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From YouTube: Lisa Feldman Barrett: How the Brain Creates Emotions | MIT Artificial General Intelligence (AGI)
Description
This is a guest talk part of MIT course 6.S099: Artificial General Intelligence. This class is free and open to everyone. Our goal is to take an engineering approach to exploring possible paths toward building human-level intelligence for a better world.
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A
Today,
we're
going
to
try
something
different,
we're
going
to
try
a
conversation.
We
have
Lisa
Feldman
Barrett
with
us.
She
is
a
university
distinguished
professor
of
psychology
at
Northeastern
University,
director
of
the
interdisciplinary,
affective
Science
Laboratory,
author
of
the
new
amazing
book,
how
emotions
are
made
the
secret
life
of
the
brain.
She
studies,
emotion,
human
emotion,
from
social,
psychological,
cognitive,
science
and
neuroscience
perspectives,
and
so
I
think
our
conversation
may
help
us
gain
intuition
about
how
we
instill
emotional
life
into
future
artificial
intelligence
systems.
A
As
Josh
Tenenbaum
gave
you
a
shout
out
on
Tuesday
and
said
that
if
you
want
to
understand
how
to
create
artificial
general
intelligence
systems
from
an
engineering
perspective,
we
should
study
the
human
brain.
So
with
that,
let's
have
some
fun.
Let
me
start
with
the
curveball
to
conjure
up
an
image
of
emotion.
Have
you
ever
cried
while
watching
a
movie
that
you
remember
and
what
movie
was
it.
B
Actually
here's
an
interesting
thing
when
I'm
speaking
about
when
I'm,
giving
an
academic
talk,
I
sometimes
will
talk
about
a
study
that
we
did
where
we
had.
People
watch
films
and
we
have
them
watch
the
most
evocative
clips
of
films
and
there's
several
clips
that
are
really
powerful
and
a
couple
of
them.
Every
time.
I
talk
about
them,
I'm
gonna,
try
not
to
cry
now.
Every
time
I
talk
about
them,
I'm
describing
for
the
audience
what
subjects
are
seeing?
One
of
the
clips
is
from
a
movie
called
Sophie's
Choice.
Does
anyone
know
this
film?
B
Raise
your
hand
if
you
know
this
film,
so
we
show
this
is
a
film
about
a
woman
who
is
forced
in
a
concentration
camp
to
choose
which
of
her
children
will
die
in
the
gas
chambers
and
so
I'm
already.
You
know
like
if
you
were,
if
I
had
a
heart
rate,
monitor
and
respiration
monitor,
you
would
see
them
like
it's
a
really
powerful
scene.
B
B
We
do
yeah
and
in
fact,
I
was
just
giving
a
presentation
to
the
Supreme
Judicial
Court
of
Massachusetts
on
implicit
bias
and
to
start
the
you
know
they
want
to
understand
the
neuroscience
of
implicit
bias
and
whether
or
not
they
should
be
crafting
jury
instructions.
For
juries
to
be
aware
of
implicit
bias
and
to
open
the
discussion.
I
showed
them
a
clip
from
a
film
that
was
filmed
I.
B
You
know
almost
20
years
ago,
actually
called
a
time
to
kill
a
scene
where
Matthew
McConaughey
is
this
kind
of
he's
his
closing
statements
in
a
case
where
he
is
defending
an
african-american
man
who
murdered
two
European
American
men
who
raped
his
twelve-year-old
daughter,
and
so
the
scene
is
he's
this
completely
pathetic
lawyer
until
the
end,
when
he
masters
this
fantastic
defense.
Basically
of
this
man
on
trial,
for
you
know
basically
avenging
his
daughter's
death
and
that
one
I
hadn't
seen
that
for
20
years
that
film
and
it
brought
me
to
tears.
B
A
B
Sometimes
when
they're
sad,
they
even
can
scowl.
When
they're
happy
people
smile
when
they're
angry,
they
smile
when
they're
sad,
they
don't
just
smile
when
they're
happy,
they
sometimes
smile
to
indicate
to
send
commute.
You
know
a
social
message
that
has
something
to
do
with
emotion,
and
so
the
idea
that
there's
one
Universal
facial
expression,
for
example,
for
each
emotion,
is
just
there's
no
strong
scientific
evidence
for
that
claim.
So.
A
B
Emotions
are
not
displayed,
I
would
say
right.
So
basically,
you
and
I
are
having
conversation
right
now
and
part
of
what
you
know
my
brain
is
doing.
Is
it's
guessing
make
making
educated
guesses
about
what
your
facial
movements
mean
so
right
now
you
have
a
slight
smile
on
your
face,
not
exactly
a
smirk
but,
and
so
you
know
say.
A
B
B
So
it's
taking
in
also
you
know
the
sound
of
the
person's
voice
and
the
person's
body
posture
and
the
dynamic
temporal
changes
in
all
of
those
signals
to
make
sense
of
things.
It's
not
you're,
not
really.
The
face
is
not
a
lighthouse.
It's
not
a
beacon
that
just
displays
somebody's
internal
state
in
an
obligatory
way.
B
A
B
I
wouldn't
say
that
there's
no
good
answer
from
science,
I
would
say.
Scientists
disagree,
I,
think
it's
very
clear
what
the
building
plugs
are,
but
you
know
in
one
way
or
another.
If
you
look
back
all
the
way
to
ancient
Greece,
you
can
see
that
there
are
two
kinds
of
views
of
emotion
that
have
been
battling
it
out
for
millennia.
One
is
the
idea
that
you
have
I
will
give
you
the
modern
versions
of
these
views,
but
they
really
do
have
a
very
long
history.
B
One
is
the
idea
that
you
are
born
with
circuits
in
your
brain
that
are
pre
what
you
know:
kind
of
pre-wired
for
emotion,
so
that
everybody
around
the
world
is
born
with
an
anger
circuit,
a
fear
circuit,
a
sadness
circuit,
a
happiness
circuit,
some
other
circuits
too.
You
have
them.
We
all
have
them
all.
B
Neurotypical
brains
have
them,
and
actually
other
animals
have
them
too,
and
the
idea
is
that
when
you
know
one
of
these
circuits
is
triggered,
you
have
an
emotional
response
which
is
obligatory,
so
you
have
a
very
stereotypic
your
breathing
changes
in
a
stereotypic
way.
Your
you
know,
heart
rate
changes
your
the
chemicals
in
your
body
change
in
a
particular
way.
B
You
make
a
particular
facial
expression
and
you
are
have
a
propensity
to
make
a
particular
action
like
you,
you
know,
attack
and
anger,
and
you
run
in
fear
or
you
freeze
in
fear
and
then
there's
another
view
which
says
well.
There
are
some
basic
kind
of
ingredients
or
building
blocks
that
the
human
mind
or
the
human
brain.
Now
people
talk
about
the
brain.
Now
there
are
some
basic
ingredients
that
your
brain
uses
and
it
uses
them
to
make
every
kind
of
mental
event
that
you
experience
and
every
action
that
you
take.
B
The
recipes
are,
what
are
unique.
The
ingredients
are
common
right,
just
like
you
can
take
flour
and
water
and
salt,
and
you
can
make
a
whole
bunch
of
different
recipes
with
them,
some
of
which
aren't
even
food
like
glue
in
a
similar
way.
