MakerDAO Community, 9 Mar 2021

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From YouTube: Community Call Mar 09th, 2021: Incognito Protocol L2 and Wallet, Private Dai?

Description

Special Guests
We will be joined by Andrey Bugaevski from Incognito Protocol, an Ethereum Sidechain focused on privacy.

More on Incognito:
https://endofthechain.com/incognito-show-notes/
https://we.incognito.org/t/the-incognito-privacy-stack-how-am-i-private/8552
https://forum.makerdao.com/t/incognito-brings-anonymous-dai-transactions-with-close-to-zero-fee-intro/6116

If you're curious to learn more about MakerDAO explore some of the resources below:

Awesome-MakerDAO Resource Repository: https://awesome.makerdao.com/
Technical Documentation: https://docs.makerdao.com/
Community Portal: https://community-development.makerdao.com/
Governance Forum: https://forum.makerdao.com/
Website: https://makerdao.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/makerdao
Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/MakerDAO/
Chat: https://chat.makerdao.com/home

A

uh Hey everybody welcome to uh what is it march, 9th uh maker dial community call? My name is david and I'm joined here today by andre, and we have an awesome call for you today.

A

So uh if you're unfamiliar with the call we as of lately uh we've been using, this call to really invite guests on that are doing things uh related to dye, to maker dow to uh to defy and to basically give them a platform to share with the maker community what it is that they're doing why it's relevant and also to kind of create a space for feedback to give a chance for people on this call people in the comments in the video to to yeah, to ask their questions to give their feedback uh and, ultimately so that we can uh yeah, make things better all together and see some interesting stuff along the way.

A

And so today our guest is andre yeah. He uh are you the lead, dev of incognito protocol or, what's what's your role in the whole team.

B

um We call it like project lead uh project, okay, cool kind, kind of yeah, so deciding the direction and making decisions.

B

I would say like that, um yeah and- and uh you mentioned that the march of eight in here is march 10 in vietnam, so uh yeah, I'm saying hello from vietnam, like our head office in ho chi minh city. uh Since the beginning, it's.

A

B

Right a little bit uh yeah, but it's uh fun.

A

Yeah, naturally, naturally, so the the whole um atmosphere of this call is meant to be very interactive, so andre, I believe, prepared a presentation for us and we're going to look at like a pre-recorded video demo later, uh but feel free to. If you're here to ask questions, there's an ask question uh like button over there. uh I think I'm on the left side of everybody's screen, so that that should have.

B

A

B

In my screen is that.

A

Okay, yeah cool, so there should be like ask question button down there I'll, happily relay any questions. People in the chat ask uh but yeah, so I'm gonna give it over to to you andre, and I guess we could start off with uh you know what is incognito protocol.

B

um Let's, just uh like briefly uh clarify we go through introduction, let me to share like the presentation right straight forward. Yes,.

A

So so I I was interested in getting just uh like one or two sentences of what incognito protocol is and then I was curious about. Like the background of yourself, the team, how incognito protocol came to be uh what it is today, yeah.

B

Okay, then jump into.

A

The whole presentation.

B

uh So um in general, in fundamental incognito is uh like privacy focused blockchain network uh which, um based on um uh like the privacy set based on kryptonite cryptography, it includes ring signature, confidential, uh confidential transactions still addressed, and we work now on implementing um confidential assets as well like. This is additional.

B

On top of that, uh and in terms of um uh like consensus, we like based on proof of stake, we um we run uh incognito network on eight charts right now uh with uh like possibility to scale to, like I don't know whatever it required like 56 120, like whatever, like eight charts on this point, is like more than enough to to handle like the current demand.

B

um So there is a like blockchain network, uh which is one part. uh There is privacy stack, which is the second part, and there is like we call it. Interoperability stack uh is the work we do for uh like cross chain communication, like uh I will share later um on presentation uh how um how we maintain bridge to ethereum network. uh It's non-custodial.

B

It's trustless, uh it's like like verifiable um yeah, and this is simply like three aspects of incognito network and then on top of incognito network. uh We have, um we are building actually line of uh products.

B

um Technically we incognito doesn't have uh like virtual machines, so we not support a smart contract like you can imagine on ethereum, uh but um uh we are able to hard quad like smart contracts into the chain. For example, uh we already hard coded um imm uh decentralized exchange like aka uniswap, uh but with uh like anonymous uh like anonymous protection, something like that and then in the plans.

B

uh We simply like thinking about to implement all kind of defy applications uh which is successful in public um space and just to experiment in private privacy mode.

A

B

I'm excited to ask you some more.

A

Questions about that later, like when we get into it.

B

Yeah, I will have presentation. I will actually go through every aspect about privacy, uh then about scalability, then about interoperability. I will explain how bridge works. I will explain how privacy for smart contract works as well.

A

Sweet sweet so tell me a little bit uh before we get into that a little bit about yourself, your background and and the whole story behind incognito.

B

um Okay, so um I'm originally from ukraine from odessa. I study like physics and computer science in ukraine uh like was working in like software industry for a while until uh in 2016 I got hunted on like cyber identity project and then in this project we were actually exploring like blockchain technology, uh and it was actually quite interesting because that project was funded by uh like a guy with a name, ronald noble. uh He is like ex-general secretary of interpol and actually everything which I learned about blockchain about privacy and about technology.

