►
From YouTube: Experiments Towards the Open Source Economy
Description
With Harris Kenny - I met Harris when he was at Lulzbot years ago in his community manger role. Now Harris started an open source hardware market intelligence effort - https://oshdata.com/
We talk here about the future of open hardware, with Extreme Enteprise.
https://wiki.opensourceecology.org/wiki/Extreme_Enterprise
More notes at
https://wiki.opensourceecology.org/wiki/Harris_Kenny
-----------------
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B
A
B
B
Yeah,
we
were
pretty
pretty
successful.
Well,
you
know
we
did
the
idea
in
the
beginning,
and
we
actually
never
quite
got
to
the
point
where
we
built
out
the
full
engine
for
four
more
smaller
dollar
donations,
because
the
need
was
kind
of
receding
at
the
time
our
focus
in
the
beginning
was
on
a
large
dollar.
B
Fortunately,
there
was
a
lot
of
like
a
lot
of
people
were
thinking
about
it
and
wanted
to
do
something
and
because
we
were
very
regionally
focused,
I
think
that
helped
us
get
people
showing
up
who
are
focused
on
Colorado
in
particular,
and
they
were
just
looking
for
something
to
do
and
because
we
were
able
to
kind
of
the
community
grew
really
quickly
and
we
were
making
PBE
quickly.
Yeah
I
think
people
just
saw
like
a
straight
line
between
that
goal
and
what
we
were
doing,
and
so
they
felt
comfortable
donating.
B
Primarily,
it
builds
almost
like
it's
primarily
face
shields.
Yeah.
Now
we've
got
some
other
things
in
progress.
We've
got
a
papper
hood
design
and
we've
been
working
with
Dewalt,
actually
who's.
Looking
at
donating
batteries
in
a
construction
company,
swenerton
who's
potentially
going
to
be
supporting
and
helping
us
build
out.
Some
more
of
those.
The
momentum
has
I
think
slowed
down
a
little
bit.
It's
a
little
wait-and-see
right
now,
but
very
hopeful
about
that
and
those
pepper.
They
would
be
really
good
because
the.
C
B
Would
be
really
helpful
for
doctors
and
for
first-line
folks
I
think,
masks,
fabric
masks
and
and
face
shields
I
think
that
I
think
we're
kind
of
good
there.
I
don't
right
now,
based
on
everything
I'm
seeing
but
I
do
think.
There
are
still
some
needs
for
some
more
sophisticated
things
and
if
another
surge
happens,
people
might
need
those
basics
again.
B
B
I
know
that
I'm
not
on
that
design
team.
The
plan
is
that
it's
going
to
be
open
sourced,
I,
don't
know
if
it
is
already
I
am
actually
just
not
sure,
but
I
know
that
we've
had
the
DeWalt
team
was
reviewing
it
and
last
I
saw
and
heard
that
they,
the
designs
kind
of
cleared
their
engineering
review.
So
that
was
a
good
sign,
but
yeah
I'll
have
to
ask
Dan
that
make
for
covert
who's
working
on
that
kind
of
like
what's
the
status
on
the
source.
That's.
B
A
D
A
A
whole
initiative
and
and
all
of
Illinois,
so
that's
another
one,
but
basically
scoped
out,
what's
available
like
I've
kind
of
been
doing
just
other
stuff,
like
my
focus
like
right
now,
is
shredding
like
recycling
plastic
and
also
the
high
temperature
printer
so
moving
along
on
the
high
temperature
printer.
Because
that
way
you
could
do
things
like
sterilizable
PPE.
So
that's
a
yeah.
B
A
A
game-changer
for
higher
temperature
materials,
we're
talking
about
high
temperature
but,
like
all
the
components
are
removed
from
the
bed,
there's
a
very
simple
design.
We've
got
on
that,
but
anyway,
and
then
we're
planning
on
September
being
a
big
steam
camp
event
were,
but
that
just
remotely
so
that's
that's
kind
of
where
we
are
yeah.
C
A
A
I
was
gonna
say
that
the
the
cool
thing
that
happened
right
now
there
are
some
products
out
there
like
in
a
PPE
world,
also
some
of
the
ventilators
yeah,
the
actual
ventilators
there's
a
I,
don't
know
how
much
you've
been
following
that,
but
all
of
that
work
around
that
has
definitely
gotten
us
to
components
like
an
automated
ball
valve.