The
idea
is
that
your
brain
has
some
kind
of
all-purpose
capacities,
and
it
can
it
puts
these
ingredients
together
and
it
makes
emotion
as
you
need
them
on
the
spot,
and
you
don't
have
one
anger.
You
have
a
whole
repertoire
of
anger.
B
You
don't
have
one
sadness,
you
have
a
whole
repertoire
of
sadness
and
if
you
grow
up
in
a
culture
that
has
no
concept
for
sadness,
you
don't
experience
sadness
and
you
don't
perceive
sadness
because
your
brain
becomes
wired
to
make
whatever
mental
events
that
are
exist
in
your
particular
culture.
So.
A
B
Usually
think
that's
the
wrong
question
to
ask,
because
no
I
mean
I.
Think
I.
Think
people
constantly
ask
that
question,
but
I
don't
think
it's
the
right
question
to
ask,
because
you
know
some
cultures
in
our
on
our
planet.
Don't
even
have
a
concept
for
emotion
and
people
don't
while
they
experience
what
I'm
going
to
refer
to
as
in
scientific
terms,
we
call
effect,
which
is
our
simple
feelings
of
feeling,
pleasant
or
unpleasant
or
feeling
worked
up
or
calm
or
comfortable
or
discs,
or
you
know
having
discomfort.
B
These
are
feelings
that
come
directly
from
the
internal
state
of
the
physical
systems
in
your
body.
Not
everybody
makes
emotions
out
of
those
feelings
and
in
fact
we
often
don't
make
emotions
out
of
this
way.
So
those
feelings
the
way
to
think
about
it
is
that
your
brain
comes
wired
to
regulate
your
body,
actually
sort
of
take
that
back
you,
your
brain,
comes
wired.
When
you're
born
your
brain
comes
wired
with
the
potential
to
regulate
your
body,
infants
actually
don't
regulate
their
own
nervous
systems
very
well.
They
can't
put
themselves
to
sleep.
B
They
can't
calm
themselves
down,
they
can't
regulate
their
own
temperature,
that's
what
they
need,
caregivers
for
and
as
caregivers
regulate
the
nervous
systems
of
their
infants
that
wires
the
infant's
brain
right.
So
infant
little
infant
brains
aren't
born
like
little
miniature
adult
brains,
they're
born
at
waiting
for
a
set
of
wiring
instructions
from
the
world
and
they
wire
themselves
to
the
physical
and
social
realities
that
they
grow
in
and
as
they
learn
to
do
this,
they
experience
these
simple
feelings
that
you
know
a
feeling,
Pleasant
or
unpleasant
feeling
worked
up
or
feeling
calm.
B
These
are
kind
of
like
barometer
readings
in
a
way
they're
very
simple,
and
they
lack
a
lot
of
detail
because
of
how
we're
wired-
and
we
have
to
make
sense
of
them
and
the
way
that
a
culture
makes
sense
of
them
is
not
always
about
emotion.
So
I
would
say
you
know
in
our
culture
when
we
lose
something
significant
like
a
loved
one.
We
feel
sad
into
heat
intuition
people
feel
sick.
They
they
have
an
illness,
it's
not
sadness.
B
B
It's
not
just
a
matter
of
changing
the
label
of
something
it's
actually.
The
formation
of
the
experience
is
very
different.
So
if
you
want
to
build
an
intelligent
agent,
I,
don't
think
emotion
is
what
you
need
to
endow
it
with.
You
need
to
endow
it
with
these
basic
ingredients
that
it
can
use
to
make
whatever
experiences
or
guide
whatever
actions
make
whatever
States
or
guide.
Whatever
actions
are
relevant
to
the
situations
that
it's
in,
that
will
be
different
if
it's
an
American
or
a
British
or
a
Western
urbanized
environment
than
say.
A
B
So
I
mean
I.
Think
the
first
thing
to
understand
is
that
when
we
think
about
building
an
intelligent
agent,
we
think
about
endowing
the
agent
with
cognition
or
with
emotion
or
with
the
ability
to
COO
you
to
perceive
things
in
the
world
because
as
humans,
that
those
are
these
are
the
things
that
are
really
important
to
us,
especially
in
our
culture,
thinking
feeling
seeing
and
other
cultures.
You
know
they
have
different
ways
of
parsing
things,
but
the
truth
is
that
your
brain
did
not
evolve
so
that
you
could
think
and
feel
and
see
it.
B
Evolved
brains
evolved
to
control
bodies,
brains
evolved
so
that
they
could
control
the
various
systems
of
the
body
as
creatures
move
around
in
order
to
gain
resources
like
food
and
water,
and
a
brain
has
to
figure
out
how
much
resources
to
expend
on
getting
additional
resources.
Now
that
may
sound
really
trivial,
but
it
turns
out
it's
actually
really
hard
and
scientists
actually
haven't
really
figured
out
completely.
How
brains
do
this
I
mean?
What's
really
interesting
to
me.
B
B
Yeah
the
peer
perception
problem,
however,
if
you
want
to
create
an
agent
that
just
reaches
out
smoothly
grabs
a
glass
and
brings
it
into
the
body
to
drink,
that
problem
is
not
solved.
Something
is
simple
as
movement
which
we
think
of
as
this
really
basic
thing
like.
Oh,
it's
so
trivial
all
animals
can
do.
B
That's
a
reference
to
the
Trion
brain
which
a
lot
of
people
believe
it's
a
way
of
thinking
about
brain
evolution.
Instead,
what
we,
what
seems
to
be
the
case,
is
that
as
bodies
got
larger
and
there
were
more
systems
because
the
nish
of
the
animal,
the
environment,
the
animal
got
bigger
and
bigger
and
bigger
brains
also
had
to
get
bigger,
but
they
had
to
get
bigger
to
a
point
with
some
constraints
like
they
have
to
be.
You
have
to
keep
metabolic
costs
down.
It's
really
important.
B
If
you
don't,
you
know,
creatures
get
sick
and
die,
and
we
can
talk
about
what
that
means
in
terms
of
depression
or
metabolic
illnesses
or
what-have-you.
But
so
what
are
the
basic
ingredients?
Well,
one
of
the
basic
ingredients
is
that
your
brain
is
controlling
your
body
all
the
time,
whether
you
feel
it
or
not,
whether
you're
thinking
about
it
or
not,
whether
you're,
asleep
or
awake.
B
You
don't
feel
your
heart
beating
most
of
the
time,
you
don't
feel
your
lungs
expanding
most
of
the
time
and
there's
a
really
good
reason
why
we
are
all
wired
not
to
feel
those
things,
and
that
is
you'd
never
pay
attention
to
anything
outside
in
the
world
ever
again.
If
you
could
feel
every
little
movement
that
was
going
on
inside
your
body,
so
your
brain
represents
those
as
a
summary,
these
kind
of
simple
summary
feelings.
You
feel
good,
you
feel
bad.
B
B
Those
very
strong
changes
which
you
will
feel
as
really
feeling
unpleasant
or
really
feeling
Pleasant,
but
your
brain
might
also
make
hunger
or
your
brain
might
make
an
instance
of
a
physical
sensation
like
nausea
or
your
brain
might
even
make
a
perception
of
the
world
like
that's
a
nice
guy.