B

It came from from that project um and then, unfortunately, the project was closed in the uh like september 2017, uh and um there was, if you guys remember, there was like very like hot uh discussion around like blockchain and crypto in that moment, and um once that project was closed, I started researching about uh privacy for like blockchain technology um and then in parallel. I was actually like working in um some like marketing agency.

B

In that time uh and researching, uh I think, in november 2017 I made my first fork of monero and try to like learn deeper in that direction and all the time I was actually living in saigon in vietnam here and what else yeah. um That's.

A

Nice trying to.

B

Remember like trying to remember through the dates yeah and there was like 2018, it was still uh hot on crypto and I was actually get kind of excited about, uh like privacy, tech and very interesting that, um like incognito originally like was funded by uh like dewey. uh He is like vietnamese, a guy who uh like who grew up in us and then came back in in vietnam to just build like software startups and his actually story also like quite interesting. He he became like phd student when he was 17..

B

uh He got like some grants from nasa when he was like studying in the us. He was. um He was, I don't remember the year, but he was um computer science olympic. He was in uh uh in the final uh like championship of this, so he's like really really like good in computer and science, and uh he started um like researching in blockchain and privacy around beginning 2018, and his company was also like in vietnam here and in 2019.

B

uh Our common friend actually introduced us and he told us actually that we're doing the same things in parallel and don't know each other in that moment. So and then, since 2019 I joined like full-time incognito and just focusing on like this project.

A

Nice, how big is the team.

B

um I think today, in slack it was like 50 people. I think something like that. You know.

A

B

Like working slack, yeah.

B

A

Yeah, that was my bad. I accidentally.

B

A

Hit the mute, video button.

B

And actually, probably also um like worse to mention that um um so like technically, like dewey, he is like founder of incognito, and I just jump in um like when, when development already started uh and like incognito in general is like fully self-funded projects, so we didn't do any kind of fundraising.

B

We didn't do either private either like public sales. uh We just started like building technology and uh in october 2019 we already like launched mynet uh and uh since uh october 2019 we start uh start like working on some kind of products. So uh we thought that the blockchain network- it's not the product itself, so we start uh like building um like decentralized exchange. We start building wallets and so on. So on.

A

Got it, and, and hopefully that answers a cuba's question from the chat because he was asking if incognito is going to be deployed on public ethereum, uh which uh it sounds like it was deployed in october of 2019? Is that right.

B

um You mean the breach so also important.

A

B

um Yeah yeah, I think the breach was like deployed uh like same maybe november.

B

In october, we launched like mynet in november, we uh we deployed the first bridge and actually um on ethersearch um like there is uh our article about uh it calls incognito mod for ethereum, and I think it also like one of the most viewed uh privacy article on intersearch. uh So if you like from ethereum community like you, definitely should take a look at that.

A

Nice all right cool, uh let's get into your presentation.

B

Yeah, let's do it uh yeah. Let me share my screen.

B

B

um Can you see my screen yeah?

B

Yes, um okay, so I I will uh try to like make it um fast. uh Usually, um if, if I will be talking about something boring, you just kick me like further, you got it I'll interrupt. You.

A

If you're, if you linger too far on something.

B

Yeah yeah yeah, because I mean I can talk about um different things which may be not related, so feel free, guys.

A

B

This presentation, I will try also to make it like more related to die and like why privacy is important, and I make um made very quick agenda uh with uh like four parts, why privacy is important uh products which we already have um and which you can use uh like for your uh diet and technology, which is uh behind our products uh yeah.

B

So, starting um with like why privacy, and why now uh I think it's not secret to anyone about the grow rate of uh like crypto industry uh like recent years and uh as far as we go, it's like it's more, it's becoming mainstream um and uh you guys know about defigro. You guys know about like paypal and uh uh allowing like um buying selling crypto right.

B

um All this you know, so I just make a call made a cool slide to uh remind one more time uh from uh our understanding and from uh like the privacy uh purpose.

B

uh We feel that, um like higher adoption, mere means uh like higher surveillance uh since, like most of the blockchain networks on the market, right now is uh like public um public ledgers and uh all information is traceable. uh It's very very, um I would say it's a hot plate for uh different kind of surveillance, for different kind of uh like hackers and attacks, and I think people who understand privacy.

B

They already know that people who um doesn't understand why it's important um they, I believe they will understand like within within a year or like something like that.

B

um Also uh interesting moment, we were doing a kind of survey from incognito users and one of our users made a phrase which I started. Using always he said, cash has always been anonymous and it's very strong and powerful uh like phrase especially uh when you bring it to the uh like the blockchain and especially in diet. So technically die is digital cache.

B

You guys create uh like debt, centralized uh stable cryptocurrency, uh which can be transferred, like whatever around the world, without any kind of permission, and we can talk about this later, but it also one of the reasons why we uh decided to make uh diet like measure stable coin in uh incognito network, uh simply because it's like decentralized, uh because it's a permissionless and because nobody can stop any one of uh our users like to do this, and there is a very interesting trends going on.

