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From YouTube: Leeds City Council - Scrutiny Board (Children and Families) - 16th February 2022 (Part 2)
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A
Okay,
so
welcome
back
to
what
is
now
public
session
of
the
children
family
scrutiny
board
to
fill
in
the
gap.
What
has
just
been
described
to
the
board
is
a
circumstance
where
the
partners,
the
health
partners,
the
police
partners
on
the
council
disagreed
about
notify
notifying
a
case,
and
we've
had
some
discussion
about
that.
What
I'd
like
to
I've
got
a
few
more
questions
to
just
vinder
before
I
open
questions
to
the
board,
which
has
vendor
and
then
I'll
invite
councillor,
vena
and
sal
to
to
respond.
A
I
will
take
further
questions,
then.
So,
with
what
we've
just
heard,
jazz
finder.
Are
there
any
other
occasions
where
the
partners
have
disagreed.
B
So,
just
just
to
go
back
to
the
review
advisory
group
deals
with
the
most
vulnerable
cases
with
the
most
serious
harm,
and
that
is
where
partners
collectively
will
have
a
conversation
to
consider.
Whether
or
not
a
case
in
front
of
us
warrants
a
notification
to
the
national
panel.
B
B
Now
I
wouldn't
ordinarily
do
that,
but
I
have
to
sleep
with
myself
at
night,
I'm
here
to
make
a
difference.
I'm
here
representing
safeguarding
children,
I'm
not
political
about
safeguarding
this
is
about
making
a
difference,
and
if
one
of
my
roles
is
to
drive
improvements
on
the
basis
of
the
most
horrendous
cases
we
see,
then
we
have
to
look
very
closely
at
them.
A
And
in
in
these
instances,
without
any
specifics,
yes
or
no
will
be
quite
sufficient,
were
these
these
cases
known
to
child
protection.
C
A
Thank
you
and
my
final
question
for
open
it
to
the
board.
How
many
other
cases
are
you
aware
of,
or
could
there
be
where
a
notification
should
have
been
considered
and
wasn't.
B
A
Okay,
thank
you.
That's
all
the
questions
that
I
have
before
we
bring
in
salon
council
of
vena
I'd
like
to
invite
any
board
members
to
ask
questions
of
of
just
vinder,
so
I
saw
helen
first
I
think,
and
then
councillor
agree
and
just
leave
your
hands
up.
If
you
wanted
to
speak.
E
E
B
So
an
answer
to
your
first
question:
the
review
advisory
group
representatives
are
health,
police
and
children's
services,
so
they
will
be
the
deputies
for
the
executive
board.
Members
then
rebecca
attends
as
our
legal
advisor
and
then
I
will
chair
that
meeting.
All
those
meetings
are
minuted,
they're
all
ministers,
so
we
do
have
minutes
for
that
meeting.
They're,
not
public
meetings,
but
we
do.
They
are
ministers
so
that
the
minutes
are
recorded.
So
the
discussions
are
recorded.
E
B
B
Yeah
I
mean
the
point
is:
is
that
in
terms
of
notifications
and
how
many
notifications
are
made
by
this
city?
Historically,
the
point
she
made
was
they
are
lower
compared
to
other
cities.
So
what
we
are
doing
as
part
of
the
review
is,
we
are
comparing
ourselves
to
other
cities
with
respect
to.
You
know
why
that
is
but
nationally
the
national
panel
have
in
their
report
of
2020.
F
A
Thank
you
for
that
councillor
carter.
Please.
E
Well,
councillor
gruen
actually
beat
me
to
one
of
the
questions,
but
I
do
have
another
actually
chair,
I'm
struggling
to
understand
why
other
partners
would
disagree
with
children's
services
when
we
see
a
case
like
we
have
just
alluded
to,
which
is
clearly
in
anybody's
eyes,
as
far
as
I
can
see,
is
extremely
serious
and
has
a
damaging
effect
on
the
child.
E
So
I
wonder
if
you
could
explain
to
me
jasmine
what
the
rationale
was
given
by
children's
services
or
the
police
and
health?
Why
did
they
disagree
on
it?.
B
Chair,
if
we're
referring
to
the
first
case,
I'm
afraid
I
don't
have
the
rationale-
and
this
has
been
part
of
the
problem
in
terms
of
rationale-
needs
to
be
recorded.
We
are
changing
that
now,
so
I
don't
have
the
rationale
but
but
where,
when
the
partners
are
considering
whether
or
not
something
meets
the
definition
that
we
have
to
consider,
they
base
that
on
evidence
they
base
that
on
scoping.
B
They
will
base
that
on
information
from
partners
that
comes
into
the
rapid
review
advisory
group
meeting,
so
you
would
scope
where
this
child
has
been
involved
in
agencies,
etc.
Everything
will
be
scoped
so
on
the
basis
of
that
and
their
judgment,
that's
when
they
would
make
a
judgment,
so
they
they
can,
they
can
put
that
forward
and
give
their
opinions
and
all
all
the
opinion.
B
For
me,
that's
a
that
should
be
a
level
playing
field
when
you're
sharing
those
judgments
and
opinions
as
professionals,
but
but
if
the
local
authority
make
the
decision
to
hear
that
conversation
and
then
not
decide
to
notify.
Well,
then
that's
that's
the
legal
position
that
that's
the
law.
So
it's
difficult
for
me
to
say
I
mean.
Maybe
our
children's
services
at
the
table
here
can
explain
the
recording
of
rationale
and
and
what
the
thinking
is
behind.
A
Okay,
thank
you
jackie.
Please.
F
I
I
think,
in
my
view,
from
the
limited
information
that
I
have.
E
F
E
A
Thank
you.
I
think
that
some
perhaps
we
pick
up
in
our
conclusions
and
and
further
work
on
this
I've
got
councillor
stevenson.
Next,
please.
G
Thanks
I've
got
two
questions.
The
first,
I
think,
will
probably
come
to
rebecca
jazvinder
just
said
that
of
these
serious
cases,
she's
concerned
about
a
notification
still
hasn't
been
made,
and
I
think
we
heard
that
it's
only
the
local
authority
that
can
make
that
notification.
G
So
is
there
within
the
constitution
of
the
council
or
otherwise,
a
mechanism
that
can
force
that
notification
to
be
made
if
the
children
families
directorate
is
refusing
to
do
it
I.e
if
that
was
the
resolution
of
so.
If
the
safeguarding
chair
made
a
concern
to
the
executive
board
and
the
executive
board
made
a
resolution,
could
that
trigger
it?
Or
is
it
just
down
to
the
director
to
make
that
judgment
call.
F
Thank
you
councillor
stevenson.
It
is
the
duty
of
children's
services,
ultimately
headed
up
by
the
director
to
make
that
decision.
F
I'm
sure
he
will
be
informed
by
all
of
the
information
that
is
gathered
by
the
social
work
team
and
cascaded
upwards
through
the
management
tree
to
him
when
he
ultimately
makes
that
decision,
whether
to
notify
or
not.
F
But
no,
I
don't
believe
there
is
any
other
scope
within
the
constitution
to
override
that
and
I
don't
think
that
would
be
possible
either.
G
Okay,
perhaps
we'll
come
back
to
that
in
recommendations
chair.
My
second
question
is
to
jasmine
and
I
think
at
this
stage
I
want
to
say
your
personal
commitment.
Jazvinder
has
shunned
through
here
this
morning
to
the
issue
and
I'm
sure
that
it
is
not
an
easy
thing
for
you
to
come
here
today
and
and
and
share
what
you've
shared
with
us,
and
we
commend
you
you
for
that
in
terms
of
the
serious
cases
that
you've
mentioned.
G
B
But
what
what
I
would
like
to
go
back
to,
if
I'm
a
counselor
stevenson,
is
that
that
question
you
raise
about
the
constitutional
position
with
regards
to
notifications
and
being
in
this
position
yet
again
led
me
to
haven't
be
having
a
conversation
with
the
national
panel,
because
that
doesn't
sit
with
me
and
what
I
was
informed
was
that
we
could
consider
or
be
may
not
be
constitutional,
a
retrospective
notification,
and
I
did
discuss
that
at
the
review
advisory
group.
So
you
can
go
back
and
look
at
a
notification
decision.
B
B
So
I
don't
know
if
I've
answered
your
cat.
Your
question
counselor
stevenson
I,
but
I
do
hope
the
point
about
retrospective
notifications
helps
or
be
it's
not
written
into
any
constitution.
A
Thank
you
for
that.
Councillor
lay
please.
H
Thank
you
chair.
Thank
you,
jacinda,
just
shipping,
just
like
like
ryan
councillor
stinson.
I
want
to
commend
you
for
coming,
because
I
don't
like
to
make
judgments
about
people's
feelings.
I'm
not
in
a
position
to
say
what
people
are
feeling,
but
it
feels
like
me.
H
B
Accountability
for
child
protection
is
is
collective,
it
always
has
to
be
collected.
This
is
about
partnership,
and
in
my
role
there
is
only
so
much
I
can
do
and
I
feel
the
frustration
of
partners
actually
as
well,
who,
quite
rightly
based
on
evidence,
will
come
forward
and
give
their
views
based
on
evidence.
I
will
say
again
with
respect
to
why
they
deemed
something
to
have
met
the
criteria
of
serious
harm
and
then
to
have
that
view
not
considered
in
the
way
they
would
expect
for
me
is
frustrating.
B
Let
me
be
clear:
I'm
not
angry.
This
is
this
is
my
job
I'm
here
to
scrutinize
to
challenge
you
employ
me
to
be
objective.
That's
my
role,
and
this
is
about
children,
and,
albeit
the
local
authority,
has
the
duty
I'll
go
back
to
saying
again.
This
is
rebecca's
point.
This
is
a
collective
responsibility
with
regards
to
the
collaboration
before
we
get
to
that
point
of
who's
going
to
notify
or
not.
H
I
guess
my
second
point
would
be
I'm
surprised
that
as
an
independent
chair,
you
don't
have
the
authority
to
make
notifications
and
that
you
say
yourself
that
you're
not
a
decision
maker.
When
we
have
ofsted,
we
have
cqc,
we
have
a
variety
of
other
bodies
in
other
sectors
of
local
and
national
government
that
do
have
that
independence
and-
and
I
you
know,
there's
no
question
to
this.
I
just
find
it
amazing
that
you
cannot
compel
the
partners
to
make
a
notification
and
it
seems
like
a
flaw
in
the
legislation.
B
I
would
expect
it
to
and
and
that's
the
point-
maybe
it's
a
national
issue-
I
don't
know,
but
I
certainly
intend
to
advocate
that
as
an
independent
chair,
it's
about
doing
the
right
thing.
A
Thank
you.
I've
got
three
more
contributors
and
I'm
very
conscious
that
I
want
to
make
sure
that
sal
and
council
vender
have
a
good
opportunity
to
to
put
their
views
across
as
well.
So
if
I
can
take
celia
first,
please.
I
C
You
sure,
can
I
there's
a
few
points,
but
it's
getting
a
bit
confusing
with
people's
feelings
and
emotions,
understandably,
but
this
system
was
changed
quite
recently.
Prior
to
that
change,
the
decision-making
was
within
the
partnership,
as
I
understand
it,
but
that's
rhetorical.
C
Correct
me
if
I'm
wrong
and
we're
we're
discussing
whether
there
should
have
been
notification
for
a
rapid
review
is
that
correct
and
the
rapid
review
is
roughly
to
look
at
any
necessity
like
feedback
critique
of
the
systems
that
were
used,
the
way
the
partners
and
then
final
point
in
the
case
of
a
majority
of
the
partners
wanting
this
notification
for
a
review
rapid
review?
B
Absolutely-
and
it
should
be
a
matter
of
course,
that
rationale
should
be
documented
and
shared
amongst
partners,
and
I
that
that
is
happening
now,
I'm
not
sure
about
the
past,
but
just
to
make
the
point
in
terms
of
the
change
in
all
the
cases
that
we
consider.
B
We
always
consider
the
point
that
rebecca
made
in
terms
of
the
definition,
and
that
is
if
a
serious
incident
is
abused,
neglect
of
a
child
known
or
suspected,
and
if
the
child's
been
seriously
harmed
and
a
rapid
review
is
about
gathering
the
facts
of
the
case
rapidly
that
that's
the
point
of
a
rapid
review.
