
so
so
the
right
to
answer
your
question.
The
right
of
redemption
still
applies,
but
I
think
the
practical
matter
is
it's
never
going
to
rise
because
whatever
the
property
is
going
to
be
acquired
for
is
going
to
be
more
than
the
two-thirds
of
the
appraised
value,
but
that's
an
excellent
question.
Thank
you,
sir.
G
All
right
good
morning,
I
testified
on
this
last
year,
so
I'm
not
going
to
try
to
rehash
that
senator
wheeler
makes
an
excellent
point
and
that's
the
way
things
should
work.
I
want
to
share
one
of
the
reasons
that
I
feel
like
this
is
crucial.
Something
happened
recently
in
my
county
is
there
was
a
situation
where
there
were
so
many
errors
and
there
was
confusion
about
who
was
going
to
pay
that
tax
bill
and
it
got
bought
by
a
lien
company
and
they
eventually
forced
the
sale.
G
And
I
I
the
warning
order.
Attorney
said
no
heirs
could
be
located
and
this
property
sold
master
commissioner
sale
by
a
speculator
at
about
a
quarter
of
its
value
and
turned
around
and
sold
it
for
about
a
quarter
of
its
value.
As
madison
said,
if
all
men
were
angels,
we'd
have
no
need
of
government,
and
so
this
is
an
example
of
what
is
happening.
I
wish
I
could
say
that
this
was
an
exception,
but
I
have
seen
this
more
than
once,
not
just
in
my
county
but
in
other
counties.
G
I've
seen
this
occur
and
since
the
last
testified,
I've
also
found
out
the
trump
administration
had
actually
directed
fema.
If
I'm
correct
to
start
recognizing
air's
land
as
far
as
fema
recovery,
they
now
they
have
vested
heirs
property
with
the
ability
to
get
female
relief,
which
is
a
major
step
and
the
2018
farm
bill
that
president
trump
signed
into
law
also
has
some
provisions,
that's
addressing
airs
land,
so
there
is
a
a
national
recognition
of
of
how
serious
this
problem
is.
G
In
my
county
we
have
284
properties
when
I
last
testified,
I
said
about
300
and
I've
gotten
a
new
tax
roll
system
that
allows
me
to
more
precisely
research.
These
well
and
I'll.
Also
point
out
senator
thomas.
G
His
great-great-grandfather
purchased
the
land
through
his
joining
bonus
for
the
union
army
and
his
great
great
grandfather
had
a
wheel
but
the
environment
at
the
time
was
it
made
very
difficult.
So
much
of
this
stems
from
inaccessibility
to
the
same
opportunity
to
conduct
business
as
everybody
else,
and
you
know
a
lot
of
poor
whites
in
my
community
have
had
that
because
they
just
don't
have
resources,
they
don't
trust,
and
so
this
has
not
been
this
heirs.
Land
situation
is
not
the
result
of
people
not
taking
care
of
their
business.
G
This
is
the
result
of
people
not
being
afforded
the
opportunity
for
whatever
reason
to
take
care
of
their
business
and
it
rises
to
level
without
some
sort
of
special
help.
We're
going
to
let
that
sit
there
and
it
suppresses
the
press
as
well,
and
it
cost
all
of
us
money
the
prime
example.
G
If
you,
if
you
own
real
estate,
if
you
notice
your
property
tax
bill
for
2021,
you'll
notice,
that
that
state
rate
on
there
was
11.9
cents
and
in
2020
that
was
a
higher
rate,
because
under
house
bill
44
as
values
rise
rates
come
down
well,
so
in
reality,
everyone
who
owns
property
in
kentucky
is
paying
higher
taxes.
Because
of
this
situation
with
ayers
land
because
you're
suppressing
wealth,
you
can't
build
a
new
house.
G
Shea's
cousin
wants
to
restore
the
family
home
that
that
shea
grew
up
in,
but
you
can't
go
to
the
bank
and
borrow
money
on
property
that
was
in
great
great
grandfather's
name,
and
so
all
you
can
do
is
cash
in
hand
repair
that
house.
So
this
is
a
very
real
problem
that
affects
all
over
the
south,
all
over
rural
kentucky
all
over
urban
kentucky.
I've
talked
to
my
counterparts
in
some
urban
areas
and
they
have
the
same
problems,
and
so
I
I
want
to
encourage
you
to
to
pass
this.
H
H
Okay
and
then
just
help
me,
is
this
going
to
flow
like
many,
let's
say
like
a
normal
partition,
action
would
flow
or
a
foreclosure
would
flow
where
the
court
is
involved,
and
then
the
main
agent
of
sale
would
still
be
the
master
commissioner.
