►
From YouTube: Governance and Risk Meeting: Ep. 11
Description
In this Governance and Risk meeting with Steven Becker we discuss Correlation Risk, Economic Capital and Stability Fee, we also touch on the definition of 'tail risk', the science of expecting the worst, and the future of governance on the Ethereum blockchain.
Meeting Minutes: https://github.com/scottrepreneur/maker-minutes
Governance and Risk Framework - Part 1: https://medium.com/makerdao/makerdao-governance-risk-framework-38625f514101
Governance and Risk Framework - Part 2: https://medium.com/makerdao/makerdao-governance-risk-framework-fc8939f3d4e9
Foundation Proposal: https://medium.com/makerdao/foundatio...
Website: https://makerdao.com
Twitter: https://twitter.com/makerdao
Reddit: https://www.reddit.com/r/MakerDAO/
Chat: https://chat.makerdao.com/home
Email: info@makerdao.com
A
Well,
everybody
and
welcome
to
the
October
11th
edition
of
the
scientific
governance
and
risk
meeting
with
Steven
Becker
we've
been
having
a
lot
of
very
interesting
conversations
leading
up
to
this
meeting,
recommend
that
if
you
haven't
already-
and
you
have
the
time
to
spare,
check
out
the
YouTube
channel
for
maker
down
and
have
a
look
at
the
scientific
governance
playlist
and
get
caught
up,
it's
worth
it.
We
were
just
discussing
courses
that
people
can
take
in
financial
risk
management
and
pointed
out
that
this
is
actually
kind
of
an
introduction
to
that
very
course.
A
So
if
you're
interested
in
this
kind
of
thing
check
out
the
YouTube
videos
and
then
maybe
hit
up
David
YouTube,
you
drove
in
four
options
for
real-world
educational
opportunities,
Stephen
I'm
gonna.
Let
you
just
jump
right
in
and
maybe
give
us
a
recap
of
what
happened
two
weeks
ago
and
what
we're
gonna
do
today.
So
two.
B
We
had
a
look
at
the
the
form
and
content
and
function
of
that
partnership
and
obviously,
what
we
wish
to
achieve
and
of
that
partnership
know
the
objectives
that
we
would
like
to
see
come
from
it.
We
didn't
really
touch
on
anything
risk
based.
It
was
mostly
a
case
of
saying
you
know:
why
are
we
doing
this?
B
How
we
going
forward
and
I
articulated,
mostly
where
this
partnership
helps
us
in
terms
of
the
the
network
effects
on
the
business
development,
side
and
marketing
side,
the
partnership
extends
to
looking
at
know
the
the
depth
of
talent
that
is
available
in
the
industry
and
if
we
want
to
tap
on
that,
we
can
and
then
obviously
the
the
interesting
part
is
formalizing
the
regulatory
plan
and
figuring
out
how
to
become
not
only
partners
with
the
regulators.
But
you
know
ongoing
partners
with
all
of
the
risk
regulatory
bodies
that
we
need
to
around
the
world.
B
Big
ask
big
task,
but
the
point
being
is
we
have
to
start
someone
so
today
we
can
go
back
to
very
basic
risk
management.
Again
we
can
start
talking
about
all
those
sort
of
wonderful
things.
That's
we've
spoken
about
before
we've
covered
everything
from
the
the
the
underlying
risks
in
the
system
through
to
calculate
in
the
creation
ratio
and
to
the
debt
ceiling.
We
started
touching
on
correlation
risk,
which
I
think
and
everyone
is
probably
more
favored
with,
and
we
still
have
to
maybe
have
a
look
at
stability
fee.
B
How
that's
partly
it
specifically
I
know.
We
did
touch
on
that
and
you
know
bringing
the
concept
of
economic
capital
and
then,
after
that
we
can
start
talking
about
governance,
actual
governance,
you
know
what
does
it
mean?
How
does
it
work
and
what
are
the
responsibilities?
So
any
questions
before
I
start
any
questions
from
folks,
online
or
folks
that
we've
had
on
on
the
social
media
side,
I'm.
A
B
A
I,
should
you
know
what
I
would
love
to
see
and
I
guess
we
probably
shouldn't
be
planning
these
meetings
while
we're
having
these
meetings,
but
what
I
would
love
to
see
towards
the
end
of
this?
This
track
is
maybe
a
summary
call
where
we
just
like
recap
exactly
like
in
every
one
of
the
major
points
and
that
well.
B
What
do
what
I'm
hoping
to
do
on
that?
On
that?
The
back
of
that
is
the
third
paper
that
is
going
to
come
out
soon.
I
promise
is
going
to
come
up
with
a
a
technical
addendum
as
well,
and
that
technical
addendum-
you
probably
going
to
have
to
download
from
the
website
because
it's
got
latex
in
it,
which
is
obviously
just
a
mathematical
typeset
that
medium,
the
blog
doesn't
really
like
at
all.
B
We
can
actually
start
talking
about
know
the
different
aspects
of
what
are
we
thinking
so
not
to
glaze
everyone's
eyes
over,
but
I
just
wants
you
then
just
emphasize
two
things
so
correlation
risk,
as
everyone
has
recalled,
is
about
finding
that
diversification
buffer
in
the
collateral
portfolio.