You
know
for
us
to
consider
any
immediate
action
and
we
have
to
do
that
as
quickly
as
possible
in
the
interest
of
the
child's
safety
and
for
the
potential
for
learning
that
that
that's
the
point
of
a
rapid
review.
A
Thank
you.
I've
got
helen,
please.
E
B
I
I'm
not
forgive
me
if
I
don't
understand
the
question
appropriately,
but
the
guidance
that
I
received
from
the
national
panel
was
that
you
could
consider
a
retrospective
notification,
because
new
information
may
come
to
light.
There
may
be,
you
know,
other
things
happening
that
you
didn't
know
before,
and
therefore
you
could
consider
a
retrospective
notification,
so
I'm
not
sure
about
what
implications
there
would
be.
B
I
think
I
think
I
think
it's
really
good
practice
to
be
able
to
put
your
hand
up
and
say
we
got
this
wrong
actually,
so
I
don't
I'm
not
too
concerned
about
reputational
risk
and
that's
the
culture
that
we
need
to
promote
that
open
culture
to
say.
Actually
you
know
we
didn't
get
this
right.
Let's
have
a
look
at
this
and
let's
review
this,
and
that
is
something
that
I
feel
this
system
can
promote
and
achieve
across
the
city
amongst
the
partnerships.
A
Thank
you.
So
I've
got
before
we
move
on.
I've
got
councillor
carter
and
then
andrew
and
then
I'm
going
to
move
on
at
this
point.
E
For
me,
that's
that's
key
just
been
to
what
you
just
said.
Is
that
it's
about
learning
and
putting
your
hand
up
and
saying
we
got
this
completely
wrong.
We
need
to
learn
from
it
and
time
after
time,
with
reviews
and
domestic
homicide
reviews
when
children
die
suddenly
die,
there's
always
learning
to
be
learned,
but
they're
always
the
same
lessons.
E
B
I
I
can't
numerically
give
you
any
numbers
in
relation
to
that,
but
what
I
can
say
is
that,
within
when
the
rapid,
the
review
advisory
group
do
consider
learning,
then
we
do
look
at
themes
and
there
may
be
consistent
themes.
A
F
Not
not
at
all,
thank
you,
jess
finder,
and
I
suspect
it
will
go
back
to
sir
alan
wood
and
his
review
of
2015
2016
that
when
he
looked
at
the
arrangements
for
safeguarding
boards,
he
looked
at
the
way
in
which
decisions
were
made
as
to
whether
or
not
a
serious
case
review
should
be
undertaken,
and
there
was
similar
criteria
applied
there
as
well.
F
That
reflects
that
the
current
legislation
and
my
understanding
of
my
reading
of
his
review
is
that
that
was
a
decision
that
needed
to
be
put
in
the
hands
of
one
organization
and
that
that
may
well
contribute
towards
making
new
arrangements
new,
safeguarding
arrangements,
more
effective,
more
efficient
and
reach
that
learning
more
quickly.
A
Okay,
thank
you
and
thank
you
very
much
jazvinder,
but
I
very
much
see
you
staying
as
part
of
the
discussion
as
we
continue.
So
just
to
summarize
what
we've
heard
and
to
repeat
my
rationale
for
bringing
this
here
today.
A
A
I
find
that
astonishing
and
not
acceptable
and
I
take
on
board
the
points
made
by
councillor
lennox
and
councillor
marshall
catton
that
it's
required
a
lot
of
information
to
come
to
the
board,
and
I
would
have
much
preferred
that
we'd
heard
and
learnt
about
this
issue
in
a
different
way.
But
we
weren't
given
that
opportunity
and
that's
why
I
felt
it's
appropriate
to
bring
it
in
this
way
today.
So
the
board
can
then
decide
what
they
want
to
do.
A
So,
I'm
going
to
hand
over
to
councillor
vena
and
sal
to
to
respond
to
what
they've
heard
and
then
we'll
open
it
to
questions.
J
Yeah,
thank
you.
The
first
point
I'd
like
to
make
to
the
board
is
just
to
really
get
across
to
you,
and
I
hope
you
know
this
anyway.
From
all
the
many
times
we've
met
with
you
that
jazvinder
is
not
the
only
person
in
this
room,
who's,
absolutely
passionate
about
children
about
their
well-being,
their
safety,
their
development.
All
of
us
who
are
involved
in
the
safeguarding
children's
partnership.
J
All
of
us
who
have
a
leadership
role
in
this
council
for
children
have
an
absolute
fierce
dedication
to
children
and
to
their
safety
and
to
their
well-being
and
to
lead
to
being
a
positive
place
for
children
to
be,
and
sun
and
julie.
In
particular,
hirosa
I
decided
to
have
spent
their
entire
working
lives
as
children's
champions,
as
children's
advocates
and
you
know,
have
delivered
really
outstanding
services
for
children
in
leeds,
as
rebecca
has
outlined,
there's
a
new
system
around
notification
that
came
in
in
2019.
J
What
I
would
really
want
to
stress
to
the
board
is
that
notifications
and
rapid
reviews
is
one
way
that
learning
happens
after
there's
a
serious
incident.
It
is
not
the
only
way
and
if
we
don't
notify
on
a
case,
it
absolutely
does
not
mean
that
it's
not
considered.
That's
not
reviewed
and
learning
takes
place,
and
julie
and
sal
have
much
more
detail
around
that
than
I
do
operationally.
J
But
there
is
learning
in
all
serious
cases,
and
notifications
is
just
one
aspect
of
that,
but
there
are
other
review
processes
with
reference
to
the
comment
that
just
linda
made
that
annie
had
sort
of
made
about
leeds
being
an
outlier
we
were
previously
before
2019.
We
did
make
less
notifications
rebecca,
I
believe,
has
the
data
that
we
are
not
an
outlier
now
in
terms
of
the
notifications
we
make
in
comparison
to
other
core
cities
or
in
comparison
to
other
places
in
west
yorkshire.
J
However,
having
said
that,
we
are
not
an
outlier,
but
we
do
have,
as
you
know,
a
really
excellent
social
work
service
under
the
help
offer
that
supports
children
in
the
city.
It
is
absolutely
the
case
that
there
has
been
disagreement
between
partners
on
notification,
but,
as
rebecca
has
outlined-
and
this
has
come
out
in
the
conversation-
the
legislation
states
that
it
is
the
local
authority
that
notifies-
and
it
was
really
interesting-
the
conversation
about
why
that
change
was
made.
J
Dcs's,
don't
have
to
be,
but
they
almost
always
are,
and
social
work
is,
of
course,
the
profession
that
is
most
imbued
in
in
child
protection,
so
the
social,
the
local
authority
that
is
making
the
notification
is
also
the
body
that
is,
is
managing
all
the
cases
where
children
are
on
childhood,
aiding
child
protection
plans
and
is
absolutely
immersed
in
child
protection
issues
all
the
time.
What
I
would
also
say
is,
I
know
that
cell
takes
peer
advice
on
these
issues
from
other
dcs's.
J
Sal
and
julia
are
also
drawing
on
their
own
vast
professional
experience
and
at
times
taking
peer
advice
from
other
people
in
similar
roles
and
in
the
case
of
the
most
recent,
the
most
recent
case.
There
is
a
disagreement,
I'm
very
aware
of
that
case,
as
is
tom
so
and
frankly,
obviously,
given
the
disagreement
there
has
been,
it
would
have
been
much
easier
for
cell
to
say.
Yes,
I
believe
this
make
is.
J
Because
of
the
disagreement,
and
because
we
value
our
partners,
we
are
doing
a
review
of
the
notification
process,
which
has
been
referred
to
extensively,
and
we
will
report
back
to
scrutiny
on
that,
and
we
have
also
requested
input
from
the
national
panel,
because
this
is
a
national
issue.
As
it's
been
referred
to
multiple
times,
it's
a
new
system
nationally
that
came
in
in
2019
and
just
vin
just
referred
to
inconsistencies
in
reporting
processes.
J
This
is
this
is
the
national
issue,
so
the
reason
we've
requested
support
for
the
national
panel
is
so
they
can
help
us
individually,
but
also
because
we're
flagging
up.
You
know
there
are
some
challenges
around
the
notification
process
as
it
currently
stands
and
as
jos
vinder
stated,
we've
also
asked
the
national
panel
to
give
us
another
opinion.
On
the
most
recent
case,
where
we've
said
no,
we
won't
notify,
but
the
other
partners
think
that
we
should,
but
we
are
bringing
in
another
opinion
on
that
matter,
which
sal
and
I
are
in
support
of.
J
With
regard
to
coming
to
this
coming
to
scrutiny-
and
this
is
a
reference
to
council
martial,
catalan
council
lenexa's
point-
I
did
request
of
the
chair
that
this
come
in
march
rather
than
today,
so
that
we
could
have
written
a
fuller
report.
You
could
have
had
more
information.
J
You
would
have
been
able
to
consider
it
in
advance
rather
than
getting
information
the
night
before
and
having
to
consider
it,
then,
although
I
also
do
take
into
account
the
choice
points
that
we
haven't
brought
this
sooner,
but
frankly,
we
will,
until
we've
done
the
review
you're,
not
getting
a
full
picture
of
where
we
are,
and
we
will
bring
the
review
report
back
to
scrutiny.
J
J
I'll
conclude
as
I
started,
which
is
just
to
reiterate
that
all
of
us
who
are
involved
in
children's
services
and
leads
at
a
senior
level
and
all
of
us
who
are
involved
in
the
safeguarding
children's
partnership
are
absolutely
committed
to
the
safety
of
children
and
leads
and
absolutely
passionate
about
doing
the
right
thing
by
them.
And
I
take
incredibly
seriously
my
very
privileged
role
as
being
advocate
for
some
of
the
most
vulnerable
children
in
this
city.
J
And
we
will
come
back
to
you
and
discuss
this
further
when
we've
completed
the
review.
Thank
you.
A
K
From
yes,
thanks,
catalan
and
obviously
I
think,
we've
covered
off
the
issue
about
comments
in
relation
to
specific
cases
which
I'm
not
able
to
make
given
the
sensitive
nature
of
them
and
where
they,
where
they
are
at
the
moment.
K
I
think
part
of
looking
at
this
is
about
the
fact
that
these
are
new
arrangements
that
came
into
place
in
september
2019,
and
we
have
been
working
nationally
and
locally
on
how
to
implement
those
recommendations.
And
it's
not
just
here
in
leeds
where
there
are
issues
in
terms
of.
K
K
But
where
there
is
either
a
child
death
or
a
serious
harm,
then
those
cases
or
small
number
of
cases
need
to
be
considered
for
notification
and
notification
and
learning.
K
And
but
it
is
not
just
the
notification
that
leads
to
the
learning
and
we've
had
quite
a
lot
of
conversations
about
how
else
we
might
do
that
learning
within
within
our
organizations
and
because
I
think
part
of
where
sir
ellen
wood
was
getting
to
in
terms
of
his
review
was
that
there
were
extensive
reviews
that
were
taking
place,
safeguarding
reviews
that
were
taking
place
that
were
coming
up
with
very
similar
recommendations.
K
I've
spoken
to
just
vinda
quite
a
lot
about
a
number
of
times
I'll
offer
to
bring
in
somebody
from
outside
of
the
country
to
help
us
with
this
who's
got
expertise
in
how
to
undertake
restorative
reviews
and
we've
not
been
able
to
move
to
that
position,
because
I
think
that
one
of
the
other
issues
that
people
already
talked
about
is
the
challenges
that
there
are
in
terms
of
safeguarding
practitioners
in
all
agencies,
but
particularly
in
in
social
work,
and
what
we
don't
want.
K
K
We've
done
appreciative
inquiries
where
things
have
gone
well
and
but
we've
also
done
learning
events
where
the
prac,
the
actual
practitioners
that
are
involved
in
a
particular
within
a
particular
child's
life,
and
when
that
results
in
a
serious
incident
that
we
bring
those
practitioners
together,
because
I
think
that
that's
where
the
richest
learning
can
happen,
both
in
terms
of
understanding
why
people
made
the
particular
decisions
that
they
did
in
those
circumstances.
K
K
So
I
just
want
to
make
it
clear
that
we
are
open
to
learning
there's
you
know,
there's
a
practice
review
going
on
in
terms
of
the
first
matter
that
you
mentioned
and
we'll
get
to
a
point
of
whether
that
doesn't
need
to
be
retrospectively
notified.
