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From YouTube: Benefits Cliff Task Force (7-20-22)
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A
Mission
and
how
we
can
help
in
these
areas.
So
as
we
continue
on
forward,
that's
that's
kind
of
the
gist
of
what
I
personally
would
hope
for
this
task
force
and
I'll
kind
of
was
gonna
pass.
It
senator
howe
he's
running
a
little
behind,
but
but
if
anyone
would
like
to
go
next,
representative
weber,
if
you
would
that'd
be
great,
thank
you.
B
B
I
work
closely
in
the
area
of
workforce
development,
the
issues
that
are
confronting
us
in
the
state
related
to
that
area,
and
I
see
us
working
on
the
benefits
cliff
to
encourage
folks
for
re-entry
into
the
workforce
and
kind
of
serving
as
a
bridge
to
help
individuals
enter
the
workforce
or
remain
in
the
workforce
and
be
able
to
advance
in
that.
So
I
look
forward
to
the
work
that
this
task
force
will
undertake.
Thank
you,
mr
chairman,.
C
Yes,
I'm
senator
mike
nemes
from
bullitt
county
and
southern
jefferson
county
district
38,
and
I
can't
say
it
any
better
than
the
chairman
has.
But
I've
worked
in
the
labor
cabinet
and
the
workforce
is
a
big
thing
with
me.
So
I'm
interested
in
this
thank.
D
I'm
represented
pamela
stevenson,
I
serve
district
43
in
jefferson,
county
and
my
desire
for
this
is
that
we
be
the
people
that
we
say
we
are
and
every
family
thrives,
and
I
don't
know
what
that
looks
like.
But
I
know
that
we
have
the
power
to
make
sure
that
people
get
what
they
need
to
be.
The
people
that
they're
called
to
be.
C
Thank
you
so
representative
josh
spray,
71st
district,
so
I
guess
my
goal
is
just
to
kind
of
explore
kind
of
what's
holding
some
people
back
from
doing
better.
C
I
know
this
past
weekend
I
talked
with
the
gentleman
who
wasn't
from
my
district:
he's,
got
a
two
thousand
dollar
pharmacy
benefit,
and
so
he's
had
opportunity
to
work
more
hours
or
to
get
a
higher
paying
job
get
married.
That
kind
of
thing
couldn't
do
it,
because
if
his
income
goes
up,
he
loses
that
benefit,
so
government
is
effectively
holding
him
back
and
so
it.
I
do
think
that
this
is
a
good
topic
to
explore
and
look
forward
to
it.
A
Thank
you,
representative,
and
with
that
we'll
go
ahead
and
dive
into
our
agenda,
we're
good
to
have
ncsl
present
to
present
to
us
heather.
If
you
would
like
to
introduce
yourself,
they
are
via
zoom,
and
your
colleagues
we'd
appreciate,
and
you
may
proceed.
E
Thank
you
so
much
co-chair,
dixon
and
hopefully
co-chair
how
will
be
able
to
join
us
soon
good
morning
and
thank
you,
members
of
the
special
committee
for
inviting
ncsl
to
present.
We
appreciate
your
time
and
engagement.
My
name
is
heather
wilson
and
I'm
a
senior
policy
specialist
with
the
national
conference
of
state
legislatures.
E
F
Hi
everyone
good
morning,
thank
you
all
for
being
here
and
thank
you
for
the
opportunity
for
us
to
speak.
As
heather
mentioned.
My
name
is
cameron
rivkin.
I
am
a
policy
associate
with
the
children
and
families
program.
I
work
predominantly
on
housing
and
homelessness,
economic
mobility
and
some
additional
intersecting
policy
topic
areas
and
thank
you.
Heather.
E
Before
we
begin
our
presentation,
I'd
like
to
share
with
you
some
information
about
the
national
conference
of
state
legislatures
or
ncsl
ncsl
is
the
country's
most
trusted
bipartisan
organization
serving
legislators
and
legislative
staff
for
nearly
40
years.
We
are
nonpartisan
and
policy
neutral
at
the
state
level.
We
promote
policy
innovation,
create
opportunities
for
lawmakers
to
share
knowledge
and
ensure
legislate
legislatures,
have
a
strong,
cohesive
voice
in
the
federal
system.
We
do
this
because
we
believe
in
the
importance
of
the
legislative
institution
and
know
when
states
are
strong.
Our
nation
is
strong.
E
E
During
today's
presentation,
we
will
provide
an
overview
and
examples
of
benefits.
Cliffs
and
public
benefits,
discuss
state
policy
opportunities
and
options
and
share
key
takeaways
and
resources
for
continued
support
to
meet
the
committee's
needs.
We
will
have
time
for
questions
following
our
presentation.
E
What
are
benefit
cliffs
before
we
dive
into
a
benefit
cliff
overview?
I
would
like
to
share
a
national
snapshot
of
what
poverty
looks
like
across
the
nation
and
the
number
of
people
using
public
benefits
at
100
of
the
federal
poverty
level.
While
this
data
is
from
2020,
it
is
the
most
recent
available
through
the
u.s
census
bureau
in
2020,
11.4
percent
of
the
nation's
population
was
living
below
the
poverty
line.
This
number
increased
slightly
from
2019.
E
E
on
average
poverty
in
kentucky.
During
this
time,
from
2018
to
2020
three
year
average
from
the
census
bureau
was
higher
than
the
national
percentage,
with
14.4
percent
of
all
kentuckians
living
in
poverty,
nationally
7.3
million
primary
families
or
a
group
of
two
or
more
people,
one
of
whom
is
the
householder
related
by
birth
or
marriage
or
adoption
and
residing
together.
E
E
When
you
look
at
the
public
benefit
participation
in
2020
those
below
100
of
the
federal
poverty
lines,
so
13
171
dollars
annually
for
an
individual
under
the
age
of
65
and
26
496
for
a
family
of
four,
you
can
see
how
many
people
were
actually
using
each
of
our
assistant's
benefits
and
the
first
number,
the
27.9
million
people
does
include
school
lunch
reductions
and
free
lunch.
E
E
E
Later
on,
my
colleague
will
share
an
overview
of
federal
public
benefits,
but
now
I'm
going
to
jump
into
the
work
of
the
task
force
and
provide
an
overview
of
benefit.
Cliffs
people
face
benefit
cliffs,
also
known
as
the
cliff
effect
when
they
receive
public
benefits
from
the
government,
have
an
increase
in
overall
income
and
then
discover
they
make
too
much
money
to
receive
the
benefits,
but
they
are
not
making
enough
money
to
sustain
themselves
and
their
households.
E
E
The
individual
in
this
example
from
marion
county
indiana,
is
a
single
parent
with
one
preschooler
and
one
child
in
school,
with
wages,
starting
at
eight
dollars
an
hour
and
increasing
to
twenty
four
dollars
an
hour.
The
red
line
across
the
middle
demonstrates
the
point
at
which
income
equals
the
cost
of
basic
necessities.
E
E
F
F
Here
these
are
the
federal
eligibility
guidelines
for
public
benefits.
These
five
are
some
of
the
most
used
public
benefits,
so
low-income
families
often
need
these
assistant
benefits.
In
addition
to
earned
income
to
help
make
ends
meet,
and
we
have
housing
assistance,
energy
subsidies,
nutrition
assistance,
cash
transfers
and
health
insurance,
and
so
for
housing
assistance.
