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A
We
strive
to
start
on
time.
That's
the
reputation
of
this
committee,
so
members
please
be
here
on
time.
We
can
only
get
our
jobs
done
as
if
we're
here
in
a
timely
manner
and
when
we
get
here
on
time,
we
respect
everyone
else's
time.
So
that's
that's
what's
important
because
everyone
is
busy.
A
We
have
some
new
members
which
I'd
like
to
welcome
Senator
Amanda
Mays
Bledsoe.
Welcome.
Where
are
you
there?
You
are
I
also
want
to
welcome
back
Harper
Denise
Harper
Angel.
Where
is
she
here?
Let's
see
she's
here
we
will
go
over
the
rules
or
the
protocols
for
this
session
in
this
committee.
A
A
A
A
A
This
bill
was
heard
during
the
interim
as
all
our
bills
that
we
hear
in
this
committee
are
I
want
to
welcome
Senator
Mike
Wilson
with
his
guests.
This
is
something
he
and
I
have
been
talking
about
for
a
long
time,
and
so
I'm
really
happy
to
see
you
here
and
moving
forward
with
that,
introduce
yourselves
to
the
record
and
proceed
with
your
testimony.
C
Thank
you
Mr
chairman
and
members
of
the
committee.
This
is
a
bill
that
I've
been
working
on
for
a
little
while
here
actually
kind
of
got
introduced
to
small
farm
wineries
in
a
very
different
way.
I
was
a
judge
in
a
barbecue,
cook-off
I.
Guess
it's
called,
and
so
it
was
at
this
small
Farm
Winery.
C
That
was
in
my
district,
which
I
had
never
heard
of
before
and
so
I
went
I'd
participated
and
they
had
all
kinds
of
people
there
at
the
small
Farm
Winery
and
these
folks
were
cooking
and
they
kept
bringing
us
barbecue
until
I
had
barbecue
coming
out
my
ears.
So
I
had
to
be
careful
not
to
eat
too
much,
but
it
was
wonderful.
It
was
supporting
an
organization
called
returning
after
War,
currently
that
barbecue
festival
or
barbecue
cook-off.
C
C
Okay,
it's
located
in
St
Louis.
It
is
the
Jack
Daniels
barbecue
cook-off
that
they
have
there
and
so
I
got
introduced
to
this
man
sitting
to
the
right
of
me,
who
is
Derek
Huff
and
he
is
the
owner
of
the
small
Farm
Winery
Travelers
seller.
That
I
was
at
and
I
found
out
that
we
had
something
in
common.
C
So
but
anyway,
we've
become
good
friends
and
and
I
found
out
that
they
did
not
have
any
distribution,
and
so
that
was
very
concerning
to
me
and
so
at
this
point
I'm
going
to
let
them
go
ahead
and
give
their
testimony
to
you,
and
you
do
have
a
couple
of
forms
that
are
in
your
folder
that
they
will
be
referring
to
so
and
I
think
Brian
Young
on
the
end.
May
be
referring
to
those
in
his
testimony
so
go
ahead
and
introduce
Derek
welcome.
A
E
Yes,
good
morning,
I'm
Brian
Young
I'm,
the
treasurer
on
the
Kentucky
wineries,
Association
I'm,
also
owner
of
1922
house
Vineyards
and
Winery
in
Jasmine
County.
Thank
you.
D
So,
thank
you,
chairman
and
good
morning,
Senators
on
behalf
of
all
small
farm
wineries
across
our
Commonwealth.
We
thank
our
bill
sponsor
Senator
Wilson
and
co-sponsors,
senator
schickel
danine
from
Meyer
and
wheeler
for
recognizing
the
plight
of
Kentucky
small
farm
wineries.
Sb
28
represents
frustrated
small
farm
wineries
across
our
state
for
decades.
Kentucky
wine
has
been
cast
aside
and
ignored
by
Distributors
within
the
Kentucky
three-tier
system
of
alcohol
regulation.
Distributors
exist
for
many
reasons,
one
of
which
is
to
increase
competition
not
eliminated.
D
D
Distributors
are
supposed
to
help
each
other
help
level
the
playing
field
for
smaller
producers,
making
it
possible
to
extend
the
reach
of
their
brand
beyond
the
local
market.
However,
without
access
to
those
Distributors
small
farm
wineries
struggle
to
penetrate
larger
markets
dominated
by
big
name
producers,
Wholesales
will
wholesalers
will
have
you
believe
that
they
are
somehow
the
victims
here
when
in
fact
they
have
created
this
problem?
Wholesalers
in
our
Commonwealth
are
attempting
to
hold
all
the
cards.
We
do
not
possess
the
Deep
Pockets
to
Lobby
here
in
Frankfurt,
of
which
the
multi-million
dollar
Distributors
have.
D
We
know
wholesalers
have
been
beating
down
your
doors
to
fight
this
bill
and
you
deserve
to
make
informed
decisions
based
off
of
all
the
information
in
business
law.
The
term
unconscionable
describes
business
relationship
in
which
one
party
has
zero
bargaining
power,
and
the
other
party
has
all
the
bargaining
power.
This
is
the
unconscionable
situation
we
are
in.
D
Wholesalers
have
freely
admitted
that
their
main
concern
with
this
bill
has
nothing
to
do
with
Kentucky
wine
at
all,
but
rather
has
everything
to
do
with
what
the
craft
liquor,
industry
and
out-of-state
wineries
might
want
to
do
in
case
this
bill
passes.
We
worry
about
what
Kentucky
wine
industry
must
do
to
remain
relevant
specific
to
this.
Wholesalers
have
applied
a
fear
tactic
stating
that
out-of-state
wineries
must
are
or
might
overrun
our
state
to
self-distribute
their
products
Senators.
D
This
position
is
unfounded
and
unsupported
states,
with
1
million
gallon
500
000
gallon
and
250
000
gallon
self-distribution
allowances
have
shared
with
us
that
they
were
not
overrun
in
any
way
by
outside
wineries.
Looking
to
come
in
and
self-distribute
again,
the
wholesaler's
position
is
both
unfounded
and
unsupported.
D
Our
industry,
our
industry,
has
been
stretched
to
a
Breaking
Point
over
the
last
few
years.