K
But
in
the
other
matter
again,
we've
undertaken
we're
undertaking
some
rapid
learning
so
that
that
can
be
fed
back
into
the
national
panel
and
we
can
have
a
discussion
with
them
about
whether
they
feel
the
whether
they
feel
it
should
have
been
notified
in
in
the
in
the
first
instance.
I
think
the
other
thing
that
I
would
say
is
just
this
bit
about
outliers.
K
I
do
consult
with
other
directors
of
child
or
the
directors
of
children's
services
about
circumstances
in
which
they
might
notify
or
otherwise,
and
given
that
previously,
all
three
partners
contributed
to
that
decision,
and
we
made
very
few
notifications.
K
We
are
now
that
those
increased
in
the
first
year
after
the
arrangements
came
in
and
have
continued
to
increase
and
we've
made
five
notifications
in
this
last
year.
A
Okay,
thank
you.
So
a
couple
of
questions
myself
before
I
bring
others
in.
First
of
all,
neither
yourself
cell,
council
or
venna.
I've
addressed
the
point
that
this
serious
issue
was
raised
with
you
and
you
didn't
seem
to
see
it
as
being
appropriate
to
bring
it
to
this
board
and
to
my
attention
as
chair
of
the
board,
and
you
didn't
address
that
in
your
opening
comments,
and
the
second
question
I'd
have
really
to
rebecca
is
what
I
think
I
heard
you
say
is
there.
A
In
fact,
I
did
hear
you
say
there
are
different
ways
to
learn
lessons
and
you
are
choosing
different
ways
to
to
learn
lessons.
My
understanding
from
what
rebecca
has
described
to
us
is
it
is
set
out
in
statutes
when
a
notification
shouldn't
shouldn't
be
made
and
the
threshold
for
doing
that
is
very
clear
and
therefore
it
is
not
really
in
our
gift
as
an
authority
to
decide
that
we
would
like
to
follow
a
different
path
at
times.
Am
I
wrong
in
what
I've
heard
and
understood
yeah.
K
Sorry,
what
I'm
saying
is
that
there
are
a
broader
range
of
ways
to
learn
and
you
can
conduct
a
even
the
the
notified
informal
reviews.
You
can
conduct
them
in
a
multitude
of
different
ways
in
order
to
ensure
that
that
that
learning
takes
place
I
was
I
was
comparing
that
the
current
position
to
how
it
used
to
be
historically
where-
and
we
had
a
lot
of
serious
case
reviews
where
it
was
felt
that
they
were
coming
up
with
very
similar
things.
K
They
took
a
long
time
to
complete
and
were
often
done
remotely
from
the
practitioners
that
had
been
actively
involved
in
the
cases.
So
there's
there
is
a
method.
There
are
methodologies
that
you
can
use,
but
we
do
learning
on
more
cases
than
we
decide
to
notify
on,
and
we
obviously
have
other
audit
activity
that
takes
place
both
on
a
multi-agency
and
on
an
agency
by
agency
basis,
which
is
also
which
is
also
an
opportunity
to
to
learn
on.
K
On
your
other
point,
you
know
I've
apologized
to
you
about
not
bringing
this
matter
previously.
It's
not
part
of
a
planned
mission.
You
know
purposefully,
we've,
we
have
been
operating
in
in
a
pandemic
under
a
lot
of
pressure,
and
we
were
on
with
trying
to
review
the
processes
so
that
we
have
a
so
that
we
have
a
a
stronger
position
in
terms
of
how
we
make
notifications.
K
A
K
Other
sorry,
just
the
other
point
that
you
raised
there
council
and
the
issue
about
serious
harm
is
about
applying
professional
judgment,
and
so
there
is
something
about
the
fact
that
there
is.
There
are
differences
nationally
that
the
the
national
panel
have
said.
Annie
hudson
has
said
herself
that
it's
difficult
because
it
is
a
it
is
a
subjective
decision.
It's
not
it's!
It's
not
this
one
situation
does
me.
Take
this
one
situation.
Doesn't
you
have
to
apply
judgment
in
terms
of
coming
to
that
consideration.
A
L
L
It
seems
strange
to
me
that
if
two
of
that
body
turn
around
and
say,
we
think
there
is
a
need
for
notification
that
the
third
part,
even
though
it
being
the
important
this
the
senior
power
that
can
make
the
decisions,
turns
around
and
says
we're
going
to
ignore
the
advice
of
these
other
experts
and
we're
going
to
make
a
judgment,
not
necessarily
by
giving
any
sort
of
reasoning
but
by
making
it.
But
by
just
saying
we
don't
accept
this.
So
therefore
it
won't
got
a
notification.
L
L
Now
the
problem
is
to
me
that
if
we
are
safeguarding
children,
why
should
we
bar
one
other
step
towards
making
sure
that
adds
to
that
learning
that
adds
to
that
information
and
so
on?
It
seems
very
strange
to
me
that
we
we
block
it
off
now.
I
don't
know
why
that
happens.
Perhaps
sir
can
explain
why
it's
why
it's
done,
but
the
other
thing
is
and
the
the
thing
that
brought
this
here.
L
K
I
mean
again,
I
can't
go
into
the
specifics
around
the
the
the
case,
but
but
a
number
of
things
happen
over
a
a
period
of
time
in
in
terms
of
that
particular
matter,
and
there
are,
there
is
context
above
and
beyond
the
the
headline
that's
reported
in
in
in
the
news
and
that
you've
talked
about
that
I
can't
get
into
into
here.
K
You
know
it
would
be
in
the
course
of
our
business,
something
that
we
would
have
wanted
to
bring
here.
I
think
we
would
have
picked
it
up,
given
that
we've
got
the
annual
report
going
to
executive
board,
but
I
you
know
that
doesn't
preclude
the
fact
that
I've
apologized
that
we
could
have
brought
it
here
sooner.
L
J
Just
to
come
back
on
a
couple
of
points,
we
don't
have
a
fear
of
notifications.
We've
we've
made
five
recently
as
sal
outlined,
and
also
we're
not
ignoring
the
views
of
health
or
the
police
at
all.
J
We
work
extensively
with
them
and
we
work
very
positively
and
productively
with
them
from
the
front
line
to
the
most
senior
level,
but
we
have
disagreed
with
them
on
on
a
couple
of
occasions,
and
as
has
been
outlined,
it
is
the
local
authority
decision,
as
it
is
set
out
in
law,
whether
or
not
we
notify
and
sal
makes
that
decision,
based
on
all
the
information
that
he
has.
J
That
includes
the
input
from
health,
the
input
from
the
police,
all
cells,
other
knowledge
that
he
has
with
the
case
his
professional
experience
and
other
advice
that
he
might
take.
So
it's
absolutely
not
the
case
that
we're
ignoring
people's
views,
but
we
just
do
disagree,
which
happens
when
you're
working
in
partnership
with
regard
to.
J
Obviously,
we
are
working
in
an
arena.
You
know
of
the
safety
and
protection
of
children,
so
we
are
always
on
any
day
supporting
a
significant
number
of
children
and
families.
Whether
it's
risk
of
harm
in
our
role
is
to
keep
those
children
and
those
families
safe
and
together,
where
it's
safe
for
them
to
be
together.
Thank
you.
H
Thank
you
chair.
I
don't
think
anyone
questions
the
commitment
of
the
children's
services
team,
but
I
have
to
say:
there's
a
new
member
a
first
year
member
of
children's
family
scrutiny
board
up
until
this
point
I
had
absolute
faith
in
our
services.
H
H
H
The
reasons
why
you
are
different
to
the
other
three
partners,
and
I
include
the
independent
chair
as
a
partner,
so
I
I
wonder
whether
cell
you
can
you
can
at
least
make
the
board
aware
of
why
you
haven't
shared
the
rationale
and
whether
that's
common.
Secondly,
this
system
has
been
in
place
over
two
years.
H
There
are
children
at
risk.
I
can't
sit
here
and
listen
to
people
say
we
need
time
to
get
it
right.
We
have
to
get
it
right
quickly,
because
children
are
at
risk
and
two
years
in
since
introducing
it
in
september,
19,
it's
a
poor
reason.
I
won't
call
it
an
excuse
to
say
that
we're
still
working
through
the
process,
we
should
have
that
process.
It
should
be
a
priority.
We're
a
child-friendly
city
and
safeguarding
our
children
and
young
people
is
our
primary
aim.
First
and
foremost,
and
lastly
in
hindsight,
would
you
do
anything
differently.
K
Okay,
so
I
think
in
terms
of
children
at
risk,
I've
already
outlined
that
you
know
we.
There
are
large
numbers
of
children
that
we
are
working
with
every
single
day
of
the
week.
So
this
isn't
about
us
not
being
involved
in
supporting
or
protecting
children.
You
know
we
work
with
5800
children
at
any
given
time
either
children
in
need
children
who
are
subject
to
a
child
protection
plan
or
children
who
are
in
in
the
care
of
the
local
authority.
K
It's
not
about
the
fact
that
we're
not
involved
or
trying
to
support
children
and,
as
I've
said
already,
there's
a
range
of
learning
that
stems
from
those
cases
that
are
notified,
but
also
in
the
figures
that
you
heard
before
there
are
a
number
of
cases
where
we
are
undertaking
learning
where
notifications
notifications
haven't
been
made
without
getting
into
the
specifics
of
the
one
the
earlier
incident
I
mean
I
do,
I
think,
there's
something
about
the
context
of
the
the
time
over
which
those
matters
came
to
light
and
how
those
decisions
were
made,
and
I
have
considered
since
I
was
made
aware
last
week
of
what
was
in
the
public
domain
and
what's
come
out
of
the
criminal
trial.
K
A
M
Yeah
just
to
come
back
on
the
point
in
relation
to
rationale.
Jasmine
just
said
that
we
are
we're
currently
reviewing
the
notification
process
which
we
are,
but
last
year
on
the
back
of
discussions
around
the
initial
matter
that
was
discussed
this
morning.
We
have
agreed
a
process
whereby,
at
the
earliest
opportunity,
where
either
the
local
authority
is
considering
that
there
may
be
a
need
for
a
notification
or
whereby
a
partner
feels
that
there
is
a
situation,
serious
incident.
M
I
have
an
immediate
contact
with
jazvinder
I
make
jasminder
aware
we
then
share
information
with
the
partners
immediately,
so
that
the
partners
can
contribute
to
the
very
initial
discussions
about
individual
matters
and
can
also
share
information
in
order
to
inform
the
decision-making
in
the
event
where
we
feel,
after
all
of
that
collaboration
that
discussion,
the
sharing
of
information,
the
reviewing
of
that
information,
that
the
criteria
for
notification
has
not
been
met,
and
it
is
a
professional
judgment
and
it
is,
it
is
a
serious
responsibility
to
apply
the
criteria
correctly.
M
G
You
chet,
I
have
a
question
each
for
councillor,
venna,
sal
and
julie.
Before
that
I
think
it'd
be
helpful,
rebecca
you
were
going
to
come
back
on
a
description
of
serious
harm
and
that
might
assist
with
the
answers
to
my
questions.
F
I
do
indeed
thank
you
very
much.
Councillor,
stevenson
and,
and
the
committee
will
also
have
heard
just
vinda
refer
to
the
definition
expanded
upon
from
working
together,
but
the
statutory
definition
as
contained
within
the
children
act
is
serious.
Harm
includes
serious
or
long-term
impairment
of
mental
health
or
intellectual,
emotional,
social
or
behavioral
development.
G
Okay,
thank
you
for
that
rebecca
councillor.
Venna,
notwithstanding
your
comments
earlier
from
a
policy
point
of
view
not
going
into
any
specific
cases
from
what
we've
just
heard.
Do
you
therefore
agree
that
in
any
case
where
there
is
child
protection
involved-
and
there
is
a
case
of
serious
child
sexual
exploitation,
there
should
always
be
a
notification
to
the
national
board
for
an
independent
review.
J
J
G
J
G
J
My
view
is
that
each
case
needs
to
be
considered
in
the
multi-agency
way
that
it
is
whether
there's
a
need
to
be
notification
or
not.
I
do
not
make
that
decision.
I
will
never
make
that
decision.
The
decision
is
made.
The
decision
is
notified
by
the
director
of
children's
services
after
they
have
had
a
conversation
with
the
statutory
partners,
which
are
the
police
and
health.
That's
my
response.