There's.
A
3D
printer,
like
lots
of
different
little
pieces
that
are
coming
together.
So
that's
a
good
thing,
so
I'm
thinking
for
the
September.
We
can
focus
okay,
here's
some
printers
and
we
can
actually,
let's,
let's
do
a
burst
of
product
like
real
product
development,
is
distilling
what's
there
and
going
forward
with
what
really
works
and
I've.
B
B
B
Here
we
go
cover
life,
so
that's
just
like
they're
sort
of
promo
page.
Let
me
see
if
there's
a
link
to
the
github
here,
yep
yeah
just
kind
of
like
skim
through
that,
but
it
looks
very
interesting
to
me
also
because
you
know
in
this
case
we're
talking
about
n95,
but
you
might
want
to
have
pressing
of
other
materials
right
like
this.
You
know
that
that
aren't
a
95,
but
maybe
there's
something
else.
Maybe
there's
some
other
concern
in
the
future
that
you
want
to
protect
from
that.
That
isn't
this
specific
thing,
Oh
interesting.
A
B
Yeah
they're
there
in
Longmont
they're
a
really
neat
company
there.
There
are
overall
hardware
is
an
open-source,
but
they
did
open
source
that
machine.
They
make
a
machine
that
does
CFC
milling,
3d,
printing
garnishing.
It's
a
pretty
cool,
pretty
cool
system,
I'm,
making
a
note
here
to
follow
up
with
with
dan
about
the
papper
design
and
see
if
that's
on
github,
yet.
A
A
I
have
a
coach
who
coaches
me
in
marketing
and
he
raised
this
questions
like.
Oh,
it's
a
really
good
question.
What
problem
are
we
solving
for
in
the
world
of
movement?
Hardware
and
I
came
up
with
in
two
words
it's
called
extreme
manufacturing,
so
you
might
have
heard
our
stuff
like
wikispeed
and
stuff
extreme
sorry,
mixing
up
terms,
did
I
say
extreme
enterprise,
no.
A
A
With
weekee
speed
project
yeah,
so
if
you
go
to
extreme
manufacturing
Wikipedia,
so
Joe,
Joe
and
I
coined
that
term
a
bunch
of
time
ago,
and
it
refers
to
this
extremely
rapid,
build
swarm
based,
build
and
development
process.
Okay
nailed
it.
The
stuff
works
like
crazy
he's,
making
money
teaching
companies
doing
that
we're
trying
to
eke
our
way
doing
extreme
manufacturing
workshops
where
we
produce
things
and
teach
people
at
the
same
time
that
business
model
can
be
robust
and
developed.
We're
working
on
it.
But
the
thing
we
have
not
touched
is
extreme
enterprise.
D
A
What
is
that
so
so
take
the
same
kind
of
efficiencies
of
crazy
swarms.
All
you
got
to
do
is
throw
bodies
at
it.
That's
the
lesson.
That's
the
lesson
from
open
software
right.
You
got
enough
eyes
looking
at
it,
and
every
problem
is
shallow,
no
question
about
it
and
it's
it's
the
forthcoming
revolution
and
hardware.
So
the
reason
I've
been
thinking
a
lot.
Ok,
what's
it
take
to
to
do
this
in
practice
and
I
might
have
mentioned
the
remember.
The
cordless
drill
challenge,
yeah.
C
A
We're
not
gonna
do
that
in
September.
We're
delayed
on
it
because
of
the
covert
stuff,
but
I
was
thinking
about
a
smaller
scale
experiment
that
could
do
it.
So
so
what
if
we
design
a
hackathon?
Well
architected
hackathon
that
goes
on
one
side.
There's
product
development
aspects,
so
there's
a
formal
methodology
can
say:
okay
for
open-source
product
development
to
happen.
A
You've
got
all
these
things
that
need
to
be
covered,
but
then
you
have
the
second
layer,
and
that
is
what
are
all
the
things
that
would
be
needed
if
we
were
to
spawn
an
enterprise
out
of
that.
So
I
was
thinking
of
a
of
an
experiment.
Of
some
sort,
may
not
be
a
cordless
drill.
Cordless
drills
may
be
too
complicated,
but
something
that's
simpler,
but
still
like
3d
printable,
easy
open-source
manufacturing
kind
of
deal,
because
the
combination
of
3d
printers
with
good
design
can
get
you
real
power
right.
