Kubernetes Steering Committee, 10 Oct 2018

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00:32:47 eMcdlgCr9Dnkt66puqFgXg==: sorry folks, my battery failed before Sarah's apparently'
00:32:52 Michelle Noorali: No worries
00:34:25 Michelle Noorali: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1i_8oM1KlmXo90zIIgNTdOg-M6xesTggFLnTkgmscMlI/edit#gid=0
00:34:26 Dims: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1i_8oM1KlmXo90zIIgNTdOg-M6xesTggFLnTkgmscMlI/edit#gid=0
00:40:34 Dims: https://mail-archives.apache.org/mod_mbox/www-legal-discuss/201810.mbox/browser
00:44:37 Timothy St. Clair: Lawyer FIGHT!
00:44:53 Michelle Noorali: Lol +1

A

B

C

I'm Michelle, what's.

B

Going on, oh, it's so nice to meet you myself.

A

Welcome. Thank you. Oh we.

B

Met before right, yeah, okay, I, remember a long time ago, though yeah what's up Sarah.

D

Hello from node plus jeaious interactive, oh.

B

Nice I'm in the Microsoft San Francisco office are.

D

You in San Francisco no I'm in Vancouver.

B

Yeah, it's so nice to be in an office, they have snacks and coffee. This is crazy and lunch is people are so spoiled. I have to make my own food I want.

E

To look like that, don't talk to me because it's only the Microsoft and Cisco office that has snacks really not yeah, you know I have to I, have to pay for my food up here. Yeah.

F

B

Right, yeah, yeah, I, don't know you have to go to an office and you didn't good, you don't get free food and snacks. I, don't know. I, don't know, can't live that life.

B

Alright people need to come here soon, alright ping, everyone.

C

G

Think there are four people who said they can't make it today. Oh.

B

Really, okay, I'm.

G

H

Got quorum now: okay,.

D

Quorum as long as my battery holds out I'm running on a too low a wattage charger and I've got 10%, so I'm, hoping that I will not draw faster than I'm replenishing, okay, you're using zoomin slack there right. Yes, okay,.

B

But, okay, that's good! Well! If it was slack I'd be like see in three minutes: yeah, okay,.

D

B

D

Chrome, that's the problem being kids'll hand of Gaga when you have 50 odd tabs open. Oh my gosh, you are one of those. Actually 50 is a good day.

B

All right who wants to be both in is it me because I'm talking but I'll take notes, okay, cool. It sounds good. Oh wait.

F

No Tim's already take.

B

F

No, if you want to do it, no.

F

H

Really I was already signed myself up for note-taker, because people were jadon. So all.

D

Right, do you want to take over if I lose power? That's.

B

Okay, all right, so, let's just uh let's go ahead and start Oh. Actually, let's give Tim's like the rundown I, don't know. If anybody else has we do these meetings every two weeks. Bosun is just the person who leads the meeting and kind of takes us through the agenda and our project board, and then we have a note-taker just like put your name down under the attendees list.

B

So you know we know you're here and then, if feel free to add topics as you see fit, there's a steering private mailing list and a steering mailing list. That's public I! Think that's the basics! That's those are the basics, okay, cool, so we can just run through the project board. I guess after we talk about the election.

B

Okay Joe feel free to hit record. Now he cuts it off, though, or cuts it.

C

B

It right or whatever, whatever um hey everyone, it's Wednesday, October 10th and you are at the steering committee meeting today we're going to talk about post election next steps and then go through a project board to see where we are and get status updates.

B

So the election is ended and we need to figure out if there's any next steps for us. Does anybody have any thoughts.

H

The election people filed some issues and we should probably put them on the project board for us to address I think there was a couple I, don't recall, all of them that were filed, so we probably should assign a subgroup of people to take a look at the feedback from the Elections Committee and try to make sure that we address that for the next next cycle. Okay,.

D

Everyone who's not here and they're in charge of it. It's.

H

Perfect I love.

D

That idea, no seriously.

B

I

Plus one that one's there.

B

Okay, so we need someone to take the agenda item of filing filing the issues to be added to the project board from the election committee.

B

Do we want to just volunteer someone who's on here, yeah.

D

I can, since Jace has been helping us with the project board. I will have him do that. Okay sounds good, all right cool, let's just go through the project, worried I'm, sure.

B

My screen in a second I actually.

E

Took another medic not at Mr electric yeah, so turnout was 50% dish. I. Remember correctly, like I, think in the steering committee we should decide like what's our role like it deals that feels low to me.