We
have
vouchers
sometimes
referred
to
as
section
8.
These
help
pay
for
rent
low
income
home
energy
assistance
program
that
provides
for
financial
assistance
for
utility
bills,
weatherization
and
energy
related
home
repairs,
supplemental
nutrition
assistance
program,
that's
snap!
F
Many
of
you
may
be
familiar
with
that.
That's
the
largest
federal
nutrition
assistance
program.
This
provides
benefits
to
eligible
low-income
individuals
through
the
electronic
benefits
transfer
card
for
cash
transfers,
tanf
the
temporary
assistance
for
needy
families
program.
This
provides
grant
funds
to
states
and
territories
to
provide
families
with
financial
assistance
and
supportive
services.
F
This
helps
folks
achieve
economic
self-sufficiency.
They
provide
assistance
with
child
care,
job
placement,
employment
interviews,
a
lot
of
different
supportive
services
come
through
tanf,
so
health
insurance
medicaid,
I'm
sure
many
of
you
are
familiar
with
that.
Medicaid
is
a
joint
federal
and
state
program
that,
together
with
the
children's
health
insurance
program,
provides
health
coverage
to
about
70
to
73
million
americans,
including
children,
parents
seniors
women,
pregnant
women,
folks
with
disabilities.
F
Medicaid
is
the
single
largest
source
of
health
coverage
in
the
united
states,
not
noted
on
this
slide
as
child
care
and
development
assistance.
We'll
dig
a
little
bit
deeper
into
that
in
just
a
little
bit,
but
must
be
a
parent
or
caregiver
of
a
child
under
the
age
of
13
or
19
years
old.
If
the
individual
is
unable
to
live
independently,
is
restricted
to
those
in
low
or
very
low
income.
Households
and
these
requirements
vary
by
state
regarding
employment
or
enrollment
in
an
education
or
training
program.
F
So
we
just
mentioned
a
few:
we
have
tanf
snap
wic
and
the
child
care
assistance
program,
otherwise
known
as
ccap,
so
how
the
benefits
cliffs
kind
of
presents
itself
across
these
programs
might
differ
for
snap
exceeding
the
income
limit
threshold
by
as
little
as
one
dollar
can
result
in
a
total
loss
of
snap
benefits
for
ccap
according
to
research
done
by
the
national
women's
law
center,
a
family
of
three
in
2020,
making
150
of
the
federal
poverty
level,
which
was
about
32
000,
would
not
qualify
that
family
for
child
care
assistance
in
13
states
due
to
income
limitations.
F
Next
slide,
please
thank
you
heather,
and
this
is
a
montana
case
study.
This
came
directly
from
the
montana
legislator
and
the
state's
economic
affairs
interim
committee
that
examined
the
benefits
cliff
so
much
like
this
task
force
here.
This
was
a
very
similar
committee
responsible
for
exploring
everything
related
to
benefits
cliffs.
F
In
this
study,
we
have
cassie
a
single
mom
raising
a
three-year-old
son.
She
is
currently
earning
eleven
dollars
per
hour
and
working
full
time,
which
is
about
twenty
two
thousand
eight
hundred
dollars
a
year.
She
does
not
receive
health
insurance
through
her
employer
and
she's
offered
a
promotion
that
would
require
her
to
work
on
weekends,
but
it
would
increase
her
pay
to
16
an
hour
with
no
overtime.
F
The
federal
poverty
level
for
a
two-person
household
in
2021
was
17
420
she's,
currently
at
about
131
of
the
fpl,
the
federal
poverty
level.
If
she
accepts
this
promotion,
she
will
be
at
191
so
currently
her
and
her
son
qualified
for
medicaid
snap
wic,
the
low
income,
energy
assistance
program
and
ccap
the
child
care
assistants.
She
accepts
her
promotion.
She
will
no
longer
be
eligible
for
medicaid
or
wic.
Her
son,
however,
would
be
eligible
through
a
state
program
in
montana,
called
the
healthy
montana
kids
program.
F
It's
free
or
reduced
health
care
insurance
for
families
that
don't
qualify
for
medicaid.
It
is
only
eligible
to
her
son
and
not
to
cassie
her
sliding
scale.
Child
care
costs
would
increase
418
a
month.
If
she
works
to
accept
her
promotion.
Sliding
scale
costs
are
dependent
on
the
family's
income.
F
She
would
also
have
to
locate
a
babysitter
or
child
care
service
on
the
weekends,
because
her
current
place
is
not
open
on
the
weekends
and,
as
we
mentioned,
the
promotion
would
require
some
weekend
work.
Her
snap
benefits
might
also
be
terminated,
as
well
as
her
energy
assistance
benefits
we
mentioned.
Snap
benefits
could
be
terminated
if
her
deductions
decrease
her
net
income
to
a
hundred
percent
of
the
federal
poverty
level
and
the
energy
assistance
she's
very
close
to
the
threshold.
F
The
threshold
for
her
household
would
be
about
thirty,
four
thousand
thirty
five
thousand
and
with
her
current
income,
she
could
not
accept
any
other
really
additional
income.
Child
support
payments,
another
job,
a
gig
job,
perhaps
so,
ultimately,
cassie's
promotion
could
result
in
a
net
loss
of
income
due
to
health
care
costs,
child
care
costs
and
benefits
loss,
resulting
in
what
heather
had
mentioned.
What
what
many
refer
to
as
a
benefits
cliff.
F
Part
of
this
complicated
benefits,
cliff
is
work
requirements
and
work
requirements
vary
by
state.
They
can
be
mandatory
or
voluntary.
They
can
include
requirements
to
work
a
certain
number
of
hours
or
be
searching
for
employment
for
a
certain
number
of
hours.
In
order
to
receive
public
assistance
benefits.
F
There
are
exemptions,
caring
for
a
young
child
having
a
disability
being
enrolled
in
a
school
or
training
program
that
last
category
does
have
additional
criteria
and
restrictions
as
well
with
work
requirements
during
the
reagan,
as
well
as
the
clinton
administrations.
F
Research
was
dedicated
to
focusing
on
the
effects
of
benefits,
cliffs
and
work
requirements.
We've
seen
a
shift
more
towards
non-profit
organizations
and
bipartisan
think
tanks
exploring
this
topic.
The
data
suggests
mixed
results
in
terms
of
efficacy.
Some
have
sown
you
know,
no
real,
clear
increase
in
employment
or
reduction
in
poverty.
F
Some
recent
studies
show
that
work
requirements
can
create
red
tape,
barriers
and
these
complexities
that
result
in
benefits
lost
for
eligible
families,
so
for
families
that
that
would
otherwise
rise,
otherwise
receive
benefits.
Cliffs
next
slide,
please.
F
We
are
going
to
dig
a
little
bit
deeper
into
state
options
and
some
examples.
Legislation
and
strategies
that
policymaker
policymakers
can
use,
benefits
can
be
benefits,
clips
can
be
complex
and
there
are
a
variety
of
ways
that
we
can
mitigate
them.
There
isn't
a
one
size
fits
all.
F
This
coalition
identified
five
overarching
state
policy
strategies
to
consider
and
we'll
talk
a
little
bit
more
about
those
mapping
benefits
cliffs.
That's
what
we're
doing
here.
You
all
are
doing
here.
The
the
committee,
the
task
force,
developing
benefits,
calculators,
exploring
self-sufficiency
standards.