G
My
the
reason
for
asking
that
is
because,
when
austed
came
to
do
their
front
door
review,
one
of
the
things
that
they
raised
was
to
paraphrase
effectively
an
issue
where
children's
services
were
marking
their
own
homework,
and
that
came
in
through
the
process
of
audit
reviews
and,
against
paraphrase
austin
suggested
that
there
needs
to
be
more
of
an
independent
view
on
audits
and
I
think
that's
important,
because
what
what
we've
heard
is
that
there
are
multiple
ways
to
review
a
case,
and
I
I
don't
don't
disagree
with
that.
G
There
are
the
importance
of
a
national.
A
notification.
Review,
though,
is
that
it's
not
leads
marking
its
own
homework.
It's
an
independent
view
at
a
national
level
to
see
what
lessons
can
be
learned,
not
just
in
leeds
but
across
the
whole
country
where
cases
occur.
I
think
that's
why
it's
very
important
that
the
national
review
notification
is
reconsidered,
as
as
jasvinder
has
said.
My
next
question
is
to
julie,
sorry,
to
put
you
on
the
spot,
julia
but
links
to
what
I've
just
said
about
austen.
G
At
the
last
scrutiny
board
meeting,
we
discussed
the
fact
that
the
police
and
health
are
only
present
at
seven
out
of
ten
meetings
at
present
of
serious
safeguarding
reviews,
and
in
that
meeting
I
I've
just
got
the
transcript.
I
asked
a
specific
question,
which
was
in
terms
of
the
meetings
themselves.
G
What
would
happen
if
there
was
disagreement
say,
for
example,
if
the
police
thought
further
action
needed
to
be
taken,
but
the
local
authority
or
other
partners
felt
that
they
didn't?
Who
gets
the
final
say
on
the
decision?
Julie.
Your
response
to
me
was
that
more
often
than
not,
there
is
consensus,
and
you
said
we
do
have
a
resolutions
process
which
sits
with
the
safeguarding
children's
partnership.
G
M
So
when
you
asked
me
about,
I
think
you
asked
me
whether
there
was
disagreements
within
strategy
discussions.
If
the
three
key
partners
involved
in
strategy
discussions
had
a
difference
of
opinion,
I
didn't
agree
what
the
outcome
of
that
was
and
my
response
related
to
strategy
discussions
that
actually
you
know
often
in
strategy
discussions.
We
do
debate
information,
we
do
share
information.
M
The
resolutions
process
is
there
in
relation
to
strategy
discussions,
and
you
know
it
is
not
something
that
is
utilized
in
relation
to
strategy
discussions
or
the
quality
of
strategy
discussions
to
a
high
extent.
So
I
suppose
I
just
want
to
be
clear
that
you
asked
me
a
particular
question
in
relation
to
strategy
discussions
and
I
responded
in
relation
to
strategy
discussions,
not
in
relation
to
notifications.
G
No,
thank
you.
That's
a
fair
point.
Thank
you.
I'll
clarify
that,
in
terms
of
the
reaching
consensus
point,
then,
when
we
get
to
a
situation
as
tony
is
expressed,
where
two
out
three
partners
have
a
disagreement,
do
we
think
that
anybody
can
answer
this,
that
there
is
a
case
for
us
as
a
council
to
be
making
representations
to
ministers
alongside
judge
winter,
to
make
the
case
that
it
shouldn't
be
a
decision
held
just
with
the
local
authority?
G
It
should
be
what
jesus
argued
for
earlier.
The
the
board
itself
can
make
a
collective
view
together.
J
That
is
what
it
was
used
to
be
and
it
was
changed.
So
I
think
even
none
of
us
have
the
detailed
knowledge
of
why
that
was.
I
think
you'd
need
to
look
back
at
why
the
ellen
wood
review
suggested
that
change
and
why
they
felt
that
the
decision
needed
to
be
one
in
one
of
the
bodies
and
they
and
the
body
that
was
selected
was
the
local
authority
which,
as
I
said
earlier,
rests
the
responsibility
in
social
work.
K
I
do
take
all
of
these
matters
very
seriously,
councillor
stevens,
and
I
hope
that
you
that
you
know
that
and
yes,
I
will.
J
A
Yeah,
thank
you
councillor
carter.
Next,
I've
got
two
other
speakers,
I'm
very
conscious
of
the
time.
I
don't
want
to
stop
the
debate,
but
we
do
shortly
need
to
to
wrap
up
and
consider
what
next
steps
we
want
to
take.
There
are
two
recommendations
in
the
paper,
but
we
do
need
to
to
move
things
along.
So
if
I
bring
councillor
carter
in
please.
E
Thank
you.
This
is
my
first
time
at
this
panel,
so
it's
been
a
lot
for
me
to
get
my
head
around.
However,
I
have
lots
of
case
work
involving
children's
services
and
in
my
role
on
the
police
crime
panel,
I
meet
regularly
with
the
chief
superintendent
who
has
raised
concerns
about
the
way
children's
services
are
handling
reviews
with
me.
E
There's
lots
of
things
I
don't
understand.
I
can
never
understand
why
perpetrators
are
allowed
to
on
the
recommendations
of
children's
services,
get
their
clutches
and
are
allowed
to
look
after
children,
even
though
they've
committed
a
crime
against
children
against
an
adult,
and
it
could
be
a
sexual,
violent
crime.
So
there's
lots
of
things
I
don't
understand,
but
perhaps
you
could
clarify
this
for
me
in
terms
of
notifications
to
leads
compared
to
other
authorities.
Do
we
have
any
information
as
to
what
other
authorities
in
west
yorkshire
have
brought
forward
for
notification.
F
Information
is
also
being
requested
of
other
core
cities.
F
F
So,
for
instance,
I
can
confirm
that
for
bradford
between
2019
to
2020,
they
made
five,
or
rather
they
had
five
rapid
reviews
and
from
20
20
to
21.
They
had
seven
wakefield
in
the
similar
periods
of
19
and
20,
had
five
and
in
wakefield
in
sorry
in
20
20
to
21.
F
A
L
I
listened
to
this
debate
and
I
don't
think
anybody's
explained
to
us
what
the
advantages
the
present
arrangements
are.
Obviously
it
was
done
for
a
reason
and
you
can't
speak
about
individual
cases,
but
could
just
outline
why
we
do
it
this
way
and
what
the
benefits
are.
J
J
It
may
have
been
considered
that
it
would
be
more
beneficial
to
have
that
decision
made
by
one
party
rather
than
all
three
trying
to
come
to
the
consensus
view
now,
whether
that's
the
right
decision
or
not,
we've
been
debating
today.
It's
not
our
decision
to
do
it
that
way.
As
a
council,
it's
the
it's
what's
set
out
in
legislation
that
the
responsibilities
are
notifies
with
the
local
authority.
B
Thank
you
chair.
The
first
thing
I
will
say
is
that
I
actually
welcome
the
system
of
rapid
reviews.
The
advantage
is
that
you
do
have
that
conversation
between
partners
at
the
table
to
have
conversations
about
the
most
serious
cases.
B
The
important
word
here
is
collaboration,
and
it
is
about
us
using
our
judgment
and
with
all
due
respect,
and
I
take
on
board
the
views.
Councillor
venna
made
about
peer
advice,
and
you
know,
children's
services
are
professional
views,
but
we
take
on
board
the
professional
views
of
all
our
partners.
B
You
know
these
are
people
in
their
professional
capacity
that
sit
around
a
review
advisory
group
very
experienced
people
in
this
space.
We
consider
all
the
views
so
actually
the
annie
hudson
would
make
the
point
that
rapid
reviews
is
about
rapid
learning.
It's
about
the
city,
looking
at
cases
that
meet
the
criteria
for
a
notification
and
learning
very
quickly-
and
I
take
on
the
point
that
we
do
have
other
avenues
of
learning
and
we
do
consider
that.
But
it's
not
rapid
learning
it
is.
B
You
know
that
that,
in
terms
of,
if
it
meets
the
threshold,
then
we
want
to
learn
quickly
and
we
want
to
learn
fast
and
going
back
to
councillor
stevenson's
point
I
mean
my
view
is:
if
the
case
meets
the
criteria
of
serious
harm,
then
surely
it
should
be
notified
that
that
that's
my
view,
but
the
conversations
around
the
partnership
table
at
the
review
advisory
group
are
based
on
scoping,
are
based
on
evidence
and
are
based
on.
Does
this
meet
the
criteria
of
all
partners?
We
have
that
conversation
in
depth.
B
B
Work
is
the
views
of
all
partners
in
this
space
and
the
considerations
of
all
partners
need
to
be
considered,
and
that
includes,
if
the
executive
board,
if
I
take
something
to
my
executive
board,
where
I'm
feeling
that
there
needs
to
be
another
view
because
they
haven't
reached
that
consensus
because
of
a
disagreement
at
the
rear
advisory
group.
These
are
experts
in
their
field,
very
senior
people
who
are
having
that
conversation,
and
if,
at
that
level
there
is
still
disagreement,
then
I
I'm
pleased
to
hear
that
sal
is
going
to
reflect.
B
He's
made
the
point
that
he's
pleased
to
hear
you
may
consider
retrospective
notification,
because
that's
what
I'm
asking
for,
because
it's
okay
to
look
at
the
case
and
reflect,
but
where
partners
are
being
very
clear
and
given
the
evidence,
is
evidence-based
and
can
evidence
that
then
surely
there
should
be
consideration
for
that.
And
may
I
also
say
that
council
event,
I
absolutely
regardless
of
my
passion.
C
Thank
you,
chad,
a
lot
of
discussion,
and
it
seems
to
be
about
things
that
I
didn't
think
we
were
being
asked
to
discuss
to
consider,
because
a
new
system,
because
an
old
system
didn't
seem
to
work,
is
not
within
our
sphere
of
influence,
the
operation
of
children's
services
being
questioned.
I
didn't
think
that
was
in
our
sphere
of
this
meeting.
C
I
thought
we
were
here
and
it
might
be
rebecca
that
can
answer.
This
is
because
our
chair,
counselor
lam,
was
not
informed
about
this
refusal
to
have
a
rapid
review.
L
A
H
A
Sorry
yeah,
my
view
is
the
order
of
events
and,
as
I
see
it,
the
chair,
the
independent
chair
of
the
safeguarding
partnership,
has
raised
serious
concerns
with
the
council
about
the
process
of
notification,
not
the
system,
the
way
it's
being
implemented
in
leads,
and
my
viewers
chair.
A
It's
not
set
down
it's
a
matter
of
judgment
for
the
director
and
the
executive
member,
what
they
bring
to
me
and
therefore
to
the
board
they
chose
not
to,
and
I
think
they
were
wrong,
and
it
goes
to
the
wider
point
and
there's
two
issues
which
I
was
going
to
raise
at
the
end,
which
I
feel
have
been
skirted
round
that
we
can
only
do
our
job
as
a
scrutiny
board
effectively
based
on
what
we
know
and
we
rely
on
the
executive
member
and
the
director
telling
us
pretty
much
everything
good
and
bad
so
that
we
can
then
decide
how
to
how
to
support
them
as
a
critical
friend
in
making
improvements
and
in
the
interests
of
children
and
the
other
issue,
which
I
feel
has
been
skirted
around
a
little
bit
in
the
responses
is
I
I
feel
one
of
the
key
points.
A
Chas
vinder
was
making
is
there
is
an
awful
lot
in
these
cases
that
we
don't
know
it
relies
on
partners
being
informed
that
there
is
a
case
that
they
might
consider
warrant
a
notification
and
the
answer
to
one
of
my
questions
earlier.
Was
we
don't
know
how
many
other
cases
there
are
they
could
be?
They
could
be
many
and
we're
not
potentially
learning
the
lessons,
and
that's
that
to
me
is
what
we're
looking
at.
We
have
just
touched
on
a
lot
of
issues
which
are
useful
context,
but
for
me
those
are
the
key
issues.
M
Could
is
it
okay
if
I
come
back
in
counseling,
I'm
just
on
two
points,
just
in
relation
to
jasminder's
comments
about
collaboration
and
the
importance
of
information
sharing
and
professional
respect,
you
know
having
an
open,
healthy
culture.
You
know
it's
all
about
respecting
different
expertise,
and
certainly
it
is
my
view
that
we
do
do
that
and
in
the
conversations
that
I
have
had
with
police
colleagues
with
health
colleagues
with
the
lscp,
when
we've
pulled
information
from
all
the
partners,
we've
reviewed
that
we've
discussed
it.