B

It's not higher than the American population by a lot yeah.

E

But the thing is that this is something right like Washington State has a Pope by day, all over 780 so like this is like a link, so they feel, like very I, mean I, don't know, I, guess the medication.

E

What is our description, and should we I mean, should we consider having a role and it's that's.

H

I think a part of this has to do with awareness and publication. We basically hurried up, and we said: oh, we got elections now we gotta start everything now and we didn't last time there was a lot of notification because usually the best way to get broader participation and anything in this community is to have multiple PSAs across multiple channels that exist. You know Paris.

D

Actually gave a pretty solid run down and it looked like they were nigh, unto spamming. All the channels.

I

And the way look at this Brendan was like you: either increased participation or the percentage of participation by decreasing the amount of people we get the right to vote, to which I don't know. If we want to really entertain I actually, don't know if we have any ability to know like those that voted, how they've mapped back to the dev stats threshold of it so to even know, if it's a good, meaningful signal or not but like I I, don't know, I feel like a percentage is not necessarily the right way of tackling this.

G

If you just see percentages, it's higher than typical would turnout and both the Apache foundation as well as the OpenStack ones. So it's definitely yeah are on the higher side. At this point, I, don't know how many people in this election but I, think this election. We have a higher threshold I.

E

Don't necessarily disagree with her, in fact, I think that's a question to ask ourselves like. Maybe this is a sign we should and I make the criteria. That's I am.

E

B

Decent, we could totally do some analysis, because I thought that idea of like mapping the voters back to dev stats is really interesting. Just to see like what actually get an idea of like what actually happened, because you may have some really active people in the community who don't really care about voting, and that should be okay. I think.

G

My only worry is that the mapping that we had for the github email, ID and the would setting out I think that might not have worked so but I I, don't know whether that's true or not. There.

D

Was an analysis in Paris's message that suggested there were 30 emails that bounced they sought 30 36, something like that. They sought alternative dresses and were able to deliver on 20-ish of those. So we actually got really good coverage. Now, whether or not that's your primary email address or a capture email address, what is a whole different question, but we got bounces from a small number and then we were able to remedy most of that number. Oh I'm glad I read Paris's email.

B

You know what I totally forgot didn't you want to introduce yourself.

G

Hi, my name is James. My longer name is dominum chin us I'm from India I came to us a long time ago now, I live in Boston work for Wally earlier I used to work for IBM, some startup and lots of employers over a period of time, so yeah nice to be here, I've been doing open-source for working with open source for a long time, Apache, Software, Foundation, first and then OpenStack foundation, and now here so being around the block a little bit.

G

So you will constantly hear me say: okay, this is how somebody else does this. So that's.

B

So awesome we really need that. Thank you. Welcome thank.

A

B

Yeah so it sounds like we should maybe bubble up some. These concerns to the election committee.

D

Yeah, we should probably also read over the election summary clip more closely that parasite, because I think some of our questions are answered in there before we go out back to ask okay, okay,.

B

Cool, let's go but.

E

I also think that, as a meta point like we need to have a goal. Yes, the steering committee needs to decide what the goal is. So it's very down be an office, but we figure out what we're trying to answer with yeah.

G

So weighted Pattison, this analysis ah I think.

D

It was steering committee or steering.

E

Private moments, during fact, it.

D

Might have been steering private, okay.

A

Yeah yeah somebody please forward it to me, I, don't really! Let me find it.

A

Election results string for the election results.

A

That's the short version I.

D

Will find it thank.

B

D

Seeing a very short answer there so are.

B

You on the steering private mailing list, yet okay, great.

B

Brennan I still don't understand why we need a goal like what's the downside of not having a goal, I think.

E

We should understand what we're I mean: I guess what I'm saying is like how do we know if this election was successful, yeah.

B

E

Like so so, my point is like if it were 10% China out, I think they would say well actually. Maybe this election is not legit, because 90% of community in I think you can say hey. You know what it's legitimate, but you know objectively, I think that we either are you either we send ballots out to a lot of people who aren't interested, in which case you should just just like our criteria. I, like Eric, said or our get out. The vote wasn't good enough.

E

You should do more communication, as Kim said, although sarah said we just we almost and people so like, but I think that's the medic. That's the medic question effectively. That I would like this to answer it's like. Do. We think that the election was successful and what could be improved and I and I think that this election committee is going to have some process suggestions that I think that we have more obligation to help us are the meta. Like is the election serving our community question yeah.

