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A
Yeah,
so
I
am
a
last-minute
stand-in
for
my
good
friend
richard
muirhead,
also
at
fabric
ventures.
That's
working
with
eric
on
the
on
the
board
of
the
foundation
and
big
supporters
of
nia,
I'm
a
venture
partner
at
fabric
and
I'm
based
in
lisbon.
I
live
here
my
day.
Job
is,
I
run
orchid
labs,
which
is
a
decentralized
vpn
on
ethereum,
sorry
guys,
but
but
I
also
do
a
whole
bunch
of
work
in
other
parts
of
ecosystems
and
I'm
in
full
node
with
a
min
based
team.
A
So
I
spent
quite
a
bit
of
time
thinking
about
nir
and
what's
about
to
be
nearly
happening,
that's
how
I
always
do
that.
Joke
yeah.
B
And
for
those
who
don't
know
me,
my
name
is
eric
troutman
and
I
run
the
near
foundation
and
yeah.
Basically,
we're
gonna
jam
a
little
bit
on
everything,
anything
and
honestly
open
open
to
some
some
questions
to
to
pop
with
maybe
at
the
end
as
well.
B
So
I
I
don't
know
if
there's
anything
that
that
you
specifically
want
to
want
to
jump
into,
but
I
I
am
actually
I
I'm
interested
on
your
side
actually
being
being
involved
with
fabric,
which
is
which
is
a
team,
that's
pushing
very
actively
into
web
three.
What
what
are
you
seeing
across
the
ecosystem?
That's
a
little
bit
different
from
from
the
web
2
world
you've
also,
obviously
been
deeply
involved
with
orcid
that
that
sort
of
that,
where,
like
what
does
it,
take
to
succeed
as
a
startup.
A
A
I
guess
like
20
years
ago
in
napster
and
nutella
kind
of
days,
so
I
I
have
this
a
little
bit
of
a
history
in
terms
of
seeing
new
ecosystems
develop
and
trying
to
figure
out
initially
from
an
investment
angle
and
then
as
an
entrepreneur
again
and
then
now
doing
investment
trying
to
figure
out.
What
is
how
do
you
move
from
like
a
great
technology?
I
I
have
a
lot
of
support
belief
in
the
technologies
that's
being
built
here.
A
We
spent
about
a
year
at
orchid,
also
trying
to
build
our
own
layer,
one
like
a
very
private
kind
of
decentralized
architecture,
but
realized
that
we
needed
really
powerful
small,
zero
knowledge
approvers
so
which
that
technology
wasn't
available.
So
we
just
put
everything
essentially
on
ethereum
and
also
exi,
that
the
the
kind
of
lessons
in
terms
of
how
you
build
these
layer
ones,
then
how
you
scale
them
out
into
finding
their
niche
and
finding
what
the
adoption
comes
in
has
been
something.
A
That's
now
our
fabric
and
with
supporters
of
near
we,
we
think
a
lot
about
so
with
the
layer
one
space
right
now.
A
We've
got
obviously
a
lot
of
liquidity
on
the
main
ethereum
and
also
the
evm
family
of
chains,
and
then
all
the
punks
and
the
apes
and
all
the
kind
of
the
the
world
in
the
nft
space
and
those
have
become
the
the
two
big
use
cases
that
everyone's
kind
of
coalescing
around
these,
like
large
d5
large
nft
cells,
as
we
as
we
look
at
other
applica
other
layer
ones,
we're
also
supporters
of
we're
in
polkadot.
A
We
kind
of
like
look
at
a
lot
of
different
cross-chain
architectures
there
over
time.
I
I
see
this
less
as
a
battle
about
which
layer
one
is
the
one
that
kind
of
wins
them
all.
I
think
that's
almost
like
a
mistake
of
this
maximalism
kind
of
thinking.
You
have
the
bitcoin
maximalist
and
you
have
the
ethereum
maximalist
and
like
kind
of
evm
maximalist
and
you
sort
of
like
have
this
this
family
of
behavior,
where
people
often
get
very
invested
in
something
and
then
think
through.