As
with
many
businesses,
the
lack
of
parity
in
the
beverage
industry
is
a
continual
reminder
that
the
Kentucky
wine
industry
is
a
second
thought.
That
is
why
we
are
here
today
for
the
majority
of
us,
wholesalers
will
not
move
our
products.
D
We
are
too
small
and
thus
we're
not
profitable
for
them,
and
we
recognize
that.
However,
when
producers
of
Kentucky
wine
cannot
represent
their
products
on
the
shelves
of
retailers,
there
exists
a
bias
in
the
marketplace
for
out-of-state
wines.
Do
you
know
Senators
that
over
99
percent
of
Kentucky
wholesalers
portfolios
consist
of
out-of-state
wines?
That
means
Kentucky.
Wine
makes
up
approximately
half
of
one
percent
of
their
portfolios.
D
Self-Distribution
begins
to
provide
the
ability
for
Kentucky
small
farm
wineries
to
represent
our
products
on
shelves.
Alongside
wines
from
other
states.
Many
surrounding
states
have
long
recognized
the
need
for
craft
beverage
self-distribution.
Our
neighboring
state
Ohio
allows
their
small
farm
wineries
to
self-distribute,
250,
000
gallons
per
license.
Holder
Illinois
also
offers
25
000
gallons.
We
are
asking
to
self-distribute
30,
000
gallons,
and
this
number
represents
six
percent
of
what
we
are
currently
allowed
to
produce.
D
Their
Fear
of
tactics
about
outside
wineries
coming
in
are
unfounded
and
unsupported.
Senators.
Isn't
it
about
time
that
kentuckians
support
kentuckians
and
the
products
produced
in
Kentucky?
The
distribution
problem
in
our
state
is
not
limited
to
just
our
industry.
The
craft
brewing
industry
has
experienced
the
same
lack
of
equal
representation.
This
legislative
body
recognized
the
lack
of
parity
for
microbrewers
and
you
acted.
D
Your
vote
to
benefit
Kentucky
microbreweries
in
2021
has
provided
a
lifeline
to
those
microbreweries
and
has
allowed
them
to
begin
to
thrive.
Small
farm
wineries
need
you
to
act
again.
Kentucky
small
farm
wineries
will
never
thrive
in
our
Commonwealth
until
our
products
are
represented
in
the
marketplace.
D
The
craft
beverage
industry
is
rapidly
changing
and
legislation
must
keep
up
else.
Kentucky
small
farm
wineries
will
be
left
floundering
in
the
wake
of
progress.
Sb
28,
the
allowance
of
small
farm
wineries
to
self-distribute,
six
percent
or
thirty
thousand
gallons
of
their
allowable
production,
represents
kentuckians
supporting
kentuckians.
E
So,
thank
you,
Derek
and
I.
Guess
I've
just
become
the
son
of
Senator
Wilson,
because
it's
Brian
Young,
so
that
no
worries
no
worries
that
so.
In
any
event,
first
and
foremost,
thank
you
for
your
time
this
morning,
on
behalf
of
Kentucky
wineries,
we
certainly
appreciate
that
I
would
also
share
a
Happy
Valentine's
Day
to
you.
Senators
and
I
would
just
simply
propose
if
you're
looking
for
the
ideal,
Valentine's
gift,
Kentucky
wine
represents
a
perfect
opportunity
to
be
able
to
serve
that
purpose.
So
so
thank
you.
E
So
yes,
Brian
Young
I'm,
the
treasurer
of
the
Kentucky
wineries,
Association,
so
I'd
like
to
bring
your
attention
to
there.
There's
a
document.
That's
in
your
in
your
portfolio,
I've
got
a
color
document.
I
can
certainly
put
that
in
your
hands,
but
you'll
see
it's
a
spreadsheet
and
it
kind
of
gives
a
I
think
a
little
clearer
picture
or
kind
of
a
visual.
E
In
terms
of
maybe
what
you
can
see,
the
Kentucky
wineries
are
faced
with
one
of
the
things
I
would
kind
of
bring
your
attention
to,
and
all
this
data
is
simply
pulled
from
either
the
wholesalers
website
themselves
or
the
individual
Distributors
as
well,
so
I'm
simply
pulling
data.
We
pulled
data,
that's
available
online.
E
You
know
readily
available
so,
first
and
foremost
just
to
kind
of
recognize
the
wine
and
spirits
wholesalers
of
Kentucky
they
have
listed
on
their
website.
They
have
three
key
members,
Southern
Republic
in
in
Heidelberg,
and
they
have
associate
members
you'll
see
in
their
associate
members
from
what
we
could
gather.
E
Four
of
those
associate
members
are
simply
based
in
Ohio,
so
36
percent
of
the
wine
and
spirits
wholesalers
of
Kentucky
are
Ohio
distributors
asking
today
to
have
influence
in
a
bill
that
influ
that
has
something
to
do
with
Kentucky
wine.
So
take
that
into
account
as
we
as
we
move
forward.
The
other
element
is
this
is,
if
we
think
about,
if
we
look
at
Kentucky
wine,
history,
I
think
vast
majority
of
you
are
probably
aware
of
Equus
run
and
Equus
run
was
established
in
1998
and
I.
E
Think
that's
a
pretty
good
measure,
a
pretty
good
Mark,
because
that's
25
years
ago
that
Equus
run
came
on
that
came
on
the
marketplace
and
they're
they're
a
big
profile.
I.
Think
everybody
recognizes
that
so
25
years
from
1998
to
where
we
sit
today-
and
you
look
at
this
list
here-
that
I
have
in
front
of
me
the
same
list
that
you
have
in
front
of
you.
Therefore
Kentucky
winers
represented
in
the
wholesaler's
profile
four
25
years
to
get
to
four.
E
We
have
78
wineries
in
the
state
of
Kentucky
and
again
only
four
are
five
percent
are
represented
by
Distributors,
and
yet
today
the
Distributors
are
going
to
come
up
here
and
counter
in
terms
of
why
SB
28
should
be
opposed.
I
think
this
document
kind
of
shares
light
in
another
sense,
so
I
would
also
bring
down
down
the
sense
that
the
wholesalers
position
is
that
we're
going
to
be
overrun
with
out-of-state
wineries.