B

Especially after um after covid kuvid, here uh there's some articles which saying that um uh kovid actually speed up uh like development or transition to the cashless society and uh cashless society. It again it means like full-scale surveillance. So um all your like daily activity and um like all information about you uh like will be public like and probably like, visible and then like very simple, um like simply explaining uh for people also who, like don't know it yet uh right.

B

Every transaction uh you make for your die on ethereum network or any other public networks is like transparent, uh since the uh first die is minted to the last dice minted. um All kind of like transaction mint and burning function that links to each other and the logic behind incognito is just to make all those transactions anonymous and from our perspective, uh we we we call it uh incognito mods. So simply when we like build bridge to ethereum, we call it incognito mod for ethereum.

B

uh We call it incognito mod for die and the reason behind, because we want to make it as easier as you use, incognito mode on your web browser, and it should be like as easier to understand as easy to use. Simply uh if you're, okay with public transaction, you transfer publicly if you're, not okay with this, you just turn on incognito mod and, like all your data data is disappeared.

B

With this slide also, I think important to highlight uh that, uh let's say if you use incognito mod uh simply um uh your wallet balance. uh Your transaction history uh is hidden uh like receiver, and sender. Address is also hidden. uh Transaction amount is also hidden. So simply all aspects of the transaction is like is like completely encrypted, uh with um kind of like one way encryption. So there's no way to decrypt this data, and nobody is able to uh like show it further uh important.

B

Also to highlight here that um we implemented uh read only keys uh for every uh incognito wallet and those read only keys allows you actually to disclose your wallet balance for like people who you want to.

B

In this case, it's going to be like useful for the purpose of um like when regulations come and, for example, you need to let's say that before new year there was a lot of news that uh us going to bring regulation, that every self-custodian wallet user, who has self-custodian wallet, should pass some kind of qic or verify this wallet. And imagine if you like, verify ethereum wallet or if you verify incognito wallet and then if some kind of um data is leaked or some database is hacked. uh All these verified.

B

Ethereum wallets um will make like very, very huge, uh like problem for the owners and if the same situation happened with incognito wallets uh you simply um like move funds to another wallet or turn off the read. Only key and um like all your like information reminds anonymous here.

A

So the read-only key you it's, you can turn it on or off, there's no like burning and regenerating it right. You need a totally new address if you want a new new key.

B

Yeah yeah yeah, so you you simply, you will just need to make a transfer uh within your incognito wallet and uh no not incognito within incognito network, so also important to highlight highlight that um it's not mandatory to have uh like only incognito wallet, because we like also permission less like blockchain network um and simply like it, can be accessible from like any any other devices uh which can make a call to the to the blockchain, got it, but uh also like david.

B

If you imagine the situation right, let's say if you pass qic for the public ethereum address, uh then uh this qic or this information got hacked or like go public somehow um and then transferring your like eater or diet to another address will not help you like at all.

A

While yeah, unfortunately not.

B

Yeah, while, while with incognito yeah like it, solves all problems, and um you get back your anonymity uh and then uh like also couple like reports, uh why we? um Why are we moving in this direction? So, in terms of like uh from um like the market uh uh like from the direction we go, uh we also when we were doing the research. The numbers numbers was a way more like smaller like couple years ago, but um the proportion is still reminds the same uh so like.

B

If you look at the cryptocurrency market cap, you will see that uh that privacy coins uh like taking like less than uh 10 percent of like the the whole market cap, is just like couple percent and um and then you know when we were doing like this research about okay. How are we going to position incognito in this market, because many users might think that incognito is like a new privacy coin uh or like something like that? And then we simply defined that nobody need new privacy coin.

B

Nobody need new, monero or new zcash simply because they good enough to like execute the job why they were created and then like incognito points of view, is that we want to like target another part of the market which is uh beside the privacy coins. So incognito is actually I'm to deliver privacy to ethereum network incognito, aims to deliver privacy to bitcoin network uh and like to other public networks like in in the pipeline.

B

So that's the reason we like we, we move in there uh and then so.

A

As so really quick question so as a a side chain on ethereum, uh you guys are trying to still do like um what what's the term looking for uh chain agnosticism right, like you, guys, want to be able to port any token to this uh side chain right.

B

Yeah yeah, so um ethereum um like integration, it was ethereum, it's like was our like the first priority uh and uh like simply it was like the first like trustless non-custodial breach, and then after ethereum, we started to work on um uh like finding a way to make uh trustless bridge for bitcoin.

B

um In this case, it's um a bit not a bit. It's a way more complicated than to build for ethereum, um like because of um simplicity of uh bitcoin blockchain uh and uh um during the 2020 we actually, we tried three different bridges to uh bitcoin network. um So there was like, uh like simple trusted bridge, uh there was more advanced bridge um uh which require uh like characterization uh like, for example.

B

If you want to uh anonymize one bitcoin, um there should be custodian custodian, like person or organization which um lock all own funds uh to guarantee like return of uh your money, uh and the second implementation was on incognito network and required some kind of like incognito coins. uh The third implementation of the um decentralized custodians was uh on ethereum network. uh So simply we build a kind of um like smart contract which which we call decentralized custodians.

