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From YouTube: Benefits Cliff Task Force (8-24-22)
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A
C
A
C
A
I
believe
we
have
a
quorum.
Do
I
have
a
motion
to
approve
the
july
minutes
motion
and
been
seconded
no
objection.
Those
are
approved.
We'd
like
to
jump
into
this
with
charles
all,
with
the
kentucky
chamber
for
the
benefits
cliff
community
perspective.
E
Thank
you,
chair
give
me
just
one
second
here.
While
I
get
this
powerpoint
pulled
up.
A
E
We
go
we're
ready
to
roll
well
good
morning.
Everybody.
My
name
is
charles
all.
I
am
the
executive
director
of
the
kentucky
chamber
center
for
policy
and
research.
Thank
you
to
to
the
chairs
of
this
this
task
force
for
inviting
us
to
give
our
perspective
on
this
issue.
I
know
time
is
of
the
essence
today.
You
guys
have
a
lot
going
on,
so
I'm
going
to
try
to
be
as
brief
as
I
possibly
can.
E
This
presentation
is
going
to
fall
into
roughly
three
sections:
I'm
going
to
talk
a
little
bit
about
how
benefit
cliffs,
affect
employers
and
provide
that
business
community
perspective.
I
want
to
talk
a
little
bit
about
policy
solutions
that
you
all
might
consider
as
you're
working
your
way
through
this
process
and
then
we'll
talk
a
little
bit
about
some
of
kentucky's
childcare
challenges
again
from
that
business
community
perspective,
because
I
know
we
have
another
panel
coming
up
after
this
they'll
get
into
some
of
those
issues.
E
Saying
that
hey
this
is
actually
going
to
create
really
significant
problems.
Can
we
not
accept
this
pay
increase
and,
as
you'd
imagine,
that
employer
was
was
a
bit
taken
back
by
that?
So
it's
a
very
real
experience.
They
were
having
another
way
that
we
see
this
affecting
employers
is
when
it
comes
to
offering
an
employee,
more
hours
or
a
transition
from
part-time
employment
to
full-time
employment.
E
Those
requests
is
that
that
jeopardizes
or
at
least
perceives
to
jeopardize
access
to
various
public
assistance
programs
there
has
been,
I
think,
an
increased
frequency
in
hearing
about
these
challenges
from
employers
and
a
lot
of
that
has
to
do
with
some
of
the
labor
market,
tightness
that
we're
experiencing
right.
Now.
I
want
to
talk
a
little
bit
about
that,
just
to
put
this
into
perspective
and
how
this
problem
maybe
ebbs
and
flows.
E
This
is
a
quick
look
at
kentucky's
current
workforce
shortage,
so
this
blue
line
here
represents
the
number
of
job
vacancies
that
are
currently
in
kentucky,
so
the
number
of
jobs
that
are
currently
open
as
surveyed
by
employers
and
then
that
red
line
shows
you
the
number
of
unemployed
individuals
in
kentucky
and
remember
that
definition
of
an
unemployed,
individual
is
someone
who
does
not
have
work
but
is
actively
seeking
work.
So
these
are
folks
that
are
out
there
on
the
job
market.
E
Looking
for
jobs,
usually
those
two
lines
will
kind
of
hover
fairly
close
to
each
other,
so
you
might
have
one
open
job
for
every
unemployed
worker.
That's
a
fairly
decent
equilibrium
for
you
to
have.
That
means
you
know.
Workers
still
have
a
lot
of
leverage
in
the
labor
market,
but
at
the
same
time,
employers
can
actually
find
workers
to
staff
open
positions.
If
you
look
at
where
we
are
right
now,
this
is
based
on
may
2022.
E
We
have,
we
have
quite
a
few
more
open
jobs
than
we
do
people
actively
seeking
jobs
right
now,
it's
over
a
two
to
one
ratio.
So
there's
there's
more
than
two
open
jobs
for
every
individual.
That
is
actively
seeking
a
job
at
the
moment
in
kentucky,
so
that's
putting
a
whole
lot
of
labor
market
tightness
into
play,
and
employers
are
reacting
to
this
in
a
whole
bunch
of
different
ways,
but
one
of
the
key
ways
that
they're
acting
to
this
is
by
increasing
wages
and
increasing
salaries,
there's
all
sorts
of
different
ways.
E
We
can
look
at
wage
increases,
we
could
go
over
a
ton
of
charts.
This
is
a
quick
look
at
one
way
of
looking
at
wage
increases
and
how
wages
are
are
increasing
over
time.
This
is
the
employment
cost
index.
This
is
a
bureau
of
labor
statistics
measure
again,
you
can
see
a
pretty
upward,
obvious
upward
trend
as
we
move
into
the
second
quarter
of
2021,
and
that
upward
trend
has
just
continued
on
and
on
and
so
we're
seeing
a
whole
lot
of
wage
increases
and
salary
increases
on
part
of
employers.
E
The
other
thing
that
we're
seeing
is
employers
asking
workers
to
work
more,
particularly
we're
seeing
a
whole
lot
of,
maybe
part-time
employees
being
asked
to
consider
transitioning
into
near
full-time
or
time
itself.
This
is
another
bureau
of
labor
statistics
measure
that
we
can
look
at
that
tracks
average
weekly
hours
for
all
employees.
E
E
This
is
again
reflective
of
things
that
we're
hearing
about
in
say,
employer
surveys,
which
shows
that
one
of
the
ways
they're
coping
with
labor
force
shortages
is
by
asking
current
staff
to
work
more
so
again,
kind
of
go
back
to
those
two
challenges
that
I
talked
about
when
it
comes
to
benefit
cliff
challenges
for
employers,
increasing
compensation
offering
more
hours
we're.
Seeing
more
and
more
of
this,
it
is
a
long-term
issue.
E
But
again,
I
think
when
you
have
really
tight
labor
markets,
it
becomes
more
prevalent
than
it
normally
is,
even
though
it
is
a
problem,
regardless
of
labor
market
tightness.
So
I
want
to
talk
briefly
about
a
few
different
policy
solutions
for
this
task
force
to
kick
around,
as
you
all
explore
this
issue
in
more
detail.
E
First
of
all,
I
want
to
point
out
house
bill
708,
which
was
sponsored
by
representative
dixon.
I
think
that
piece
of
legislation
took
a
really
important
step
forward
in
addressing
some
of
these
issues
that
they
were
talking
about.
I
think
oftentimes
when
an
individual
is
receiving
public
assistance
benefits.
I
imagine
a
lot
of
anxiety
comes
with
that.
When
things
like
wage
increases
come
into
play,
more
hours
are
offered
because
there
there
is
that
potential
threat
they
could
be
losing
really
important
benefits
that
they
and
their
families
depend
on.
E
We
need
to
make
sure,
though,
that
those
decisions
are
as
fully
informed
as
we
possibly
can,
and
I
think
benefit
cliff
calculators
offer
a
really
good
way
to
do
that,
and
one
of
the
things
that
representative
dixon's
bill
did
is
that
it
required
the
cabinet
for
health
and
family
services
to
develop
a
proposal,
so
the
bill
doesn't
require
them
to
actually
implement
this
benefit
cliff
calculator
tool.
Instead,
it
allows
that
requires
them
to
create
a
proposal.
They
will
then
bring
that
to
you
all
and
you
all
can
kind
of
have
that
conversation.
E
I
think
that's
a
really
smart
way
to
go
about
doing
this.
There's
a
whole
lot
of
benefit,
cliff
calculator
tools
that
are
out
there
right
now.
You
all
learned
about
what
I
think
is
a
really
great
one.
The
family
resource
simulator
offered
by
the
kentucky
center
for
statistics
there's
a
whole
lot
of
other
ones.
The
atlanta
fed
has
one
called
cliff.
E
It's
acronym
the
career
ladder,
identifier
and
financial
forecaster.
The
georgia
center
for
opportunity
has
a
really
good
tool
national
center
for
children
in
poverty.
I
believe
united
way.
I
think
they
offer
types
of
tools,
there's
all
sorts
of
different
ones
out
there.
What
I
want
to
emphasize,
though,
is
that,
as
the
cabinet
develops
this
proposal
for
offering
a
benefit
calculator,
we
need
to
make
sure
that
it
is
a
benefit
calculator
that
truly
works
for
working
families,
but
also
employers.
E
I
kind
of
pull
in
my
own
personal
experiences
to
talk
a
little
bit
about
this.
You
know
the
household
that
I
I
was
raised
in
my
dad
worked
more
than
full
time
at
a
managing
a
local
hardware
store
representative
dixon
might
be
familiar
with
keister's
hardware.
You
might
remember
keister's.
My
dad
was
a
manager
at
keisters
for
pretty
much
my
entire
childhood,
my
mother,
she
didn't
work.
She
dealt
with
severe
mental
illness.
E
We
need
to
make
sure
that
this
thing
works
for
someone
like
that,
because
those
are
the
conditions
under
which
people
will
be
utilizing.
This
type
of
tool
and
making
those
types
of
decisions,
a
lot
of
the
other
benefit
cliff
calculators
that
are
out.
There
are
great
they're
great
for
researchers.
Like
me,
I'm
a
phd
trained
researcher.
I
can
work
my
way
through
these
tools
and
I
can
spend
hours
going
through
that.
E
I
think
we
need
to
make
sure,
though,
that
we
have
these
tools
that
are
truly
accessible
to
working
families,
people
that
are
under
the
types
of
pressures
that
we're
talking
about.
So
I
think
it
needs
to
emphasize
things
such
as
user
friendliness.
It
needs
to
clearly
illustrate
some
of
the
pathways
to
self-sufficiency.
E
It
also
needs
to
be
integrated
into
tools
that
benefit
recipients
are
already
using.
So
in
this
case,
for
kentucky,
we
need
to
make
sure
it's
integrated
with
something
like
connect,
instead
of
requiring
them
to
go
to
other
places,
and
then
I
also
think
we
need
to
think
about
providing
technical
and
coaching
support
services.
So
people
can
process
that
information,
and
if
they
have
questions
there
needs
to
be
a
place,
they
can
go
to
to
ask
questions
as
to
utilize
this
tool
and
they
make
these
decisions
for
the
betterment
of
themselves
and
their
family.
E
Public-Private
partnerships,
I
think,
is
another
model
that
we
could
consider,
and
this
is
a
good
way
to
help
employers
be
part
of
this
solution
and
I
think
house
bill
499,
which
was
sponsored
by
representative
samara,
hevron
and
passed
by
the
general
assembly.
This
past
session
offers
a
viable
framework
to
think
about
potential
public-private
partnerships
as
a
reminder
on
how
that
bill
works.
E
Essentially,
if
you
are
an
employer-
and
you
want
to
offer
a
form
of
child
care,
assistance
to
your
employees
say,
for
example,
a
200
stipend
every
month,
assuming
all
program
guidelines
are
met,
the
state
can
then
step
in
and
match
that
on
a
dollar
for
dollar
basis
up
to
100
of
the
cost
of
care.
So
in
that
case
the
state
could
step
in
and
offer
a
200
match,
giving
that
employee
a
total
400
benefit
that
they
can
apply
towards
the
cost
of
child
care.
E
I
think
we
can
think
about
how
this
might
intersect
with
benefit
cliffs
and
I'm
going
to
use
a
very
very
simplistic
example:
I'm
talking
through
the
child
care
assistance,
program
or
c-cap,
where
you
can
kind
of
just
think
about
this.