That
guy
is
an
this
is
a
really
delicious
drink.
That's
a
beautiful
painting!
Those
are
also
moments
where
these
simple
feelings,
which
we
call
effect,
are
very
strong,
so
effect
is
a
basic
ingredient.
B
There
are
others
that
I
could
talk
about
too.
It's
not
the
only
one,
but
one
of
the
things
I
think
that
that
sometimes
people
who
are
studying
to
build
AI
systems
don't
realize
is
that
the
brain,
its
fundamental
job
is
to
keep
your
body
alive
and
well,
and
if
you
don't
have
some
kind
of
body
to
regulate
with
effective
feelings
that
come
from
that
regulation
or
something
like
that,
it's
you're
kind
of
gonna
be
out
of
luck,
I,
think
in
rendering
something
that
looks
more,
something
that
seems
more
human
right.
A
So
maybe
you
can
elaborate
like
in
the
book
sapiens
that
we
as
human
beings
are
really
good
on
mass
as
a
thousands
millions
of
people
together
believing
something
even
if
it's
not
true
so,
while
scientifically
sort
of
from
a
neuroscience
perspective.
It
may
be
very
true
that
emotions
aren't
real
I,
didn't.
A
Yeah,
so
what
I'm
trying
to
say
is
also
from
AI
perspective.
Is
they
become
these
trivial
ideas
of
mapping,
a
smile
to
being
happy,
and
these
kind
of
trivial
ideas
become
real
to
us
through
Hollywood
through
cultural
spreading
of
information,
and
we
start
to
believe
this
and
therefore
it
becomes
real
innocent
in
in
in
as
much
as
anything
is
real
about
our
cult,
our
perception
together.
So
it's
really
important
scientifically
the
ideas
that
you're
presenting,
but
does
that
mean
there's
just
because
our
brain
doesn't
feel
those
explicit
emotions?
Does
I
mean
they're,
not
real
I.
B
Didn't
say
we
don't
feel
explicit
emotions,
so
I
want
to
be
really
clear
about
this,
because
it's
an
interesting
this.
You
know
this
sum
this
inference.
It's
an
interesting
inference
that
people
often
make,
and
so,
but
it's
it's
a
mistake
and
it's
a
mistake
that
betrays
a
certain
kind
of
thinking
that
we
do
in
this
culture
and
is
it's
the
mistake
of
the
following
sort?
So
when
I
say
there
is
no
facial
expression
that
is
diagnostic
of
a
single
emotion
that
doesn't
mean
that
people
don't
express
emotion,
they
certainly
do
express
emotion.
They
just
don't.
B
You
know
when,
when
they're
in
a
state
of
anger
in
a
state
of
sadness
or
in
a
state
of
awe
their
faces,
don't
do
one
thing
when
I
say
well:
your
body
can
do
many
things
when
you're
angry
or
when
you're,
sad
or
but
let's
take
anger,
your
heart
rate
can
go
up,
it
can
go
down,
it
can
stay
the
same,
your
breathing
rate
can
go
up,
it
can
go
down.
It
can
stay
the
same,
the
same
pattern
that
you
see
in
anger.
You
sometimes
see
in
sadness,
and
you
sometimes
see
in
fear.
B
You
sometimes
even
see
it
in
enthusiasm
and
in
awe.
So
does
that
mean
that
emotions
aren't
real?
No
emotions
are
real,
but
but
sometimes
things
are
real,
because
the
physical
meaning
of
the
signal
is
endowed
in
the
signal.
Okay.
So
when
your
retina
communicates
to
your
brain
that
you
have
that
you
are
faced
with
a
wavelength
of
that,
you
know
is
600.
You
know
600
nanometers.
B
The
signal
is
endowed
in
your
brain.
That's
like
in
the
signal
it's
not
like
interpret.
You
don't
interpret
that
it's
600,
you
know
nanometers.
It
is
600
nanometers
the
informations
in
the
signal,
but
when
you
see
read
that
information
is
not
in
the
signal,
your
brain
has
added
information
that
isn't
in
the
signal
itself.
In
a
sense,
your
brain
has
imposed,
meaning
on
a
signal
that
the
signal
doesn't
have
on
its
own
they'll.
Let
me
back
up
and
give
a
different
example
to
make
it
a
little
easier
and
then
will
reproach
this
there's
a.
B
The
minute
that
some
of
us
disagree
that
we
risk
we
withdraw
our
consent
right.
The
things
lose
their
value,
that's
what
happened
in
the
mortgage
crisis.
That's
what
happened
in
the
tulip
crisis
in
the
you
know
the
Netherlands
in
the
17th
century
or
16th
century
when
it
was
money
currency
this,
because
we
impose
meaning
on
objects
in
the
world.
Physical
objects
in
the
world
that
themselves
don't
have
that
meaning
on
their
own
and
they
are
very
real.
Money-
is
very
real
to
people.
B
I
can
stick
somebody's
head
in
a
brain
scanner
and
show
you
that
they
experience
value
in
a
very
real
way,
but
that
that
reality
is
constructed
by
the
fact
that
they
have
learned
the
value
in
a
particular
culture.
Well,
that's
also
what
we
do
with
emotion.
We
impose
meaning
on
certain
physical
signals
that
they
don't
have
by
on
their
own,
and
but
we
have
collective
intentionality.
We
all
agree
that
scowling
is
sometimes
anger,
and
so
it
becomes
anger
in
a
very
real
way.
Just
like
little
pieces
of
paper
become
money,
so.
A
B
You
could
think
of
it
that
way.
I
mean
everything.
Everything
in
our
culture
is
almost
everything.
Agriculture
is
a
function
of
social
reality.
In
this
way
we
are
citizens
of
a
country,
because
we
all
agree
that
the
country
exists
more
or
less
and
wow.
You
guys
barely
even
laughed
at
that.
Okay,
what's
a
revolution,
a
revolution
is
when
some
people
in
the
country
withdraw
their
consent.
They
no
longer
agree
right.
B
A
president
has
powers
in
a
country,
because
we
all
agree
that
a
president
has
powers
present
only
as
powers
by
virtue
the
fact
that
we
all
agree
that
he
or
she
has
powers.
If
we
stop
agreeing
the
president
doesn't
have
those
powers
anymore,
it's
very
real
people's
lives
depend
outcomes
of
real
people
depend
on
these
social
realities
that
we
build
and
nurture,
and
we.
B
Why
are
these
social
realities
into
the
brains
of
our
children
as
we
socialize
them,
and
when
people
move
from
one
culture
to
another,
they
have
to
learn
the
new
social
reality
that
they
are
faced
with
and
if
they
don't,
they
get
very
sick
physically,
because
our
ability
to
agree
on
what
something
means
actually
is
important
for
regulating
our
nervous
systems.
So.
A
Can
you
speak
to
that
a
little
bit
I
mean
for
machine
learning
methods
for
systems
that
learn
to
behave
based
on
a
certain
reward,
it's
important
to
kind
of
have
some
ground
truth
and
and
learn.
So
how
do
it
sounds
like
the
expression
of
emotion
is
learned?
Can
you
talk
about
how
we
learn
to
fit
into
our
culture
by
expressing
emotion
with
our
phase
body,
given
the
context
given
the
rich?
What's
that
process
look
like
when
does
it
happen?