M
We've
debated
it,
we've
taken
legal
advice,
we've
taken
advice
from
other
directors,
other
local
authorities
and
we've
looked
at
that
in
the
round
because,
as
it
currently
stands
and
as
others
have
said
it-
you
know
it's
with
our
control
at
the
moment
as
it
currently
stands.
That
is
our
responsibility.
M
M
One
of
the
things
I
wanted
to
say
just
to
make
clear
that,
within
the
current
review,
that's
going
on
in
relation
to
the
notification
process.
We
have
all
recognized
that
as
something
that
we
need
to
look
at.
So
you
know
what
I
suppose
as
part
of
that
review.
M
What
do
we
do
when
there
is
disagreement,
because,
ultimately,
it
is
the
responsibility
of
children
and
families
to
make
that
decision,
and
we
must
do
that
using
our
professional
judgment,
taking
into
account
all
of
the
information
all
of
the
views
from
partners,
but
we
have
to
maintain
our
professional
integrity
and
judgment
at
the
same
at
the
same
time,
just
in
relation
as
opposed
to
partners
key
partners
not
being
aware
whenever
there
is
a
serious
incident
in
the
city
whenever
a
child
suffers
serious
or
significant
harm.
M
There
is
a
strategy
discussion
and
that
strategy
discussion
involves
health,
police
and
children,
social
work,
so
at
the
earliest
opportunity,
information
about
serious
incidents,
serious
harm,
significant
harm,
is
shown
shared
and
is
known
by
the
three
key
statutory
bodies.
So
I
just
wanted
to
make
that
point.
Thank
you.
A
Thank
you.
I've
got
a
final
comment
from
council
carter
and
then
I'm
going
to
ask
for
responses
on
that
and
I'm
going
to
ask
after
that,
sal
counter
levenna
julie
and
then
jazz
vinder
to
give
us
their
view
on
what
the
next
steps
should
be
for
the
board
and
we
can
agree
if
we
think
that's
the
appropriate
things
or
if
anyone's
got
any
other
suggestions,
so
it
counts
the
card
to
please.
E
In
the
rotherham
inquiry,
the
inspector
said
that
the
local
authority
had
been
more
concerned
about
their
reputational
damage,
and
I
wonder
if
well,
the
law
is
very
clear
that
children's
services
have
the
last
word
on
calling
a
review.
But
I
wonder
if
we
didn't
ought
to
try
to
take
this
nationally
so
that
all
partners
have
the
ability
to
call
in
a
review,
because
clearly
they
have
a
lot
of
value
to
add
to
the
case
and
equally.
So
I
would
imagine
as
children's
services.
E
A
Thank
you.
So,
if
I'd,
if
I
just
go
in
order
please
and
if
anyone's
got
a
comment
on
on
councillor
carter's
suggestion,
that
would
be
helpful,
but
we
have
recommendations
which
is
first
and
foremost
that
we've
we
have
considered
the
information
presented
and
I
think
we
absolutely
would
want
unless
I
see
any
dissenters,
an
in-depth
update
once
the
review
work
has
concluded.
A
I
think
everyone's
agreeing
with
that.
We
then
determine
what
other
further
scrutiny
activities
required.
So
I'd
really
welcome
sal's,
council
of
enemies,
julie's
and
jasmine's
view
on
that
in
that
order,
so
sal.
If
I
can
start
with
you,
please.
K
I
I
mean,
I
think
the
first
bit
is
the
bit
for
us
to
complete,
initially,
which
is
complete
the
review
and
bring
a
further
in-depth
report,
because
I
think
setting
out
this
in
a
way
that
can
help
people
not
confuse
different
processes,
because
I
think
there
is
a
little
bit
of
that
happening
so
that
people
do
understand
which
part
of
the
system
we're
talking
about.
And
what
that
what?
That
means.
K
I
think
if
we
can
bring
that
back
in
the
first
instance
and
then
consider
further
action
at
that
point.
As
I
say,
we
are
continuing
dialogue
and
nationally
as
well,
so
that
will
feed
into
the
the
review
that
we're
undertaking.
J
I
don't
have
much
much
to
add
to
that
chair,
I'm
very
happy
to
bring
back
the
review
report
to
discuss
that
further
with
you
when
that's
completed,
and
as
we've
referred
to
several
times,
we
have
annie
hudson
directly
involved
with
the
sim
leads.
We've
sought
her
opinion
on
a
specific
case,
but
we're
also
discussing
at
a
national
level
the
national
implications
of
some
of
the
challenges
that
we're
having
around
the
partnership
and
the
way
decision
making
happens
at
the
moment.
But
I
think,
as
sal
said,
I
think
it
I
think
it's.
J
M
And
I
don't
really
have
anything
much
to
add
other
than
I
think.
As
has
been
explained
this
morning,
changes
have
already
been
put
in
place
ahead
of
the
outcome
of
the
current
review.
So
I
think
I've
already
referenced
the
fact
that,
when
a
serious
incident
happens
where
we
are
considering
that
notification
may
be
necessary
that
I
contact
john
spinder
immediately
and
then
there's
a
process
followed
except
I
just
wondered
it
might
be
helpful
for
us
to
outline
some
of
the
changes
that
we
have
made
in
the
interim.
B
The
police
have
invested
time
and
capacity
in
that
in
health,
and
I
understand
social
care
identifying
a
person
to
also
contribute
at
least
one
or
two
days
a
week
towards
that
review
and
because
there
are
limitations
in
terms
of
what
we
can
achieve,
and
so
we
do
need
that
capacity.
To
do
that.
B
The
other
thing
I
would
say
is:
I
do
support
advocating
things
nationally.
K
That,
okay,
that's
okay,
just
that
our
principal
social
worker
is
has
already
met
with
police
colleagues
and
is
involved
in
the
review
that
is
being
undertaken,
and
a
number
of
us
have
also
spoken
to
the
lead
person
from
the
from
the
police.
I
think.
K
Whilst
jasmine
just
point
about
there
being
a
tripartite
arrangement
elsewhere,
I
think
you're
referring
to
within
the
region.
My
understanding
is
that
it
is
still
very
clear
that
the
decision
is
made
by
the
director
of
children's
services
in
that
authority
who
I've
spoken
to
about
it
and
they
don't
have.
K
A
Okay,
so
in
terms
of
next
steps
for
the
board,
I
think
about
the
key
next
step
is
that
we
wait
for
the
the
review
to
be
completed
and
report
back
to
us
councillor
gruen.
E
This
is
an
attempt
to
be
constructive
and
helpful
in
terms
of
next
steps.
I,
for
me,
the
one
part
of
this
morning's
debate
that's
been
missing,
is
to
fully
understand
the
rationale
for
the
local
authorities
decision
and,
quite
understandably,
you
felt
that
you
can't
share
that
because
it
would
be
case
specific
and
that's
not
appropriate,
and
I
completely
accept
that.
E
But
if,
in
the
next
paper
that
comes
or
in
the
next
meeting,
we
have
you,
you
could
think
about
describing
that
in
generic
terms.
So,
for
example,
you
must
have
considered
a
number
of
criteria
and
perhaps
you
put
much
greater
weight
on
on
one
than
the
others
for
specific
reasons,
case
specific
reasons
and
that
might
have
influenced
your
decision
to
to
not
not
do
a
notification.
E
I
think
that's
the
bit
of
the
rationale
we
haven't
understood
and
I
think
if
we
did
understand
it,
we
perhaps
would
feel
a
lot
more
comfortable
than
we
do.
And
so
my
suggestion
is
is
that
you
try
and
find
a
way
sal
of
describing
that
without
it
being
case
specific,
so
that
we
understand
the
quality
and
depth
of
the
process.
The
local
authority
went
through,
I
think
julia
was
making
reference
to
that,
but
it
was
so
generic.
A
G
Just
looking
to
that
second
recommendation,
what
further
solution
activities
required?
I
think
what
sticking
in
my
mind
from
this
morning
is
that
the-
and
this
goes
to
council
gruen's
point
actually
that,
whether
or
not
we
are
presented
with
the
full
information
of
the
case
or
in
generic
terms
or
otherwise
it's
not
our
job
as
a
scrutiny
board
to
almost
review
those
individual
cases.
The
fact
is
that
the
independent
children
safeguarding
chair,
whose
argument
job
it
is,
has
raised
these
concerns
with
us,
and
we
cannot
miss
that
point
in
our
deliberations
this
morning.
G
I've
never
seen
anything
like
that
happen
before
in
terms
of
I
was
going
to
use
the
word
whistleblowing
earlier,
and
it
clearly
isn't,
but
it's
got
a
whiff
of
that
in
a
sense
that
somebody's
bringing
a
concern
to
us
from
within
in
terms
of
what's
happening,
and
I
think
that
what
we
can't
miss
moving
forward
is
that
issue
about
whether
it
is
appropriate
that
the
legislation
changed
so
that
just
a
local
authority
has
the
decision-making
role
and
jasmine
has
given
us
her
view.
G
Her
professional
view
on
how
that
should
work,
counselor
didn't
have
an
opinion
on
it.
I'm
quite
clear,
I
think,
from
what
I've
heard
and
I
the
word
review
in
2016
was
around
child
child
deaths
and
I
from
what
I've
heard
this
morning.
I
review
that.
I
think
it's
probably
sensible.
I
agree
with
jazvinder's
view
and
the
government
probably
got
it
wrong
when
they
made
that
that
change.
G
So
I
wonder
once
the
reviews
out
whether
there
is
an
opportunity
for
this
scrutiny
board
to
meet
with
scrutiny
boards
in
other
core
cities
and
perhaps
have
a
dialogue
with
the
commons
select
committee
as
well
around
whether
we
feel
representations
collectively
need
to
be
made
to
government
as
to
why
it
is
the
view
of
of
our
independent
chair
that
is
not
working
as
it
should
be,
and
whether
that's
just
something
that's
going
wrong
here
in
leeds
or
whether
other
local
authorities
are
having
the
same
view,
and
if
that
is
the
case,
then
we
almost
need
to
come
together
and
lobby
higher
up
as
one
body
collectively,
and
I
think
everybody
else
in
the
panel
might
disagree.
G
A
So
is
everybody
agreed
that
the
next
step
is
to
to
hear
that
report
with
the
suggestions
councillor
gruen
has
made
and
to
really
keep
a
strong
watching
brief
on
this,
and
I
personally
cannot
get
away
from
the
fact
that
the
independent
chair
of
the
safeguarding
children's
partnership
has
very
serious
concerns
about
how
this
issue
is
working
in
leeds
and
that
didn't
come
to
us
and
it
should
have,
and
people
need
to
reflect
on
that
as
well
as
a
step
and
to
make
sure
we
retain
confidence
that
we
are
getting
all
of
the
information
that
we
need
to
be
able
to
scrutinize
properly.
A
So
on
that
basis,
everyone
happy
that
that
is
the
the
outcome
of
the
meeting
that
we're
going
to
get
the
review
and
then
we'll
decide
what
further
action.
But
we
will
keep
a
watching
brief.
I
would
suggest
when
we
have
that
review,
we
invite
all
of
the
partners
to
the
table
to
share
their
view
of
it,
so
that
would
be
jazvinder
as
the
chair,
the
police,
partner
and
the
health
partner,
and
I
think
it
would
be
useful
to
hear
all
of
those
views
if
everyone's
agreeable.
A
B
Chair,
I
would
find
that
really
helpful,
because
I'm
mindful
of
the
fact
that
two
executive
board
members
are
not
representative
here
from
the
police
and
health
or
we,
I
did
have
conversations
with
them
yesterday.
I
do
think
it's
important
that
they
are
represented
at
future
meetings.
A
Thank
you.
We
will
do
our
best
to
make
sure
that
happens
so
first,
I
appreciate
this
has
taken
a
lot
of
time.
I
still
believe,
just
as
I
did
at
the
start
of
the
meeting
and
last
week
that
it
was
essential
that
this
came
to
scrutiny
at
the
earliest
opportunity,
and
I
think
we've
we've
done
the
issue
as
much
justice
as
we
can
with
the
information
we've
got
now,
so
I
thank
everybody
who's
taken
part.
A
I
particularly
thank
jaspinda
for
for
taking
the
time
and
for
the
work
that
she's
doing
in
her
role
and
we're
really
grateful
to
her
for
coming
to
to
share
her
concerns
with
us
this
morning.