A
Oh,
this
is
the
only
thing
that
can
win
because
I'm
in
it-
and
I
I
think
you
have
to
abstract
out
a
bit
and
try
and
have
a
much
longer
view
of
things
when
I've
been
looking
at
at
near.
One
of
the
things
that's
been
exciting
to
me
is,
you
know
very
fast
finality
like
cheap
transactions
and
but
still
with
this
decentralized
architecture.
A
So
some
of
the
areas
we've
been
looking
at
is
bridging
of
ethereum
and
near
we're
investors
in
aurora
and
but
then
veneer
itself
on
its
own,
like
in
an
isolated
thing,
we've
also
been
looking
pretty
carefully
at
some
of
the
nft
minting
platforms
and
sort
of
the
the
idea
of
could
you
could
could
near
be
the
thing
that
goes
direct
to
real
world
use
case
without
having
to
think
about
the
blockchain
at
all?
And
that's
that's
clearly
a
very
exciting
place
for,
for
all
of
us
to
be
worried
about.
B
Yeah,
I'm
also
pretty
interested
in,
I
mean
essentially
what's
different
about
what
it
takes
to
succeed
in
this
ecosystem,
not
not
necessarily
as
a
layer
one
protocol
but
as
a
as
a
startup
with
building
right.
I
mean
you
have
some
some
ingredients
that
are
core.
B
Every
startup
needs
to
get
funded,
but
what's
what's
different
about
being
a
startup
in
web
3
that
you're,
seeing
from
from
within
the
portfolio
and
from
your
own
experiences,
obviously
you're,
maybe
more
focused
on
the
infrastructure
side,
but.
A
Yeah,
I
think
so
I
spent
about
23
years
living
in
san
francisco.
I
just
moved
here
last
year,
one
of
the
things
that
that
occurred.
There
was
both
the
funding
and
the
hiring
ecosystem
was
just
sort
of
at
your
doorstep.
You
just
you
know,
walk
down
the
street
and
you'd
hire
a
developer
and
then
walk
down
the
street
get
an
investor.
A
That's
that's
changed
now,
and
you
know
I
like
balaji's
tweets,
so
he
talks
a
lot
about
how
the
internet
is
a
new
silicon
valley,
and
so
it's
what
it
really
means
is
is
that
your
ability
to
build
community
and
connect
to
people
continuously,
not
just
through
the
fundraising
round
or
the
hiring
round,
but
just
kind
of
continuously
establish
yourself.
A
I
see
that
as
very
important
to
building
companies
to
building
startups
in
this
space,
and
you
know
where
it
was
like
a
very
kind
of
mimetic
generation
community,
we're
always
like
building
a
meme
about
this
I
mean
about
that
is.
Is
that
sort
of
what
that
means?
Is
you're
you're
trying
to
change
the
way
people
are
thinking
about
something
so
kind
of
having
that
initial
like?
Why
is
this
interesting?
A
To
me,
what
is
this
going
to
do
that
kind
of
like
generating
that
buzz
around
I
found
is,
is
very
powerful
and
quite
differentiated.
There
are
kind
of
parallels
to
the
older
models,
but,
but
I
think
that's
a
very
important
thing,
so
I
think
a
lot
of
it
is
and,
as
we
talked
before
in
london
about
and
paris
about,
the
idea
of
being
kind
of
friendly
to
other
systems,
I
think
this
there
was
a
term
with
this
maximalist
idea.
A
It
can
take
you
so
far
and
you
know
maybe,
if
you've
got
a
nba
top
shop
or
something
you
can
kind
of
succeed
on
that,
but
but
it
you
have
to
connect.
You
have
to
think
about
the
principles
I
get.
This
talk
today
about
the
the
principles
of
decentralization
decentralization
is
not
just
having
people
in
a
bunch
of
places.
It's
actually
connecting
to
other
things.
A
It's
connecting
not
just
to
other
applications
in
your
ecosystem,
but
thinking
how
do
you
connect
outside
of
that
and
and
what
what's
relevant,
you've
got
this
huge
wall
of
liquidity
sitting
in
in
the
evm
chains?