B

I think I'm, okay, yeah I, think I'm, just gonna have to take some time that kind of sit on that and think about it. Just because if the sauce and other communities are lower and our thoughts are higher, then I think more about you know how high high do we want anything.

G

B

G

One of the things that we've been thinking about on the opens oxide was are, we sewing all the geographies properly? Are we getting votes from people in different geographies like, and we try to do a get out the vote in the you know China and Asia this time. So how do we make sure that people from there feel that they are part of the community and not just not not American electorate?

G

You know, there's a bunch of things that we need to do around that, but then elections is just one of those things that we need to take care of. Just the fact that we have the call at this time of the day, rules out so much of the geography right, sir. So.

D

We actually there's a known issue marked in Paris's email, which is folks in Asia, didn't understand, / didn't wasn't able to translate the corn Condorcet voting, so they engaged the cloud native computing foundation to get a translator and sent a small bit of translated text to the parties, never heard another issue. So we did. We did go over and above in that, but what the spread was no idea right.

G

Yeah I was the one who pinged yeah.

H

G

And I sent it over to the people who came to me and said that, and you know, apparently it was okay, after that they were able to figure that out good.

D

So for the nyan to spamming, now that I'm reading this, where we advertised and communicated six announcements and Thursday community meetings more than three github issues and pull requests in case during Inc, a community three messages to ke dev slack within info to emails, to ke dev to discuss, skate, Co threads. One email reminder to personal voting emails, one technically to with hiccup ballots sent from service to personal voting emails and tweets from kubernetes io and multiple contributor accounts.

D

I've also forwarded this whole thread just so, we have the record into steering private now that we have dims on the dims on the the board and acquaintance has moved off.

D

A

B

Cool um Brennan other than sitting on this, and talking about this at the next meeting, is there anything else that you want to you want to do or on this topic well,.

E

I think that's great I really just wanted to raise it as a think.

B

E

I, don't have any answers, I just think that we should we held it to ourselves into the community to make sure you know I guess it's. Some of the whole point of the election is to make sure that we are thought of as the legitimate leaders of the community and so.

A

E

Have to ask them that a question that like does that does the election process yeah.

B

That's fair: you want to add that to the project board, so we can keep track of that conversation.

B

E

Sorry I didn't realize that was to make sure I will do that. Okay,.

B

Okay, so the other question I had was like how do we onboard new members? We could have like a little dock on how to do that like to introduce himself at the first meeting. We should have got that, like probably at the beginning, and then we should probably assign one person from staring to like you know, get everybody on the get the new people on mailing lists and maybe walk them through like how our process works like before the first meeting.

B

Are there any other things that I'm missing y'all bootstrapping people probably have an idea about this more than more than me,.

G

I didn't sent an email to steering private saying that he would write up what he did for me that kind of what before the meeting started. But then next cycle we are going to have the additional problem where a lot more people are peeling off and fewer people coming in yeah.

B

G

That that's the worry there, maybe.

B

We should make sure that our processes are well documented, yeah we're having okay, so also everybody I, think everybody responded on the meeting or doodle for December's, meaning is Friday. Friday seems to be good with everyone. So are we good with having a one day thing, or do we still want to do like a two day event for us.

D

What about Thursday night dinner and conversations and then Friday to the broader meeting yeah.

B

That sounds good to me so.

D

B

I think some people couldn't make that time. Yeah I mean you're gonna, say something sounds.

H

B

We can do that all right, let's go through the board.

G

Michele, were you gonna shave, your board shave, the screen.

B

B

Can I racing my screen? Okay, yes,.

D

B

Do we have any updates on the documentation, sunset procedure for cigs and working groups item.

H

Before we get to that there was a blocked item in the addressed.

B

H

We were supposed to do like some type of blog to finish off the elections. Oh I.

A

E

Waiting at Brendan- this is Brendan I. Think that's done. I think we said on the thread that we would. We were happy to delegate to the election committee and I saw note from Paris saying it was queued and I I think it's going out on Friday okay, so we just close.

H

Associates up so.

E

I think that can be closed. Yeah I, don't think.

H

That that's blocked.

E

I think we there was a there's a thread on kubernetes, either steering or private I can't remember which one, but that should be done. Mish.

G

Brendan, I think it's going out on monday, paris sent on one more email saying that friday might be too late. I mean.

E

But it's cured in its I mean it's written and cued and it's yeah.

