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A
A
C
Good
morning,
everyone
and
welcome
to
this
remote
hearing
of
the
licensing
subcommittee.
My
name
is
councillor
downs
and
I'll
be
chairing
today's
hearing
before
I
proceed
further,
could
I
remind
everyone
that
today's
meeting
is
being
streamed,
live
on
the
city
council's
youtube
channel
before
we
commence?
It's
been
noted
that
the
agenda
was
only
published
four
days
prior
to
this
hearing,
as
opposed
to
the
usual
five
days.
So,
can
I
have
confirmation
that
all
parties
are
agreeable
to
this?
I
will
take
your
silence
as
approval.
D
C
C
Even
though
members
of
the
panel
are
remote
in
remote
attendance,
while
items
today
will
be
fully
discussed
as
usual,
remote
attendance
requires
a
few
slight
changes
as
as
to
how
I
will
manage
the
debate.
Therefore,
can
all
attendees
mute
their
microphone
unless
I
invite
them
to
speak?
This
will
avoid
disruption
from
background
noise.
F
Oh
good
morning,
everybody,
my
name
is
matthew,
part
of
entertainment,
licensing
and
today
I'm
supported
by
samantha,
longfellow
pennico,
I'm
the
case
officer
for
the
application
victoria
radford.
Thank
you.
C
A
Under
agenda
item
number
two:
there
are
no
appeals
against
the
refusal
inspection
of
documents
under
item
number.
Three:
there
are
no
exempt
items
which
require
the
exclusion
of
the
press
or
public
under
agenda
item
number.
Four:
there
are
no
late
items.
There
has
been
some
supplement.
Supplementary
information
that
has
been
published
on
the
council's
website
alongside
the
agenda
and
circulated
to
all
parties
and
under
agenda
item
number
five
could
ask
members
if
they
have
any
disclosable
pecuniary
interest
to
declare.
C
C
Back
to
your
chair,
thank
you
and
there
were
a
couple
of
shakes
of
heads
from
my
colleagues
as
well.
Okay,
so
agenda
item
number
six
application
for
the
grant
of
a
premises
license
for
mercure
slots,
hair
hills
laying
leads.
Could
I
ask
the
applicant
and
their
representatives
to
introduce
themselves?
Please
we'll
start
with
mr
philip
colvin
qc.
G
C
Thank
you
next,
dr
richard
bradley.
Please.
A
C
Thank
you,
amanda.
C
C
A
C
A
C
Oh
sorry,
I
do
yeah
right
sergeant,
frederick
winter.
I
Yes,
hello,
it's
fred,
winster
and
I'm
the
neighborhood
police
and
sergeant
for
the
gibson
and
hair
hills.
Walk
with
west
yorkshire,
police.
C
D
It's
councillor,
denise
reagan,
it's
a
bit
like
bouquet,
I'm
councillor,
denis
reagan,
for
birmingham
richmond
hill,
but
I'm
also
the
inner
east
community
committee
chair
good
morning.
C
And
again,
please
accept
my
apologies
for
the
mispronunciation
of
your
name,
christina
giorgio.
J
C
C
Thank
you,
I
think.
That's
everybody
is
there
anybody
here
who
is
down
to
speak
karen?
Do
you
want
to
just
unmute
yourself
and
introduce
yourself.
C
Thank
you
karen.
Is
there
anybody
else?
I
can't
see
everybody
on
screen
so
because
I'm
operating
from
an
ipad.
So
if
there's
anybody
else,
that's
down
to
speak,
could
you
make
yourself
known
now?
Please,
no!
Okay.
Could
the
legal
advisor
to
the
subcommittee
outline
the
procedure
for
the
hearing?
Please.
E
Thank
you
chair.
This
is
an
application
for
a
new
bingo
premises,
license
for
premises
at
377
to
379,
hair
hills.
Lane
leads
ls
nine
six
ap
to
trade
under
the
name
of
murker
slots.
It's
proposed
by
the
subcommittee
that
the
hearing
will
proceed
as
follows:
counsel
for
the
applicant!
E
Okay,
sorry,
yes,
council
for
the
applicant
to
address
the
subcommittee
first.
The
other
parties
in
attendance
who
indicated
an
intention
to
speak
at
hearing,
will
then
address
the
subcommittee
and
then
the
applicant's
representative
council
will
then
have
the
opportunity
to
respond
to
anything
said
by
the
other
parties.
E
It
might
be
helpful
at
this
stage
to
set
a
running
order
for
the
objectors,
and
I
was
thinking
of
suggesting
the
following
order:
west
georgia
police
to
go
first
for
the
objectives
followed
by
the
licensing
authority,
followed
by
councillor
reagan
and
councillor
arav.
I
understand
that
councillor
reagan
and
council
arif
intend
to
call
as
witnesses
people
who
have
also
submitted
representations
in
their
own
right
rather
than
exercising
their
right
to
address
the
committee
as
parties.
E
Are
there
any
any
other
objectors
who
intend
to
speak
today?
Karen
harris?
Are
you
appearing
as
a
witness,
or
are
you
intending
to
speak
in
your
own
right?
K
I
I'm
actually
not
honest.
I
did
put
in
a
a
submission,
but
I
was
asked
at
the
last
minute
because
of
the
change
in
dates,
and
it
meant
that
the
person
who
was
due
to
speak
can't
because
they're
working
I'm
fortunate
I've
been
able
to
take
the
morning
off.
So
I'm
basically,
I
was
told
I
would
speak
in
their
place,
but.
E
E
Who
was
it?
You
were
going
to
you're
speaking
in
place
of.
E
All
right
didn't
see
him
on
the
list
of
intended
speakers.
A
If
I
may
come
in,
I
believe
I
would
call
in
karen
as
part
of
the
witness
as
a
resident.
E
Okay,
are
you
happy
with
that?
Karen
you
you,
if
you've
put
in
a
representation,
you
would
have
the
right
to
speak.
E
E
If
you're,
if
you're
called
as
a
witness,
then
you'll
you'll
be
included
in
the
time
allocation
of
counselor
araf,
because
a
limit
will
be
put
on
each
speaker.
K
I'll
speak
in
my
own
right
then,
because
having
gone
through
the
200
odd
pages,
I
don't
know
that
I
could
do
it
in
a
minute.
E
It
wouldn't
be
a
minute,
but
we're
going
to
come
to
that
to
the
time
allocations
shortly.
Actually,
okay,
thank
you
very
much
for
that.
So
you'll
probably
speak
either
as
a
witness
or
in
your
own
right,
but
probably
you
think
in
your
own
right.
Okay,
thank
you.
E
In
making
its
determination,
the
subcommittee
will
consider
what's
appropriate
and
proportionate
to
promote
the
licensing
objectives,
namely
either
prevent
preventing
gambling
from
being
a
source
of
crime
or
disorder
being
associated
with
criminal
disorder
or
being
used
to
support
crime,
be
ensuring
that
gambling
is
conducted
in
a
fair
and
open
way
and
c
protecting
children
and
other
vulnerable
persons
from
being
harmed
or
exploited
by
gambling.
E
The
subcommittee
would
generally
set
a
time
limit
on
presentations
and
on
the
basis
that
it
would
provide
the
same
time
limit
to
all
parties.
Now
I
I
think
the
usual
time
limit
we
have
for
premises
licenses.
It
was
50
minutes
per
party,
but
I
suspect
that
mr
colvin
do
you
have
any
idea
of
how
long
you
would
wish
to
speak
for.
E
Okay,
that
would
include
your
initial
address
and
responding
to
or
summing
up,
if
I
put
it
that
way.
Yes,
I
mean,
I,
I
think,
given
there's
quite
a
lot
of
information
here,
if
you,
if
you
did
wish
to
ask
for
longer,
I
appreciate
you
said
that
you
prepared
for
15
minutes.
If
you
wanted
to
to
factor
in
a
little
bit
of
leeway
there,
then
I
think
you
could
certainly
put
that
to
to.
C
Would
it
be
easier
to
say
15
minutes,
initially,
objectives
to
have
20
minutes
and
then
a
five
minute
back
to
the
to
mr
colvin
so
that
he
can
then
sum
up
based
on
you
know
and
address
the
issues
that
the
objectives
have
put?
Would
that
be
better.
G
But
I'm
not
going
to
know
how
I'm
going
to
deal
with
them
until
I
hear
it
so
will
I
just
have
a
little
bit
of
extra
time
just
to
be
able
to
deal
with
new
points
which
have
arisen
during
the
course
of
all
the
oral
addresses
you're
about
to
hear.
Would
that
come
out
of
my
15
minutes?
Or
might
I
have
a
little
bit
of
time
on
top.
C
Because
of
the
number
of
objectives,
would
it
be
possible,
robert
to
say,
allow
10
minutes
for
the
initial
presentation
objectives
to
have
15
and
sorry
20
and
then
a
further
10
for
addressing
the
points
right?
Is
that
permissible.
C
E
The
committee
members,
but
I
I
suppose
I
should
just
canvass
the
views
of
the
other
speakers-
do
any
of
the
objectives
think
that
they
would
need
longer
than
20
minutes.
C
C
E
Well,
it
would
I
was.
I
was
suggesting
that
that
would
be
within
their
20
minutes.
They
would
choose
to
call
a
witness
to
give
evidence.
They
don't
get
the
witnesses
time.
On
top,
that's.
D
E
Karen
that,
if
she
wished
to
address
the
committee
in
her
own
right
as
an
objector,
then
she
would
get
the
same
time
allocation
20
minutes
rather
than
just
being
included
in
counselor
arif's
time
yeah.
E
C
And
are
we
happy,
therefore,
to
allow
10
minutes
for
presentation
a
case
and
10
minutes
for
addressing
objectives,
concerns.
E
E
Please
note
we
do
not
permit
cross-examination
in
subcommittee
as
a
rule.
If
any
party
feels
there
is
a
crucial
question
that
needs
to
be
asked
and
answered.
Please
do
not
ask
the
person
directly,
but
instead
make
a
request
to
the
chair.
Who
will
determine
whether
or
not
the
question
should
be
put
parties
may
request
permission
to
call
witnesses,
as
we've
already
discussed,
several
of
the
parties
have
already
indicated
that
they
will
be
doing
so.
All
documents
that
have
previously
been
submitted
have
been
copied
and
circulated
to
the
subcommittee
in
advance.
E
You
should
all
have
the
same
original
papers
consisting
of
a
main
agenda
pack
bundle
numbered
to
460.,
and
I
understand
that
the
parties
have
also
been
provided
with
a
copy
of
mr
corbyn's
skeleton
argument.
It
would
be
helpful
in
referring
to
documents
to
identify
which
document
you're,
referring
to
by
its
bundle
page
number.
E
Additional
documents
may
now
be
tabled
with
the
consent
of
all
parties.
Are
there
any
other
documents
which
any
party
wishes
to
refer
to
good?
Thank
you.
E
Please
note
that
your
presentation
is
your
opportunity
to
address
the
subcommittee,
so
you
should
try
to
include
everything
that
you
wish
the
committee
to
take
into
account
after
the
parties
have
made
their
presentations
and
after
any
questions
the
subcommittee
members
will
go
into
a
private
session.
If
members
have
any
additional
questions
to
ask,
they
will
return
to
the
meeting
to
ask
those
questions.
E
They'll
then
return
to
the
private
session
to
make
their
decision
can
all
parties
please
remain
in
the
meeting
until
they're
asked
to
leave
all
the
parties
will
be
informed
once
the
hearing
has
ended
and
then
will
be
advised
the
decision
in
writing
within
five
working
days
from
tomorrow.
C
Okay,
can
we
now
hear
from
the
application
from
the
entertainment
licensing
please.
F
In
accordance
with
the
gambling
commission's
license,
conditions
and
close
of
practice
is
a
requirement
for
all
licensees,
except
for
those
which
hold
the
truck
betting
license
to
provide
a
local
area
risk
assessment
to
identify
and
address
the
local
risk
presented
by
the
provision
of
of
gambling
facilities,
a
copy
of
the
local
risk
assessment
and
an
additional
bundle
provided
by
the
applicant
to
support
the
application
can
be
found
at
appendix
c,
starting
on
page
23
of
the
report.
F
F
The
representation
raised
by
west
yorkshire
police
is
on
this
occasion,
provided
by
the
sergeant
of
the
local
neighborhood
policing
team,
and
the
copy
can
be
viewed
on
page
331
at
appendix
e.
On
behalf
of
interested
parties.
The
application
has
attracted
a
joint
representation
from
the
local
ward
councillors
of
gipton
and
ariel's,
and
birmingham
richmond
hill
ward,
as
the
applying
premises
lies
close
to
the
boundary
of
both
constituencies.
F
Additional
licensing
authorities
in
receipt
of
a
total
of
14
individual
letters
of
representation
for
local
residents,
expressing
concerns
primarily
on
the
grounds
of
protecting
children
and
vulnerable
persons.
The
representations
by
the
ward
members
and
local
residents
are
numbered
one
to
fifteen
appendix
f
of
the
agenda
pack,
which
starts
on
page
335.
F
F
The
mandarin
and
default
conditions
of
which
the
applicant
does
not
propose
to
exclude
any
default
condition
from
the
operating
schedule
can
be
found
appendix
age.
On
page
459
of
the
report
and
the
gaming
machine
limits
in
respect
to
the
bingo
premises,
license
can
be
noted
at
point
11
of
the
report,
and
that
chair
is
the
application.
Thank
you.
C
Thank
you.
Could
I
now
invite
the
applicant
to
present
the
application.
G
Thank
you
very
much
indeed,
chair
councils,
I'd
like
to
start
by
coming
straight
to
the
point
and
acknowledging
that
this
application
is
made
in
a
deprived
area.
G
G
Its
board
is
committed
to
the
promotion
of
the
licensing
objectives,
including
by
developing
new
methods
of
protection
of
vulnerable
people
at
industry
and
company
level.
The
company
leaves
nothing
to
chance.
It
has
well-established
and
constant
operational
processes
and
staff
training
systems,
full
details
of
which
we've
provided
to
you
and
we've
also
described
them.
G
If
issues
are
identified
from
any,
they
are,
of
course
acted
upon
immediately
now.
All
of
this
is
extensively
set
out
in
the
material,
and
I
do
not
believe
that
the
company's
commitment,
its
systems,
its
training,
compliance
or
its
performance
are
being
questioned
with
anybody,
as
indeed
they're
not
questioned
in
any
of
its
other
applications.
G
G
G
G
G
Staff
are
trained
to
actively
monitor
the
exterior
and
cctv
is
ploy
and
deployed
inside
and
out.
Any
incidents
are
logged
and
reviewed
at
a
senior
level
and
reporting
lines
are
established
with
local
police
teams.
If
anything
untoward
ever
happens,
it's
dealt
with
you
just
don't
get
loitering
or
street
drinking
or
disorder
outside,
and
I
can
say
that
anybody
is
free
to
visit
any
of
the
premises
in
my
clients
estate
to
confirm
that
if
they
so
wish.
G
G
Children
are
not
admitted
at
all,
they
can't
even
see
in
so
they
can't
watch
gambling
taking
place,
even
though
they
can
in
many
other
premises,
including
many
in
hair
hills
itself.
There's
no
exterior
advertising
attractive
to
them.
Challenge
25
is
strictly
applied
and
notices
to
that
effect
are
placed
on
the
facade.
G
We
are
therefore
more
than
confident
the
children
are
protected
from
being
harmed
by
gambling,
the
residual
idea
advanced
by
one
or
two
objectives.