In
terms
of
the
rest
of
the
agenda,
I'm
going
to
suggest,
I
appreciate
the
time
is
later.
We
normally
would
I'm
determined
that
we
take
the
future
in
mind
strategy.
A
I
item
seven.
I
will
propose
that
we
defer
all
the
other
items
except
for
the
work
schedule
and
date
and
time
of
next
meeting,
but
I'm
sure
I'm
not
the
only
person
who
would
benefit
from
a
comfort
break
at
this
precise
moment.
But
if
I
can
encourage
people
to
be
back
in
five
minutes,
so
we
can
get
going
and
turn
the
microphones
off.
So
the
webcast
doesn't
pick
it
up.
Thank
you.
A
A
Okay,
welcome
back
everybody
if
everyone
could
take
their
seats,
please.
I've
been
generous
with
the
five
minutes
already,
so
we
will
get
started.
We're
moving
on
to
item
seven,
which
is
future
in
mind,
lead
strategy
update
in
november
2020.
A
We
were
keen
to
continue
monitoring
the
implementation
of
this
refresh
strategy
and
therefore
the
leeds
clinical
commissioning
group
has
led
on
providing
an
update
to
the
board,
which
sets
out
the
current
and
future
work
being
undertaken.
That's
linked
to
the
strategy
and
aims
to
drive
forward
improvement
in
terms
of
children
and
young
people's
outcomes,
just
to
explain
I'm
not
sure
if
everybody
on
the
board
is
aware
that
a
full
offstead
inspection
will
begin
in
the
city
next
monday
and
as
such,
you
can
imagine.
Salz
and
julie's
commitments
are
quite
stretched
at
the
moment.
A
So
I'm
grateful
for
the
time
they've
given
they
did
advise
me
at
the
start
that
they'd
struggle
to
stay
beyond
this
time.
So
that's
why
they've
they've
left
but
we're
in
safe
hands.
I
feel
anyway,
with
the
with
those
that
are
that
are
left.
So
we
know
council
of
venna
anyway,
but
perhaps
if
I
could
ask
jane
bathgate
roche
to
introduce
herself
and
emily
griffiths,
please.
D
A
Thank
you.
So
can
I
ask
councillor
vena
if
you
have
any
introductory
comments,
please
yeah.
J
Thank
you.
So
I
was
just
eating
a
biscuit.
Thank
you.
Thank
you
for
the
biscuits
as
well.
I'm
always
really
happy
to
introduce
the
future
in
mind.
As
most
people
know,
it's
mental
health
is
my
particular
area
of
interest,
and
I'm
really
proud
that
I
set
up
some
of
the
services
that
are
referred
to,
that
that
were
set
up
under
this.
This
strategy.
J
In
my
previous
role
and
so,
and
I
now
chair
the
future
of
mine
board,
which
is
which
is
a
great
privilege
and
the
strategy
was
refreshed
last
year,
which
was
really
timely
because
it
meant
we
could
do
it
in
the
context
of
covid,
which
we
know
has
had
a
really
massive
impact
on
children,
young
people's
mental
health
and
well-being,
and
it
also
references
the
impact
of
trauma,
the
impact
of
poverty.
J
It
links
us
to
the
work,
that's
happening
in
the
city
and
regionally
around
trauma.
It's
a
strategy.
It's
not
just
a
mental
health
strategy,
it's
about
children's
mental
health
and
well-being
in
its
widest
sense
and
there's
some
links
between
future
mind
and
the
and
the
all-age
mental
health
strategy
and
the
adult
mental
health
partnership
board,
and
we
have
some
joint
priorities.
J
So
transition
between
children,
services
and
adult
services
is
a
priority
for
both
boards
and
the
work
around
trauma
is
a
priority
for
both
boards
and
we
agreed
that
we,
after
the
strategy,
was
refreshed
last
year
that
we
would
then
bring
it
back
a
number
of
months
later,
which
is
what
we're
doing
today
so
they're.
My
introductory
comments.
Thank
you.
Chair.
D
Thank
you.
I
might
just
give
an
overview
to
the
committee
first,
if
I
may
so,
the
the
report,
in
its
broadest
sense,
is
to,
as
counterfeiters
said,
note
and
recognize
the
developments
under
the
strategy.
We
also
really
want
to
highlight
the
strength
of
the
partnership
working
in
developing
this
strategy,
which
stretches
across
health
services,
education,
council
services
in
the
third
sector
and
thank
those
involved
for
their
continued
commitment
during
this
time.
D
And
we
need
to
work
together
to
address
the
health
inequalities
which
have
been
particularly
exposed
and
widened
in
the
last
few
years
and,
for
example,
looking
at
those
impacts
on
children
who
live
in
poverty
and
have
experienced
trauma,
have
special
educational
needs
or
who
are
looked
after
in
our
care
system.
I'm
going
to
hand
over
to
jane
to
talk
about
some
of
the
specific
developments
which
are
quite
exciting
and
the
ways
in
which
we
are
trying
to
respond
to
the
covered
impacts.
To
maintain
that
positive
work.
I
Thank
you
and
then
councillor,
benner
and
emily
have
done
an
excellent
overview
for
me
of
the
the
the
paper
so
I'll.
Just
talk
briefly
about
some
of
the
areas
of
development
that
sit
within
the
strategy,
particularly
in
relation
to
seven
priority
areas
that
yourself
to
the
board
had
a
hand
in
developing
almost
a
year
ago
and
there's
some
really
great
pieces
of
work
that
have
been
happening
as
emily
said
as
a
partnership
across
these
areas.
I
Each
of
the
the
work
streams
that
are
detailed
within
the
report
are
led
by
a
different
partner
agency
and
working
with
a
multi-agency
group
of
professionals
in
order
to
lead
some
of
this
work
forward.
I
So
just
to
pick
up
on
some
of
the
key
points
that
are
detailed.
Obviously,
we
have
a
strong
focus
on
prevention,
that's
led
by
our
public
health
colleagues,
but
with
other
services
represented
around
the
table,
really
thinking
about.
How
can
we
promote
positive
mental
health
and
well-being
and
reduce
stigma
across
all
our
services
and
provide
that
level
of
support
for
our
children
and
young
people?
I
I'm
not
going
to
go
into
too
much
detail
and
teach
these,
because
you've
got
you've
got
the
report
and
I'm
happy
to
take
questions
at
the
end.
One
of
our
biggest
areas
of
priorities
round
about
support.
It
always
feels
like
quite
a
short
paragraph,
but
there's
a
lot
in
there
in
terms
of
driving
down
waiting
times.
I
Increasing
access
and
ensuring
children
and
young
people
have
the
right
support
at
the
right
time
in
the
place
where
they
they
would
need
it
the
most
and
we
have
been
over
the
last
year
developing
in
response
to
the
pandemic
as
well.
A
number
of
new
service
offers
particularly
around
about
that
early
intervention
levels.
So
looking
at
how
we
work
with
our
cluster
providers
and
ensuring
that
there's
additional
capacity
within
those
within
those
services
to
support
children
and
young
people
at
that
lower
level.
I
Looking
at
how
we
can
bring
our
professionals
together,
we're
in
the
midst
of
delivering
a
link
programme
which
is
jointly
work,
a
piece
of
joint
work
with
the
anna
freud
centre
in
the
department
of
education
to
look
at
how
we
bring
mental
health
practitioners
and
school
staff
together
and
work
on
some
of
those
challenges
that
they
define
collectively.
They've
been
some
really
great
conversations
about.
Actually,
communication
is
key
here
and
how
we
bring
those
opportunities
for
people
to
work
better
together
to
understand
the
wide-ranging
services
that
we
have
across
leeds.
I
We've
also,
as
emily
said,
look
at
how
we
reduce
that
parity
in
terms
of
the
difference
in
investment
that
comes
in
for
children's
mental
health
and
we've
been
really
successful
in
securing
additional
funding
through
the
transforming
child,
young
people's
mental
health
provision,
green
paper
and
the
trailblazers
around
the
mental
health
support
teams.
And
I
know
that
you've
been
updated
on
those
before
in
terms
of
the
the
teams
that
we
have
in
place
within
our
further
education
settings
to
provide
that
earlier
level
of
mental
health
support
for
children
and
young
people.
I
The
most,
I
think
it's
councillor,
wenner
and
emily
have
both
said
as
well
about
really
that
that
joint
piece
of
work
with
partners
from
a
an
all-age
mental
health
strategy,
point
of
view
particularly
rounds
about
the
transitions
program
of
work
and
I'm
absolutely
delighted
that
it's
been
approved
as
a
as
a
priority,
from
both
future
mind
and
from
our
all
age.
Mental
health
strategy,
and
we've
got
some
massive
amount
of
practitioners
really
working
together
to
look
at.
I
I
Also
within
the
the
report
there's
some
key
areas
about
some
developments
that
we've
got
happening
so
the
delivery
of
our
digital
therapeutic
platform.
Silver
cloud,
which
is
currently
available
in
some
of
the
clusters
within
leads
we're
rolling
that
out
now
across
all
of
them,
so
that
there's
that
lower
level
digital
support
with
a
support
worker
for
young
people
where
that
meets
their
needs.
I
So,
looking
at
how
we
bring
that
physical
and
mental
health
together,
so
that's
how
I
think
that's
a
really
exciting
development
that
really
we're
looking
to
to
do
some
work
around
about
the
just
sort
of
the
last
points
we've
touched
on
trauma,
and
I
think
everyone
is
aware
of
that
really
key
piece
of
work.
I
The
last
two
areas-
parent
carer
and
family
support
and
health
inequalities
in
their
own
right-
are
priority
areas,
but
are
actually
the
golden
thread.
That
goes
through
all
our
priority
work
streams
and
we're
doing
a
lot
of
work
to
think
about
as
a
child
starts
to
require
some
level
of
support.
I
What
support
have
we
got
for
their
parents?
What
support
we've
got
for
the
siblings
and
that
family?
How
can
we
equip
them
to
support
the
young
person
and
health
inequalities
on
you'll
have
heard
before
when
jane
presented
this
previously
about
our
social,
emotional
and
mental
health
and
needs
assessment
about
children,
young
people
from
black
asian
and
ethnic
minority
communities?
A
Thank
you
very
much.
That's
really
helpful.
So
I've
got
celia
to
kick
off
please
and
I'm
seeing
other
hands
going
up.
C
Thank
you,
chair,
yeah,
interesting
report
and
in
several
places.
Understandably,
it
refers
to
schools
and
their
involvement
clusters
and
and
then
the
improving
mental
health
provision
in
schools,
and
I
am
aware,
as
someone
who
works
at
representing
school
staff,
of
various
schools
in
the
city
that
are
experiencing
troublesome,
behavior
manifesting
itself
in
several
ways
in
in
the
schools.
C
I
Thank
you
for
your
questions
in
terms
of
the
schools,
I
think
there
is
a
challenge
about
those
schools
who
are
not
in
cluster
and
who
are
not
part
of
this
system,
and
we
have
possibly
daily
conversations
about
how
do
we
improve
this?
How
do
we
make
a
difference?
How
do
we
ensure
that
those
schools
who
have
chosen
to
provide
that
offer
themselves
are
very
much
aware
of
what
else
is
out
there
and
that's
a
live
conversation?
I
We've
not
got
it
right
yet,
and
I
know
we
are
talking
to
our
primary
care
network
colleagues
as
well,
who
many
of
them
are
really
interested
at
looking
at
those
who
are
within
their
localities,
so
the
local
care
partnerships?
How
can
we
bring
all
schools
together?
Not
just
those
that
are
in
the
cluster
model,
and
I've
got
a
meeting
in
a
couple
of
weeks
to
start
to
talk
about
some
of
that
as
well,
because
there
is
that
acknowledgement
that
there
is
a
gap
and
for
schools
and
and
for
primary
care.
I
Colleagues,
it's
challenge
as
well,
because
we're
investing
in
this
system
of
working
so
acknowledgement
that
it
isn't
right,
but
we
are
doing
something
to
look
at
it
and
what
we're
also
doing.
I
As
I
mentioned,
the
link
program
which
we've
we've
put,
that
offer
to
all
schools
to
come
together
with
our
mental
health
practitioners
to
build
up
that
network,
because
there's
a
recognition
that
people
will
go
to
the
service
that
they
know
that,
perhaps
might
not
even
be
a
commissioned
service.