What
I
mean
by
that
is
in
the
normal
investment
space.
If
you've
got
a
diversification
benefit,
you
use
it
what
it
means.
That
is
that
you
increase
your
exposure
to
obviously
up
your
returns.
B
So
therefore,
your
return
to
risk
ratio
will
be
improved,
but
in
the
space
that
we
operate
in,
we
looking
for
risk
mitigation
intersecting
with
business
development.
We
don't
have
the
choice
of
saying:
well,
we
only
going
to
have
certain
levels
of
collateral
types
and
then
go
out
there
and
purchase
those
collateral
types
up
to
that
level.
B
Now
that
then
also
leads
on
to
how
you
book
build
the
collateral
portfolio,
it's
all
very
well
to
ten
collateral
types
and
give
them
debt
ceilings
and
declaring
all
good
and
well,
but
the
way
that
you
actually
increase
that
portfolio
size
is
the
independent
of
how
those
collateral
types
are
used.
You
might
find
that
of
the
10.
Only
two
are
used
or
up
to
ten
you
max
out
on
one
and
you
kind
of
stuck
there.
You
need
to
make
a
business
decision
on
the
back
of
it.
This
is
not
purely
a
risk
function.
C
A
B
The
two
policy
tools
that
we
can
use
the
one
is
missus
stability
theory.
This
is
where
I
was
going
to
hit
you
next
so,
with
the
stability
fee,
you've
got
the
ability
to
look
after
the
demand
and
supply
of
dye
overall
now
by
obviously
attracting
the
requisite
amount
of
GDP
users,
but
you
can
use
a
very
specific
policy
tool
for
each
of
the
the
collateral
types.
It
is
not
terribly
easy
to
do
if
you
find
that
certain
collateral
types
are
not
used,
a
jury
isn't
because
of
the
level
of
the
stability
fee.
B
It
really
is
more
because
of
the
liquidity
of
the
collateral.
So
that's
why
it
behooves
the
the
risk
team
to
ensure
that
the
collateral
types
that
we
use
have
a
very
care
defined,
a
clearly
defined
path
to
a
secondary
market,
so
that
price
discovery
is
here,
so
that
liquidation
is
clear
so
that
you
know
that
if
you
do
purchase
collateral
in
a
liquidation,
you
know
where
to
go.
So
that
is
really
where
I
think
the
business
risk
would
be
is
to
ensure
that
we
do
have
that
liquidity
basis.
B
But
the
most
important
part
of
suppose
is
what
the
policy
instruments
a
component
is
and
how
we
use
it.
As
you
saw
previously,
the
stability
Theon
eath
was
picked
up
from
from
fifty
basis
points
to
two
and
a
half
percent.
There
was
more
getting
the
stability
fee
in
line
with
the
short-term
risk-free
rates
on
you
know,
US
interest
rates.
It
just
gave
a
more
comparable
feel
with
fifty
basis
points
worse.
No,
it's
it's
good,
but
it's
a
it's!
B
A
nice
lead
for
everyone
to
get
used
to
the
get
used
to
the
product,
get
used
to
the
idea,
but
when
you
have
a
look
at
something
like
two-and-a-half
percent,
it's
still
very
competitive,
but
it
is
at
least
in
the
region
of
of
what
is,
is
realistic
and
realistic
to
maintain
okay,
so
that's
stability
fee.
Now
one
has
to
look
back.
B
You
take
your
99%
valued
risk
as
your
conditional
level
and
you
have
a
look
at
what
happens
over.
In
other
words,
you
look
at
the
extent
of
the
tail
risk.
You
really
go
far
to
the
rights
of
the
tail
risk,
or
rather,
if
you
look
at
it
far
to
the
left
of
the
terrorist
and
you
aggregate
what
that
exposure
is
going
to
look
like
past
a
certain
level.
So
you
may.
B
Okay,
so
tail
risk
is
very
much
the
same
as
your
Black
Swan
event,
it's
something
that
is
highly
unlikely
to
happen
and
the
invent
and
in
the
event
that
it
happens
generally,
you
would
have
no
idea
how
much
you'd
applause
leaders
so
a
whole
bunch
of
very
smart
people
used
very
specific
statistical
distributions
to
figure
out
what
tail
risk
looks
like
given
a
certain
event
occurs
now,
when
I
say
a
certain
event,
it's
almost
like
saying.
If
a
Black
Swan
is
going
to
happen,
there's
your
condition.
How
much
should
we
expect
to
lose
now?
B
B
B
He
came
up
with
an
analysis
that
showed
how
to
not
only
predict
when
flooding
is
going
to
happen,
but
to
what
extent
flooding
was
going
to
happen,
but
once
again,
flooding
is
a
very
no
improbable
tale
events,
and
it
was
very
important
to
him
as
a
hydrologist
as
a
hydrologist,
to
understand
when
this
could
happen
and
the
extent
to
which
it
would
affect
everyone,
because
he
needs
to
make
sure
that
he
had
the
the
correct
dam
walls.
