ONNX Foundation WG, 12 Sep 2019

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From YouTube: ONNX Foundation WG - Apache intro meeting 20190912

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Meeting recorded by Jim Spohrer (IBM) on September 12, 2019. This is intro meeting with Apache Foundation: Luciano Resende. David Aronchick (Microsoft) and Ryan Loney (Intel) joined the meeting as well.

A

Hey this is Jim spore and thank you Brian for joining and thank you Luciano for joining, and this is a call or recording, because we're going to pick your brain luciano about the Apache foundation and thanks for making yourself available on short notice, I know you're an Apache gon weave in your hotel room and just heading back here to California, so appreciate you squeezing this in. Since we think you know contacts, but let me just provide it. Oh there's someone else joining no BJ's joining. Thank you. 10.

B

Min to drop, please continue.

A

Know it no worries we're just getting the recording started and I was setting the context. I told Luciana we'd be picking his brain about the Apache foundation, so the purpose of this call is the Onyx community has established a working group to move onyx into a foundation I'm co-chair along with Ryan Loney from Intel who's on Ryan.

A

Did you want to introduce yourself more or just say hello, yeah I'll just say hello, I'm, Ryan, I'm, a product manager and the AI software with Intel and we're excited about onyx having a foundation and looking forward to hearing more about Apache since we've heard about Eclipse and LS ai and sounds like you're a patchy expert. So looking forward to hearing thanks you ready and Vijay, do you want to introduce yourself Center.

B

On the colonists, oh sure, yeah, my name is Vijay bomb ready, Pali I'll eat this. A group with an IBM called the Center for open source data and AI technologies or Co day. As the acronym stands, it was previously called the spar, Technology Center and we've expanded beyond spark to deep learning, basically, the end-to-end AI life cycles or from ml data prep. All the way to you know civilization formats and things for that. So that's our our interest in onyx, yeah and.

A

You also because SPARC is part of the Apache foundation, have quite a bit of experience with having projects.

B

In the absolutely.

A

B

And then, and and Luciano is a great team member to have for that. Okay.

A

Great so yeah our focus is going to be on the Apache foundation. For this call we did have a similar call with Eclipse and Linux Foundation II I. Just so you know as well and so Luciano. This call is being recorded and you know onyx community members will be listening to it. So if you could introduce yourself and.

C

A

I do have I, think I'm sharing my screen, I think I'm sharing my screen and you can see a few questions we have here.

A

You know brief history and mission of the foundation, its ability to on board you know into a vendor-neutral home on excit and assets and the ability to for the Apache foundation to kind of let the onyx community self govern itself and run. Those are the kinds of things the community's most interested in hearing about so over to you, you see an oh great.

C

Thank you, so my name is Luciano has named I've, been I work with code, a team as well and I have been doing different projects at Apache for oh and over 10 years already it's been doing projects from start just projects as contributors, projects from failures and everything so I know a little bit of different areas. So let me give these. Did you stop sharing your yeah.

A

Idea, okay, I wanna sure.

C

Known I, don't I'll just try to go over some of the topics.

A

Ago, like I can share my screen again, so you can see the lip sorry I.

B

A

Need to take that proper way, I just thought you were running.

C

A

C

I'm try to go over some of these, that the items here and I think feel free to to interrupt and ask questions so that we we go further on any topic if needed, but a brief history of Apache, so basically Apaches a non-profit foundation for creating software free to use open source software.

C

We are basically at this point commemorating and allopatric on. We had a big party kind of like celebrating the 20th year of apache doing this 20 year. We started as one project, and I think we have tons of projects today, a lot that are very famous and on some not necessarily, but but all like. The idea behind is building communities around the projects we have.

C

What we say at apache is something called like a apache way, which we value a lot more like community over code, so that, if you are working on a specific project in maybe like it's a collaboration between different vendors, if one vendor may strategically probably lose a little bit of like an interest on that, the community behind it can still take that project. Move move forward and continue with that.

C

In terms of like a vendor, neutral location, I think the thing that we see an Apache is that, like, although we know that companies are paying engineers to work on projects or companies are sponsoring some projects or the foundation in general, we take each individual as kind of like individual contributor kind of like volunteering themselves to work on a specific project.

C

So the way we feel each contribution is they're using their contributor hat. We call it instead of like bringing their thinking as them as part of like a retail or IBM, or the organization that are actually blowing them and I. Think that gives a much more vendor-neutral aspect to the community and we'd also value the contributions that are coming from actually individuals the same way from one individual to the other, without any specific effect.

C

Influence based on on who you employed those contributors.

A

Lucy Anna I'll just mention that David Ronn chick from Microsoft just joined and David I, don't know if you want to say hello as we're going through the Apache foundation. Now everyone yeah it's just a project for Microsoft, hello,.

