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From YouTube: Unemployment Insurance Reform Task Force
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A
I
want
to
welcome
everyone
to
the
third
meeting
of
the
kentucky
unemployment
insurance
reform
task
force.
At
this
point,
I'm
going
to
ask
sasha
to
call
the
role.
I
ask
each
member
when
answering
the
role
to
indicate
in
the
response
whether
they
are
here
in
the
room
or
here
remotely
legislative
members.
If
you
are
remote,
please
let
us
know
if
you're
in
the
annex
office
or
participating
from
your
district
sasha,
would
you
please
call
the
roll.
A
C
A
Have
a
second
second,
we
have
a
motion
in
a
second
all,
those
in
favor
aye
aye.
Any
opposed
no
minutes
are
approved.
We're
gonna
move
on
to
our
first
item.
We
have
a
pretty
pretty
healthy
agenda
today
and
when
we
get
started
on
that
at
this
point
I
would
like
to
ask
our
auditor
of
public
accounts
mike
harmon
and
anyone
that
will
be
presenting
with
him
to
come
forward.
A
F
My
name
is
auditor
mike
harmon
have
with
me
today,
john.
I
want
to
introduce
yourself.
D
F
You
may
begin.
Thank
you,
mr
chairman.
First
of
all,
thank
you
for
the
opportunity
to
come
and
testify
before
this
committee,
when
we
just
to
start
want
to
talk
a
little
bit
today
about
the
focus
of
today's
testimony,
we're
looking
specifically
at
the
fiscal
year
2020
which,
just
to
remind
everybody
fiscal
year,
2020
ended
june
30th
of
2020.
F
and-
and
I
also
want
to
be
just
a
little
bit
clear
from
the
beginning
that
today,
I'm
here
to
just,
as
I
said,
just
discuss,
2020
so
fiscal
year.
2021
audit
work
is
currently
underway.
That
particular
aspect.
We
won't
be
discussing
that
directly.
F
F
Once
again,
one
of
the
things
that
we
look
at
the
nature
of
our
audits,
we
look
backwards
as
opposed
to
forwards.
I
I
have
a
joke
that
I
tell
with
the
treasure
that
she
always
talks
about
being
the
watchdog,
and
I
talk
about
to
be
in
the
watchdog,
but
I
said
the
treasure
is
the
watchdog
on
the
front
end
we're
the
watch
dog
on
the
back
end.
So
together
we
got
your
dog
covered,
so
always
important
to
remember,
and
also
what's
important,
to
remember.
F
As
I
said,
since
this
ended
fiscal
year,
2020
ended
june
30th
2020,
really
most
of
the
substantial
findings
deals
specifically
with
the
first
three
months
of
the
pandemic,
so
we
won't
see
it
you'll,
see
more
of
that.
I
would
imagine
in
fiscal
year
2021
every
year
the
state
does
what's
known
as
an
annual
comprehensive
financial
report,
and
every
year
the
auditor
of
public
accounts
is
charged
with
auditing.
F
The
comprehensive
annual
report
in
december
of
2020
apa
issued
a
qualified
audit
opinion
on
the
unemployment
fund
because
of
the
internal
control
environment
and
also
the
unknown
amount
that
was
owed
to
those
who'd
filed
for
unemployment
benefits
during
fiscal
year.
F
Estimates
were
provided
anywhere
from
about
89
million
to
as
much
as
2.08
billion,
like
I
said,
we'll
talk
about
that
just
a
little
bit
later,
but
because
they
were
uncertain
of
what
they
actually
owed.
That's
part
of
what
caused
that
qualified
opinion
now
also
as
part.
Every
year
we
do
what's
known
as
the
statewide
single
out
of
kentucky.
F
Today,
we'll
be
talking
about
volume,
one
in
volume,
two
2.,
of
course,
apa
conducts
the
swac
as
we
call
it
to
meet
the
federal
single
audit
act,
requirements
that
apply
to
all
state
and
local
governments
expending
federal
awards
of
750
000
or
more
volume.
One
of
the
swac
reports
on
the
financial
and
internal
control
findings
from
the
act
for
there
were
basically
25
findings
in
volume.
One
this
year,
a
little
more
than
half
of
those
dealt
specifically
with
the
office
of
unemployment
insurance,
swag
volume.
One
was
released
in
february
of
2021.
F
Now
volume
2
volume
2
basically
looks
at
federal
requirements
and
federal
awards.
There
were
21
findings
for
the
fiscal
year,
2020.
eight
of
those
dealt
specifically
with
the
office
of
unemployment
insurance
and
the
unemployment
insurance
fund
kentucky
spent
over
17.5
billion
in
federal
awards
up
4.7
billion
from
fiscal
year
2019..
F
F
Now,
during
the
onset
of
the
covet
19
pandemic,
obviously
there
was
a
lot
of
business
closures.
This
was
an
unprecedented
time,
an
unprecedented
challenge
that
faced
and
due
to
so
many
businesses
being
closed.
Unfortunately,
the
ui
system
was
flooded
flooded
with
claims.
In
one
month
in
march,
we
saw
a
little
over
49
000
new
claims.
Just
in
one
week,
the
following
week
there
was
a
little
over
a
hundred
and
thirteen
thousand
claims
filed.
So,
as
you
can
imagine,
the
system
truly
was
getting
overwhelmed.
F
In
addition,
with
the
advent
of
the
cares
act,
there
were
several
new
federal
unemployment
programs
that
were
created.
The
three
that
we
were
focused
on
was
the
pandemic
unemployment,
assistance
or
pua
the
pandemic,
emergency
unemployment
compensation
or
the
federal
pandemic
unemployment.
Compensation
was
a
third
one
or
f
pug.
F
If
you
look
at
the
pandemic,
unemployment
assistance
or
pua
pua
dealt
specifically
with
more
like
the
gig
economy.
Traditionally,
those
who
were
un,
I
mean
self-employed.
F
You
know
one
of
the
things
that
we
had
looked
at
in
order
to
pay
the
claims
as
quickly
as
possible,
oui
determined
that
anyone
who
applied
for
pua
benefits
and
was
deemed
eligible
they
would
receive
what
they
considered
to
be
the
minimum
amount.
Now,
once
we
started
looking
at
it,
the
what
they
had
listed
is
the
minimum
amount
was
180,
but
the
correct
amount
that
was
provided
should
have
been
176.
F
In
addition,
when
pua
was
initially
launched,
oui
management
determined
that
all
pua
claims
would
be
automatically
backdated
to
march
1st
2020..
As
a
result
there.
Certainly
there
were
claimants
who
had
applied
for
and
received
unemployment
benefits,
while
they
were
in
fact,
still
employed
now.
The
pandemic
emergency
unemployment
compensation
that
was
an
additional
13
weeks
for
individuals
who
had
exhausted
their
traditional
unemployment
benefits,
so
that
provided
them
a
little
bit
more
time
and
then,
of
course,
the
federal
pandemic,
unemployment,
compensation
or
f
puck.
F
F
F
Now,
during
this
time
frame.
One
of
the
things
that
we
identified
was
something
that
the
administration
labeled
as
auto
pay.
Basically,
they
had
auto
pay
put
in
place.
Certainly
it
was
very
well
intended
and
what
they
did.
One
of
the
things
that
occurred,
however,
in
oui
leadership,
made
this
decision
that,
based
on
the
decision,
actually
led
to
federal
law
violations,
and
certainly
we
believe
it
sacrificed
the
program
integrity
in
an
attempt
to
more
quickly
get
payments
to
the
unemployment
individuals.
F
Like
I
said
it
was,
it
was
probably
very
well
intended
good
intentions,
bad
results,
but
what
autopay
did
it
allowed?
Ui
benefits
to
be
automatically
paid
without
requiring
claimants
to
report
their
weekly
wages?
This
information
was
needed
to
determine
whether
or
not
they
were
actually
eligible
for
the
benefits.
F
F
Now,
during
that
time
frame
payments
during
that
time
frame,
there
was
a
17.8
million
that
was
paid
in
traditional
unemployment.
There
was
129.9
million,
was
paid
in
pua
benefits
and
there
was
507.7
million
was
paid
in
the
fp
benefits.
Now,
while
not
all
of
these
payments
were
improper,
they
were
certainly
paid
out
in
a
controlled
environment
that
was
highly
conducive
to
improper
or
even
fraudulent
payments,
and
certainly
a
good
illustration
of
that
that
we'll
look
at
in
just
a
second
was
the
payments
that
were
actually
paid
to
full-time
state
employees.
F
So
just
to
kind
of
look
a
little
bit
at
that
we
did
a.
We
did
a
random
sample
of
37
state
employees.
What
we
found
was
that
16
of
those
full-time
state
employees
now
these
were
full-time
state
employees
that
were
still
receiving
their
full-time
benefit,
but
perhaps
had
received
a
or
had
lost
a
part-time
job
and,
of
course,
during
this
time
frame,
you
know
everybody
was
encouraging
everybody
if
they
had
lost
just
a
little
bit
of
income
to
apply.
F
So
these
there
were
16
of
these
that
we
looked
at,
even
though
they
were
still
full
time
that
they
had
received
both
traditional
as
well
as
the
additional
600
enhancement,
despite
the
fact
that
they
didn't
qualify
for
either
one.