The
correct
infrastructure
in
place
to
know
consume
the
flood.
B
A
Okay,
that's
fascinating
I
thought
that
clears
it
up,
so
it
did
yes.
The
other
question
I
have
is:
how
are
these
models,
the
the
largely
theoretical
models
generated
you
just
look
back
20
years
and
try
and
determine
how
many
things
nobody
expected
has
occurred
there.
Or
do
you
assume
that
over
long
enough
time
period
something
is
gonna,
go
horribly
wrong
and
you
just
sort
of
factor
that
into
the
calculation?
Well,.
B
Yeah,
that's
the
interesting
thing,
so
everyone
is
afraid
with
the
Gaussian
distribution
or
otherwise
known
as
the
normal
distribution.
The
the
interesting
thing
about
the
normal
distribution,
which
I'm
sure
everyone
knows
it's
a
very
naturally
occurring
phenomenon
right.
It's
not
something
that
some
man
is
just
constructed
on
out
of.
B
No
it
actually
something
that
you
see
that
happens
around
us
in
nature
every
single
day
in
the
same
sense,
tail
events,
things
that
are
extreme
seem
to
happen
with
a
certain
amount
of
frequency,
as
well
with
a
certain
amount
of
devastation
in
in
risk
parlance,
it's
you've
got
two
different.
What
you've
got
low
impact
high
frequency
events,
which
effectively
is
your
some
normal
distribution
event
and
you've,
got
your
low
frequency
high
impact
events,
which
is
which
are
effectively
your
tail
against
your
your,
your
your
Black
Swan
events.
Again,
there
are
subjects
out
there.
B
There
are
subject
matters
and
there's
there
is
a
field
of
knowledge
out
there.
That
looks
at
trying
to
understand
exactly
how
to
cover
for
that
and
the
one
field
that
clearly
has
encapsulated
that
a
lot
is
insurance
because
your
insurers,
let's
look
at
Lloyds,
for
instance,
I
have
particular
like
the
weights
was
they've,
got
something
called
alternative
risk
transfer,
which
means
that
they
look
at
all
kinds
of
insurance
from
something
called
catastrophe.
A
B
Is
the
funny
thing
is
I
started
out
with
the
idea
of
being
an
actuary
and
I
decided?
Well,
actually,
myself
and
my
professor,
we
sat
down
and
we
kind
of
said
you
know.
Maybe
you
need
to
go
into
more
derivatives
and
financial
engineering
rather
than
insurance,
so
we
sort
of
shook
hands
and
we
we
parted
ways
but
with
in
actuarial
science.
If
you
look
into
the
the
sort
of
history
of
where
it
comes
from,
it's
absolutely
fascinating.
The
first
sense
of
it
actually
started
with
I'll.
Give
you
an
example
like
Scottish
Widows.
B
They
wanted
to
make
sure
that
when
one
of
their
priests
died,
one
of
their
clergymen
died
that
they
had
enough
left
over
for
their
families
to
be
looked
after,
so
they
basically
started
keeping
data
about
who
passed
away
when
at
what
time
know
how
much
was
needed
to
compensate
their
families
to
look
up
to
their
families
and
from
this
Scottish
Widows
was
basically
greeted,
and
now
it's
one
of
the
most
established
and
one
of
the
oldest
insurance
companies
in
the
world.
As
I
said
beforehand,
Lloyd's
was
a
coffee
house.
B
It
was
really
where
business
men
got
together
and
they
said
well,
you
know
I
want
to
send
the
ship
soon
around
the
the
Cape
of
Good
Hope
and
maybe
go
to
India
to
go
pick
up
spices,
but
you
know
I,
don't
know
if
it's
going
to
be
back
what
happens
if
I
lose
my
ship?
What
happens
if
I
lose
my
my
product?
What
do
I
do
and
there
was
a
businessman-
they
said:
okay,
cool
I
think
this
captain
is
really
good.
He
knows
how
to
do
this.
B
His
experience,
Islander
righted
and
the
concept
of
underwriting
was
literally
someone
taking
an
original
contract
and
signing
underneath
the
signatory.
Therefore
creating
the
notion
of
underwriting
I
mean
all
of
this
basically
plays
into
the
fact
that
extreme
events,
these
extreme
irrational
events,
have
always
been
part
and
parcel
of
everyone's
world,
and
even
though
it
is
not
the
most
intuitive
thing
to
quantify,
very
smart
people
have
attempted
to
to
quantify
it,
and
a
lot
of
it
actually
has
been
to
a
certain
extent.
B
Kwatak
successful,
at
least
in
terms
of
understanding,
know
these
these
extreme
events
that
we
face-
and
this
is
all
because
of
actuaries
that
have
formulated
the
the
life
insurance
and
the
alternative
risk
transfer
of
markets.
We
just
borrow
a
lot
from
them
and
they're
obviously
got
the
the
corner
of
physicists
that
appeared
in
the
1990s,
where
they
they
had
a
look
at
how
certain
phenomena
happened
in
the
real
world
and
they've
seen
how
extreme
events
were
considered
there
and
they
were
supported
their
knowledge
of
with
financial
space.
It's.