The
children
must
be
protected
from
even
knowing
that
their
walking
past
a
gambling
establishment
does
not
represent
the
law
or
national
or
indeed
your
local
policy,
vulnerable
people.
G
G
Seventhly,
the
ban
on
alcohol
speaks
for
itself.
Alcohol
is
not
banned
in
bingo
premises.
It's
banned
in
my
clients,
bingo
premises
on
the
high
street.
Eighthly,
it
will
train
staff
in
local
issues
and
invite
the
licensing
authority
and
police
to
participate
in
that
training
if
they
wish.
G
Tenthly,
it
will
ensure
that
its
advice
and
support
information
are
also
given
in
languages
appropriate
to
the
area,
given
the
diversity
of
the
local
population
and
11th.
And,
of
course
my
client
has
offered
closure
from
midnight
to
9.
00
am
so
that
there's
a
cut-off
point
for
gambling
every
day
and
all
of
those
matters
are
dealt
with
in
the
evidence
and
skeleton.
G
To
conclude,
neither
the
act
nor
the
guidance
nor
your
policy,
nor
even
lead
city
councils
commissioned
research,
says
that
licenses
should
actually
be
refused
in
deprived
areas.
Far
less
does
it
name
areas
where
licenses
should
be
refused.
There
is
no
such
thing
as
a
gambling
community
of
impact
policy
nationally
or
in
leads
no
presumption
against
licensing.
G
Rather,
as
you
have
been
advised,
there
is
an
aim
to
permit
which,
as
the
books
say,
means
applying
conditions
to
seek
solutions
to
issues
rather
than
preventing
altogether,
and
that's
what
my
client
has
sought
to
do
now.
If
there
are
matters,
we've
not
thought
of
by
way
of
conditions,
we
would
be
more
than
pleased
to
discuss
them.
This
is
not
a
pass
fail
test
and
I
hope
that
if
there
are
still
concerns
we
can
see
in
the
discussion
whether
there
is
a
way
to
overcome
them.
Thank
you
very
much
indeed
for
listening
to
me.
C
Thank
you.
Does
the
subcommittee
have
any
questions
to
the
applicant.
C
B
Okay
right,
thank
you,
okay,
so,
first
of
all
in
in
the
skeleton
argument
top
of
page
six,
it
refers
to
customer
demographics
being
in
the
older
age
bracket,
but
in
the
risk
assessment
that
murca
slots
have
carried
out,
it
states
that
the
age
group
of
this
particular
area
is
mostly
age
30
to
59..
B
So
it
doesn't
suggest
that
this
area
it
falls
into
the
age
group
that
that
mocha
slots
would
normally
expect
to
be
the
age
group
of
their
customers.
B
Given
that
and
given
the
fact
that
over
50
of
the
population
in
the
area
are
on
low
incomes,
77
of
them
unemployed,
what
is
the
business
rationale
behind
choosing
this
particular
area
over
a
more
affluent
area?
Also,
given
the
fact
that
the
research
that's
been
conducted
has
suggested
that-
and
this
is
on
page
327
of
the
pack,
there
are
certain
groups
that
are
more
vulnerable
to
gambling
related
harm
and
there's
a
list
of
groups
there
and
all
those
groups
are
known
to
be
in
this
particular
area.
B
So
please,
could
you
explain
what
the
business
rationale
is
behind?
Choosing
an
area
of
deprivation
as
opposed
to
a
more
affluent
area,
an
area
of
deprivation,
where
it's
known
that
there
are
a
number
of
people
that
outfall
into
the
more
vulnerable
groups
that
can
suffer
harm
from
from
gambling.
That's
my
first
question.
B
My
next
question
is
in
relation
to
the
protection
of
children,
and
I
appreciate
that
comments
have
been
made
about
how
to
protect
children
from
from
entering
they're
not
allowed
to
enter
the
premises
and
they're
not
allowed
to
engage
in
gambling,
but
is
given
what
I've
said
about
the
demographics
of
this
particular
area
and
the
fact
that
over
50
percent,
seven
percent
of
the
children
in
the
area
are
already
in
poverty.
B
What
will
mercur
slots
do
to
protect
the
children
of
the
people
who
are
losing
money
in
in
in
the
bingo
hall,
if,
indeed
they
are
losing
money
because
and
also
has
any
have
mercury
conducted,
any
research
into
the
overall
loss
and
gains
of
their
customers,
so
how
many
of
them
actually
win
and
how
overall,
over
a
certain
period
of
time
and
how
many
and
how
many
lose
I'd,
also
like
to
know
if
there
is
a
cap
on
a
customer
loss
per
session,
is
there
anything
in
place
that
prevents
customers
from
losing
more
than
a
particular
amount,
does
make
a
slots
offer
credit
to
customers,
and
if
it's,
if
it
does,
what
protections
are
in
place
to
ensure
the
credits
affordable
to
them
to
the
customer,
and
did
I
have
another
one?
B
Oh
yes,
so
also
on
page
seven
of
the
skeleton
argument,
it
states
that
if
the
customer
is
showing
signs
of
problematic
problem
gambling,
then
obviously
the
support
offered.
What
I'd
like
to
know
is
what
criteria
is
used
to
determine
what
should
be
considered
as
problem
gambling
and
how
you
would
recognize
that?
Okay,
I
think
I
think.
That's
all
my
questions.
Thank
you.
Okay,.
G
I
think
I
was
on
mute
throughout
all
that.
That's
quite
it's
quite
a
lesson.
So,
let's
work
through
that
list
and
I'll
do
my
very
best
to
answer
those
questions
properly.
G
Just
so
far
as
the
age
is
concerned,
I
think
what
my
client
was
trying
to
convey
is
that
gambling
in
these
high
street
bingo
establishments
is
largely
more
attractive
to
an
older
demographic
around
about
50
percent
of
which
is
female.
So
it's
not
it's
not
really
attractive
to
a
much
younger
demographic.
G
I
I'm
not
sure
whether
my
client,
in
its
risk
assessment,
has
taken
the
view
that
its
age,
demographic
is
going
to
be
different
here
from
anywhere
else,
but
maybe
I
can
ask
one
of
those
who
are
involved
in
the
risk
assessment
to
see
whether
they
can
come
in
on
that
point.
Maybe
we
could
ask
jill
klullo
perhaps
to
come
in
and
just
talk
about
the
the
age
demographic
in
in
casino
generally
and
and
here
in
leeds.
A
Well,
yeah,
obviously,
in
this
area,
as
you
said
in
in
the
risk
assessment,
I
compiled
majority
of
the
people
in
the
hair
hills
area
are
between
age,
between
30
and
59.
B
At
the
higher
end
of
that
spectrum,
rather
than
the
lower
end,
but.
G
I'd
rather
assume
that
might
be
the
case
now
so
far
as
where
these
applications
go.
Obviously,
my
client
makes
applications
where
there
are
available
premises
and
where
it
can
find
a
business
case
for
the
premises
to
go.
I'm
just
going
to
just
respectfully
say
councillor
that
the
question
of
demand
for
the
premises.
G
The
question
of
the
business
case
is
dealt
with
under
section
one
five
three
and
it's
it's
not
a
matter
which
is
either
relevant
to
the
subcommittee
or
which
the
subcommittee
can
can
explore,
but
it
would
be
fair
to
say
that
in
leeds
as
a
whole,
there's
probably
an
under
provision
of
bingo,
the
ratio
of
bingo
to
betting
officers
or
betting
officers
to
bingo
nationally
is
about
eleven
to
one,
whereas
in
leeds.
G
I
think,
on
the
last
data
I
saw
there
were
about
105
betting
officers
and
five
bingo
establishments,
and
so
it's
it's
pretty
clear
that
in
leeds
there
there
is
some
demand
for
bingo
to
happen.
But
what
my
client
does
is
it
looks
for
areas
where
it
feels
there
may
be
demand.
It
looks
for
premises
where
the
rent
is
acceptable
and
it
makes
applications
and
it
has
to
apply
for
planning
which
has
been
granted
here
and
and
then
it
applies
for
the
license.
G
But
the
exact
demand
question
is
not
one
which
can
really
be
placed
in
front
of
the
sub
in
front
of
the
subcommittee,
and
I
think
it's
probably
just
worth
trying
to
reiterate
this.
G
This
point
that
in
under
the
gambling
act,
the
discretion
is
rather
narrower
than
it
is
under
the
licensing
act
and
it
certainly
much
narrower
than
it
is
under
the
the
town
and
country
planning
act,
because
when
it
comes
to
planning,
you
can
look
at
all
of
these
broad
questions,
whereas
under
section
153
of
the
gambling
act
and
our
evidence
is
very
much
structured.
G
That
way,
there's
an
aim
to
permit
provided
that
you've
dealt
with
the
risks
which
are
set
out
in
in
the
codes
of
practice
and
so
forth,
and
that's
how
this
has
been
presented.
G
The
second
question
counselor
was
in
relation
to
the
protection
of
children
from
harm
and
what
that
means
in
the
licensed
conditions
and
codes
of
practice
and
in
the
gambling
commission's
guidance
and
also
indeed,
in
your
policy,
is
protection
from
being
harmed
or
exploited
by
gambling,
and
that
is
generally
taken
to
mean
and
means
in
leads
and
from
being
harmed,
both
by
playing
and
also
in
the
way
that
they
are
exposed
to
gambling.
G
And
so,
for
example,
it's
it's
it's
legal
to
allow
children
into
bingo
establishments.
G
The
act
says
that
it's
it's
legal
to
allow
them
into
family
entertainment
centers,
which
is
seaside
arcades,
it's
legal
to
allow
them
into
pubs
where
there
are
category
c
gaming
machines
which
are
replicated
by
eighty
percent
of
the
machines
in
my
client's
own
premises
and,
and
so
the
the
obligation
is
to
stop
them
gambling
and
is
also
to
stop
them
witnessing
advertising
which
would
induce
them
to
gamble,
and
so
there's
rules
about
what
it
is
that
you
can
promote
and
how
you
can
promote
it
in
a
way
which
is
visible
to
children.
G
But
then,
when
it
comes
to
adults
again,
the
way
the
legislation
is
framed
is
that
there's
an
aim
to
permit.
So
parliament
is
seeing
gambling
as
a
legitimate
activity,
but
is
trying
to
make
sure
that
people
who
are
vulnerable
don't
gamble
more
than
they
want
to
more
than
they
can
afford
to,
and
also
that
people
who
are
affected
either
permanently
because
of
some
mental
disability
or
also
temporarily,
through
their
exposure
to
alcohol
or
drugs,
are
not
gambling
because
they
would
obviously
be
vulnerable.
G
So
this
this
question,
counsel,
which
you
raise
is
answered
by
the
measures
which
my
client
puts
in
place
to
to
protect
vulnerable
people
from
being
harmed
or
exploited
by
gambling
so
far
as
win
loss
and
so
forth.
The
way
this
is
dealt
with
varies
according
to
the
type
of
gambling
establishment,
which
you
have
lead.
G
City
council
decided
that
it
wanted
to
pitch
to
have
the
large
casino
in
leeds
where
you
can
go
in
and
gamble
effectively
as
much
as
you
want
leeds
has
over
a
hundred
betting
officers
where
you
can
go
and
put
bets
on
as
much
as
you
like
and
so
forth.
But
when
it
comes
to
bingo,
there
are
really
two
ways
to
gamble:
in
a
casino
gambling
establishment,
you
can
gamble
on
machines
whose
stake
and
prize
limit
is
governed
by
legislation.
G
Gambling
of
the
sort
that
you
find
in
pubs
and
only
20
can
be
what
are
called
category
b3,
which
are
the
same
level
other
allowed
in
the
four
machines
which
are
allowed
in
each
of
the
licensed
betting
offices,
which
you
have
locally.
So
in
that
way,
parliament
is
trying
to.
G
My
client's
experience
is
that
the
average
stake
made
by
customers
is
in
the
region,
30
to
40
p
from
recollection
and
then,
in
addition
to
the
machines,
there
are
a
series
of
bingo
games
which
are
played
on
tablet,
my
clients,
experience
being
that,
even
in
the
large
flat
floor,
bingo
halls,
the
sort
that
you
and
I
may
have
grown
up
with,
in
fact,
which
my
first
job
was
in.
Although
they're
given
paper
tickets,
people
prefer
now
these
days
to
play
on
these
electronic
tablets.
G
There's
electronic
tablets
and
the
the
limits
on
those
tablets
are
set
out
in
the
papers,
but
they
go
down
to
10p.
So
people
want
to
play
for
literally
for
coppers.
Then
they
can
do
that
as
well.
So
I
would
say
that
in
comparison
to
what
what
might
routinely
be
gambled
in
a
betting
officer
on
a
casino,
this
is
reasonably
low
level.
Gambling.
It's
not
penny,
falls
stuff,
it's
commercial
gambling
and
that's
why
it
needs
a
license
and
that's
that's.
Why
there's
all
these
protections
set
out
so
far
as
credit
is
concerned?
G
Now
you
can't
grant
credit
in
a
in
a
bigger
solution.
Nobody
can
come
in
and
say
I'm
getting
paid
monday.
G
Can
you
can
you
credit
me
up
with
20
quid
that
that
just
doesn't
happen
so
far
as
customer
losses
per
session
are
concerned,
the
way
this
works
and
if
I
can
just
sort
of
relied
that
with
your
third
question,
you
could
get
somebody
who
could
go
into
a
betting
office
and
gamble
with
quite
a
lot
of
money,
or
indeed
a
binge
assumption,
gamble
with
quite
a
lot
of
money
and
it
wouldn't
be
doing
them
any
harm
at
all.
G
You
can
get
somebody
who
go
in
and
bet
10
pounds
in
a
betting
office
and
what
they
bet,
in
fact,
is
their
dinner
money.
So
it's
not
it's
not
actually
about
the
simply
the
sun,
which
is
being
bet
instead.
The
way
the
gambling
commission
looks
at
this
and
publishes
guidance
on
this
called
customer
interaction
and
then
the
way
this
is
then
cascaded
down
into
premises.
G
Establishment
through
the
accredited
training
that
I've
talked
about,
which
is
internationally
and
nationally
accredited,
is
the
custom,
is
that
staff
are
there
to
recognize
particular
gambling
behaviors,
which
are
indicative
of
problem
gambling
and
those
things
might
be,
for
example,
repeat
trips
to
an
atm,
it
might
be
trying
to
borrow
money
from
people.
It
might
be
signs
of
frustration,
literally
behavioral
signs.
G
So
that
is
why
the
fact
that
my
clients
staff
walk
the
floor
and
it's
a
floor
which
usually
has
two
three
four
five
people
on
it.
They
can
see
what
is
going
on
and
you
do
not
get
prizes
in
my
client's
establishment
for
not
intervening.
You
sometimes
read
about
how
betting
companies
almost
induce
people
to
bet
more
and
bet
larger.
My
client
awards
no
prizes
for
that
at
all.
It's
exactly
the
opposite.
G
If
it's
seen
that
my
client
is
not
intervening
because
the
auditors
are
seeing
from
the
data
which
has
to
be
entered
on
the
smart
tab,
that
of
the
number
of
interventions
and
their
outcomes
that
triggers
audit
that
triggers
management
intervention,
because
interventions
are
not
have
happening
at
the
level
which
should
be
expected
so
coming
here.
My
clients
staff
will
have
drummed
into
them
that
this
is
an
area
with
an
with
a
higher
than
average
number
of
vulnerable
people
and
will
set
out
in
its
training
and
its
operation,
its
management
and
its
audit.
G
To
ensure
that
my
client
is
reflecting
that
in
its
processes
and
in
the
way
that
it
interacts
with
people.