Theoretically,
how
it
could
work,
but
imagine
you
know
a
single
parent
of
just
say
a
two-year-old
as
an
example
as
they
cross
that
threshold
of
80
state
median
income.
That's
that's
our
current
threshold
for
for
being
eligible
for
the
child
care
assistance
partnership
when
they
cross
that
threshold
there's.
E
Of
course,
you
know,
there's
a
wait
period
that
goes
on
there,
but
let's
just
kind
of
set
that,
aside
for
a
minute
overall
they're,
looking
at
roughly
a
5616
dollar
loss
when
they
cross
that
threshold
in
terms
of
their
overall
child
care
benefits-
and
this
is
something
just
using
the
ky
stats
family
resource
stimulator.
So
it's
about
468
a
month.
If
that
individual,
though,
is
working
for
an
employer,
that's
an
hb
499
employer!
E
I
want
to
talk
a
little
bit
now
about
another
program
that
kentucky
could
give
a
lot
of
consideration
into,
which
is
something
called
the
earned
income
tax
credit
tax
credit,
I
know,
can
sometimes
be
award
with
a
lot
of
connotations
in
in
policy
discussions
around
frankfurt.
One
of
the
things
I
do
want
to
emphasize,
with
with
a
tax
credit
tax
credits
work
all
sorts
of
different
ways.
E
We
tend
to
think
of
them
as
creating
things
like
tax
loopholes,
or
you
know,
subsidizing
x,
y
and
z,
whatever
that
might
be
really
oftentimes
you're
talking
about
a
tax
credit
you're,
just
using
the
revenue
code
to
accomplish
a
policy
objective
and
I
think
the
earned
income
tax
credit
is
a
really
good
example
of
just
using
the
you
know
something
in
this
like
this:
the
irs,
for
example,
to
accomplish
a
specific
policy
objective,
the
federal
earned
income
tax
credit
is
a
tax
credit
program
that
targets
specifically
very
low
to
moderately
low
income
workers.
E
It
is
a
refundable
tax
credit.
What
that
means
is
is
that
if
you
are
eligible
for
a
credit
that
exceeds
your
actual
income
tax
liability,
you
can
recoup
the
rest
of
that
in
the
form
of
a
refund.
So
let's
say
I
have
a
100
refundable
tax
credit,
but
I
have
a
50
income
tax
liability.
I
could
still
receive
that
full
100.50
would
go
towards
the
do
a
pause
here.
E
Sure
the
way
that
the
the
eitc
works,
though,
is
that
it
is
a
credit
that
phases
in
as
an
individual
makes
more
money
and
to
that
extent
it
serves
as
an
incentive
to
work
and
bring
in
income
it
levels
out
at
a
certain
level,
as
as
you
bring
in
more
income
and
then
the
other
nice
thing
about
the
federal
earned
income
tax
credit
is
that
it
slowly
phases
out
over
time.
So
you
don't
automatically
just
lose
that
it's
structured
in
a
way
that
tends
to
favor
tax
filers
who
have
children.
E
That
is
a
key
component
of
this
I'm
using
2020
data.
The
numbers
currently
are
a
little
bit
different
because
the
monetary
parameters
of
the
earned
income
tax
credit
are
indexed
to
inflation,
so
they
go
up
over
time.
I
use
this
one
because
there
is
a
convenient
chart
available
for
this,
but
you
can
see
here
the
spread.
You
know
a
filer
with
three
children,
for
example
almost
seven
thousand
dollars,
whereas
a
non-parent
much
much
lower.
E
E
So,
generally
speaking,
you
file
in
january,
you
really,
you
can't
expect
to
receive
an
earned
income
tax
credit
until
usually
around
march,
so
you
get
that
all
in
one
lump
sum
with
that
being
said,
this
is
a
program
that
has
a
very
strong
track
record
of
incentivizing
employment
and
also
of
being
an
instrument
to
help
smooth
out
benefit
cliffs.
E
There's
a
lot
of
research
backing
that
up,
and
another
key
feature
that
I
point
out
with
earned
income
tax
credit
is
that
it's
one
of
those
policy
devices
that
receives
a
lot
of
credit
and
a
lot
of
attention
not
only
from
left-leaning
researchers,
but
also
a
lot
of
right-leaning
researchers
as
well.
It's
one
of
those
sort
of
ideologically
bipartisan
ideas.
Just
a
good
example
that
an
economist
that
I
look
to
a
lot
is
dr
michael
strain.
E
He
wrote
about
this
in
a
paper
recently
talking
about
how
the
earned
income
tax
credit
is
the
cornerstone
anti-poverty
policy
for
families
with
children
in
the
united
states,
designed
to
fight
poverty
by
encouraging
and
rewarding
work
decades
of
research
on
the
eit's
eitc
has
found
that
the
program
meets
its
goals
by
increasing
employment,
in
this
case,
among
targeted
women
and
by
successfully
raising
their
annual
incomes
lifting
millions
of
families
out
of
poverty
in
the
paper
that
they
wrote,
confirms
and
extends
that
consensus.
E
If
we
wanted
to
receive
reach
a
100
rate
that
would
be
about
475
000
filers,
to
the
tune
of
close
to
one
1.1.78
billion
dollars,
a
100
utilization
rate's,
not
realistic.
We
probably
won't
ever
hit
that.
However,
I
don't
think
there's
anything
wrong
with
striving
for
increasing
those
utilization
rates
in
kentucky,
given
the
positive
impacts
of
an
earned
income
tax
credit.
E
One
of
the
things
that
we
might
consider
based
on
examples
in
other
states,
is
engaging
with
a
cabinet
for
health
and
family
services
to
increase
awareness
of
the
earned
income
tax
credit
among
benefit
recipients.
This
is
something
other
states
have
done.
Maine,
for
example,
works
with
their
primary
agency.
That's
involved
with
administering
benefits
to
raise
awareness
among,
amongst
some
of
their
benefit
recipients
that
hey
you
can
access
this
program,
walk
them
through
the
process.
E
Something
we
could
also
do
is
engage
our
own
department
of
revenue
to
increase
awareness
of
the
earned
income
tax,
credit
among
low
to
moderate
income
tax
filers.
The
irs
actually
has
an
earned
income
tax
credit
awareness
day.
I
don't
know
how
successful
it
is,
but
it's
an
example
of
some
of
the
things
you
can
do
to
raise
awareness
of
that
credit
because
again
claiming
that
that
is
one
of
those
things
that
can
help
a
lot
of
these
folks
that
are
dealing
with
a
benefit
cliff
related
challenge.
E
Roughly
28
states
give
or
take
offer
a
state
level
earned
income
tax
credits
that
matches
the
federal
earned
income
tax
credit,
the
way
they
structure.
These
is
all
over
the
place.
There's
a
whole
lot
of
different
ways.
You
can
structure
a
state
level
earned
income
tax
credit.
Some
of
them
are
refundable.
Some
of
them
are
non-refundable.
E
Some
of
them
primarily
play
the
role
of
helping
you
know
filers,
who
do
not
have
children
making
up
that
gap
between
fathers
with
children
versus
filers
without
children,
some
of
them
just
sort
of
add
on
to
the
federal
credit,
to
make
it
more
enticing
something
that
in
kentucky
we
could
kind
of
potentially
play
around
with
is.
E
If
you
take
a
look
at
maybe
the
areas
where
we
phase
out
the
federal
earned
income
tax
credit,
you
might
consider
a
state
earned
income
tax
credit
that
sort
of
levels
that
out
a
little
bit
more
extends
it
out
a
little
bit
further,
but
again,
because
that's
going
to
have
the
most
impact
on
benefit,
cliff
challenges,
there's
a
whole
bunch
of
different
ways
that
you
could
structure
a
state
level
earned
income
tax
credit,
and
so
you
don't
really
necessarily
have
to
be
confined.
By
doing
it
any
one
way.
E
The
other
nice
thing
about
a
state
level
earned
income
tax
credit
and
the
federal
income
income
tax
right
for
that
matter,
is
that,
as
you
think,
about
benefit
cliffs
and
all
these
different
programs
that
we're
talking
about
whether
it's
medicaid
snap
tanf
c-cap
housing
subsidies,
whatever
it
might
be,
it's
going
to
be
really
difficult
to
come
up
with
a
one-size-fits-all
solution
to
smooth
out
those
benefit.
Cliffs
an
earned
income
tax
credit
is
probably
as
close
as
you're
going
to
be
able
to
get
to
identifying
something
that
could
work
with
every
single
program.
E
So
that's
just
something
to
kind
of
think
about.
In
terms
of
what
you
might
be
able
to
do
with
an
earned
income
tax
credit,
I
want
to
talk
a
little
bit
about
child
care
now
and
I'll
try
to
move
quickly
here,
because
I
know
the
next
panel
is
going
to
hit
on
this
harder.
So
in
terms
of
child
care
and
how
it's
intersecting
with
the
workforce
crisis.
E
This
is
a
major
barrier
to
workforce
participation,
as
well
as
worker
retention
in
a
variety
of
different
ways
and
there's
an
abundance
of
data
that
can
help
us
talk
through
this
and
understand
that
problem.
Some
quick
polling
from
the
bipartisan
policy
policy
center
shows
that
upwards
of
one
in
one
in
five
workers
have
actually
left
a
job
due
to
child
care
related
challenges.
E
Some
of
the
chambers
own
survey,
data,
where
we
talked
about
employers
about
some
of
the
key
challenges
that
they're
facing
when
it
comes
to
workforce,
50,
56
of
employers
that
we've
talked
to
mentioned
that
too
many
people
in
their
region
struggle
with
child
care
issues
that
keep
them
from
working.
We
can
also
look
at
census
bureau
data
that
gives
us
a
rough
ballpark
of
the
exact
number
of
people
that
might
be
out
of
the
workforce
due
to
child
care
challenges
upwards
of
around
50
000.
E
That's
a
pretty
big
number,
given
that
that
would
be
the
difference.
An
entire
percentage
point
more
than
a
full
percentage
point
or
labor
force
participation
rate,
so
50
000
is
a
very,
very
sizable.
Number.
Employers
are
responding
to
this
in
a
whole
lot
of
different
ways:
we're
seeing
a
lot
more
conversations
about
on-site
child
care.
Availability.
E
Employers
are
pretty
enthusiastic
in
exploring
that
we're
seeing
a
lot
of
partnerships
with
local
centers
partnerships
with
ccr
and
rs.
So
these
are
child
care
resources
and
referral
agencies.
Household
499,
I
think,
is
going
to
be
a
big
incentive
for
employers
to
be
more
engaged
in
this
space.
We're
seeing
things
such
as
flexible
scheduling,
remote
work,
something
the
chamber
recently
did.
Was
we
released
a
series
of
child
care
resources
for
kentucky
employers
to
consider
utilizing
to
help
them
address
child
care
challenges
for
their
workers?
E
We
released
that
last
week
did
a
webinar
on
it
yesterday
and
that's
responding
in
a
lot
of
ways
to
questions
that
we're
getting
on
a
regular
basis
from
employers
in
terms
of
continuing
challenges.
Child
care
availability
is
is
really
going
to
be
the
name
of
the
game
in
a
lot
of
ways.
Affordability
is
a
major
issue
house
bill.