F
Aligning
eligibility
levels
includes
aligning
application
processes,
streamlining
the
process,
adjusting
asset
limits,
a
variety
of
different
things
can
kind
of
go
in
there.
Making
work
pay,
that's
what
we
refer
to
as
a
few
different
tax
credits.
We'll
talk
a
little
bit
more
about,
as
well
as
cultivating
career
pathways,
increasing
family
economic
security
and
fostering
system
changes
for
increasing
family
security
that
includes
escrow
accounts
or
individual
development
accounts
fostering
system
changes
includes
educating
employers
on
the
benefits
cliffs
and
why
their
employees
might
not
accept
a
promotion
as
well
as
increasing
student
access
to
snap.
F
F
So
here
we
have
a
few
examples
of
enacted
state
legislation.
Colorado
recently
implemented
a
work
management
system
across
their
counties
to
interface,
with
the
state's
benefit
system,
louisiana
passed
a
resolution
requesting
a
study
and
recommendations
to
the
legislator
concerning
eliminating
benefits.
Glyphs
in
public
assistance
programs
and
maine
eliminated
the
asset
test
requirement
for
their
snap
recipients.
F
Maine
also
created
the
essential
workforce
advisory
committee
required
to
recommend
and
develop
a
pilot
project
to
mitigate
the
benefits.
Cliff's
effects,
nebraska
increased
the
gross
income
eligibility
limit
and
the
asset
cap
requirement
for
snap.
Expanding
access
to
that
benefits.
Program
and
texas
created
a
self-sufficiency
fund
used
by
public
community
and
technical
colleges,
as
well
as
community-based
organizations
to
provide
job
training
to
folks
at
risk
of
facing
a
benefits
cliff
or
becoming
dependent
upon
public
assistance
benefits.
F
F
Iowa
introduced
legislation
to
create
an
economic
opportunity.
Work
group
this
bill
failed
to
pass
massachusetts
currently
has
a
pair
of
bills
pending
to
create
a
pilot
program
addressing
the
reduction
in
public
supports
when
earnings
increase
and
ohio
has
a
pending
legislation
dedicated
to
public
assistance,
benefits
cliff
study
committee,
so
we
do
continue
continue
to
see
various
states
exploring
this
issue
of
benefits.
Cliffs.
F
We
mentioned
briefly
some
tax
credits.
This
was
pulled
from
pages
that
ncsl
maintains
these
are
our
earned
income,
tax
credits
pages
and
our
child
tax
credit
pages,
and
so
on.
The
left
we
have
the
eitc's
and
on
the
right
we
have
the
child
tax
credits
so
for
eitc's,
33
states,
the
district
of
columbia,
guam
and
puerto
rico,
as
well
as
some
municipalities
have
state
level
or
territory.
District
level
earned
income
tax
laws
for
child
tax
credits.
F
12
states
have
child
tax
credits,
nine
of
which
are
refundable,
and
we
have
seen
a
lot
of
momentum
around
child
tax
credits.
Six
of
these
states
have
enacted
these
in
just
the
last
year
or
so,
and
we
are
continuing
to
see
more
legislation
geared
towards
tax
credits.
As
you
know,
we
mentioned
making
work,
pay
and
providing
some
some
resources
to
working.
Families
would
like
to
note
that
washington
is
the
only
state
that
has
an
earned
income
tax
credit,
but
they
don't
have
a
state
income
tax.
F
So
what
they
do
is
have
a
flat
dollar
amount
dependent
on
the
number
of
children
in
the
household,
and
that
will
go
into
effect
for
washington.
I
believe
next
year,
beginning
in
2023.
F
with
that,
I
would
like
to
pass
it
back
to
my
colleague
heather,
who
will
close
us
out.
Thank
you
all
and
thank
you.
Heather.
E
E
E
So
the
next
couple
of
slides
are
just
some
links
to
resources
that
we
have
compiled
for
the
committee's
use
related
to
the
cliff
effect.
The
first
slide
covers
ncsl
resources,
including
some
of
the
databases
that
cameron
shared
and
the
next
slide
are
resources
from
other
organizations
outside
of
ncsl.
E
E
E
G
G
I
can
recall
last
session
with
some
of
the
legislation
that
was
considered
regarding
unemployment,
that
you
were
unable
to
use
like
a
regional
jobless
rate
and
a
regional
poverty
rate
to
maybe
craft
a
finer
tuned
solution
to
deal
with
different
areas
experiencing
different
problems
as
far
as
available
jobs
when
you're
dealing
with
these
federal
programs
like
medicaid
and
and
snap
and
wic,
and
these
types
of
things
do
the
federal
guidelines
allow
you
allow
legislators
when
they're
crafting
this
type
of
legislation
to
take
a
more
nuanced
approach
that
fits
specific
areas
as
far
as
what
job
opportunities
are
there.
E
Thank
you
for
your
question.
Yes,
thank
you
for
your
question,
senator
wheeler,
so
I
I
think,
there's
a
nuanced
response
and
it
depends
on
the
benefit.
I
think
one
of
the
largest
cliff
effects
that
you
saw
through
our
presentation
and
through
research
is
child
care
benefit
cliff.
E
I
think
there
are
other
flexibilities
and
the
federal
government
has
set
sort
of
baseline
limits.
That
states
have
the
options
of
increasing
the
eligibility
level
for
many
benefits,
and
many
of
the
benefits
also
provide
opportunities
to
receive
waivers
for
states
to
do
to
have
more
flexibility
in
administering
the
federal
benefits.
E
G
G
And
and
clearly
all
of
these
things
are
working
in
kind
of
concert
with
one
another
to
provide
different
levels
of
security
which-
and
I
understand
that,
are
I
guess-
what
is
the
least
flexible
public
assistance
benefit,
that
out
of
all
of
the
ones
that
we
have
discussed
here
today,
as
far
as
being
able
to
transition
people
into
work
without
forcing
you
know
them
into
a
very
bad
economic
situation,.
E
I'm
not
sure
I
have
an
answer
for
you
right
now,
senator
wheeler.
I
know
that
tanf
has
very
restrictive
limitations
on
when
and
how
dollars
can
be
used
and
much
of
the
direct
cash
cash
assistance
from
tanf
benefits
has
been
moved
across
states
into
programs
that
support
work,
and
so
since
it
it's
a
limited
amount
of
money
and
there
are
stricter
limitations
and
guidelines.
E
That
would
be
one
example
potentially
of
a
restrictive
federal
program.
Those
again
states
have
flexibility
of
spending
tanf
dollars
within
buckets
of,
I
guess,
guidelines
and
opportunities
for
states
to
use
them
in
different
ways.
E
H
Oh
yeah
heather.
Thank
you
for
your
time
on
this,
and
this
may
be
a
little
bit
out
of
the
scope
of
what
you
look
at
and
what
what
what
you're
doing
but
has
ever
been
any
discussion
or
or
research
into
kind
of
the
psychological
and
emotional
aspects
of
this,
about
having
an
increase
of
responsibilities
and
not
getting
kind
of
a
dollar
for
dollar
return
on
a
sliding
scale.
When
there's
phasing
out
benefits,
has
there
any
been
any
discussion
or
or
any
studying
done
in
into
the
psychological
side
of
this?
F
I
would
say
that
that
probably
goes
a
little
bit
beyond
our
purview.