Now
that's
from
me,
but
it
may
be
that
one
of
my
witnesses,
amanda
or
jill,
who
works
in
premises
and
also
audit
premises,
can
can
help
on
that
question
about
behavioral
indicators.
Can
someone
just
leave
the
floor
open
to
them
to
come
in
if
they,
if
they
feel
they
might
be
helpful.
B
A
Yes,
yeah
just
sort
of
back
up
there
with
what
philip
has
sort
of
responded
there
and
we
did.
We,
we
put
a
lot
of
emphasis
on
training
our
employees,
you
know
for
their
benefit
as
well
of
our
customers,
so
they're
comfortable
working
in
these
environments
and
they're
comfortable
approaching
these
customers
interacting
with
them,
and
I
would
like
to
say
that
we
do
know
our
customers.
You
know
people
do,
they
do
know
the
local
area.
My
team
of
watch
jill
is
one
of
them.
A
Is
the
audit
team
which
regularly
visit
the
venues
and
we
will
challenge
the
employees
on
how
they're
managing
their
customers,
how
they're
interacting
with
them
and
also
remotely
we
collect
all
of
this
data
which
records
customer
interactions,
and
we
we
share
that
with
the
operations
team,
so
that
the
operational
managers,
the
area
managers
that
look
after
these
venues
can
go
down,
go
to
these
managers
and
their
employees
and
discuss
with
them
how
they're
doing
their
customer
interactions
and
if
we
identify
any
shortfalls
any
lags
in
lacking
training.
A
We
will
address
them
with
our
learning
and
development
team.
So
I
feel
we
have
a
very
comprehensive
support
structure
for
all
of
our
employees
throughout
the
whole
of
the
all
of
the
venues,
not
the
whole
of
the
group.
So
I
hope
that
helps
a
little.
G
So
my
client
is
trying
to
equip
people
who
come
into
its
premises
with
the
ability
to
pre-set
limits
and
then
enable
staff,
if
the,
if
the
customer
sets
the
app
in
that
way
to
intervene
if
those
limits
are
not
being
observed.
So
my
client
doesn't
take
any
sort
of
great
pleasure
in
trying
to
get
people
to
gamble
beyond
their
limits.
It
much
prefers
and
sets
out
its
its
operation
to
ensure
that
this
is
just
a
leisure
activity.
G
It's
no
different
from
going
into
a
pub
and
having
a
drink,
it's
just
a
leisure
activity,
a
way
to
pass
some
time.
It's
not
investment.
The
customer
knows
that
the
machines
are
set
to
provide
a
return,
but
that
on
average,
if
you
gamble
you
are
going
to
lose,
nobody
hides
that.
It's
just
a
pastime,
you
hope
you're
going
to
win
and
walk
out
with
a
few
pounds,
but
it's
not
a
way
to
get
rich
you're
not
going
to
do
it
and
my
client
doesn't
pretend
otherwise
to
anybody.
C
C
D
Yes,
just
one,
which
is
probably
just
a
personal
thing-
I
am
a
children's
champion-
obviously
do
a
lot
with
children
and
my
worry
is:
perhaps
the
children's
life
might
be
affected
by
their
parents
gambling.
So
that's
my
worry
that
I'd
like
to
put
before
you,
okay,.
G
And
counselor,
I
I
completely
understand
the
concern.
You're
you're,
not
the
first
person
who've
said
that
and
I
don't
want
to
appear
sort
of
cynical
or
dismissive
about
the
concern
we're
all
working
within
the
system
which
there
is.
I
could
say
the
same
to
you
about
parents
drinking.
G
Then
my
mum
or
dad
went
online
sitting
on
the
sofa
where
that
human
interaction
did
not
take
place
at
all.
Different
countries
deal
with
risk
in
a
different
way,
whether
that's
speeding
or
whether
it's
alcohol,
whether
it's
fatty
foods
or
whether
it's
drugs
and
so
forth.
But
in
our
country,
parliament
has
seen
gambling
as
a
legitimate
high
street
activity,
but
what
it's
asked
is
that
operators
understand
local
risk
and
put
in
place
measures
to
respond
to
that
risk.
G
Gambling
is
just
a
pleasant
leisure
activity.
It's
just
a
way
of
passing
some
time,
and
so
what
you
need
to
do
is
put
in
place
systems
to
protect
people
who
don't
have
that
advantage,
but
who
are
vulnerable
and
that's
what
my
client
has
tried
to
do
really
assiduously,
in
this
case,
with
conditions
which
go
miles
beyond
well.
Its
other
five
premises
have
none
the
other
eight
premises
in
hair
hills.
I
can
guarantee
you
will
have
none.
G
C
Okay,
I
have
one
question
on
page
25
of
the
pack,
which
is
page
3
of
17,
of
the
the
submission
where
we've
got
it's
about
the
age
verification.
C
C
How
exactly
does
that
work?
Because
we've
got
here?
It
says
that
they
adopt
to
think
25
policy,
and
it
says
age.
Verification
checks
are
carried
out
and
recorded.
Any
person
unable
or
unwilling
to
verify
their
age
with
appropriate
id
will
be
told
to
leave.
If
they've
managed
to
play
the
machines,
their
staked
money
will
be
returned
to
us.
C
Two
questions
arise
from
that
one
is
that
means
that
a
young
person
could
enter
the
premise
in
theory,
get
to
a
machine
and,
in
theory,
start
to
gamble,
because
there
is
no,
it
would
appear,
there's
no
check
before
they
get
in
and
then
how
do
you
ascertain
how
much
staked
money
to
return?
Should
that
be
the
case.
G
This
fair
question
councillor,
I
I
think
the
the
the
answer
I
want
to
give
you
is
that
I
think
it's
about
10
000
betting
officers
in
this
country
and
when
you
walk
into
a
betting
office,
you're,
not
greeted
within
a
couple
of
meters
by
somebody
in
a
uniform
saying.
Oh
can
I
just
check
your
age.
G
The
staff
member
will
be
behind
the
counter
and
if
somebody
to
walk
were
to
walk
in
at
race
time,
the
staff
men
will
have
their
head
down
taking
or
paying
out
bets
gambling
subjects
in
this
country,
with
the
exception
of
casinos,
do
not
have
door
staff
on
the
door
literally
preventing
anybody
walking
in,
but
my
client's
experience
is
that
the
number
of
children
who
want
to
come
in
is
vanishingly
small
and
if
they
get
in,
they
will
be
challenged
pretty
well
immediately.
G
G
It
is
something
which
happens
vanishingly
rarely
in
my
client's
experience
of
operating
these
establishments.
These
assumptions
just
aren't
attractive
to
children
at
all.
As
soon
as
you
walk
in,
you
will
stick
out
like
a
sore
thumb
so
far
as
how
much
would
be
returned.
In
theory,
all
the
machines
obviously
are
connected
to
the
counter
by
a
computer.
G
So
if,
in
theory
a
child
were
able
to
get
in
their
cctv,
you
would
easily
be
able
to
show
the
client
that
the
child
had
started
gambling
at
1008
and
had
been
challenged
at
1009
and
you'd
be
able
to
see
how
much
money
they
put
into
the
machine
in
that
minute.
But
I
really
do
have
to
stress
that
this
is
some
not
something
which,
which
is,
is
actually
happening
in
my
clients
premises.
It's
just
a
system
to
ensure
that
were
it
to
happen
that
it's
properly
dealt
with.
C
Okay,
just
to
come
back
to
you,
then
so
what
you're
saying
is
the
key
reason
why
young
people
wouldn't
come
in
is
because
they
wouldn't
want
to
come
in,
because
it's
not
an
establishment
that
would
appeal
to
them,
but
in
fairness
they
could
go
into
a
betting
shop
or
something
like
that
before
being
challenged,
because
there
is
nobody
on
the
door.
C
Is
there
anything
that
your
client
would
like
to
do
to
ensure
that
this
policy
that
your
policy
to
not
allow
young
people
in
is
addressed
so
that
it
can't
they
can't
get
to
a
machine?
Is
that
something
that
you
can
address?
C
G
G
I
mean
all
of
those
places
are
places
where
children
can
go
in
actually
legally
and
then
sidle
over
to
a
machine
and
gamble,
whereas
in
my
client's
premises,
there's
big
notes
on
the
door
saying
you
can't
get
in
legally.
I
think
what
I
I
don't
want
again.
I
don't
want
you
to
think
that
my
client
is
just
being
dismissive
about
this,
but
if
I
can
tell
you
how
much
of
a
problem
this
is
nationally,
my
client
doesn't
have
a
door
supervision
condition
on
any
of
its
180
premises.
G
Nationally,
not
one
and
mr
butterworth
has
produced
a
report
has
explained
he.
He
spent
his
whole
life
in
a
severely
deprived
area
which
is
rochdale
where
my
client
has
traded
for
30
years
without
concern.
G
So
the
the
answer
I'd
like
to
give
you
is
that
if
there
were
a
concern
arising
once
it
had
opened
that
its
ordinary
procedures
were
not
being
effective,
then
my
client
is
going
to
jump
all
over
that
because
it
does
not
want
children
in
its
premises
at
all,
let
alone
gambling.
So
my
client
would
would
it's
risk
assessed
at
the
beginning.
G
So
they
can
see
whether
this
fear,
which
hasn't
materialized
elsewhere
materializes
here,
if,
as
we
proceed
through
this
hearing
now
or
after
you've
discussed
for
a
few
minutes
at
the
end,
you
feel
that
there
needs
to
be
a
sort
of
further
offer
on
this
topic.
Then
I'll
be
glad
to
sit
down
with
my
clients
and
discuss
it.
C
I
Yes,
good
morning,
as
I
said
earlier,
my
name
is
fred
winster,
I'm
the
neighborhood
police
in
sergeant,
and
I
work
in
a
an
area
called
inner
east,
which
covers
birmingham
richmond
hill
ward
area,
which
is
where
the
proposed
site
is,
and
it's
just
on,
the
border
with
gibson
hills,
ward,
which
I'm
the
lead
sergeant
for.
I
In
essence,
my
role
is
to
deal
with
local
problems,
long
term
in
relation
to
policing
and
and
to
engage
with
the
community.
So
over
the
past
two,
almost
two
years.
I
I've
also
a
good
understanding
of
the
local
areas
and
the
problems
that
exist
in
them
do
object
to
the
proposed
site
and
the
granting
of
a
license,
and
primarily
on
the
grounds
that
will
increase
crime
and
disorder
in
the
local
area,
and
I
carried
out
an
analysis
of
crime
relating
to
local
gambling
establishments,
which
are
already
present,
and
there
are
four
which
I
know
of
within
fifth
of
a
mile
of
the
bow
site
and
they
have
all
experienced
high
level
of
demand
or
what
I
regard
as
a
high
level
of
demand.
I
Specifically,
I
I
looked
through
all
the
calls
and
I've
stripped
out
ones
that
don't
relate
to
the
premises
so
fights
outside
and
just
dealt
with
crimes
and
anti-social
behavior,
which
have
been
reported
within
those
gambling
establishments.
One
store
had
six
sorry.
I
should
clarify
that
these
I
did
the
analysis
on
the
25th
of
august,
so
it's
slightly
out
of
date.
I
One
store
had
16
calls
second
27
and
the
third
had
11
calls
and
a
fourth
premises
had
41
calls,
but
I
wasn't
able
to
remove
ones
that
weren't
directly
related
to
the
premises
for
that
one,
because
of
the
way
that
our
calls
are
recorded
even
more
significantly.
Bearing
in
mind
the
area
experiences.
Unfortunately,
a
high
level
of
crime
and
a
high
level
of
disorder,
and
we've
discussed
already
a
high
level
of
deprivation,
which
I
don't
think
anybody
disputes
gambling
establishments
for
hair
hills
lane,
which
is
a
large
long
street.
I
Seven
percent
of
calls
with
the
gambling
establishments
over
the
over
the
year
leading
up
to
august
hills
road
again,
an
extremely
long
street,
which
is
busy
with
pedestrians,
has
a
lot
of
retail
premises.
There
was
eight
percent
relate
to
gambling
establishments
and
on
compton
road,
which
is
a
much
smaller
street.
39
of
the
total
cause
for
compton
road
in
the
year
leading
up
to
august
were
to
gambling
establishments.
I
So
I
don't
doubt
that
the
the
applicants,
professional
individuals
who
have
a
clear
plan
on
how
to
address
the
various
different
concerns
that
have
been
raised
and
I've
visited
their
premises
elsewhere
and
my
opinion
is
that
they
are
well-managed
gambling
establishments,
but
because
of
the
nature
of
the
area
and
the
evidence
that
I've
looked
through.
I
If
the
license
is
granted,
they
have
raised
a
comparison
within
there
with
asda,
which
they've
mentioned,
which
also
experiences
a
high
level
of
demand,
and
I
would
point
out
that
the
different
premises,
custer's
extremely
large
supermarket,
has
thousands
of
people
come
in
every
day
sells
thousands,
if
not
tens
of
thousands
of
pounds
worth
of
products
every
day
and
all
supermarkets
in
the
lee's
area,
experience
high
levels
of
demand
and
police
have
to
attend
them
regularly
and
they're,
just
just
a
different
type
of
premises.
I
Yeah.
The
only
other
point
I
would
raise
is,
I
don't
think
the
license
should
be
granted.
That's
that's
my
opinion.
That's
why
I've
object
objected
to
it
and
I'm
particularly
concerned
about
the
late
or
relatively
late
opening
hours,
where
the
other
gambling
establishments
close
at
10
p.m,
and
this
site
will
remain
open
after
that
time.
So
I
suspect
so
I
don't
know
because
it's
not
open
yet.
I
I
suspect
it
will
then
attract
problematic
individuals
who
have
been
thrown
out
or
not
thrown
out,
but
the
other
gambling
establishments
are
closed
and
then
it
will
be
the
only
one
that
is
open
in
the
area
and
so
then
there's
a
higher
likelihood
of
it
attracting
and
problems
and
yeah.
And
that's
my
that's
my
objection.
C
Okay,
thank
you.
Do
I
have
any
questions
from
other
members
of
the
subcommittee.
C
In
which
case
I'll
I'll
ask
one
you,
you
say
that
you've
been
through
the
details
of
the
application
and
that
measures
taken
by
the
applicant
are
not
sufficient
to
address
crime
and
disorder.
Could
you
say
specifically
why
you
feel
that
there
is
a
failing
there
and
if
there
is
anything
that
they
could
do,
that
would
persuade
you
otherwise,
or
is
it
simply
that
there's
nothing
that
can
be
done
in
your
opinion.
C
E
Sorry
chair
can
I
can
I
just
check
with
with
sergeant
winster?
Are
you
putting
your
up
your
representation?
Is
it
on
behalf
of
west
yorkshire,
police,
or
is
it
in
your
own
capacity
just.
C
Yeah,
actually,
that's
just
reminded
me
in
the
documents
that
we've
been
supplied,
and
I
will
ask
this
back
of
the
applicant
in
due
course,
but
it
said
local
police
currently
liaising
with
local
police
licensing
team.
Now
I
appreciate
you're
not
part
of
the
licensing
team
you're,
the
ward
management
award
manager.
Anyway,
you
are
yeah.
C
Yeah,
so
have
you
been
consulted
by
the
police's
licensing
team
about
this,
or
is
it
that
your
your
objections
are
based
on
your
position
as
a
ward
manager.
I
Yeah
yeah
yeah
they're.
Basically,
yes,
my
my
primary
role
is
to
address
crime
and
only
social
behavior
in
the
area
and
that's
the
basis.