Now,
when
you
look
and
we
actually
had,
there
was
one
person
we
looked
at
one
employee
that
had
resigned
from
the
state
and
lost
a
part-time
job.
They
were
actually
underpaid
a
thousand
thirty.
So
if
you
look
at
the
overall
net
of
those
37,
as
I
said
again,
it's
a
sample.
F
F
Now,
how
did
autopay
contribute
to
this
pro
this
situation
or
the
improper
state
employee
payments?
Basically,
claimants
are
normally
under
normal
circumstances,
are
required
to
report
any
earnings
during
the
week
for
which
they
are
claiming
benefits
and,
of
course,
those
full-time
wages
are.
What
would
have
made
the
payments
to
the
employees
ineligible
for
those
benefits,
but
with
the
adoption
of
the
auto
pay
policy,
it
basically
eliminated
that
situation
where
you
didn't,
they
didn't
ask
basically
the
simple
question:
you
know:
are
you
you?
F
What
sort
of
income
do
you
have
outside
and
so
since
they
didn't
ask
that
it
did
cause
some
concern
now
I
I
will
say
that
you
know
you
know.
A
lot
of
people
have
asked
me,
you
know:
do
you
think
they
should
have
known?
Well,
perhaps
I'm
not
sure,
but
you
know
there
were
key
controls
taken
off
they
would.
F
They
had
applied
for
it
and
we
determined
that
they
had
accessed
their
own
claims.
This
was
despite
the
fact
that
there
was
training
for
them
to
specifically
not
access
their
own
claims.
Now
our
auditors
could
not
make
a
determination
as
to
whether
or
not
they
had
made
changes
or
taken
stops
off,
but
by
the
mere
fact
that
they
had
accessed
their
own
claims,
even
though
they
had
training
to
the
otherwise.
F
When
we
look
some
of
the
other
concerns
that
we
had
in
this
particular
audit,
our
audits,
we
had
pervasive
errors
and
miscalculations
auditors
reviewed
a
random
sample
of
99
claim
weeks.
So
this
is
a
claim
week
for
one
individual
one
week
for
31
claim
weeks.
Incorrect
amounts
were
posted
to
employer
accounts
and
for
traditional
unemployment.
As
you
know,
these
charges
are
used
to
calculate
the
employer
contribution
rates
for
31
claim
weeks.
Benefits
were
not
calculated
correctly.
F
These
areas
errors
cumulatively
amounted
to
about
17830
in
overpayments
and
1926
and
underpayments.
Once
again,
this
is
based
on
the
sample.
Additionally,
18
867
was
overpaid
because
of
oui
back
dating
poo
and
f
claims
to
march
first
to
individuals
who
were
still
employed
during
the
weeks
for
which
they
were
paid.
F
Now,
as
a
talked
about
earlier,
we're
going
to
talk
a
little
bit
about
what
is
the
definition
of
question
cost
when
a
cost
is
questioned
by
an
auditor
because
of
an
audit
finding
that
resulted
from
a
violation
of
federal
law
or
terms
of
federal
award.
F
F
Apa
issued
an
adverse
opinion
on
kentucky's
appliance
with
federal
unemployment
insurance
program
requirements
based
on
the
findings
in
the
swac
volume
2.,
the
oui
findings
were
significant
enough
to
indicate
the
commonwealth
did
not
materially
comply
with
the
federal
requirements
for
the
ui
program.
Now,
in
common
terms,
adverse
is
actually
the
worst
opinion
that
can
be
issued
during
an
audit.
Now,
all
swac
findings
are
uploaded
to
a
clearing
house
that
reports
in
the
federal
clearinghouse
that
reports,
the
information
to
federal
oversight,
agencies.
F
F
Also,
some
of
the
other
findings
that
we
had
during
the
swac
we
determined
that
federally
mandated
and
state
required
monthly
system
security
checks
were
not
performed.
This
was
a
requirement
and
sadly
they
were
not
performed.
The
ui
mainframe
performed
various
tasks
that
were
undocumented,
for
which
no
one
at
ui
or
cot
could
provide
an
explanation.
So,
basically
there
were
things
going
on.
F
They
could
tell
that
something
was
going
on,
but
they
didn't
really
know
what
was
you
know
what
was
causing
it
from
a
standpoint
system
updates
and
software
changes
were
pushed
through
with
improper
and
missing
documentation,
lack
of
testing
and
implementation
even
of
the
agency's
own
policies.
So
they
had
policies
in
place
about
how
to
implement
new
programs,
but
they
didn't
even
follow
their
own
policies.
In
some
cases,
oui
failed
to
report
data
breaches,
as
required
by
krs.
F
Many
of
you
may
know
that
my
predecessor
pushed
for
and
got
breach.
Laws
passed
when
I
was
in
the
house
actually
voted
for
those
breach
laws,
there's
a
requirement
that,
within
72
hours
after
a
breach,
occurs
that
they're
supposed
to
notify
the
auditor's
office,
the
attorney
general,
the
kentucky
state
police
and
some
other
agencies.
However,
there
were
at
least
two
that
we
know
of
that
went
at
least
a
month,
if
not
two
prior
to
being
reported.
F
F
F
Now
getting
back
to
what
I
talked
about
before
our
qualified
opinion
for
the
act
for
the
annual
comprehensive
financial
report
for
2020.
oui
did
not
provide
the
reliable
estimate.
That's
what
I
was
talking
about
earlier.
This
led
to
the
qualified
opinion
for
the
unemployment
compensation
fund
for
the
commonwealth's
fiscal
year.
2020
accurate,
as
I
indicated,
oui,
did
not
realize
that
an
estimate
was
needed,
but
once
they
did
realize
that
an
estimate
was
needed
for
the
fiscal
20
claims.
F
Estimates
were
provided
anywhere
from
little
almost
89
million
to
as
much
as
2.08
billion,
and
you
know
once
again.
If
they
did
not
have
confidence
in
their
own
numbers,
it
would
be
difficult
for
our
auditors
to
have
confidence
in
it.
Auditors
learned
that
oui
was
still
receiving
and
in
some
cases,
finding
new
fiscal
year,
20
claims
even
into
october
of
2020,
which
certainly
made
it
difficult
to
calculate
an
accurate
estimate.
F
Sorry,
quite
all
right,
although
oui
officials
made
high-risk
decisions
such
as
implementing
the
autopay
policy
in
an
attempt
to
pay
benefits
more
quickly,
many
claims
still
were
not
timely,
processed.
Now,
as
of
october
29
2020,
the
claims
backlog
of
the
unprocessed
initial
jobless
claims
totaled
approximately
80
000..
Now
we
we
actually
looked
at
some
more
recent.
Now
these
were
media
reports.
This
was
not
from
our
office,
but
as
of
june
2nd
2021,
there
were
still
over
9800
claims
filed
in
early
2020
that
remained
pending.
F
Also,
as
of
the
june,
more
than
120
000
unresolved
claims
were
pending
and
56
000
of
those
were
presumed
fraudulent.
Once
again,
those
were
from
media
claims
not
from
our
audit
work
and
then
perhaps
the
thing-
and
most
of
you
have
heard
this,
but
you
know
maybe
the
thing
that
broke
my
heart,
the
most
in
looking
at
this
report
was
we
determined
or
found
out
that
there
was
well
over
400
000
emails
that
were
sent
to
the
unemployment
assistant,
email
link
that
went
unread
and
were
archived
without
being
read.
F
Once
again,
going
back
to
what
I
talked
about
at
the
beginning
fiscal
year,
2021
ended
on
june
30th
of
2021
apa.
Auditors
are
in
the
early
stages
of
that
work
on
audit
of
the
commonwealth's
annual,
comprehensive
financial
report
of
the
ackford
and
the
statewide
single
audit
for
fiscal
year.
2021.
F
now
apa
will
issue
an
audit
opinion
on
the
act
for
typically
near
the
end
of
the
calendar.
You
know
this
last
year
we
did
it
in
december.
In
early
2022,
apa
will
release
swag
reports
for
fiscal
year,
2021
volume,
one
once
again
on
the
financial
statement
in
internal
control.
Findings,
usually
about
february,
give
or
take
volume
two
on
the
federal
program,
compliance
and
that's
generally
lights
spring
now,
certainly
as
required
as
part
of
our
audit
process.
Auditors
follow
up
on
prior
year
findings,
so
our
audit
team
will
be
spending
certainly
quite
a
bit
more
time.
F
Looking
at
oui.
Additionally,
I'm
sure
you've
seen
news
stories
or
maybe
even
personally,
experienced
the
huge
number
of
fraudulent
ui
claims
that
were
filed
last
year.
So
obviously
there
there's
going
to
be
a
lot
of
risk
to
be
evaluated
as
part
of
the
audit
process.
Now,
beyond
those
sorts
of
just
general
statements
about
the
audit
process-
and
I
do
just
want
to
iterate-
I-
I
cannot
discuss
details
the
ongoing
audit,
both
because
auditing
standards
would
prohibit
that,
and
also
because
I
am
not
personally
involved
in
any
audits
of
the
state
agencies.