B

Okay, cool so yeah back to this sunset procedures for cigs and working groups. What was going on here.

H

So I haven't bit of background. There is yeah I. Think cluster ops was the precursor for this, where they were a cig and they kind of disbanded. Oh, they didn't necessarily own code, but one of the things that we identified is that if they did own code, we don't have a process by which we would you know, attic the code or their vest involvement or what happens right? What happens if a sig disbands but there's still code right, so we actually have a process or procedure to deal with. That is.

B

There already discussion going on on that.

H

mmm Not really, it was worth more of a meta topic like things that didn't own code. It was easy to sunset them. We just kind of put an arbitrary criteria in place. It's pretty arbitrary, but we should probably formalize it yeah.

C

H

It means to disband, because eventually, over time, there's probably should be an amalgamation of cigs in disbanding so like as as like cloud provider, for example, if they, if there's ever this ownership structure change for cloud providers, we should probably enumerate what it means to get subsumed either by a larger sig or to you know, disband this. This thing entirely so.

D

There's a note in the issue that Paris and Georgia are going to take this up post-election so I think it's just a matter of pinging them again to get some dogs, okay,.

B

um I can ping them about this one. We all put an action item for me on the docks.

H

Should we move that to blocked waiting, because it's not really in progress, yeah.

B

That's a good idea.

B

Okay, formalized sub-projects.

B

See do we not have a document already on that.

C

H

Think there was like meta things about ownership of sub-project and rolls and bah-bah I have to read through this entirety right the link, I, don't know: okay,.

B

It seems like the people that are working on that aren't here today, so you can just have them update us next time. umm Oh yeah documents, how working groups should be formed. This is a big one from last time. I didn't even know if that got merged. Oh yeah hey, so we were supposed to edit what existed or the pull request that was in flight. Let me go find that so then, whatever happened after Brennan, did you get your edits in.

E

So the last time I looked and I haven't I have to admit I haven't lived in, like you know, three or four days the comments hadn't been addressed, but I can go and double-check shells and rocks the one who owned it, but I'll double check again today to see if they were address. Okay,.

B

Sounds good! Alright, let's go through this.

B

Okay, so I think that was the only thing right like that. You you had your comment stuff when once you undress them, then we'll be good to go there codify steering committee liaisons with Aaron on this one.

B

It looks like he was.

B

I, don't have an update on this. Does anybody else have an update, I.

H

Think this is just the Charter.

B

Yeah this was for the Charter and then were we going to use this list as the formalist to be the liaisons for the sig itself long term as well. I, don't remember coming to that conclusion. No.

G

Only update I have in this as Aaron replaced Quinton's name with my name yeah.

G

B

Okay, gotcha, okay, so we need to figure out what we're actually going to do on that and it seems like Aaron's on that issue. So we can ask him.

H

There's a meta problem of like we only have a certain number of charters in place and we were supposed to try and get these charters in place going forwards. I, don't know what kind of enforcement we wanted to do. Yeah.

B

H

E

H

Doesn't really talk about, like you know, I know we sent out the email a long time ago and some people have submitted them and most of the ones have been merged that we've reviewed and gone back and forth with, but there's a bunch of ones that haven't even submitted a PR right, yeah.

B

I think we were holding back for some reason and I think maybe it was. We were just busy with the election or something so maybe we should push for like all charters to be in and reviewed by the end of the year. I was like a deadline.

H

But how the question that we always have is like what what carrots and what sticks do we have to incentivize that one forcement do we have to you know prevent people or you know what to make sure that people can't do get it in or there's some type of consequence that we can enforce afterwards cancels AM accounts I, don't.

I

Know maybe some of the things that are missing charters are some of her most coding, prolific SIG's, so it seems like we could. Maybe we just attend one of those Sigma names and say: hey guys, you know, please do, does it doesn't take that long, but just let me assure it seems like a few. They stand out as being not an issue of like lack of people. Who could do this.

B

Yeah I think it's just lack of awareness because it's been a while, since we reminded them well,.

H

It's an incentive like it's the Karen stick problem right like there's no incentive for them to spend the time to do it when they've already have ten thousand other things to do so. It gets dropped off the list, but that's stuff like that will always occur unless it becomes a priority for some other reason, which is usually the stick right. So unless we have some incentive structure or some motivation and enforcement I, don't know how you how you make, how you force things to create their own Turner's right, Tim,.