C

A couple of other things too, to mention so like a why people comes to a posh, ii-in kind of like why we are just certain extent. Successful. I. Think. A couple of things. Initial thing, I think is the Apache License is a very permissive license that has been vetted and has a great enterprise acceptance and adoption. So a software that our Apache License it can be used. It can be renamed, it can be. You have a lot of like flexibility on what you can do with that, and enterprises have come to like that.

C

We have a very meritocratic governance model, so the governance model is very kind of like well understood and accepted by enterprises, individuals and actually recognized based on their contributions, and we kind of like have a very concrete set of like levels that you can reach and usually specific ways to get to from one level to the other. So individual contributors are folks that just kind of become maybe collaborate with the project. Then we have commuters. Commuters are kind of like identified by the existing community members, the PMC members they vote.

C

They nominate and vote on a given committee and then those commuters kind of like start having access to directly right right to the repository.

C

The next level is what we call like PMC members project management, community members, those are kind of like a level up into the commuters and they start kind of like having more responsibilities around the direction of the project. So they kind of like the folks that take the projects validate, for example, things like a branding of the project that they are going in. They are responsible also for devoting sporty on releases voting on new committers.

C

Then the next level is kind of like a foundation member, a foundation member is kind of like a an Apache level type of like membership, and similarly those are nominated and votes and voted. The vote is broad in terms of, like is the whole foundation that has to accept, and we have what they call kind of like a member meetings that happen.

C

I think once or twice a year and during that that time we vote for new members, and we also have a vote for the board and kind of like the board, is kind of like provide oversight on kind of like the whole Apache project. The whole kind of like different projects that are happening, and if there are issues with specific projects that needs to be escalated. We don't have what we call like any PDF file or anything like that.

C

We escalate to the ball to the board and usually would try to get consensus on the direction to take or Corrections than it should be to be done and I think the last thing around like why Apache I think the branding I think it's a very recognized branding when you talk about Apache when you talk about Apache projects in the acceptance that, when you're talking about a need to start using an Apache project, I think those are very helpful in terms of like a project.

C

Just I have some information here, not necessarily the most up-to-date but I. Think, in terms of like the foundation we have about six thousand one hundred and ninety commuters over seven hundred active members, more than 180 active projects, 53 active polling Spalding's are projects that are coming through incubator and as I mentioned polling.

C

Let me talk about incubator, so when projects come into Apache, they come through what we call the Apache Incubator and the idea there is kind of like the entry point for all projects, and it's mostly to make sure that there is an adjustment period for kind of like learning and following the Apache way.

C

So they kind of like community over code and things like that learning a lot a little bit about the processes right for forgoing releases, but also to have the ability to do kind of like any legal vetting that we need to do in terms of like code granting and things like that.

C

So yeah kind of basically, the two main goals ensure that all donations are in accordance with the ASF legal standards and develop the community. That kind of like adhere to apache guiding principles. The incubator provides some oversight.

C

Usually, we all have kind of like a mentors that helps you follow the apache way and looking to kind of like policies around releases usually is at least three members depending on the project.

C

If sorry, three mentors, depending on the project, you can have more, we provide kind of like a there is a legal PMC and those are responsible to a short operation part, but also like any legal related questions, license related questions that we might have if it hasn't been answered before they will help us get the right answer in that regards the the incubator, PMC, also kind of like a guides around community.

C

Some of the things that we have learned in the past that helps build communities around projects, and there is also kind of like a regular check point to just make sure that the projects are going the right direction. We basically do a quarterly report kind of thing, just kind of like stating the state to the current status of the project.

C

Let me see what else is on Jane's list, so I think talking about the ability to in process for the UNIX community to continue the self wrong self self govern. I. Think as I was mentioning that the pmc, which is created from the project. So when you, when you enter incubator, you will have a initial set of folks that are the initial commuters. Those are also the initial kind of like PMC members. When you go out of graduation, then you have a list of all deaf, all those folks that initially enter with the project.

C

With the additions that you had, you have the ability to kind of like clean up folks that maybe haven't participated or have done emeritus, but then those are the ones that actually kind of like continual self-governing the project.

C

So there isn't much of like any external influence and in that sense, from any different projects or the board. It's mostly if there are issues or problems, serious problems with the project that the board will interfere. There.

C

Let me see if I missed anything here, I think that gives a very high level. Do you guys want me to go into more details on any of the topics or drill down on any of the specific questions here? Do you guys have any other questions around.

A

Yeah, let's ask Ryan or David if they have any questions, so this is a great overview. Thank you.

B

Yeah, it was great yeah.

A

Are there anything yet right now, I.

C

Was just missing, I mean I, think you guys have learned from from here. There's any comparisons or any things that you guys maybe saw how it would work on a different foundation that maybe I can try to do a comparison on how it would work at Apache, yeah.

A

That's a great question, so one of the things the you know: how does this align with the onyx community's core value? The core values? Are things around speed, transparency and openness and so, for example, a Eclipse Foundation. They said it would probably take about two months to onboard onyx and I said: that's basically, assuming that you have all the lawyers you know collaborating and happy it takes about two months: the Linux Foundation AI. They said they can do it a little bit faster.