F
Now,
obviously,
there's
been
a
a
lot
of
challenges
for
the
unemployment
program
over
the
last
year,
and
I
just
want
to
stress
that
the
role
of
the
auditor
is
to
identify
issues
and
make
recommendations
to
help
correct
those
problems.
So
hopefully
we
can
avoid
them
in
the
future.
Now
I
think
government,
I
think
government
works
most
efficiently
when
all
parts
of
it
are
working
together
to
do
their
job,
and
I
look
forward
to
having
more
information
to
share
after
my
office
completes
the
fiscal
year
2021..
A
A
I
do
have
a
do
want
to
begin
with
with
a
couple
here
sure
I
want
to
go
back
to
the
move
to
auto
pay.
Yes-
and
you
indicated-
and
I
did
not
get
this
down
at
the
time-
who
advised
the
office
of
unemployment
insurance
not
to
go
the
route
of
autopay.
F
Leadership:
leadership
within
the
office
of
unemployment
they
had
indicated.
That
was
the
direction
that
we
wanted
to
take.
However,
there
was
long-term
leadership
within
the
office
of
unemployment
insurance,
as
well
as
within
cot
that
encouraged
him
not
to
go
that
direction.
Now
that
that
decision
may
have
gone
up
even
higher
than
that,
it
could
have
been
captured.
G
A
Leadership
not
to
go
with
the
the
auto
pay
route.
G
That's
correct
chairman.
The
the
audit
evidence
supported
the
statement
in
the
finding
that
was
seasoned
staff,
both
within
the
office
of
unemployment
insurance,
as
well
as
the
commonwealth
office
of
technology,
who
advised
that
there
were
major
concerns
with
that
decision.
But
the
decision
was
proceeded
with.
A
Okay,
thank
you.
Thank
you
appreciate
that
I
want
to
go
back
to,
and
these
pages
aren't
numbered,
so
I'm
going
to
go
back
to
employees
accessing
their
own
claims
and.
B
A
F
I
I
can't
speak
to
these.
Specifically,
you
know
these
ten.
We
do
know
that
stops,
for.
I
can't
speak
specifically
to
these
10
because
they
don't
have
that
information.
We
can
probably
you.
F
To
find
that
out,
but
they
don't
have
that
information
with
us
today,
but
what
we
do
know
is
that
they
in
fact
accessed
their
own
accounts,
even
though
they
were
council,
even
though
they
were
trained
not
to
access
their
own
accounts.
What
our
auditors
couldn't
determine
as
indicated
here,
is
that
they
they
were
trained
specifically
not
to
access
those
accounts,
and
that's
also
one
of
the
reasons
why
we
have
referred
this
on
to
the
office
of
attorney
general,
as
well
as
to
the
executive
branch
ethics
commission,
correct.
A
And
I
and
I
understand
your
role
there
was
to
audit
that
I
just
want
to
know
if,
if,
if
your
office
would
have
had
any
ability
to
to
determined
whether
those
stops
were
lifted,
and
certainly
if
not
going
forward,
we
need
to
make
sure
that,
within
that
within
that
department,
that
their
technology,
whatever
we
need
to
do,
will
be
able
to
capture
any
any
type
of
activity
like
that
in
the
future.
Because
I
think
that's
that's
vital.
A
B
F
And
our
auditors
review
a
lot
of
guidance,
a
lot
of
information.
You
know,
for
instance,
you
know
we
referenced
the
fact
that
they
had
been
specifically
trained
not
to
the
only
way
that
they
would
have
known.
That
is
if
they
had
looked
at
you
know,
trading
training
guides,
training,
information,
training
dates,
but
also
you
know
one
of
the
things
that
we
looked
at
specifically,
you
know
when
we
talked
about
just
like
the
scans,
the
security
scans.
G
G
Well,
we
we
looked
at
policies,
for
example,
as
auditor
harmon
said,
on
on
things
like
rolling
out
new
changes
in
their
software
system.
They
had
policies
in
place
for
certain
tests
and
protocols
that
needed
to
be
run
before
those
system
changes
were
implemented.
One
of
the
findings
was
that
those
policies
were
not
followed.
That
changes
were
rolled
out
into
the
system
before
the
testing
had
all
been
completed
in
accordance
with
the
policy.
So
that's
just
just
one
example,
but
in
many
instances
we
do
look
to
see
a
do.
A
H
Thank
you
chairman
to
clarify.
You
said
they
had
policies
where
they
just
said.
Don't
do
this
or
were
there
actual
codes
that
they
had
to
get
from
higher
ups
to
be
able
in
many
instances,
for
instance,
if
I'm
handling
your
claim-
and
I
go
so
far-
and
it
has
to
have
a
follow-up,
I
need
a
code
from
a
higher
up
and
I
get
that
code.
H
Were
these
codes
used,
maybe
that
they
obtained
from
them
earlier
to
do
their
own,
for
instance,
instead
of
getting
a
number
or
someone
punching
in
you
see
it
at
stores
all
the
time
where
they
have
to
have
a
supervisor
punch
in
a
number
to
to
okay,
something
were
those
numbers
used,
are
given
to
them
and
then
used
later.
G
I
Thank
you
guys
for
testifying.
Today
again
you
look
at
the
auto
pay.
Evidently
the
clt
said:
don't
do
this.
I
F
I
What
was
the
oversight
of
all
this?
I
mean
again?
Does
it
start
the
top
and
come
down
go
from
bottom
come
up?
How
was
how
were
they
able
to
do
all
this
without
somebody
raising
a
red
flag?
You
know,
I
can
tell
you
my
company,
you
break
a
positive
procedure.
There
are
severe
consequences
to
that,
but
evidently
who
was
overseeing
it,
I'm
trying
to
figure
out
how
was
this
complete
oversight
able
to
go
on
like
this
or
do
you
have
a
good
answer?
I
do
not
have
a
good.
F
G
I
think
we've
described
it
as
a
systemic
failure
of
leadership.
We
weren't
able
to
pinpoint
a
specific
individual
who
made
made
a
go-ahead
decision
but
represented
pratt.
Just
as
you
said,
you
know
you
had
you
had
warnings,
and
this
autopay
situation
was
entirely
avoidable.
If
that
advice
had
been
heated.
I
I
agree
you
know
and
now
they're
asking
us
now:
they
went
from
20
million
to
build
a
computer
system
instead
of
buying
it
off
the
shelf.
Now
they
want
to
build
it
from
the
ground
up
and
go
60
80
million
dollars.
It's
not
the
computer
system.
The
problem
sounds
like
to
me:
it's
lack
of
leadership
to
say,
okay.
This
is
how
you
do
it
is
how
you
not
do
it.
You
know
it
really
bothers
me.
Also
usdl
has
a
monitoring
report.
Have
you
all
seen
that
I
don't
know?
I
I
am
not
sure
you
may
want
to
ask
for
that,
and
look
at
that.
I
think
that'd
be
very
interesting
to
see
what
they
have
to
say
about
all
this
telso,
because
again,
that's
all
tied
into
the
federal
money
we're
getting.
But
again,
you
know
this
is
sound
like
to
me
again.
They
had
the
systems
in
place
and
the
things
to
stop
this
from
happening.
They
just
for
some
odd
reason,
decide
not
to
follow
a
policy
procedure
which
is
a
no
no.
I
I
don't
care
what
level,
whether
you're
a
one
person
or
a
two
thousand
person
company
you
just
don't
do
that
and
that's
why
those
are
put
in
that's
why
you
do
those
well,
certainly
anytime,.
I
D
D
E
Sharp
thank
you,
mr
chairman,
thank
you
guys
for
being
here
today
to
testify
I've.
I've
got
basically
two
questions,
one's
really
a
clarification
questions,
but
we
were
talking
about
earlier
lifting
the
stops
and
in
normal
procedures.
If,
if
one
of
the
employees
the
ui
employees
lifted
a
stop,
would
that
end?
Would
that
be
indicated
in
the
computer
system.
G
I
believe
so,
I
think
the
issue
that
we
had
and
that
ties
in
with
what
sort
of
with
what
chairman
nemes
was
mentioning
earlier.
I
believe
we
can
see
that
stops
were
lifted,
but
we
couldn't
see
specifically,
who
lifted.
E
F
B
Thank
you,
mr
chair,
similar
to
representative
sharp.
I
have
also
two
questions.
B
D
B
B
I
added
up
what
you
were
able
to
find
in
the
claims
that
you
looked
at,
which
were
the
numbers
presented
on
slides,
14
and
17,
which
is
116
000
related
to
the
state
employees.
And
then
the
99
claims
that
you
looked
at.
That
resulted
in
a
17,
000
and
18
000
overpayment
offset
by
a
little
bit
of
underpayment
and.
G
B
B
C
B
G
F
F
Well,
I
think
I
think
what
sarah
beth's
trying
to
say
is
what
we're
looking
at
is
just
those
samples.
If
you
extrapolated
out
the
money
that
you
know
even
take
the
37
state
employees,
we
don't
have
a
number
of
how
many
state
employees
actually
participated
in
it.
But
if
you
extrapolate
that
out,
it
will
probably
be
a
much
much
larger
number.