How
do
you
bring
that
over
and
we've
seen
this?
We
talked
about
aurora,
but
how
do
we?
How
do
we
think
about
nfts,
for
example?
If
maybe
it's
not,
that
we
take
apes
and
punks
and
make
near
apes
and
near
punks
and
then
hopefully
hope
for
the
best.
A
Maybe
it's
like
something
different,
maybe
it's
nfts
being
used
for
tickets,
like
we
see
here
today
or
nfts,
being
used
for
software
license
keys,
and
if
you
have
this
ability
to
do
this
on
a
much,
cheaper
and
faster
basis
and
still
decentralize,
then
you
know
we
can
start
seeing
a
different
kind
of
use
case.
So
I
don't
know,
I
don't
know
if
there's
like
significantly
different
ideas
to
how
you
scale
these
webstreet
businesses,
but
there
are
certainly
some
some
some
interesting
unique
aspects
that
are
emerging
yeah.
A
Well,
I'm
gonna,
I'm
gonna
flip
it
so
so
so,
if
you
kind
of
think
about
like
the
near
the
near
foundation,
that
they've
been
other
foundations
before
and
we've
sort
of
seen
like
the
the
pros
and
the
cons
of
of
different
ways
of
building
things
either.
On
a
I
mean,
let's
not
sorry,
shade
on
too
many
things,
but
you
kind
of
look
at
like
eos
right.
It
was
like
very
centralized
architecture
in
the
sense
very,
very
centralized.
A
It's
kind
of
like
you
know,
friends
of
the
people
who
who
knew
the
people
who
ran
the
validators
and-
and
it
was
a
really
hot
thing
for
a
minute
and
then
all
of
a
sudden,
it
just
kind
of
like
dwindled
and
I'm
not
even
sure
why
it's
even
being
traded
anymore,
sorry
eos
holders,
but
the
and
this
is
not
investment
advice,
but
the
and
then
you
see
the
the
ethereum
foundation-
and
you
know,
have
a
lot
of
love
for
like
the
kind
of
the
the
early
work,
they've
done
and
so
on.
A
B
That's
that's
totally
a
fair
question
and
I
guess
I
guess
it
really
kind
of
works
back
from
both
the
journey
towards
decentralization
and
then
again
the
first
principles
of
like.
Why
are
we
decentralizing
as
well?
So
in
terms
of
the
journey?
Obviously
you
you
have
to
start
with
a
core
team
and
a
core
idea,
and
then
at
some
point
you
you
take
off
the
rocket
boosters
and
hopefully
something
is
in
orbit
and
somewhere
along
the
way
you've
crossed
you've
crossed
the
pin
and
you've
said:
okay.
B
B
I
I
do
agree
that
we've
seen
we've
seen
effective
models
and
less
effective
models
and
the
way
that
we
we
basically
view
things
at
the
foundation
is:
how
do
we
accomplish
things
indirectly?
Our
goal?
Our
goal
is
certainly
not
to
not
to
drive
the
ecosystem.
Our
goal
is
really
to
honestly
to
make
ourselves
irrelevant
in
over
time
it's
it's
sort
of
in
in
a
lot
of
ways.
B
It's
it's
almost
like
thinking
of
like
as
a
as
almost
like
a
vc
model
where
the
foundation
is
just
kind
of
its
portfolio,
just
happens
to
be
everyone,
who's
out
who's
out
there
and
and
then,
if
your
portfolio
is
potentially
a
hundred
thousand
companies,
then
you
start,
then
you
have
to
work
forwards
and
say:
okay
or
work
backwards
and
say,
okay,
but
what
does
it
take
to
get
to
that
point
and
just
and
to
make
sure
that
those
that
those
teams
have
the
support
that
they
need
to
be
successful?
B
And
so,
and
so
that's
I
think,
where
actually
decentralization
comes
in
as
well,
which
is
that
you
know
we
often
the
conversation
around.
Why
decentralized
is
oriented
a
little
bit
more
towards
defense?
It's
you
know
things
like
regulatory
come
up
a
lot,
but
really,
actually,
I
think,
there's
something.