A
Amazing,
but
by
trade
I
was
a
Systems
Administrator,
and
so
it
sounds
like
there's
some
overlap
here,
because
in
systems
administration
is
trying
to
quantify
the
inevitability
of
disaster
as
well,
but
really
less
important
scope
than
can
actually.
But
there's
there's
some
alignment
thing
all
right.
Sorry
for
getting
you
down
this
this
road,
we
can.
You
can
get
back
to
the
talk
if
you
like,
so.
A
I
love
that
I
haven't
been
paying
attention.
No,
it
doesn't
seem
like
anybody.
Spiked
up
I
usually
give
that
reminder
not
forgotten
today.
Anybody
in
that
chat,
if
you
have
any
questions
at
all,
feel
free
to
interrupt
at
any
time
we're
happy
to
take
any
comments
or
give
us
at
you
starting
telling
I
start
in
the
house.
One:
okay,
good.
C
Sorry
I
had
to
fix
that
few
decks.
Yes,
I
actually
also
posted
this.
This
github
page
that
Scott
tripping
or
whatever
his
name
is
he
puts
together,
he's
been
doing
a
pretty
good
job
of
doing
a
text
summary
of
all
these
risk
meetings,
so
I
sent
that
also
it's
used.
Even
if
you
want
to
take
a
look
at
it,
yeah.
C
B
So
then,
to
to
go
into
points
again,
if
there,
if
you
know
for
the
question,
so
we
covered
correlation
risk
and
economic
capital
and
economic
capital,
meaning
how
much
money
do
you
put
aside
for
these
really
really
terrible
things
and
then,
in
order
to
have
it
money
put
aside,
which
is
kind
of
like
your,
your
I
want
to
use
this
term,
but
it's
almost
like
an
insurance
fund.
How
much
do
you
need
to
pay
the
person
to
provide
that
fund
and
that
is
effectively
a
component
of
the
stability
fee,
but
in
a
short
order?
B
That's
going
to
into
governance,
and
you
know
effectively
the
responsibility
of
MKR
token
holders
with
respect
to
governing
the
make
it
our
system,
and
the
first
thing
I
want
to
basically
highlight-
is
that
MKR
tokens
should
theoretically
exist
in
two
forms.
The
first
form
is
to
be
constantly
involved
with
the
voting
protocol,
because
we
have
something
called
a
continuous
approval,
voting
system
that
affects
state
change
and
you
need
to
continuously
apply
your
mind
to
the
make
it
our
system
to
ensure
that
it
functions
in
the
way
that
you
believe
it
should.
B
B
That
means
you
don't
see
a
reason
to
be
voting
right
now
and
if
you
don't
see
a
reason
for
voting
right
now,
someone
else
might
and
in
that
they
may
find
value
in
doing
so
so
they'll
purchase
you
and
camera
tokens
from
you.
If
you
are,
if
you
find
that
you
want
to
sit
back
and
allow
the
process
to
first
discover
itself,
you
obviously
might
have
your
mkr
tokens
in
your
water,
that
is,
it
is
a
form
of
almost
good
apathy.
B
B
Those
three
options
are
always
available
to
you,
and
in
there
lies
the
essence
of
governments
in
there
lies
the
idea
that
you
need
to
be
aware
of
the
fact
that
you
have
these
options
and
if
you
take
the
options,
you've
got
fiduciary
interest
that
you
are
are
given
to
yourself.
You
do
not
have
accountability
to
anyone
else,
except
yourself
in
that.
C
B
Actually
extend
accountability
to
die
users
and
CDP
users
and
other
stakeholders,
but
essentially
is
an
extension
of
having
that
fiduciary
interest
to
look
after
yourself
and
what
you
see
as
the
correct
direction
and
deterministic
function
of
make
it
out
as
a
stable
provider.
Let
that
one
settle
in
for
a
bit
because
it's
a
kind
of
a
new
thing.
B
On
the
one
hand,
you've
got
a
force
saying
you
need
to
vote
and
on
the
other
hand,
you
have
a
force
saying
well,
you
need
to
liquidate
and
those
two
forces
will
constantly
be
banging
against
each
other
and
in
that
you'll
come
up
with
this
diamond
of
price
discovery
or
what
a
book
really
means.
Yeah.
A
There's
there's
a
lot
to
unpack
there
and
it
touches
on
one
of
the
things
that
people
wrestle
with
when
they're.
First
looking
at
the
maker,
Dyer
ecosystem
is
well.
What
are
the
incentives
to
maintain
that
stability,
because
we
have
disparate
groups
of
actors
that
presumably
in
any
kind
of
economic
system,
are
self-interested
right.
The.
C
A
Owners
want
more
attractive
rates.
The
dye
holders
potentially
want
a
better
savings
rate.
We
have
various
groups
of
arbitrage
and
traders
that
may
want
something
completely
different,
but
I
think
you
touched
on
something
that
kind
of
crystallized
it
for
me
is
that
as
a
cohesive
whole
everybody's
goal
should
be
the
stability
and
trustworthiness
of
the
dye
coin
itself,
with
the
token
and
anything
that
jeopardizes
that
stability
for
the
ability
for
stability
seekers
to
purchase
the
diet,
Oken
is
bad
for
everybody.