F
G
In
this
audit
testing,
we're
not
trying
to
calculate
a
total
amount
of
errors
and
and
miscalculations
we're
trying
to
identify
the
issues,
internal
control
and
processing
issues
that
impact
the
commonwealth's
financial
statements.
We
tested
a
large
enough
sample
size
to
identify
quite
a
significant
issue
there,
and
that
is
what
is
written.
F
And
if
you
look
back,
I
mean
from
the
standpoint
we
questioned
about
670
million
and
cost
655
million
of
that
dealt
specifically
with
the
office
of
unemployment
insurance,
but
go
back
to
the
definition
of
question
cost
that
we're
not
saying
that
every
bit
of
that
was
paid
out
fraudulently.
What
we're
saying
is,
is
it
was
paid
out
in
a
fraudulent
environment
because
key
controls,
key
controls
that
are
required
by
the
federal
government,
were
actually
taken
off.
B
F
B
In
this
pandemic
it
feels
like
a
lifetime
ago,
and
a
lot
of
these
are
issues
that
have
been
brought
up.
Like
you
said
in
the
media,
and
you
know,
we've
actually
had
the
labor
cabinet
here
a
couple
of
other
times
during
our
meetings
and
we've
asked
them
a
lot
of
these
questions
that
that
you
brought
out
in
your
report
and
they've
answered
them.
They've
taken
care
of
a
lot
of
them
right.
A
lot
of
these
state
employees
have
been
fired.
B
I
think
some
of
those
400
000
emails,
some
of
those
claims
have
been
resolved
since
then.
You
know,
work
has
been
done
right.
Your
your
audit
was
from
a
moment
in
time.
B
So
you
know
my
question:
is
you've
you've
been
a
little
cagey
about
you
know,
I'm
not
auditing
state
agencies
right
now.
It's
cause
you're
running
for
governor
and
you
know
that's
a
kind
of
a
clear
bias
against
our
current
administration.
You
know
some
would
even
say
a
conflict
of
interest.
A
B
A
You
know
auditor
harmon
was
invited
to
this
committee
and
there
are
lots.
There
are
quite
a
few
folks
that
are
running
for
governor
and
I
don't
think
that
he
has
to
be
here
today
to
defend
himself.
He
is
a
statewide
constitutional
officer
that
has
duties
that
are
mandated
by
the
kentucky
constitution
and
kentucky
statutes.
A
F
Here
today,
well,
thank
you,
mr
chairman.
I
do
want
to
respond
because
I
think
it's
a
valid
question
from
a
standpoint
of
there
are
safeguards
in
place
before
I
got
to
the
auditor's
office
and
they're.
Well,
I'm
hoping
will
continue
to
be
safeguards
after
I
leave
the
auditor's
office
now.
That
being
said,
we
have
actually
enhanced
those
safeguards.
F
As
I
indicated,
I'm
not
directly
involved.
We
have
just
like
we
talked
about.
We've
got
seasoned
professionals
who
do
the
audits,
who
do
the
audits
you
know
every
year,
so
I
am
confident
my
first
charge
to
when
I
first
came
in
was
that
we
we
don't
target
anyone.
We
don't
everybody
pass.
We
just
simply
follow
the
data,
and
that
continues
to
be
my
charge.
The
other
thing
that
didn't
get
brought
up
is
remember
this
audit
from
fiscal
year
20
is
actually
covers.
Half
of
half
of
the
previous
administration
and
half
of
the
current.
F
F
So
our
role
is
just
to
present
the
data
in
full
and,
as
I
said,
find
the
data
confirm
the
data
and
report
the
data,
and
that
also
goes
back
to
why
some
of
this
is
a
little
bit
older,
because
we
we
don't,
you
know,
we
start
the
process
mainly
a
little
bit
goes
on
beforehand,
but
we
don't
start
the
process
until
the
fiscal
year
ends.
So,
but
I
appreciate
the
question
and
thank
you,
mr
chairman,.
C
Thank
you,
mr
chairman.
I'm
going
to
get
a
little
a
little
heated.
I
really
resent
those
comments.
Representative
cantrell,
sir
you're,
an
elected
official
statewide
official
elected
by
the
people
of
kentucky
to
serve
in
this
role
to
audit
government
to
make
sure
things
are
done.
Well,
I
remember
representative
cantrell
being
upset
about
it
when
andy
beshear
was
attorney
general
and
tried
to
get
before
committees
and
testify
and
did
things
while
he
was
running
for
governor
for
the
entirety
of
his
entire
time
in
office.
So
I
find
it
offensive.
C
We
have
individuals
that
are
elected
to
office
to
do
certain
roles
or
I
think
you've
done
your
role
well
and
I
think
you've
represented
yourself
well
a
couple
of
things.
I
wanted
to
make
a
comment
about
the
data
breach,
which
I
think
is
an
important
thing.
How
many
data
breaches
did
we
have
total
well?
This
was
under.
I
think
it
was
under
the
office
of
education
and
workforce
development
when
those
data
breaches
occurred.
How
many
occurred
total.
F
I
don't
know
the
specifics.
I
know
of
at
least
two
that
were
not
reported
until
after
well,
one
of
them
at
least
a
month,
one
of
them
at
least
two
months,
one
of
them
we
actually
found
out
through
a
different
source
and
really
wasn't
reported
officially
to
us
until
after
it
was
announced
during
a
press
conference.
C
And
yeah
I
mean
I
think
that
was
was
discovered
by
the
attorney
general.
So
what
happened
reported
to
the
governor
later?
Who
then
realized
that
his
lieutenant
governor,
who
was
the
the
secretary,
I
believe,
of
the
cabinet
at
that
time?
Who
was
overseeing
all
of
this?
Didn't
do
her
job
and
provided
some,
as
you
said,
poor
leadership,
I
think,
is
the
the
breakdown
in
this.
C
I
want
to
make
sure
people
remember
that
who
was
in
charge
of
this
was
the
person
that,
if
something
happens
to
our
governor,
would
then
be
governor
behind
him
and
was
in
charge
of
overseeing
the
cabinet.
Did
a
poor
job
broke
the
law
twice
and
frankly,
I
want
to
remind
individuals
too
individual
who,
let
others
cut
in
the
line
for
unemployment
insurance
benefits,
make
sure
her
hairdresser
got
special
treatment,
while
a
lot
of
people
couldn't
get
theirs.
C
We've
seen
that,
through
a
lot
of
their
internal
emails
of
how
they,
I
guess,
value
certain
people
that
are
close
to
them
for
their
own
personal
interests.
Another
thing
I
think
it's
in
under
the
autopay
policy.
I
wanted
to
make
sure
that
a
lot
of
the
reports
you're
having
here
was
this
under
well.
This
was
all,
under
the
I
mean,
there's
two
cabinets
who
have
been
overseeing
a
lot
of
our
unemployment
insurance
issues.
It's
currently
under
the
department
of
labor.
C
I
guess
of
embarrassment
hoping
nobody's
going
to
notice
and
when
we
had
obviously
the
kind
of
data
breaches,
and
now
we
have
people
applying
for
a
lot
of
these
unemployment
insurance
benefits.
I
can't
help
but
think
that
a
lot
of
people's
personal
information
was
used
for
the
fraudulent
claims
that
we've
got
going
forward.
So
when
a
lot
of
these
findings
that
you've
had
has
this
been
all
under
one
cabinet
under
both
cabinets?
You
said
it
transcends
over
two
administrations,
but
it
has,
it
have
been
under
both
of
them
or
just
one.
G
F
C
Good,
so
a
lot
of
it
so
after
it
was
moved
over
to
a
more
competent
cabinet,
apparently
from
what
I
would
view
as
an
incompetent
leadership,
somebody
puts
a
lot
of
the
citizens
of
kentucky's
personal
information.
I
mean
people
trust
state
government
to
protect
this
information.
We
have
laws
to
protect
it
from
private
employers
when
your
own
state
government
doesn't
do
a
good
job
for
the
sake
I
guess
of
trying
to
save
face,
I'm
not
sure
what
the
purpose
of
not
reporting
that
out
there
as
quickly
as
you
can.
C
I
find
that
offensive.
I
find
it
upsetting,
and
I
wanted
to
make
sure
that
the
committee
and
people
who
are
considering
that
going
forward
or
remind
themselves
who
was
in
charge
of
all
this
who
was
overseeing
it
all.
I
know
you
give
an
estimate
during
your
testimony
also
how
much
you
expect
to
be
out
in
fraudulent
claims.
C
I
understand
there's
some
members
of
the
committee
who
don't
understand
how
typical
audits
work.
I
know.
As
a
doctor,
I've
got
thousands
of
patient
records
when
medicare
and
medicaid
wants
to
audit
to
make
sure
that
I'm
building
things
properly,
they'll
pull
10
charts
and
if
they
find
hey.
Three
of
these
charts
are
improper.
That
extrapolates
to
30
of
your
charges
might
be
improper
and
they
do
what's
called
rack
audits
where
they
come
back
and
recoup
that,
if
I
want
to
say
well,
hey
you
only
found
three
charts
with
the
problems.
C
You
can
only
recoup
three
charts.