So
let's
just
pause
and
take
a
look.
E
Let's
look
simply
at
the
very
first
column
down
here
underneath
the
first
distributed
Southern,
so
so
the
so
the
concern
is
out-of-state
wineries.
So,
let's
look
at
who
Southern
distributes,
at
least
from
their
website.
They
have
one
Kentucky
Winery
Stone,
Brook.
Okay,
then
their
concern
is
outside
wineries.
So
now,
let's
look
at
who
Southern
distributes
wines
from
California
Michigan,
New,
York,
Ohio,
Oregon,
Pennsylvania,
Texas
Virginia.
It
doesn't
stop
there.
Let's
look
at
other
countries,
so
we're
not
supporting
Kentucky.
Now
we're
sliding
into
Austria
Chile
France
Italy,
New,
Zealand
Spain.
E
Now
each
one
of
you
had
this
list
in
front
of
you
and
I
could
simply
take
a
moment
and
simply
read
down
through
list
after
list
after
list
of
all
the
all
the
locations
that
come
into
Kentucky
through
the
Wholesale
Distributors
that
are
not
Kentucky.
Who
should
be
worried
about
the
non-patches
of
SB
28?
E
It's
the
Kentucky
wineries,
because
clearly
the
wholesalers
are
supporting
outside
the
state
Wineries
and
outside
the
country
wineries,
so
Derek
actually
mentioned
in
terms
of
kentuckians
supporting
kentuckians
SB
28
is
just
that
it
is
Kentucky
and
supporting
kentuckians
each
one
of
us
are
farmers.
I
know
behind
me:
I
have
wineries
who
are
in
this
state
We
Are
Farmers
we
produce
in
this
state.
We
support
we
support
locally.
So
my,
for
example,
my
labels
in
my
Winery-
they
are
literally
produced
Senator
Douglas
you'll,
appreciate
this.
My
labels
are
produced
by
Turner
labels
in
Nicholasville.
E
They
are
four
miles
away
now.
I
promise
you,
when
I
look
at
the
list
that
I
have
in
front
of
you
from
the
wholesalers
distribute
how
many
California
wine
New
York
wines
are
Italian
wines,
have
their
labels
produced
in
Jessamine,
County,
I,
I,
think
I
think
that
I
think
we
have
the
answer
to
that
question.
The
answer
is
no,
so
certainly
you
see
the
passion
that
it
bring
forth
in
this,
but
but
long
have
the
Kentucky
wineries
been
I,
guess
maybe
the
redheaded
step
children
in
the
in
the
whole
mix,
so
to
speak.
E
E
Why
there
is
tremendous
support
on
that
on
the
second
document,
support
SB
28,
so
they'll
have
a
second
file
within
that
I
just
kind
of
Point
through
here,
because
one
of
the
key
concerns
within
the
the
wholesalers
is
they're.
Speaking
of
that,
we
will
be
overrun
with
outside
wineries.
So
we
said
you
know
what?
Let's
do
a
little
research
and
try
to
understand.
E
Is
that
the
case
that
other
states
who
have
far
greater
numbers
in
self-distribution
so
in
contacting
the
Michigan
wine
component
that
actually
oversees
all
the
Kentucky
all
the
wineries
in
Michigan
and
they
have
an
allowance
of
one
million
gallons
in
self-distribution.
The
unequivocal
answer
was
no.
They
are
not
overrun
by
outside
wineries.
So
again
the
wholesaler's
position
on.
F
E
Unsupported
as
you
look
down
through
here
further,
you
have
Missouri
Missouri,
500,
000,
gallons,
the
same
same
situation.
So
as
you
walk
down
through
here
and
see
that
particular
list
you
will,
you
will
see
again
the
unsupported
element
to
the
outside
the
wholesalers
having
that
concern
about
unsupported
outside
wineries
coming
in
and
self-distributing.
E
A
E
D
A
Thank
you
for
your
presentation.
I'm
sure
members
do
have
questions
I
have
one.
Does
this
bill
restrict
the
small
Farm
Winery
from
Distributing,
only
wine
that
they
produce.
D
D
No
Senator,
that's
that's
not
what
that's
not
how
we
read
this
bill.
A
D
You
are
correcting
what
you're
saying,
so
we
do
not
desire
to
have
that.
What
we're
looking
for
is
the
ability
for
a
small
Farm
Winery
license
holder
to
self-distribute
their
wines
and
their
wines.
Only.
G
Thank
you.
Mr
chairman
I've
got
a
couple
of
questions.
One
I
guess
I
can
address
to
Mr
Huff
for
there's.
Probably
nobody
up
here.
That's
going
to
at
least
admit
to
thinking
about
consuming
line
in
terms
of
gallons
how
many
cases
or
bottles.
However,
you
want
to
break
it
down,
is
30
000
gallons.
D
Sure
so,
as
a
point
of
reference,
thank
you
Senator
one
gallon
is
approximately
five
of
bottles.
So
if
you're,
if
you're
looking
at
30,
000
gallons,
it's
approximately
150,
000
bottles
break
that
down
to
cases
there's
12
bottles
in
a
case,
I
trust
me:
I
am
no
math
whiz
that
2500
cases.
G
I
haven't
Mr:
chairman
can
I
have
a
you
may
okay,
there
was
a
lot
of
talk
for
both
of
you,
gentlemen,
about
the
wholesaling
wholesalers,
shutting
out
the
the
small
wineries
and
that
that
they
weren't
supporting
that
and
I
believe
Mr
Huff.
You
mentioned
something
about
the
size
in
this
and
how
small
is
too
small
to
for
the
wholesalers
to
be
interested
and
how
large
do
you
have
to
be
for
the
whole
for
it
to
make
sense
for
us,
so
wholesalers
to
be
involved.
G
I'm
asking
this
question
in
the
context
of
the
30
000
gallons
and
where
that
number
fits
in
there's
always
a
Continuum
on
Supply
demand,
curves
of
when
it
makes
economic
sense
to
do
something
and
there's
got
to
be
a
sweet
spot
in
there
somewhere,
where
it
makes
sense
for
both
sides
and
I
was
just
wanting
to
know
get
your
feedback
on
that.