A
B
I
want
to
give
a
shout
out
to
0x,
and
particularly
an
article
written
by
their
governance,
researcher
I
think
his
name
is
Peter
Sykes.
He
wrote
a
wonderful
abstract
on
on
on
governance
way.
He
took
some
ideas
from
the
corporate
governance
world
and
he
translated
into
how
we
should
start
thinking
about
these
things
in
a
decentralized
world.
B
The
aspect
was
very
clear.
It
said
what
do
you
ultimately
want
to
be
in
terms
of
your
governance?
Do
you
want
to
have
some
sort
of
equity
finance
structure
where
you
have
you
know
one
share
one
vote,
or
do
you
want
this
consumer
cooperative
where,
basically,
you
don't
have
real
sense
of
increase
in
value
and
your
vote,
but
you've
got
a
very
simple
static
structure
going
forward
about
who
says
what
and
when
problem
there
is
that
if
you
have
the
equity
structure,
then
you're
going
to
be
subjected
to
plutocracy
information
of
cartels.
B
You're
going
to
have
your
natural
problems
involved
with
that.
But
if
you
go
to
the
consumer
cooperative,
then
you
won't
have
traction
you're
not
going
to
attract
funds.
You
won't
have
the
ability
to
take
this
forward.
It's
going
to
be
a
slow
process,
so
therefore
you
have
to
be
very
clear
about
what
your
organization's
intent
is,
so
that
it
matches
that
structure
appropriately.
B
The
overall
suggestion
and
I
hope:
I,
don't
discredit
pizza
science
saying
this,
but
it
really
is
a
case
of
saying:
what's
the
hybrid,
what's
the
in-between
that's
going
to
match
your
organization
and
I
and
I
would
stress
to
to
go
and
read
it
because
it
really
is,
is
really
good
he's
going
to
have
couple
more
coming
out
as
well
I'm
looking
forward
to
those
articles
to
read,
so
that's
your
ex,
but
with
respect
to
us,
the
one
thing
that
I
noticed
is
everyone's
discussion
about
governance.
Was
around
that
point?
B
It
was
simply
around
this
whole
idea
of
saying
what
does
governance
mean?
How
does
it
form
plutocracies?
How
do
you
make
sure
that
those
pitaka
seas
don't
define,
and
this
is
one
part-
I've
actually
started
writing
in
mind,
and
my
third
article
is,
you
can
have
a
what's
the
correct
word
you
can
devolve
into
these
states.
We've
got
so
many
groups
that
form
around
what
their
interpretation
is.
What
is
good
for
the
system
that
eventually,
the
the
group
construct
forms
where
it's
more
important
to
win,
rather
than
actually
creates
a
better
interpretation?
B
So
you
start
getting
these
special
interests,
and
you
know
it's
nothing
wrong
with
that.
It's
just
a
natural
state,
it's
kind
of
like
the
lesser
of
the
evils,
but
not
necessarily
the
worst
thing
in
the
world.
Special
interest
groups
and
you've
got
lobbyists.
Things
that
obviously
resonate
with
everyone
is
something
terrible
and
something
you
want
to
do
without.
But
that's
what
happens
when
you
do
not
have
an
objective
that
is
painfully
clear.
That
is
very
obvious.
B
So
from
the
naked
eyes
point
of
view-
and
this
is
where
I
think
we
have
that
leg
up-
is
that
we've
got
this.
All
roads
lead
to
wrong
mentality
where
all
the
roads
are
the
incentives
and
they're
all
pointing
towards
wrong,
which
is
the
stable
stability
of
our
coin.
It
is
very
clear
how
and
what
we
need
to
do
in
order
to
establish
the
stability
of
the
coin,
and
this
whole
foundation
is
based
on
vetting
through
rigor
and
scientific
inquiry.
So
there's
no
subjectivity
here
in
terms
of
finding
you
know
what
our
goal
should
be.
B
There
is
going
to
be.
You
know,
different
interpretations
of
how
we
can
go
about
aligning
those
incentives.
I'm
not
saying
we
are
completely
devoid
of
subjectivity,
but
we've
taken
a
subject
matter
that
is
extraordinarily
broad
and
really
know
represents
the
last
2,000
years
of
thoughts
and
we've
said
well.
Instead
of
trying
to
tackle
that
monster.
Why
don't
we
just
realize
that
our
system
is
one
about
a
singular
purpose,
and
if
we
can
focus
on
that,
we
can
reverse-engineer
out
a
governance
structure
that
has
a
better
chance
of
ultimately
achieving
that
objective.
B
B
Clear
sense
of
granularity:
that's
going
to
create
a
permutation
of
government
structures
where
beforehand,
if
you
have
a
look
at
these
sort
of
public
governance
or
corporate
governance,
and
you
have
a
look
all
the
research
behind
it,
it
generally
gravitates
to
certain
structures,
no
matter
where
you
start
to
end
up
gravitating
to
certain
structures
and
those
structures
are
generally
representative
of
how
open
interpretation
is
of
what
you
want
to
achieve.