Okay,.
C
Thank
you
right
anything
else
for
this
witness,
no,
in
which
case
I
will
now
ask
the
council's
licensing
department
to
present
their
case.
Please.
H
Thank
you
chair.
I'm
aware
that
I'm
amongst
a
number
of
objectives
that
wish
to
speak
today.
My
representation
is
full
of
facts
and
figures
which
would
be
laborious
to
go
through,
and
so
I
don't
intend
to
rehearse
those
details
as
they're
available
from
every
story
during
the
deliberation.
H
However,
it's
those
facts
and
figures
that
leave
the
licensing
authority
in
its
role
as
a
responsible
authority
to
urge
the
committee
to
consider
if
granting
this
license
would
promote
the
licensing
objective
of
the
protection
of
children
and
vulnerable
people
as
detailed
in
my
representation.
This
premises
is
located
in
a
vulnerable
area
in
an
area
of
deprivation,
and
it's
highly
ranked
against
other
areas
in
need
for
problems
related
to
children
and
vulnerable
people.
H
H
The
evidence
refers
to
gamblers,
who
are
at
risk
and
who
are
experiencing
problem
with
gambling
and
describes
the
research
undertaken
by
leeds
becky
university
on
behalf
of
the
authority
in
2016,
which
identified
1.8
of
the
population.
In
these
three
problem
gamblers
and
a
further
five
to
six
percent
of
people
released
be
at
risk.
H
The
licensing
authority
believes
these
conditions
to
be
necessary,
reasonable
and
proportionate
and,
moreover,
in
keeping
with
those
conditions
already
offered
by
the
applicants,
so
I'll
just
quickly
go
through
them
number
one.
The
opening
hours
should
be
restricted
to
9am
to
10
pm
seven
days
a
week.
This
is
a
dense
residential
area
populated
with
vulnerable
people
and
children.
H
H
H
Members
should
consider
that
the
indicative
plans
show
around
30
seats
as
such.
It's
the
opinion
of
the
licensing
authority
that
premises
with
even
half
this
number
of
potential
customers
would
require
at
least
two
members
of
staff
to
be
able
to
supervise
the
customers,
identify
those
that
may
be
gaming
in
a
problematic
way
and
be
able
to
provide
brief
intervention.
H
H
This
is
specific
for
this
shop
in
this
area,
this
specific
area
is
deprived
and
already
suffers
from
the
anti-social
behavior
of
large
groups
of
people
gathering
in
the
street
to
drink
and
socialise.
My
colleagues,
my
more
the
more
members
will
describe
that
further.
Specifically,
there
is
enough
license
in
the
same
parade
of
shops,
which
attracts
such
groups.
H
We
then
have
two
conditions
which
relate
to
working
with
existing
organizations
who
connect
with
people
with
gambling,
addiction
and
money
concerns
number
four.
The
premises
license,
holder
and
staff
will
work
with
the
nhs
and
gum
care,
gambling,
clinics
and
debt
advice
agencies
in
need
to
receive
specific
training
on
problem
gambling
and
the
identification
of
vulnerable
people
and
five.
The
premises
license.
Holder
and
staff
will
maintain
links
with
the
nhs
and
gum
care
gathering,
clinics
and
debt
advice
agencies
and
provide
information
to
customers
and
referrals
where
appropriate.
H
We
believe
that,
linking
in
with
the
nhs
and
care
gambling
clinics
and
debt
advice,
services
will
provide
the
license
holder
with
local
information
on
vulnerable
people
that
will
enable
them
to
risk
assess
the
locality.
This
is
a
requirement
under
the
license
conditions
and
codes
of
practice,
and
the
current
risk
assessment
is
included
in
your
pack.
However,
keeping
us
up
to
date
is
important
and
will
be
much
aided
by
regular
contacts
and
links
with
the
gambling
clinics
and
debt
advice
agencies
and,
finally,
the
premises
license.
H
Holder
and
staff
will
support
local
schemes
and
initiatives
by
working
and
taking
an
active
role
on
the
hair
hills.
Town
team,
the
locals
community
team
war
councillors
and
residents
are
working
really
hard
to
resolve
issues
and
improve
this
area
of
leads,
which
has
been
an
area
of
concern
for
a
number
of
years.
H
I
very
much
appreciate
it
if
members
can
take
the
information
provided
by
the
licensing
authority
and
financial
inclusion
into
account
when
making
their
determination
and
to
consider
applying
these
six
conditions
if
they're
minded
to
grant
the
license.
Obviously
we
prefer
it
if
the
license
was
refused
we're
this
realistic
and
we're
aware
that
this
may
be
difficult.
H
A
So
yeah,
I
just
wanted
to
add
that,
although
the
applicant
has
stated
that
children
won't
be
attracted
to
the
bingo
premises,
and
I
would
also
echo
the
counselors
concerns
that
they
raised
earlier,
because
in
in
the
additional
report
that
we
submitted,
we've
provided
some
information
on
from
the
lead
school
survey
where
bingo
was
found
to
be
the
second
most
popular
form
of
gambling
among
secondary
age
pupils
and
20
of
the
children
that
had
gambled
had
taken
part
in
bingo.
A
C
Okay,
susan,
do
either
of
your
other
witnesses,
wish
to
put
any
comments
forward.
C
Right:
okay,
that's
fine!
As
I
said
earlier,
I'm
working
from
an
ipad,
so
I
have
limited
view
of
who's
online
at
any
one
time.
Okay,
to
my
colleagues
on
the
subcommittee
panel,
do
you
have
any
questions
for
either
susan
or
sophia
right?
I've
got
one
for
sophia.
You've
identified
the
fact
that
bingo
is
popular
with
chil
with
children
with
young
people.
C
How
are
they
accessing
it
within
leeds?
Obviously
we're
looking
at
the
potential
for
a
bingo
venue
which
you're
saying
we're
not
children
in
there's
going
to
be
a
desire,
perhaps
from
some
to
coming.
How
are
they
accessing
it
at
the
moment.
A
From
the
school
survey
and
we've
asked
the
question
on
whether
they
play
online
or
on
premises
or
with
their
families,
so
it's
we
think
primarily
it's
online,
but
the
fact
that
it's
still
popular
within
their
it's
on
their
agenda.
So,
if
they're
able
to
access
the
venue
the
issue
raised
earlier,
where
they
would
need
to
just
be
a
venue
to
check
the
age,
that's
that's
the
reason.
I
brought
that
point
in
consideration
yeah.
A
So,
although
in
the
school
survey
that
we
asked
the
question,
they
are
primarily
accessing
it
online,
but
with
their
parents
or
with
their
parents
permission,
so
it
may
be
in
some
venues
like
the
arcades
as
well.
C
Yeah,
okay,
thank
you
and
the
question
to
you,
susan
you've,
given
six
potential
additional
measures
that
you'd
like
us
to
consider
if
we're
minded
to
grant
and
obviously
I'll
be
asking
the
applicant
their
views
on
them.
C
However,
one
I'd
just
like
to
clarify
you've
said
condition:
two
no
single
manning
and
then
condition
three
to
have
an
sa
door
staff
would
if
we
were
minded-
and
we
wanted
to
apply
these-
could
that
door
staff
member
be
the
second
member
of
staff,
as
it
were,
because
you
were
saying
that
it
would
be
difficult
to
manage
the
property
with
one
member
of
staff
for
up
to
30
people.
C
H
Obviously,
we
would
prefer
team
members
of
staff
helping
customers
and
then
a
specific
person
minding
the
door
to
to
control
entry,
but
also
to
control.
What's
going
on
directly
outside
the
premises
as
well.
However,
it
needs
for
members
to
decide
if
that's
viable
or
reasonable.
C
Yeah,
okay,
I
was
just
clarifying
your
your
your
desire,
as
it
were.
That's
fine!
Okay!
If
there
any
no
other
questions
from
my
colleagues,
we
will
then
move
on
to
councillor
reagan
on
your
submission.
D
Thank
you.
As
I've
already
said,
my
name
is
councillor
denise
reagan,
I'm
the
ward
member
for
birmingham
richmond
hill
of
which
this
establishment
is
proposing
to
be
based,
and
I'm
also
the
the
chair
of
the
inner
east
committee,
and
I
have
also
lived
in
the
area
for
up
to
35
years.
So
I'm
I'm
pretty
well
equipped
to
have
knowledge
of
the
of
the
total
area.
D
I've
heard
from
so
many
local
residents
during
this
time
opposing
this
because
it's
as
we've
already
said
it's
an
area
of
of
high
deprivation.
It's
got
a
lot
of
new
migration
communities
coming
into
it.
It's
got
a
high
proportion
of
young
people
and
it's
got
a
lot
of
vulnerability
associated
to
it
on
first
glance
of
the
application
for
a
bingo
license.
D
This
looked
not
positive
in
the
sense
that
it
was
a
bingo,
but
it
it
was
indeed
maybe
a
a
place
where
people
could
socialize
and
and
and
look
at
that,
but
from
further
reading
the
application
in
more
detail.
I've
discovered
that
this
is
not
the
case,
and
I
think
it's
it's
it's
a
it's.
An
application
that
for
licensing
to
get
a
bingo
license
is
a
lot.
It
is
a
lot
less
stringent
than
getting
a
a
more
detailed
license
for
for
gaming,
as
officers
have
shared.
D
This
area
is
one
of
the
most
deprived
areas
in
leeds
which
I've
clearly
said,
with
several
streets
nearby,
the
premises
coming
in
as
the
one
percent
deprived
areas
in
the
city
in
in
the
country
regarding
to
the
multiple
indices
of
deprivation,
so
that-
and
this
includes
the
comptons
which
are
directly
opposite
there,
and
it's
also
got
the
cliftons
and
noels,
which
is
a
priority
area
for
the
council
at
the
moment,
where
we're
dealing
with
six
local
areas
of
deprivation
and
unemployment
and
all
the
rest
of
it,
and
it's
also
got
the
campers
which
fall
into
my
colleagues
ward
and
she
will
she'll
go
into
detail
of
that
later
on
residents
on
this
on
these
streets.
D
That
I've
mentioned
already
face
huge
problems
and
challenges,
because
they've
got
unemployment,
they've
got
poverty,
they've
got
education
and
health
issues
where
the
kids
are
not
attending
educational
attainment.
You
know
and
they're
not
actually
going
to
school,
because
they're
provided
and
distracted
by
other
issues,
and
I
feel
that
this
particular
gaming
establishment
will
will
will
contribute
to
that
because
it'll
in
in
entice
children
away
from
their
their
schooling.
D
I
think
it
also
is
where
I
see
no
way
in
which
these
proposed
premises
would
do
anything
that
exacerbate
these
issues
for
vulnerable
people
and
it'll
include
more
vulnerable
people
when
they've
got
into
the
habit
of
gambling,
because
at
the
minute
yeah
we've
got
people
in
that
particular
area
that
are
struggling
to
feed
themselves
and
feed
their
families
and
heat
their
premises.
D
One
such
example
of
these
individuals
will
congregate.
Yeah
we've
got
lots
of
people
that
are
congregating
in
and
around
that
particular
area
of
harrell's
lane
involved
in
in
street
drinking
and
where
we
we've,
we've
just
set
up
a
multi-agency
approach
to
try
and
tackle
that
to
support
vulnerable
residents.
So
I
think
that
would
that
would
really
engage
in
that
and
it
would,
it
would
make
it
even
worse.
D
D
I'd
just
like
to
finish
with
some
quotes
from
local
residents,
which
have
approached
me.
One
of
them
have
said
another
betting
shop
is
not
what
the
area
needs.
It
will
attract
gatherings
of
drinkers
to
that
corner
with
all
the
insulin,
anti-social,
behaviors,
not
good
for
local
people
and
children
who
will
have
to
navigate
through
when
going
to
the
library
nursery
park
or
doctors.
D
Another
one
have
said
no,
no,
no
to
this
planning
application.
There
are
already
two
betting
shops
in
hurdles
and
they
cause
enough
problems
and,
finally,
exactly
not
what
this
area
is
needed,
and
I
think
you
know
to
finish:
we
we
stand
firmly
with
our
local
residents
and
businesses
and
partners
against
supplic
application,
and
I
now
like
to
call
him
my
two
witnesses,
christina
and
donna
to
to
add
to
that.
So
thank.
B
A
Good
morning
I'm
christina
giorgio.
We
have
an
established
business
on
hurdles,
lane
we've
been
there
since
1984,
so
we
know
the
area
pretty
well
and
the
locals
and
other
business
users.
We
say
a
new
arcade
would
encourage
crime
and
feed
addiction
and
could
put
young
and
vulnerable
people
already
in
a
struggling
deprived
area
at
more
risk,
and
it
would
offer
no
benefit
whatsoever.
A
A
People
of
all
ages
should
remain
alert
to
the
fact
that
gambling
can
be
highly
addictive
and
extremely
damaging,
not
only
to
individuals
but
also
to
their
families
and
entire
communities.
I
am
really
against
this.
As
a
business
owner,
I
urge
you
all
to
think
with
caution.
Does
havels
and
its
people
really
deserve
this?
Thank
you
for.
C
The
other
witness
can
you
hear
me.
J
Yeah
sorry,
first
time,
zooming
on
a
laptop,
I
don't
know
hi
good
morning.
My
name
is
donna
and
thank
you
for
the
opportunity
to
speak
and
I
was
vegan
on
behalf
of
the
residents
of
berman's
austin,
richmond
hill,
I'm
a
resident
of
the
knowles
part
of
a
residence
group
and
we
volunteer
our
time
to
help
the
youth
of
the
area
and
possibly
access
opportunities
that
they're,
possibly
not
aware
of,
and
when
we're
able
we
use
the
community.
J
We
open
that
to
the
youth,
I'm
not
going
to
waste
any
time
trying
to
pick
holes
in
the
bed.
It's
been
thousands
and
thousands
of
pounds
of
billable
hours
to
make
sure
that
all
the
body
ticks.
You
know
crossing
the
t's
got
in
the
eyes,
but
I
am
speaking
as
a
resident
and
a
parent
and
a
apparently
the
desire
that
our
voice
heard
harold's
is
a
very
transient.
Community
research
problems
arise,
the
people
involved,
move
on
and
the
issues
swept
under.
J
J
Why
would
another
gambling
hinder
us
one
of
my
colleagues
friends
and
said
we
have
a
problem
with
boredom
in
the
area
from
children
all
the
way
up
to
adults,
and
you
can
add
in
frustration
as
well.
A
slot
machine
hall
throughout
bingo
hall
seems
like
a
really
innocent
way,
spend
a
few
hours
to
entertain
yourself
artillery
swift
for
a
little
bit,
but
they
have
been
shown
to
be
addictive
and
soon
those
innocent
couple
of
hours
becomes
a
need
and
more
than
a
couple
of
hours.
J
J
J
J
There
are
plenty
of
websites,
this
kind
of
gambling.
It
doesn't
need
to
be
placed
in
the
heart
of
the
community.
Where
game
is
an
issue,
it
would
encourage
possibly
groups
dealers
to
use
the
premises
as
a
base
for
other
activities.
J
We
can't
watch
everything
every
two
minutes
and
it
can
also
be
a
way
of
money
laundering
passing
on
possible
illegal
earnings
as
a
way
of
winnings,
and
it
will
support
another
person,
promote
misery
and
create
further
poverty
in
the
area.
People
will
spend
what
money
they
have
and
then
the
rates
of
theft
and
antisocial
behavior
will
increase
it's
encouraging
misery
in
heralds,
not
positivity.