This.
A
Thinking
about
an
event
like
that,
that's
that's
my
latest
thing
and
I
wanted
to
I
wanted
to
get
your
feedback
on
it
like
what
is
first
of
all,
what
is
your
like?
If
we
ask
the
general
question
about
open
hardware
and
enterprise,
so
you're
a
guy
who's
kind
of,
like
you
know,
market
you're,
doing
a
market
it
market
Intel
for
a
market
that
doesn't
exist,
they
could
exist
in
a
major
major
way.
We're
at
we're
at
the
you
know,
we're
at
the
nascent
stages,
probably.
B
B
A
What's
your
assessment
of
the
situation,
why
what
is
miss
like
what's
missing
cuz
cuz
I
came
up.
My
my
answer.
Right
now
is
if
we
nailed
the
extreme
Enterprise
aspect,
meaning
get
a
buttload
of
people
together,
boatload
scope,
scope
out
all
the
tasks
that
need
to
be
done
in
the
end
as
a
real
problem
and
what
I
mean
by
real
product
is
going
up
to
things
like
website
distribution,
marketing,
product
brochures,
Buy
button
sells
stuff
that
the
themselves
can
replicate
or
be
put
on
a
platform.
A
So
was
that
sighs
talked
to
my
mentor
and
he
said
no,
you
get
in
order
for
this
to
work.
You
have
to
have
two
things:
one
is
quality,
control
and
I.
Think
we
can.
We
can
work
on
that.
We
can
solve
that.
But
the
second
thing
is:
you
need
distribution
upfront
because,
because
that
will
be
a
totally
different
game,
changer
or
motivator
like
when
people
come
into
this
they're
saying:
oh
we're.
A
Actually,
gonna
put
your
products
on
our
site,
so
we'd
have
to
probably
do
something
like
that,
develop
that,
whether
that's
like
our
dedicated
site
or
you
know
an
Amazon
store
or
some
some
way,
but
when
I
say
enter
extreme
Enterprise.
We
have
to
develop
all
those
aspects
and
so
running
that
by
you.
What
are
your
thoughts
on
this
thing?
Yeah.
B
Okay,
so
I'll
go
in
reverse
order.
First,
the
I
do
agree
with,
with
your
mentor
on
Quality
Assurance
and
the
having
the
the
demand
the
market
with
make
fork
ovid.
We
were
successful.
Really.
The
real
reason
why
we
were
able
to
raise
money
and
get
volunteers
is
because
the
people
who
started
it
work
with
the
University
of
Colorado,
which
has
the
Anschutz
medical
campus,
which
is
basically
you
know
in
Denver
and
there's
a
lot
of
activity
there.
B
The
people
higher
up
in
the
hospital
supply
org
charts
they
have
their
like
normal
way
of
buying
things
and
they
have
the
normal
way
of
approving
equipment
and
the
the
way
that
we
was
going
directly
to
the
end-users,
who
themselves
were
under-protected
and
then
set
and
then
having
a
and
then
having
them,
reviewed
the
designed
and
approved
the
designs
and
then
going
up
the
chain
and
saying
hey.
They
can
supply
these
I
want
to
wear
this
and
and
getting
it
approved.
B
That
way,
and
it's
not
you
know,
I
think
the
administrators
I
mean
I'll,
give
them
the
benefit
of
the
doubt.
It
was
a
very
difficult
time,
I'm,
not
saying
that
it
is
their
fault
or
anything
I'm,
just
that
was
how
that
was
how
the
change
happened,
and
so
it
was
the
combination
of
having
having
the
domain
and
having
the
quality
assurance.
B
So
if
you're
talking
about
you,
know,
I
think
if
you're
talking
about
open
hardware
in
the
time
of
crisis
that,
like
swarmed
extreme
and
a
pride-
and
we
spun
up
the
you
know,
make
fur
coat.
We'd
had
a
couple
thousand
volunteers
over
the
course
of
a
couple
weeks.
Basically-
and
it
was,
it
was
very-
it
was
sprawling
and
there
was
lots
going
on,
but
the
only
reason
why
anybody
everybody
wanted
the
same
thing,
which
is
that
we
were
in
touch
with
that
with
the
people
who
needed
it.
B
Yeah
volunteers
wanted
to
be
volunteering
for
an
organization
that
was
having
an
impact.