499
again,
I
think
takes
a
really
great
step
in
addressing
that,
but
capacity-
and
I
know
the
next
panel
is
going
to
hit
on
that
issue,
but
that
that
really
is
a
major
issue.
E
Unexpected
closures
changes
in
hours.
A
lot
of
this
comes
down
to
child
care,
staffing,
we're
dealing
with
a
statewide
workforce
crisis
within
the
child
care
sector.
That
workforce
crisis
is
extremely
severe
and
causing
all
sorts
of
havoc
in
terms
of
access
to
child
care.
It's
also
a
huge
issue
in
terms
of
non-traditional
work
schedules,
so
if
you're
a
second
or
third
shift
worker
and
you
need
to
access
child
care,
it's
going
to
be
very,
very,
very
difficult
for
you
to
do,
and
then,
of
course,
things
such
as
cost
and
also
competition
with
other
benefits.
E
Childcare
benefits
is,
is
one
type
of
employer-provided
benefit.
We
also
have
healthcare
benefits.
Retirement
accounts,
leave
programs,
education,
tuition,
assistance,
there's
a
whole
range
of
different
benefits,
and
some
employers
are
finding
that
certain
types
of
benefits
work
really
well
for
the
type
of
workforce.
They
want
to
track
and
retain
other
benefits,
don't
work
so
well,
and
so
those
those
are
things
that
will
be
calculated
into
an
employer's
decision-making
process.
E
In
terms
of
policy
considerations,
we
did
package
a
list
of
recommendations
for
the
early
childhood
education
task
force
to
consider.
I
can
send
that
to
this
task
force
as
well,
so
you
all
could
be
aware
of
some
of
those
some
of
those
recommendations
that
we
have,
but
this
includes
things
such
as
stabilizing
our
childcare
assistance
program,
which
is
right
now
heavily
propped
up
by
federal
federal
relief
dollars
that
are
going
to
run
out.
E
It
could
be
a
really
big
issue.
There
is
a
business
partnership
grants
program,
operated
by
the
cabinet
for
health
and
family
services
that
helps
incentivize
employers
to
offer
on-site
child
care
or
become
more
engaged
in
that
space.
That's
a
great
program
that
we're
hoping
to
see
expanded,
there's
some
employer
provided
there's
the
employer
provided
childcare
tax
credit,
that's
the
federal
tax
credits,
that's
another
thing.
We
might
consider
leveraging
to
increase
access
and
then,
of
course,
addressing
the
child
care
workforce
crisis
itself.
That's
going
to
be
a
major
key
issue
to
think
through.
E
A
F
Thank
you,
mr
chairman.
Mr
all,
now
I'm
I'm
a
fan
of
the
earned
income
tax
credit.
I
think
it's
a
very
good
thing.
As
for
the
reasons
that
you've
stated
here
today,
I
I
guess
one
concern
I've
had
and,
and
frankly,
I've
seen
it
from
personal
experience.
I've
had
a
sister
that
you
know
has
had
a
substance,
abuse
problem
and
living
with
a
guy.
That
really
wasn't
that
great
of
a
person
had
three
kids
and
and
not
that
they're,
not
smart.
F
I
mean
they
learned
to
game
the
system
pretty
well,
they
would
work
until
they
figured
out
what
they
had
to
do
to
get
h
r
block,
and
I
mean
to
be
a
race
to
get
the
tax
refund
at
the
end
of
the
year
and
in
a
as
a
lawyer
in
a
divorce
practice.
That's
99
of
the
time.
You'll
see
people
fighting
who
gets
to
to
claim
the
the
refund
has.
F
Has
there
been
any
look
at
maybe
reforming
it
to
where
it's
maybe
more,
on
a
month-by-month
basis
to
where
it
and
is
paid
out
over
time
based
upon
maybe
what
they
have
done
the
previous
year
to
encourage
more
sustainable
long-term
employment
within
the
economy
and
and
make
it
kind
of
a
continuous
reward.
E
Yes,
there's
been
a
whole
host
of
different
reforms
that
have
been
considered
to
their
earned
income
tax
credit.
I
think
the
one
that
you
just
brought
up
is
arguably
one
of
the
most
important
ones
to
consider
because,
as
you
said,
a
lot
of
people
look
at
that
as
just
a
tax
refund.
It's
a
big
lump
sum
that
they
get
potentially
a
year
out
from
when
their
earnings
might
change,
and
so
that
kind
of
changes
perceptions
of
how
that
fits
into
an
individual's
larger
income
over
time.
E
I
think
the
federal
government
has
experimented
with
this
recently
with
the
child
tax
credit.
It
was
not
the
smoothest
roll
out,
because
one
of
the
things
you
saw
happening
is
families
claiming
it
and
then
finding
out
that
they
actually
ended
up
not
being
eligible,
and
so
when
they
did
their
filings
the
following
year.
They
ended
up
owing
some
of
that
money
back.
E
I
actually
saw
this
happen
with
my
brother,
and
I
told
him
if
you're
not
eligible
for
this
thing,
don't
claim
it,
but
he
claimed
it
and
then
he
owed
it
all
back
and
he
he's
a
whole
situation.
But
yes,
I
do
think
that
that
would
be
a
wise
way
to
structure
that
program
at
the
state
level.
E
There's
nothing
to
stop
you
from
doing
that
now.
I
think
dor
would
have
to
work
really
hard
to
figure
out
how
to
do
it
and
of
course,
as
I
mentioned
before,
a
state
income
income
tax
credit
depending
how
you
structure
it
could
be
very,
very
expensive,
but
I
I
think
you're
you're,
absolutely
right,
the
other.
You
know
big
reforms
that
have
been
mentioned
with
their
income
tax.
Reddit
is
whether
or
not
you
know
how
to
handle
childless
filers.
E
You
know,
should
they
have
a
lower
rate
than
a
significantly
lower
rate
as
they
currently
do
and
compared
to
filers
with
children,
and
that
again,
I
think
reforming
that
tax
credit
has
attracted
a
lot
of
bipartisan.
Attention
would
not
be
surprised
to
see
big
changes
to
it
within
the
next
decade,
because
it
is
recognized
as
a
as
a
valuable
tool
in
regards
to
the
types
of
issues
that
we're
talking
about.
F
Brief
follow-up
me,
mr
chairman,
I
I
think
the
other
thing
that
you
know
you
notice
as
well
is
a
lot
of
these
people
will
run
down
to
these
quick
tax,
preparation
facilities
and
they're
kind
of
losing
part
of
that
advantage
by
getting
that
immediate
refund.
Sometimes
you
know
maybe
25
30
percent
of
that
benefit,
and
you
know
if
it
was
restructured.
I
think
that
you
know
it
could
potentially
provide
more
like.
I
think
our
goal
in
this
committee
is
to
try
to
find
a
way
for
the
dignity
of
work
and
sustainable
living.
F
I
mean
that
that's
my
goal
on
this
committee
and-
and
I
think
child
care
is
definitely
a
part
of
that
you
know,
but
wages
are
something
too
I
mean.
Obviously
I
guess
there's
a
key
of
trying
to
find
a
way
to
increase
wages
without
increasing
inflation.
I
think
you
know,
I
don't
think
the
last
administration
had
a
way
to
do
that.
F
This
one
really
doesn't,
but
you
know,
there's
also
some
some
good
statistics
that
show,
though,
that
having
a
parent
at
the
home
does
provide
for
more
sustainable
mental
health
amongst
children.
I
don't
think
that's
something
we
want
to
lose
in
this
conversation
that
essentially
forcing
everybody
in
the
workforce
isn't
necessarily
a
good
thing.
I
mean
somebody,
you
know
a
parent
at
home,
providing
you
know,
part
of
that
child
care
themselves
is
a
valuable
thing
in
in
society.
E
Yeah
yeah
and
on
that
that
first
point
about
sort
of
how
people
file
that
that
does
create
a
big
issue,
because
they
can
lose
some
some
instances
fairly
large
chunks
of
that
potential
refund.
There
are
a
lot
of
free
filing
services
out
there.
I
think
I've
already
mentioned
I'll
mention
united
way,
one
more
time.
I
think
they
they've
worked
in
this
space.
A
lot
certain
cities
work
in
that
space
where
they
offer
free
filing,
I
will
say,
earned
income
tax
credit
it
it's
it's
on
the
1040..
E
So,
whenever
you're
filing
it's,
you
actually
don't
have
to
do
a
separate
form
to
claim
the
earning
top
income
tax
credit,
but
you
do
have
to
file,
and
that
is
arguably
one
of
the
biggest
challenges
you
run
into.
Is
that
a
lot
of
these
folks
that
aren't
claiming
are
probably
not
filing
and
that's
often
where
a
lot
of
these
individuals
tend
to
lose
out
on
it?
So
that's
again
another
one
of
those
reasons.
E
Why
raising
more
awareness
of
this
credit
making
sure
that
every
load
and
moderate
income
worker
in
kentucky
is
aware
of
it
and
helping
them
understand
how
this
fits
into
their
larger
financial
situation?
That's
that's
a
really
valuable
thing
that
we
might
consider
doing
in
kentucky.
C
Thank
you,
charles.
Your
knowledge
on
this
is
probably
deeper
than
anybody
will
talk
to,
but
I
I
do
have
a
question.
You
may
not
be
the
the
person
to
answer
this,
but
you
know
kind
of
going
back
to
your
earlier
example
of
you
know
when
you
all
were
touring
kentucky.
C
You
had
talked
with
people
who
had
you
know,
couldn't
take
a
raise
because
it
was
going
to
interfere
with
their
benefits,
particularly
on
the
child
care
portion
of
it,
assuming
that
these
workers
have
the
best
information
to
where
they're
they're
making
the
best
financial
decision
for
their
family.
C
C
What
is
there
anything
in
place
now
to
where
they
can?
You
know
that
safety
net
still
there
or
how
hard
is
that
to
cross
back
and
forth
on.
E
E
I
know
sarah
van
over
here
might
be
able
to
talk
specifically
to
c-cap,
but
to
my
knowledge
you
can
go
back
and
and
reclaim
c-cap
if
you
have
an
income
change
and,
of
course,
c-cap's
a
really
important
program
to
talk
about
this,
because
that's
your
largest
financial
loss,
often
times
with
a
benefit
cliff.
E
So
I'm
not
aware
of
any
sort
of
restriction
that
would
keep
you
from
going
back
to
that
benefit,
so
that
might
be
another
one
of
those
places
where
it's
it's
kind
of
an
awareness
issue
of
letting
folks
know
that,
once
you
step
outside
of
this
this
world
of
receiving
benefits,
you
could
probably
go
back
to
it
if
you
need
to
and
that
social
safety
net
doesn't
just
disappear.
E
Now
with
that
being
said,
I
do
believe
there
are
some
programs
that
offer
that
do
have
some
lifetime
caps,
but
that
would
apply.
They
would
need
to
understand
that
applies
regardless
of
whether
or
not
they
go
into
you
know:
full-time
employment,
gainful
employment
or
not
that
lifetime
cap
would
still
be
there.
A
I
have
a
couple
of
questions
on
this
and
this
may
be
a
better
question
for
our
next
speakers,
but
I'm
going
to
start
with,
you
feel
free
to
pass
it
and
pass
it
on
to
them.