That's
a
little
bit
more
like
offensive
decentralization
and
that's
obviously
not
not
to
mean
offensive,
but
it's
it's.
B
It's
like
using
decentralization
as
a
tool
to
accomplish
the
goals
that
we
have
and
that's
that's,
where
the
the
only
way
that
the
foundation
can
be
successful
to
support
a
hundred
thousand
companies
is
by
making
sure
that
the
ecosystem
actually
supports
those
those
teams.
B
The
foundation
like
if
you
remove,
if
you
kick
out
the
leg
of
the
stool,
that
is
the
foundation
it,
the
stool
should
continue
to
stand,
and
not
only
that
like
it
should
it
shouldn't
even
shutter
and
that
that's
actually
the
design
goal
that
we're
going
for,
and
so
I
think,
I
think
what
we
haven't
necessarily
seen,
or
I
haven't
at
least
seen
out.
B
There
is
a
model
where
the
foundation's
goal
is
actually
to
make
itself
irrelevant,
and
that's
that's
the
way
that
we've
basically
structured
things
is
how,
over
five
years,
can
we
get
to
the
point
where
the
foundation
doesn't
even
need
to
exist
at
all
and
if
we
think
of
things
a
little
bit
more
of
of
how
are
like
how
do
you
build
a
country,
the
the
we're
really
almost
building
a
nation-state
and
the
nation
state
needs
to
be
able
like
it.
B
It
runs
on
a
free
economy,
so
so,
like
there
shouldn't,
be
some
some
marketing
team
that
that
you
know
you
go
to
for
all
the
marketing
issues
that
you
have.
There
shouldn't
be
a
single
grants
program
or
a
single
funding
opportunity
for
everyone
in
the
ecosystem,
because
the
entire
goal
should
actually
be
that
you
have.
You
have
a
free
market
where
all
of
these
things
exist
because
there
are,
there
are
great
opportunities,
because
people
on
both
sides
have
are
running
sustainable
businesses
that
make
it
great
like.
B
Obviously
we
we
want
to
encourage
it,
let's
just
say
as
a
marketing
example,
we
want
to
encourage
an
entire
ecosystem
of
of
teams
and
and
agencies,
and-
and
you
know,
large
small,
supporting
startups,
supporting
large
companies
who
are
all
integrating
up
and
down
and
then
connecting
them
with
with
these
hundred
thousand
teams
that
are
operating
in
the
ecosystem,
that's
the
goal
so
for
us
we're
just
the
starter
motor
and
then
the
starter
motor.
You
know
it's
kind
of
it
just
disengages
over
time
and
and
the
resources
should
be
given
to
the
ecosystem.
B
A
I
think
it's
some
good
thoughts
there,
the
I
mean
I'm
a
big
believer
in
decentralization
as
a
principal,
and
I
I've
probably
left
a
lot
of
money
on
the
table
as
an
investor
from
passing
on
things
I
just
don't
like
and
then
but
the
thing
that
I've
I've
noticed
is
just
over
time.
These.
These
systems
that
are
decentralized
not
only
are
more
sustainable
over
time,
but
do
attract
these
much
larger
ecosystems
of
of
supporters,
which,
in
the
end,
makes
the
whole
thing.
You
know
more
sustainable
that
kind
of
slide
real
rules.
A
Where
do
you
see
the
the
niche
veneer
like
when
you
think
of
the
things
that
are
being
built
out
today,
and
I
was,
for
example,
like
really
interested
in
some
of
the
sort
of
recent
kind
of
stripe
integrations
I've
seen
and
looking
at
you
know
my
friends
at
mimbase
and
the
kind
of
work
that's
happening,
though,
and
then
also
you
know
like
with
with
the
sort
of
the
the
different
programming
language
framework
and
kind
of
seeing
how
a
lot
of
developers
are
saying.
We
really
prefer
to
use
this
kind
of
environment.
A
How
are
you
seeing
those
things
go
together
and
say
we
think
this
is
where
it's
going
or
like
I
mean
I'm
not
asking
you
to
pick
a
winner
here,
obviously
as
an
independent,
but
if
you
think
about
it
from
a
you
know,
short
term
and
then
kind
of
like
holistically.