If
the
problems
is
naive
and
does
that's,
an
individual
doesn't
have
a
clear
understanding
of
how
auditing
happens.
So,
if
31
of
99
of
your
reviews,
that's
roughly
30
32
percent
of
the
information,
how
much
do
we
expect
and
how
much
do
we
think
is
actually
out
there
in
fraudulent
claims,
an
actual
dollar
amount?
Is
there
an
estimate.
G
I
don't
think
we
can
put
a
figure
on
that.
The
labor
cabinet
itself
might
have
an
estimate
on
that,
but
at
this
point
we
certainly
wouldn't
have
any
audited
data
and
really
wouldn't
be
in
a
position
to
make
an
estimate
on
that.
G
A
If
not,
auditor,
harmon
and
guests,
I
want
to
thank
you
all
for
being
here
today.
I
would
like
one
of
the
roles
of
this
task
force
is
to.
B
A
Recommendations
that
will
be
compiled
into
a
final
report.
I
am
going
to
ask
staff
if
you
will
incorporate
the
auditor's
various
recommendations
that
I
believe
fall
in
those
two
volumes
may
not
have
been
discussed
individually
today.
That
does
not
mean
that
they
will
necessarily
be
in
the
final
version
of
the
recommendations
that
we
submit
today,
but
I
do
want
those
incorporated
in
so
that
as
we
move
forward,
we
can
begin
looking
at
what's
there.
So
if
you
can
take
care
of
that,
I
certainly
would
appreciate
that.
I
thank
you
for
your
time
today.
A
A
E
Thank
you,
chairman
weber,
and
my
name
is
scott
sharp,
I'm
a
representative
for
the
100th
district
boyd
county,
and
this
is
one
of
the
constituents.
If
you
would
please
go
inter
introduce
yourself,
my.
E
I've
specifically
asked
a
question
that
you
know
is
that
being
fixed
and
we've
been
told
that
it
has
been
fixed
well
recently
here
mr
boyles
has
gotten
an
unemployment
and
in-person
appointment,
and
I
would
like
for
him
to
go
ahead
and
and
talk
about
this
appointment
form
and
how
he
went
about
getting
that.
If
you
would
please.
Okay,
no.
J
After
after
receiving
the
paperwork
that
there
had
been
a
a
hack
on
the
information,
I've
sent
a
pin
and
tried
to
proceed
with
that.
Pin
with
no
luck.
J
J
J
But
I've
been
waiting
since
january
to
to
hear
anything
back,
that
I've
got
an
approval
letter,
a
monetary
letter
and
a
a
final
determination,
but
that's
as
far
as
I've
made
it
and
I
got
a
check
for
10
cents
on
two
two
or
three
weeks
ago
for
10
cents.
J
J
E
All
right,
mr
boyles,
how
far
is
hopkinsville
from
ashland
like
five
hours,
it's
a
five
hour
drive
to
get
this
appointment
and
when
you
were
setting
the
appointment
up
on
the
web,
was
there
any
other
option
that
that
gave
you
to
go
instead
of
going
to
hopkins
villa?
There
was
another
option
there.
You
could
have
clicked
to
avoid
that
appointment
in
hopkinsville,
nothing
that.
E
It
was
in
july,
it's
in
july,
so
it's
about
the
30
45
days
ago,
yeah,
okay,
around
the
19th
of
august
and
you've
had
to
cancel
that
yes,
okay
and
so
you're
back,
where
you're
at
in
limbo,
okay
and
well.
E
Mr
chairman,
this
is
one
of
the
things
I
wanted
to
bring
to
the
attention
of
this
task
force
that
we're
still
having
these
problems
that
have
been
addressed
at
least
twice
in
this
committee,
and
it's
it's
still
not
getting
fixed,
though
we've
been
assured
by
the
cabinet
that
it
has,
and
I
wanted
to
make
sure
that
mr
boyle's
issues
came
here,
we're
on
the
record
and
we
can
next
time
we
get
the
cabinet.
Here.
We
can
ask
specific
questions.
A
Real
kentuckians,
on
the
face
of
what
of
what's
going
on
here
and
and
mr
boyle's,
I
don't
know
how
much
representative
sharp
has
informed
you
of
the
purpose
of
this
task
force,
but
we're
looking
at
what's
happened
since
march
of
2020
and
the
and
and
the
various
things
that
have
gone
on
with
with
unemployment
thousands
of
kentuckians.
A
I
know
he
has
the
folks
in
his
district
like
you
that
have
not
received
payments,
I
have
them
every
every
member
of
this
committee
task
force
here
is
in
a
similar
situation.
Moving
forward.
This
task
force
is
going
to
be
making
some
recommendations
to
the
full
general
assembly
for
ways
to
improve
the
system,
and
I
think
what
we're
highlighting
today
and
you
being
here-
and
I
do
appreciate
you
driving
all
the
way
from
ashland
yeah.
A
For
that
you
know
I
I'm
closer
to
hopkinsville
than
you
are,
and
I
wouldn't
necessarily
want
to
have
to
drive
to
hopkinsville,
but
but
your
your
situation
is
one
that
we're
going
to
be
able
to
to
highlight
what
needs
to
be
fixed
in
our
system.
What
needs
to
be
addressed
and
as
we
move
forward
developing
a
new
system
of
technology,
that's
hopefully
going
to
make
unemployment
insurance
in
the
future
more
efficient.
A
A
And
you're
in
the
same
boat,
with
thousands
of
other
people
co-chair
nemas
has
a
comment
or
question
just
thank
you.
H
Chairman
just
for
your
benefit
and
anybody
listening,
the
labor
cabinet
has
now
instead
of
having
to
drive
for
in
person.
If
you
want
to
do
a
online
or
a
conference
call
or
a
zoom
meeting
with
them.
When
you
apply
for
the
in
person,
they
can
change
it
to
that.
So
you
don't
have
to
drive
five
hours
yeah,
because
because
of
people
like
you
that
have
had
that
problem,
they
have
changed
that
okay,
so,
and
I
think
the
10
cents
was
something
that
was
yeah.
I
found.
J
H
Kind
of
ridiculous:
it's
a
debit
card
refund.
We
would
prefer
to
have
our
unemployment
insurance
not
to
refund
for
the
debit
card,
but
that's
right,
that's
what
that
is,
so
maybe
that
will
help
you
in
the
future
and
thank
you
for
bringing
these
things
to
our
attention.
So
we
can
address
that.
I
appreciate
you
having
me.
E
Okay,
I
want
to
thank
mr
boyles
for
making
a
drive
down
here
and
his
wife
trish
for
coming
along,
and
I
appreciate
that
I
think
thank
you
guys.
A
We'll
now
move
to
our
final
presenter
today,
mr
joe
horvath,
a
senior
fellow
with
the
foundation
for
government
accountability,
will
be
coming
today.
I
asked
mr
horvath
to
come.
His
organization
has
looked
at
unemployment
insurance
across
the
country
and
he
will
have
some
recommendations
here
today,
based
on
successes
or
programs
that
have
worked
in
other
states.
B
K
Yes,
sir,
absolutely
my
name
is
joe
horvath,
I'm
a
senior
fellow
at
the
foundation
for
government
accountability,
and
I
wanted
to
start
by
saying
thank
you.
I've
been
traveling
to
a
lot
of
states
over
the
past
18
months
at
the
start
of
the
pandemic,
talking
about
unemployment
systems
and
there
aren't
a
lot
of
committees,
legislatures
legislators,
who
are
as
day-to-day
involved
and
proactive
and
responsive
to
some
of
these
issues,
including
in
states
that
have
had
very
similar
challenges.
We're
talking
michigan
ohio,
some.
K
K
K
Yeah
should
have
thought
of
that.
Thank
you,
sorry
about
that.
So,
as
I
was
saying,
I'm
I'm
grateful
that
that
mr
harmon
came
today
because
my
presentation
for
you
is
gonna,
be
slightly
higher
level.
Ten
thousand
foot
looking
forward
what
you
do
now
kind
of
position,
and
I'm
grateful
for
that,
because
I
really
don't
think
I'd
be
able
to
out
detail
an
auditor.
K
So
let's
just
go
in
right
and
dive
right
into
what
we're
talking
about
we're
talking
about
revitalizing
your
unemployment
system
in
three
simple
steps:
they're
not
going
to
be
easy
steps,
but
they're
going
to
be
simple
steps,
but
first
I
want
to
make
sure
we're
all
on
the
same
page
talk
about
what
unemployment
is
and
is
not
and
the
importance
of
good
unemployment
policy
and
how
it
affects
more
than
just
your
system
and
then
we're
going
to
talk
about
how
looking
at
unemployment
policy
through
the
lens
of
it
being
like
a
car
is
helpful
and
then
last,
of
course,
will
be
some
policy
recommendations
that
are
parsed
from
other
states
across
the
country.
K
So,
first
of
all,
let's
talk
about
what
unemployment
is
and
it's
important
to
remember.
This
because,
when
you
look
at
what
the
system
is
and
what
it
was
created
to
be
in
general
normal
times,
things
that
are
going
to
keep
you
moving
in,
that
direction
are
going
to
be
generally
good
policy,
whereas
things
that
are
going
to
be
leaning
towards
what
it's
not
are
going
to
be
bad
policy.