G

I remember a lot. There was some discussion about if there are incoming odd requests like a new repository. Maybe we hold off on that for six, that don't have a charter yet so that will force them. Yes,.

H

G

That that was the one of.

H

The appearance.

G

Yeah, depending on how you look at it, I.

B

Yeah, but for the people who don't need new repos well with you right.

G

B

That's a good one though other than I don't know. Freezing zoom account seems really intense, blocking merge, privileges, I, don't know uh it all just seems really intense I don't want to be like a like the mean group of people or anything but, like you know, forces you to do something, but we do need these done so I, don't know I.

I

Think whatever penalty needs to be rational is what the actual Charter in merge means right like so you don't want to penalty that is ridiculous, relative to the bag, the trigger itself, so I think the you can't expand, expand potential scope of what your sake thinks it had Cornell on getting a new repo like that's something you could evaluate, and that would maybe drop a list down and then maybe the mirror also.

B

Can't understand.

H

It would get other people to handle differently. We need an enforcement of that, though, so like. We need to talk to those who manage the K, it's or group to say that any any new repo requests that don't have a charter filed for a sig get we will get denied until you know further day.

H

We need to have some type of enforcement action to make that occur. Otherwise, it's just you know. We say this in a group and there's no there's no consequence. I.

I

Don't know I feel like before we do that we should just reach out to each leg. That's missing again and join us feel, like hey, I, think that's where we get a heavy hand on it.

H

No I totally agree. I think that's the right way to deal with it, but we do at some point people will people will ignore us until until they can't right. That's just the nature of student governance. How.

G

About we tie it to release cadence and say that before 1:13 ships, we need to line these things up that K. That will be better than a date.

H

There were two things was like no features to GA. There was another one right like yeah, you can't you can GA a feature or or the or the new repos yeah.

B

That's good is that already in place cuz, that's a really good one.

H

No we'd have to talk with folks like the release team. Okay, the release team, who doesn't have a charter in place.

D

I

Or maybe maybe you can't open a feature issue or add it to a milestone until you have that, but frankly, I think I feel like a lot of these. If we just reach out again, we can get a better response.

I

Yeah, hi agony.

G

D

Yeah I would like to reach out.

B

Maybe each of the people that are next to like that liaison we have that liaison spreadsheet. So if your name is next to a charter, I just go through some time sometime before the end of this week. All of us should go through that spreadsheet. If we have four assigned to a sig that doesn't already have a charter reach out to them, and then you know you're you're you're responsible for for your own SIG's and then in the meantime, you can also create a list of things in case that doesn't pan out.

B

We've already talked through some ideas, so we can start making a list around that I've.

D

Got a nice little list of carrots versus sticks, perfect.

B

D

Anybody have the link to the spreadsheet of charters, yeah.

B

D

Me engage your time. Thank you. Just drop it on to the I.

B

Can track down to that doctor.

B

It sounds also like a lot of the stuff that we've just had in flight has kind of been either completed or we're kind of further along. So maybe we should do that exercise, maybe like next time of splitting up into those subgroups again and and picking what chunks of work we want to do. I know some of my items have rolling off that so I'm just going through this list, it seems apparent that we've kind of gotten a good ways. Three, oh yeah,.

G

Plus, we need to look at the PR still right and merge them.

B

G

If the primary liaison responsible for following up the on the PR and make sure it merges yeah.

B

Yeah each each like, if your, if your primary and secondary, we need you to review the pull request and LG TM it, and then it gets merged. Okay, I.

I

Think the laugh I think I had sick, instrumentation, sick scheduling where the ones I was chasing down and then both of those have now merged. So if we want to rebalance like I'm open to picking up one of these extra SIG's I was looking at the Charter matter issue and maybe I'm missing the spreadsheet. But that's the woman I've been tracking before oh yeah.

B

I think we were supposed to be using the meta issue, but that information was being taken from the spreadsheet anyway. So there were two sources of truth: sort of and yeah.

I

I've been updating the meta issue as they went in so I'm more than happy to pick up some ones here. I guess I, don't know them as if you just took everything that was Clinton on how we rotated assignment or not. But if there's no objection I can go through and help be.

G

A nag mark absolutely dinner. Thank you. Yeah just feel free to pick up which or.

B

Did you say nag baat? Yes, yes, I really.

H

B

H

Basically, what we were describing I think given in absence of an actual you know it might be worthwhile in excess of, like you know, somebody actually making sure that they've have their the primary liaison. So just if you're gonna add yourself, maybe you add yourself to the armchair section and then poke the person who's, the primary liaison to see if, like, if they've done anything if they've reached out yeah.