If
you
want,
there's
been
a
lot
of
studies
in
that
you've
referenced
here
and
I
know
other
otherwise
about
the
impact
of
child
care
needs
on
parents.
A
But
I
know
I
imagine
this
is
the
case
statewide,
but
I
know
it's
a
case
in
my
more
rural
district,
where
we
don't
have
a
lot
of
child
care.
Centers
and
those
child
care
burdens,
sometimes
fall
on
parents
or
grandparents
and
great-grandparents,
many
of
whom
are
my
age
and
are
still
in
their
earnings
cycle.
Have
we
done
anything
to
study
the
impact
of
grandparents
staying
home
and
keeping
kids
as
opposed
to
working
for
their
benefit?
E
So
otherwise,
you're
kind
of
looking
at
the
impact
on
say
like
older
workers.
Yes,
I
don't
know
of
any
specific
studies
on
that.
E
I'd
have
to
look
a
little
bit
at
you
know,
labor
force
participation
for
older
workers,
but
I
do
think
that
problem
makes
a
lot
of
sense
to
me
where
you
could
have
a
lot
of
families
where
you
know
potentially
there's
upwards
of
three
potential
adult
workers
in
that
equation,
where
you
have
the
two
immediate
parents
and
then
a
grandparent
and
then
ultimately,
that
downward
pressure
on
the
labor
force
ends
up
falling
on.
You
know
a
grandparent,
so
I
think
that
that
is
a
entirely
realistic
scenario.
E
E
I'd
have
to
go,
look
and
see
if
there's
an
age
distribution
available
for
that,
and
I
can
look
at
that
and
see.
If
that's
an
answerable
question,
I
can
just.
A
See
that
they
don't
have
as
many
immediate
needs
and
but
at
the
same
time
they're
not
getting
an
earned
income
tax
credit
for
keeping
their
grandchildren
or
anything
like
that.
But
then
they're
compromising
their
financial
security
later
on
in
life
by
not
having
enough
money
built
up
for
for
retirement.
So.
A
E
If
you
could
answer
that
right
now,
you
know
our
message
on
that
is:
there's
not
going
to
be
one
factor
that
explains
that
retirement
is
going
to
be
a
really
big
one,
though
there
are
a
lot
of
people
that
have
left
the
workforce,
and
there
was
a
period
of
time
in
the
sort
of
coming
out
of
the
pandemic,
where
we
had
a
lot
of
folks
who
retired
and
they
were
coming
back.
That
has
slowed
down
dramatically.
E
So
retirement
is
going
to
be
a
huge
factor
in
that
you
do
still
have
based
on
census,
bureau
data
folks,
who
don't
want
to
come
back
into
work
due
to
issues
related
to
the
pandemic
and
the
potential
threats
that
the
you
know,
coven
might
cause
to
their
own
personal
health,
that
that
is
something
that
still
shows
up
going
back
to
child
care.
We
have
seen
an
enormous
loss
of
child
care
providers,
not
only
in
the
state
but
nationwide,
and
that
is
another
one
of
those
factors.
E
So
that's
that's
been
an
on
onward
or
an
ongoing
problem,
so
I
think
there's
a
multitude
of
factors
that
go
into
why
we
have
such
an
enormous
gap
between
the
number
of
jobs
that
are
available
versus
the
number
of
individuals
actively
seeking
work,
and
you
know
the
chamber.
The
the
core
message
we've
been
talking
about
is
making
sure
we're
doing
everything
we
can
to
to
remove
potential
barriers
to
work.
The
other
thing
to
keep
in
mind
you
know
personal
savings
is
still
pretty
high.
E
We,
you
know
folks
received
a
lot
of
federal
stimulus,
other
forms
of
stimulus
throughout
the
course
of
the
year,
we're
still
not
paying
student
loans.
I
don't
know
if
that's
changing
today
or
not,
but
that
has,
I
think,
enabled
a
lot
of
folks
to
be
in
a
position
to
where
it
might
be
more
financially
viable
than
it
used
to
to
to
not
have
to
be
actively
seeking
work
so
again,
multitude
of
factors
I
think
bearing
down
on
why
that
gap
is
so
large.
A
A
couple
other
questions
on
this
when
you
were
talking
about
the
average
weekly
hours
and
that
increasing
there
has
to
be
some
corresponding
problems.
With
this.
I
know
I've
had
a
lot
of
discussions
with
employers
and
employees
and
floor
managers
that
are
now
working
working,
a
lot
of
people
60-plus
hours
a
week
to
keep
production
because,
in
their
400-500
employee
plan,
they're
down
180
workers.
A
Are
we
seeing
any
problems
or
is
there
any
way
to
track
the
problems
where
people
just
like
for
lack
of
airway,
putting
it
get
overwhelmed
with
the
situation
and
being
tired
of
working
seven
days
a
week
and
missing
out
on
some
of
their
family
life
and
everything?
Are
we
seeing
some
retraction
of
our
stable
workforce
because
of
the
pressures
we're
putting
on.
E
Them
burnout
is
a
major
issue
and
I
think
burnout
is
playing
out
in
a
number
of
different
industries,
but
there's
a
lot
of
jobs
that
are
open
right
now,
and
so,
if
you're
doing
a
job
that
you
don't
particularly
like,
and
you
have
marketable
skills,
you
do
not
have
to
do
that
job
anymore.
You
can
very
easily
transition
to
another
job
opportunity
or
maybe
compensation's
better
or
it's
it's
a
different
working
condition.
Maybe
you
don't
want
to
work
outside
in
100
degree,
weather
anymore.
E
You
there's
a
lot
of
mobility
with
that
being
said,
we
still
do
need
those
jobs
that
a
lot
of
people
might
be
moving
away
from,
and
so
yeah
I
think
burnout
is,
is
a
really
key
issue
and
they
kind
of
build
on
that
point,
a
little
bit
more.
I
think
employers
are
responding
to
those
labor
force
shortages
in
a
whole
bunch
of
different
ways,
not
just
by
trying
to
increase
productivity
of
the
current
workforce
that
they
have.
E
We
are
seeing
some
pretty
strong
survey
data
showing
big
increase
in
investments
in
automation
and
looking
for
ways
to
automate
processes
which
will
have
an
effect
in
the
long
term
on
things
like
workforce
participation
and
the
nature
of
jobs
that
currently
exist,
and
a
lot
of
that
is
in
a
sense
being
driven
by
just
an
inability
to
find
workers,
and
so,
if
you
can
find
a
way
to
automate
that
process
or
do
without
that
particular
worker.
That's
something!
A
Obviously,
as
an
employer,
you'd
much
rather
be
fully
staffed
to
not
pay
time
and
a
half
in
double
time.
This
appears
to
be
an
issue
that
leaving
market
forces
themselves
can't
correct.
Is
there
anything
from
a
policy
standpoint
that
we
could
look
at
doing
to
help
this
particular
part
of
our
workforce
issue.
A
Broader
question:
I
don't
know
what
I
don't
know
on
this
as
far
as
far
as
helping
employers-
and
you
know
it's
almost
like
we're-
punishing
good
behavior
we're
punishing
the
people
that
come
to
work
every
day,
plus
the
days
that
they
shouldn't
have
to
come
to.
E
Yeah,
I
think
what
it
comes
down
to
is
removing
barriers
for
anybody
who
might
be
able
to
work
wants
to
work
and,
if
there's
something
standing
in
their
way,
that's
preventing
them
from
doing
so.
Look
at
a
policy
remedy
and
see
if
that
is
something
that
policy
can
address.
Child
care
is
going
to
be
a
big,
a
big
driver
in
that
so
thinking
through.
How
can
the
state
optimize
its
investments
in
child
care
to
increase
capacity?
E
We
know
that
that
is
something
that
will
increase
workforce
participation,
substance
use
that
is
having
massive
downward
pressures
on
labor
force.
Participation
in
kentucky
university
did
a
study
on
this
estimating
upwards
of
50
000
people
might
be
not
participating
in
the
workforce
just
because
of
opioid
abuse,
just
opioid
abuse
setting
aside
other
forms
of
substances.
E
Those
are
very
real
barriers
to
workforce
participation
that
we
kind
of
think
about
abstractly,
sometimes
but
left
unchecked.
Those
will
cy
those
types
of
issues
will
siphon
more
and
more
individuals
out
of
the
workforce,
and
when
we
have
fewer
people
in
the
workforce,
the
folks
that
are
participating
they
are.
They
are
going
to
be
under
a
lot
of
strain
and
anxiety,
because
employers
are
going
to
be
trying
to
get
as
much
out
of
them
as
they
can
now
they're
going
to
be
rewarding
those
folks
that
are
participating
in
the
workforce.
A
A
Just
for
the
just
for
the
reasons
that
we've
discussed
or
is
there
kind
of
a
blend
where
there
are
just
a
lot
of
jobs
that,
by
their
very
nature,
are
part-time,
a
lot
of
the
child
care
jobs,
I
know,
are
maybe
not
a
full
40
hour
a
week.
Child
care.
This.
E
So
I
don't
know
if
there's
been
anything,
that's
changed
significantly,
so
I
think
before
I
would
offer
an
opinion
on
that.
I'd
want
to
see
a
little
more
if
kentucky
is
exceptional
in
any
way
in
terms
of
maybe
we
rely
more
on
part-time
work
versus
full-time
work.
Obviously
you
know
when
we
dig
into
this
issue.
I
think
the
charge
of
this
task
force
does
tie
into
that,
because,
right
now
we
do
see
a
desire
on
the
part
of
employers
to
transition
folks
from
part-time
to
full-time
employment.
E
As
with
everything,
it's
probably
going
to
be
a
multitude
of
different
factors,
but
I
want
to
look
into
that
a
little
more
before
I
give
you
a
harder
answer.
A
You
mentioned
on
moving
past
85
of
smi
that
there
was
a
waiting
period
and
you
would
address
that
later.
Oh.
E
It's
a
waiting
period,
there's
a
transition
period
up
until
recently.
I
believe
it's
a
three
month
transition
period.
Now
it's
a
six
month
transition
period,
which
is
my
understanding.
So
once
you
you
know,
once
you
sort
of
pass
that
threshold,
you
don't
immediately
lose
that
benefit.
You
do
have
a
bit
of
a
transition.
E
E
It
gives
them
some
time
to
adapt
to
that
transition
and
to
plan
for
it,
but
once
that
six-month
threshold
is
passed,
I
don't
think
they
they're
suddenly
going
to
find
another
six
thousand
dollars
of
income.
However,
again,
if
you
go
back
to
something
like
your
earned
income
tax
credit,
you
can
find
six
thousand
dollars
in
earning
earned
income
tax
credits,
so
that
is
one
of
those
places
again
where
I
think
that
particular
program
can
be
real
helpful
for
those
types
of
families
that
are
in
those
situations.
A
Know
kind
of
to
senator
wheeler's
earlier
point.
This
seems
to
be
a
cash
flow
issue
for
a
lot
of
families
as
well.
The
graduated
tax
credit
helps
some
but
it'd
be
nice
to
be
able
to
spread
the
cash
flow
for
earned
income
tax
credit
out
over
12
months.