J
Just
like
to
reiterate
what
denise
sorry
council
reagan
was
saying
at
the
top
of
this
particular
road.
We
have
a
24
hour
licensed
or
off
license,
which
is
constantly
having
issues.
I
mean
the
cell
boos
through
the
hatch
at
three
o'clock
in
the
morning.
What
does
that
say
to
you
about
the
area
that
it's
in
then
the
meeting
point
kathy?
You
know
the
church
recognizes
an
issue.
J
We
as
a
housing
advisory
panel
are
funding
outreach
workers
to
actually
engage
with
the
addicts,
be
it
gambling,
drugs
or
alcohol.
J
We're
encouraging
them
to
use
the
meeting
point
cafe
we're
encouraging
them
to
look
at
other
options
that
they
have
in
life
and
then
two
dollars
down.
We
say:
oh,
look:
here's
a
new
shiny,
little
bauble!
This
is
gambling.
Look
what
it
could
do
for
you.
It's
a
complete
slap
in
the
face.
We're
going
one
step
forward,
we're
taking
five
steps
back
you're,
always
going
to
have
your
hardcore
gamblers
chasing
the
next
big
fix
chasing
the
one.
That's
going
to
pay
the
rent.
J
That's
going
to
do
this,
that
or
the
other,
but
at
the
end
of
the
day,
all
the
gambling
balls
down
to
the
fact.
Are
they
going
to
have
the
money
to
pay
the
kids?
You
need
to
pay
food
to
put
food
on
the
table
to
pay
the
rent
to
keep
a
roof
over
the
head.
We
are
talking
people
that
gamble
their
last
pound,
because
this
would
be
the
one.
This
is
the
one
where
it
drops
we're
not
talking
about
a
bingo
hall
where
he
little
blue
rings.
J
J
It's
straightforward
slot
machine
gambling,
it's
not
encouraging
communication,
interpersonal
skills
or
any
sense
of
community,
and
my
next
main
concern
is
the
children
they
are
primed.
They
play
in
the
xboxes
they're
playing
the
playstation.
It's
another
click,
it's
another
99p
for
these
roblox.
Whatever
this
is
the
next
generation
of
addicts
they.
This
is
the
future,
we're
just
dangling
the
carrot
in
front
of
them
as
the
next
quick
fix.
We
need
an
increase
in
life
skills.
J
We
need
interaction,
we
need
interpersonal
skills,
so
please
counselors
when
you're,
considering
this
application,
please
think
about
the
people
that
live
here.
Please
think
about
the
children
growing
up
here
and
the
future
generations.
Someone
somewhere
has
to
take
ownership
say
enough.
Is
enough,
encourage
people
to
dream
not
to
just
think?
How
do
I
get
past
this
next
day
to
aspire
to
love
where
they
live?
We've
got
amazing
architecture.
We've
got
the
facilities,
we've
got
the
location,
we
want
them
to
take
pride,
not
just
exist.
C
Thank
you,
okay,
thank
you.
Do
we
have
any
questions
for
councillor
reagan
or
christina
or
no,
oh
donna
from
the
panel?
C
B
C
C
In
that
case,
I
now
ask
councillor
arif
to
for
give
us
her
submission
her
objections.
Please.
A
Thank
you,
council
dance.
Thank
you,
chair
and,
first
of
all,
just
want
to
say
thank
you
to
donna
for
that
for
that
representation.
Thank
you
very
much.
I
know
donna
karen
christina
you've
taken
time
off
work
to
be
here
today
and
that
matters,
and
so
I'm
council
salma
arif
now
just
for
context,
and
I
was
actually
born
in
the
norwales.
I've
lived
on
hair
hills
lane
for
30
years
of
my
life,
so
I
I
know
the
area
and
it's
a
known
and
a
privilege
to
now
represent
the
people
of
hair
hills.
A
A
As
a
ward
council
representing
hair
hills,
it
is
vital
that
I
articulate
the
scale
of
the
opposition.
There
is
to
this
bingo
license
application.
I'm
speaking
on
behalf
of
my
ward
colleagues,
and
we
stand
in
unison
with
our
colleagues
representing
birmingham
richmond
hill,
as
officers
of
officers
have
already
shared.
There
are
a
number
of
reasons
why
this
proposed
site
is
both
unnecessary
and
would
put
vulnerable
individuals
at
risk
in
both
of
our
wards,
and
so
this
application
has
come
from
the
geiselman
group.
A
A
The
applicant
already
has
five
premises
in
leeds
there's:
murka
kashino
in
amli
on
town
street,
there's
merca
cashino
in
bramley
center
there's
murky,
cashino
in
morley,
milton
house,
there's,
murker
casino
city
center
as
well,
and
finally,
just
up
the
road,
there's
mercur,
casino
and
cross
gates
on
thorpe
road.
Now,
for
anybody
who
knows
leeds
they'll
know
what
do
these
five
locations
hamming
have
in
common
well
they're
in
parts
of
the
more
deprived
areas
in
leeds?
A
This
begs
the
question
is
the
business
model
to
open
market
slots
in
deprived
areas,
a
demographic
that
has
perhaps
targets
the
most
vulnerable
in
our
society?
Okay,
let's
start
with
the
location
of
the
proposed
premise.
Although
the
location
is
technically
located
in
my
colleague's
ward
of
birmingham
richmond
hill,
it
is
also,
but
it
also
borders
the
world.
I
represent
as
a
local
councillor.
A
I
have
deep
concerns
about
the
knock-on
effect.
The
premise
this
premise
would
have.
This
is
in
a
neighborhood
that
has
residents
facing
some
of
the
most
severe
social
and
economic
challenges
in
the
uk,
complex
challenges
that
have
been
exacerbated
by
the
kobe
19
pandemic
members
members.
There
is
a
reason
why
this
area
has
a
in
place
a
public
space
protection
order,
pspo
and
accumulative
impact
policy,
both
of
which
have
come
into
place
after
lengthy
lobbying
and
legal
processes,
but
very
much
needed
to
tackle
the
existing
problems
in
this
area.
A
The
area
covered
by
this
application
is
one
that
has
seized
many
residents,
particularly
children
and
young
people
in
challenging
circumstances,
and
this
has
been
outlined
by
sewell
earlier.
So
I
won't
repeat
the
statistics,
but
as
lead
member
for
charlton
leads.
The
risk
to
children,
which
I
will
touch
on
later,
is
a
particular
concern
for
me.
It's
also
worth
pointing
out.
There
are
two
primary
schools
located
within
just
550
meters
of
the
proposed
site,
as
well
as
several
other
schools
located
within
a
kilometer
of
the
proposed
location.
A
There
is
a
school
uniform
shop,
joe
brand,
and
just
literally
a
few
shops
away
further,
exposing
young
kids,
these
sorts
of
environments
surrounding
them
from
all
sides,
I'm
not
sure,
placing
a
betting
betting
premises
in
the
heart
of
a
heavily
populated
residential
area
is
being
respectful
of
the
community
within
half
a
mile
radius.
You
have
a
number
of
gambling
premises,
including
two
bed:
threads,
four,
william
hills,
a
paddy
power,
a
lad,
brooks
and
a
coral
bookies
of
which
many
have
faced.
A
Issues
related
to
antisocial,
behavior,
drug
use,
street
drinking
making
life
difficult
for
red
residents
in
an
already
hard
to
live
area
and
put
further
strain
on
the
police
force
for
which
residents
are
already
aware
of
and
find
it
difficult
to
deal
with
with
the
existing
level
of
issues,
which
is
why
a
lot
of
this
crime
does
actually
go.
Unreported
granting
of
this
application
would
exasperate
existing
issues
by
supplying
an
opportunity
for
problem
gambling
or
gambling
addiction
to
take
hold
in
the
area
already
saturated
with
betting
shops.
A
A
I
was
also
distressed
to
be
made
aware
of
a
several
recent
example
of
young
people
with
gambling
edition
addiction
issues
that
are
currently
going
through
the
youth
justice
service.
A
number
of
young
young
people
15
to
17
year
olds,
have
reported
that
they
have.
They
had
been
able
to
access
the
shops
to
either
bet
or
use
gambling
gaming
machines,
both
on
hair
hills,
lane
and
other
nearby
shops.
A
They
were
borrowing
finance.
They
were
borrowing
to
finance
this
and
then
committing
offences
to
service
this
debt.
These
offences
tend
to
be
robbery
in
nature
and
often
involve
some
degree
of
violence
and
weapons.
A
Now
members,
the
applicant's
representative
has
pointed
a
peaceful
picture
of
a
very
low
footfall
and
a
handful
of
people
or
ladies
sipping
teas.
Now
respectfully.
If
that
was
the
intention,
then
the
applicant
ought
to
open
a
tea
shop,
not
a
betting
shop
in
a
deprived
area
that
has
a
high
ratio
of
vulnerable
people
has
crime
and
disorder.
A
That
is
no.
That
is
on
a
well
trodden
school
route
that
there
is
a
high
prevalence
of
teenage
gambling
and
that
this
is
particularly
an
improvised
area.
Despite
what
the
applicant
wants
you
to
believe.
Sadly,
this
show
will
not
only
be
a
leisurely
activity.
It
really
seldom
is
members
I'll
finish
on
this
and
I'll
with
one
question
really.
Can
we
afford
to
gamble
with
the
future
of
our
children?
C
Thank
you
councillor
arif,
do
either
of
my
colleagues
on
the
panel
have
any
questions.
I'd
like
to
ask
councillor
arif.
B
I
do
actually
cherish
that.
Yes,
okay,
sir
counselor,
with
your
knowledge
and
experience
of
of
the
area
of
the
demographics
of
the
area
with
you
know
the
the
deprivation
et
cetera,
et
cetera
with
it
within
that
area.
B
A
Yeah,
if
I'm
really
really
honest,
you
know
respectfully,
I
I
do
think
you
know
there
are.
You
know,
brilliant
things
that
the
applicant
wants
to
put
in
place.
It
just
will
not
work
in
hair
hills.
We
are
over
subscribed
with
the
issues
that
we've
got
despite
their
best
efforts,
which
I
you
know,
I'm
sure
you
know
that
they
will
put
efforts
in
and
will
train
their
staff
and
it
just
simply,
in
my
opinion,
knowing
the
area
the
way
I
know
it,
it
will
exasperate
the
problem.
A
C
Okay
right,
thank
you
councillor
eric.
We
now
move
on
to
karen
harris.
If
you'd
like
to
list
your
objections
for
us,
please
thank
you.
K
Thank
you
and
again
I
I
completely
conquer
with
the
what's
being
said
by
donna
and
salma,
and
I've
lived
in
harehills
for
30
years
now.
K
I
came
here
when
I
was
23
years
old
and
I've
also
worked
in
the
area
for
quite
some
of
that
time,
and
I've
also
worked
for
neighborhood
network
schemes
with
which
support
older
people
and
in
in
and
around
leads
I've
got
numbers
I
base
the
the
numbering
is
based
on
the
additional
information
document
that
was
sent
so
first
I'd
like
to
just
make
it
really
clear
that
I
view
young
people
as
two
distinct
groups.
K
Page
43
talks
about
being
within
easy
reach,
as
if
it's
a
good
thing,
proximity
to
vulnerable
people
is
not
a
good
thing
in
hair
hills,
it's
not
an
affluent
area
and
it
is
densely
populated,
constant
bingo
from
9
till
midnight
can
only
be
seen
to
have
an
adverse
impact
on
the
many
people
who
live
in
close
proximity
to
that
area.
We
have
to
remember
that
it's
highly
residential,
yes,
there
are
high
streets,
but
unusually,
they
are
surrounded
by
people
living
above
and
around
and
behind.
K
Despite
most
existing
facilities,
closing
at
10
resultant
noise
still
has
an
adverse
effect
on
young
children
who
need
to
be
able
to
get
good
night's
sleep
before
school.
It
states
that
an
average
steak
is
between
30
to
40
pence.
This
encourages
sport
with
even
very
little
money
to
gamble
away
what
they
can
afford
to
lose.
Whilst
it
may
not
seem
like
a
lot
to
lose
for
people
here,
may
I
point
out
that
many
folk
in
this
area
are
living
in
poverty.
They
rely
on
meters
for
their
electricity.
K
K
There
are
many
unregistered
letters
in
the
area
with
cash
in
hand,
deals
being
made
with
less
scrupulous
landlords.
Therefore,
it
is
not
unusual
for
entire
families
to
get
around
not
having
the
rent
by
flitting
from
one
rental
house
to
another,
rather
than
curbing
any
habit
of
gambling
their
rent
money
away.
This
means
that
children
are
subjected
to
unstable
and
stressful
lives,
with
all
the
attendant
issues
that
that
then
brings.
K
You
say
that
venues
appeal
to
it
to
all
ages,
but
will
ask
if
anyone
looks
under
25
to
show
id
hair
hills.
Has
a
population
of
33
000
in
a
two
square
miles
with
one
of
the
highest
percentages
of
under
25s,
and
these
stakes
allow
young
people
to
spend
pocket
money
and
lunch
money.
K
It
says
that
you
provide
complete
complementary
refreshments,
teas
and
coffees
to
customers
and
staff
will
not
allow
people
on
who
appear
to
be
intoxicated
and
that's
the
thing.
Often
people
can
be
intoxicated
but
not
appear
to
be
that's
very
difficult
call
to
make.
We
know
from
existing
gambling
outlets
that
people
will
drink
outside
and
it
is
a
big
worry
that
there
are
relatively
large
open
spaces
at
the
corner,
where
there
are
two
crossings
that
passerby's
need
to
use.
K
So
it's
that
compton
road
and
hills
lane
corner
and
that
they
would
have
to
negotiate
through
any
congregations
of
people.
There
there's
also
cut
through
between
where
the
jaw
blank
brand
shop
is
and
the
parade
that
the
gambling
and
gilchrists
is
and
it
cuts
through,
and
that's
already
had
lots
of
attendant
anti-social
behaviors
and
it's
a
real
worry
that
that
will
just
become
like
an
open,
latrine
and
then
also
there's
the
car
park
at
the
back.
K
K
And
you
say
that
your
appeal
is
52
mail
to
48
women
and
that
they'll
be
self-help
tools.
You
say
that
you
increase
the
the
increased
footfall
will
be
beneficial
to
the
high
high
street.
This
is
not
an
issue.
Hair
hills
has
a
thriving
high
street
to
which
the
major
inhibitor
is
already
the
congregation
of
con
customers
outside
existing
gambling
shops
and
parking
is
already
a
problem.
You
say
that
you
will
create
local
jobs
about
six
to
twelve
people
depending
on
the
hours
of
operation.
K
Presumably
some
of
these
will
be
managers.
Are
you
saying
that
at
least
some
of
these
jobs
will
offer
managerial
opportunities
for
local
people?
What
actual
posts
do
you
envisage
local
people?
Getting
hair
hills
has
36.4
economically
inactive
population.
We
do
not
feel
that
six
jobs
will
offset
the
negative
effects
that
this
enterprise
would
bring
to
the
area.
K
On
page
56,
you
say
that
61
of
the
staff
are
female.
Many
women
in
hair
hills
report
total
lack
of
confidence
in
walking
around
the
area,
especially
at
night.
How
would
any
female
staff
be
kept
safe?
You
say
you
will
provide
important
natural
surveillance.
We
already
have
surveillance.
Local
people
are
sadly
very
well
aware
of
where
the
anti-social
behavior
occurs,
but
sadly,
surveillance
does
not
necessarily
guarantee
that
the
issues
are
satisfactory.
Dealt
with
on
your
plan.