But
it's
the
one
they
know.
So
how
do
we
bring
that
better
together
and
look
at
our
mindmap
website
as
a
bit
of
a
a
profession?
I
Look
at
developing
that
site
with
professionals
to
get
a
more
professional
network
up
and
running,
so
we
can
get
information
out
there,
which
seems
to
be
the
key
as
I'm
starting
to
speak
to
more
and
more
professionals.
And
so
I
think,
there's
some
good
things
starting,
but
actually
absolutely
acknowledge.
That
comment
about
the
challenges
between
those
and
we're
also
trying
to
have
conversations
with
those
services
that
those
schools
that
are
not
within
cluster
our
commission.
And
how
do
we
bring
them
into
those
discussions?
I
In
terms
of
funding
for
cams,
I
was
expecting
that
question
today
today.
There's
a
lot
of
development
happening
within
camps.
Obviously
we
know
the
pandemic
has
had
an
impact
on
the
demand
and
acuity
of
children.
Young
people's
mental
health
presentations.
I
There's
been
additional
investment
made
across
a
number
of
services
this
year
in
terms
of
support
for
children
and
young
people
with
eating
disorders.
So
the
cam's
eating
disorders
team
has
been
expanded.
The
camps
transition
team
has
been
expanded.
There's
been
a
lot
of
investment
put
into
the
neurodevelopmental
assessments.
We
know
the
numbers
for
autism.
Assessments
are
sort
of
going
up
three
times,
they're,
significantly
increasing,
so
we're
looking
at
how
there's
an
additional
investment
to
support
that
in
the
here
and
now.
I
But
how
do
we
work
as
a
system
to
collectively
change
how
we
support
children
and
young
people
with
autism
and
adhd
there's
also
been
additional
investment
into
our
cams
crisis
line
in
terms
of
that
point
of
contact
for
children,
young
people,
families,
professionals,
when
they
feel
that
there's
a
mental
health
crisis
which
is
also
working
alongside
our
voluntary
sector
organizations,
so
team
connect
and
the
west
yorkshire
response
and
night
owls
to
support
to
have
that
additional
point
of
contact
so
that
there
has
been
additional
investments
and
we
will
continue
to
push
for
more
as
we
move
forward
with
some
of
these
developments.
A
Thank
you
for
that.
How
about
councillor
carter
next,
please.
E
Well,
thank
you.
This
is
an
exciting
piece
of
work
and
it's
very
welcome.
Thank
you
for
all
your
hard
work
with
that.
E
One
thing
that
we
we
know
this
evidence
that
early
intervention-
in
fact,
almost
immediate
intervention
after
a
trauma,
is
really
important
for
mental
health
and
are
you
able
to
build
in
that
ability
and
to
act
almost
immediately,
I
mean.
Sometimes
it
can
be
such
a
simple
intervention
as
getting
the
child
just
to
talk
about
what
has
happened,
and
that
can
be
enough
to
stem
further
mental
health
issues.
I'm
sure
you
know
thank
you.
I
I
think
that's
why
it's
so
important
that
trauma
is
a
priority
within
this
strategy
and
also
in
the
all-age
mental
health
strategy,
and
it's
also
something
that's
recognized
across
the
city.
We've
got
more
and
more
professionals
at
different
levels,
engaging
with
that
program
of
work,
so
we
can
look
at
people
being
aware
of
that
as
well,
rather
than
you
know.
I
Looking
at
the
behavior
know,
what's
behind
the
behavior
and-
and
I
think
that's
why
the
trauma
movement,
if
you
like,
is
so
important
so
that
people
can
have
that
early
level
conversation
but
understand
why
they
need
to
have
that
early
conversation
and
then
look
at
the
other
developments
in
terms
of
the
trauma
service
and
and
the
trauma
strategy
that
will
come
out
that
will
address
exactly
what
you've
raised
there
about.
Having
that
earlier
conversation,
I
don't
know
if
that
answers
your
questions.
D
If
I
could
just
add
one
really
positive
example
in
the
last
year
has
been
the
development
of
trauma,
navigator
roles
in
the
a
e
departments.
So
the
strategic
approach
that
we're
trying
to
take
as
a
health
service
now
is
very
different.
We've
previously
organized
ourselves
around
services,
so
someone's
managed
a
e
and
commissioned
for
any
someone,
who's
managed
a
particular
mental
health
service
and
commissioned
for
the
health
service
and
the
think,
child
and
think
family
approach,
which
counts.
The
rendering
partners
are
advocating
means
that
we're
now
trying
to
think
about
the
experience
of
the
child.
D
So
these
a
e
navigators
are
there
at
a
point
where
a
young
person
has
experienced
trauma,
usually
in
relation
to
violent
crime
and
are
able
to
train
other
ready
staff
and
signpost
that
young
person
into
appropriate
services
as
needed.
But,
as
you
say,
have
that
important
conversation
at
the
time,
which
is
most
likely
to
be
successful
as
an
intervention.
So
those
are
the
kind
of
things
that
we'd
like
to
build
on
and
develop
as
we
measure
the
efficacy
of
that
model.
A
Okay,
thank
you
for
that
council
of
renshaw.
Please.
N
Thank
you.
I'd
just
like
to
ask
a
couple
of
questions
that
I'd
already
got
written
down
before
see.
They'd
ask
them.
One
of
them
is
about
the
the
time
scale
of
cams
and
the
length
of
time
that
a
child
has
to
work
before
they
get
even
get
referred
to
cams.
N
So
it's
going
through
that
whole
process
and
I'd
just
like
to
know
what
that
time
scale
is
now,
because
I
think
the
mental
health
is
really
key
to
a
lot
of
children
and
young
people's
lifestyles
and
also
some
of
the
young
people
who
were
just
beginning
to
start
school.
So
the
early
years
have
had
no
experience
of
social
skills,
social
interaction,
the
parents
haven't
and
so
there's
a
whole
book
full
of
sorts
of
case
work.
N
That's
ongoing
within
educational
establishments,
and
I
just
wondered
if
you'd
any
plans
to
address
those
in
the
early
years,
so
that
it
feeds
through
school.
Better
and
the
youth
service
wasn't
really
mentioned,
or
I
didn't
hear
it
anyway.
But
I
understand
that
if
you're
a
qualified
youth
worker,
you
only
get
an
18
and
a
half
hour
job
offer.
N
So
I
wondered
if
there
was
any
plans
to
put
those
in
place
and
to
get
the
people
to
full
those
vacancies
that
were
appropriately
trained,
and
I
think
there
was
the
last
one.
Let
me
think,
and
then
the
clusters
in
areas
you
said
that
you're
going
to
china
and
engage
with
schools
that
are
not
in
clusters.
N
In
my
word,
in
the
malicious
and
asean
tingly
to
as
in
tingly,
is
no
longer
a
cluster
and
I
don't
think
the
marley
one
is
either
the
journal
clarify
that
one.
I
don't
think
the
cluster
exists
in
there
anymore,
so
in
the
outer
south,
we're
like
a
cluster-free
zone
on
part
of
it,
and
I
just
wondered
if
you'd
any
plans
that
could
address
the
issues
within
that
area.
I
Okay,
thank
you
lots
of
questions.
Let
me
take
a
note
hope
I
covered
them
all
in
terms
of
waiting
times
for
services,
their
hat
their
if
we
look
at
before
the
pandemic,
and
now
we
can't
compare
like
for
like
because
so
many
things
have
happened.
So
we
know
at
the
very
start
of
the
pandemic.
There
was
a
lot
of
services,
had
sort
of
stopped,
take
stock
and
suddenly
changed
their
offer,
so
there
was
backlogs
started
to
occur.
I
So
when
we
look
at
some
of
the
waiting
times,
there
might
suddenly
be
a
backlog
and
then
suddenly
bush
they're
through
they're
into
services,
because
we've
managed
to
support
that.
We've
invested
a
lot
in
those
services
that
we've
spoken
about
before
so
more
money
into
clusters,
more
money
into
cams,
more
money
into
some
of
those
lower
levels
where
we've
got
challenges
is
that
single
point
of
access
and
blockages
happening
at
that
point?
The
service
have
been
hugely
hampered
by
workforce
issues
and
funding
in
some
of
our
services
is
not
so
much
the
issue.
I
It's
the
workforce.
That's
the
issue
so
we're
having
to
do
some
quite
radical
thinking
about
how
can
we?
How
can
we
use
the
resources
that
we've
got
to
attract
more
members
of
staff
leeds
community
healthcare
who
manages
my
mate
single
point
of
access,
have
are
doing
some
work
with
some
of
the
providers
across
the
city
so
clusters,
some
of
our
third
sector
providers,
to
bring
more
capacity
into
the
single
point
of
access
so
that
it's
truly
multi-agency.
I
So
it's
not
just
cams
practitioners,
it's
truly
multi-agency.
So
we
can
get
the
referrals
to
the
right
place
at
the
right
time
without
us
having
to
go
through
a
long
process
and
going
backwards
and
forwards
for
information
working
with
practitioners
to
ensure
we've
got
the
right
information,
so
reviewing
referral
forms.
So
the
process
is
slick.
We've
got
online
self
referrals
now
for
children,
young
people
and
their
families
can
make
a
referral
into
the
single
point
of
access
to
speed
up
that
as
well
as
well
as
professionals
doing
that
as
well.
I
So
there's
a
lot
of
work
to
look
at
how
do
we
move
children
and
young
people
through
that
system
faster
and
bearing
in
mind
the
challenges
that
we've
had
through
the
pandemic,
with
all
the
workforce
issues
and
all
the
you
know,
as
you
say,
children,
young
people,
perhaps
not
being
at
school
home,
was
a
safe
environment
for
children
and
young
people
who
are
perhaps
struggling
at
school
and
then,
when
they
move
back
to
school.
There's
the
challenges
there.
I
So
I
haven't
got
the
waiting
times
as
it
is
because
I
don't
think
it
would
probably
tell
you
anything
at
this
point
now.
If
you
want
that,
I
can
speak
to
colleagues
in
leeds
community
health
care,
and
I
can
share
that
through
angela,
and
I
think
that
what
I
want
to
reassure
you
is
there
are
pressures
we
are
aware
of
that,
particularly
at
the
single
point
of
access
and
looking
at
how
we
really
truly
change
that
to
become
a
multi-agency
forum
of
work.
J
To
be
fair,
they
do.
I
know
that,
having
set
up
team
connect,
I
mean
we
did
have
to
adapt
it
quite
dramatically,
because
we
discovered
that
young
people
don't
actually
talk
on
the
phone
in
the
way
that
we
did
when
we
were
younger.
So
it's
delivered
using
text
messaging
and
instant
messaging
more
than
it's
delivered
on
the
phone,
but
actually
those
services
that
have
been
set
up
through
this
work
stream
have
been
hugely
in
demand
over
the
pandemic
that
they
are
accessed
by
teenagers
in
need.
I
Thank
you
and
I
think,
on
the
back
of
team
connect
as
well.
We
do
because
we
are
listening
to
what
children
and
young
people
are
telling
us
about
how
they
want
to
access
their
services.
So,
looking
at
that
tech
support
online
support,
how
they
can
do
that
easier.
We
mentioned
before
about
the
the
funding
that
we've
managed
to
secure
for
more
mental
health
support
teams
working
with
schools
across
leeds,
so
that
will
bring
that
more
support
for
schools.
I
At
that
earlier
level,
the
cluster
offer
working
with
the
clusters
providing
additional
funding,
but
for
those
that
are
not
in
a
cluster,
that's
something
it's
a
difficult
one
to
to
to
sort
of
influence.
We
work
very
closely
with
leed
city
council
and
the
early
help
offer
to
try
and
and
see
how
we
can
work
better.
We
obviously
commission
the
the
specialist
mental
health
input
to
the
clusters,
so
it's
it
there's.
As
I
was
saying
before
it
isn't
it's
not
perfect.
I
We've
got
work
to
do
about
how,
for
example,
your
your
area
of
schools
are
not
in
a
cluster
and
how
they
have
made
that
decision
themselves
to
provide
that
level
of
support
to
their
children
and
young
people
outside
of
a
cluster
model.
So
there
is
the
challenge
there
about
they've
made
that
decision.
They
will
still
provide
that
level
of
intervention.
They
must
provide
that
level
of
intervention,
but
they're
doing
it
out
with
a
system
and
that's
the
challenge.