A
On
that,
following
up
on
a
wait
period,
we
talked
some
right
at
the
beginning
of
the
questioning
period
about
whether,
if
an
employee
from
josh
from
representative
bray's
question
whether
employee,
that
loses
some
income
and
falls
back
through
that
cliff,
they
could
go
back
and
be
eligible
for
those
benefits
against
what
we
think
is
there
a
waiting
period
for
that
before
those
benefits
pick
back
up,
because
then
you
have
an
employee
that
loses
a
significant
amount
of
income
for
for
a
job
reason
and
then
there's
a
gap
before
those
benefits.
A
E
If
there's
a
weight
gap,
sarah
van
over
is
the
right
person
to
answer
that
question.
Someone
who's
managed
that.
F
Charles
have
have
there
been
any
men
and
I
don't
been
any
studies
to
show
essentially
maybe
like
what
a
let's
just
take
say:
a
family
of
three.
You
know
same
single
parent
with
two
children,
what
their
average
expenses
are
and
look
at
that
you
know-
and
you
probably
have
to
you-
know,
tweak
it
down,
maybe
by
geographically
region
and
cost
of
living,
to
see
what
exactly
you
know.
They
need
to
live
a
average
lifestyle
so
to
speak
if
they're,
working
and
and
kind
of
adjust
that
benefit
figure
to
where
if
they
get
up
to.
F
Let's
just
say
it's
fifty
thousand
dollars
and
she's
got
a
job
or
he's
got
a
job.
That's
making
thirty
six
thousand
dollars
that
you
know
that.
There's
a
twenty
four
thousand
dollars
worth
of
public
assistance
that
they
could
get,
whereas
if
they
move
down
you
know,
maybe
adjust
it
on
an
annual
basis
to
kind
of
get
people
to
that
sweet
spot.
So
to
speak,
but
you
know-
and
I
mean
you
know
it
may
be
too
complicated
to
get
there.
F
You
know
a
quarterly
basis
annual
basis
to
try
to
keep
folks
in
the
workforce.
You
know
reward
them
for
working
to
get
them
to
that
spot.
You
know
not
necessarily
they're
going
to
be
sitting
at
home,
drawing
a
check
but
to
get
them
to
a
spot
to
where
they
can
live.
A
a
moderately
comfortable
lifestyle,
with
with
assistance
of
these
programs.
E
E
E
Here's
here's,
what
a
reasonable
cost
of
living
should
be
now
without
within
all
those
you-
and
I
could
kind
of
poke
through
that,
because
lifestyles
are
different
and
we
might
disagree,
but
you
can
still
average
all
those
things
out
to
say.
Here's
how
much
it
cost
to
you
know
live
sustainably
in
this
county
at
this
time.
So,
yes,
that's,
that's
all
absolutely
doable.
E
I
think
one
of
the
problems
you
all
are
going
to
run
into,
though,
when
it
comes
to
doing
things
like
smoothing
out
a
benefit
cliff
and
setting
a
lot
of
these
parameters
to
where
maybe
they
hit
certain
income
levels
is
a
lot
of
that's
going
to
fall
outside
the
control
of
the
general
assembly,
because
a
good
degree
of
it's
going
to
be
dictated
by
federal
federal
law
and
federal
rules,
and
so
that
that's
going
to
be
a
very,
very
difficult
thing.
When
it
comes
to
smoothing
out
these
cliffs
and
so
some
of
the
programs.
E
F
And
believe
me,
I
completely
understand
how
how
difficult
the
federal
government
could
be
about
some
of
this
stuff.
We're
having
that
issue,
and
you
know,
obviously
we're
going
to
be
gaveling
in
at
noon.
To
address
the
flooding
and
part
of
the
problem.
Is
you
know,
dredging
the
creeks
well
the
corps
of
engineers
through
the
waters
of
the
americas
act?
You
know
because
there's
some
you
know
crawdads
or
some
indiana
bats.
Won't
let
you
dig
out
the
the
creeks,
which
would
you
know,
provide
for
the
free
flow
of
water.
F
So
I
mean
I
think
that
there's
we've
kind
of
lost
the
concept
of
federalism
in
in
the
in
the
concept
somewhat.
You
know,
so
obviously
it's
going
to
take
some
work
with
our
federal
partners,
but,
yes,
I
would
be
interested
to
see
what
can
we
do
on
a
state
level?
F
You
know
to
to
work
with
some
of
these
programs
to
create,
like
you
say,
a
a
flexible
safety
net
system
that
you
know
allows
people
to
kind
of
you
know
say
not
live
their
best
lives,
but
live
a
sustainable
life
that
that
you
know
helps
to
lift
folks
out
of
poverty
in
the
long
term.
E
And
that
is
one
of
those
places
where
kind
of
thinking
through
an
earned
income
tax
credit
can
be
beneficial
because
the
other
thing
you
have
to
deal
with
is
you
know.
A
lot
of
these
programs
are
going
to
have
different
financial
thresholds
and
it's
very
hard
to
get
those
all
those
to
line
up
perfectly,
whereas
something
like
an
earned
income
tax
credit
can
kind
of
step
in
and
address
everything
at
once.
If
you
structure
it
right,
so
that's
another
advantage
to
a
tool
like
that.
G
You
know,
I
think
that
there's
a
wealth
of
information
that,
with
a
calculator
we
can
get
in
front
of
people
that
need
that
information
and
it
even
the
last
task
force
meeting
in
this
task
force.
Meeting
it's
kind
of
come
in
question
forms
but
is
is,
is
very
true
that
there's
a
lot
of
programs
that
some
folks
may
not
know
that
they,
you
know,
are
able
to
access
and
they're
able
to
use
and
would
be
very,
very
beneficial
to
them.
G
But
I
do
have
a
question
on
the
tax
credit
and,
and
I
think
you'd
be
able
to
hopefully
advise
us
or
answer
this
in
the
best
way.
But
with
the
tax
credit,
you
know
great
ideas
and
good
purpose
as
we
as
a
state
are
looking
at
the
income
tax
and
phasing
that
out
we've
aggressively
made
that
turn
and
went
to
that
to
get
it
to
zero.
How
does
that
look?
You
know
that
was
a
policy
suggestion
for
you.
So
how
does
that?
G
E
That's
a
phenomenal
question
short
answer.
Is
you
can
absolutely
still
do
it?
The
state
of
washington,
for
example,
that
is
a
zero
income
tax
state
they've,
recently
implemented
an
earned
income
tax
credit
key.
There
is
refundability
because,
obviously,
if
you
don't
have
a
state
income
tax,
you
then
have
no
state
income
tax
liability
against
which
to
claim
a
credit,
so
that
would
also
increase
the
value
of
that
earned
income
tax
credit
quite
a
bit
because
it
would
be
100,
refundable.
E
Everything
would
would
go
you're
simply
essentially
just
using
the
department
of
revenue
to
funnel
cash
to
to
those
those
particular
workers.
So
it's
absolutely
still
doable.
I
don't
know
how
washington
has
their
set
up
specifically,
but
I
know
they
are
still
using
their
revenue
cabinet
to
administer
it.
You
would
essentially
just
work
through
them.
E
Do
sort
of
like
a
fake
filing
almost
since
you're,
technically,
not
filing
anything.
So
in
other
words,
it's
it's
still
very
much
doable.
I
would
add
to
that:
there's
there's
other
states.
Indiana
has
a
state
earned
income
tax
credit
january
2023
indiana
will
have
a
2.99
individual
income
tax.
They
have
a
deep
interest
in
phasing
out
their
income
tax
as
well,
so
other
states
are
in
this
similar
situation.
It's
100
doable,
though
you
could
still
absolutely
implement
some
level
of
state
earned
income
tax
credit,
even
if
you
don't
have
an
individual
income
tax.
A
Charles
thank
you
for
your
time
today.
We
appreciate
all
your
hard
work
and
coming
and
presenting
this,
and
thanks
for
your
patience
and
working
through
a
bunch
of
questions.
Thank
you.
Next,
we
have
some
folks
coming
in
on
the
child
care
cliff
effect.
If
you
all
come
on
on
up
and
introduce
yourself
for
the
record,
please
and
benjamin
I'm
doing
that,
because
I
don't
want
to
butcher
your
name.
So
I'm
going
to
let
you
you
you,
you
take
the
lead
on
that.
A
B
No,
it's
not!
Okay!
There
we
go
how's
that
yeah,
that's
better
I'll,
do
take
two
how's
that
I
certainly
want
to
thank
you
all
this
morning
for
this
opportunity
to
sit
before
this
august
body,
an
honor
and
a
privilege
to
be
here
and
happy
to
be
here
with
my
friends
and
colleagues.
I
also
want
to
say
thank
you
to
our
friend
and
colleague,
charles
from
the
chamber
who
preceded
us
and
now
I'll
pass
it
to
our
other
two
presenters
here
to
introduce
themselves
as
well.
B
Very
good-
and
my
role
here
this
morning
is
really
to
walk
through
a
brief
overview
of
child
care
in
kentucky.
What
is
it
and
what
are
some
of
the
major
problems
that
are
facing
it
so
you'll
see
before
here
on
this
slide
an
example
of
the
three-legged
stool
of
child
care
offerings
in
kentucky
at
large
one,
your
mom-and-pop
child
care
center,
the
more
commercial
option
number
two,
a
family
child
care
home.
B
The
third
is
certainly
a
smaller
option
and
is
less
often
utilized
throughout
the
commonwealth
and
that's
regulated
family
friend
and
neighbor
care,
which
is
care
from
a
family
friend
or
a
neighbor,
but
still
adhering
to
those
state
rules
and
regulations
as
well.
B
When
we
take
a
look
at
the
availability
of
care
throughout
kentucky,
we'll
see
that
we
have
just
over
600
child
care
centers
and
we'll
see
that
those
numbers
begin
to
drop
from
there
on
to
roughly
240
family
child
care
homes.
Only
about
38,
family
friend
and
neighbor
care,
and
as
we
go
down
to
the
maximum
amount
of
capacity
in
the
state,
we
have
a
capacity
of
roughly
158
200
slots
in
those
child
care
options.
The
important
thing
to
remember
is
that
capacity
does
not
equal
enrollment.
B
While
we
may
have
the
capacity
for
those
children
in
those
slots
and
availability
for
those
working
parents,
that
does
not
necessarily
mean
that
there
are
158
000
children
in
those
seats
currently
for
a
number
of
reasons
that
we
will
go
through
today,
so
first
and
perhaps
most
jarring.
I
want
us
to
take
a
look
at
the
three
graphics
on
the
slide
in
front
of
us.
Take
a
look
at
the
center
graphic.
This
is
the
cost
for
center-based
infant
care.
B
Eleven
thousand
dollars,
two
hundred
eleven
thousand
two
hundred
dollars,
compare
that
with
the
cost
of
public,
four-year
university
tuition
at
ten
thousand
seven
hundred
dollars
and
then
compare
that
with
the
average
annual
mortgage
payment
of
just
over
thirteen
hundred
dollars.
B
Now,
when
we
talk
about
a
support
like
ccap,
it's
important
to
remember
that
this
is
a
support
that
is
propping
up
numerous
working
parents
throughout
kentucky
and
largely
from
middle
class
backgrounds.
I
don't
know
about
you,
but
when
I
look
at
that
middle
number,
eleven
thousand
dollars
for
center-based
care
for
an
infant.
I
can't
afford
that.
Maybe
some
of
you
can't
afford
that
that
would
be
great.