B

So anyone can look uh like ether or any kind of erc erc20 coins and be custodian for incognito network uh to transfer like bitcoins there um yeah. So then, uh like stepping back um to the products which, uh like we already have uh on this moment, uh so the first like the simple one, is uh uh incognito wallet uh which I pitched on uh uh like make your dowel forum like community uh to and this for from this product.

B

We we we really want to get as many feedbacks from you guys as possible, uh because um I mean our goal is like to make some kind of universal uh uh privacy wallet when you will be able to do everything which you can do in public wallets and you will be able to do like in anonymous way like, for example, like halt and transfer, for example, swap, for example, um like run virtual node, for example.

B

I don't know, invest like do farming or like any kind of providing liquidity and and currently uh on incognito. We already implemented uh uh dex, as you mentioned, like uni-swap type of decks, so you're able to provide like liquidity with dye, you're able to provide liquidity with ath with btc uh and like with some like other coins. As well um yeah, and also quite interesting to mention that um on incognito wallet, we uh predefine a kind of um like minting smart contract uh when uh everyone um able to create own privacy coin.

B

So it's kind of um it's kind of template for minting on own privacy coin. um It's not popular yet. But it's quite interesting uh feature on this moment.

A

B

Yeah and then um this is just uh like metric, we reached so far. uh So, as I mentioned, um you can also see on this metric. uh This is the shielding volume it's uh like the value of cryptocurrency, which was anonymized, which came actually from public network to incognito network, and you can see here that actually majority also come from ethereum network, uh like ether and uh like the list of stable coins.

B

uh I think important also to mention here that um die uh like took seven percent, uh but the most important that is actually um this metric is like the the fastest growing uh like we started um acquiring and kind of farming for die in the end of last year. So simply we reach like seven percent within uh like three months of this year so and we like expecting to keep this uh like trend and, uh as I mentioned in uh like maker forum.

B

uh Actually, our goal is to make that, uh like measure stable coin on the network, uh simply because we want to guarantee uh like to the users like whatever they uh go, incognito, they can come back to ethereum network while uh like, for example, usdt or usdc.

B

uh They still have like small risk that, um like, for example, they can be frozen on uh incognito, smart contract by the by the creators of these coins, so that centralization is uh like the most favorite part of uh of dai and uh why we like it and use it, um have.

A

You spoken to have you actually spoken to any of the uh the people who are using ink incognito, like I'm curious, what the main thing that they're doing with the dye there is, is it for casual transactions? Are there? Are they lping? um Is it like just.

B

A

What's happening in the in the main ethereum chain, yeah.

B

um I I can say that, uh like most of use, cases uh happening right now is actually uh trading, uh uh bitcoin, monero ethereum to die to die and okay cool the next usd yeah usdc is kind of like dying, so we we're trying to get rid of like usdc and usdt is just like in general, like most of the user have them, uh but uh the metrics which is increasing, is actually uh trading like those three coins like um like ethereum bitcoin and monero, uh two kind of stable coins yeah and uh the sec.

B

The second one is, of course, farming so uh simply to grow um liquidity pool for uh dye. We implement kind of farming. I have one more slide there to show, and briefly the second product which we are trying to present to uh like make your dial community is.

B

uh This is what what I mentioned is uh anonymous, swap uh simply when you like able to trade uh any coin to any and reminds uh like anonymous, and um your trade is kind of unlinkable to your, like incognito wallet, address and uh yeah, and here is the uh our metric, which we're kind of proud about, um as I mentioned um like to you before, before the call before we start recording. uh So incognito is kind of uh like no no name project, so we try and do not make um like.

B

I mean we're not trying to do not make noise.

B

We actually don't don't have time like making this noise, but what we try to focus on on making some kind of um like trying to solve some kind of real problems right, if, uh if users like have um like demand, uh for example, on swap ethereum to die- and they don't want to link um their wallet to the trade, they want to stay anonymous, we we want to like be the project which solve this problem and, um as you can see, also in the uh the right um right to middle graph.

B

uh This is uh trading volume on incognito pdx and you can see that. um So simply we didn't run any kind of uh uh like trading competition. uh We didn't run any kind of like campaign. We didn't give away any kind of airdrops for people to trade uh and which we actually proud about, and it's like purely organic kind of trade on the pdx and uh um the biggest spike one of the biggest spike is actually hap started happening on um in the end of 2020, beginning 2021.

B

I think it's also when the bull market started, yeah, yeah kind of kind of um and uh but but one of the spikes actually happened when, uh like bittrex start like listing some kind of coins- and I assume people start like looking for uh anonymous solution um and um in the bottom. I also like highlighted because uh it's kind of um I think uh david you, uh you followed the my first post on uh maker community.

A

B

Did it uh like back in november, and uh to be honest in that case, I say that we want to attract at least like five million dollars in liquidity, uh and in that moment we had the maybe three hundred thousand or something like that uh and uh like right now, I'm happy to say that we have like more than five meals achieved, yeah, yeah, yeah and then, and then I got um a little bit more uh uh after that.

B

I got uh um more ambitious uh and now we're having some like a way more ambitious goal and try to attract like actually uh like bigger diet, supply uh to be stored on incognito layer. So the the bigger the bigger goal like for um next milestone is to try to uh like attract. um I don't know like up to five percent of dice supply on, to keep it on incognito water or something like that. Yeah, um it's a good goal, yeah, I hope so. But again, this is mostly a question of.