A
Thank
you
for
that.
I've
got
cancer
illinois
next,
please.
L
Yes,
I
want
to
look
at
page
28,
section
11.11.2
and
page
24,
section
5.2,
which
are
about
health
inequalities,
and
I
don't
know
if
college
is
the
same
as
me
to
see
press
reports
on
outcomes
and
ethnicity
in
the
press
this
week
really
quite
shocking
differences
in
in
outcome,
which
really
took
me
back,
and
I
thought
it
can't
possibly
be
as
big
as
that,
but
apparently
they
are.
L
I
was
going
to
ask
about
this
in
the
mental
health
context
that
it
appeared
from
other
conditions
that
that
the
outcomes
in
in
ethnic
minority
groups
were
substantially
worse
than
white
british
population
to
the
point
where
we're
not
doing
our
job
right
and
we
need
to
be
achieved
better
than
this.
I
just
wonder
what
your
reactions
are
to
the
ethnic
component
of
success
rates.
D
I
think
you're
you're
absolutely
right
that
this
statistics
that
we're
seeing
highlighted
in
media
now
are
devastating.
D
However,
it's
something
that
the
health
service
has
been
aware
of
for
a
number
of
years
and
we've
got
the
opportunity
now
to
look
at
how
we
design
services
and
deliver
them
thinking
about
the
person
or
in
this
case
the
child
and
their
family
and
where
they
live
so,
instead
of,
as
I
talked
about
previously
thinking,
service
and
thinking.
Well,
we
provide
a
mental
health
service
and
75
percent
of
our
referrals
are
seen
in
time
and
those
kind
of
statistics.
So
that's,
okay.
D
Looking,
instead
of
the
population
of
leads
as
individuals
and
as
people
and
trying
to
measure
that
gap,
so
the
work
we
will
be
doing
in
partnership
for
the
children's
population
board,
which
the
future
in
mind
strategy
programme
board
will
be
adopted
underneath
and
will
enable
us
to
look
at
the
population
of
leads
in
terms
of
children
in
terms
of
where
they
live
in
terms
of
vulnerable
groups.
So
perhaps
a
child
who's
had
contact
with
the
care
system.
D
So
it's
always
been
a
flat
line
provision
across
the
city,
with
some
really
targeted
work
through
certain
strategies,
but
this
hopefully
will
fundamentally
change
the
way
we
commission
health
services
in
the
future
to
drive
forward
improvements
and
close
that
gap.
So
we
really
do
improve
the
health
of
people
in
the
city
who
are
the
poorest
the
fastest,
because
that's
what
needs
to
happen
but
absolutely
acknowledge
that
leads
and
does
feature
in
those
statistics.
In
the
same
way
as
the
rest
of
the
country.
There
is
a
significant
gap
and
it's
a
gap.
We
need
to
close.
H
H
I
can
vouch
for
that
as
a
father
of
a
teenage
son
who
gets
access
to
mind,
mate
and
the
marketplace
as
and
when
he
needs
it
knows
how,
to
my
only
slight
reservation
is,
of
course,
it's
all
city
center
delivered,
rather
than
leeds
being
a
huge
metropolitan
city,
and
there
are
major
towns
and
cities
that
don't
have
access
to
this
stuff,
including
opley.
H
You
know
it
would
be
much
easier
if
there
was
a
half
a
day,
innately
a
week
for
young
people
in
olly
and
paul
et
cetera
or
in
weatherby
if
it
was
half
a
day
in
weatherby
etc
if
they
were
delivered
closer
to
home,
because
we
know
that
we
want
care
closer
to
home
and
that
accounts
for
children
as
well,
because
so
good
stuff
going
on.
I
want
to
ask
about
where
the
six
teams
are.
I
notice
bramley
and
the
west
have
got
two.
I
assume.
H
H
And
finally
you
talked
about
staffing
and
having
a
problem
in
finding
healthcare
professionals
to
deliver
these
services
at
us
at
a
regional
level.
Do
you
have
discussions
with
organizations
like
health,
education,
england,
because
we
know
there's
a
three-year
lead
for
and
I'm
a
nurse
most
people
in
this
room
know
that
that
we
know
there's
a
three
or
four
year
lead
for
us
to
get
our
nurses
and
get
our
mental
health
nurses.
H
And
yet
my
wife,
as
a
lecturer
over
at
the
nurse
lecturer
over
at
the
university
of
leeds,
hasn't
gotten
well,
she
has
got
enough
work,
but
she
could
have
more
work
if
we
started
training
our
own
nurses
as
it
is
we're
going
over
seas
and
taking
them
from
countries,
we
really
shouldn't
be
taking
them
from
so
so
they're.
My
points
if
we're
having
those
discussions
around
because
you
can
deliver
services
if
you've
got
no
one
to
deliver
them.
They're
pointless.
I
Thank
you
very
much
in
terms
of
the
your
point
about
the
locality
offer
you're
absolutely
right.
I
think
the
idea
very
much
for
when
we
re-procured
the
marketplace
was
it
to
go
out
into
areas,
but
obviously
the
pandemic
has
made
some
of
that
a
little
bit
tricky.
However,
that's
very
much
your
focus
and
you've
seen
that
within
the
strategy
that
we
want
to
get
the
care
delivered
at
the
right
place
in
the
right
time.
I
So
we
need
to
think
about
how
we
use
our
youth
groups,
how
we
use
those
settings
to
get
other
services
out
into
the
community
working
with
children
and
young
people,
so
very
much
hear
what
you're
seeing
there
in
terms
of
additional
investment
over
the
last
year.
That's
come
down
from
nhs
england
in
terms
of
service
development
funding
in
response
to
the
increased
presentations
through
and
the
pandemic
we've.
Also,
the
the
money
for
the
mental
support
teams
again
is
through
us
bidding
to
nhs
england.
I
For
that
additional
investment
and
in
terms
of
discussions
regionally
about
the
workforce,
it
is
acknowledged
regionally,
it's
acknowledged
nationally,
and
there
is
currently
in
development
and
there's
a
lead
for
this
across
the
west,
yorkshire,
children
and
families,
program
of
work
for
away
structure,
children,
young
people's
mental
health
workforce
strategy,
because
every
area
is
suffering
the
same
challenges,
and
we
also
know
that
we're
all
pic
sort
of
stealing
from
our
own
as
well
moving
around
the
patch
and
how
do
we
we
grow
our
own
and
the
mental
health
support
team
model
is
one
in
which
we're
starting
to
grow
our
own
there's
a
number
of
emotional
mental
health
practitioners
that
sit
within
those
teams
who
attend
university
to
to
train
themselves
up
to
the
next
level.
I
H
Sorry
and
the
one
other
piece
I
wanted
it
says
in
paragraph
68,
face-to-face
delivery
has
been
placed
on
hold
as
naught
19
fins,
public
health,
integrated
nursing
service
colleagues
are
being
asked
to
support.
Do
you
have
any
idea
when
that's
going
to
stop
and
you're
going
to
get
public
health
because
there's
stuff
about
co-location
etc,
which
I
assume
is
being
held
up
because
you're
moving
staff
around,
not
you,
but
the
service
is
moving
staff
around
because
of
the
pandemic.
I
assume.
I
Yeah
there
has
been
a
hold
and
there
has
been
movement.
I
believe
that
it's
it's
we're
getting
slowly
back
to
normal.
A
lot
of
that
was
in
response
to,
I
think
when
I
wrote
the
paper,
omicron
was
still
sort
of
weren't,
quite
sure
exactly
what
was
going
to
happen
and
we've
seen
that
the
impact's
not
been
as
huge
so
services
are.
We
had
to
meet
in
a
couple
weeks
ago
with
that
service
and
services
are
starting
to
move
back
to
that
face-to-face
and
moving
towards
all
the
developments
that
we
wanted
to
see.
N
Thank
you
chair.
I'd
just
like
to
pass
a
comment
really
and
it's
following
on
from
what
counselor
said
about
training
nurses,
and
I
know
it
costs
the
student
to
train
to
be
a
nurse,
and
that
is
one
of
the
reasons
why
we
can't
get
the
young
people
to
train.
So
I
just
wondered
if
there
was
any
government
legislation
in
place
to
address
the
issue
of
training
nurses
free,
like
we
used
to
do
while
they're
doing
the
practical.
N
D
Not
aware
of
any
forthcoming
legislative
changes
that
would
make
that
impact.
However,
there
are
things
that
we
can
do
as
a
city
to
try
and
support
people,
so
we
do
have
an
academy
which
is
set
up
across
health
and
care
in
the
city
that
I'm
sure
would
have
presented
here
at
time
to
time,
and
we've
recently
been
working
in
partnership
with
them
to
develop
a
range
of
access
routes.
So
you
might
have
seen
online
there's
both
a
carrier
campaign
and
a
next
step
leads
campaign.
D
The
career
campaign
is
focused
on
attracting
people
who
have
experiences
of
caregiving
in
their
day-to-day
life,
so
we're
thinking
about
mums
returning
to
work
after
recently
having
children
into
a
career
profile
and
providing
them
a
range
of
free
support,
options
in
terms
of
training
and
mentoring,
to
help
them
develop
into
care
assistant
roles
with
an
idea
of
being
fast-tracked
through
into
supported
roles
and
gaining
perhaps
registrant
positions
in
the
future.
So
we're
doing
what
we
can
in
the
city
to
make
those
roles
attractive
for
people
and
also
to
advertise
them
in
local
areas.
D
N
D
That
is
the
same:
we've
done
it
as
a
unified
approach,
because
we
feel
as
jane
described.
Sometimes
in
the
city.
We
robbed
peter
to
paypal,
so
we
felt
it
was
really
important
to
develop
a
unified
program
and
we've
come
together
to
consolidate
all
our
vacancies
and
look
at
what
the
needs
are
in
the
hospital.
What
the
needs
are
in
community
services,
what
we
need
in
care
homes
and
then
help
people
fast
track
into
those
jobs
when
they're
looking
for
employment
and
we're
looking
for
people
with
caregiving
skills.
A
A
I'm
quite
sure
that
we
are
number
two.
Are
we
happy
to
note
the
breadth
and
connection
between
partners
and
practitioners
across
the
system
and
thank
them
for
their
continued
commitment?
I
think
we're
certainly
happy
to
do
that
and
item
three.
Are
we
happy
to
recognize
that,
there's
more
to
do
with
all
the
caveats
listed
below?
I
think
I
think
we
have
a
consensus.
A
A
Okay,
so
we
have,
I
think,
agreed
to
defer
item
eight
and
item
nine
to
a
future
meeting
unless
anyone's
desperate
to
stay
longer
and
call
everybody
back
no
yeah,
so
item
10
is
the
work
schedule
so
I'll
hand
over
to
angela.
F
Thank
you
chair.
So,
as
usual,
the
the
latest
work
schedule
is
appended
at
appendix
one
and
just
briefly
chair
just
to
point
out
that
the
the
next
formal
meeting
on
the
30th
of
march,
it
is
currently
scheduled
to
be
the
last
formal
planned
meeting,
but
obviously
based
on
the
earlier
conversations
and
the
commitment
that
this
fraud
will
bring
back
the
findings
arising
from
the
notification
of
serious
incidents
with
you.
F
Just
mindful
that
that's
expected
the
timeliness
of
that
is,
as
they
said
end
of
march,
there's
no
guarantee
it
would
be
in
time
for
our
30th
of
march
meeting.
So
I
guess
it
would
be
a
conversation
through
the
chair
about
whether
we
do
plan
a
further
meeting
separate
to
that.
The
evidence
sessions
linked
to
the
exclusion
elective
home
education,
not
rolling
the
the
the
plan
is
that
they're
held
remotely
as
as
working
groups.
So
that's
not
necessarily
a
formal
public
meeting,
so
we
do
have
april.
F
A
Thank
you
very
much
angela.
So
all
that
leaves
is
item
11,
which
is
the
date
and
time
of
the
next
meeting,
which
is
wednesday,
the
30th
of
march
at
10
o'clock,
with
the
usual
pre-meeting
at
9
45,
and
if
I
can
thank
you
all
for
sticking
with
us
this
morning,
it's
been
quite
a
heavy
and
lengthy
session,
very
grateful
to
to
helen
who
has
captured
a
phenomenal
amount
of
notes,
and
particularly
to
angela
for
all
the
work
she's
done
in
helping
to
pull
everything
together
for
for
this
morning.