B
This
graphic
also
helps
to
break
down
the
cost
of
care
in
terms
of
percentages
for
both
a
child
care
center
and
that
family
child
care
home.
We
can
see
what
percent
of
income
is
spent
going
down
this
list.
If
you
take,
for
example,
two
children
with
a
single
parent,
that's
about
68
of
that
parent's
income
going
for
child
care
services.
B
Also,
when
we
take
a
look
here
at
ccap,
there
are
a
few
important
distinctions
that
I
want
to
make
number
one.
When
we
talk
about
ccap,
it
is
a
workforce
support
in
order
to
receive
ccap
eligible,
an
eligible
parent
must
be
working,
be
in
school
or
actively.
Looking
for
work,
we
like
to
say
that
child
care
is
the
workforce
behind
the
workforce.
It
enables
working
parents
every
single
day
to
go
out
and
be
contributing
members
of
this
commonwealth.
B
We
also
talk
about
that.
It's
important
to
remember
that
during
the
pandemic,
for
example,
over
45
percent
of
parents
in
a
statewide
survey
indicated
that
someone
in
the
family
had
quit
a
job
did
not
take
a
job
or
greatly
changed
their
job
due
to
child
care
issues
and
since
the
pandemic,
according
to
the
kentucky
chamber,
over
a
hundred
thousand
kentucky,
women
have
exited
the
workforce
due
to
a
difficulty
in
finding
child
care.
B
Parents
experience
an
average
of
three
thousand
three
hundred
fifty
dollars
per
year
in
lost
income
according
to
the
council
for
for
a
strong
america,
and
that
was
pre
inflation.
You
also
see
a
graphic
here
that
runs
down
a
little
bit
about
what
c-cap
entails
as
far
as
the
number
of
kentuckians
using
it
per
year.
B
So,
as
you
take
a
look
up,
there,
you'll
see
which
counties
are
impacted
by
that,
but
it's
also
important
to
note
that
even
in
jefferson
county,
for
example,
that's
not
classified
as
a
child
care
desert
as
a
county.
There
are
still
urban
and
rural
niches
throughout
the
commonwealth,
parts
of
jefferson
county,
for
example,
being
an
urban
area
that
still
could
be
classified
a
child
care
desert.
B
One
item
that
I
want
to
tip
you
off
to
today
is
a
coming
survey
that
will
touch
on
an
item
that
charles
articulated
quite
well
and
that's
the
coming
post
arpa
cliff
those
funds
from
the
american
rescue
plan,
those
federal
dollars
that
are
due
to
run
out
here
by
the
2024
session.
If
not
in
the
2023
session,
those
dollars
went
a
long
way
into
stabilizing
the
child
care
sector.
B
In
the
midst
of
the
pandemic
and
beyond,
just
some
quick
baseline
data
to
share,
we
do
have
a
survey
of
fragile
ecosystem
four,
which
is
a
continuation
of
those
surveys.
The
pritchard
committee
and
our
team
of
statewide
partners
facilitated
throughout
the
arc
of
the
pandemic
just
to
date.
In
this
most
recent
survey,
that
is
still
active,
we've
had
over
480
responses
from
75
kentucky
counties.
B
57
percent
of
respondents
to
date
have
said
that
they
are
not
fully
staffed.
70
said
that
they
need
to
hire
more
staff
to
serve
in
an
additional
11
to
20
children
and
most
jarringly
55
percent,
so
well.
Over
half
of
respondents
to
date
indicated
that
centers
would
now
be
closed
without
that
federal
stabilization
funding
and
how
it
was
very
well
distributed
from
our
state
government,
70
percent
indicated
that
they
would
have
to
raise
costs
and
40
percent
said
that
they
would
have
to
cut
the
wages
of
their
child
care
central
workers.
D
All
right,
I'm
going
to
talk
a
little
bit
about
the
child
care
cliff
for
our
families,
as
well
as
the
federal
funding
cliff
that
is
coming
and
then,
when
you
do
have
questions,
as
charles
indicated,
I
can
help
with
questions
on
the
child
care
assistance
program
as
well.
Right
now.
The
average
cost
of
child
care
in
kentucky
is
significant,
but
it
does
vary
from
urban
rural
areas.
D
D
So
this
is
the
average
cost,
but
these
numbers
were
recorded
in
research
from
the
university
of
kentucky
pre-pandemic
and
there
has
been
a
significant
inflation
rate
with
these
numbers
in
the
past
three
years,
so
we're
looking
at
average
cost
of
an
infant
placement
prior
to
the
pandemic
around
200
per
week.
D
So,
if
you
think
of
a
family
who
is
getting
child
care
assistance,
most
families
have
a
copay
of
some
kind.
So
they
look
at
the
family's
income
level
and
the
closer
that
they
get
to
the
the
certification
point.
Then
they
may
have
a
larger
co-pay,
whereas
families
who
have
a
higher
poverty
rate
closer
to
the
federal
poverty
line,
would
may
be
covered
completely.
D
D
So
taking
that
time
period,
the
federal
government
requires
with
the
subsidy
program
that
families
have
12-month
eligibility,
so
they
qualify
and
then
they
have
12
months
that
they
stay
on
the
program
and
then
they
come
back
in
to
to
re-qualify
based
on
their
current
income
level
at
the
time
of
the
reauthorization
visit.
If
the
family
is
no
longer
eligible,
then
they
would
have
a
six-month
window
where
they
would
get
50
percent
of
the
c-cap
income
over
that
six-month
time
period.
D
D
The
other
cliff
that
we
would
like
to
describe
is
the
funding
cliff
that
is
coming
up
from
the
federal
funds.
So
just
with
the
american
rescue
plan,
the
state
of
kentucky
was
given
763
million.
Now
that
was
designated
into
two
specific
buckets.
The
largest
portion,
470
million,
was
to
be
given
to
the
providers
in
sustainability
payments.
We
had
child
care
providers
that
were
two
to
three
months
behind
on
their
mortgage
that
had
bills
significant
bills
that
they
had
to
pay
back.
D
They
had
taken
out
small
business
loans
and
when
you
have
a
margin
of
almost
no
profit,
you
don't
have
a
way
that
you
can
pay
a
new
loan
payment
every
month.
So
a
lot
of
providers
had
to
do
back
payment
with
that,
and
then
they
used
additional
funding
to
help
supplement
the
income.
Child
care
providers
right
now
are
really
struggling
to
compete
with
the
retail
industry
and
the
hospitality
industry.
Because
all
of
those
you
know
if
you're
working
at
arby's,
your
wages
might
start
at
15
an
hour
now.
D
Child
care
in
kentucky
has
always
hovered
close
to
minimum
wage
and
a
lot
of
programs,
and
we've
tried
to
stimulate
those
wages
up
to
ten
dollars
an
hour
or
even
thirteen
dollars
an
hour
for
a
very
hard
working
group
of
individuals.
But
it's
still
a
very
low
income
job
now
go
back
for
just
a
second
thank
you.
The
second
pot
of
money
was
flexible
funding
and
it
lasts
a
little
bit
longer.
It's
293
million
dollars.
D
The
largest
portion
of
that
was
used
to
help
the
child
care
assistance
program
and
there
are
different
ways
that
it's
been
used
along
with
increasing
eligibility
so
initially,
prior
to
the
pandemic,
you
had
to
be
at
160
percent
of
the
federal
poverty
level
to
qualify
in
two
different
stages.
The
cabinet
moved
that
up
to
200
percent
of
the
federal
poverty
level
and
now
to
85
of
the
state,
media
and
income
level
to
qualify.
We
also
opened
that
that
was,
we've
also
increased
the
the
reimbursement.
D
D
The
the
crux
of
the
issue
is
that
simulating
the
wages
was
necessary
because
the
other
industries
were
also
stimulating
wages.
If,
if
retail
industries
were
going
up
in
cost,
if
grocery
stores
were
paying
more
fast,
food
restaurants
were
paying
more.
We
had
to
pay
our
child
care
providers
more
because
this
is
the
industry
that
supports
all
other
industries.
D
D
The
consequences
of
living
losing
that
cliff
funding
from
the
federal
government
is
including
programs
that
won't
be
able
to
keep
their
wages
and
if
child
care
programs
decrease
their
wages.
I
guarantee
you
that
fast
food,
restaurants,
groceries
retail
stores,
are
not
going
to
decrease
theirs
because
they
have
to
keep
those
in
place
to
to
keep
workers
we'll
see,
programs
that
have
to
make
a
really
hard
choice
in
reducing
staff
wages,
dramatically
increasing
wages
that
families
may
not
be
able
to
afford
or
close,
and
so
there
will
be
a
drastic
decrease
in
child
care.
D
D
Many
working
parents,
particularly
working
moms,
have
to
make
the
decision
if
I'm
paying
this
much
per
month,
if
I'm
paying
over
a
thousand
dollars
a
month,
and
I
only
bring
home
an
extra
hundred
dollars
an
extra
two
hundred
dollars.
Is
it
worth
it
to
be,
apart
from
my
child
that
time
and
pay
all
that
some
families
are
only
working
because
they
need
health
insurance,
so
they
they
basically
turn
their
paycheck
around
to
child
care,
but
they're
worried
about
what
happens
if
they
lose
health,
insurance
and
others
just
say
you
know
it
isn't
worth
it.
D
I'm
gonna
go
ahead
and
stay
home,
but
then
feel
a
great
deal
of
guilt
that
they're
not
contributing
to
the
family
income
and
and
then
there's
a
tough
choice
too.
If
you
are
a
working,
professional,
mother
or
a
working
professional
father,
if
you
leave
the
field
and
you
come
back
six
years
later,
where
will
your
job
be?
You
won't
be
at
the
level
when
you
left
you're
starting
all
over
in
the
workforce
and
that
can
have
a
long-term
effect
on
your
family.
H
Families
providers
workforce
really
have
achieved
in
discussing
what
might
put
us
in
a
better
place
and
lead
us
to
having
a
child
care
sector
that
can
in
fact
grow
to
meet
the
demands
of
our
labor
force
and
our
families
with
young
children.
So
first
on
this
list
would
be
sustaining
the
really
important
improvements
made
to
the
child
care
assistance
program,
with
the
federal
funding
that
came
through
the
federal
aid
packages
and
was
directed
specifically
towards
child
care.
H
Now
this
brings
us
closer,
but
not
all
the
way
to
recognizing
that
way
too
many
kentucky
families
are
vulnerable
to
the
cost
of
child
care
and
too
many
kitchen
table
calculations
are
not
adding
up
to
the
opportunity
to
participate
in
the
workforce.
If
that
is
what's
best
for
the
family,
the
parent
and
their
children,
but
senator
howell
as
you
referenced
earlier,
eligibility
does
not
equal
access.
H
H
This
also
checks
the
box
for
us
for
a
federal
requirement
that
we
have
some
cliff
effect
mitigation
mechanism
because,
as
you've
seen
illustrated,
if
we
do
not
have
something
like
that
in
place,
it's
a
pretty
vertical
drop
in
the
child
care
assistance
program.
Particularly,
I
also
want
to
talk
about
categorical
eligibility.
H
What
we've
found
that
was
perhaps
ironic,
but
not
surprising,
is
one
of
the
industries
that
had
the
toughest
time
actually
increasing
wages,
because
workers
were
so
concerned
and
the
reality
for
them
would
have
been
that
they
lost
their
child
care.