K
So
when
unemployment
was
created,
great
great
depression,
error
program,
it
was
meant
for
as
temporary
limited
assistance
for
individuals
who
were
laid
off
through
no
harm
through
no
fault
of
their
own.
It
was
intentionally
temporary
and
limited,
and
the
first
social
security
administrator
who
was
in
charge
of
the
program
would
go
on
record
routinely
saying
that
saying
the
point
of
unemployment
is
re-employment,
it's
modeled
after
insurance
and
of
course,
as
you
all
know,
by
now
it's
paid
for
through
payroll
taxes
placed
on
the
wages
that
employers
give
their
workers.
K
But
let's
talk
about
what
unemployment
is
not
it's
not
long-term,
full
wage
replacement.
It's
not
a
workforce
development
program
in
the
sense
that
you
take
as
long
as
you
possibly
need
to
find
the
perfect
job.
Suitable
work
is
the
letter
of
the
law
all
over
the
country
that
follows
federal
regulation.
K
Of
course,
it's
also
not
paid
for
by
workers.
So
it's
not
a
general
entitlement,
the
way
others
are
understood
to
be,
and
lastly,
it's
it's
not
a
disability
program.
I
don't
think
that
comes
to
issue
in
your
state
frankly,
but
when
we
talk
about
what
it
is
and
what
it
is
not
why
you
want
to
keep
your
program
moving
in
the
is
direction
in
the
good
direction
is
because
it's
going
to
affect
more
than
just
your
system
why
unemployment
policy
matters?
K
Let's
talk
taxes
for
a
second
and
I've,
got
three
states
here
and
we're
comparing
them
to
you
guys
right
now.
It's
a
lot
of
numbers
I'll
go
through
this
pretty
quickly
the
column.
All
the
way
to
the
right
is
just
comparing
your
apples
to
apples,
unemployment,
tax
burden
that
businesses
have
with
florida,
georgia
and
north
carolina,
and
we
picked
those
states
for
a
reason.
K
It's
going
to
be
very
apparent
to
you
in
a
bit,
but
these
are
the
kind
of
states
that
have
following
the
great
recession,
recreated
their
unemployment
programs
to
be
as
competitive
and
fair
as
possible,
because
remember
when
an
individual
when
an
individual
is
laid
off
and
it's
unfortunate
and
they're
filing
an
unemployment
claim.
That
means,
by
definition,
that
individual
is
not
working,
they're,
deprived
of
work.
K
The
more
claims
that
a
system
undergoes
the
higher
the
taxes
go
up
and
the
higher
the
taxes
go
up.
The
less
businesses
have
to
reinvest
in
their
companies
and,
as
the
gao
has
repeatedly
reported,
there
is
a
statistically
relevant
correlation
between
higher
unemployment,
tax
unemployment,
taxes
and
higher
unemployment
rates.
K
K
So
year
over
year,
you're
right
now,
you're
in
a
similar
place.
There's
a
lot
of
other
states
heavily
drawn
down
heavily
over
leveraged,
which
leaves
you
in
a
position
that
you
can't.
Quite
you
know
you
can't
quite
tax
your
way
out
of
it.
You
can't
quite
wait
for
it.
Wait
for
the
other
shoe
to
drop.
You
have
to
take
certain
actions
that
are
going
to
benefit
your
system,
your
businesses
and
your
economy
and
your
workers
in
that
regard
too.
K
So,
then,
how
are
you
looking
at
your
unemployment
program
to
do
just
that,
and
I
know
he's
not
president
anymore,
I
just
like
this
picture.
I
need
to
change
it
to
president
biden
at
some
point.
It's
a
little
bit
of
an
old
one,
but
it's
two
ways
to
look
at
it.
Generally,
people
are
going
to
tell
you
that.
There's
two
levers
to
pull
for
unemployment
policy
reforms
moving
forward,
you've
got
benefit,
reform
and
you've
got
program,
integrity
reform.
K
Two
sides
of
the
same
coin:
recontextualized
saying
it
as
helping
businesses
drive
and
protecting
your
car,
because
if
you
think
about
the
unemployment
insurance
program
as
a
car
that
you
guys
own
and
have
legitimate
oversight
authority
over
there's
two
ways,
you
approach
it.
Someone
else
is
driving
it.
Who
else
is
driving
it?
Your
business
community?
K
They
create
the
jobs
they
pay
for
the
system,
they're
the
ones
who
in
a
way,
use
the
system
right,
they're,
the
first
individuals
who,
when
a
claim
is
filed,
they
say
yes
or
no
to
oui
and-
and
it
goes
from
there,
government's
proper
role
is
to
help
businesses
drive
their
car
properly,
and
you
know,
ideally,
nobody
goes
off
a
cliff,
but
also
being
good
owner
of
the
car
and
being
a
good
steward
of
the
car
that
you
do
in
fact
own.
K
K
A
lot
of
states
are
finding
out
right
now
that
their
work
search,
regulations,
requirements
and
practices
just
aren't
up
to
snuff
and
it's
contributing
to,
unfortunately,
a
worker
shortage
across
the
country,
and
then
this
last
one
is
a
brand
new
one.
It's
kind
of
exciting
south
carolina
recently
launched
launched
a
pilot
program
where
you
know
it
sounds
very
simple
because
it
is
their
department.
Dew
matches
workers
to
open
businesses,
but
we'll
go
through
each
one
of
these
individually.
K
So,
let's
start
with
indexing,
because
that's
the
big
one,
that's
the
most
important
reform,
it's
the
highest
ticket,
it's
the
biggest
dollar
amount.
Where
did
it
come
from
or
how
does
it
work?
I
should
say
you
tie
the
number
of
weeks
of
benefits.
An
individual
can
collect
to
the
unemployment
rate
in
the
state,
the
idea
being
that
if
there
are
more
jobs,
less
time
is
needed
to
look
for
work
and
who
else
has
done
this?
K
Like
I've
mentioned
many
times
already
florida
georgia,
north
carolina,
they're
the
model
states,
they
were
the
first
three
to
jump
in.
They
did
this
in
response
to
the
great
recession,
because
their
trust
funds
were
drawn
down,
idaho
and
kansas
and
arizona.
Do
it
a
slightly
different
way,
but
two
other
states
I'd
like
to
draw
your
attention
to
tennessee
and
alabama
in
2018,
just
before
the
pandemic,
alabama
passed
indexing
to
model
themselves
after
florida,
georgia
and
north
carolina
and
tennessee
just
did
it
this
year.
K
In
fact,
I
can
recall
just
off
the
cuff
really
quickly
was
a
conversation
I
had
with
their
speaker,
sexton
and
what
he
wanted
out
of
the
unemployment
system,
or
what
I
should
say
is
what
his
main
goal
was
was
I
want
to
make
tennessee
as
economically
competitive
as
possible
so
that
we
can
attract
jobs
without
having
to
give
out
tax
credits,
tax
incentives,
tax
packages
right
we're
already
a
low
tax
state?
So
how
can
we
attract
more
businesses?
Well,
you
make
it
less.
K
You
make
it
less
costly
to
hire
more
workers,
so
people
are
going
to
hire
more
workers
or
move
more
jobs
into
your
state.
His
main
pitch
was:
how
can
I
get
the
next
amazon
distribution
center?
Well,
that's
one
way
to
do
it
is
to
make
it
more
affordable
to
hire
a
lot
of
workers,
but
let's
use
florida's
case
study
for
indexing,
and
let
me
show
you
why
this
worked
or
how
this
works
so
well
for
them.
K
If
we
rewind
back
to
2011,
florida
was
insolvent
just
coming
out
of
the
great
recession,
they
were
in
the
same
place
as
a
lot
of
states.
They
borrowed
money
from
the
federal
government.
They
were
not
doing
well,
they
needed
answers
2012.
They
passed
this
reform
and
you
look
from
2011
to
2018
seven
year
windows.
We
did
the
study
a
while
back
every
major
metric.
K
They
made
market
improvement
on
the
number
of
time
people
spent
on
the
system
was
cut
in
half
because
of
that
program,
costs
were
slashed
and
because
programs
lost
costs
were
slashed,
unemployment,
taxes
were
slashed
and,
at
the
same
time,
their
trust
fund
blew
up
in
a
good
way,
and
I
know
you're
looking
at
this
and
you're,
probably
thinking
okay
well,
naturally,
florida's
economy
recovered.
K
K
Now
you
might
be
asking
what
if
we
did
it
well,
we
we
made
that
we
researched
that
and
made
projections
for
every
state
that
doesn't
currently
index.
We
did
that
back
last
january,
so
these
numbers
are
a
little
bit
different
than
what
they
would
be
today
if
we
reran
the
numbers
I'll
get
right
to
brass
tax.
K
If
you
indexed
in
january
within
three
years,
your
trust
fund
would
be
up
567
million
dollars.
So
that's
basically
wiping
out
the
deficit
you're
in
now
and
at
the
same
time
you
would
be
able
to
afford
decreasing
your
unemployment
taxes
by
17
and
that's
because
individuals
will
be
spending
less
time
on
the
system.