You
have
one
unisex,
toilet
and
26
possible
gambling
stations.
K
K
K
You
refer
to
beacon,
bingo
cricklewood
in
europe,
which
is
24
hours,
2,
700
capacity,
three
bars
two
restaurants
and
a
large
smoking
area.
The
site
has
been
a
family
baker's,
small
cafe,
based
and
it
equates
to
two
high
street
terrace
shops.
What
are
your
future
plans
here?
Is
her
hills
is
already
struggling
as
a
destination
for
people
seeking
cheap
alcohol
and
drugs,
as
testified
by
the
police.
We
already
have
issues
of
parking
congestion
due
to
access
to
st
james
hospital
through
traffic
to
the
city
centre.
K
Any
larger
outlet
would
be
deeply
inappropriate
and
this
application
must
not
be
seen
as
a
foothold
for
greater
development.
Page
60.
We
talk
about
gambling,
commission's
statement,
regulatory
risk
management,
gambling
compliance
charitable
charitable
donations
and
a
few
self-fair
used
apps
will
not
negate
the
damage
done
to
young
folk
drawn
into
gambling.
K
You
claim
that
there
will
be
linked
trips,
helping
support
other
businesses,
another
you're,
saying
that
people
are
going
to
come
into
gamble
and
then
go
and
do
a
bit
of
shopping.
We
believe
that
the
only
businesses
this
will
further
support
are
the
nearby
off
licences.
K
We
have
precedent
for
this
as
it's
exactly
what
happens
outside
betfred,
on
hair
hills,
road
and
betfred,
and
paddy
power
on
hair
hills
lane.
In
fact,
given
that
there
is
a
high
likelihood
of
people
starting
to
gather
outside
the
cut-through,
that
leads
from
hair
hills
lane
to
the
bell
route
car
parking
facility,
it
is
likely
that
actual
shoppers
heading
to
the
lane
will
be
put
off
or
fearful
of
leaving
their
cars.
If
they
start
passing
through
groups
of
standing
people,
you
highlight
g-tab,
bingo
and
other
electronic
multimedia
ways
to
access
bingo.
K
It
points
to
the
main
target
being
younger
people.
There
aren't
many
of
the
old
people
that
I've
worked
with
in
the
last
10
years,
who
are
that
or
fair
with
that
kind
of
equipment?
It's
very
high
tech,
low
stakes
also
encourage
young
people
to
spend
pocket
money.
You
highlight
lucky
charm,
with
20p
50p
one
pound
sticks
to
a
maximum
of
four
pound
per
game,
but
there's
nothing
about
the
restriction
on
the
number
of
games.
K
I
see
this
is
doubly
negative
as
it
will
either
allow
people
with
very
little
money
to
play
with
what
little
they
have
or
for
those
who
have
a
bit
more
money
to
play
on
until
they
are
totally
spent
up
either
way.
This
is
encouraging
those
who
can
least
afford
it
to
fritter
away
their
money.
K
You
even
have
low
stake
games
from
5p
to
a
maximum
of
a
pound
per
game,
but
again
no
limit
on
the
number
of
games.
Many
of
these
games
interfaces
are
clearly
aimed
at
young
people
and
what
may
be
presented
as
an
innocuous
game
of
bingo
or
computer
game
can
effectively
draw
people
into
bigger
stakes,
gambling
and
into
desperate
gambling
addictions.
K
Then
they
follow
us.
The
section
with
all
the
principles
applied
license
or
foreign
authorities
licensing
should
take
account
protecting
children
absolutely
and,
as
I've
pointed
out
this
site
is
the
site
is
right
at
the
heart
of
a
civic
area,
with
libraries,
nurseries,
health
clinics
and
routes
to
several
schools
and
a
park
preventing
gambling
being
a
source
of
crime.
The
area
already
is
already
noted,
for
particular
problems
with
disorder.
Organized
criminal
activity
is
right
and
the
police
already
struggle
to
address
this.
There
is
a
likelihood
of
serious
disruptive,
anti-social
behavior
that
will
impact
local
residents.
K
It
will
be
more
than
a
mere
nuisance.
There
have
been
stabbings
attacks,
assaults
and
numerous
police
call
outs.
There
is
issues
with
young
people
15
to
25
year
olds,
congregating
and
causing
issues,
and
sadly,
there
have
been
several
stabbings
amongst
these
age
groups.
The
issues
in
hair
hills
are
around
congregation
of
drinkers,
etc,
who
take
over
areas
outside
focus
points
like
gambling
premises
and
empty
spaces.
Communities
and
police
have
been
liaising
for
decades
through
various
means,
including
the
pac
meetings,
but
this
has
never
managed
to
free
the
area
of
its
ongoing
issues.
K
Protecting
children
and
other
vulnerable
persons
could
staff
adequately
supervise
the
gambling
presence.
The
police,
with
their
powers,
have
trouble
keeping
order.
Hair
hills
had
a
banning
order
on
fireworks
this
year,
but
still
in
as
in
previous
years,
young
people
were
able
to
get
hold
of
this
stuff.
Despite
the
age
restrictions
positioning
as
a
disaster
for
any
attempts
to
improve
the
streets
seen
in
existing
anti-social
issues,
hair
hills
has
more
than
the
average
number
of
vulnerable
adults
due
to
cheap
available.
Not
too
many
questions.
That's
renting.
K
We
have
higher
levels
of
people
who
have
drug
alcohol
and
gambling
addictions,
mental
health
issues
and
long-term
chronic
health
conditions
all
contrived
to
make
people
who
often
find
themselves
lonely
being
drawn
into
groups
and
situations
that
are
not
good
for
their
safety,
well-being
or
recovery.
The
area
is
also
used
to
house
many
people
who
are
under
supervision
or
serving
out
probation
terms.
We
also
have
significant
rates
of
serious
domestic
violence,
and
it
is
acknowledged
that
worries
around
finances
is
a
major
contributor,
good
practice
and
regulation.
K
It's
irrelevant
to
residents
how
many
regulations
have
been
tick-boxed
resultant
anti-social
behavior
that
has
immediate
negative
impact
on
local
residents,
can
sometimes
take
years
to
address
crime.
Stats
show
that
betting
and
gambling
present
premises
are
always
either
the
greatest
or
amongst
the
greatest
when
it
comes
to
gambling
in
the
whole
city.
K
People
in
hair,
hills,
first
and
foremost,
just
want
a
basic
human
right
to
live
in
a
healthy,
safe
environment
where
their
children
are
free
from
negative
influence.
Many
families
have
fled
countries
where
serious
human
rights
abuses
have
been
committed
against
them.
It
is
often
said
with
derision
that
anything
goes
in
hair
hills.
K
We
as
a
long
suffering
residents
who
have
watched
been
directly
affected
by
the
area,
declining
combined
activities
of
licensed
premises
and
gambling
outlets
have
no
confidence
that
supposed
conditions
have
any
positive
effect
upon
the
anti-social
behaviour
that
has
dragged
the
area
down
and
caused
those
who
live
here,
such
ongoes
in
growing
misery.
K
The
objections
are
not
moral
or
ethical
or
based
on
general
notion
that
gambling
is
undesirable.
They
are
based
on
the
sorrowful
experience
of
the
associated
anti-social
behaviors
that
are
fueled
by
existing
licensed
and
gambling
outlets.
They
are
in
the
testimony
of
the
women
who
do
who
dare
not
walk
through
crowds
of
drunken
lascivious
men
who
spend
their
days
and
nights
gathered
outside
existing
outlets.
They
are
etched
on
the
pavements
of
the
local
high
streets
in
vomit,
urine
and
feces.
K
They
are
written
on
the
faces
of
small
children
who
witness
things
that
no
children
should
see
on
their
way
to
school
or
nursery,
or
the
tired
faces
of
old
children
kept
awake
by
noise
outside
their
homes.
They
are
in
the
police,
crime
statistics
that
show
many
incidents
related
either
to
hanging
around
premises
or
muggings
as
desperate
desperate
people
seek
to
get
the
money
to
feed
their
addictions.
K
Guildcrist's
was
a
much-loved
family
bakery
and
cafe.
It
served
the
area
for
decades,
it's
located
in
a
significant
gateway,
one
of
hair,
hill's
main
high
streets
adjacent
to
the
local
library.
The
nursery
as
I've
said
bell.
Group
surgery
is
also
a
route
to
nightingale
primary
school
shakespeare,
high
school
and
a
local
park.
There
is
also
a
school
uniform
shop
less
than
a
few
units
away.
We
would,
we
would
have
hoped
for
much
more
positive
development
of
this
newly
vacant
premises.
K
That
would
help
to
lift
the
area
rather
than
compound
already
negative
issues
and
perceptions
and
final
bit.
There
are
340
000
problem
gamblers
in
the
uk.
10
000
are
in
leeds.
There
is
real
poverty
in
hair
hills,
not
just
in
financial
terms,
but
in
terms
of
mental
health,
well-being,
education
and
aspiration.
K
This
is
exactly
the
area
that
is
seen
as
a
soft
target
where
people
who
are
prone
to
advertising
and
less
able
to
read
the
small
prints.
Many
people
are
paid
cash
in
hand
and
less
able
to,
and
and
do
not
despite,
myths,
have
access
to
benefits.
K
C
I
think
there's
a
very
comprehensive
submission.
Thank
you,
karen
okay,
we
now
move
back
to
the
applicant
to
respond
to
the
issues
that
have
been
raised
by
the
objectors.
Could
I
just
check
with
officers
how
much
time
is
left
on
the
20
minutes
from
before.
A
A
Downs,
it's
natasha
governance,
the
applicant.
C
Okay,
so
just
to
hand
back
over
to
you,
mr
colvin,
you
have
nine
minutes
left
to
do
your
best
to
address
the
concerns
raised,
but
that
doesn't
mean
that
the
panel
won't
be
asking
you
further
questions
after
that.
G
Okay,
so
I'm
going
to
try
my
very
best
to
deal
with
this
in
nine
minutes,
but
I've
been
scrawling
away
for
an
hour
and
a
half
and
I'm
afraid
I
may
stray
over,
but
I'm
certainly
not
going
to
stray
over
by
much
can
I
just
say
I
mean
listening
to
all
these
local
people.
It's
it's
impossible
not
to
admire
hugely
their
voices
and
their
their
local
knowledge
and
their
local
passion.
So
whatever
I
say
here,
I
don't
want
it
to
sound
sort
of
preachy
or
finger
wagging
or
or
anything
of
that
sort.
G
This
is
a
regulatory
hearing
which
has
to
be
considered
on
the
evidence
and
much
of
what
we've
heard
is
about
fear
of
what
might
be
if
this
license
is
granted
and
what
we've
provided
to.
You
is
a
huge
amount
of
evidence
as
about
what
is
not
just
nationally
but
locally
and
one
of
the
witnesses.
I
think
it
was
councillor
arif
pointed
to
an
allegation
that
all
five
of
my
clients
existing
premises
were
in
deprived
areas
of
leads.
G
G
Not
only
do
they
not
have
any
evidence,
but
you
have
heard
from
responsible
authorities,
one
of
whom
have
actually
visited
my
clients,
other
premises
and
who
have
access
to
all
the
data,
all
the
records
about
whether
any
of
these
fears
have
been
realized
in
practice,
and
the
answer
is
they
have
not,
and
I
say
that
very
firmly
on
the
evidence.
There
is
no
evidence
that
my
client's
premises
will
bring
the
kind
of
issues
which
have
been
suggested.
My
clients,
other
premises,
have
no
conditions
on
them.
G
But
here
my
client
is
bringing
35
conditions
in
deference
to
the
issues
which
people
fear
and
it
commonly
happens
that
these
fears
are
expressed
and
when
my
client
opens
its
premises,
those
fears
disappear.
It
has
never
suffered
a
review.
The
licensed
betting
officers
are
said
to
be
a
source
of
crime.
Well,
they
also
trade
without
conditions.
But
what
seems
remarkable
to
me
as
a
licensing
regulatory
lawyer
is
that
these
problems
are
being
expressed
about
local
licensed
premises
and
there
hasn't
been
a
review.
G
And
maybe
there
should
be.
I
don't
want
to
advocate
that,
but
if
none
of
these
premises
have
even
merited
a
review,
why
would
you
be
closing
your
doors
on
a
further
licensed
premises
and
actually
what
this
act
requires
you
to
do
is
not
to
close
your
door,
but,
as
patterson's
puts
it
aim
to
permit
by
taking
an
imaginative
approach
to
frame
conditions
so
as
to
reply
to
legitimate
concerns
which
have
been
expressed.
G
G
We
heard
from
sergeant
winster
and
he
visited
client's
premises
elsewhere
found
they
were
well
managed
and
has
reported
to
you
precisely
nothing
about
crime
and
disorder
issues
arising
in
those
premises
and
yet
you're
being
asked
to
accept
that
these
premises
would
be
some
hotbed
of
crime
and
disorder
when
in
fact,
empirically,
you
know
that
my
client's
premises
elsewhere
or
are
not.
He
also
refers,
as
did
a
number
of
witnesses,
to
the
existence
of
24
hour
off
licenses.
G
Well,
then
you've
got
an
issue
there
and
in
accordance
with
your
vision,
for
hair
hills
deal
with
that
issue,
but
when
it
comes
to
the
aim
to
permit
provided
the
regulatory
tests
are
met,
that
is
a
side
issue
and
it's
not
a
reason
to
stop
a
further
gambling
establishment,
particularly
when
nothing
has
apparently
been
done
about
the
gambling
establishments
which
you
have.
I
will
come
back
and
deal
with
the
conditions
which
have
been
suggested
in
just
a
second
miss
ditter
referred
to
the
proclivity
to
play
bingo
amongst
children.
G
Actually,
if
you
look
at
the
data
on
page
328,
the
proclivity
is
in
children
under
the
age
of
16.,
the
data
about
children
over
the
age
of
16,
bingo
doesn't
figure
at
all.
I
think
what's
happening
and
you
ask
the
question,
sir,
is
that
kids
are
getting
hold
of
scratch
cards
which
are
being
brought
by
their
older,
siblings
or
their
even
their
parents.
This
is
nothing
whatsoever
to
do
with
my
client.
G
G
G
She
refers
to
street
drinking
I've
dealt
with
street
drinking.
If
that's
an
issue
in
hair
hills,
it
needs
to
be
dealt
with,
but
it's
not
going
to
be
dealt
with
by
refusing
a
bingo
application
when
there
is
no
evidence
from
180
premises
that
they
attract
street
drinkers.
Even
in
areas
where
there
are
street
drinkers.
G
Various
witnesses
referred
to
planning
matters
which
are
simply
irrelevant
whether
guild
chris
was
nice
or
not
nice.
Whether
this
is
according
to
the
vision
and
all
of
those
sorts
of
questions
I
pass
over
quickly.
Your
planners
have
looked
at
this,
and,
incidentally,
they've
granted
planning
permission,
but
it's
not
relevant
to
your
consideration.
G
Oh,
there
was
a
point
made
by
donna
who
did
make
a
very
if
I
can
just
pay
her
tribute
made
made
a
very
passionate
and
and
heartfelt
address
as
to
why
this
should
not
be
permitted.
But
one
of
her
problems
was
that
there
would
be
drug
dealing
happening
in
the
premises.
It
would
be
about
the
worst
place
in
hair
hills
to
deal
drugs,
because
it's
under
cctv
you'd
never
be
more
than
a
few
meters
from
a
staff
member
and
you
can't
hide
in
a
crowd
because
there
is
no
crowd.
G
One
of
the
witnesses
suggested
with
30
seats.