A
B
Well,
that's,
that's,
actually,
the
the
the
hard
the
hard
question
and
the
easy
question
of
being
basically
a
general-purpose
platform,
which
is
which
is
you
have
seen
a
lot
of
platforms,
go
out
there
and
aggressively
niche
down
and
say
you
know.
This
is
the
platform
where
defy
lives.
This
is
the
platform
where
games
live.
B
This
is
the
platform
where
you
know
consumer
web
lives
and-
and
I
think
for
us-
that's
been
very
difficult
because
it
almost
feels
it
feels
strange
building
a
general
purpose
technology
and
then
saying
well,
it's
a
general
purpose
technology
which
is
designed
to
support
pretty
much
anything
and
then
but
but
no,
no.
This
is
where
we're
going
to
start
and
it
totally
flies
in
the
face
of
conventional
wisdom.
B
Like
obviously
you
know
riches
in
the
niches
and
that
whole
philosophy-
and
you
know
it
makes
it
harder
to
message
and
one
of
the
biggest
challenges
that
we've
actually
had
is
how
do
you
even
message?
Usability
like
it's
such
a?
B
Each
of
these
spaces
now
has
a
whole
series
of
teams
that
are
devoted
specifically
to
those
spaces,
so
so,
rather
than
niching
down
on
the
protocol
level
or
on
the
ecosystem
level.
What
we
focused
on
is
is
empowering
other
teams
to
then
go
out
and
and
do
what
they
need
to
do
to
take
the
opportunity
that
they
see,
and
so
yes,
it's
it.
It's
been.
B
It's
been
a
hard
slog
to
get
there
until
now,
but
that's
that
that's
where
spinning
out
core
team
members
and
and
and
you
know
really
supporting
them
to
go
out
and
say
yeah
we're
really
passionate
about
building
financial
tools.
You
know
maybe
for
financial
inclusion,
maybe
for
trading,
maybe
for
for
for
asset
management
or
anything
else,
great
there's
space
here
and
and
there's
a
niche
for
that
too.
B
If
there
are
people
who
are
really
excited
about
about
bridging
to
ethereum
and
really
really
working
with
the
the
the
the
components
and
and
the
teams
that
have
already
built
on
ethereum
and
now
we
have
aurora
and
and
that's
that's
essentially
their
goal-
it's
like
how
do
we,
how
do
we
sort
of
work
with
the
ethereum,
the
existing
ethereum
ecosystem
and
then
in
a
way
that
that
allows
them
to
also
take
advantage
of
some
of
the
cool
stuff?
B
A
Continue
on
that
niche
conversation,
but
with
a
different
one,
so
the
area
that
that
we've
been
working
a
lot
at
orchid
is
is
what
I
kind
of
call
web3
versus
like
what
most
people
call
web3
is
just
like.
Let's
just
call
that
blockchain,
but
to
me
it's
like
decentralized
services,
so
it's
something
that
most
systems
haven't
really
applied
to.
You've
got
stuff
like
ours.
You've
got
lip
here
and
ethereum
we've
got
a
bunch
of
different
kind
of
people.
Trying
to
do
this.
Obviously
filecon
is
his
own
ecosystem.
B
I
think
I
think
one
of
the
examples
that
I'll
cite
it's,
it's
probably
not
apples
to
apples
for
what
you're
what
you're
talking
about,
but
the
the
near
crowd
app
on
near
is
so
so
quick
history
is
that
the
the
near
team
originally
near
near
got
its
name
because
of
the
book
near.ai,
because
alex
and
ilya
are
both
very
very
talented
machine
learning,
researchers
and
and
engineers,
and
so
originally
they
were,
they
were
actually
trying
to
create
the
singularity.
B
The
singularity
is
near
and
near.ai
was
the
original
company
that
was,
that
was
that
sort
of
merged
and
became
the
near
blockchain,
and
so
so
there's
still
a
lot
of
like
energy
and
momentum
in
the
ecosystem
around
the
idea
of
like
how
do
we
help
support
the
the
machine
learning
community,
and
so
one
thing
that
that
grew
out
of
out
on
top
of
the
ecosystem.