We,
we
do
have
a
health
team
at
ncsl
that
could
probably
collaborate
with
us
in
terms
of
that-
and
I
guess
and
and
thank
you
for
the
question
were:
were
you
in
referring
to
like
the
maybe
the
incentive
to
to
go
to
work
or
accept
a
promotion
that
kind
of
like
mental
emotional
sort
of
side
of
it
like
the
the
desire
to
go
to
work
or
something
along
those
lines?
Yeah.
H
E
The
urban
institute
has
an
anecdotal
study
where
they
send
tens
of
thousands
of
surveys
to
people
accepting
public
benefits
and
ask
about
how
they
perceive
their
benefits
and
how
they
understand
marginal
tax
rates
related
to
their
benefits.
So
I
think
there
is
some
anecdotal
evidence
and
insight
into
how
people
may
perceive.
E
I
think
one
of
the
findings
of
that
study
is
most
people
don't
understand
the
complicated
increases
that
accepting
a
new
job
could
have
so
they
worry
about
any
increase.
I
think
another.
Finding
of
that
is
they
don't
understand
how,
if
their
wage
increases,
how
they
may
be
eligible
for
refundable
tax
increases.
B
Thank
you,
mr
thank
you
very
much
for
the
presentation.
It's
it's
got
my
mind
rolling
around
here,
just
a
minute
how
complex
this
can
be.
So
my
my
question
is
obviously
you
reference
a
number
of
studies
that
have
been
undertaken.
B
I
was
wondering
if
there's
any
study,
that
sort
of
outlines
a
road
map
and
are
the
playing
field
so
to
speak
and
the
flash
points
that
are
experienced
and
I'm
asking
a
multiple
question
here
and
also
deal
with
options
and
alternatives
that
have
been
at
least
explored
or
et
cetera.
B
E
So
let
me
try
to
answer
your
question
and
please
jump
in
if
you
have
any
follow-up
questions
or
I'm
misinterpreting,
and
thank
you
for
your
question.
So
a
lot
of
studies
have
been
done
state
by
state.
I
think
to
answer
this.
E
New
hampshire
has
recently
passed
legislation
and
a
resolution
to
eradicate
and
the
cliff
effect
in
new
hampshire
and
has
completed
a
final
report
about
it.
Ohio
has
also
done
work
on
this
and
has
a
report
about
it.
New
mexico
has
reports.
I
think
we've
shared
with
you
or
my
colleague
shared
with
you
a
little
bit
about
montana's
work
in
this.
I
B
If
my
name
is
chairman,
I
think
senator
wilner's
question
is
what
prompted
me
actually,
and
I
think
your
answer
has
revealed
that
there
isn't
such
an
animal.
At
least
it
seems
to
suggest
that
that
there
has
not
been
an
analysis
of
these
other
circumstances
and
outcomes.
There's
no
comprehensive
analysis
of
that.
That
you're,
aware
of,
is
that
correct.
E
Not
that
I
am
aware
of,
as
I
think
my
colleague
cameron
mentioned,
a
lot
of
non-profits
and
think
tanks
have
been
documenting
and
studying
this
issue,
notably,
I
think
urban
institute
and
brookings
have
done
a
lot
of
work
along
this
line
and
may
have
some
examples.
Thank.
B
B
My
question
to
you
is
this
at
what
point
or
give
me
the
trigger
point
when
they're,
when
they
no
longer
might
be
terminated,
but
they
will
be
terminated
based
on
the
information
in
this
case
study,
because
that's
really,
ultimately,
what
we're
going
to
have
to
decide
on
in
this
task
force.
If
we
do
make
a
recommendation,
I
don't
know
who
makes
the
the
might
decision
who
makes
the
actual
decision
in
this
particular
case.
F
Sure
yeah,
thank
you
for
that
question.
So,
for
snap
deductions
decrease
her
net
income
to
a
hundred
percent
of
the
federal
poverty
level.
She
will
lose
her
snap
benefits.
F
Obviously
there
were
other
expenses
we
alluded
to.
You
know
she's
going
to
have
to
pay
out
of
pocket
to
maybe
get
health
care
to
maybe
pay
for
additional
child
care
services,
so
that
case
study
from
montana
might
not
be.
You
know
a
hundred
percent
complete
because
they're
they're
not
giving
us
examples
of
what
that
other
babysitter
might
cost.
Maybe
she
has
a
friend
or
relative
or
a
neighbor
who's
willing
to
watch
and
that
that's
minimal
cost
versus
you
know,
maybe
a
more
established
care
service
for
energy
assistance.
F
She
is
about
a
thousand
dollars,
maybe
fifteen
hundred
dollars
from
losing
energy
assistance
so
annually.
F
F
B
F
B
F
Sure
yeah
and
we
do
have
information
on
the
federal.
I
believe
there
was
a
question
sort
of
alluding
to
it
before
in
terms
of
flexibility.
Many
of
the
federal
programs
basically
establish
these
thresh
thresholds
at
the
federal
poverty
level.
F
So
you
know,
for
example,
for
the
the
benefits
for
wic
women:
infinite
children
that
that
federal
poverty
level
is
set
to
allow
states
to
set
their
benefits
anywhere
between
a
hundred
and
thirty
percent,
and
a
hundred
and
or
sorry
a
hundred
percent
and
185
percent
of
the
federal
poverty
level
for
wic
and
then
for
like
free
and
reduced
lunch
benefits,
that's
also
a
sliding
scale.
It's
a
hundred
and
thirty
percent
to
185
percent
that
the
federal
government
basically
allows
states
to
set
the
threshold
anywhere
between
there.
F
Some
are
a
little
more
rigid.
I
believe
snap
has
a
firm
line.
I
think
it's
around
130
percent
of
the
federal
poverty
level,
so
we
can
definitely
look
more
into
those
specific
requirements
for
each
one.
I
do
believe
some
of
it
might
be
included
in
in
the
additional
resources,
but
we
would
be
happy
to
you
know,
put
a
report
together
regarding
that
as
well.
Does
that
answer
a
little
bit
more,
I'm
I
don't
want
to
get
too
off
your
question.
No,
I
appreciate
it.
Thank
you,
sir.
Of
course,
thank
you.
C
Thank
you,
mr
chairman.
I
guess
I've
got
a
question
for
mr
rifkin
as
well.
So
one
of
the
things
that
kind
of
sticks
out
to
me
is
you
know.
No
two
states
are
a
lock,
obviously,
but
within
let's
say
even
here
in
kentucky,
no
two
cases
are
alike
as
well.
C
I
mean
you
might
have
a
on
one
hand
might
be
talking
about
a
single
mother
on
another
hand,
might
be
talking
about
a
you
know,
a
single
guy
with
a
dependent
elderly
person
at
home,
and
so
the
qualifications
for
each
of
these
programs
seems
to
be
different,
whether
it's
snap
or
the
child
care
assistance
or
tanf
or
laheep.
C
Can
you
can
you
talk
about
and
I'm
looking
at
page
20.,
it
looks
like
colorado's
implemented
something
to
go
across
all
counties,
and,
and
all
of
that,
can
you
kind
of
talk
about
that?
What
they've
done
and
has
that
simplified
the
process?
Absolutely
yeah.
Thank.