There
might
be
15
people
in
the
premises.
If
there's
five
in
my
client's
premises,
that
would
be
a
lot.
There
seems
to
have
been
a
complete
misunderstanding
as
to
the
number
of
people
who
would
come
in
and
I'd
invite
any
of
your
witnesses
or
you
yourselves
members
of
the
committee,
to
go
and
see
how
many
people
you
get
in
these
premises.
You
don't
need
staff
crawling
all
over
the
place.
G
Evidence
again
passing
on
very
quickly.
Quite
a
lot
of
points
were
made
about
the
current
betting
officers,
which
I
hope
the
point
has
been
made.
My
client
does
not
trade
like
a
betting
officer,
it's
a
different
product.
It
attracts
a
different
crowd
and
empirically
and
historically,
while
trading
in
many
many
deprived
areas.
It
just
doesn't
get
problems,
and
I
put
this
out
there.
G
If
somebody
wants
to
disprove
that
or
gain
say
it
let
them,
but
there
is
no
evidence
and
as
problems
did
materialize,
then
any
one
of
these
good
residents
or
local
councillors
or
officers
could
bring
a
review
and
say
that
those
lovely
honeyed
words
spoken
by
that
paid
representative
were
not
true,
and
these
problems
they
promised
did
not
arise,
have
arisen.
Now.
Please
do
something
about
it
and
you'd
find
your
representative,
who
happened
to
be
me
rather
contrite,
on
a
review
hearing
if
problems
did
materialize.
G
Contrary
to
what
I
have
said,
karen
harris
spoke
and
said
that
underage
people
will
be
able
to
access
the
venue.
I
think
she
said
over
16.
So
just
isn't
right
with
respect
under
18s
will
just
not
be
allowed
in
these
premises.
It
will
not
occur
so
far
as
her
concerns
about
nuisance
are
concerned.
Of
course
my
client
will
be
neighborly.
Of
course,
my
client
will
have
treat
the
neighbors
kindly
notices.
Of
course,
it
will
monitor
the
exterior.
G
The
nuisance
is
not
a
licensing
consideration
for
you
as
the
act
and
the
guidance
makes
clear.
She
also
spoke
about
the
rear
of
the
premises.
There's
no
rear
access
to
my
client's
premises,
but
my
clients
would
certainly
be
content
to
put
cctv
around
the
premises
to
make
sure
that
nothing
untoward
was
happening
on
any
on
on
any
side.
There
was
a
concern
from
her
that
my
client
might
use
this
as
a
foothold
to
expand
operations.
G
It
won't
be
doing
that
the
model
is
a
small
high
street
bingo
premises,
beacon
bingo
in
cricklewood,
with
its
massive
flat
floor,
etc,
is
a
completely
different
sort
of
operation
by
a
different
company
in
the
group.
That
is
not
what
this
is.
There's
also
a
suggestion
that
games
interfaces
are
aimed
at
young
people.
G
I
know
that
she
wouldn't
have
access
to
all
the
sort
of
technical
rules
on
this,
but
they
mustn't
be,
they
can't
be
and
they
aren't
because
it
would
be
against
the
law
and-
and
so
I
come
to
what
this
test
is
actually
about.
The
context
of
this
is
uk
gambling
regulation,
which
is
an
aim
to
permit,
and
some
of
the
submissions.
You've
heard
almost
supposes
that
gambling
doesn't
happen
in
hair
hills
and
my
client
would
bring
some
great
gambling
leviathan
to
the
to
the
midst
of
this
community.
G
No
gambling
does
happen
in
hair
hills,
it
happens
in
news
agents
through
lottery
terminals,
it
happens
in
betting
offices,
it
happens
in
pubs,
it
happens
online.
That
is
not
what
this
act
is
trying
to
do
is
to
say
there
must
not
be
gambling.
It's
a
horrible
thing.
What
the
gambling
act
is
aiming
to
do
is
to
ask
you
to
aim
to
permit
and
imaginatively
to
frame
conditions
with
the
assistance
of
the
applicant
to
meet
concerns
about
negative
impact.
It's
not
inviting
you
to
say
this
is
the
wrong
area
for
gambling.
G
Some
new
conditions
were
suggested
which
we
were
scrolling
down
and
been
communicating
about
them
on
on
on
whatsapp,
but
a
bit
sad.
They
weren't
discussed
beforehand,
but
I'm
just
going
to
do
my
best
to
deal
with
them
conditions,
4,
5
and
6.
Are
yes
emphatically.
Yes,
my
client
would
be
very
pleased
to
do
all
of
these
things
condition.
One.
G
The
planning
hours,
incidentally,
are
eight
to
eleven.
My
client
has
offered
nine
until
twelve,
it's
suggested.
Well,
it
should
come
back
till
10,
because
people
might
leave
the
betting
officers
and
stream
into
the
bingo
clubs.
That
is
simply
not
my
client's
experience
from
elsewhere
and
if
you
want
evidence
of
that,
look
at
mr
butterworth,
his
material
all
take
it
from
me
that
there
isn't
that
kind
of
linkage
with
the
nighttime
economy
that
people
tumble
out
of
pubs,
clubs
or
betting
officers
and
into
bingo.
It
is
a
different
demographic.
G
G
Can
I
reiterate
please
that
when
you
look
at
what
the
gambling
commission
has
to
say
about
conditions-
and
you
can
find
that
you
don't
need
to
turn
it
up
now
on
page
70,
5
of
the
bundle,
the
test
is
necessity
and
you
do
not
have
any
evidence
with
respect
that
it's
necessary
to
put
a
10
o'clock
condition
on
this
license.
So
we
we
wouldn't
go
with
that.
We
do
accept,
however,
that
there's
an
11
o'clock
condition
currently
on
planning,
and
my
client
obviously
has
to
observe
whichever
the
tighter
condition
is.
E
E
C
Finish,
thank
you.
So
so
your
time,
whilst
your
time
has
expired,
one
of
the
questions
that
I
had
got
down
the
ind
wanted
to
ask
you
was:
could
I
have
your
response
to
the
licensing
department's
suggestion
for
these
six,
so
we
will
carry
that
on.
As
a
question
of
mine,
I
would.
I
would
like
to
hear
what
your
thoughts
are
and
I'll
also
come
back
to
you
on
what
you've
already
said
on
them.
G
Thanks
so
much,
and
then
I'm
just
going
to
wrap
up
the
law
very
very
quickly,
as
you
can
see,
I'm
trying
not
to
hang
around
I'm
trying
to
be
as
respectful
as
I
can
about
the
the
the
time
limits
so
far
as
single
manning
at
any
time
is
concerned
that
isn't
on
any
license
in
my
client's
estate,
and
I
doubt
you'll
find
it
on
many
high
street
gambling
licenses
anywhere
in
the
country.
G
It's
just,
it
would
kill
the
operation
and
it's
not
necessary
in
accordance
with
the
licensing
objectives.
If
you
double
manned,
you
might
have
two
staff
members
on
in
the
morning
supervising
nil
people,
and
it
would
just
be
an
impossible
thing
to
manage
and
it
would
be
an
extraordinary
thing
to
do,
given
that
you
don't
have
double
manning
conditions
on
any
of
the
licensed
betting
officers
in
the
area,
even
though
it's
being
said
to
you
that
they
are
a
problem,
and
so
this
would
just
be
unfair,
unnecessary
and
discriminatory.
G
The
way
it
will
actually
work
is
that
my
client,
in
accordance
with
its
standard
procedures,
will
analyze
how
many
customers
are
in
the
premises
at
particular
times
will
consider
whether
there
are
local
issues
and
the
ability
of
the
staff
to
manage
those
issues
and
will
roster.
Accordingly,
it's
really
happy
to
have
a
condition
that
says:
it'll
risk
assess
that
and
share
the
risk
assessment
with
the
licensing
authority,
and
if
it
gets
it
wrong
or
there's
a
disagreement,
then
it
would
come
back
on
a
review,
but
that
has
never
happened
and
with
respect.
G
G
There
already
is
a
suggested
condition
about
double
manning
in
the
evening
hours
which
you
will
find
which
kicks
in
after
10
o'clock,
and
there
will
be
no
pre-planned
single
stuffing
after
eight
o'clock,
which
means
between
eight
and
ten.
If
heaven
for
fender
staff
members
would
fall
ill
or
something
of
that
sort,
the
premises
would
not
automatically
need
to
close,
but
they
would,
if
that
happened
after
ten
o'clock,
but
to
impose
double
manning
on
a
small
high
street.
Anything
off
license
shop,
betting
office
anywhere
in
hair
hills.
G
I
can
guarantee
you
that
that
would
be
stringently
resisted
and
it's
not
necessary
in
this
particular
case,
and
so
far
as
I
think
probably
what
has
given
rise
to
that
is
that
your
officers
have
insufficiently
analyzed
how
many
people
go
in
to
these
premises.
It
seems
to
be
founded
on
the
proposition.
If
there's
30
seats,
they
might
be
half
that
number
in
the
premises
at
any
one
time.
That
will
not
happen,
and
if
it
were
to
happen,
my
client
would
be
double
staffing
itself
without
the
need
for
a
license
condition
on
the
point.
G
So
if
we
ever
had
to
go
elsewhere
with
this,
we
would
just
produce
evidence
of
numbers
in
all
of
its
premises
and
leads,
and
nobody
is
going
to
think
you've
got
to
have
two
staff
members
in
at
all
times
of
day
and
evening.
So
far
as
sia
staff
is
concerned,
I
make
exactly
the
same
point.
I
it's
with
respect.
It's
absolutely
remarkable
that
you've
got
this
consistent
evidence
that
all
your
betting
officers,
or
at
least
some
of
them,
have
got
real
problems
with
street
drinkers
and
crime
levels
and
all
of
that
sort
of
thing.
G
But
nobody
suggested
that
there
should
be
sia
staff
there.
There
are
no
sai
sia
staff
there,
but
here
you
have
an
operator
with
a
different
model,
saying
to
you
with
evidence
that
they
don't
give
rise
to
problems,
and
it's
being
suggested
that
you
need
to
have
paid
door
staff
outside
if
you
want
to
kill
the
operation
again,
that
would
be
the
way
to
do
it,
but
it
wouldn't
be
acceptable
because
it
is
not
necessary.
G
G
If,
however-
and
I
say
this
for
the
last
time,
problems
emerge,
which
suddenly
meant
there
needs
to
be
sia
door,
staff
in
my
client
will
be
the
first
person
to
put
them
in
to
solve
that
problem,
because
it
does
not
want
a
reputation
anywhere
in
its
estate
of
problems,
and
it
doesn't
want
a
local
community
to
think
that
of
it.
So
that's
what
I'll
say
about
conditions.
G
Those
certain
matters
are
is
this:
in
accordance
with
the
code
of
practice
answer
yes,
it
is.
I
would
ask
you
to
make
a
finding
of
that.
Is
it
in
accordance
with
relevant
guidance
by
the
gambling
commission?
Yes,
it
is,
and
again
I
ask
you
to
make
a
finding
in
relation
to
that.
Is
it
reasonably
consistent
with
the
licensing
objectives
bearing
mind?
This
is
subject
to
a
and
b
above
yes
with
all
of
these
conditions,
it
is
reasonably
consistent.
If
you
never
want
problem
gambling,
you
don't
allow
any
establishments
to
open.
G
All
that
is
needed
is
a
reasonable
consistency
and
there
clearly
is
from
its
track
record
around
the
country
and
its
response
here,
and
is
it
an
accordance
with
your
statement
of
licensing
policy?
Yes,
it
is,
and
there's
nothing
in
your
policy
that
says
there
are
areas
in
leeds
where
gambling,
even
of
good
operators
with
good
conditions
should
simply
be
refused.
The
height
of
this
case
is
there
are
vulnerable
people
here,
but
that's
where
the
case
stops.
G
What
did
what
the
case
has
not
done
is
to
demonstrate
by
evidence
which,
if
you
look
at
page
74,
is
what
is
required
demonstrate
by
evidence
that
my
client
has
not
taken
reasonable
steps
to
protect
vulnerable
people
and
therefore
it
is
more
likely
than
not
that
there
will
be
negative
impacts.
My
client
is
a
good
partner
to
communities.
G
C
Thank
you.
Okay.
I
mean
the
the
last
points
that
you
made
there
as
a
licensing
subcommittee.
We
are
well
aware
of
that
is
our
duty
to
determine
those
very
items,
and
that
is
what
we
have
to
make
our
decision
on
and
we
will
be
doing
so.
Okay,
councillor
knight,
are
you
wishing
to
come
in.
Ask
a
few
questions.
B
Yes,
please
chef,
if
I
may,
I
I
I'd
like
to
get
to
what
appears
to
be
the
crux
of
the
match,
and
that
is
in
relation
to
something
you
you
just
mentioned,
mr
colvin.
B
Earlier
on,
when
I
was
asking
some
questions
about
the
the
customer
gains
and
losses,
I
think
it
was
an
admission
that
the
company's
success
is
based
on
customer
loss
overall
now,
clearly,
you
know,
bearing
in
mind
that
this
is
an
area
of
great
deprivation,
bearing
in
mind
that
on
page
327
of
the
pack,
the
research
refers
to
certain
groups
that
are
more
vulnerable
to
gambling
related
harm.
B
All
of
those
groups
are
within
this.
This
particular
area
in
which
you're
proposing
to
establish
the
bingo.
B
Can
you
explain
again
and
perhaps
recap
what
the
applicant
will
do
to
ensure
that
their
company's
success
is
not
by
the
exploitation
of
vulnerable
people,
as
defined
in
this
list
that
live
within
the
area
of
this
particular
proposed
premises
and
of
whom
there
are
very
many
in
this
particular
area?
What,
specifically,
will
they
be
doing
to
meet
that
licensing
objective
which
protects
vulnerable
people
in
this
area,
of
whom
there
are
many.
G
Can
I
just
address
the
premise
of
your
question
first,
which
is
that
my
client's
success
is
based
on
making
a
profit
from
gambling
activity
and
that's
absolutely
true
in
the
same
way
that
all
of
the
risk
groups
that
you've
mentioned
are
also
risks
for
alcoholism,
and
the
success
of
all
of
your
local
off
licenses
is
predicated
on
people
purchasing,
alcohol
and,
and
you
could
easily
have
a
national
system
which
said
you
could
have
a
prohibition
system
which
said
well.
G
The
way
our
democracy
deals
with
this
is
to
say
that
gambling
is
a
legitimate
retail
activity
and
which
works
on
making
profit
from
people,
and
what
is
required
is
that
those
who
are
purveying
that
activity
have
to
do
so
in
a
way
which
meets
the
regulatory
objectives
of
the
legislation
and
that
would
apply
to
alcohol
and
other
forms
of
licensed
activity
too.
G
The
national
standards
here
were
in
the
lccps
and
the
mandatory
and
default
conditions
it
wanted
more,
and
my
client
brings
a
lot
more
in
the
way
that
it
runs
its
operation,
which
we've
set
out
in
these
400
pages,
which
I'm
very
grateful
to
people
to
read.
But
more
recently,
the
gambling
commission
has
pointed
out
that
there'll
be
some
areas
which
are
more
vulnerable
than
other
areas
and
that's
what
you've
just
done.
G
This
area
is
more
vulnerable
than
other
areas,
and
so,
as
a
result,
what's
required
of
the
operator
is
not
just
to
come
along
and
say:
oh
we're,
perfect,
doesn't
matter
whether
it's
hair
hills
or
knightsbridge.
You
know
the
controls
are
all
exactly
the
same.