B

um There is actually a couple parameters uh to make it uh achievable. So, firstly, we just need to um make uh trustless setup right, so people no need to trust anyone and they can just use the technology which we already did. The second one which also came from the community is like security audits. So users like want to be sure that uh everything is safe.

B

uh So in february we finish uh like we finished the first audit with uh for the ethereum bridge, and uh there is some like minor fixing, so we going to do and then we're going to publish on march this, uh like contract and um yeah.

A

So, what's the actual process of upgrading like the bridge or the network, uh does it require all of the different validators to kind of upgrade together or is there still like a central point of control for upgrades.

B

uh There is still a central point of control for upgrades, um so we also uh so we we are on the way to deliver uh two important uh like models on incognito network.

B

uh The first one is um privacy v2, uh this model which brings confidential assets on the network uh like, for example, right now, if you, um uh if you transfer like die or bitcoin through the network, uh so the um like the amount of the transfer transaction uh and uh like send the receiver data, as is hidden, uh but uh the type of the coin is still public. So technically it's possible to recognize that data was transferred to through the network and confidential assets model. It actually bring solve this problem, so it brings anonymity.

B

With this model, there will not be possible to recognize what kind of assets was sent through the network and this this model comes in uh april and then, uh in um uh june july, we plan to release uh dynamic committee size, uh so this kind of like mechanism for uh committee, to uh kick off uh not healthy nodes to make like the network more stable and until um until this dynamic committee um until dynamic committee size is uh released. uh We we have um like centralized um uh place of deploying updates.

B

So in this case, uh we still kind of like three four months in this process. This kind.

A

Of information, yeah yeah.

B

Yeah, it's kind of public, so we try to uh keep it transparent and I mean you know there is nothing um to be shy about uh simply again right. We are like self-funded.

B

We uh we try to make uh uh like decision uh which uh better for the network in the long term, and let's say if we need to keep this like update for uh like making faster deployment, we will keep it until it's required, but in the long term, uh simply because we build up like privacy network, we clearly understand that uh it will be successful only if it will be decentralized. So there is no way then privacy network, um like can be.

A

B

Yeah, so it's- and it also brings you know if you, um if you keep any kind of, um if you will keep any kind of trusted uh uh like system, it will be very clear vector of attack for everybody uh who, like don't like your network or like whatever you want to do, yeah it becomes more.

A

And more dangerous, the more and more uh the more adoption you get yeah.

B

Yeah yeah exactly so in this case, we're also trying to like communicate quite clear to uh like our community and users and yeah.

A

Yeah, uh I already know the answer to this, but I wanted to ask just for the recording and for the uh people like, where is the best place, to get the information on the day-to-day, and just all of these, these questions.

B

The best place is incognito forum. It's we.incognito.org, we dot incognito.org. There is uh all documentation about um about our roadmap, like development plan about technology, about different aspects of the network. um So um you also can see here that, uh like, for example, we have uh like different coins in network.

B

We have like ethereum, uh like bitcoin monero, for example, like ethereum bridge, is uh like completely trustless right now, while uh bitcoin is still required, like trust from from the core team uh for for bitcoin, we also have some like roadmap in terms of how we're going to switch those bridges from trusted to trustless setup and yeah. Again, everything is available on incognito forum. um We also think to make it like, maybe on the official website website, as well, to make it more transparent.

B

It's actually quite interesting. um In february we got a lot of. um We got a lot of like feedback from the community uh in terms of um like communicating this kind of transparency and, in march, we're going to uh to bring a lot of um a lot more information like that we had before so it's kind of uh also a good time. uh If, if you didn't learn it didn't know about incognito, I think march is going to be like really good time to like learn everything.

A

Yeah, I mean not for nothing to to your to your team's credit uh compared to a few of the projects that wanted to come on. The community call in the past, uh like your team's forum, uh has provided me with, like literally answers to all the questions that I had uh even now and you're saying that there's gonna be even more that you guys are putting out. So that's that's really really nice to hear.

B

I think the biggest um the biggest complaint from the community we got is that uh they want to they. They want to know like clear timeline uh in terms of like debt, centralization.

A

That's so hard.

B

A

B

Very challenging, uh I think, people who believe in privacy they also, I mean it's also clearly understandable- that you cannot release decentralized network in day one uh and uh you need to have some kind of process. But what.

A

Maker down knows all about that, I mean we just uh we're still going through the process. You know.

B

Yeah so and then people understand, and then um I don't know how guys your community like, uh what do you guys think about cardano, but uh they are in this process like for more than four years and um like our goal is to reach it's like a way way faster than than them. So.

A

Yeah yeah yeah, I I think uh reaching it is important, not just saying that you're gonna reach it. You know.

B

uh In this case, um I have like very clear motivation. uh I don't. I don't have another choice uh unless making cognito decentralize, because I'm uh like kind of face of the project and if somebody will be looking for uh incognito creators, they will probably find me- and in this moment uh everything should be decentralized. So I you know, I'm not um kind of influenced like anything. What.

A

Do they call that they call this the vitalik complex.