Donors
wanted
to
be
donating
to
an
organization
and
impact
other
doctors
wanted
to
be
receiving
equipment
that
other
doctors
were
wanting
themselves.
That
was
the
linchpin.
That
was
the
reason
why
we
were
able
to
scale
and
grow
quickly
and
those
relationships
were
developed
much
earlier
on,
and
then
they
were
just
activated
in
the
crisis.
B
I
mean
there
was
lots
of
other
things
that
went
along
with
it,
of
course,
but
that
was
I
think
really
the
key,
why
we
were
able
to
very
credibly
very
quickly
say
we
just
you
know.
Within
a
week
we
just
made
a
shipment
to
the
Children's
Hospital
people
are
like
whoa.
All
I'm
hearing
is
that
nobody
has
anything
and
you're
showing
me
pictures
of
a
loading
dock
with
a
box
full
of
face
shields.
You
must
have
something
figured
out,
and
that
is
what
drew
more
people
in
yeah.
C
B
That
just
kind
of
overall
in
this
subject
I
mean
where
do
I
see
open
hardware
right
now,
so
we
did
that
data
project,
the
Oh
sh
data
report,
the
Oh
sh
data,
the
which
is
built
on
the
Oshawa
certification
program.
That
program
has
doubled
in
the
last
two
months.
There's
now
we're
approaching
a
thousand
certifications,
yeah
and
now.
The
reason
for
that
is
that
Adafruit
has
been
certifying,
Adafruit
had
a
backpack
catalog
and
they
used
free
time
for
their
employees
to
certify
so
I.
Think,
there's
there's
two
different
problems
here.
B
One.
The
first
problem
is
how
much
is
open
harder
and
where
is
it
being
used
and
in
the
second
is
how?
Where
are
we
of
it
and
that's
where
the
OSH
recertification
program
comes
up,
but
there's
a
lot
more
open
hardware
in
the
world
than
is
being
certified.
So
it's
an
awareness
problem
which
makes
it
difficult
for
us
to
know
really
what's
happening.
You
know
what
I
mean.
C
A
C
A
You
go
yeah,
so
yes,
great,
but
the
power
of
open
hardware
is
that
is
the
real
deal
in
my
view
is-
and
this
is
kind
of
the
pitch
from
a
long
time
ago,
from
20
starting
open
source.
Ecology
is
that
this
is
about
changing
the
way
people
do
livelihood.
At
the
end
of
the
day,
it's
about
developing
an
open
source
economy,
one
that's
based
on
collaboration
right,
well,
essential
aspect
of
that
is
jobs,
it's
really
jobs.
So
how
so
the
thing
we're
looking
at
is-
and
this
is
ties
into
the
extreme
enterprise.
A
How
do
we
be
creating
these
jobs
based
on
so
that
there's
these
open
products?
How
do
we
actively
engage
in
process?
If
we
have
one,
we
say:
here's
how
you
can
produce
it
or
we
can
train
you
to
do
that
and
that
can
apply
to
very
common
products
like
a
bearing
a
bicycle,
a
PVC
fitting.
That's
printed
on
a
on
a
well
refined,
3d,
open-source
3d,
printer
Joshua
Pierce's
just
did
a
paper
on
the
high
temperature
printer
for
printing
and
peak
and
stuff
like
that.
A
A
None
of
that
happened
really
in
many
ways
right
so,
but
I
think
the
way
we
got
a
Pichet
right
now
is:
okay,
there's
this
incredible
power
that
we
can
have
by
collaborating
and
but
getting
to
that
final
product,
because
that
is
the
thing
that's
missing
like
there's
established
enterprises
that
do
stuff,
there's
Adafruit,
there's
Sparkfun,
there's
all
spot
that
publishes.
We
haven't
published
our
printers
yet
on
Joshua,
but
which
one
of
these
are
actually
replicable
towards
job
creation.
That's
the
that's
the
angle.
A
We
want
to
go
on
and
that's
kind
of
the
next
problem
I
want
to
want
to
be
tackling,
because
we
know
that
production
can
happen.
There's
good
design
that
you
know
if
it's
available
to
the
public,
it's
it's
very
powerful,
but
that
that
aspect
of
distributing
the
enterprises
for
it
doesn't
have
to
be
rocket
science.
It
could
be
very
common
things
that
now
in
Kove
it
like
it's
it's
about
job
creation
kind
of
stuff.