B
B
So
so
how
does
it?
How
does
an
infant
learn,
anything
so
an
infant's
born,
and
it
can't
do
anything
for
itself.
It
can't
regulate
its
own
nervous
system.
It
can't
keep
its
body
systems
balanced.
This
is
a
term
scientific
term,
for
this
is
alice.
Stasis
alice
stasis
is
your
brain's
ability
to
predict
what
your
body
is
going
to
need
before
it
needs
it
and
tries
to
meet
those
needs
before
they
arise,
so
an
example
would
be
if
you're
gonna
stand
up.
B
If
your
brain
is
gonna,
stand
you
up,
it
has
to
raise
your
blood
pressure
before
it
stands
you
up.
If
it
doesn't,
you'll
fall,
that's
costly
from
metabolic
standpoint.
It's
costly,
you'll
hurt
yourself.
So
an
infant's
brain
can't
do
this
very
well.
An
infant
doesn't
know
when
to
go
to
sleep
and
when
to
wake
up
an
infant
doesn't
can't
feed
itself
can't
regulate
its
own
temperature.
Someone
else
has
to
do
it
and
when
someone
does
it,
the
infant
is
learning.
B
So
right
from
the
get-go,
an
infant
is
learning
statistical
learning.
You
know
the
capturing
events,
including
their
consequence
for
the
infant's
body.
Some
people
think
babies
are
born.
You
know
attached
already
to
their
caregivers,
but
they're,
not
actually
infants,
don't
even
know
what
a
caregiver
is.
It's
just
that
the
caregiver
is
there
constantly
meeting
that
infant's
needs.
That's
how
infants
start
to
learn.
B
Now,
if
there
are
statistical
regularities
like,
for
example,
an
infant
is
not
born
with
the
ability
to
recognize
a
face
as
a
face,
but
it
learns
that
in
like
the
first
couple
of
days
of
life,
why?
Because
human
faces
have
some
statistical
regularities
to
them
right
to
eyes
and
nose
and
a
mouth
kind
of
in
the
same
place
most
of
the
time,
so
it
learns
really
quickly.
B
But
here's
the
interesting
thing
around
three
months
of
age
infants
start
to
learn
what
we
call
abstract
categories.
They
start
to
learn
that
some
things
which
don't
look
the
same
or
sound
the
same
or
smell
the
same
actually
have
the
same
function
and
how
do
they
learn
this?
They
learn
it
with
words.
So
if
you
do
an
experiment
with
a
three
month
old,
three
months
old,
okay
and
you
say
to
that
baby-
very,
very
intentionally,
look
sweetie!
A
B
B
Similarly,
you
can
take,
you
know,
six
objects
that
are
exactly
identical
in
their
physical
features,
how
they
sound,
how
they
smell
what
they
feel
like
what
they
look
like,
and
you
can
name
three
of
them
with
one
word
and
three
of
them
with
the
other
word,
and
the
infant
will
understand
that
these
are
actually
different
objects.
That
happens
a
little
after
you
know
not
not
as
early
as
three
months.
But
the
point
is
that
when
we
talk
all
the
time
we
use
words
all
the
time.
B
What
do
we
do
with
infants
we're
constantly
pointing
things
out
and
labeling
them?
This
is
a
dog.
This
is
a
cat,
you're
angry,
this
person's
sad
Oh,
mummys
really
happy
today,
oh,
you
know,
mommy
loves
you,
Oh
daddy's,
really
excited
about
this,
and
so
on
and
so
forth
and
infants
learn
really
really
quickly.
Words
are
considered
to
be
kind
of
invitations
to
form
abstract
concepts.
That
is
the
basis
of
almost
all
of
the.
B
It's
the
basis
of
a
lot
of
the
sort
of
functional
categories
that
we
use
in
everyday
life:
we're
impose
meaning
on
sensory
on
sensory
arrays
that
those
sensory
arrays
in
and
of
themselves,
don't
necessarily
have
they
only
have
that
meaning
because
you
and
I
both
learn
that
that
package
of
sensory
array
means
something.
So,
when
I
make
that
you
can
anticipate
what
will
happen
next,
just
because
we've
learned
those
are
they're
wired
into
our
brains.
You
know
in
our
culture
and
when
we
go
to
a
different
culture,
we
have
to
learn
sometimes
different
packages.
Yeah.
B
B
Anna
NASA
makes
sense
of
what's
going
on
around
in
the
world,
so
that
knows
what
to
do
to
keep
itself
alive
right
and
well,
but
it
has
to
it
has
to
know
what
to
do
based
on
it
has
to
know
what
what's
happening
all
around
it,
only
from
the
effects
that
it
receives
through
the
sensory
systems
of
the
body.
So
a
flash
of
light.
What's
a
flash
of
light,
it
could
be
anything
what
you
know.
What's
a
look
like
a
siren,
a
siren
could
be
you
know
a
firetruck
or
it
could
be.
B
Somebody's
car
alarm
went
off
or
it
could
be
a
doorbell
or
it
could
be
right.
Any
particular
sensory
cue
could
have
multiple
causes,
so
your
brains,
trapped,
basically
in
your
skull
and
all
it
gets,
are
the
effects,
the
sensory
effects
of
stuff
that
happens
in
the
world,
but
it
has
to
figure
out
what
those
things
are
so
that
it
knows
what
to
do.
So.
How
does
it
do
that?
Well,
it
has
something
else
that
it
can
draw
on.
It
has
your
past
experiences.
Your
brain
basically
is
doesn't
store
experiences
from
the
past.
B
It
can
reconstitute
them
in
its
wiring
and
that's
what
it
uses
to
guess
at
what
those
sensory
cues
me
of
those
sensory
changes
me.
So
in
one
situation
a
siren
means
one
thing
in
another
situation:
it
means
another.
A
flash
of
light
means
one
thing
in
one
situation
and
a
different
thing
in
another,
so
your
brain
is
using
past
experience
to
make
guesses
about
what
these
sensory
changes
me
and
so
that
it
knows
what
to
do,
and
it
has
the
same
relationship
to
the
sensory
changes
in
your
body.
What's
an
ache
in
your
stomach.
B
There
are
many
aches
in
your
stomach.
Any
different
feelings
of
achiness
for
nausea
and
many
different
feelings
of
aching
is
for
hunger,
and
sometimes
they
overlap.
So
your
brain
has
to
make
the
same
kinds
of
guesses
about
what's
going
on
in
your
body
as
it
does
about
what
the
sensory
events
mean
in
the
world,
and
that's
really
what
it's
doing.
It's
it's
guessing
and
making
sense
of
the
sensory
array
so
that
it
knows
what
to
do
next
and
when
it
guesses
wrong.
B
It
takes
in
that
the
you
know
the
the
sort
of
information
that
it
didn't
predict
well,
which
you
know
in
psychology.
We
have
a
really
fancy
name
for
that.
We
call
it
learning
your
brain
takes
in
the
information
that
it
didn't
predict
and
so
that
it
can
predict
better
than
the
next
time
to
make
sense
of
things.
The
next
time.
B
A
You
kind
of
answered
this
a
little
bit
I'd
like
to
elaborate
on
it.