It
would
all
kind
of
would
that
would
that
stay
the
same.
C
Master
commissioner,
in
this
instance,
if,
if
the,
if,
if
a
family
member
wants
to
come
forward
and
acquire
the
property,
then
then
the
family
member
will
come
forward,
say
I
want
to
buy
the
property,
and
then
the
court
would
would
make
sure
that
that
sale
takes
place
in
the
orderly
process
in
which
the
money
is
put
in.
The
person
buys
that
property
based
upon
the
fair
market
value
of
the
appraisers,
based
upon
the
fair
market
value
of
the
appraisers.
C
Sorry
about
that,
no
problem
retained
by
the
court
and
then
that
money
would
then
be
dispersed
to
those
willing
sellers
based
upon
their
fractional
interest
divided
by
the
fair
market
value
of
the
property.
So
a
master
commissioner
would
not
be
involved
in
and
that's
that's
critical,
senator
west,
because
again,
the
the
the
biggest
win
out
of
this
is
that
you
are
allowed
to
keep
the
property
in
the
in
the
in
the
family
chain.
The
family
legacy
yeah
and
just.
H
Just
I've
just
been
told
that
I'm
I'm
now
chairman,
so
I
can
recognize
myself.
Okay,
just
to
finish
that
question.
Here's
where
I
was
going
with
this.
So
most
of
this,
this
process
is
handled
within
the
court,
yes,
and
then
the
only
way
you
would
really
reach
a
master.
C
I
I
I'm
going
to
ask
you
this
question:
isn't
it
under
the
process
now
that
any
air,
not
a
ascendant,
a
descendant,
a
collateral
which
is
defined
in
here?
That's
gonna,
have
ownership
strictly
heirs
that
inherited
the
property,
have
a
right
one
person
to
hire
one
lawyer
and
go
and
file
a
civil
suit
in
the
circuit
court
and
no
other
heir.
Can
then
jump
in
and
spend
a
lot
of
money
for
appraisers
commissioners
brokers?
I
That's
all
listed
in
this
bill
and
have
the
property
sold
at
the
courthouse
steps
and
every
air
that
wants
to
can
join
in
and
team
up
so
that
if
80
percent
of
them
join
up,
50
of
them
join
up
the
property
sales
and
they
get
to
buy
and
bid
on
that
property.
Is
that
a
true
scenario
of
the
existing
law.
C
C
Well,
let
me
ask
you
your
question.
First,
I
mean
I
I
want
to
answer
your
question,
I'm
going
to
ask
you
a
question.
Okay,
under
the
current
legal
scenario,
all
of
that
is
true.
You
can
have
someone
who
has
a
fractional
interest
or
his
minor
interest,
come
forward
and
say
I
want
to
sell
my
property.
C
C
The
danger
is
that
you
could
have
someone
a
speculator,
some
other
individual
come
forward
and
say
I'm
going
to
be
the
highest
bidder,
I'm
going
to
buy
that
property
and
I'm
going
to
acquire
that
property
who's,
not
a
family
member
who's,
not
a
descendant
who's,
not
a
heir
of
that
family.
That's
the
reality!
We
live
in
today
here
in
kentucky.
I
C
I'm
using
the
term
heirs,
but
the
difference
between
my
bill
and
again,
the
current
statute.
That's
what
I
articulated
at
the
very
beginning
of
my
discussion
is
that
this
bill
allows
family
members
someone
who's
a
member
of
your
family.
You
know
second
cousin
brother,
you
name
it
to
come
forward
and
say
you
know
I
want
to
I.
If
you
don't
want
this,
I
want
to
keep
this
in
the
family
name.
C
Okay,
and
I
want
to
pay
you
a
fair
market
value
and
the
court's
either
going
to
hire
appraisers
or
they're,
going
to
use
a
broker
to
acquire
the
highest
value
for
that
property.
Okay,
and
if
you
want
to
sell
it,
it's
got
to
be
a
willing
seller.
You
can
sell
it
to
some
family
member
who
wants
to
say.
C
C
If,
for
instance,
you
you,
you
love
the
family,
land,
okay,
you
say
I
really
don't
want
to
sell.
I
want
to
keep
part
of
my
family
land,
this
bill
senate,
one
bill
senate
bill.
110
gives
you
another
option.
It
says
you
can
partition
this
in
kind.
Okay,
if,
if,
if
the
property
and
again
single-family
residencies,
like
mr
orzeski,
say
it
probably
not
going
to
work,
but
this
is,
you
know,
lovely
farmland,
you
know
a
lake
or
a
pond
in
a
beautiful
location,
the
mountainous
region
of
kentucky
or
or
or
part
of
the
western
kentucky
plains.