Yes,.
D
Senator,
so
that
is
an
excellent
question.
It's
somewhat
of
an
enigma
as
to
what
number
is
attractive
for
Distributors.
What
I
will
say
is
that
we
don't
want
to
distribute
our
own
products
we
have
to.
We
don't
want
to
be
Distributors.
What
we
would
like
to
do
is
build
portfolios
that
are
large
enough
that
are
attractive
enough
to
where
a
distributor
will
contact
us
and
say:
hey
I'd
like
to
move
your
product
that
doesn't
happen.
It
doesn't
happen
in
the
state,
no
matter
what
size
you
are.
E
And
Senator
Hall
I
would
also
just
chime
in
there
is
that
you
know
Kentucky
wineries,
reporting
representing
78
winders
across
the
state.
Each
business
model
is
different,
so
it's
not
a
so
the
allowance
of
the
so
the
like
the
Brewers
at
five
percent
but
they're
77,
500
gallons,
the
wineries
at
six
percent
at
the
30
000
gallons.
It
allows
for
wineries
across
the
state
really
to
kind
of
fit
within
that
profile
where
they
see
their
business
model
because
we're
certainly,
we
all
operate
in
a
different
business
model.
Mr.
G
Last,
yes,
sir,
so
you
use
Mr
if
you
stated
that
that
it
doesn't
happen,
are
there
no
small
farm
wineries
that
have
a
wholesaler
distribution
in
the
state?
Is
that
what
I'm
hearing
so
so,
specifically.
E
E
G
H
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman
and
I've
spoken
with
the
sponsor
several
times.
I'm
supportive
of
this
bill.
I
have
several
Farm
wineries,
small
farm
wineries
in
my
district,
I
and
I've
talked
to
the
sponsor
about
this.
My
concern
is,
is
the
30
000
gallons
is?
How
do
we
arrive
at
that
figure,
and
is,
is?
Is
that
a
you
know
is
a
magic
Point
somewhere
lower
than
that?
That's
my
concern
is
the
thirty
thousand
gallons.
E
So
that's
a
great
question:
Senator
Senator
Higdon!
So,
first
and
foremost,
I
kind
of
we'll
go
back
to
Senate
Bill
15.
That
was
the
allowance
on
the
Brewers
and
the
Brewers
they're
allowed
to
produce
one
million
550,
000
gallons
they're
they're
allowance
in
sp-15
gave
them
five
percent
at
77
500..
So
if
you
look
at
on
parity,
so
if
we
take
the
wineries
on
parity,
I
know
we're
at
six
percent
of
six
percent
puts
us
at
the
30,
000
gallons.
Five
percent
puts
us
at
25,
000,
gallons
and
certainly
25.
E
000
gallons
has
us
on
parity,
so
they're
they're
in
lies
where
the
number
comes
from
in
support
of
that
number.
If
I
might
throw
out
just
one
additional
thought
behind
that,
had
the
opportunity
to
speak
with
the
representatives
in
Ohio
Ohio,
who
represent
all
the
wineries
across
the
collective
state
about
20
years
ago,
they
put
in
the
allowance
for
Ohio
whiners
to
self-distribute
250,
000
gallons.
That
was
done
20
20
years
ago.
If
you
look,
if
you're
familiar
with
the
Ohio
wine
industry,
it's
a
very
flourishing
wine
industry.
E
So
at
the
point
that
they
introduced,
250,
000
gallons
significantly
higher,
obviously
than
our
thirty
thousand,
the
Ohio
wineries
are
much
smaller
and
what
we've
seen
if
you
look
at
Ohio
as
a
kind
of
a
poster
child,
it's
really
allowed
that
that
industry
to
flourish
in
Ohio
to
create
all
the
tourism
and
the
growth
in
the
wineries,
so
so
establishing.
Obviously,
we
have
the
parity
with
the
with
the
Brewers
and
then
also
recognizing
our
our
sister
state
in
Ohio
as
a
good
example.
Thank
you,
sir.
I
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman
and
I
apologize.
I
was
late,
I
was
coming
from
another
committee
and
going
to
another
committee,
you
know
I
I
I'm
struggling
with
this
a
little
bit,
and
particularly
on
the
parody
thing,
because
when
you
talk
about
parity,
bourbon
is
different
than
beer.
That's
different
than
Wine,
and
so
they're
they're
separate
and
distinct
products
and
I'm
gonna
kind
of
follow
along
the
lines
of
Senator
Higdon
that
30
000
it.
It
does
seem
a
little
high.
You
know:
I'm
supportive
I
want
our
small
businesses
and
industries
to
thrive
and
grow.
I
So
if
you
are
a
small
Farm
Winery
right
now,
what
is
your
general
output?
How
many
gallons
go.
D
Ahead,
so
obviously
we
speak
for.
Thank
you
Senator.
D
Obviously,
we
speak
for
78
different
small
farm
wineries
across
the
state
who
have
varied
production
capacities
and
varied
production
output,
so
we
and
speaking
of
craft
beverages
we're
not
trying
to
say
that
we're
the
same
as
Brewers
the
same
as
distillers,
but
when
we
speak
about
craft
producers,
microbrewers
micro
distilleries
and
micro
wineries,
small
farm
wineries,
that
is
the
parity
that
we're
discussing
is,
is
the
small
producer
when
it
when
it
comes
down
to
what
we
produce
I've
only
been
in
business
for
three
years
and
I've.
D
Just
recently
increased
my
production
space
to
meet
demand
at
my
tasting
room
I'm,
not
currently
in
any
retail
locations,
I'm
hoping
to
rectify
that
with
this
bill,
but
I
produce
approximately
1200
cases
a
year
or
or
you
know
somewhere
somewhere
around
15
000
bottles.
Something
like
that.
However,
Brian
probably
produces
a
little
bit
less
than
that,
and
there
are
small
farm
winners
in
the
state
that
produce
exponentially
more
wine
than
I
do
and
they
are
still
small
farm.
Wineries
ran
by
a
couple
people
who
farmed
their
own
land
and
create
their
own
products.