I
mean
if
you
have
a
look
at
any
one
country.
The
purpose
of
of
governing
that
country
is
what
I
mean
everyone
would
say.
B
B
You
know
the
ideal
construct,
or
at
least
come
down
to
an
ideal
construct
that
would
achieve
it,
so
certain
formulations
appear
and
everyone
will
always
gravitate
towards
them
and
we'll
start
discussing
everything
from
you
know:
they'll
start
discussing
everything
from
no
communism
through
to
to
capitalism
and
everything
in
between
that's,
where
I
need
to
re-emphasize
again
that
when
you
talk
about
governance
on
a
chain
like
aetherium
or
on
a
chain
like
tasers,
you've
got
to
have
a
look
at
that
and
say
well.
That
is
a
different
kettle
of
fish.
B
You're
talking
about
a
completely
different
thing,
you
know,
ideally,
what
they
want
is
an
objective
is
completely
different
to
what
we
need
is
much
active.
That
being
said,
one
needs
to
consider
the
systemic
and
existential
form
of
our
governance
vs..
For
instance,
theorems
of
one
of
the
questions
posed
to
me
was:
is
there
a
direct
link
between
the
two
now?
Will
our
governance
affect
etherium
governance?
Now,
given
that
will
any
governance
affect
the
the
native?
B
You
know
blockchains
governance,
it's
an
interesting
point
to
ponder
on,
but
that
really
starts
talking
about
almost
like
what
are
the
monopolies
on
each
of
these?
These
change,
no
will
be
it.
Will
there
be
a
consequence
of
someone
being
dominant
and
therefore
their
form
naturally
takes
over
the
form
of
the
of
the
my
blockchain
I.
Don't
know
it
was
just
a
sort
of
interesting
question
to
to
think
on.
Well,
it
sorry.
A
B
Think
that
there's
a
very
good
question
there.
Let
me
just
answer:
yours
I,
think
that
the
the
natural
growth
of
the
economy
on
the
blockchain
will
determine
that
I
know
that
snap
strikes
answer.
It's
almost
like
saying
that,
if
you
find
that
naked
out
does
actually
facilitates
all
growth
on
in
the
blockchain
economy,
then
yes
you're,
going
to
find
that
our
governance
is
going
to
sort
of
define
how
a
theorem
is
used,
but
I
want
to
facilitate
growth
on
the
blockchain,
not
all
of
it.
B
So
there
is
that
aspect
to
keep
in
mind
how
that's
gonna
play
out.
I,
really,
don't
know
it's
very
organic.
It's
really.
It's
a
case
of
what
what
organizations
will
will
release
their
goods
and
services
on
to
the
blockchain
when
they
do
it?
What
traction
are
they
gonna
get
how
we
can
allow
how
we
are
going
to
help
them
facilitate
the
transaction,
will
value
and
generate
the
revenue
and
get
you
know
it
gets
valued
and
get
a
sense
of
value
on
the
on
the
blockchain
as
well.
B
I,
don't
know,
but
I
mean
these
are
the
things
that
you
have
to
look
out
for
and
realize,
as
they
start
occurring,
one
needs
to
figure
out
how
to
manage
it.
One
needs
to
figure
out
how
to
actually
be
a
part
of
it
and
bolster
it
as
opposed
to
you
know,
exploited
the
Ameri
Anna
asked
a
question
yet
Stephen.
Do
we
foresee
a
conflict
of
interest
when
proof
mistake
implements
it
between
stability,
fee
die
savings
rates?
Well,
what's
POS,
then
I.
A
B
Okay,
so
now
I
understand
what
you're
talking
about
sorry
I
thought
they
just
swung
me
around
a
bit.
I
have
no
idea,
no
COO.
The
point
being
is
it's
almost
like
the
same
as
saying
we'll
our
governance
effect
their
governance
because
you've
got
you
know
different
incentive
structures,
different
objectives
if
they
overlap?
Yes,
it's
probably
going
to
be
some
sort
of
competing
dynamic.
How
that's
going
to
manifest
I
have
no
idea,
but
in
terms
of
its
dependency,
that's
kind
of
the
only
time
will
tell
sort
of
situation.
Yeah.
A
I
think
that
there
might
be
some
different
use
cases
here.
So
if
somebody's
seeking
leverage
they're
not
going
to
get
leverage
from
sticking
with
proof
of
stake,
they
can
get
it
through
our
system
and
it's
important
to
remember
that
when
multi
collateral
die
comes
out
and
all
of
our
dreams
are
realized,
III
am
won't,
be
the
number
one
collateral
x.
What
we
have
just
be
part
of
a
portfolio,
so
I
I'm
not
entirely
sure
that
right,
I
guess.
A
A
C
A
C
C
But
if
you
know
we
have
a
bullion
die
to
billion
die,
you
know
whatever
I
think
there
would
definitely
be
some
kind
of
you
know,
kind
of
equilibrium,
kind
of
reached
between
the
two,
where
right
as
soon
as
proof
of
steak,
has
any
kind
of
better
returns
than
die
right.
People
will
pile
into
proof
of
steak,
which
will
kind
of
just
bring
the
the
right
down
and
converges
on
with
the
die
savings
rate
is
I,
guess.