G
The
operators
got
to
go
to
research
and
demonstrate
an
understanding
of
the
local
area
and
then
put
in
place
appropriate
measures
to
respond
to
those
vulnerabilities
and
the
appropriate
measures
that
my
my
my
client
has
put
in
are
set
out
at
page
pages
304
to
306,
which
are
the
35
further
conditions,
but
there's
also
other
measures
which
aren't
even
in
the
conditions,
things
like
the
playwright
app
and
the
responsible
gambling
messaging
on
machines,
which
is
a
process
which
has
been
developed
after
research
and
together
with
gam
care.
G
So
it's
already
going
above
and
beyond,
but
so
far,
then,
as
the
the
legal
obligations
it's
taking
upon
itself
are
concerned,
those
are
set
out
in
long
form
at
pages
304
to
306,
and
then
I've
tried
to
summarize
them
competently
for
you
at
pages
eight,
nine
and
ten
of
my
skeleton
argument
and
where
we've
set
out
the
further
conditions
which
my
client
is
prepared
to
take
on
itself
in
recognition
of
the
fact
that
a
larger
proportion
than
normal
of
its
customers
will
be
vulnerable.
G
In
other
areas.
It
might
be
six
percent
in
other
areas.
It
might
be
ten
percent,
but
the
processors
that
my
client
has
to
put
in
place
mean
that
it's
got
to
be
the
more
alert
because,
rather
than
one
in
50
of
its
customers
coming
in,
who
may
be
vulnerable,
it
may
be
one
in
ten.
It
may
be
one
in
eight
and
what
my
client
has
to
do
is
through
its
compliance
team
and
through
its
learning
through
its
independent
audit,
ensure
that
that
all
that
can
be
done
to
protect
vulnerable
people
is
being
done.
G
Recognizing
that
the
for
the
majority
of
people,
gambling
is
just
a
leisure
activity
and
can
be
done
without
any
cause
of
concern
ex
in
exactly
the
same
way
as
with
alcohol.
Most
people
handle
their
alcohol.
G
Some
don't
and
so
premises
have
to
put
in
place
measures
to
deal
with
that,
and
so
the
measures
we've
put
in
place
are
page
304
to
306
on
pages
8,
to
10,
on
top
of
the
legal
obligations
in
the
lccp
mandatory
in
default
and
on
top
of
the
corporate
processes,
which
have
been
the
subject
of
admiration
by
licensing
subcommittees
and
officers
up
and
down
the
land.
D
C
Okay,
thank
you.
I
have
a
few
to
ask
in
the
pack.
It
says
on
page
29,
local
police
currently
liaising
with
local
police
licensing
team
recording
regarding
operational
proposals,
that's
still
sort
of
highlighting,
as
highlighted
as
being
incomplete,
and
I
just
wondered
if
you
had
any
comments
to
make
on
that.
That's
question:
one
question:
two:
we've
seen
that
the
licensing
department
have
suggested
a
condition
of
9
a.m,
to
10
p.m
and
at
the
moment
you're
only
allowed
under
planning
conditions
to
open
until
11..
C
The
planning
condition,
as
you
know,
is
not
relevant
to
the
licensing.
However,
I
just
wonder,
given
the
concern
of
the
police
and
local
residents,
that
other
establishments
closing
at
10
o'clock
could
lead
to
people
coming
into
yours.
C
I
accept
everything
that
you've
said
about
the
conditions
put
on
entry
and
things
like
that,
and
but
is
there
any
merit
or
would
you
be
prepared
to
have
if
we
were
so
minded
a
last
entry
time
of
say,
10
o'clock,
so
that
those
already
within
the
premise
could
continue
to
play?
Bingo
could
continue
on
the
machines,
but
no
later
entry
is
permitted.
C
That's
a
suggestion
that
might
help
us.
If
we
are
minded-
and
one
of
the
other
concerns
I've
got
is,
this
is
listed
as
a
bingo
premise.
Predominantly
now
I
at
a
younger
age,
was
certainly
when
I
went
to
the
seaside,
went
into
bingo
halls
and
there
were
lots
of
people
playing.
You
say
that
you're
only
expecting
potentially
say
five
customers
at
a
time.
How
do
you
play
bingo
with
five?
C
Is
it
that
it's
with
other
premises
or
is
it
you
know,
because
if
there's
only
five
of
you
or
there's
only
two
people
playing
bingo
you're
going
to
win
every
time?
So
how
does
that
work?
I'm
sure
there
is
a
as
I'm
talking.
I've
just
realized.
It's
probably
that
it's
perhaps
an
online
bingo
with
other
things,
but
if
you
could
just
clarify
that
and
to
how
how
you
feel
that
the
mix
between
bingo
and
gaming
machines
will
play
out
within
the
establishment,
if
you've
only
five,
will
they
be
playing
bingo?
C
G
Sure,
sir,
thank
you
and
the
first
question
was
about
liaison
with
police
licensing
that
is
dealt
with
at
page
253,
paragraph
11
of
our
bundle,
and
this
is
amanda
keane
and
for
the
purposes
of
the
current
application,
the
local
police
licensing
team
were
initially
consulted
throughout
may
to
july,
but
unfortunately
no
response
was
received
to
our
inquiries.
G
All
I
would
say
about
that
is
that
my
client
would
love
to
deal
with
the
with
the
police
licensing
team.
If
this
license
is
granted,
those
relationships
are
extremely
important
and
it
may
well
be
one
of
the
things
which
happened
here.
Sergeant
winster
has
got
a
general
concern
here
about
crime
and
disorder,
whereas
a
police
licensing
team
is
sometimes
a
little
bit
pragmatic
about
whether
individual
premises
might
do
this
or
that
to
ensure
that
they're
not
going
to
be
a
problem
locally,
so
my
client
has
tried
has
also
tr
has
always
tried,
tries
everywhere.
G
In
nearly
all
cases,
it
ends
up
with
a
very
good
dialogue.
Unfortunately,
that
didn't
happen.
It's
not
a
criticism,
it's
coveted
everyone's
busy
and
flying
around
and
so
forth,
but
my
client
is
very
much
into
these
local
relationships.
G
G
Whatever
you
do
my
client's
suggestion
in
relation
to
last
entry,
of
course,
you
can
make
orders,
I
mean
by
way
of
condition,
but
the
suggestion
that
we
would
make
is
that
my
client
would
be
prepared
to
put
the
maglock
on
after
10
pm,
and
that
would
mean
that
anybody
who
wanted
to
get
in
after
10
would
have
to
ask
to
be
admitted
and
then
would
be
checked
on
a
video
entry
system
and
then
permitted
to
enter
if
if
they
were
regarded
as
suitable
and
not
if
they
were
not
regarded
as
suitable.
G
So
I
hope
that
that
would
be
a
a
suitable
compromise.
On
that
point
to
guard
against
what
I've
said
to
you
is
a
very
unlikely
occurrence
is
that
people
tip
out
of
betting
officers
into
bingo
premises,
they're
just
different
environments,
different
gender
splits,
different
atmospheres
and
no
events,
no
horse
racing
taking
place
on
the
screens
and
no
bets
to
put
on
on
virtual
dogs
and
all
of
that
sort
of
thing.
But
anyway.
I
hope
that
would
be
an
acceptable
solution.
G
G
So
far
as
the
nature
of
the
premises
are
concerned,
the
reason
that
my
client
wants
a
bingo
license
is
he
wants
bingo
to
happen.
If
he
didn't
want
bingo
to
happen,
it
would
have
applied
for
an
adult
gaming
center.
The
machine
entitlement
is
exactly
the
same
in
an
adult
gaming
center
as
it
is
in
a
bingo
premises,
no
limit
on
number
of
machines,
but
20
only
20
of
them
can
be
category
b3
machines.
So
it's
exactly
the
same
sort
of
premises.
G
What
the
extra
over
entitlement
you
get
with
bingo
is
that
you're
entitled
to
provide
bingo
and
what
has
struck
you
is
as
sir
two
things
the
one
would.
It
primarily
be
bingo
there
used
to
be
a
rule
in
the
license,
conditions
and
codes
of
practice
called
primary
gambling
activity
whereby
you
used
to
have
to
show
that
your
the
thing
you
were
licensed
for
eg
here
bingo
would
be
the
primary
activity.
G
But
after
a
lot
of
public
debate
on
the
topic,
the
gambling
commission
changed
its
rule
to.
We
can
find
this
on
page
201
to
a
rule
that
to
have
a
bigger
license.
You
have
to
provide
substantive
facilities
for
bingo,
so
there's
no
law
or
code
of
practice
about
the
order
of
priority
between
machines
and
bingo,
and
you
can
see
why
that
would
be.
G
We
all
used
to
dash
around
boroughs
counting
the
number
of
people
in
particular
premises
and
how
many
were
on
machines
and
how
many
are
at
the
betting
counter
and
so
on,
and
it
was
just
ridiculous,
so
the
gambling
commission
got
rid
of
it.
You
simply
have
to
provide
bingo
in
premises
where
you're
licensed
for
it.
So
far
as
the
bingo
is
concerned.
G
So
what
you're
remembering
and
I
used
to
rather
enjoy
calling
was
large
bingo
games,
which
was
effectively
equal
chance
gaming,
where
100
or
200
people
were
playing
against
each
other
and
the
first
person
to
call
house
somebody
would
run
over
and
check
their
card
and
then
they
would
win
and
the
way
these
machines
work
is
there's
two
different
sorts
of
games.
G
There's
games
which
are
played
with
other
people,
not
necessarily
in
the
same
premises
and
perhaps
rarely
in
the
same
premises,
which
are
called
national
games
where
you're
linked
up
with
people
doing
the
same
thing
in
other
places,
but
there's
also
games
which
are
just
offered
on
the
tablet
itself,
which
are
not
online
effectively.
The
definition
of
bingo
is
a
lottery
played
as
a
game,
so
balls
are
generated
with
numbers.
G
The
card
is
populated
and
if,
at
the
end
of
the
game,
you've
got
your
line
or
you've
got
your
card,
then
you
win
the
game,
and
that
means
that
you're
able
to
play
bingo
just
by
yourself
essentially
numbers
are
called,
and
you
see
at
the
end
of
the
game
whether
you've
won
the
game.
So
that's
how
the
tablets
worked
as
an
amalgam
of
those
two
different
ways
of
playing
bingo.
C
So,
just
to
just
so,
I've
got
it
fully
correctly
in
my
head.
If
you
were
playing
a
solo
game
of
bingo,
you'd
get
a
random
generation
of
numbers
for
your
card,
and
what
would
happen
then
is
a
series
of
random
numbers
were
generated,
but
a
limited,
a
finite
number,
and
if
you
got
to
the
end
of
that
finite
number
and
you
hadn't
completed
your
card,
you've
lost
you
put
it
perfectly.
C
So
I
understand
what
your
in
your
clients
intention
for
the
type
of
facilities
offered.
C
And
does
your
client
have
the
opportunity
to
set
the
payout
percentages
on
those
machines
or
are
they
set
by
regulation
and
unchangeable.
G
C
Oh
bingo
is,
is
the
the
state
surprises
are
set
by
wetzel?
We
don't
have
no
manipulation
of
the
odds
on
on
the
bingo
game.
C
Thank
you
for
that,
because
I'm
aware
that
historically
pub
slot
machines,
the
they
could
be
set
up
for
different
payouts,
and
so
typically
my
understanding
was
from
somebody
that
had
one
is
that
when
they
got
a
new
machining
they'd
set
it
high
and
then
ramp
it
down,
so
that
gradually
people
would
win
less
once
they
got
hooked
now.
That
may
not
be
part
of
the
industry
anymore,
but
this
was
certainly
around
many
years
back.
G
C
No
sorry
yeah,
I
was
referring
to
bingo,
see
wax
will
set
the
the
limits
on
bingo
all
our
digital
game,
offering
the
return
to
player
the
percentage
is
displayed
on
screen.
So
so
yes,
there
is
a
slight
you
could
change
from
it.
It's
88
90
92,
but
that
is
always
displayed
on
the
cabinet
as
well.
So
we
we
don't
change
any
of
the
settings
once
the
cabinet
goes
in
there.
It
maintains
that
percentage.
It's
displayed
on
the
screen,
so
that
is
really
from
yesterday,
referring
to
on
the
pub
side
of
things.
H
C
C
Should
the
subcommittee
have
any
additional
questions,
and
if
there
are,
we
will
you'll
be
invited
back
into
the
meeting,
so
basically
what
it
is
we're
going
to
go
and
have
an
initial
conversation
about
this,
and
if
we
feel
that
we
do
between
us
need
any
further
information,
we
will
come
back
before
then
going
away
and
making
our
final
decision.
C
C
It's
more,
it's
more
relevant
for
the
applicant
really
and
the
people
like
the
licensing
authority,
because
it
may
be
that
we
come
up
with
something
which
may
require
further
investigation
and
we'll
only
know
that
when
the
three
of
us
are
able
to
communicate
with
ourselves,
so
we're
going
to
go
to
a
breakout
room,
so
you're
free
to
to
go.
If
you
feel
that
you've
said
everything
or
if
you
wish
to
stay
around,
we
will
then
report
back
to
let
you
know
whether
we
need
any
further
information
from
anybody.
A
A
C
Thank
you
and
apologies
for
the
delay,
as
you'll
probably
appreciate,
there's
an
awful
lot
of
things
to
consider
within
this
application,
and
we
want
to
make
sure
that
we
consider
everything
that's
been
put
before
us
there's
just
a
couple
of
questions.
I'd
like
to
put
to
mr
colvin
one
is
in
your.
C
I
was
either
your
submission
or
your
summary
you
alluded
to
the
when
when
actually
in
the
summary,
when
the
licensing
authority
said
about
the
potential
of
six
additional
conditions,
conditions
two
and
three
relating
to
staffing
levels,
you
said
that
they
would
be
disproportionate,
etc
because
others
in
the
area
don't
have
them.
C
However,
you
did
say
when,
when,
when
asked
about
the
fact
that
there
would
be
a
potential
single
crewing
for
much
of
the
day,
but
you
would
then
assess
that
if
you
had
the
license
granted,
you
would
assess
that
over
a
period
of
time
to
see
whether
additional
staffing
was
needed
at
various
times.
C
Would
you
be,
therefore,
if
we
were
minded
to
grant,
would
you
be
agreeable
to
a
condition
that
would
say
that
that
audit
should
be
undertaken
say
on
a
quarterly
basis
and
shared
with
the
licensing
authority,
which
would
therefore
tell
us
the
level
of
customers
that
you
have
within
your
premise,
so
that
that
audit
risk
assessment
is
done
shared
and
so
that
we
can
ensure
that
there
is
a
suitable
staffing
level?
C
However,
you
have
said
that
your
your
application
still
stands
at
10
until
12
midnight
and
we
we
are
concerned
around
this
point
and
given
that
your
planning
is
until
11
p.m.
Whilst
it
is
not
a
factor
for
our
consideration,
would
you
be
minded
to
bearing
in
mind
that
you
said
that
you
would
operate
legally
to
operate
legally
would
mean
a
terminal
hour
of
11
pm.
C
G
C
Okay,
thank
you
for
that
and
thank
you,
everyone
for
your
attendance.
There
are
no
further
questions
that
we
need
to
ask,
and
so
that
concludes
the
business.
For
today
you
will
be
informed
of
our
decision
within
five
working
days.
Thank
you
very
much
for
attending.
At
this
point,
I
would
normally
say
safe
journey
home,
but
I
can
see
that
many
of
you
already
there,
so
I
wish
you
all
the
best
for
the
rest.