A
D
That's
not
necessarily
accurate,
so
everything
that
we
could
produce
would
be
upwards
of
500,
000
gallons,
which
our
license
currently
allows.
We
are
asking
for
six
percent
of
that
500
000
gallons,
because
we
we
need
to
speak
for
all
of
small
farm
winers
across
the
state,
so
no
I
I,
don't
I
will
never
produce
500,
000
gallons
I'll,
never
produce,
probably
anywhere
near
that
number.
However,
we
must
take
care
of
all
small
farm
wineries
in
the
state.
D
J
Thank
you
Mr
chairman,
and
thank
you
for
your
presentation.
I
have
several
small
wineries
in
the
district
who
I've
talked
to
and
reached
out
to
them
and
have
had
this
conversation
and
I
understand
the
need
and
desire
to
have
more
distribution
options
for
sure.
So.
I
have
two
questions.
If
I'm
allowed
to
ask
too
the
first
one
is
just
to
be
sure,
I'm
clear
that
there's
nothing
in
the
legislation
that
prevents
a
an
out-of-state
out
of
state
Winery
from
registering
as
a
farm
to
table
in
the
state
and
circumventing
the
legislation.
E
So
Senator
May's
blessed.
So
thank
you
so
much
for
your
question
and
so
correct.
There
is
nothing
in
that,
but
let's,
if
you
can
I,
give
you
kind
of
some
data
behind
why
they
would
not
do
that
so
two
elements,
one
is:
if
you
look
at
the
surrounding
states
and
their
significant
levels
at
250,
500
000,
a
million
gallons
in
self-distribution
they've
not
had
that
issue.
So
if
they
haven't
had
the
issue
at
250,
000
and
above
Kentucky
at
thirty
thousand
gallons,
certainly
certainly
wouldn't
cross
that
line
if
they
did
so.
E
If
we
just
simply
look
at
the
Baseline
numbers,
30,
000
gallons,
what
that
would
represent
in
a
let's
say
somebody
did
come
in
to
do
that.
They
would
come
in
that
would
represent
about
750
000
in
potential
Revenue
absence
of
all
the
expenses
tied
into
that.
So
now
we
have
several
employees
a
couple
hundred
thousand
dollars
wrapped
into
that
we
have
a
spot.
We
have
a.
We
have
all
the
other
expenses
tied
into
it.
Then
we
have
the
taxes
that
come
as
a
result
of
the
profit
margin.
E
When
you
really
look
down
underneath
all
those
numbers,
there's
probably
about
a
hundred
fifty
thousand
dollars
to
two
hundred
thousand
dollars
left
remaining,
it's
a
pretty
low
ticket
for
somebody
to
go
to
that
expense
and
an
effort
to
come
into
Kentucky
when
you
would
want
to
go
simply
I
think
into
the
other
states.
So
the
numbers
when
you
really
look
at
the
numbers,
the
numbers
simply
don't
mesh
in
that,
and
then
there
are
certainly
are
other
opportunities
outside
our
state.
Okay,.
C
Senator
also
I
might
add.
There
was
a
case
I
think
it
was
New,
York
or
New
Jersey,
one
of
those
States
and
I'm,
not
a
lawyer,
but
actually
where
they
tried
to
prohibit
these
small
farm
wineries
from
being
able
to
distribute
in
their
state
and
the
district
court.
The
U.S
court
actually
decided
they
could
not
prohibit
them,
so
we
would
be
faced
with
lawsuit,
trying
to
prohibit
them
from
being
able
to
come
into
our
state.
Okay,.
A
J
I'm
freshman
Grace.
Thank
you.
So
one
of
the
models
that
I
thought
was
interesting
with
having
a
certain
distance.
You
could
sell
within
100
miles
that
that
was
their
way
of
kind
of
I.
Think
protecting
some
of
that
and
I
was
just
curious.
If
we
looked
into
that
kind
of
legislation
at
all
consideration.
D
Yes,
thank
you.
Senator
I
I
have
seen
that
model.
It's
my
belief
that
in
the
state
of
Kentucky,
if
if
a
business
in
Kentucky
would
like
to
sell
their
products
on
the
other
side
of
Kentucky
I,
don't
think
we
should
be
limited
in
doing
so.
E
And
I
would
I
would
additionally
just
add
on
on
to
Derek
I
think.
The
reason
we're
sitting
here
today
is
because
of
limitations
that
have
been
been
placed
on
the
Kentucky
wine
element.
So
ideally
thank.
A
You're
welcome
okay:
let's
get
the
other
group
up
here
and
see
what
they
have
to
say.
If
you,
men
could
take
a
step
back
and
people
that
don't
support
this
come
up
and
we've
gone
about
30
minutes
and
I.
Assure
the
committee
will
be
out
of
here
before
an
hour.
A
K
Oh
here
we
go,
you
think
I've
never
been
up
here
before.
Thank
you.
I'm
Charles,
George
executive
director
for
the
wine
and
spirits
wholesalers
of
Kentucky
and
I'll
go
ahead
and
let
my
guests
introduce
himself
I'm,
Joshua
Mulberry,.
K
You
thank
you,
chairman
Circle
members
of
the
committee
I,
want
to
thank
all
of
you
here
in
the
last
week
and
a
half
two
weeks,
I
think
we've
been
in
talking
and
communicating
with
you
all
frequently
so
appreciate
your
time
during
I
know
a
very
busy
session
that
we're
already
having
first
of
all,
I
want
to
make
the
point
that
I
am
proud
to
represent
the
wine
and
spirits
wholesalers
of
Kentucky.
These
are
good
kentuckians.
These
are
upstanding
businesses.
They
contribute
a
lot
to
our
economy.
K
Okay,
we
have
yes,
we
are
multi-state
companies
that
operate
in
Kentucky,
but
the
folks,
the
the
who
run
these
businesses
in
Kentucky
are
multi-generational
kentuckians
in
general,
the
wine
and
spirits
and
the
beer
distribution
business.
It's
a
very
much
a
family
affair.
We
pay
our
employees
on
an
average
of
seventy
thousand
dollars
a
year.
We
take
care
of
our
own,
so
these
are
good
kentuckians
in
your
communities.
I
have
no
shame
in
representing
our
industry;
none.
They
are
good.