F
You
for
your
question
that
might
fall
a
little
bit
under
a
bucket,
we
sort
of
refer
to
as
broad-based
categorical
eligibility,
and
we
can
definitely
put
some
more
reports
and
slides
together
regard
regarding
that
and
it's
basically
states
aligning
their
programs
similar
to
the
colorado
model
and
so
in
colorado.
Those
programs
across
include
snap
medicaid
and
the
state
level
colorado
works
and
so
basically
to
increase
access.
They
have
integrated
the
eligibility
and
enrollment
process
for
snap
with
eligibility
criteria
for
the
energy
assistance.
F
So
it's
basically
lining
up
saying
if
you
qualify
for
one
of
these,
you
automatically
qualify
for
the
others.
Sometimes
that's
just
the
eligibility.
Sometimes
that's
the
application
process
itself.
Sometimes
that's
both
again
that
kind
of
differs
by
state.
We
can
definitely
provide
a
more
kind
of
illustrative
example
for
kind
of
state
by
state,
but
that's
sort
of
the
the
model
that
they've
gone
off
of
lining
snap
and
tanf,
aligning
snap
and
medicaid
to
make
it
a
little
bit
easier
and
to
streamline
the
process
and,
ultimately,
I
think,
expand
access.
A
A
How
many
states
either
have
that
implemented,
are
working
on
that
or
is
that's
part
of
this
process,
because
a
comment
you
have
just
made
and
then
and
then
in
the
presentation-
was
that
aligning
those
benefits
or
giving
a
resource
for
for
the
people
of
those
states
to
go
and
and
see
where
they
stand
and
what
they
can
do
to
make
the
correct
move
to
to
you
know
move
forward.
So
if
you
could
just
real
quickly,
you
know
how
many,
how
does
that
look
across
the
nation
as
far
as
as
calculators
and
those
being
implemented.
F
Yeah
absolutely
thank
you
for
that
question
co-chair.
I
don't
I
don't
know.
If
heather
does,
I
don't
know
if
I
have
that
number
exactly
in
front
of
me.
I
can
say
that
from
our
research
and
kind
of
examining
trends,
it
does
seem
to
be
more
prevalent
on
the
local
level.
Currently
we've
seen
stuff
with
large
metropolitan
areas
with
atlanta
and
some
other
larger
cities
creating
benefits,
cliffs
calculators
at
a
state
level.
I
I
don't
know
the
exact
number.
F
A
Well,
well,
thank
you
for
that.
The
presentation
I
appreciate
you
guys
giving
us
that
national
perspective.
The
goal
of
this
meeting
is
to
is
to
gather
this
this
from
a
10
000
foot
view
of
what's
going
on,
not
only
here,
you
know
locally
a
little
bit,
but
what's
going
on
across
the
nation,
so
I
really
appreciate
you
guys
presenting
today
and
giving
us
all
the
information
and
from
your
presentation.
It
sounds
like
we're
right
there
with
several
other
states
that
are
that
are
diving
into
this
issue
and
really
really
looking
for
solutions.
A
A
So
as
we
continue
to
move
along,
our
second
presentation
will
be
from
the
foundation
for
government
accountability.
Sam,
if
you
are
on,
if
you
introduce
yourself
and
and
continue
with
your
presentation,.
K
All
right,
chair,
howell,
chair
dixon
members
of
the
committee,
I
thank
you
for
the
chance
to
present
today.
I
appreciate
especially
the
chance
to
present
by
zoom
I'm
up
here
in
maine,
so
this
makes
it
very
easy
for
me
to
talk
with
you
all
today.
I
appreciate
that
my
name
is
sam
adolfson.
I'm
the
policy
director
at
the
foundation
for
government,
accountability
or
fga
and
fga
is
a
non-profit,
nonpartisan
think
tank
and
we
focus
on
promoting
public
policy
that
helps
people
move
from
government
dependency
to
self-sufficiency.
K
We
want
people
to
experience
the
american
dream
to
its
fullest
and
just
a
little
background
on
me
before
I
joined
fga,
I
was
the
chief
operating
officer
at
the
maine
department
of
health
and
human
services,
and
while
I
was
there,
I
oversaw
the
welfare
eligibility
office.
So
this
issue
that
you're
exploring
the
benefits
cliff
came
up,
often
in
our
policy
conversations.
K
While
I
was
in
that
role
at
dhhs
and
that
hasn't
changed
since
I
joined
fga,
we
work
on
welfare
in
35
states
and
on
the
federal
level
in
washington
dc
and
that
conversation
about
a
welfare
cliff
comes
up
again
and
again,
and
so
obviously
it's
an
important
issue.
I
really
appreciate
this
committee
looking
into
it
really
in
a
thoughtful
way
here
over
the
summer.
It's
it's
important
because
of
its
substantive
implications
like
what
could
be
more
important
in
welfare
policy
than
a
government-created
welfare
cliff
trapping
people
in
long-term
dependency.
K
K
So
those
I
I
believe,
are
some
principles
we
can
agree
on.
But
there
continues
to
be
this
conversation
around
the
country
that
you
all
are
having
about
about
this
welfare
cliff.
So
I'd
like
to
share
what
we've
learned
looking
at
welfare
programs
and
work
around
the
country
first,
it
probably
won't
surprise
any
of
you
in
the
room
that
the
best
path
from
dependency
to
self-sufficiency
is
work.
It's
that
simple
and
there's
a
lot
of
studies
that
have
been
mentioned
already.
K
We've
undertaken
a
number
of
studies
that
look
at
the
impact
of
work
requirements
across
multiple
states
and
just
a
few
are
our
main,
where
I'm
at
here
florida,
kansas,
mississippi,
arkansas,
missouri
and
what
we
looked
at
was
what
happened
after
work.
Requirements
were
put
in
place
in
those
states,
and
what
we
found
universally
was
that
yes,
people
did
leave
welfare,
they
got
jobs
and
their
incomes
doubled
or
tripled
within
a
year
or
two
of
leaving
the
program.
K
We
actually
tracked
the
jobs
data
of
every
single
person
who
left
welfare
and
I've
provided
some
links
to
studies
on
this
issue,
and
then
I
think
you
also
have
one
there
in
front
of
you,
but
all
of
these
reports
are
on
our
website
and
we
and
we
can
provide
them
directly
as
well.
K
K
So
in
kentucky
alone,
I
I
think
you're
all
aware
of
this,
but
there
are
at
least
180
000
open
jobs
today
and
if,
if
it
looks
anything
like
it
does
around
here,
when
you
drive
down
the
street,
there
are
help
wanted
signs
everywhere,
practically
on
every
business,
but
the
the
kind
of
the
misinformation
that
I
mentioned
about
a
welfare
cliff.
It
persists
and
it
kind
of
keeps
us
worried
about
the
clear
solution
that
is
these
work
requirements.
K
K
K
K
K
That
weren't
working
at
all
and
we
defined
close
to
the
eligibility
cutoff
as
within
50
percent.
So
really
that's
not
not
even
that
close.
So
let
me
just
repeat
it:
according
to
the
usda
data
publicly
available
for
every
one
able-bodied,
adult
close
to
the
income
cut
off
in
kentucky,
there
are
1600
that
are
not
working
at
all.
K
K
More
than
600
000
of
those
are
able-bodied
adults
that
were
added
as
part
of
medicaid
expansion,
and
we
know
from
state
data
that
we
collected
in
kentucky
that
more
than
half
of
those
adults
do
not
work
at
all.