K
It's
basically
the
like
I've
said
the
highest
impact
reform.
You
could
possibly
do
I'm
going
to
say
it
again,
you're
probably
going
to
get
tired
of
me
saying
it
and
you
that's
fine,
but
it's
very
important
that
this
is
the
one
thing
you
might
take
away
from
this,
but
now
that
we've
covered
that
we
move
on
to
work,
search
and
work.
Search,
of
course,
is
federal
law.
K
It's
basically
codified
as
to
be
eligible
for
unemployment,
you're
able
to
work
available
to
work
actively
seeking
work,
work
search
comes
from
the
actively
seeking
work,
part
of
federal
statute
and
as
an
example
here
I
just
gave
a
case
of
florida
and
they
require
people
to
look
for
to
make
five
job
contacts
a
week
here
in
kentucky
it's
a
little
different,
there's
sort
of
a
reasonableness
standard,
codified
in
state
statute,
interpreted
and
enforced
by
by
kcc
as
a
a
list
of
activities,
but
it
really
boils
down
to
a
bare
minimum
of
one
job
contact
a
week.
K
So
that's
an
important
thing
to
think
about
increasing
the
amount
of
job
searches
or
job
contacts
required
per
week
of
a
claimant,
but
also
on
the
agency's
end.
They
got
to
do
their
homework,
collecting
the
proof
of
that
work,
search
and
verifying.
It
is
paramount
because
there
are
a
lot
of
cases
we
just
found
out.
This
pandemic
showed
us
how
easy
it
is
to
get
past.
K
The
system,
if
people
aren't
being
active
watchdogs
representative
your
comments
about
having
good
tools,
but
if
the
people
don't
care
to
use
them,
what
good
are
they
that
absolutely
rings?
True,
we
find
a
lot
of
states
that
had
relatively
effective
systems,
but
the
people
with
the
keys
to
the
front
door
weren't
paying
attention
didn't
care,
so
their
fraud
blew
up
in
michigan.
K
That
was
a
nightmare
case,
ohio
other
states,
so
you
were
not
alone
in
that
regard
and,
lastly,
the
kind
of
activities
that
qualify
as
work
search,
it's
important
to
make
sure
that
the
only
things
that
count
are
verifiable
and
effective.
Now
everybody
needs
training
right
people
do
career
changes.
There
are
offices
dedicated
to
that.
K
That
should
absolutely
count,
but
I
think
an
ideal
situation
would
be
to
model
something
like
what
south
dakota
does.
They
have
a
very
short
list.
They
say
if
you're
not
working
with
our
office
directly
to
get
training,
retraining,
job
assistance,
interview,
assistance,
something
in
that.
Well,
then,
all
accounts
is
an
interview
and
an
application.
K
That's
basically
it,
and
there
are
certain
federal
programs.
People
can
qualify
for
too.
So,
in
short,
making
work
search
works
at
work.
It's
about
having
a
reasonable,
effective
standard
of
practices
that
are
going
to
work
and
then
making
sure
your
agency
follows
up
on
these,
so
that
people
aren't
just
pinky
swearing
that
they
looked
for
work
that
week
and
then
you
know
they
didn't
really.
K
Lastly,
in
terms
of
what
we've
been
talking
about
being
good
owners
of
the
car-
and
I
apologize
south
carolina's
kind
of
encroaching
on
some
of
my
texts
here-
south
carolina's
forced
referrals
process,
it's
a
brand
new
program
that
their
agency
came
up
with,
because
director
elsie
down
there
was
very
very
distraught
at
the
hesitancy
to
return
to
work,
even
though
the
state
had
fully
reopened.
K
Employers
were
looking
all
over
the
place.
There
were.
You
know
four
higher
states
in
every
four
higher
signs
in
every
window.
Stop
me
if
this
is
familiar,
so
they
came
up
with
this
program.
They
said
we
have
a
job
board
here.
Our
employers
participate
very
well.
We
have
a
list
of
people
who
want
to
find
work.
K
We
just
connect
them.
So
we
say
you
know.
John
smith.
You've
been
a
bartender
for
five
years.
Here
are
eight
restaurants
within
10
miles
of
you
that
are
looking
connect
them.
You're
gonna
have
a
phone
call
with
them
this
week
and
if
you
don't
well,
I
guess
that
means
you're
not
too
actively
seeking
work.
You
know
it's
harsh,
but
it's
fair.
In
fact.
K
I've
I've
used
that
line
harsh,
but
fair
on
this
specific
reform
in
a
number
of
states
and
the
response
I
usually
get
is
it
doesn't
sound
harsh
at
all:
it's
really
simple,
it's
effective
and
it
it
works
on
the
main
goal.
The
main
goal
is
getting
people
back
to
work,
and
sometimes
they
need
help.
This
is
help.
K
Then
we
talk
about
protecting
the
car,
and
this
is
the
program
integrity
section
right
just
going
to
be
a
lot,
it's
going
to
sound,
very
familiar
with
your
what
mr
harmon
was
talking
about,
but
first,
if
you,
if
you
like,
if
you
haven't
already
flipped
ahead
in
the
powerpoint
and
know
what
I'm
going
at,
I
want
you
to
imagine
something.
I
want
you
to
imagine
elon
musk
with
a
very
expensive
prototype
car
that
no
one's
ever
seen
before
it
costs
a
lot
of
money
all
right.
K
So
now
that
you're
imagining
it
you
might
have
already
flipped.
You
can
see
it
and
now
you
can
never
unsee
it
now.
Imagine
he
drives
up
to
the
airport
steps
out
of
his
car
kind
of
loud
loudly
shoots
shouts
to
no
one
in
particular:
hey
I'm
gonna!
Leave
this
here
for
six
months:
everybody
it
doesn't
have
low
jack.
K
I
didn't
set
the
alarm.
You
know,
I'm
not
even
really
sure
the
door
locks
work,
but
it's
okay,
because
I
didn't
lock
the
doors
anyway.
So
please
nobody
steal
my
car
guys.
Really
it's
an
expensive
car,
nobody
steal
it
what's
gonna
happen.
Well,
we
all
know,
what's
going
to
happen,
it's
an
opportunity
for
fraudsters
to
come
in
and
abuse
the
system.
Unfortunately,
I
use
the
cares
act
as
a
heading
because
it
was
a
brand
new
prototype
program.
There
were
not
sufficient
guidelines
put
into
place
and
so
on
you
know.
K
We
saw
high
profile
fraud
case
after
high
profile
fraud
case
prisoners,
the
nigerian
fraud
ring
scattered
canary.
There
was
an
nfl
football
player
who
was
busted
for
unemployment,
fraud,
new
york,
state
court
employees.
The
list
goes
on
and
on
and
on,
unfortunately,
a
lot
of
that
bled
into
normal
state
programs.
K
So
because
there
was
such
a
wide
opening
in
this
new
federal
program.
These
are
new
types
of
benefits
that
had
never
before
been
seen.
They
go
well.
It
wasn't
too
hard
to
build
that
system.
How
easy
would
be
to
go
after
this
system
and
new
vulnerabilities
that
had
never
been
considered
before
in
traditional
state
unemployment
were
suddenly
being
exploited
by
sophisticated
criminals?
K
It's
unfortunate,
so
what's
important
is
that
you
protect
that
car.
You
may
not
have
a
prototype
car
like
the
cares
act
or
the
rescue
act
now,
but
you
do
have
your
system,
and
so
that
manifests
in
a
few
ways
a
comprehensive
program,
integrity,
reform,
package,
reporting
job
offer
refusals
and
making
sure
that's
a
tool
that
is
widely
utilized
by
your
business
community
and
then
here's
the
last
one.
K
I
kind
of
snuck
in
here
that
isn't
exactly
unemployment,
but
it
meshes
well
with
it
just
having
cooperation
between
your
unemployment
and
your
welfare
agencies,
so
when
one
of
them
finds
out
that
someone's
gainfully
employed,
they
share
that
information
just
for
eligibility's
sake,
but
let's
start
with
the
program
integrity
package,
because
a
lot
of
this
is
going
to
be
familiar
with
familiar
to
you,
because
I
was
before
this
committee
a
few
weeks
ago.
Thanking
you
for
doing
this
work,
and
you
did.
You
were
a
national
leader
in
that
regard.
K
Weekly
cross
checks,
prison
records,
nasa's
integrity
data
hub
national
directory
of
new
hires,
setting
the
presumption
to
recover
improper
overpayments
so
that
it's
not
a
matter
of
discretion
and,
of
course,
filing
reports
to
the
legislature
to
make
sure
that
you
guys
are
continuing
your
active
and
legitimate
oversight
role.
It's
a
good
bill.
It
was
good
legislation,
a
bunch
of
states-
I
put
you
last
just
to
highlight,
but
a
bunch
of
states
followed
your
suit.
I
I
think
you
were
the
second
of
nine
states
that
passed
a
comprehensive
package
like
this.
K
So
that's
the
good
news.
The
even
better
news
is
there
are
some
new
things
federally
recommended
by
both
the
biden
and
trump
administration.
Just
like
that
bill
was
so.
This
is
non-controversial
nonpartisan.