B

That's a that's a really good idea, I'm good with that, so cool I'll, add myself! So a few extras you.

B

Okay, so the like: that's the charts meta issue, which is the next item on the on the project. Mmm-Hmm board sounds like we kind of got through that, ordered it okay great. So then, the last item that we have in progress is ensure all Cabernets repos follow the same contributing structure and I'm. Not on that one is. Does anybody else have contacts on that I.

D

Chris Anna chick opened it. It says some cnc of members of higher maintenance, legal departments or they require a bit more documentation and repose regarding contributing criteria. For example, there's a kubernetes contributor guide that mandates that the CN CF c la be signed, but it's and it seems to apply to all code but has a big disclaimer at the top, which makes some legal departments wary. Some of the repos have contributing md files with clear processes, which is good. Others point to the contributor guide, which is okay, but many others have no such file.

D

Can we ensure every proper kubernetes project has a contributing done, md with terms clearly spelled out and brendan nope sorry, Brandon and Erin are assigned to this at the moment. Okay,.

B

Cool and then just like, went through that thread, it seems like they're, pretty active on it and there's like a bunch of contributing MD talks that have been added, so it is in progress very mention progress as advertised yeah. So so we need to rebalance like out like us as a steering committee and like pick up some new items and figure out what chunks of work to prioritize next. Oh my gosh I sound like a PM, oh, so how do we want to do that like? What do we want to?

B

What do we think is like the next big thing that we want to pick up.

D

So I have an open item that I just want to put on our agenda for for a future meeting, because there continue to be discussions of around DCO versus CLA and the Google lawyers are very opposed to DCO and they have really good reasons. Namely there is no case law that says the DCO actually works, and some of this is grinding its way through european courts right now, but there is no ruling yet so I would love to bring some one of the Google lawyers.

D

His name is Max sills to join us talk for 15 or 20 minutes, or maybe less answer questions and get a good understanding of why we are so stridently in favor of the clas and try to bring consensus to this, because because I would like to be able to shut it down in the community before it rises to a greater fervor. That said, we also have work being done inside the Linux Foundation by their new head of platforms to make an improved, CLE experience.

D

So this should take away some of the pain that we're experiencing and they were going to have a proof-of-concept ready at the end of this week. So I would love to take this DC over to CL a discussion and move it to in progress and start. It started as our next committee meeting and do that.

G

Sarah pasted the link on the chat, I, don't know.

C

G

Legal discuss mailing list in ASF, yes, the same same discussion there about is CCL a ICL, a really effective. Is it actually does it actually work? Okay and and part of the thing there is like any officer in a company can bind the whole company know with the CLA, but then what does es have actually have to do? Yes. F right now says: okay, you are giving me a paperwork. I'm gonna, keep it I'm gonna file it, and if you ask for me again, I'll give it to you. That's all they do.

G

They don't do anything so.

I

G

And I feel a the other. The problem is every jurisdiction, it's totally different. So you know that's what the discussion is going on about the efficacy of the CCL over and I CLA, and if it actually, you know if the companies it's the perception of the company versus the actual stuff that is happening on the foundation side.

G

You know we have to reconcile that if it actually is effective in what it is advertised to do and I know that have the Google for lawyers talk to say the IBM folks who who started the CCL a stuffs in Apache or mark Radcliffe, for example. I am.

D

Sure that they have talked to a number of them now, they're gonna convince.

G

Us now right: okay,.

D

This is this is the this is the point like that this was a sticking point when creating the crouppen and what you're creating this cloud native computing foundation. Like google actually said. No, if we move to a DC, oh, we will not put super Nettie's in this, so it was. It is a big enough deal that the google lawyers are very very opposed to it. So I want us to figure out those reasons. Go through other go through other prior art.

D

That I've already sent the apache link off to the lawyer that I'm going to invite to talk to us, and then we can have a really interesting discussion, I think. But but the point that he keeps coming back to you is: there is legal precedence and case law around CLA is in CC LA, and there is none with D Co, which means until somebody else figures this out. We don't want to play with it.

G

D

Yeah I mean that's the super nutshell of it and and he'll talk about the rest of it. So I will schedule that up for next time, if it no one has any concerns about that I. Just.

G

Want a wife's which is different from the please.

D

Please do we can I mean.