So
so
the
concept
is
yes.
A
Let's,
let's
take
that,
the
next
level,
which
is
okay,
there's
the
Oshawa
directory,
but
here's
a
formal,
a
more
formalized
mechanism
where
we
can
say:
okay,
here's
how
we
replicate
the
enterprise,
how
we
train
people,
how
we
set
up
the
production
facility
and
so
forth.
So
that's
kind
of
like
the
next
game
that
we're
experimenting
with
yeah.
C
B
B
But
this
so
this
is
kind
of
related
to
what
you're
saying,
but
not
exactly
right.
So
I
guess.
The
main
thing
is
that
that
what
your
timing
is
like
that
go
to
market
right
like
the
branding
the
like
collateral,
all
those
things,
but
those
vary
a
lot
depending
on
what
market
you're
in
right,
so
different,
different
industries
are
gonna,
buy
in
different
ways
and
they're
gonna
go
to
different
trade
shows
yeah.
It's
you
know
it's
the
idea
of
like
a
universal
toolkit
sort
of
thing:
that's
tough!
B
There's
a
company
called
tuya
tu
y,
a
it's,
an
interesting
sort
of
open,
ish,
saying
where
they
build
the
devices
they
engineer
them.
They
design
them.
They
basically
built
this
whole
IOT
platform
and
they
white
label
the
whole
thing
it's
kind
of
like
Cleve.
Oh
we've,
computers,
if
you've
heard
of
them.
A
B
So
they're
a
very,
very
big
computer
manufacturing
company
that
you
even
that
no
one's
ever
heard
of
kind
of
thing,
because
they're
behind
the
scenes
than
they
do
white
labeling,
and
so
this
is.
This
is
different
than
what
you're
saying
yes,
exactly
a
gaming
laptops,
all
sorts
of
different
things,
yeah,
and
so
what
I
guess
this
is
Seraph.
B
So
what
what
Cleve?
Oh?
And
what
do
you
have
done?
Is
that
they've
taken
the
product
a
little
bit
further
so
that
you
can
basically
start
a
company,
and
all
you
really
have
to
think
about
is
the
branding
and
the
go
to
market
and
maybe
which
of
their
many
products.
You
want
to
carry
so
it's
important
and
and
there's
big
distinctions
there,
but
you
can
buy
a
cleaver
laptop
and
be
a
gaming
company.
You
can
buy
a
cleveo
laptop
and
install
Linux
on
it
and
be
a
Linux
provider.
B
E
B
Yeah
there
has
been
a
lot
of
growth
and
job
creation
around
this,
and
you
got
again
the
Quality
Assurance
sort
of
thing
and,
and
you
know
the
project's
good
and
they
say:
hey,
look
you
innovate.
On
top
of
that,
you
you
run
with
it.
I
mean
it's
a
good
way
to
take
the
hard
part
of
bringing
a
product
to
market
out
of
people's
hands.
I
mean
designing
something
from
scratch
and
FCC
and
seee.
That's
like
really
hard.
You
know
yeah.
B
A
different
way
of
doing
what
you're
talking
about,
but
those
are
the
two
things
that
come
to
mind
in
the
hardware
space
but
I
sort
of
remind
me
where
they
basically
built
a
platform
that
other
people
can
build.
On
top
of
a
lot
of
companies,
I
mean
in
case
of
cleveo.
They
work
with
three
tears,
so
there's
cleveo
themselves
and
then
next
there's
a
they
work
with
partners
who
actually
do
the
assembly.
B
B
And
finally,
you
would
have
a
brand
like
a
system
76
or
a
tuxedo
computers
or
whatever,
who
would
be
the
actual
brand.
They
would
provide
the
customer
service.
They
would
maybe
decide
what
software
gets
installed
on
there.
So
there's
there's
opportunity
for
entrepreneurship
and
job
creation.
It
had
three
levels
if
you
kind
of
break
it
out
like
that,
and
you
make
it
a
little
more
modular
in
terms
of
the
value
streams
of
the
business
Sager.
E
B
And
they'll
ship,
it
you
know
to
the
customers
and
now
and
Sager
has
their
own
brand
as
well.
The
Savior
has
Sager
branded
computers,
but
they're
the
same
thing:
I
mean
they're,
just
Cleve
owes
as
well
I
don't
mean
just
Cleve.