Zero
earned
income,
and
we
also
know
I
I
know
labor
force.
Participation
is
part
of
the
issue
that
you're
looking
into
as
a
committee
over
that
same
time
span
as
we've
seen:
welfare
grow
dramatically,
kentucky's
labor
force
participation
rate
dropped
by
11
and
currently
one
of
the
lowest
in
the
nation
for
labor
force
participation.
K
K
K
K
In
real
life,
a
dollar
earned
is
worth
more
than
a
dollar
received
from
a
government
benefit,
and
we
saw
from
our
florida
study
that
even
people
who
went
into
modest
jobs
initially
like
fast
food
which
pay
pretty
well
these
days,
but
even
if
they
went
into
those
lower
paying
jobs
that
wasn't
where
it
ended,
they
quickly
moved
on
to
higher
wage
jobs
throughout
the
state.
In
over
a
thousand
industries,
the
dollar
in
a
paycheck
grows
with
time
and
self-sufficiency.
K
It's
an
investment,
but
the
dollar
in
a
welfare
check
is
not.
It
doesn't
operate
that
way.
It's
just
a
dollar,
and
you
know
this
is
really
to
say
nothing
of
the
dignity
and
the
value
that
work
creates
the
new
social
relationships,
people
that
can
help
that
person
and
the
new
skills
that
build
towards
those
future
and
even
better
employment
opportunities.
K
There's
almost
no
poverty
among
people
who
work
full-time,
and
it's
also
why
having
a
job
is
a
top
predictor
of
whether
someone
with
a
criminal
history
will
re-offend,
and
it's
why
work
is
one
of
the
best
predictors
of
recovery
and
lasting
sobriety
among
individuals
with
substance
abuse
problems.
K
K
Can't
do
that
and
then
third
and
in
the
final
myth
here
about
the
welfare
cliff,
is
that
the
folks
that
kind
of
have
pushed
this
welfare
cliff
idea
the
most
kind
of
continue
to
evoke
that
one
hypothetical
person
at
the
very
edge
of
the
cliff
and
say
that
once
a
recipient
crosses
the
threshold
of
that
income,
there's
nothing
to
help
them
right,
they're
out
there
without
a
parachute
off
the
cliff
and
we've
abandoned
them.
K
But
that's
simply
not
true.
So
the
policy
makers,
many
like
you
across
the
country
over
the
previous
decades,
who
are
worried
about
this
dynamic,
have
really
already
built
an
enormous
number
of
rules
and
transitional
benefits
that
essentially
have
eliminated
these
types
of
concerns
altogether.
So
consider
the
food
stamp
program-
and
I
know
we've
talked
some
about
the-
how
it
works
already
here,
but
kentucky
uses.
K
What
you
heard
earlier
is
called
the
broad-based
categorical
eligibility
option
state
option
in
the
food
stamp
program,
and
that
does
two
things.
It
eliminates
the
asset
test
entirely,
meaning
that
having
fifty
thousand
dollars
in
cash
hundred
thousand
dollars
in
a
stock
account,
a
new
rv
in
the
garage
will
not
disqualify.
You
from
getting
food
stamps
in
kentucky.
K
It
also
increases
the
income
eligibility
level
to
200
percent
of
the
federal
poverty
level.
So
this
means
practically
in
kentucky
that
a
family
of
three
is
eligible
for
food
stamps.
At
about
forty
six
thousand
dollars
in
annual
income
and
the
the
median
household
income
just
for
comparison
is
about
52
000
in
kentucky.
K
So
from
a
starting
point.
The
baseline
eligibility
levels
for
this
massive
welfare
program
are
very
high
already
so
you're
starting
from
that
point,
and
then
on
top
of
that,
the
food
stamp
program
is
really
designed
federally
to
adjust
to
earn
income
already
so
benefits
aren't
static.
They
go
up
or
down
based
on
your
income
and
as
your
income
starts
going
up,
the
benefits
start
coming
down.
It's
basically
connected
indexed
together.
For
this
precise
reason,
the
snap
program,
food
stamps
also
completely
disregards,
ignores
the
first
20
of
your
earned
income.
K
So
those
folks
can
receive
at
least
six
months
and
up
to
12
months,
a
full
year
of
medicaid
coverage,
even
after
they're
no
longer
income
eligible
and
then
there's
you
know,
there's
some
other
things
that
you're
all
aware
of
I'm
sure
like
anyone
leaving
medicaid
because
they
earn
income
above
that
level.
There's
there's
free
or
heavily
subsidized
plans
in
the
healthcare
marketplace,
all
the
way
up
to
400
percent
of
the
federal
poverty
level,
and
then
just
just
one
final
thought
on
medicaid.
This
is
your
the
biggest
program
in
your
state.
K
So
it's
very
important
since
early
2020,
the
back
of
the
beginning,
at
covid
by
federal
law,
not
a
single
person
has
been
removed
from
medicaid
because
of
their
income,
not
one
person
in
in
america.
K
K
Of
course
we
have
more
people
than
ever
sitting
on
the
sidelines,
not
working
despite
over
two
and
a
half
years
of
not
being
able
to
take
someone
off
medicaid
because
of
their
income,
so
the
solution
isn't
more
welfare,
it's
more
work-
and
I
just
like
to
to
wrap
up
here
with
how
kentucky
can
focus
on
that
problem
with
a
good
solution.
So
the
food
stamp
program
is
the
primary
place.
I
think
you
have
opportunity
for
reform
right
now,
and
the
good
news
is
that
kentucky
can
do
this
by
better
leveraging
an
existing
program.
K
A
So
well,
sam.
We
appreciate
your
presentation
so
much.
Thank
you
for
for
being
a
part
of
our
first
meeting
today,
like
I
said
in
the
beginning,
we
have
a
very
packed
informational.
We
have
one
more
presenter
and,
like
I
said,
sam,
thank
you
so
much.
We
appreciate
thank.
A
It
we
will
continue
to
move
along.
We
have
a
group,
dr
cunningham.
If
you
would
approach,
they
are
in
person
and
your
colleagues
and
introduce
yourself
and
your
colleagues
from
kentucky
stats.
I
Several
times
in
the
past,
to
kind
of
summarize
some
of
the
results
in
this
tool
and
as
you
can
imagine
and
we've
discussed
in
earlier
presenters,
there
are
millions
of
different
different
scenarios
for
families
on
a
case-by-case
basis,
but
we'll
kind
of
go
through
some
typical
scenarios
that
we
see
here
in
kentucky
and
then
we'll
wrap
up
with
any
questions
that
you
might
have
and
provide
a
link
to
the
tools.
So
you
can
interact
with
it
yourself.
I
So
I'm
going
to
hand
it
off
to
my
colleague
here
chris
stevens
he's
a
senior
data
scientist
in
our
office
and
he
has
actually
become
one
of
the
you
know.
State
and
national
leaders,
in
partnership
with
nccp
he's
worked
closely
with
them
to
develop
the
kentuckianized
version
of
this
tool
that
many
other
states
have
developed
for
the
benefit.
Cliff
analysis
in
their
state
so
I'll
hand
it
off
to
chris
to
kind
of
go
through
some
of
the
talking
points.
J
Thank
you
very
much
so
benefit
glyphs
and
sustainability.
One
of
the
things
we
wanted
to
do
is
cover
some
definitions.