If
you
were
to
build
a
robot
that
performs
maybe
passes
the
Turing
test
or
performs
at
the
low
bar
level
of
instead
of
myself
here
today,
it
would
be
a
robot
talking
to
you,
it'd
be
convincing
as
a
human.
How
would
you
what
kind
of
how
would
you
build
that
system
in
a
sense
in
paralleling
the
infant's?
What
essential
aspect
of
the
infant
experience
do,
you
think
is
important.
It.
B
A
B
A
A
B
A
B
Dopamine
is
actually
not
reward.
Dopamine
is
effort.
Dopamine
is
necessary
for
effort,
it's
not
necessary
for
reward,
maybe
it's
commonly.
If
you
read
the
most
caught
those
up
to
date,
literature
that
is
what
you'll
see
that
it's
actually
people
can
animals
can
find
things
rewarding
can
be
without
without
dopamine
actually,
but
they
they
they
need
to
open
to
move.
They
need
dopamine
to
encode
fits
and
to
learn
information.
B
So
it's
really
for
effort
that
is
required
to
work
towards
getting
a
reward,
I
would
say,
and
when
the,
when
a
brain,
an
animal
brain,
a
human,
any
kind
of
animal
brain
miss
predicts
what
the
reward
will
be.
That's
what
you
see
a
real
surge
of
dopamine,
because
it
the
animal,
has
to
adjust
its
action,
but
reward
is
basically
bringing
the
body
back
into
a
low
stasis.
It
feels
good
when
that
happens,
and
people
will
and
animals
will
work
tremendously
hard
to
have
that
happen.
So
you
know
what
is
motivation.
B
B
Even
you
know,
single-cell
organisms
actually
there's
an
analogy
to
what
we're
talking
about
here
to
brains,
but
you
know
salt,
water,
glucose.
All
these
systems
have
to
be
kept
in
balance
and
they
have
to
be
kept
in
balance
in
a
very,
very
efficient
way,
and
that's
the
motivating
so-called
motivating
force.
Really
that's
what
that's,
what
that's,
what
really
brains
are
for
so
yeah,
and
that
is
the
basis
the
consequence
of
that
regulation.
It
are
the
basis
of
you,
know,
effective
feelings
which
are
for
many
many
creatures
on
this
planet,
a
property
of
consciousness.
B
B
A
Would
elaborate,
I,
think
I,
think
yeah
I
think
you're
answering
that
love
in
the
way
we're
defining
it
loosely
in
poetry
and
culture
as
a
social
construct
and
its
relative?
What
I
mean
is
sort
of
the
idea
of
monogamous
law,
a
long-term
love
that
we
have
deep
connection
with
other
human
beings
that
we
have
you're
saying
you
could
do
the
same
with
a
car
like
a
nice
69
Mustang
are.
B
Here's
the
thing
we
we
are
social
animals.
Okay,
what
does
that
mean?
What
does
it
mean
to
be
a
social
animal?
It
means
that
we
regulate
each
other's
nervous
systems.
So
our
brain,
my
brain,
isn't
just
regulating
my
nervous
system
right
now.
It's
regulating
yours
and
actually
it's
regulating
other
other
people's
in
the
audience
too,
and
vice
versa.
And
why
is
that?
You
know
I
mean
other
animals.
Do
it
too
we're
just
looking
really
good
at
it,
but
other
animals
like
there
are
some
insects
that
are
social
species.
B
They
regulate
each
other's
nervous
systems,
they
do
it
with
chemicals,
they
do
it
with
smell,
primarily
and
a
little
bit
with
touch
like
earwigs.
Well,
you
know
like
they
can
actually
I.
Have
this
great
picture
of
there's
like
totally
disgusting,
looking
little
bug,
but
it's
like
you
know,
cuddling,
it's
a
little
baby,
ugly,
little
ugly,
baby
bug
it's
adorable
picture,
but
you
know
what
about
mammals
like
rats?
Well,
they
also
use
chemicals
like
smell,
but
they
also
use
touch
and,
to
some
extent
they
also
use
sound.
B
These
hearing
primates,
add
vision
and
as
primates
we
do
all
weaves
all
of
those
senses
to
regulate
each
other,
and
we
also
use
something
else.
Words
right
exactly
and
words
the
systems
in
our
brains
that
allow
us
to
speak
and
allow
us
to
understand.
Words
are
directly
connected
to
the
parts
of
the
brainstem
that
control
the
body.
B
I
don't
mean
like
they're,
a
bunch
of
I
mean
monitor,
I
mean
monosynaptic,
we
connected
so
exactly
the
same
systems
in
your
brain
that
are
important
for
you
to
be
able
to
understand
language
and
to
speak,
are
also
directly
directly
affecting
the
systems
of
your
body,
and
that
is
why
I
can
say
something
to
somebody.
I
can
speak
to
you
and
I
can
have
an
impact
on
the
nervous
systems
of
people
all
the
way
at
the
back
of
this
auditorium.
Without
they
you
know,
maybe
they
can
see
me.
Maybe
they
can't.
Maybe
they
can't.
B
Hopefully
they
can't
smell
me.
Maybe
they
can
hear
me,
maybe
they
you
know,
but
they
can.
If
they
hear
me
speak
words,
I
can
affect
their
nervous
systems.
That's
why
a
telephone
works.
That's
why
the
telephone
works
to
where
you
can
feel
connected
to
someone
just
merely
by
hearing
their
voice,
because
the
sound
of
their
voice
has
an
effect
on
your
nervous
system.
B
It
can,
it
can
make
you
breathe
faster,
it
can
make
you
breathe
slower
and
the
words
also
have
an
effect,
because
when
I
say
a
word
like
I,
don't
know
when
I
say
word
like
car,
that's
a
short
form.
I
have
a
bunch
of
mental
features.
In
my
mind
when
I
say
the
word
car
and
I
say
that
word
and
that
invokes
those
similar
mental
features,
maybe
not
identical
but
similar
enough.
That
invokes
it
in
your
mind
and
your
mind
is
made
by
your
brain.
So
it
invokes
if
I
just
say
the
word
car.
B
There
are
changes
in
your
motor
system.
That
would
be
exactly
the
same
or
very
close
as
if
you
were
actually
in
a
car
right.
So
this
is
something
that
we
do
and
the
fact
we're
attachment
comes
from
an
infant
to
a
caregiver
or
or
to
lovers
or
to
really
close
friends
comes
from
the
ability
that
we
have
to
regulate
each
other's
nervous
systems,
and
that
is
why,
when
you
don't
have
that
kind
of
attachment,
you
die
sooner.
On
average,
seven
years
sooner,
loneliness
kills.
B
I
always
tell
my
daughter,
my
daughter's
19
years
old
I
always
tell
her.
You
know
breaking
up
when
you
break
up
with
someone
it
feels
like
it
will,
kill
you,
but
it
won't.
Loneliness,
however,
will
kill
you.
It
will
kill
you
on
average,
seven
years
earlier
than
it
would.
If
you
didn't,
have
an
attachment
and
that's
because
our
nervous
systems,
you
know,
as
our
bodies
got
really
complex
through
evolution
and
our
brains
got
bigger,
they
could
only
get
so
big.
B
There
are
constraints
on
how
big
any
brain
can
get
that
have
to
do
with.
You
know
birthing
the
infant,
but
it
also
has
to
do
with
the
metabolic
cost
of
a
brain.