A

They because onyx is already presented there and several of the people on our working group because, like we're from Horrible, it has already gone through them. Have people who know that process a little bit better, so they thought it would be a little faster? How long does it take to get a project into Apache, Incubator yeah, no in general, so.

C

Usually, things happen in Apache in.

C

Multiples of 72 hours, we usually say with, we live something open for at least 72 hours, so the process here would be. We start a disco. We great a proposal proposal can be once it's ready. We present to Apache and say: ok, we are trying to bring the patchy onyx to Apache. Here is the proposal.

C

We leave that open for discussion for at least like 72 hours once that 72 hours is gone and there isn't any any major hiccups there, which usually, if you are aligned with member measures and stuff the reason we move to actual formal vote, which is a 72 hours again and once you the vote, is closed and you have the at least three plus ones.

C

It means that the project becomes an oafish. It's ready to get into bubbling from that one. The infrastructure kind of like start moving things in terms of infrastructure. A lot is already self-service, so someone that has the proper access that is a member or a VP of another project can kind of like just come and create those things. I have access, so it's a as because the new commuters provide their I CLA, which is kind of like a requirement to create the account we can create the account for those, the maining laces and everything else.

C

It's it's. It's very kind of like a maybe one or a couple days to to get those up and running, so it will take a probably I think making a little bit of the map there two weeks weekend. If everything goes mostly, if we have hiccups or or questions or anything that needs to be answered, mostly just the discussion part. So it might go a little bit over that. Okay.

A

Very good and any costs associated to this.

C

That there isn't any cost directly cause I mean I, know some of the folks I think they are already sponsors, but there.

A

Is no we yeah Microsoft is on the steering committee. Facebook is on the steering committee, Amazon, Intel and NVIDIA. Those are the five members of the current steering committee. I, don't know if they're all members sponsors of Apache or not that's.

C

A very easy to to look up, but what I wanted to make sure is there is Apache, is not kind of like a a paper play, so there is not a requirement.

C

What we have been seeing- and it's kind of like a good thing- that that started happening a few years ago- is that some projects might have specific requirements. They might need a specific infrastructure that maybe it's not available or is not a to the requirements of the project need and then we can have targeted sponsorship.

C

So what I've seen in the past is, let's say, open with needed a specific hardware for their build infrastructure, set up in a specific way, and they didn't want to have any kind of like other folks, sharing that for performances reasons they they were able to chose okay, we're going to donate the machines, Apache will maintain for for them, and that becomes very beautiful structure.

C

So unless you start going to a bad direction, there is no initial associated costs, but it also like a the foundation needs to get kind of like maintain it, and we welcome kind of like sponsors and other facts. Right.

A

Very good, so it sounds good I, don't think I have any other questions. I'm just trying to think of other things that came up with the eclipse call or Linux founders may I call. It sounds like the speed is there. It sounds like the transparency. Is there the openness is there, it sounds like a patchy.

A

You know if a community is governing itself well doesn't interfere only when things get escalated up to the board. Would that potentially happen? I think I've got everything I eat how when it comes time for transfer of assets and I and I believe the steering committee is working on trying to figure on how to get the onyx runtime integrated into the same github. The onyx code is in Bryan or David. You can correct me if I'm wrong, but assuming that the you know Microsoft and Facebook are current owners I think of most of the assets.

A

Do you know how that process of transferring that? Let's work, yeah.

C

Yes, so uh there is a SDA I think it's software grant something. So it's a document that who owns the EPP IP will have to sign and submit to Apache that kind of like transfer things if there are trademarks and other things, those usually are transferable as well.

C

There is it a specific requirement that you need to do that at the first day, so the idea is you're. Getting to incubation. The period of incubation gives you a little bit of like a gap time to handle all of those processes.

C

Then, in terms of like code, that code doesn't necessarily need to be all like. In one repository. There are different ways of doing the repository transfer. You can actually just transfer to Apache, or we can kind of like do a mirror of the code so, depending on the approach that people want to take, it can go different ways, but that usually is.

C

This is something that that can be done quickly can be even done by. Let's say one of the employees of who have the IP rights so that that the employee has the ability to just kind of like grab the code and push the code to an empty repository that they created at the Apache foundation.

A

Okay, great I, think that's all the questions. I have thank you for going through the list. I think we've covered everything in this introductory exploratory call. Let me just see if anyone else on the call has anything.

A

Thank You Luciano thing for.

B

A

Like I think we're good to go, thank you so much again, Luciano and I'll stop the recording, now recording and we'll end up posting it at the in the Onyx community. So thanks again Lucy and we'll circle back with any next excerpts or questions. We have really appreciate your time. Okay,.

B

Great. Thank you thank.

A

You bye everybody. Thank you.