You've
already
heard
a
lot
of
these
definitions,
so
work
supports
are
just
the
programs
that
assist
families
the
benefit
cliff.
I
think
we've
already
talked
about
that
and
then
self-sustainability
is
going
to
happen
when
a
family
is
no
longer
participating
in
any
work
supports
outside
of
tax
credits
and
has
enough
to
meet
all
of
their
basic
expenses.
J
So,
in
order
to
do
this,
you
really
just
need
two
numbers:
it's
complicated,
two
numbers,
but
it's
just
two
numbers:
it's
the
families
expenses
how
much
they
spend
on
health
care
and
child
care
and
those
kinds
of
things,
and
then
the
family's
resources,
how
much
money
they
have
coming
in
from
work,
what
they're
getting
in
tax
credits
and
then
what
the
value
of
the
work
supports
if
they're
participating
in
work
supports,
is
so
in
order
to
calculate
those
two
numbers.
The
family
resource
simulator
needs
a
fair
amount
of
information.
J
There
are
1.7
households
in
the
state
of
kentucky,
which
means
there
are
1.7
1.7
million,
which
means
that
there
are
1.7
million
different
scenarios
that
we're
all
responsible
for
looking
at
in
this
in
this
situation,
the
first
thing
you
need
is
county,
so
cost
of
living
is
different.
Based
on
where
you
live,
then
you
need
family
size,
number
of
adults,
number
of
children,
the
family
members
ages.
How
much
you
have
in
savings,
whether
or
not
you're
getting
child
support.
J
If
the
family
has
any
debt,
you
have
expenses
like
child
care
and
housing
and
transportation
and
medic
medical
health
insurance.
You
have
employment
information.
So
what's
your
starting
hourly
wage?
Do
you
work
a
traditional
schedule?
Do
you
work
nights
and
weekends?
Is
there
a
premium
for
child
care
at
those
points?
Finally,
in
the
tool
you
can
select,
which
programs
you
want
the
family
to
be
participating
in
that
you're
simulating,
you
can
choose
all
of
them.
You
can
choose
just
one
and
you
can
see
what
the
results
are
for
that
family.
J
So
you
get
tax
credits
that
the
family
is
eligible
for
and
the
amount
you
get
the
additional
resources,
including
interest
on
savings,
child
support,
received
if
the
family
is
getting
any
disability
benefits
you
get.
Expenses
such
as
child
care,
family,
food
costs,
transportation,
you
get
taxes
paid
by
the
family
based
on
income
level,
and
then
you
get
the
amount
of
resource
that
they're
getting
from
work
supports
or
the
reduction
of
expenses
from
work
supports
included
in
the
tool.
J
J
You'll
notice
that
with
work
supports,
let
me
let
me
start
at
the
beginning:
earned
annual
income
is
across
the
bottom
on
the
x-axis,
so
you
can
see
changes
in
income
for
the
family
or
you
can
pick
out
different
families
on
the
graph
at
earned
income
levels.
You
can
see
where
that
family
falls.
The
left
is
net
resources.
You've
seen
a
chart
like
this
before
in
this
meeting
already
and
then
the
dashed
line
across
the
middle
is
zero
dollars.
That's
where
resources
and
benefits
are
equal.
Our
resources
and
expenses
are
equal.
J
You'll
notice
that
about
35
and
36
thousand
dollars.
The
family
is
above.
The
zero
line
on
the
chart
with
work
supports
that
family
is
self-sustaining,
that
family
is
self-sustaining
again
at
70
000
a
year
in
earned
income
and
in
between
35
000
and
70
000.
That
family
will
experience
five
different,
cliff
effects
and
at
no
time
during
that
spans
expanse
will
they
be
above
zero
in
terms
of
net
resources,
they'll
have
to
scrounge
and
find
new
ways
to
meet
their
family's
basic
expenses.
J
Also
in
the
tool
you
can
look
at
what
specific
programs
and
what
specific
expenses
are
going
into
each
calculation
at
each
dollar
amount.
You
can
see
where
child
care,
the
cost
of
child
care
increases
due
to
a
loss
of
sea
cap.
You
can
see
where
food
prices
increase
due
to
having
to
cover
school,
lunches
and
school
meals
and
then
loss
of
snap
benefits.
J
J
J
J
J
J
We
wanted
to
bring
this
home
a
little
bit
so
in
henderson
county,
a
one
adult
two
child
household.
This
family
has
eight
thousand
dollars
in
additional
resources
above
basic
expenses,
while
participating
in
work
supports
when
earning
21.15
cents
an
hour
in
order
for
them
to
be
off,
work
supports
and
maintain
that
same
level
of
about
five
to
six
hundred
dollars
a
month
in
additional
resources
above
basic
expenses.
They
would
need
a
10
and
10
cent
raise
if
the
family
got
a
raise.
J
Additionally,
with
calloway
county
in
a
situation
with
two
adults
and
two
children,
the
family,
when
earning
thirty
five
thousand
dollars
with
work
supports,
is
about
six
thousand
dollars
above
zero.
They
have
six
thousand
dollars
in
net
resources
above
basic
expenses.
J
J
So
the
default
values
will
fail
to
capture
some
nuance
anywhere,
that
a
user
doesn't
input
specific
values
for
a
family.
We
use
national
and
local
estimates
we
get
as
granular
as
possible.
If
there's
an
estimate
for
a
specific
county,
we
use
it.
If
not,
we
use
a
state
estimate.
If
not
a
state
estimate,
we
use
a
national
estimate.
J
The
other
thing
in
all
of
the
scenarios
that
we've
shown
today,
we
assume
zero
debt
for
these
families.
There's
no
medical
debt,
there's
no
car
payments,
there's
no
student
loan
debt
and
no
credit
card
debt
changing
any
one
of
these
things
can
change
the
scenario
for
any
of
the
families
that
are
running
you're
running
the
simulation
on.
J
And
then
coming
back
to
self-sustainability
for
a
two-person
household
assist
the
minimum
you
need
to
be
self-sustaining
in
the
state
of
kentucky
is
forty
five
thousand
dollars
with
one
adult
and
one
child
for
a
three-person
household,
it's
47
000
for
a
four
person
household,
it's
57
000
and
then
in
a
five
person
household.
You
need
at
least
66
000
in
order
to
be
sustaining
self-sustaining
in
one
county
in
the
state
of
kentucky.
I
And
so
just
to
kind
of
close
us
out,
we
provided
a
link
in
your
powerpoint
for
the
family
resource
simulator,
so
that
you
know
you
can
kind
of
input
your
own
family
scenarios
in
there,
and
I
would
like
to
reiterate
chris's
point
that
you
know
this.
Is
it
you
get
a
more
accurate
estimate
if
it's
an
individualized
interaction
with
the
tool?
Okay.
So
what
we've
provided
here
today
are
summaries
of
family
scenarios
that
you
know
make
some
assumptions
in
there
of
the
zero
debt.
A
And
I'll
I'll
kind
of
open
up,
I
have
a
quick
question,
not
seeing
any
any
of
the
members
right
at
this
time.
Question
for
the
seminar.
How
many
users
can
you
track
that?
Do
you
know
how
many
individuals
have
used
this
simulator
or
inputted
their
information
to
you
know
throughout
the
state
to
kind
of
find
out
where
they
stand.