Your
brain
is
really
expensive.
My
brain
really
expensive
three
pounds.
20
percent
of
your
metabolic
budget.
That's
a
lot,
and
so
what
did
evolution
do
to
solve
this
problem?
B
When
someone
when
you're
feeling
horrible
and
somebody
Pat's
you
on
the
back
or
says
nice
words
to
you
or
gives
you
a
hug,
they
are
physically
having
an
effect
on
your
body
that
they
are
helping
your
body
to
maintain
a
low
stasis
at
a
time
when
your
brain
probably
couldn't
manage
it
on
its
own,
and
so
the
basis
of
love
or
attachment
is
basically
that
it's
the
ability
to
affect
each
other's
nervous
systems
in
a
positive
way,
I
always
say
to
people.
You
know
the
best
thing
for
a
nervous
system.
B
A
B
C
So
I
was
thinking
about
what
you're
saying
about
reward
and
I'm
wondering
first
of
all,
is
he
described
as
a
return
to
a
lo?
Stasis
is
reward
in
any
way
linked
to
the
and
just
like
the
reinforcement
of
pathways
or
behavior
so
that
the
next
time
you
get
that
stimulus.
You
will
you'll
respond
in
the
same
way
and
I'm
also
wondering
about
the
link
between
the
desire
for
aloe
stasis
and
the
need
for
novelty,
and
then
he
did
like
a.
B
B
So,
first
of
all
the
we
can
think
about
the
need
for
novelty
in
a
really
proximal
way.
We
can
think
about
it
in
a
really
distal
way
like,
but
basically
when
I
say
that
a
brain
is
organized
or
engineered
for
metabolic
efficiency,
that
doesn't
mean
that
the
goal
is
to
to
only
ever
have
your
prediction.
B
You
know
your
brains
predicting
all
the
time
to
always
have
its
predictions
completely
perfect,
so
you'll
never
learn
nothing
because
you'll
be
bored
out
of
your
mind
right
and
also
you
know
humans
like
to
and
their
niche
they
like
to
explore.
So
it's
a
constant
balance
between
what
biologists
would
call
exploitation
and
exploration
novelty
is.
Is
it's
exciting?
It
there's
actually
an
increase
in
norepinephrine,
an
increase
in
arousal.
It
feels
really
exciting,
but
it's
also
super
costly
novelty
requires
usually
that
you
learn
something
new.
B
That
means
that's
actually
really
metabolically
expensive
thing
to
do,
and
it
also
means
usually
that
you're
moving
your
body
around,
which
is
also
metabolically
expensive
thing
to
do
so.
The
need
for
novelty
is
balanced
by
its
cost
and
different
nervous
systems
can
bear
different
amounts
of
cost.
So,
for
example,
if
you
take
two
rats
that
are
somewhat
genetically,
you
know
moderate,
like
they've,
been
genetically
bred.
B
One
is
bred
when
you
stick
it
in
a
a
novel
cage,
it
just
sits
still
and
the
other
one
when
you
put
it
a
novel
cage
it
like
roams
all
over
the
place,
and
it's
just
you
know
it's
going
crazy
kind
of
exploring
everything.
Well,
the
one
that
sits
still
scientists
might
say:
oh
that's,
a
nervous
rat
or
that
rats
afraid
what
is
that
rat
doing
the
rat
is
not
moving
and
it's
not
encoding
anything
because
encoding,
something
is
expense.
It's
expensive.
B
This
rat,
on
the
other
hand,
is
roaming
all
over
the
place.
Moving
a
lot
learning
a
lot,
so
it's
encoding,
a
lot
spend,
spend,
spend
save,
save
save,
spend,
spend,
spend
there
are
time
there
are
differences
between
people
and
there
are
also
differences
between
times
in
your
life.
Where
moments
where
you
feel
like
you
have
a
little
bit
to
spend
and
other
moments
where
you
feel
like
you
really
have
to
conserve
when
I
talk
to
the
public
I,
always
talk
about
I,
don't
use
the
word
out
of
stasis.
B
It's
just
too
boring
a
word,
but
I
sort
of
do
is
sort
of
explain
it.
Like
a
budget,
you
know
like
your
brain,
is
sort
of
like
the
financial
office
of
a
company.
A
company
has
lots
of
offices,
it
has
to
balance
the
expenditures
and
revenues
and
it's
got
to
keep
everything
in
balance.
So
it
might
take
a
little
money
here,
move
without
office.
You
know
it's
got
to
keep
everything
in
balance.
We're
just
always
trying
to
do
is
spend
a
little
bit
to
make
a
little
bit
more.
B
What
happens
when
it
spends
a
little
bit
and
it
doesn't
get
a
revenue
back.
There's
no
reward
what
happens
well,
it
goes
into
the
read
a
little
bit.
So
what
do
you
do
when
something
goes
into
the
read?
Well,
you
might
do
something
risky.
You
might
actually
spend
a
lot
to
try
to
really
may
you
know
not
just
make
back
your
deficit,
but
actually
make
a
lot.
That
would
be
novelty
that
would
be
move
and
spent
moving
and
encode
or
you
might
reduce
your
spending.
B
B
So
I
certainly
don't
mean
to
suggest
to
you
that
that
novelty
is
unimportant
or
that
learning
is
unimportant
and
it's
a
really
important
question
about
what
is
there
any
intrinsic
value
to
novelty
over
and
above
the
rewards
that
it
would
give
you
an
analysis
at
ik
sense,
but
it
is
really
clear
to
me
that
the
extent
to
which
you
any
nervous
system
will
embrace
novelty
and
even
seek
it.
Pretty
much
depends
on
the
allostatic
state
of
that
of
that
system.
B
If
you
don't
have
a
lot
to
spend
and
you're
already
in
the
red
you
if
you
at
a
certain
point,
if
you
continue
to
spend
when
you're
in
the
red
you
go
bankrupt,
what
that
means
in
human
terms,
is
you
get
depressed?
It
means
that
your
your
brain
makes
you
fatigued,
so
you
can't
move
and
it
makes
you
locks
you
in.
So
you
stop
paying
attention
to
anything
going
on
around
you
in
the
world,
and
your
experience
is
just
what's
in
your
head,
that
that's
actually
what
depression
is.
B
F
B
I
want
to
be
careful
about
saying
that,
because
for
two
reasons,
one
because
in
biology
there
is
this
concept
of
degeneracy,
just
a
sucky
word,
but
it's
a
great
concept
and
it
means
that
there's
more
than
one
way
to
skin
a
cat.
Basically,
you
want
a
functional
outcome.
There
are
many
ways
to
get
to
that
functional
outcome
so
genes,
for
example,
you
know
there
are
a
lot
of
characteristics
that
are
heritable,
but
we
don't
know
the
genes
for
them
and
the
reason
why
is
that
there
isn't
one
set
of
genes?
B
There
are
like
multiple
sets
of
genes
that
can
give
you
actually
the
same
outcome.
So
what
I
want
to
say
is
that
you
need
something
akin
to
a
body.
It
doesn't
actually
have
to
be
a
body
I.
Imagine
there
are
lots
of
ways
that
you
could
implement
a
system.
You
could
implement
an
agent
that
has
multiple
systems
of
some
sort
that
it
has
to
manage.