Oh
I
mean
I,
know
that
they're
doing
additional
work,
but
you
know
the
mean
like
it's
it's
the
same
thing
and.
B
B
E
B
I
assume
I,
don't
know
otherwise.
I
would
think
there
would
have
been
a
trademark
issue
at
some
point
because
they're
both
doing
such
similar
things,
but
you
know
I,
mean
and
and
now
the
thing
is
like
these
companies
are
adding
real
value
for
customers.
You
know
it's
like
how
many
different
ways
are
there
to
build
a
computer.
You
know
there
are
so
many
different
cleveo
models
and
screen
sizes
and
components,
and
things
like
that,
and
so
you
know
there's
value
being
created
in
each
step
of
the
chain.
Yes,.
C
B
You
know
I
think
a
critic
or
whatever
might
question
that
and
might
just
say:
oh
there's,
just
a
bunch
of
middle
middle
men
toll
booth
collectors
in
the
middle
here,
not
adding
any
value,
but
really
the
value
that
they're
creating.
Is
there
they're
configuring
to
the
specific
market?
If
they're
sorry
into
you
know,
yeah.
A
Yeah
Wow.
Okay,
so
that's
that's
interesting
to
think
about
in
terms
of
a
model.
So
how
do
we
do
that
kind
of
among
now?
We
want
to
push
the
limits
to,
because
I
suspect,
of
course,
that
sager
itself
does
not
have
open
hardware
or
open
process
where
they
invite
people
into
that
process
itself.
We
want
to
do
all
that
so
because
we're
talking
about,
let's
transform
the
economy
upside
down,
know
no
holds
barred
here
on
that,
but
yeah
yeah.
B
And
now
with
you
on
that,
and
so
so
there's
there's
two
things
that
are
interesting
here
right
so
like
if
a
company
were
to
and
we'll
just
kind
of,
follow
this
example
just
kind
of
followed
all
the
way
through
right.
So
if
a
company
were
to
do
this
and
if
they
were
to
say
hey,
this
is
the
original
cleveo
design
right
and
it's
like.
B
If
you
look
on
threads
on
Hacker,
News
and
stuff
that
none
of
what
I'm
sharing
a
secret,
even
though
it's
not
necessarily
publicly
posted
a
lot,
but
it's
I
mean
it's
out
there.
You
know
there
would
be
a
benefit
in
saying
look.
This
is
the
original
upstream
design
right
so
like
if
I'm
like
a
tuxedo
computers
or
whatever
and
I'm
buying
cleveo
laptops,
and
if
I
say
this
is
the
cleveo
model.
B
Abc
there's
a
benefit
to
that,
because
then,
if
I
in
terms
of
aftermarket,
if
I
need
to
replace
a
laptop
battery
or
replace
a
motherboard,
it
I
could
buy
in
theory
any
Clio
ABC
component,
and
so
that's
really
good.
The
downside
is
for
the
downstream
brands.
They
make
you
know
extra
margin
and
they
retain
the
relationship
with
their
customer
by
being
the
one
who
can
provide
those
components.
So
you
know
it
puts
more
pressure
on
them
to
be
unique,
just
like
with
the
tuya
example.
B
Whatever
light
bulb
or
smart
outlet,
and
once
you
see
the
two
Lea
designs,
you
realize
that,
like
all
of
these
brands,
so
many
of
them
are
just
yeah
they're
like
completely
identical
they're,
literally
the
same
product,
and
so
then,
when
you
commoditize
the
hardware
like
that
it
puts
pressure
on
the
downstream
partners
to
really
create
value.
So,
like
Tia,
has
a
standardized
app
to
connect
to
all
your
little
devices.
B
So
if
I
start
a
ÿÃ
company
and
I
call
it
open
source,
IOT
and
I
buy
your
hardware
and
I
use
the
you
app
I'm,
not
really
creating
a
lot
of
value.
Besides
the
fact
that
I
call
it
open
source
and
maybe
I,
have
an
open
source
website
or
something,
but
then
if
I
were
to
make
my
own
app,
then
okay,
now
I'm
creating
some
more
value.
So
it
would
put
the
pressure
on
those
peripheral
companies
to
think
about
what
are
they
doing?
B
That's
different
and
and
that
pressure
would
be
increased
if
it
were
totally
open
source.