I
A
Okay,
so
right
now
it's
kind
of
unknown
on
those
is:
is
this
simulator
completely?
A
Can
you
customize
it
and
what
I
mean
it
sounds
like
you've
done
that
you
know
greatly
so
far,
but
we
can
get
down
to
any
individual
county
and
as
an
individual
who
would
be
on
assistance
in
any
particular
county
could
go
on
to
the
simulator
input,
all
of
their
correct
information
and
then
be
able
to
see
the
benchmarks
that
they
would
need
to
to
acquire
you
know
acquire
to
get
off
of
assistance
is
what
I'm
trying
to
say:
yes,
yeah,
okay
and
then
one
more
follow
the
the
analysis
of
henderson,
which
is
my
home
county,
the
the
the
21
to
what
what
is
called
on
here
is
3125
on
the
on
the
pay
rate.
A
J
So
you
can
choose
between
a
marketplace:
option,
option
or
health
and
employer
option
and
then
also
there's
a
place
for
you
to
go
in
and
put
in
how
much
you
have
to
pay
with
your
current
employer
and
it
can
calculate
it
based
on
the
individual
employer
paying
for
those
things,
and
you
can
also
do
that
with
child
care.
Okay,
awesome.
A
That's
kind
of
the
way
I
was
steering
that,
thank
you.
So
much
does
any
of
the
other
members
have
any
questions.
Senator
whaler.
G
Sorry,
mr
chairman,
you
mentioned
that
you
know
you're
running
this
with
a
you
know,
a
zero
debt
scenario,
which
I
think
is
a
probably
a
very
false
starting
place
for
most
people
that
are
on
public
assistance.
I
mean,
I
think,
to
some
degree
a
lot
of
times,
they're
mired
in
debt,
and
you
know
it
astonishes
me
regularly.
G
As
a
you
know,
on
a
practicing
attorney
where
these
predatory
lenders
and
credit
card
companies
will
loan
massive
amounts
of
money
to
a
massive,
but
it
will
make
massive
amounts
of
loans
is
probably
the
better
way
to
to
describe
that
to
people
that
I
think
a
little
will
never
be
able
to
pay
it
back,
and
then
they
get
caught
in
this
interest
cycle,
which
is
which
is
really
really
bad.
G
So
in
that
regard,
how
does
your
calculator
factor
that,
in
as
in
as
far
as
you
know
that
that's
another
factor,
I
think
that
would
have
to
be
considered?
And
you
know
if
you
look
at
that
debt
service
in
connection
with
the
increased
wages
you
know
they
could
get
hit
with
kind
of
a
double
whammy
in
my
mind,
because
the
more
they
make
to
service
their
debt,
then
it's
gonna,
you
know
lower
their
eligibility
for
certain
programs,
which
really
doesn't
improve
their
lot
in
any
form
or
fashion.
G
So
how
do
you
know?
How
does
your
your
simulator
kind
of
address
that
scenario.
I
Yeah,
that's
a
great
question,
so
you
know
we
decided
to
provide
this
in
the
summary
statistics
that
this
was
the
bare
minimum
required.
That's
why
we
put
the
zero
debt,
and
so
we
would
be
happy
to
run
any
summary
scenarios
that
the
committee
would
like
to
see
with
a
certain
amount
of
average
debt
or
anything
that
the
committee
sees
fit
for
that.
I
G
Brief
follow-up,
if
I
may,
mr
chairman
and
I
and
I
understand-
and
I
guess
you
all
hear
more
of
to
explain
the
the
the
program
maybe
than
than
to
necessarily
address
policy
concerns.
But
and
again
this
may
go
to
the
question
that
I
alluded
to
earlier
in
the
first
presentation:
have
you
all
utilized
this
tool
to
see
where
we
might
make
nuanced
changes
within
some
of
these
assistance
programs.
G
To
where-
and
this
may
address
a
comment
made
earlier
by
senator
how
to
I
think
there
there
to
some
degree,
is
a
poverty
of
the
mind
in
the
sense
that
people
do
get
get
trapped
in
a
system
and
feel
like
they're
being
punished.
G
If,
if
they
go
out
there
and
and
get
a
job
and
and
and
try
to
do
the
right
thing
and,
and
that
does
affect
somebody's
psyche,
I
mean
it
would
anybody
I
mean
here,
I'm
there,
but
there's
also
very
much
dignity
in
work,
and
I
think
that
those
are
two
equally
valid
concepts.
G
I
So
what
we
can
do
is
provide
the
data
to
you
and
then
the
other
thing
that
we
can
do
is
to
lean
into
other
state
expertise
that
you
heard
from
like
the
nc
sl,
like
the
earned
income
tax
credits
and
things
like
that
that
other
states
are
doing
in
these
policy
situations
and
these
different
programs.
H
H
J
H
And
is
that
250
000
all
of
the
households
in
kentucky
that
have
children.
J
So
senator
wheeler
brought
up
something
in
2020.
The
change
was
made
in
the
state
of
kentucky
to
move
the
snap
benefit
level
from
135
percent
to
200
percent.
That's
one
of
the
reasons
why
you
see
so
many
cliff
effects
around
forty
four
thousand
dollars.
J
A
H
And
I'm
going
to
struggle
asking
this
question
so
be
be
patient
with
me
so
and
and
what
you're
talking
about?
Basically,
this
move
the
cliff
gap
up
the
the
the
economic
chain
for
lack
of
middleware,
but
the
earnings
chained
a
little
bit.
Is
that
something
we're
going
to
see
as
we
evaluate
different
options
as
we
go
through
this
process
of
how
that
will
either
broaden
or
narrow
that
gap,
move
it
up
or
down?
Is
that
something
that
we
should
expect
to
see.
I
H
Of
my
question,
and
if
so,
is
that
something
that
you
could
help
us
with
along
this
path,
if
we
have
this
idea-
and
we
want
to
get
some
estimates
on
real
net
effect-
that
you
could
plug
different
variables
in
this,
for
what
we're
trying
to
do
and
then
show
us
what
the
impact
would
be.
Yes,
thank
you.
E
C
Thank
you,
mr
chairman,
do
we
have
data
on
how
many
families
have
fallen
off
the
cliff.
J
C
J
I
I
G
C
First
of
all,
I'd
like
to
acknowledge
dr
cunningham
and
her
great
works
he
has
done.
I
was
in
the
same
cabinet,
so
thank
you
very
much,
but
on
the
benefit
glitz
a
cliff.
I
would
like
to
see
if
we
can
tear
it
down,
instead
of
being
a
cliff
tear
it
away,
and
then,
when
a
representative
was
talking
about
how
may
have
fallen
off
the
cliff,
I
would
rather
change
that
wording
to
how
many
people
have
become
successful
and
not
needed
aid.
Thank
you.
A
Well,
I
want
to
take
this
time
dr
cunningham,
thank
you
so
much
and
your
team
for
presenting
that
was
very
informational.
Take
the
time
to
thank
all
of
the
presenters
and
thank
all
the
members
for
your
patience.
This
was
a
very
long
and
informational
beginning
to
our
task
force
and
thank
everyone
in
attendance
with
that
being
said,
our
next
task
force
meeting
will
be
august,
24th
at
9
00
a.m,
here
in
room
131,
and
unless
there
is
any
other
business
or
any
other
questions
from
the
members,
we
will
stand
adjourned.
Thank
you.