A

Yeah, I mean you know if, uh if, if you're the one who's like most vocal and public about it, yeah that's definitely putting yourself in that position, but I think, based on what I see on the forums, there's there's a ton of like people helping and and uh yeah. It seems like. The team is around too like aaron and, like others, uh so it looks good. It looks like there's a really nice community that you guys have already uh built out.

B

Yeah, actually, uh we have like quite strong uh community of people can.

A

You give me some metrics if you have like off top off top of your head.

B

um I mean like, for example, uh on incognito forum. I just checked um like this morning. We got um uh 100 000 or 130 000 visits uh on the forum in the last month. um So I don't. I don't say that it's 100 000 people, but it like around 10 000 people who visiting is like more than once um in terms of um incognito up like we have.

B

um um I think we have around like 15 000, 17, 000 downloads and in terms of um I don't remember exactly the nodes, but in terms of like active users who open up uh it's like around seven eight thousand per month. So this is like what we have right now, that's impressive in terms of uh like liquidity, for example.

B

We also I mean we acquired like 40 million dollars, like locked in liquidity, pools on incognito decks, 46 like right now uh for us, it's kind of big, also because it is again right because we we have some kind of like trusted party, and it's it's really big trust uh like that people like put it there um yeah. So what other metrics.

A

ah Those those are those are good stuff for sure yeah.

B

So so, and our forum is like growing so in terms of forum, we try and also to make it. um You know not only just like like about incognito, but we try to attract there like people who cares about privacy and who um can you now kick start some kind of topics beside incognito, but about some like the personal privacy things.

A

Yeah that makes sense.

B

And uh guys couple slides about the technology uh behind incognito I mentioned at the beginning, but I just want to highlight the privacy stack scalability and interoperability. What what do we have right now so in terms of privacy uh like, as I mentioned, we have uh like ring signature like still address confidential transactions and uh confidential assets is uh confidential assets and one-time address is coming uh within next release like within, uh like two months uh as well.

B

uh So in this case, um if you're not uh like aware about this, uh like words, then you can probably imagine uh monero, uh and I think that some somebody mentioned before that incognito delivers kind of uh monero level of privacy, uh like simply because we use exactly the same like cryptography and in simple words: um incognito delivers like monero uh level of privacy for die. So uh I don't know, is it kind of clear enough yeah.

A

Yeah, absolutely absolutely I mean me personally, I'm not like extremely technical, like I've read a few articles on like zk roll ups and at one point I'm sure in 2017 I read a bit about ring signatures, uh but but for me this all looks great like if you could say that you offer the same level of security as monero on an ethereum sidechain for die. Like that's in my in my ears. That sounds miraculous uh and it looks like you guys. Have the privacy stack to back it up so.

B

Thank you yeah. Thank you very much, but still uh there will be big achievement uh uh in april when we deployed the final. The final release, um I think, with with that release uh incognito will be even will have even higher level of uh privacy uh simply because monero doesn't support uh uh any assets uh beside monero right, incognito support other assets, which kind of like next generation uh and then like. We are proof of stake, and then we have some kind of like the apps on that and who.

A

Is incognito's like closest competitor,.

B

um So uh there it's actually kind of interesting uh question because uh uh it's kind of I don't know for me: it's more philosophy, philosophical fellow okay, sorry.

A

You said already philosophical yeah, philosophical.

B

So guys yeah, I'm like from ukraine.

B

This is this is the level of my english, uh the level of english not affect like level of uh like knowledge, in physics or in blockchain yeah, just well,.

A

You said it right, though you said it right so philosophically.

B

Yeah yeah because because um like incognito, it's more than like just a network um like simply because uh we are like product focused uh like mindset, people and let's say: if we're talking about incognito uh like wallet right the place where you can store and transfer uh like cryptocurrency anonymously.

B

um The closest competitors to us is uh like, for example, for bitcoin is wasabi wallet or uh for ethereum it. We can consider like tornado cache, like kind of uh anonymizer, but um on another site. If you compare um incognito uh with uh on chain mixers, uh incognito gives you like 10 times higher like level of privacy yeah.

B

If you not come back to ethereum like, for example, if you, if you uh shield, diet to incognito and then send it to me, and then I will go back to ethereum, it will be the same level. uh Privacy as like in mixer, probably not big difference. uh But if you, if you uh like, chill your diet and you stay uh like incognito or let's say you swap your die to xmr, there is no way that somebody will figure out like how where it goes.

A

B

And this is the first part right then, uh the second product which we have is incognito decks. uh If you compare like, um I mean I think, for incognito decks, the closest competitor is uh like uni swap and.

A

I mean even so, like it's not even really uniswap, because you know swap isn't private right.

B

Yeah yeah yeah, exactly so um in in the in the privacy decks. uh Okay, okay in privacy, dex is probably like disk exchange.

B

Risk is uh biscuits known as like the oldest uh uh privacy like or anonymous uh p2p uh decks, and in this case it also- um I don't remember- I mentioned this um um a couple months ago on unislab or on make your dao forum probably like it was unison, because they were asking also difference between um other daxes, and in that moment, when uh I mentioned that we actually reached um it was like back in november, and in that moment we reached uh risk exchange in terms of trading volume in terms of daily trading volume.