Benefits
was
child
care,
so,
even
as
there
was
the
incentive
to
increase
wages
as
a
result
of
the
sustainability
payments,
many
child
care
teachers
themselves
could
not
take
advantage
of
those
additional
and
much
needed
resources
because
of
the
hit
to
their
child
care
assistance.
H
So
categorical
eligibility
which
will
soon
be
in
place.
The
division
of
child
care
and
with
federal
funds
will
allow
all
child
care
teachers
to
be
eligible
for
the
child
care
assistance
program
so
that
they
could
take
a
modest
raise,
maybe
to
ten
dollars,
maybe
to
thirteen
dollars
and
still
have
their
child
seat
covered
in
child
care
by
ccap.
H
It's
also
beneficial
for
the
providers,
because
providers
work
very
hard
to
give
some
discounted
rate
to
their
employees,
but
that
means
they're
eating
that
cost
and
their
margins
truly
don't
allow
them
to
do
that
without
even
more
significant
financial
risk,
so
maintaining
categorical
eligibility
for
child
care.
Educators
themselves
will
be
critical.
H
These
are
also,
I
would
say,
maintaining
categorical
categorical
eligibility
is
in
context,
a
very
minimal
investment,
but
very
critical,
noting
that
we
need
to
do
something
to
mitigate
the
staffing
crisis
in
child
care.
Unfortunately,
categorical
eligibility
alone
will
not
do
the
trick
for
overcoming
what
we
really
need
to
as
we
see
in
the
child
care
workforce.
So
the
median
annual
income
for
a
child
care
teacher
in
kentucky
is
just
north
of
two
thousand
dollars
a
year
and
candidly,
it's
laughable
to
suggest
that
that
can
compete
with
retail
or
hospitality.
H
There
is
even
a
joke
about
it.
Why
did
the
child
care
educator
cross
the
road
to
get
to
her
second
job,
because
almost
20
of
our
child
care
teachers
in
kentucky,
including
those
who
are
working
full-time,
must
have
a
second
job
just
to
make
ends
meet
in
their
own
home?
So
you've
heard
the
work
of
the
early
childhood
task
force.
H
I
did
some
some
quick
back
of
my
notebook
math
to
suggest
that
if
we've
got
70
of
those
485
providers
responding
to
say
that
they
need
between
11
and
20
staff
members,
even
if
even
if
they
only
needed,
even
if
they
could
only
serve
11
more
children,
that's
30,
that's
3734,
more
children.
H
Those
numbers
are
easy
for
me
to
remember
because
they
both
start
with
six,
but
also
because
they
are
astronomical
in
the
number
of
seats.
We
cannot
open
to
families
right
now,
because
we
do
not
have
the
staff
to
do
it,
so
it
really
is
going
to
take
a
robust
and
thoughtful
and
strategic
optimization
of
investment
to
ensure
that
we
have
wages
and
benefits
that
can
support
our
early
childhood
educators.
H
I
would
also
just
note
finally-
and
you
heard
about
this
as
well
from
dr
all,
but
ensuring
the
success
of
the
employee
child
care
assistance
partnership,
which
was
established
through
representative
hevron's
house
bill
499
in
this
past
session.
That
does
have
the
opportunity
to
provide
a
really
important
bridge-
perhaps
even
more
importantly,
it's
breathing
private
sector
resources
into
child
care
for
the
first
time
in
a
truly
meaningful
way,
and
all
stakeholders
here
must
have
some
skin
in
the
game
as
we're
talking
about
the
sector,
that's
critical
for
all
of
us
in
our
economy
to
thrive.
H
C
Sure,
thank
you
all
so
since
march
2020
do
you
all
have
data
on
how
many
child
care
centers
have
closed.
D
D
We
have
decreased
to
158
000,
just
a
little
over
that.
However,
again
like
ben
said
that
doesn't
indicate
actual
enrollment
every
time
a
center
has
to
close
a
classroom
because
they
don't
have
enough
staff
that
shortens
up
the
number
of
children
that
can
be
served
and
almost
every
center
I
know
has
at
least
one
classroom
closed
due
to
lack
of
staffing,
so
that
number
could
be
considerably
lower.
C
Okay,
may
I
follow
up
and
then
you
had
talked
about
you
know
once
the
kind
of
the
federal
money
starts,
slowing
down
and
drying
up,
because
that
you
anticipate
more
closures.
D
Not
at
this
point,
I
think
the
survey
that
been
talked
about
will
give
us
some
indication.
You
know
initially,
at
the
beginning
of
the
pandemic,
centers
themselves
anticipated
up
to
40
percent,
would
close.
There
were
many
states
that
had
much
greater
losses
than
kentucky.
I
mean
more
programs
closed
in
california
than
kentucky
had
open
to
begin
with,
and
so
some
of
that
has
to
do
with
how
the
cabinet
spent
the
money.
D
There
was
a
dual
effort
both
to
support
centers
with
continued
investments
to
supplement
their
income,
as
well
as
long-term
efforts
that
were
one-time
payments,
like
scholarships
grants
to
open
new
programs.
Things
of
that
nature,
so
that
combination
is
going
to
benefit
kentucky
more
than
other
states
who
might
not
have
used
the
same
type
of
package.
It
really
is
going
to
depend
on
many
factors,
including
what
kind
of
investment
we
give
long
term
many
states
are
using
programs
like
staff,
supplemental
wages.
D
So
if
we
don't
have
high
quality
teachers,
then
we
won't
have
child
care
programs,
and
if
we
don't
pay
them
higher,
then
they
won't
continue
to
be
open,
that
that's
kind
of
the
general
idea,
but
access
is
also
an
issue
where
those
programs
are
that
close
if
they're
in
higher
populated
areas,
if
the
centers
that
are
open
continue
to
close
additional
classrooms
because
they
don't
have
staff
so
due
to
the
variable
amount
of
factors
involved,
it's
hard
to
have
a
concrete
prediction
on
what
those
numbers
could
look
like,
but
I
can
tell
you,
after
several
meetings
in
dc
with
a
large
number
of
states,
to
talk
about
what
we're
all
facing
every
state
is
facing
the
same
kind
of
issues.
C
And
then
just
one
follow-up
statement,
if
that's
okay,
so
I
come
from
a
rural
county
where
we
have
been
blessed
with
you
know:
an
abundance
of
child
care
facilities,
but
one
of
the
things
I
personally
noticed
and
then
in
talking
with
a
lot
of
these
child
care
facilities,
was
you
know
for
the
four
months
that
they
were
mandated
to
shut
down?
C
They
couldn't
recover
and
that's
led
to
a
lot
of
closures,
and
that's
you
know
not
only
were
some
of
those
draconian.
You
know
measures
hurtful
at
that
time.
They're
hurtful
now
as
well,
because
as
jobs
are
becoming
available,
we're
still
seeing
that
child
care
shortage
and
that
child
care
expense
going
up,
because
you
know
it's
a
supply
and
demand
economy,
and
so
that
you
know
the
mandated
closures.
D
C
D
One
of
the
issues
that
surrounds
that
you
said
supply
and
demand,
and
and
in
most
businesses,
I'm
going
to
say
that
supply
and
demand
is
accurate.
You
know
if
you
have
a
need
for
more
shoes
in
a
community
than
the
shoe
store
is
going
to
open
because
they
can
make
money.
The
problem
is
that
child
care
programs
don't
make
money,
so
there
can
be
a
huge
need,
but
a
supply
and
demand
economy
doesn't
work,
because
if
you
know
you're
going
to
open
a
business,
invest
your
life
savings
in
it
and
then
lose
money.
D
It
makes
it
very
hard
to
want
to
open
that
business,
even
though
there
is
a
demand.
The
programs
in
kentucky
that
are
more
financially
stable,
have
some
kind
of
additional
backing
that
goes
along
with
that.
Whether
a
university
backs
them
a
hospital
backs
them.
They
are
a
partnership
with
head
start
and
get
federal
funds.
They
are
programs
like
toyota,
where
somebody
takes
the
loss,
because
it's
a
business
investment
for
their
employees,
but
there
is
a
loss
in
child
care,
no
matter
who
runs
the
business
and
we
have
to
figure
out
who
takes
the
loss.
C
No
you're
absolutely
right
and
when
I
was
mentioning
supply
and
demand,
you
know
the
demand
for
these
vacancies.
The
demand
for
these
spots
is
driving
up
cost.
Yes,
because
there's
so
much
competition
for
them
and
then
you
know
you're
exactly
right.
If
you
know
somebody's
not
associated
with
a
larger
facility
or
a
hospital
university,
they
can't
compete.
D
C
You
know
there's
a
shortage
of
you
know
in
all
the
committees,
I'm
on.
I
hear
about
shortage
in
public
workers,
shortage
employees
shorter
than
fire
shortage
and
nurses
shorter
than
teachers
it's
across
the
board
and
and
child
care
is
not
exempt
from
that
and
you're
exactly
right,
you're
the
program
that
feeds
you
know
that
that
frees
up
workers
to
be
available
to
work,
but
because
of
the
increase
in
cost
from
a
lot
of
these
closures.
H
I
would
also
just
note
that,
as
as
you
did
representative
bray,
that
the
impacts
from
the
pandemic
compounded
existing
fractures
within
the
child
care
sector
kentucky
had
lost
45
of
its
child
care
sector
from
2013
to
before
the
pandemic
started.
So
we
were
already
truly
experiencing
a
child
care
crisis,
and
then
we
faced
mandated
closures,
additional
health
and
safety
costs,
the
challenges
of
parents
feeling
safe
to
bring
their
children
back
to
child
care
and,
of
course,
the
wage
competition
that
steeply
compounded
the
challenges
within
the
child
care
labor
force
itself.
A
Thank
you,
chair
dixon,.
G
Mr
chairman,
a
couple
questions
if
I
may
sure
thank
you
guys
for
for
presenting
so
much
it
a
couple
questions
I
have
one
and
you
kind
of
highlighted
and
touched
on
it.
Just
then
with
the
2013
data.
We
have
that
you
know,
and
there
is
a
task
force,
that's
on
early
childhood,
but
I
would
assume
that
there
is
data
over
the
past
10
years
of
you
know
this
number,
this
11
200,
where
that
is
now
versus
where
it
was
in
13,
the
cost
of.
G
Actually
you
know
enrolling
your
child
and
keeping
your
child
in
child
care,
and
then
I
would.
I
would
also
assume
there
would
be
data
of
what
the
cost
to
those
child
care.
Centers
has
been
from
that
time
frame
on,
and
I
think
if,
if
that
data
is
available,
I
think
it
would
be
good
data.
You
know
to
kind
of
correlate
those
two
to
see.
G
G
D
Okay,
so
when
we
got
the
stabilization
payments
that
really
that
470
million
the
federal
government
gave
us
specifics
when
that
has
to
go
towards
centers.
Now
at
the
time
that
we
received
that
a
lot
of
our
centers
were
down
three
and
four
months
on
their
bills.
D
However,
we
structured
that
the
cabinet
structured
it
in
in
a
tiered
system,
so
everybody
was
gonna,
get
money
based
on
capacity
over
like
a
year
and
a
half
stretch,
nine
payments
that
would
go
out
to
keep
the
centers
afloat,
but
we
did
it
to
incentivize
wages,
so
the
first
tier
was
a
base
payment
on
capacity,
regardless
of
what
you
paid
your
staff.