B

G

B

It should be the Linux Foundation right like it should be the lawyers that work with the scenes. Yes, so should we also have them on the same absolutely.

D

Do that at all, they are the ones who are having to litigate this around Linux in Europe right now, so they have to be saying that this is viable. Otherwise they are risking Linux. So so I don't know that that's an unbiased yeah, it's an unbiased view on it right.

G

But then let me flip it around why I asked for the DCO was first of all right now we are at a phase where there is a lot of people who want to contribute to given a test, but then, at a certain point it's going to start going flatter right.

G

Oh, it's gonna go down the curve, so we need to start encouraging driver contributions where they are not coming from a structured team, so they don't have people who they can ping and get their PR and just in time for the release and last week before this. Is that so they don't have those kinds of stuff, and there are instances about PRS and issues dying on the wine, because you know they're not from a structure team.

G

So I was mostly interested in trying to see if how much of it is happening right now and if the DCO will help not per se the DCO problem itself. But how much contributions are we leaving?

G

You know on the floor versus if we figured out a way to encourage those kinds of people to work with us so.

D

I think that ends of being a meta conversation of do we want drive-by contributors as well. Yes,.

G

Exactly right, that was the motivation for the question right.

D

And- and you just tripped into a a point that Google has a very hard line on yeah got it okay, so then it sounds like do we want to have the meta conversation before we have the lawyer conversation like do we want drive-by contributors and how would we improve the likelihood of that? One of the things that I hope we'll be doing is changing the workflow with a C CLA and see CLA through the Linux Foundation and to make that easier, because, as an individual, you can be like checkbox.

D

Yes, I can do that something, but it should not be as messed up as it is.

D

So do we want to have the meta conversation? Do we want to have the lawyer conversation I, don't have lawyer conversation because I want to be like informed.

B

D

B

D

B

I will schedule.

D

It up for the 24th okay.

B

D

Then we can have the medic on verse. Asian we can be informed, doesn't have the meta conversation and as.

B

I understand it, you can have the DCO and the CLA, so I would really love to ask the lawyer question about that questions, not that it's sort of the belt and suspenders but sure, okay and and we should definitely get the other. We I mean having the conversation with this lawyer- is Google or makes sense, but we are part of the CMC F. We should absolutely get their perspective to from their lawyer. Even if it's not biased I mean like. If we're a part of that foundation, we should definitely I do that. So.

D

So that said, the the choice is the project's choice: okay, yeah so like I've already made this I've already had this conversation with the CAF a couple of times, and it is a project level choice whether you have LA or the DC. Oh, okay.

D

Okay, do you want me to try and pull a lawyer and set up the true full-blown lawyer fight that Timothy wants? It could be like.

G

H

Pop some popcorn.

B

Microsoft snacks.

E

Microsoft's OSS legal to see if we have an opinion here, we.

B

Do I've talked to them and yeah we do and that's your opinion. They don't like to see how they don't like the DCO at all yeah. Okay, they have other reasons too so you'll be having there them as well. We.

D

Could yet would you want to bring in the Microsoft lawyers too.

B

I mean there's a lot of lawyers. We should just did there, maybe the Google on the CNC F and then just like loop, our our legal people, in on the conversation in case they have something to add, like okay,.

D

All right there they're.

B

Gonna join zero.

D

Chance that with when, once we get one set of lawyers and that there will be a conversation where others have to have lawyers if they participate in the conversation.

B

Yeah you're right, so this is more of a presentation right on the sort of the pros and cons and not so much a gettin advice. I.

E

Think I would be a yes presentation on their perspective or we can choose all your up. That's.

B

True, then, we're setting precedent, though, that.

B

D

Is exactly why legal committees exist to come back and say because you you, everybody shows up paired with their favorite lawyer and you go and then I sit on the legal committee for the CN CF I said on the legal committee for the blend explanations. This is how these things start. Okay, so at.

G

Least, we are not writing a new license here, which was all of the things I did before so yeah. Don't.

D

Okay, why our presentations on positions pros and cons, okay, I, will see what I can do. I will put a try to bring max to the meeting, find a CN CF lawyer, get presentations on positions of pros and cons all right, so that was my offer to do work from the list of things that might we might do work on okay,.

B

Sounds good? Does anybody have any other items yeah? Thank you. Does anybody have any other items on that on the backlog that they want to pick up to be in progress or things that we we should call attention to and make priority since.

G

We're talking about lawyers, how about the third-party dependencies.

B

What issue is that.