And
if
you
take
away
that
that
that
it
then
it
looks
like
the
way
some
of
these
OAM
models
work
is
that
it's
there's
it's
opaque
and
that
opacity,
that
lack
of
clarity
on
the
supply
chain
allows
sort
of
a
degree
of
control
and
almost
like
a
little
kind
of
mini
monopoly
where
they
can
say.
B
Oh
well,
you
have
to
get
your
replacement
parts
from
us,
you're
like
well,
no
I,
don't
actually,
and
so
that's
part
of
the
business
model,
so
that
would
would
put
more
pressure,
but
I
think
that
that
would
probably
be
a
good
pressure
yeah
to
make
the
companies
think
more
about
what
I
want
to
do.
That's
different,
that's
special
and
and
yeah,
and
then
you
know
anyway,
so
I'm
just
kind
of
rambling,
but
that
was
just
a
thing
on
the
street
being.
B
A
B
No
doubt
and
I
think
you
know
so
you
know
IOT,
there's
nothing
extremely
proprietary
about
what
yeah
is
doing
right,
they're
just
operating
at
this
really
big
scale
and
they're,
actually
using
generally
speaking,
they're
using
open
standards
because
they
have
so
many
different
companies
using
their
platform
and
developing
apps
that
they're,
actually
a
using
kind
of
you
know
relatively
open
standards.
The
catch
is
that
you
have
to
run
through
their
cloud.
B
So
you
know
you
the
things
phone
home
to
their
cloud
and
things
like
that
and
like
is
not
an
open-source
company,
and
so
it
doesn't
even
actually
need
to
be
like
a
cutting-edge
thing
like
it
doesn't
have
to
be
like
risk.
5
and
oh,
you
want
to
standardize.
You
know
risk
new
risk.
5
hardware,
like
I,
think
tria
shows
that
it
does
not
need
to
be
a
new
thing.
It
can
be
something
that's
been
around
if
you
make
it
easy
we're
able
to
build
on
top
of
your
foundation.
B
A
C
A
C
A
A
It's
a
question:
it's
solving
for
distribution.
That's
the
thing
that
the
last
frontier,
the
economy
that
has
not
yet
been
solved
in
capitalism,
distribution,
you're
not
been
solved
yet
so
yeah,
that's
the
the
more
innovative
business
models.
Now
our
would
be
explicitly
solving
for
that
and
that's
where
we're
saying
from
the
get-go.
It's
like
distributive
enterprise.
We
are
going
to
solve
that
last
problem
of
the
economic
system,
yeah.
B
And
so
yeah
the
way
that
cleveo
and
tuya
and-
and
I
mean
you
know
the
reality-
is
these:
these
products
are
made
in
Taiwan
and
China
the
way
they're
doing
it
is
by
saying
we're.
Gonna
drive
down
the
cost,
we're
not
going
to
invest
anything
in
branding
we're,
not
gonna,
invest
anything
in
sales
and
marketing
in
the
way
that
we're
gonna
grow.
This
market
is
essentially
by
taking
out
the
complexity
of
hardware,
design
and
and
FCC
and
seee
conformity,
and
then
we'll
let
other
people
innovate
elsewhere
and
we're
gonna.
B
Let
them
find
those
little
nooks
and
crannies
and
parts
of
the
economy
where
they
can
sort
of
marginally
create
value,
but
but
they
also
are
monopolizing
in
a
sense,
the
creation
of
these
things.
You
know,
like
you,
end
up
having
one
factory
you
know,
or
one
company
making
all
these
IOT
devices,
and
so
in
a
way,
that's
a
step
backwards.
Yeah.
A
A
Like
he
says,
yeah,
oh
yeah,
everything
is
going
open-source
and
then
I
catch
them.
Okay,
but
at
the
end
of
the
day
that
all
the
production,
it's
all
like
you
kind
of
getting
that
all
into
China
and
and
centralized
in
China
and
he's
saying
well,
okay,
the
factories
are
even
getting
smaller.
Well,
okay,
but
this
is
not
getting
distributed
to
the
far
and
wide
through
the
world.
We
need
to
distribute
at
a
level
of
basic
machines,
producing
the
whole
ecology
of
technology.
A
B
But
yeah
bars
that
prove
that
you
know
coronavirus
I
think
proved
that
right,
local
communities
need
to
be
able
to
source
and
create
things
for
themselves.
Yeah
yeah.
We
cannot
doesn't
matter
who
it
is
or
what
the
or
what
the
factory
is.