The
second
tier
was
based
on
capacity,
but
you
would
pay
your
staff
all
staff,
not
just
teachers.
D
Anybody
who
worked
in
that
facility
a
minimum
wage
of
ten
dollars
an
hour
and
you
would
get
ten
percent
more
than
the
first
tier
out
of
the
stabilization
payments,
and
then
there
was
a
third
tier,
paying
staff
a
minimum
of
13
an
hour
where
you
would
get
an
incentive
of
20
more
than
the
base
pay.
So
all
all
child
care
programs
applied
for
those
different
tiers.
D
The
the
largest
tier
that
people
applied
for
was
tier
two
at
a
base
pay
of
ten
dollars
an
hour,
and
there
was
a
fair
amount
that
less
than
a
third
of
the
programs,
but
still
a
decent
amount
that
applied
for
tier
three.
The
idea
was
that
it
would
encourage
programs
to
to
raise
their
wages
while
still
paying
those
back
bills
and-
and
there
was
a
good
amount
of
feedback
that
hey
I'm
trying
to
do
this
and
I'm
making
sure
that
everybody
starts
at
this
pay.
D
D
They
were
so
far
behind
at
that
point
that
they,
they
didn't
feel
like.
They
had
the
security
to
increase
the
wages
plus.
They
were
significantly
concerned
about
what
happened
in
september
2023
when
those
stabilization
payments
were
gone,
so
maybe
they
kept
closer
to
minimum
wage,
but
they
gave
stipends
for
a
bonus.
G
I
think
that
we're
going
to
run
into
another
issue
as
those
wages
raised
like
you,
had
brought
up
initially
in
your
presentation
that
you
end
up
with
individuals
who
are
on
the
cliff
of
what
this
task
force
is
actually
about.
So
it
kind
of
ties
one
and
you
know
hand
in
hand
with
with
an
issue
that's
being
seen
on
the
cliff
side,
but
then
an
issue
now
we're
back
to
the
to
the
employee
or
the
individual.
G
Is
you
know,
that's
a
big
discussion,
but
my
question
is:
is
if
money
and
wages
have
decreased
capacity
in
the
state?
What
is
there
a
target,
regulation
or
regulations
that
you
see
is
the
red
tape
what's
getting
in
the
way
of
our
child
care,
centers
and
then
being
able
to
to
grow
and
develop,
because
we've
seen
a
huge
influx
of
money,
we've
seen
some
wages
go
up,
but
we're
not
seeing
an
expansion.
You
know
of
these
child
care,
centers,
there's
regulation
in
the
state.
What
holding
that
back.
D
The
regulations
within
kentucky
most
of
them
are
based
on
the
federal
requirements.
Kentucky's
child
care
regulations
are
much
lower
in
requirement
than
many
other
states
in
the
u.s.
One
of
the
hallmarks
of
safety.
Basic
bare-bones
safety
in
regulations
is
the
the
adult
how
many
children,
one
adult
can
take
care
of.
At
one
time,
kentucky
has
some
of
the
highest
ratio.
It
has
the
highest
ratio
to
any
state
in
our
area.
D
E
D
Because
I've
had
that
job
before,
but
basically
all
you
have
time
to
do-
is
change
diapers
and
try
and
prevent
children
from
biting
each
other.
There's
not
a
quality
component.
When
you
do
that,
if
kentucky
were
to
take
away
some
of
the
health
and
safety
factors
that
we
have
in
place,
I
can
foresee
a
significant
increase
in
injury
and
the
spread
of
illness
in
our
centers,
because
we
are
behind
in
a
lot
of
the
areas
that
other
states
have
improved
their
health
and
safety
requirements.
As
far
as
the
bare
minimum.
D
H
I
would
say
there
are
some
strategies
we
have
seen
that
are
increasing
the
workforce
and
the
capacity
of
child
care
sectors
in
other
states,
and
those
include
things
like
strategic
wage
supplementation
that
has
really
truly
allowed
for
better
recruitment
and
retention
of
trial
care,
educators,
cost
for
reimbursement
rates
not
based
on
a
market
that
is
not
a
market,
but
on
the
true
cost
of
care.
These
are
strategies
that
we
have
seen
actually
increase
the
supply
of
child
care
to
better
meet
the
demands
of
workforce.
B
And
I
would
also
like
to
add
that
there's
been
a
bevy
of
research
done
that
shows
that,
when
it
comes
to
early
childhood,
education,
low
quality
or
poor
quality
early
childhood
education
can
actually
actually
be
damaging
in
the
life
of
a
young
child
when
it
comes
to
access
to
early
education.
Quality
is
really
key,
is
dr
van
over
stressed
in
terms
of
health
and
safety,
but
also
in
early
brain
development.
G
Well,
I
I
appreciate
that,
and
I
may
may
clarify,
if
I
may,
I
know
charles
had
brought
up
in
his
presentation
previously
about
some
of
the
local
regulations
and,
and
you
know,
employers
not
been
able
to
open
up
child
care
centers
of
their
own
and-
and
I
probably
should
have
been
a
little
more
specific
and
guiding
that's
a
great
answer
and
got
us
got
us
some
answers.
But
you
know
I
guess
that
would
be
you
know.
G
Kind
of
the
question
is
those:
do
you
see
those
local
requirements
in
those
local
regulations
standing
in
the
way
of
employers
and
individuals,
opening
up
child?
You
know
filling
the
gap
of
the.
D
There
there
are
significant
issues
with
zoning
laws
in
local
communities
that
are
preventing
family
child
care
homes.
The
the
idea
of
a
family
child
care
home
is
that
it
is
in
a
residential
area.
It
is
much
like
the
child's
personal
home.
It's
a
small
capacity,
it's
not
a
storefront
business,
and
there
are
efforts
that
have
been
made,
particularly
in
a
bill
that
senator
carroll
passed
two
years
ago,
that
we
need
all
of
our
local
areas
to
look
at
their
zoning
laws.
D
Jefferson
county
made
huge
efforts
this
past
year
about
changing
their
zoning
laws
so
that
more
family
child
care
homes
can
open,
despite
the
fact
that
they
are
a
business
in
a
residential
area
and
those
family
child
care
homes
are
typically
where
we
see
second
and
third
shift
care
weekend
care
more
flexible
care
in
rural
areas
that
might
not
fit
a
center
and
mandy
can
speak
more
about
jefferson
county.
I
know.
H
Just
to
speak
to
the
scope
of
what
sort
of
bricks
of
this
barrier
were
in
place
around
zoning
in
jefferson
county
prior
to
the
changes
made
this
year.
60
percent
of
jefferson
county
strictly
prohibited
child
care
for
more
than
six
children,
even
in
a
family
family
child
care
home,
which
could
be
regulated,
licensed
type
two
up
to
12
children
and
it
prohibited
the
operation
of
child
care
in
industrial
zones.
So
now
there
are
at
least
paths
forward.
H
There
are
some
additional
checks
and
balance
in
place
to
maintain
maintain
neighborhood
integrity
as
well
as
health
and
safety
of
children,
but
there's
at
least
the
option
to
be
using
our
land
in
a
way
that
allows
child
care
to
exist
where
parents
live
and
work.
So
zoning
looks
different
across
every
single
county
in
kentucky,
but
I
do
think
there
are
best
practices
and
models
that
can
be
brought
forward
to
show
how
you
create
zoning
that
it
has
the
best
opportunity
to
build
additional
child
care.
B
B
B
If
that
were
statewide,
we
could
see
the
wide
swell
wide
skull
growth
of
the
family,
child
care
home
within
local
residential
neighborhoods
that
are
closer
to
parents
closer
to
kids
and
that's
a
great
opportunity
to
rapidly
expand
the
amount
of
capacity
and
enrollment
that
we
would
see
for
child
care
across
the
state.
So
take
a
look
at
what
they've
worked
on
in
jefferson.
It's
very
impressive.
A
H
Dr
vanderbilt
may
be
able
to
speak
to
this
even
better
than
I
can,
but
I
think
for
most
providers
the
majority
of
their
teachers
are
working
full-time
now
they
may
also
have
some
teachers
who
are
potentially
in
college,
who
are
working
part-time
shifts,
but
the
majority
are
working.
Full-Time
and
child
care
providers
typically
operate
almost
a
12-hour
shift.
So
I'm.
A
D
Hours
straight,
a
40-hour
work
week
is
typical
with
child
care
providers
for
full-time,
but
I
will
say
that,
since
the
pandemic,
there
are
a
lot
of
programs
that,
since
they
have
not
been
able
to
find
enough
staff,
they
could
be
working
open
to
close
in
a
six
to
six
program.
The
the
estimates
of
those
average
wages
are
based
on
full-time
workers.
D
A
D
A
D
You
have
to
look
at
the
cost
of
living
in
the
state,
but
I
will
say
that
in
states
where
their
subsidy
reimbursement
is
higher,
where
the
state
puts
in
more
than
the
mandatory
state
match
for
the
federal
funds,
then
the
wages
do
increase
in
that,
and
we've
seen
great
great
things
in
states
like
north
carolina,
where
they
do
have
a
wage
supplement
program.
A
You
know
going
back
to
earlier
question
that
I
asked
draws:
is
there
many
studies
on
the
impact
of
other
family
caregivers
that
pull
themselves
out
of
the
workforce
full
or
part
time?
Has
there
been
any
studies
on
that
and
what
the
economic
impact
is
of
that?
I
know
mandy's
shaking
her
head
then,
and
now
so
maybe
I'll
direct
that
towards
you
or
whoever.
D
What
I
can
tell
you
about
is
that
it
varies
a
lot
based
on
how
the
the
grandparents
or
the
other
family
member
have
gotten
custody
of
that
child.
So
if
the
child
is
in
established
kinship
care
through
the
state,
then
children
who
are
part
of
kinship
care
fictive
can
things
like
that
can
qualify
for
subsidy
assistance
and-
and
that
can
be
a
huge
support.
We've
had
grandparents
that
are
raising
the
children
through
kinship
care
and
the
a
lot
of
the
federal
funds
target.
D
Supporting
children
in
foster
care
and
kinship
care
is
a
high
priority
group,
so
those
funds
can
go
to
assist
them.
Another
option
that
grandparents
may
have
is
that
if
they
are
family
friend
or
neighbor,
they
can
get
a
background
check
and
become
part
of
the
family
friend
or
neighbor
care
program,
and
then
they
can
get
reimbursed
for
watching
the
child
if
they
are
not
the
child's
primary
residence.
D
So
if
if
a
child
may
live
with
the
parent,
but
the
grandparent
really
carries
the
burden
of
a
lot
of
the
cost
of
raising
the
child,
then
they
could
become
a
regulated
child
care
provider
as
a
family
member
and
get
some
level
of
reimbursement
for
watching
the
child.
So
there
are
options
that
could
support
a
grandparent
aunt
or
uncle
if
they
are
doing
a
large
portion
of
the
child
care
or
if
they
become
the
primary
caregiver.
A
Thank
you.
Anybody
else
have
any
questions
on
that
all
right.
We
really
appreciate
your
hard
work
and
and
preparing
for
today
and
your
your
time
coming
up
here
to
talk
to
us
about
it.
You
know
that
kind
of
wraps
up
our
questions
on
that.
Thank
you
for
your
time
and.