That
is
a
consumer-facing
experience.
Is
this
this
app
called
near
crowd,
which
is
a
essentially
a
mechanical
turk,
which
right
now
is
creating?
B
What
I
believe
is
the
by
multiples,
the
single
largest
machine
learning
data
set
for
image
categorization
in
the
world
through
through
basically
allowing
people
primarily
right
now.
B
I
think
I
think
the
communities
are
mostly
in
southeast
asia
and
india
through
allowing
people
to
basically
like
who
are
poor
consumers,
who
you
know
I
mean
they
didn't
know
about
this
before,
and
then
they
had
to
be
onboarded
to
it,
who
are
basically
allowing
them
to
to
do
work,
categorizing
images
and
then
and
then
get
paid
in
in
doing
that,
and
so
again,
it's
maybe
not
exactly
in
line
with
the
services
that
you're
talking
about.
But
but
this
was,
this
has
actually
been
one
of
the
most
successful
apps.
B
That's
been
built
on
near
so
far,
and
the
fact
that
it's
it
is,
it
is
a
marketplace,
that's
being
created,
it's.
I
think
I
think
it's
probably
gonna
end
up
expanding
to
support
more
use
cases
than
just
machine
learning.
But
but,
like
you
know,
that's
that's
literally
one
of
the
like
og
use
cases
built-in.
B
B
No,
no!
No,
I
I
think,
for
I
would
be
interested,
though,
in
your
perspective,
about
what
makes
you
the
most
excited
on
the
way
out
here
over
the
next
12
months
across
any
ecosystem
across
any
space
that
you
want
to
see
built,
whether
it's
startups
that
you're
curious
to
see
whether
it's
technologies,
you're
curious
to
see
or
just
impact,
that
you're
curious
to
see
coming
out
of
this
ecosystem.
A
Yeah,
that's
a
great
question.
A
I
I'm
yeah,
so
so
from
an
investment
perspective,
I've
been
looking
a
lot
at
I'm
a
bit
of
a
nfta
myself,
so
we're
looking
a
lot
at
how
that's
changing
the
art
world
and
also
how
these
new
communities
and
kind
of
a
lot
of
the
kind
of
conventional
entertainment
world
is
starting
to
move
into
that
space
and
we've
been
chatting
a
lot
to
the
studios
in
hollywood
and
sort
of
seen
that
whole
world
emerging
quite
quickly
again.
You
know
going
back
to
what
I
was
originally
saying.
A
I
I'm
very
interested
in
the
the
decentralized
of
the
internet
in
general
of
the
web.
The
internet
is
decentralized
theoretically,
but
just
kind
of
technology
like
handshake,
which
you
know
like
somewhat
some
forgotten
architecture,
decentralizing
dns
and
that's
certainly
like
a
personal
sort
of
passion
of
mine.
A
Anything
from
my
perspective
that
that
improves
privacy,
decentralization
kind
of
like
breaking
the
control
structures
of
centralized
entities
that
I'm
really
a
big
fan
of,
but
I
think
over
the
next
12
months,
we'll
see,
I
hope,
a
lot
of
movement
out
to
people
who
can
use
these
technologies
without
knowing
about
them.
You
know
you're
using
this
technology.
We
don't
even
really
know.
A
Oh
there's
a
blockchain
behind
it,
whatever
I
don't
really
care,
I'm
just
getting
this
ticket,
or
I'm
doing
this
cool
thing
that
this
thing
enables
me
to
do,
and
I'm
always
on
the
lookout
for
things
that
I
don't
necessarily
know
what
they're
going
to
be,
because
it's
things
that
you
can
do
with
these
technology
stacks
that
you
couldn't
do
previously
like
it's
just
it's
kind
of
impossible
or
really
cumbersome
to
do
it
using
a
web
2
architecture
or
another
blockchain.
So
those
are
the
things
that
I
look
for
a
lot
great.