But
my
point
is
that
one
thing
about
that
is
very
important
that
we
continually
miss
when
we
think
about
building
an
agent
with
mental
states.
B
B
If
you
just
look
at
the
wiring
of
the
brain,
if
you
just
see
it
so
it
seems
to
me
that
if
you
want
to
build
an
agent
that
is
human
like
it
has
to
have
something
like
a
body
doesn't
have
to
maybe
be
a
body
and
I'm
sure
there
are
many
clever
ways
that
you
could
implement
something
like
a
body
without
it
actually
being
a
body.
If
you
know,
if
you
understand
what
I
mean
so.
B
F
B
Here's
just
say
one
other
thing,
because
I
think
it's
really
important
all
a
brain
requires
is
that
you
at
some
point
had
a
body
you
know
right
so,
basically
being
this
is
what
phantom
limb
pain
is.
This
is
what
chronic
pain
is.
This
is
what
happened.
You
know
if
at
some
point
you
cease
to
get
information
from
your
body
anymore.
Your
brain
still
can
simulate
still
can
reinstate
the
sensory
patterns
that
once
came
from
the
body
and
that's
what's
required
right
at
some
point.
The
body
isn't
really
needed
anymore.
G
Emotions
in
humans
Lucas
are
they
implemented
by
a
bunch
of
hacks?
So
there's
a
bunch
of
chemicals
that
go
into
your
brain.
Those
oxytocin
serotonin
a
whole
bunch
of
biochemical
things
that
diffuse
around
in
the
fluids
in
your
brain
that
affect
your
emotional
state,
and
that
seems
like
a
Hank
that
we've
inherited
over
millions
of
years
from
premature
ancestors.
And
if
you
look
at
the
machine
learning
world,
we
can
do
a
bunch
of
similar
things
with
you
on
that.
So
you
can
increase
the
activation
thresholds
on
a
large
scale.
G
You
have
changed
the
map
noise
going
into
the
system.
You
can
do
a
bunch
of
similar
things,
but
you
don't
have
to
rely
on
fluids
being
kind
of
cleaned
slowly
by
glial
cells.
Things
don't
diffuse
around
in
and
fluid
in.
The
system
necessarily
seems
like
there's
a
lot
more
flexibility.
So
when
you
come
to
an
implementation,
there's
not
so
many
constraints
imposed
by
the
evolutionary
history
on
the
whole
system
and
it
seems
like
that
would
make
it
work
better.
So
when
people
are
in
negative
emotional
states-
and
they
can't
think
straight.
B
B
B
Brain
is
a
physical,
it's,
a
set
of
physical
cells
that
are
bathed
in
neuro
chemical
systems
and
the
neuro
chemical
systems
that
you're
referring
to
basically
change
the
ease
with
which
information
is
passed
back
and
forth
between
those
neurons.
That's
always
true.
It's
true,
regardless
of
whether
the
event
is
a
motion
or
whether
it's
a
perception
or
whether
it's
a
thought
or
whether
it's
a
belief,
it's
always
true.
So,
for
example,
serotonin
serotonin
is
a
neurotransmitter
that
allows
your
brain
to
delay
gratification
of
a
reward.
B
It
allows
you
to
expend
energy
now,
because
you
anticipate
a
reward
at
some
point
in
the
future,
and
if
you
have
a
deficit
in
serotonin,
then
you
can't
do
that
very
well
and
it
turns
out
for
humans.
One
of
our
great
superpowers
is
the
ability
to
do
mental
time
travel
to
remember
in
the
past
and
also
to
do
things
now,
because
we
know
they're
going
to
have
an
effect
ten
or
twenty
or
fifty
or
a
hundred
years
from
now.
B
So
the
the
you
know
in
when
I
said
you
have
to
have
something
like
a
body
I'm
not
saying
literally,
you
have
to
have
a
physical
corporeal
body.
I'm
saying
you
have
to
have
you
I
mean
it's
just
a
fact:
it's
not
an
argument.
It's
a
fact
that
your
brain
that
brains
evolved
for
the
purposes
of
regulating
multiple
systems
and
from
a
cybernetics
standpoint,
you
know
the
best
way
to
regulate
a
system
is
to
build
an
internal
model
of
it.
That's
what
your
brain
is.
B
Your
brain
is
an
internal
model
of
your
body
in
the
world.
It's
running
simulations,
it's
running
this
model
and
if
you
want
to
have
an
age
that
is
somewhat
human-like
that
has
feelings
like
humans,
then
they
have
to
do
something
that
they
have
to
have
to
be
able
to
do
something
similar
and
whether
it's
a
actually
physical,
corporeal
body
or
not
I
think
is
you
know,
that's
an
open
question
right.
So.
G
B
G
B
Think
they're
wrong.
You're
talking
about
emotions
like
they're
they're,
talking
the
the
premise
of
your
question,
I
can't
answer
your
question
because
I
think
it's
not
the
correct
question:
I
mean
what
its
emotions
aren't
like
blood
pressure.
You
know
they
don't
exist.
In
that
sense
they
are.
They
are
the
way
that
they
are.
First
of
all.
G
B
I,
you
know,
but
you
will
see.
Sometimes
scientists
will
assign
you
know,
I'm
an
emotional
meaning
to
something
like
dopamine
is,
for
you
know,
first
hedonic
pleasantness,
and
then
it's
for
reward
people
like
to
assign
single
functions.
Two
biological
entities
like
a
chemical
or
a
brain
region,
a
cluster
of
neurons
or
it's
just
not
that's,
really
I'm,
not
saying
every
chemical
does
everything,
but
whatever
whatever
opioids
do
they
do
in
every
waking
moment
of
your
life,
not
just
in
moments
that
are
emotional
for
you.
D
Yep
I
think
it
is
very
interesting
that
you
brought
up
the
last
topic
of
love
because
I
think
it
actually
brings
up
a
really
important
thing
which
is
and
what
you
were
saying
about
connection
that's
I
mean
the
primary
purpose
of
life
is
to
procreate
right
I
mean
that
that's
what
our
genes
do
so.
First.
D
B
Here's
what
I
would
say
you
know
when
we're
we're.
First
of
all,
we're
not.
We
talk
about.
We've
been
focusing
a
lot
on
bodies,
I'm,
certainly
not
saying
that's
a
sufficient
condition
right,
I'm,
just
saying
it's
a
Ceri
one
or
something
like
a
body,
but
I
certainly
have
the
motivation
to
create
and
I'm.
Imagining
that
you
do
too
I
have
to
tell
you
not
everybody
has
that
most
adolescents
don't
have
that
many
adolescents,
don't
have
it.
Okay,
that
was
a
joke.
B
I
have
a
teenage
daughter,
I'm,
just
telling
you
yeah,
but
the
point
is
that
that
what
people,
what
people
find
rewarding
is
is
remarkably
diverse,
but
the
property
I
think
is
that
there
has
to
be
a
feature
of
reward
for
for
a
lot
of
people.
That's
you
know
that's
having
an
impact
in
some
way,
having
an
impact
on
another
person
having
an
impact.
You
know
on
a
building,
something
that
wasn't
there
before,
whatever
you
know
in
in
innovating
or
I'm
discovering,
but
it's
not
true
for
everybody.