A
That's
interesting
to
contemplate
whether
proof
of
steak
and
people,
logging
up
their
ether
and
the
make
a
data
system
don't
ultimately
achieve
the
same.
Volvo's
right
is
yeah
I,
so
well,
I!
Guess
it
improves
steak.
We're
looking
for
validators
to
you,
know,
sign
blocks
and
all
the
rest,
but
it's
also
the
goal
of
just
simply
hang
up
or
lowering
the
velocity
of
aetherium
a.
C
A
C
A
C
B
Well,
let's
put
it
this
way:
I
mean
there's
just
a.
There
is
an
inflection
point
that
needs
to
be
realized
and
that
inflection
point
is
when
a
certain
mass
of
goods
and
services
hits
aetherium,
because
right
now
it
looks
just
like
a
utility
token,
but
it
should
actually
represents
a
burgeoning
economic
system
and
as
soon
as
you
realize
that,
then
I
would
say
that
you
know
you
would
have
a
massive
increase,
not
only
in
value
but
in
all
sort
of
purposeful
uses
that
you
can
have
with
it.
B
But
that's
just
me
off
the
top
of
my
head.
There
is
the
virtuous
circle
that
I
have
and
that's
why
I
like
make
it
out.
So
much
is
that
you
have
collateral
types,
they
want
to
be
included
and
those
collateral
types
will
also
need
realization
of
value
on
aetherium.
So
you've
got
that
wonderful
connection
between
being
and
collateral
type
being
able
to
provide
by
to
the
system
as
well
as
participating
in
the
system
using
die.
B
So
you've
got
that
connection
and
if
we
act
as
the
appropriate
flywheel
to
constantly
bring
a
true
transactional
value
to
each
of
these
collateral
types.
So
the
economy
on
its
theorem
will
grow
and
then
folks,
who
realize
that
ether
is
not
just
the
ability
to
function
on
ethereum,
but
ether
actually
represents
that
functionality
and
economic
growth
and
economic
value.
B
A
A
B
No
no
I've,
seen
too
many
too
many
bits
go
astray
and
people
had
to
put
like
salt
and
pepper
and
their
hats
or
something
but
I.
Just
I
have
the
sense
that
if
you
have
a
look
at
the
natural
momentum
that
we
are
getting
is
traction
there,
which
means
that
people
are
starting
to
see
the
business
stack
building.
You
know
you
looking
at
business,
saying:
okay,
we
all
know
what
the
online
infrastructure
looks
like
we've
got,
many
use
cases
know
from
from
ether
to
EOS,
to
to
tase
us
and
so
on
and
so
forth.
B
The
point
being
now
is
not
just
looking
at
this
as
an
infrastructure
point
of
view,
but
now
you
looking
at
this
from
an
organizational
point
of
view
from
it
that
point
of
view
from
a
goods
and
service
point
of
view,
but
that's
ultimately
where
things
are
going
to
have
to
go.
If
this
whole
space
needs
to
work,
you
need
to
have
a
goods
and
services
paradigm
in
place,
which
means
you
need
to
have
a
supply
chain
paradigm
in
place
with
me,
which
means
you
need
to
have
logistics
paradigm
in
place.
B
All
of
these
things
are
required.
This
is
what
I
like
about
Andreessen,
because
their
first
two
core
investments
was
definitely
and
us,
which
essentially
means
they're
looking
at
infrastructure
and
transaction
building,
something
in
that
core
portfolio
that
is
going
to
be
representative
of
a
new
economy.
They
see
it
coming.
A
Sir
I'm
not
sure
you're
gonna
get
any
arguments
here.
I
agree
with
you,
Stephen
I
think
that
eventually
it
will
be
supplying
it
with
something
else,
but
that's
that's
a
while
down
the
road
and
I
think
that
everybody
will
see
that
train
coming
long
before
it
gets
here
so
plenty
of
opportunities
to
expand
the.
B
Other
thing
that's
also
interesting,
is
I've
been
and
I've
been
not
as
exposed
as
most
of
our
technical
guys
have,
but
to
polka,
dots
and
cosmos
and
that
interoperability,
even
though
I
kind
of
from
you
want
to
talk
about
real
governance,
complication
and
depth
of
thinking
get
up
in
cosmos
that
that
was
really
incredible.
I
was
on
a
panel
with
one
of
the
cofounders
of
polka
dot
and
was
really
interesting
to
hear
what
he
had
to
say.
B
He
articulates
it
very
well
what
the
challenges
he
faces
and,
quite
frankly,
those
are
real
challenges
and
if
they
can
bite
down
into
that,
and
we
as
a
system
can
actually
pour
to
various
other
networks,
it
just
explodes
even
more
for
make
it
up
it.
Just
there
is
the
only
way
I
see
us
as
an
organization
puttering
along
is
if
the
entire
crypto
space
is,
is
either
imaging
because
of
regulation
or
is
is
derailed
because
of
some
strange
legislation.
I,
don't
see
anything
else.
C
A
Either
a
pun
on
yet
just
one
or
a
young
one,
Jost
uh-huh.