K
People
they've
been
good
to
me
and
they
do
good
work
around
the
Commonwealth
I'll.
Just
I
want
to
address
a
couple
of
the
concerns
that
the
the
gentleman
and
also
want
to
say
too
I
have
a
lot
of
respect
for
the
gentleman
behind
me.
Mr
huff
and
Mr
Young,
particularly
Mr
Huff,
with
his
service
to
our
country,
a
ton
of
respect
for
what
he's
done
and
sacrificing
for
our
country
and
I
have
a
lot
of
respect
for
what
they've
done
in
building
their
wineries.
It's
awesome.
It's
awesome
to
see.
K
We
support
Kentucky
wineries.
We
do
let
me
first
address
about
the
lack
of
distribution.
Kentucky
wineries
are
distributed.
You
can
go
to
Red
Dot
right
now,
you'll
find
10
Kentucky
wineries
on
the
Shelf.
Okay.
If
you
look
at
the
numbers
at
the
distribution,
the
line
generally
is
around
4,
000
gallons.
If
you're
a
winery
producing
more
than
four
thousand
gallons
in
Kentucky
you're
being
distributed,
it
may
not
be
one
of
my
members
but
you're
being
distributed.
There
are
22
licensed
small
Farm
Winery
wholesalers
in
Kentucky
they're,
not
my
members.
K
Okay,
they
were
design
that
license
was
created
to
help
exactly
what
their
concerns
are.
So
it's
not
as
if
distribution
is
not
happening.
It
is,
there
are,
if
you
look
at
gallonage
wineries,
that
produce
less
than
4,
000
gallons,
which
are
the
two
gentlemen
behind
me.
They
produce
less
than
four
thousand
gallons
you'll
see
a
patchwork.
Some
are
distributed.
Some
are
not
some.
Don't
even
want
distribution
right,
they're,
doing
the
barbecue
festivals,
the
weddings
at
their
wineries,
they're,
not
really
concerned
with
distribution.
Necessarily.
K
So
this
notion
that
you
know
these
products
are
not
out
in
the
marketplace
is
simply
false:
they
are
they're
out
there
go
to
Red
Dot
right
now
because
they're
there
so
and
then,
if
you
look
at
our
portfolios
well,
of
course,
99
of
our
portfolios
are
going
to
be
wine
from
California
Washington,
State
Oregon
over
obviously
Europe.
That's,
who
produces
the
vast
majority
of
wine
in
this
world?
K
If
you
go
to
Mississippi
and
want
a
bottle
of
whiskey,
what
percentage
or
bottle
of
bourbon
what
percentage
of
that
bourbon
is
going
to
be
Kentucky
bourbon,
a
great
majority
is
going
to
be
Kentucky
bourbon
right,
we
produce
most
95
percent
of
the
bourbon
in
the
world,
so
you
can
slice
and
dice
all
these
numbers.
All
you
want.
K
The
reality
is
is
that
if
you're
a
winery
of
any
size
in
Kentucky
you're
getting
distribution
right
now,
if
you're
a
small
form
of
truly
true
small
Farm
Winery,
like
the
gentleman
behind
me
like
they
operate,
they
have
difficulty
getting
mainly
into
some
local
restaurants,
all
right,
some
local
package
stores.
We
support
their
ability
to
do
that.
Let
me
make
that
clear.
We
support
them
in
getting
into
the
local
local
stores.
We
could
have
said
at
the
outset
of
this
discussion.
We
could
have
said
no.
We
oppose
this
bill.
K
We're
not
saying
oppose
the
bill,
we're
saying:
let's
fix
the
bill.
Now.
I
got
a
letter
March
of
2022
almost
11
months
ago,
from
the
Kentucky
wineries
Association
these
gentlemen.
Behind
me,
it
stated
that
they
were
going
to
pursue
five
percent
of
allowable
production,
so
they
were
going
to
pursue
25,
000
gallons
self-distribution.
K
What
does
the
bill
say?
30,
000
gallons?
Why
have
they
gone
up?
5,
000
gallons,
that's
a
lot
of
wine.
It's
not
parody
with
beer
so
and
they
have
fluctuated.
They
had
a
member
in
June
of
last
year
in
the
interim
committee
meeting
in
Northern
Kentucky.
She
testified
that
she
would
like
to
self-distribute
one
case
per
month.
That's
what
would
satisfy
her
demand.
One
case
per
month,
okay
they've
gone
up
and
down
Thirty,
ten
thousand
Thirty
twenty
five
thousand.
K
Seven
thousand
gallons,
that's
almost
three
thousand
cases
over
thirty
five
thousand
bottles
of
wine
that
they
would
be
able
to
self-distribute.
Under
our
compromise
proposal,
we've
gone
up
each
time
that
we've
met
with
them,
we're
trying
to
work
in
good
faith,
and
we
will
continue
to
do
so
just
to
give
you
some
perspective
on
the
thirty
thousand
gallons
as
well.
That
would
fill
up
12
semi
trucks.
So
probably
this
room
in
129
would
probably
be
full
of
wine.
K
I,
don't
think
that
is
what's
necessary
to
achieve
the
goals
of
Mr
huff
and
Mr
Young
and
the
vast
majority
of
Kentucky
wineries.
Yes,
there,
there
is
one
Winery
in
the
state
that
produces
over
30,
000
gallons,
one
okay,
they're
already
they're
using
a
small
Farm
Winery
wholesaler.
They
have
distribution
I.
To
my
knowledge,
you
see
their
bottles
all
over
the
place.
I
think
they're
doing
just
fine,
okay,
so
there's
one
Winery
over
30,
000
gallons.
So
compare
that
with
beer.
K
The
Kentucky
beer
self
distribution
limit
is
2500
barrels,
okay,
there's
seven
microbreweries
in
Kentucky
that
produce
more
than
2500
barrels.
When
you're
talking
volume,
there's
really
not
an
Apples
to
Apples
comparison
between
wine
and
beer,
there's
a
lot
more
beer
sold
in
Kentucky.
It
represents
about
50
percent
of
all
alcohol
sold
in
the
state.
Okay,
wine
represents
about
15
percent,
so
beer
volume
is
going
to
be
much
much
much
greater
than
Wine.