B

Wow, in that, in that moment it was, it wasn't big. It was like two three hundred thousand dollars uh like per day and, uh like three months later, uh we actually like uh like a way way far than uh bisque, because I mean simply, we are, I am dex and we like super easy scalable. uh Whatever you have liquidity and you have demand, you just scale the trading volume and uh right now, it's also quite fun. Incognito decks is not it's listed on coin market cap, but it's not uh trackable listing.

B

uh But uh if you check um uh the dex stat, we um like, I think we are higher than the binance decks then like list of um kind of, like average dexes um and um the coolest thing here like.

B

If you check the graph that, um like you know, we always like going like further uh for the the very interesting like statistic of the incognito taxes that um we launched this in december 2019 uh and uh uh like 14 months ago, and during this 14 months we reach new all-time high in trading volume every month, so yeah every single month. We just get more and more so it's good sign for us. I hope we can keep it like further.

A

Yeah, it's certainly a nice sign, so I I have a couple more questions. I know that there's uh we have like eight more minutes till the top of the hour. I want to make sure that I cover two things. The first one is the first one is. I know you mentioned to me before the call that um the wallet is mobile first rather than like web first uh and I'm curious like what uh access points there are for incognito.

A

If you are like a desktop first like web first user and not really a mobile crypto user.

B

um So we we we are uh going to launch in march. Web extension is kind of like privacy, privacy version of metamask and it will be integrated with metamask and you will be able actually to shield your crypto from metamask directly to incognito through our extension. um So yeah. That's that's that that's the closest uh step! That's.

A

A great answer: yeah.

B

To reach and um and then later, maybe in april, and may we're going to have a kind of um web interface for uh all kind of bridges. We have like something similar like rent protocol and you will be able to shield either ethereum like either bitcoin from one user interface in the web. Got it got.

A

It uh and then the second thing I wanted to make sure that I that I covered is. uh I am curious about like how many validators there are for the network and then also if there's any like plan uh like I know, decentralization in general is definitely a huge goal, uh but I'm curious about like the overall security of the network and growing the number of validators and what else, whatever.

B

A

Needs to happen there.

B

Okay, yeah. Okay! That's that's also interesting question. um So right now in the network we have um 2800 validators yeah, it's quite a lot I can. I can show you maybe like very clear, quick.

A

B

A

Upgrade ability being centralized like that sounds like a very, very healthy number of validators.

A

B

uh Yeah, but in in this case, yeah so 2833 on this moment, so uh it's also quite uh like trackable. We can.

A

What's the reward for being a validator.

B

um Actually, it still rewards quite high uh right now. It's maybe like around like 40 percent apy.

B

Let's say if you, if you set up incognito note and you will run it's still quite profitable, um and um the interesting moment is that, as I mentioned, we plan to release um uh network to the community this summer, uh which means um like the validator rewards will increase in that moment when we like release the network, uh and it will be actually um like organic um organic incentive for new validators to join because the the reward will increase, and I think that the market will just take uh that demand.

B

A

Nice, thanks for sharing yeah, sorry sorry to derail your uh presentation a little bit. Yeah.

B

Yeah yeah, I mean that's. That was our agreement in the beginning, so you stop me like any moment: okay, cool yeah so and then like last minute, I'm just finishing them. Oh actually, okay in terms of scalability, we are like proof of stake and we use like charging for uh like scaling in the future, so we we plan uh to be on the market for like long run and be able to handle uh whatever transaction we needed.

B

This is like one of the reasons why we have uh that many devices, uh so we we invented like our own kind of gadget um when you can plug and play and connect to the incognito network uh and um from this 2800. Maybe uh 1000 devices is like this one small on the right top corner. We call it incognito, not it just for people like my mom or like my grandmother, uh who doesn't need to know like how it works, but you just plug in and it starts like powering network and.

A

B

Answered your question and um interoperability, so um this article uh again, there is like very like detailed explanation about how it works on uh it. Research um for people who like want to know you just go there and write incognito mod, and you will find like a very detailed explanation. um Logic is very simple: there is like smart contract on ethereum smart contract on incognito, and these two smart contracts interact to each other.

B

And let's say if david wants to anonymize five heater, uh he lock five public heater on smart contract, then incognito network, getting kind of deposit proof and mint five private uh version of ethereum, and then whatever happened in kunito network anonymous uh and when you send it back to the public heater, uh it works the same. Firstly, incognito.

A

How long does it take uh is like I know some, uh some of these solutions have like a 10-day waiting period and stuff like that. So uh what how what's the speed at which you could deposit and withdraw from incognito.

B

um In average, for um let's say because we run this breach like for around one year um in average, like the deposit takes like couple hours yeah, so once ethereum transaction is confirmed, uh then mint in transaction like starting. um It also depends on the lot of ethereum network.

A

Of course, yeah.

B

Yeah so in this case.

A

um What about for withdrawals.

B

uh For withdrawals it's kind of similar like a couple hours, I mean yeah. If, if, um if it's network is not loaded uh and if there's like not demand either from incognito or ethereum, it might happen like within 20 minutes. Let's say if, if you're the first one on this moment, who do unshield is quite fast. If there is kind of traffic, then you might wait and like very briefly, I just wanted to highlight.