B
It's
just
true
for
like
a
lot
of
people
in
this
room,
probably,
and
certainly
the
people
that
we
probably
spend
a
lot
of
time
with,
but
not
not,
for
everybody
sure
I
mean
look,
but
if
you
want
to
you
know,
if
you
want
to,
if
you
you
know,
we
can
certainly
make
a
kinetic
argument
here.
Absolutely
there
there,
the
there's
nothing
that
I've
said
today.
That
is
inconsistent
with
the
idea
that
that
you
have
to
that.
B
B
You
know
the
the
learning
of
social
reality
concepts
of
social
reality
that
we've
been
talking
about
like
money
and
emotions,
and
so
on.
That
makes
that
argument
right
that
it's
very
expensive
to
have
to
encode
everything
in
jeans
or
to
have
to
learn
everything
from
scratch
every
generation.
So,
instead,
what
we
have
is
a
system,
a
genetic
system
that
allows
us
to
wire
the
brains
of
the
young
with
what
we
know
and
that's
what
we
do.
Basically
right.
E
So
it's
the
I'm
curious
about
your
analogy
about
intentionality
that
you
talked
about
when
you
use
the
analogy
between
money
and
the
perception
of
red
to
the
facts
that
we,
the
fact
that
we
have
emotion,
because
the
distinguishing
feature
it
seems
to
me
is
the
level
of
intentionality
and,
as
you
said
before,
our
brain
assigns
meaning
to
things.
But
we
don't
or
maybe
and-
and
my
question
is
whether
or
not
you
agree
with
this
I
guess
we
don't
always
deliberately
assign
me.
E
But
sometimes
we
do
write
often
actually
yeah.
So
when
you
go
back
to
like
the
question
of
what
makes
something
intelligent,
a
lot
of
previous
talks
have
been
about.
You
know
we
want
to
pick
a
goal
and
then
we
create
costs
to
achieve
that
goal,
but
that
goal
is
deliberately
if
assigned
so
when
you
talk
about
like
what
makes
something
intelligent.
B
First
of
all,
we
talk
about
intentionality
I,
think
you
have
to
really
be
careful
that
you
are
philosophers
talk
about
intentionality
in
two
ways:
they
talk
about
intentionality
to
mean
a
deliberate
action.
The
way
you
mean
it,
but
intentionality
can
also
mean
that
something
has
a
referent
out
in
the
real
we're
out
and.
A
B
B
Mean
you're,
you're,
sort
of
making
you're
sort
of
making
I
mean
wait.
The
kind
of
question
you're
asking
is
getting
very
close
to
the
question
of
free
will,
so
I
would
love
to
not
have
disgust,
but
but
basically,
okay
and
and
I.
What
I'm
about
to
say
is
gonna
sound,
very
Cartesian,
unfortunately,
because
that's
English
I,
don't
know,
there's
no
other
way
to
do
it
actually.
But
what
I
want
to
say
is
that
your
brain
is
always.
B
There
is
always
a
volition,
but
it's
not
always
consciously
experienced
by
you
as
as
agency,
or
will
so
yeah
you're,
not
you're,
not
a
sea
urchin.
You
know
your
sensory
neurons
are
not
hardwired
to
your
motor
neurons.
You
have,
inter
neurons.
That
means
you
have
choice.
Do
you
consciously
experience
yourself
as
making
choices
all
the
time?
No,
you
don't,
but
your
brain
is
actually
making
choices
all
the
time.
That's
why
people
who
study
decision
making
you
know
think
they're
studying
the
whole
brain
because
they
they
are
actually
so
I.
B
Think
you
have
to
be
really
careful
about.
There
are
words
that
we
use
in
English
and
in
science
that
have
two
meanings.
They
can
have
a
meaning
that
is
about
decision
making
or
choice,
that
is
just
obligatory
automatic
and
a
function
of
how
the
system
works
and
then
there's
the
kind
of
choice
that
feels
deliberate
and
effortful
and
where
we
feel
like
we're
the
agents
we
experience
ourselves
as
the
agents
and
intentionality
usually
can
be
assigned
to
the
second
one.
E
B
H
So
you've
been
asked
a
lot
of
esoteric
questions
about
AI,
but
I
think
we
might
gain
some
insights
by
wondering
about
di.
That
is
a
dog
intelligence,
oh
sure,
so
I
believe
I
sort
of
understand
what
my
dog
is
feeling
and
III
usually
believe
that
my
dog,
you
know,
believes
the
same,
but
not
the
same
with
you
know
a
cat
because.
H
Mean
you
know:
I'm,
not
I,
don't
know
that
much
about
monkeys
but
I've
never
really
seen
a
monkey
be
able
to
make
the
expressions
that
let's
say
a
dog
can
and
I
was
wondering
if
you
had
any
insights
about.
You
know
why
dogs
are
able
to
do
this
and
why
we're
able
to
read
dogs.
Is
it
something
just
simple
like
they're?
They
have
the
right
facial
muscles,
or
is
it
something
some
drive
that
allows
them
to
learn
this
so.
B
I
think
before
I
wrote,
my
book
I
would
have
answered
this
question
differently,
but
now
here's
what
I
would
say,
I
think
what
you
know.
Many
creatures
on
this
planet
have
effect
right
and
we
can
debate
about
whether
you
know
I
just
came
across
a
paper
the
other
day
about
whether
fly
you
know
just
your
Safa
I
have
have
effect,
and
you
know
it's
I
mean
it's
actually
really
interesting
question.
They
certainly
they
have
something
like
opioids
and
they
you
know.
B
So
it's
consistory
question,
but
dogs
dogs
are
really
interesting
because
they
do
seem
to
have
some
capacities
that
only
that
you
only
see
in
in
great
apes,
and
they
may
have
capacities
that
great
apes,
even
other
than
us,
don't
have
and
I
mean
so
they
certainly
have
some
capacities.
We
don't
have
either,
but
but
here's
my
point,
we
actually
bred
them.
We
bred
these
animals,
we
selected
them.
Basically,
it's
not
natural
selection,
it's
it's!
You
know
artificial
selection
and
we
selected
them
for
a
couple
of
things
right.
B
If
you
look
at
the
experiments
on
breeding
taking
a
fox,
you
know
taking
foxes
and
breeding
them
into
what
looked
like
little
dog
like
animals,
it's
interesting
what
they
can
do
and
one
of
the
things
they
can
do
is
they
can
move
their
facial
muscles
and
in
in
in
a
lot
of
ways
that
they
have
a
lot
more
control
over
their
facial
muscles.
Then
you
know
chimpanzees
and
do
and
and
other
apes,
and
they
also
do
they
do
joint
attention
really
well
with
gays.
B
So
this
is
something
that
really
no
other
animal
can
do
I
think
other
than
a
dog
other
and
humans,
and
that
is
they
can
they
they
meet
your
gaze
and
they
use
gaze
for
reference.
So
you
know
they'll,
look
at
something
and
they'll
look
back
at
you
and
you,
you
know,
that's
actually,
partly
that's
how
we
communicate
with
each
other.
Chimpanzees
lose
that
ability,
after
about
ten
or
eleven
months
a
year
overall
of
age,
but
but
dogs
continually
do
it
and
actually
joint
attention.
Shared
gaze
is
how
we
communicate
with
our
infants.