The
question
is:
with
a
launch
of
blog
streams.
Liquid
side
chain
has
maker
doubt
ever
entertained
the
possibility
of
transitioning
the
protocol
to
a
side
chain
based
off
Bitcoin,
as
opposed
to
theory,
I
think
that
I
Mick,
you
can
jump
into.
If
you
have
some
insights
here
but
I
think
that
where
there
needs
to
be
some
maturity,
I
think
in
the
Bitcoin
RSK
risk
Nick
correct
me.
If
I'm
sure.
C
C
C
A
That's
something
a
point
that
a
lot
of
people
lose
when
they're
talking
about
eutherian
killers.
Is
they
assume
that
a
superior
technological,
stash
or
increased
transactions
per
second
are
the
key
to
you
know
supplanting
eutherian,
but
it's
not,
and
it's
said
over
and
over
again,
but
it's
the
network
effect,
it's
the
it's
the
sense
of
its
developers,
it's
the
huge
community,
it's
where
everybody's
already
doing
business,
so
there
won't
be
a
situation
where
we
wake
up.
A
So
I
touch
on
to
Nick's
point
no
profit
office
right.
What
we're
getting
to
this
point,
where
it
I
think
that
the
tail
is
going
to
start
wagging
the
dog,
where
it's
the
collateral
providers
that
are
gonna,
be
sort
of
setting
the
stage
for
us.
It's
whoever's.
Whoever
puts
you
know.
12
volts
worth
of
gold
on
chain
is
potentially
going
to
be
deciding
where,
where
organizations
like
us
end
up
moving
to
and
that
sort
of
trickles
down
this,
that's
my
that's
my
honey.
Nobody
really
knows.
B
I
mean
the
one
thing
I
always
like
to
use
as
analogy,
and
this
maybe
dates
myself
as
well,
but
does
anybody
remember
playing
real
time
strategy
games
and
you
know
what
you
had
to
do
was
send
your
peon
out
or
your
peasant
arts,
and
they
basically
got
rid
of
the
fun
war.
Now,
that's
the
same
thing
that's
happening
here.
It's
not
so
much
a
case
of
what
pieces
you
put
on
the
board.
It's
basically
that
for
the
war
that
is
actually
cleared
up,
so
you
can
see
the
landscape
in
front
of
you.
B
The
space
that
we
seeing
right
now
is
constantly
being
redefined.
It's
constantly
expanding
and
you
know
the
notion
of
when
it
takes
all-
is
starting
to
disappear
very
quickly,
I'm
starting
to
see
that,
especially
from
the
stable
coin,
point
of
view
everyone
debating,
even
when
I
was
in
I,
was
in
I,
was
on
a
panel
in
San
Francisco,
we're
talking
about
governance
and
what's
the
chap
from
Xerox
will
were,
and
he
turned
to
me-
and
he
said
you
know
if
maked
odd
turns
out
to
be
the
stable
queen
of
choice
that
takes
over
the
world.
B
You
know,
and
basically
everyone
uses
it
and
I
looked
at
this
and
I
thought
you
know
the
narrative
has
always
been
that
there's
going
to
be
one
that
rules
them
all
like
real
Lord
of
the
Rings
thing.
In
my
opinion,
they're
going
to
be
many
stable
coins,
you're
going
to
find
that
those
salient
features
of
the
different
coins
are
going
to
resonate
differently
with
different
organizations,
and
it's
going
to
be
extraordinarily
dependent
on
what
the
landscape
is
going
to
look
like.
So
we
can't
rule
these
things
out.
B
We
can't
all
decide
to
apply
it
over
the
half-eaten
Apple
at
a
freaking
banquet
table.
It
just
doesn't
make
sense.
So
the
fact
that
we
have
these
these
you
know
different
networks
coming
and
we
have
these
different,
stable
coins
coming
I.
Welcome
it
because
they're
gonna
make
things
a
lot
clearer
for
us
they're
going
to
help
us
and
if
we
don't
sort
of
embrace
them
in
terms
of
being
participants.
Now
all
we're
going
to
do
is
they'll
start
shooting
our
intro.
So
so
that's
kind
of
my
opinion
about
you
know.
B
B
A
Amazing
point
to
Megan
I
agree
with
you
completely
I
think
that
this
natural
human
inclination
to
look
for
out
winner
is
counterproductive
in
this
space.
There's
there's
room
for
a
lot
of
different
state
will
find
solutions
as
long
as
we're
the
best,
and
it
was
my
building
I'm
fine
with
a
bunch
of
entrance
into
the
it's
the
market.
It's
calm
that
might
be
a
good
place
to
sort
of
stick
a
fork
in
it,
though
right
one
flow
we're
at
the
top
of
the
hour.
A
Now,
though,
so,
if
anybody
has
any
burning
last-minute
questions
about
one
season
to
make
I'll
give
you
a
three
and
a
half
seconds
to
make
it
or
else
we're
gonna
shut
this
thing
down:
Thank
You
Steven.
That
was
amazing.
Another
I
think
I
counted
303
mind-blowing
events,
so
that's
there
might
be
any
record.
So,
thanks
about
fun.