B

Also this is our second research on um ethersearch uh how we implement privacy for uh ethereum, smart contract, um so the br the breach you can see uh in the slide before this is this is the breach and beside the bridge. We also implemented, um like kind of incognito, broker smart contract, uh which allows us to um communicate with any kind of ethereum the apps, and uh simply if you are like, for example, if you have die on incognito network and you want to trade, uh die to ethereum on uniswap.

B

So as a trader, you can stay on incognito and reminds anonymous, but um your die will go through like through the breach uh through the broker contract.

B

It will be executed on uniswap, and then your ether will come back um to you as to trader, uh and the only public information will be is that um incognito broker contract traded with uniswap and the trader itself, like as a person or as uh like incognito address like reminds unlinkable to this transaction and last year we actually did two this kind of integration we integrated to with kyber liquidity pool, and we integrated with like unisop liquidity pools uh as well, so and it's already accessible from incognito app.

B

If you're interesting, you can try. um The only thing I should um uh assure you is that uh the fee is going to be like really fast yeah.

A

B

Was I was gonna, make.

A

A comment, but I feel, like everybody already knows, that doing that kind of thing might be gas expenses.

B

Yeah, yeah and- uh and I mean in in terms of like product um in terms of technology, uh this technology is like really awesome. I'm like super proud of this in terms of product. I feel uh it's kind of like failure for us uh simply because, if you trade uh on chain on the tea room and you pay for uh uni swap for trading like 60 dollars, and if you want to do it from incognito, you need to pay additional fees through through the bridge yeah yeah.

B

So, but I would say like that, when ethereum solve this problem with the fee, technology will be like unbelievable.

A

Yeah also, I imagine that this this can probably probably be adapted to uh to even use apps on, like other layer. Twos potentially like that seems like the beginning of a very, very big rabbit, hole of potential products and uses.

B

Yeah, that's for sure so, and that which I also mentioned on the beginning. uh This kind of implementation allow us also to like mean to die, for example, uh in same way, right.

A

So somebody can use maker without even the leaving incognito. It's just going to be a little bit expensive with gas, so they should do it with big amounts rather yeah. Exactly I get it.

B

Yeah and that's um oh actually, I think they made some.

B

And I think also like important that we try to uh make some like the real, like world use cases. um So, um on the beginning of like last year and 2020, uh we got grant also like from finance uh to so binance. I actually asked us to build uh same thing for their chain, which we like built for ethereum, uh which means probably that the implementation is quite cool.

B

Then we also integrated anonymous payment with autonomous, I'm not sure. If you guys aware this is e-commerce uh company, like quite popular like in state in states, uh we were actually like the first tool, which uh first crypto payment tool which was implemented there, and we tried to bring um also uh like more fiat getaways to incognito, uh like, for example, uh let's say if you have uh dye on incognito and you want to cash it out right now.

B

You need to unshield, it means to go public and, um and then probably somebody will accept your diet and we actually work on making uh incognito die some kind of standard uh when the people will be able to like receive the anonymous version of that um yeah and to finalize this is like like to finalize and to link to my the first slide when uh like crypto is eating the world and uh we believe, if cryptocurrency wins, if it will be uh in our daily life, then uh privacy should win as well, because uh it's impossible to use cryptocurrency daily without having like privacy, layer yeah.

B

That's I'm done.

A

Nice yeah, thank you so much andre for coming and sharing. This was like super super super interesting and packed with just so much stuff. uh I know we went a little bit over time and I was hoping we'd have like uh a lot more free time for like q, a and things like that, but uh I think you covered so many answers to a lot of the things that even I before the presentation was thinking of asking so uh just kudos to you.

A

um So if um I guess uh yeah part any parting thoughts, parting words before we end the call.

B

uh I just want to like uh say sorry if I uh wasn't clear like or I feel like on the beginning, I was a bit confused or, like maybe like wasn't, uh wasn't good in the beginning, uh just guys it's a little bit late here. I try to do it better and if you, uh if you want to, of course like uh learn, you know where to go.

B

You go on our forum, but I think the most important uh for us as uh um like creators of this is, if you guys, try it and give us like the feedback like for example, why, if you like it, why you like it and if you don't like it, that's the most interesting feedbacks and what do we need to improve to like make it like usable for, like your particular needs? That's the only thing we need and yeah. Thank you for inviting me.

A

Yeah my pleasure, this is really really cool and I think that users should know that you guys exist and that you guys are developing and growing, and I'm excited to see what uh what the incognito protocol has to offer in like a year or two from now like it's going to be great, oh by the way.

B

The last thing um sure, because we uh we we aim to make the like the biggest stable coin on incognito network and on pdx. We uh like uh have a farming for dye as well, uh which gives like around 13 apy for uh it's kind of like this is the thing which I don't like to uh try to convince people, because there's some api, but uh the funniest, the funniest, and maybe the coolest thing of this. Is that, uh like you, earn interest and like your remains anonymous.

B

um That's also kind of pretty cool, interesting.

A

Pretty cool all right well right on uh yeah! Thank you again! So much uh and hopefully in the future. We can have you guys on again and and see what awesome growth we uh you guys experience.

B

Yeah. Thank you. Thank you very much. Yeah.

A

Thanks for coming on andre- and thank you, everybody for watching hope, this was valuable. Cool, have a good one.

A