G

Bottom of the backlog- oh yeah, this is from Krista.

H

So I thought the CNC F is supposed to take charge of I thought they were hiring somebody cheated on it and to figure out the details of that I know, there was a separate tool that they were using and everything else too. So I have no idea what the state of that was.

G

D

I think this is he has. He has found two dependencies that are flagged as potential issues, so they have done. The audit and they're now asking us to define the feasibility of switching oh.

G

Maybe I should look at where exactly does this so.

D

There's another thing in here that yeah just dependencies.

D

That's a rat hole.

B

So it sounds like we need to get an update and figure out what what we need, what we can replace.

B

G

Yeah I can work this okay.

B

Do you have if you need any contact, information or intros, or anything like that? Let me know and I camera that up for you yeah.

G

You cannot say this to me. Thank you.

B

Okay sounds good. All righty um we have a few minutes left. Does anybody have anything else they want to bring up.

B

D

B

D

Got one which is view ratify and promote the kubernetes values? Have we not reviewed, ratified and merged them? I, remember giving.

B

An LG TM on that July.

D

11:30 YouTube, no one yeah I will he's got a YouTube video in here. Okay, I will chase that one okay.

B

Sounds good I thought there was a pull request and that we had merged thoughts. I think we had two okay in steering I thought. Okay, are we doing like anything, I think you had presented the value Sara at coop con? Do we have any plans at coop con to like do anything maybe meet with a community or anything like that? Do we want to do anything like that?

B

Have the steering committee have a steering committee question-and-answer period, yeah or just like yeah I mean how how do people yeah it'd be nice to like meet with people in person? I, don't know if anybody's doing an update or anything like that, coop Connor, if that has ever been discussed or is even needed. Anything like that. I.

H

Think it's worthwhile for the health of the community, so I mean we. We did it informally, like it. The first contributor summit and I don't think it's a bad thing to have it at the contributor summit because it seems more applicable than the broader community, because.

I

H

Who are actively engaged, so maybe we should I know that Paris is setting up the contributor Simon him her and George have been working on that. So perhaps we can quick run, do a drive-by and ask them if we can do a quick. You know spiel on or QA on that yeah.

B

That's a great idea: I love that, let's do that!

B

Do you want to take that, since also your idea? Okay,.

H

I'll go talk with George Paris sounds.

B

Good all right, thanks all right anything else that we want to pick up.

B

Have we organized office.

D

Hours yet so this has been the meet the contributors steering committee. Edition, that's been that.

B

Paris has been running: oh okay, I thought we were gonna have like a formal office hours on the weeks that we weren't meeting. For some reason, are we not gonna do that? We.

D

Had we we threw in the meat the contributors QA as sort of a let's, not fragment this further okay, so I think that finish. Is it um if people think we should do something else? That's a different conversation. Okay, cool I think I think stop taking notes somewhere. I'm, sorry, no worries this is recorded.

G

um Yes, so how how or when do we? When do people come to steering committee? Do we have like a page or some information that we share? Sometimes it feels like you know. One of us is doing something and we bring it to the committee right so, but do we have like a escalation process where things come up bubble up to us or how do we have it documented somewhere, yeah.

B

It's in the steering repo kubernetes / steering, if you see anything, that's missing, let me know, but the general process is you can email these steering mailing lists if you want to mention anything or bring anything up to the steering committee. If this, if the thing that you want to bring up is sensitive, then there is a steering private mailing list that people can mail.

B

Technically, you can open up an issue on the backlog, but other than Jason, maybe George in Paris I haven't really seen. Anyone do that and I. Don't think, that's something we advertise. So the mailing lists are like kind of the first, the main points where people can reach out and chat with us and then I say anything else, especially.

G

If there is, you know between, six are: if there is problems with people, yeah.

B

Yeah we were dealing with some code of conduct issues also before, but now we have a code of conduct committee, so they have their own separate mailing list, conduct kubernetes are you but yeah, we'll obviously ask like those as well so.

H

Apparently, apparently we do have a session at the end of the contributor summit, basically for QA and there's a link to the contributor summit that I will put in the street Channel. Okay,.

B

Cool, so we should also prep for that mm-hmm. Okay, great. We can maybe discuss that next meeting. I'll put that on the agenda.

B

Somebody do 10, plus 14 out of 24, okay cool, anything any last items before we hop off wow. This has been a smooth steering meeting I closed three issues, three issues: oh my gosh yeah I. Really, it really does see.