K
Okay,
well,
if
they
get
30
minutes,
sir,
but
okay
I
respect
you
out
of
state
the
out-of-state
issue.
We
are
unique
in
Kentucky
with
this
issue,
so
when
they
mention
Ohio
Michigan
Ohio
to
my
in
Michigan,
they
don't
allow
an
out-of-state
Winery
to
get
their
States.
Small
Farm
Winery
license
we're
unique
in
the
country
that
we
allow
an
out-of-state
Winery
to
get
a
Kentucky
small
Farm
Winery
license,
and
this
has
become
an
issue
just
recently.
K
So,
of
course,
the
intention
behind
that,
when
it
was
passed,
was
let's
create
some
tourism
around
wine.
If
Mr
Huff
wants
to
sell
Mr
Young's
products,
let's
do
that.
Let's
promote
the
Kentucky
wand
industry,
here's
what
it's
turned
into
a
Kentucky,
a
small
Farm
Winery
in
Western
Kentucky,
that's
tiny,
probably
producing
a
thousand
gallons
or
less
order.
K
1200
cases
of
wine
finished
bottled
wine
from
a
winery
in
Washington,
State,
okay
fin
not
not
juice,
that
they
then
fermented
finished
bottles
of
wine
and
the
only
thing
that
Washington
Winery
had
to
do
to
make
it
legal
was
to
get
a
hundred
and
ten
dollar
small
Farm
Winery
license
in
Kentucky.
That's
all
so
you're
talking
about
1200
cases
of
wine
crossing
our
borders
and-
and
so
that's
why
this
license
and
out-of-state
wineries
being
able
to
obtain
it
is
becoming
a
real
problem.
K
K
K
When
we
talk
about
Kentucky
wine,
perhaps
being
the
stepchild
of
I
guess
the
alcohol
industry
Kentucky
wineries
have
enjoyed
privileges
that
distilleries
and
Brewers.
Didn't
have
up
until
the
last
year
or
two
they've
been
able
to
sell,
sell
at
Ferris
festivals
events
that
just
happened
for
distilleries
last
year
be
able
to
sell
directly
at
their
Winery.
That
just
happened
for
distilleries
a
couple
years
ago
been
able
to
ship
directly.
K
That
was
a
result
of
some
litigation
that
had
occurred.
Kentucky
wineries
were
actually
shipping.
Before
the
direct
to
consumer
law
went
into
place,
they
can
set
up
their
own
retail
stores
that
occurred
before
Kentucky
Distillery,
so
they've
had
a
lot
of
privileges.
In
addition
to
that,
they've
been
subsidized
right
they've
been
there
have
been
tobacco
settlement.
Money
goes
through
their
industry.
There's
been
tax
breaks,
so
they've
been
given
a
lot
of
advantages.
K
The
reality
is,
there's
a
market
right,
the.
What
does
the
consumer
desire?
We
want
Kentucky,
one
to
thrive.
So
far,
consumers
have
spoken
with
wine
from
Italy
California
Washington.
That's
where
the
pop?
That's.
Where
consumers
choices
have
gone.
We
would
love
for
them
to
grow
their
Wineries,
and
will
you
believe
that
Tennessee
model
does
would
do
exactly
what
they
needed
need
to
do?
I'll,
let
Joshua
speak.
L
Thank
you.
You
know
just
real
quick
I
want
to
address
so
Heidelberg.
We
represent
three
Kentucky
wineries.
We
have
for
many
years,
I've
been
in
this
business
for
15
years,
and
we've
worked
with
Kentucky
winers
that
entire
time
the
last
Kentucky
Winery
that
reached
out
to
me
was
about
two
years
ago
that
we
had
a
dialogue,
went
and
visited
them
thought
they
had
a
good
plan.
We
represent
them.
L
We
sell
them
to
stores
across
the
state
of
Kentucky
at
this
time,
so
to
say
that
this
is
broken
or
not
working
or
there
is
no
access
to
Market.
That
would
not
be
accurate,
so
you
know
again.
These
are.
These
are
normal
conversations
that
happen,
but
I've
never
once
heard
from
either
these
two
gentlemen's
wineries
in
the
past,
so
to
say,
there's
no
access
to
Market
is
not
entirely
true,
so
we're
trying
to
address
a
problem
that
I,
don't
really
think
exists
so
well.
K
Let
me
also
add
too,
you
know
we
don't
have
I've
talked
to
my
members.
We
don't
have
retailers
banging
on
our
door.
Saying
please
get
us
this
Kentucky
wine.
We
really
want
it
and
we
don't
even
have
small
farm
wineries
in
general
contacting
our
members
banging
on
the
door.
Saying
please
distribute
for
us
I
when
you're
Distributing
that
it's
trying
to
sell
that
little
volume
of
wine
I
think
their
biggest.
It's
not
a
logistics
concern.
We
can
pick
up
the
wine
and
get
it
to
the
retailer.
K
We
have
trucks
all
over
the
driving
all
over
the
state
right
now.
The
the
issue
is
the
margin
right.
We
would
there's
obviously
a
cost
to
what
we
do,
and
so
they
would
not
get
the
full
margin
of
the
product,
but
under
our
proposal
they
would
be
able
Mr
Huff
Mr
Young.
Could
they
could
double
triple
their
their
production
and
get
that.
A
Okay
to
the
local
restaurant,
okay,
here's
what
we're
gonna
do!
I
think
we
plowed
this
field
pretty
good
and
we
plowed
it
a
few
times
before
during
the
interim
I.
C
A
Have
some
concerns
about
the
gallonage
which
I
spoke
to
the
bill
sponsor
about,
but
we
have
decided
to
leave,
leave
leave
it,
as
is
that
doesn't
mean
it
can't
be
changed
down
the
road,
but
I
do
feel
that
we
really
do
need
to
help
these
small
farm
wineries.
They
are
the
one
group
that
that
really
hasn't
been
able
to
come
into
its
own
since
I've
been
chairing
this
committee
and-
and
it
would
just
be
wonderful
if
we
could
give
them.
F
A
M
You
Mr
chairman,
you
know
it
feels
like
Groundhog
Day.