C
You
can
partition
this
property,
you
know,
and
the
court
would
would
attempt
to
partition
it
so
that
it
wouldn't
affect
the
value
of
the
of
of
the
entire
land.
I
want
to
say
fee,
but
I
want
to
get
too
legalistic
here
and
you
can
partition
this
and
keep
a
portion
of
it.
You
have
that
option
under
senate
bill
110.
I
Isn't
it
true,
under
the
existing
law
that
you're
taking
a
second
cousin
who's,
not
a
true
heir
in
that
property
chain?
No,
aren't
they
they're
not?
Are
they.
C
No,
this
this
bill
deals
solely
with
heirs
people
who
have
fractional
interest
in
this
property.
Now
now,
if
you're
talking
about
someone
who
was
married
to
someone
and
then
they
die,
and
now
their
wife
requires
property
and
through
intestate
secession,
their
wife
has
an
interest.
Yes,
though,
those
individuals
may
not
be
blood
lineage,
but
but
under
this
particular
bill
they
would
still
be
heirs
because
they
acquired
quiet
from
a
spouse
that
that
is
true.
J
D
D
One
of
the
things
senator
turner
mentioned
was
the
ability
of
60
80
heirs
to
get
together
and
go
bid.
I
think
a
lot
of
you
all
know.
I'm
basically
a
bank
lawyer,
60
or
80
hour
heirs
are
going
to
have
trouble
getting
the
financing
put
together
in
order
to
meet
the
payment
requirements
and
a
master
commissioner's
sale.
That's
just
a
practical
matter,
that's
right,
but
I'm
not
going
to
double
up
on
things
that
have
already
been
said.
D
I'd
like
to
tell
you
the
breadth
of
support,
not
geographically
as
ben
or
zesky
has
indicated,
but
some
of
it
from
organizations.
I
have
here
a
letter
from
the
american
bar
association,
section
of
trust
and
estate
and
real
property
supporting
the
act.
The
council
of
state
government
supports
the
act.
The
naacp
supports
the
act.
The
farm
bureau
helped
get
it
enacted
in
illinois
and
mississippi
is
working
on
getting
enacted
in
tennessee.
D
There's
no
liberal
conservative
democrat
republican
angle
on
this.
I
don't
know
of
any
any
prominent
organization
in
the
field
that
doesn't
support
it
and
it's
narrowly
focused
it's
an
opt-in
situation
where
it
applies
only
to
a
partition
action
where
the
property
is
titled
as
tenancy
in
common,
as
at
least
one
co-tenant
who
acquired
the
pro
title
from
a
relative
has
at
least
20
percent
of
the
ownership
interest
traceable
to
a
family
member
and
without
a
written
agreement
governing
partition.
That's
the
only
the
limited
circumstances
in
which
it
applies.
D
The
uniform
partition
of
airs
property
act
gives
a
state's
residents
kentuckians
preference
on
certain
federally
backed
farm
loans.
I
think
that's
something
that
could
benefit
all
can
all
kentuckians
who
own
rural
land.
If
we
enact
this
act
today
again,
I
don't
want
to
repeat
anything.
That's
been
said,
I'll
stop
and
take
any
questions
that
you
might
have.
We
also
have
mr
terney
berry
with
me
today,
who
is
another
uniform
law,
commissioner,
from
kentucky
and
our
expert
in
the
trust
and
estates
area.
If
any
questions
delve
into
that
area.
J
Very
good,
mr
mcgarvey,
are
there
any
other
questions
right,
quick
before
we
close
this
out?
Gentlemen,
any
other
statements
that
you
all
need
to
make
before
we
entertain
a
motion.
Senator
thomas.
Are
you
good,
I'm
good?
Okay,
I
have
a
motion
on
the
bill.
A
second
we
have
a
motion
in
a
second
clerk.
Please
call
the
roll.
A
I
H
I'd
like
to
explain
my
vote
proceed.
Please
I
vote
I
and
I
disagree
with
the
chairman
up.
I,
like
honesty,
prefer
upfront,
that's
how
I
like
knowing
what's
coming
so,
but
I
have
no
ill
intent
and
I
vote
I
in
committee.
Thank
you.
J
J
The
next
bill
that
we
have
on
the
agenda
is
senate
bill
114,
and
this
was
senator
westerfield's
bill
related
to
the
disposition
of
catalytic
converters
and
other
items
containing
metal.
We're
going
to
pass
on
this
bill
due
to
chairman
westerfield's
departure
and,
with
that
being
said,
I'll,
entertain
a
motion
to
adjourn
stand
adjourned.