In
fact,
if
we
go
back
up
legislation
that
looks
a
lot
like
what
you
passed
passed
unanimously
in
seven
states.
So
I
expect
these
new
similar
reforms
would
have
the
same
kind
of
easy
momentum,
but
they're
very
effective.
You
know
it's
a
reform
that
punches
above
its
weight,
so
things
like
you
know,
reviewing
suspicious
claims
automatically
sort
of
these
triggers.
K
K
Multiple
claims
that
are
sending
the
money
to
the
same
bank
account
it's
another
red
flag,
automatically
audit
that
claim
duplicate
foreign
ip
addresses
again,
that's
a
response,
basically
directly
to
the
kind
of
fraud
we
saw
that
exploded
during
cares
and
there's
a
few
other
ones.
You
know
dual
factor
authentication.
K
We
talked
about
the
data
breach
that
happened
here
during
the
pandemic,
something
like
that
I'll
have
a
more
comprehensive
list
for
you
guys
to
review
on
what
other
additions
you
could
make
to
this
legislation.
But
but
the
point
is:
there's
always
new
ways
to
improve
and
there's
always
new
ways
to
secure
the
front
door.
If
you
will
the
next
one
in
this
picture,
I
did
my
best
to
make
it
somewhat
readable.
This
might
look
familiar
to
you
if
you're
an
employer.
Maybe
it
looks
familiar
to
you.
K
This
is
the
form
that
you
can
use
to
report
a
job
offer
refusal,
and
this
is
something
that
was
a
very
common
problem
about
a
few
months
ago
and
to
extend
this
so
rather
than
it
being
a
case
where
a
business
is
forced
to
close
down
and
they
reopen
and
they
offer
the
job
back
to
a
worker
and
that
worker
refuses.
And
then
you
go
through
the
process,
and
you
know
you
adjudicate
the
claim.
Let's
say
it
wasn't
reasonable.
Let's
say
it
was
a
risk
of
their
health
and
safety.
K
There
are
a
number
of
states.
Considering
this,
I
think
it's
just
common
sense
and
the
infrastructure's
already
in
place
again
there's
a
lot
of
ways
that
a
system
is
exploitable,
and
this
is
just
one
of
them
and
then
the
last
one
like
I
said
this
was
something
that
came
out
of
kansas's
comprehensive
unemployment
reform
package
that
they
did
a
few
months
ago,
very
simple,
just
a
few
lines
in
statute
where
they
just
required
their
own.
This
should
be
oui.
I
was
on
vacation
last
week.
K
I
apologize
but
require
oui
to
report
to
the
welfare
agencies,
just
simple
data
sharing
for
eligibility's
sake,
and
I
expect
a
number
of
states
are
going
to
imitate
kansas
in
that
regard.
K
But
all
that
to
say
again,
like
I
said
in
in
my
opening,
it's
probably
cold
comfort-
to
think
that
at
this
point
you
guys
are
serving
as
a
model
for
what
other
states
should
be
doing.
K
But
I
I
have
to
say
it
is
encouraging
it's
unfortunate
past
18
months,
but
it
is
encouraging
that
the
work
you're
doing
the
progress
you're
making
like
I
said
it
may
not
look
great
right
now,
but
you
know
these
seeds
will
bear
fruit.
So
I'm
happy
to
take
any
questions.
I
Again,
well
not
so
much,
I
guess
more
of
a
comment
than
a
question.
Thank
you
for
your
presentation
day
as
someone
who
actually
has
employees
and
meets
payroll,
I'm
glad
again,
a
lot
of
people
understand
what
uir
is
a
lot
of
people
say
it's
my
money.
Well,
no,
it's!
Actually
it
is
your
money,
but
it's
not
your
money.
I
pay
it
in.
I
have
to
pay
that
now.
A
lot
of
people
understand
it.
It
is
for
laid
off
not
for
quitters,
not
people
walk
off
the
job.
I
Knowing
that's
going
to
affect
your
bottom
line,
guess
which
state
wins
on
that
again
and
we
hear
about
our
economy
we're
back
in
kentucky
right
now.
The
problem
is
when
you
were
here
and
you
went
to
there,
but
when
you
only
come
back
to
here,
I
understand
there's
still
like
92
92
000
jobs
have
not
been
replenished
from
pre-covered
again,
we
have
to
make
sure
we
use
this
as
a
tool.
I
And
again,
I
appreciate
the
fact
you
talked
about
work
requirements,
I'm
glad
we
put
that
back
in
there,
I'm
a
little
disappointed
in
the
fact
that
they're
saying
you
need
to
report
when
someone
doesn't
get
a
job,
and
that's
been
my
complaint
from
word
go
is
how
do
I
report
a
dial
tone
and
when
someone
name,
forgive
me
philip
pratt,
said
I'm
going
to
short
for
an
interview
on
tuesday
and
phil
pratt
doesn't
show
up.
How
do
I
report
him?
I
I
think
there
need
to
be
something
that
when
they
file
for
unemployment
and
say
I
I
feel
proud
I've
applied
for
a
job
at
xyz
that
they
can
go
back
to
that
company
very
easily
phone
call,
email
whatever
and
say:
did
they
show
up?
Did
they
apply
for
it?
And
why
not
again
the
problem
is
you
have
to
follow
up
with
it
or
there
will
be
abuse
in
the
system,
but
I
do.
K
K
K
That
individuals
are,
you
know
they
have
help
when
they
need
it,
and
you
know
forgive
me
for
being
crass
before
the
committee,
but
they
have
a
kick
in
the
rear
end
when
they
need
it
too,
because
sometimes
it's
a
little
column,
a
sometimes
a
little
column
b,
but
it
but
talking
about
specifically
a
situation
like
you
mentioned
where
you
know
john
smith
applies
to
work
for
wherever
you
know
doesn't
show
up
to
the
interview.
How
do
you
follow
up
on
that?
K
A
system
like
the
referral
process
that
south
carolina
is
building
up
right
now
is
tailor-made
for
something
like
that,
because
you
know
it
could
also
be
the
case
where
john
smith
just
forgot.
What
time
the
interview
was
right.
So
then
you
know
the
unemployment
agency
goes
up
to
the
business,
says:
hey
what's
going
on
there
and
they
go
oh
well,
you
know,
and
it's
it's
solution-oriented,
it's
re-employment-oriented,
rather
than
simply
punitive.
A
I
want
to
ask
you
a
question
about
the
go
back
to
the
slide
part
about
florida,
indexing
sure
2011.
They
were
insolvent
2012
they
passed
indexing.
Was
that
part
of
an
overall
broad
reform,
or
was
it
and
how
easy
did
was
florida
able
to
do
that?
Was
it
a
bipartisan
effort?
Did
the
governor
lead
on
it?
Was
it
the
state
legislature,
so.
K
Off
the
top
of
my
head,
the
politics
surrounding
the
legislation-
I
am
not
completely
familiar
with,
but
you
know
what
that's
an
important
thing
for
me
to
suss
out
and
get
for.
You
sort
of
you
know,
get
the
actual
bill
and
all
the
discounts
and
and
the
testimony
I
can
tell
you
that
it
was
strongly
supported
by
the
business
community.
I
can
tell
you
that
florida
is
a
state
that
takes
being
competitive
extremely
seriously,
to
the
point
where,
well
I
mean
we
can
run
down
the
line,
all
the
things
they
do.
K
So
I
don't
have
an
exact
answer
on
the
circumstances
of
that
bill,
but
we
can
use
tennessee,
which
I'm
pretty
familiar
with
what
they
did
last
year
or
actually
this
year
it
was
a.
It
was
a
bill
that
there
were
it
needed
a
bit
of
shepherding,
but
it
was
again
when
it
came
to
the
commitment
of
that
legislature
where
they
said
we
want
to
compete
with
florida
in
tennessee.
They
have
a
saying
for
people
who
move
down
to
florida,
but
then
come
halfway
back
and
call
them
half
backers
or
something
like
that.
K
They
said
we
don't
want
that
to
happen
anymore.
We
just
want
people
to
move
directly
to
tennessee,
which
is
what
they
were.
You
know
they
had
some
very
competitive
unemployment
taxes
they
wanted
the
most.
I
was
surprised
that
how
easily
it
moved
through
their
legislature,
because
it's
a
huge
reform
and
big
reforms
take
a
lot
of
work,
but
they
put
the
work
in
and
and
they're
going
to
start
reaping
the
benefits
of
it
pretty
soon.
A
K
I'll
get
you
the
exact
details,
but
if
I
can
sort
of
muse
from
the
top
of
my
head,
as
I
recall
so,
tennessee
was
one
session
the
speaker
down.
There
had
heard
heard
about
the
reform
and
then
that
same
legislative
session
they
ran
it
through
alabama.
They
worked
on
that
for
a
couple
of
years.
K
A
A
All
right
that
concludes
the
business
before
the
task
force.
Today
I
would
remind
the
members
of
the
task
force.
Our
next
meeting
will
be
september.
The
17th
we'll
be
meeting
at
10
a.m.
Co-Chair
nemas
will
be
chairing
that
meeting.
So
I
encourage
everyone
to
come
out
for
that.
If
we
have
no
other
questions,
do
I
have
a
motion
to
adjourn.