Here
we
are
February
licensing
and
occupations
committee
and
we
got
another
fight
between
the
participants
in
Kentucky's,
lauded
three-tier
system,
I
think
I'm
the
longest
serving
member
on
this
committee,
perhaps
Senator
Harper,
Angel
and
I
have
been
on
here.
The
longest
and
I
feel
like
we're
always
broker
in
a
fight
among
friends.
What's
next
cosmetologists
and
hairdressers
line
them
up,
bring
them
in
we'll
we'll
broker
that
fight.
M
M
A
I
I
So
if
most
of
our
faults,
small
farm
wineries
produce
less
than
that,
we're
essentially
not
nullifying
the
three-tier
system,
because
they
can.
They
have
a
control
over
every
single
aspect
of
the
product.
So
are
we
supportive
of
the
three-tier
system
or
not
because
we're
essentially
eliminating
it
in
this
instance?
N
About
I
but
I'd
like
to
explain
my
vote.
Mr
chairman,
you
may
Mr
chairman
again,
I
vote
I,
but
I
do
want
to
express
some
concern
and
I'll
and,
and
part
of
that
is
me-
I'll-
need
to
read
a
little
bit
more
and
look
up
a
little
bit
more
about
some
of
our
out-of-state
wineries
being
able
to
ship
wines
into
the
Commonwealth.
Thank
you,
Mr
chairman
you're,.
A
H
G
Explain
my
vote.
Mr
chairman
I'm
about
I
want
to
vote
eye
on
this,
but
marrying
the
other
conversations
at
the
30
000
gallon
limit
I'm
almost
assuredly
a
no
vote
on
the
floor,
but
I
want
to
be
able
to
advance
this
on
for
further
discussion.
J
Met
thank
you,
I'm,
going
to
support
the
bill
for
the
same
reasons
to
move
it
out
of
committee
for
further
discussion,
but
I
absolutely
share
the
same
concerns
that
I've
expressed
already
and
the
same
ones
that
Senator
Adams
has
expressed
by
the
numbers
and
the
confliction
between
the
tiers
I
think
those
need
to
be
addressed
now,
or
at
least
in
the
interim
before
it
moves
the
floor
or
I'd
have
a
hard
time
supporting
it
moving
forward.
Thank
you.
A
O
Thank
you,
sir
I'm,
going
to
cast
an
eye
vote,
but
I
want
to
say
a
couple
of
things
to
both
sides.
Here,
first
and
foremost,
is
we're
seeing
this
descend
into
what
we
frequently
see,
particularly
on
alcohol
issues,
which
is
there's
a
level
of
acrimony.
That's
beginning
to
creep
into
the
personal
and
I
would
encourage
both
sides
to
keep
this
on.
The
issue
to
Mr
Huff
is
somebody
who
spent
many
years
as
an
infantry
officer
myself.
O
I
remember
when
I
was
at
the
platoon
level.
We
always
complained
about
the
guys
at
Battalion
when
I
was
at
the
company
level,
the
idiots
at
Brigade,
and
when
I
was
at
Battalion
level.
We
complained
about
the
morons
running
the
division,
but
a
lot
of
times
there
was
a
bigger
picture
and
there
were
historical
precedence
for
things
and
I
would
encourage
you.
You
know
the
three-tier
system
emerged
out
of
prohibition,
as
we
all
know,
for
a
variety
of
of
legal
and
Regulatory
and
historical
reasons,
and
a
lot
of
these
wholesalers.
O
They
were
small
entrepreneurs
at
one
time
themselves
were
generationally
removed
from
their
Origins,
but
we
do
need
to
remember
those
things
to
the
wholesalers.
I
would
encourage
you
guys
to
remember
the
little
guys
and
how
we
support
them
or
not,
and
they
have
a
legitimate
place
in
our
capitalistic
economy
and
one
that
I
think
that
you'll
find
the
general
assembly
continuing
to
support
as
we
advance
these
issues
and
so
I
encourage
you
guys
to
both
pursue
those
aspects.
O
Don't
come
either
side
waving
a
false
flag,
not
necessarily
deliberately
but
out
of
a
point
of
frustration,
because
that
can
happen
in
these
things,
particularly
when
you've
dug
up
acres
and
had
to
plant
vines,
and
you
know
get
them
get
them
to
a
point
where
you
have
a
marketable
product,
then
all
of
a
sudden
you
find
out
you
have
some
type
of
a
silly.
What
appears
to
be
a
silly
historical
bureaucratic
restriction
on
your
ability
to
grow.
That
being
said,
probably
look
forward
to
coming
down
and
getting
some
cases
at.
A
O
But
I
will
say
too
last
thing:
we
want
to
help
small
businesses
in
Kentucky.
That
is
the
nature
of
why
government
exists
to
set
a
framework
for
success.
I
believe,
though,
that
we
also
have
a
historical
obligation
to
those
businesses,
who've
grown
up
inside
of
a
legal
environment
and
operated
in
that
way
to
ensure
that
we
don't
get
a
reputation
for
shutting
folks
down
who
have
done
things
inside
of
the
law
for
years.
O
F
A
F
Thank
you,
sir.
This
is
issue
that
I
know
quite
a
bit
about
the
reason
being
is
that
my
wife
owns
a
license
to
sell
wine
here
in
Kentucky
and
because
she
is
my
wife
section.
57
precludes
us
as
legislators
from
from
voting
on
issues
in
which
we
could
have
a
financial
benefit
from
that
and
so
in
in
in
and
honoring
the
conflict
that
I
personally
have
here
under
section
57
Mr
President
I'm,
going
to
recuse
myself
from
voting
on
this
issue.
A
I
vote
I
and
would
like
to
explain
my
vote.
I
want
to
point
out
to
the
members
of
the
committee
when
we
have
these
problems
in
this
committee.
We
have
these
problems
because
our
Industries
are
so
successful
and
we
should
never.
We
should
never
forget
that
these
problems
that
we're
having
are
because
of
success,
not
beset
because
so
many
Industries
have
problems
because
they're
Contracting,
but
we
have
good
problems.
Our
problems
are
because
we're
not
Contracting
so
always
remember
that
I
vote,
I
Senate,
Bill
28
is
passed
with
Fable.