We
can't
have
that
it's
too
risky.
We
can't
be
that
leveraged
as
a
society.
Yeah.
C
B
Hidden
risk
there
and
I
think
everybody
saw
that
globally
about
a
month
ago.
Well,
that's
like,
oh
we've
been
kicking
the
can
that
we've
been
hiding
risk
I
mean
you
took
the
financialization
of
the
economy
where
everyone's
kinda,
like
constantly
optimizing
further
individual
margins
and
we're
just
burying
these
landmines
of
risk
and
then
all
of
a
sudden
it
was
just
like
palpable
boom.
Well,
they
all
went
off
when
the
supply
chains
just
seized
up
yeah.
C
B
B
Yeah
I
mean
you
know
like
creating
reference
design
and
people
like
they
did.
People
could
be
licensed
essentially
to
build
businesses
off
of
you
know
the
like.
Well,
how
do
they
do?
What?
How
do
I
do
something?
That's
different.
You
know
the
PC
market
is
a
big
market
like
well
I.
Wouldn't
people
just
want
to
buy
from
oh
I,
see
right.
B
Cuz,
you
want
people
to
really
be
incentivize
if
you
want
to
create
this
like,
and
this
sort
of
it's
like
it's
like
cosmetics,
you
know
Mary
Kay
and
on
all
these
different
things
where
they
have
these
individual
people
that
go
out
and
sell
their
stuff.
You
know
it's
like
how
do
you?
How
do
you
create
a
platform
that
lets
other
people
go
out
and
sell,
but
then
you
also
want
yeah
you're,
creating
both
sides.
B
The
other
way
of
saying
it
would
be
like.
Okay,
let's
build
the
demand
first
build
oh
I,
see
to
brand
first
and
then
have
some
company
do
all
the
manufacturing
and
then
eventually,
like
that's
kind
of
what
system76
is
doing
right
like
now.
They
open
this
Factory
in
Denver
and
they're,
making
PC
they're
making
desktop
PCs
they
when
some
from
sort
of
like
brand
first
and
now
are
slowly
moving
down
the
stack.
B
You
know
what
I
mean
yeah
now
and
they're
moving
in
different
and
it's
taking
them.
They've
been
bootstrapping.
The
company
and
they've
been
working
really
hard.
They
were
doing
for
15
years,
but
now
they
before
they
were
just
doing
a
blue
two.
Then
they
had
Papa
Wes
and
now
pop
OS
is
getting
more
sophisticated.
You
know,
and
now
that
they're
making
their
own
computers
and
now
they're
working
on
making
a
keyboard
and
making
a
laptop.
A
What
about
what
are
your
thoughts
on
like
we're
talking
about?
Don't
worry
about
that.
What
about
a
discovery
process
where
we're
saying?
Okay,
there's
all
these
open
source
companies
or
open
friendly
people?
And
we
inspire
them
to
say:
hey
we're,
gonna
collaborate,
so
we
can
solve
bigger
problems,
notice,
system76,
go
to
everybody,
who's
in
in
a
game
or
or
even
people
who
are
not
an
enterprise.
Yet-
and
we
say:
okay,
we're
gonna
develop
this,
because
we
know
that
we
have
enough
people.
A
We
can
develop
good
things
and
there
are
some
people
that
are
near
the
product
level
like
for
OSC.
Like
we're
all
near
product
level,
we
have
no
called
productized
the
3d
printers,
but
nothing
else
so
far.
It
just
needs.
You
know
that
a
little
bit
of
business
development
part
which
is
actually
very
considerable
right-
it's
called
you
know
actually
getting
an
enterprise
out
of
these
these
designs.
A
C
A
A
But
that's
that's
the
metaphor:
I
think
where
we
say
well,
we
may
not
all
have
the
whole
package,
but
the
bigger
packages
like
striving
for
that
bigger,
open,
an
economy
piece
where
we're
saying
we're,
unabashedly
unafraid
to
share
and
we're
gonna
either
teach
that
which
we
have
or
develop
new
things
together,
so
that
the
assumption
there
has
to
be
our
workload
is
lessened.
We
actually
make
become
more
profitable
with
less
work,
because
that's
what
collaboration
is
supposed
to
do.
If
it's
not
happening,
then
that's
the
wrong
type
of
collaboration,
but
yeah.
A
That's
that's
kind
of
like
a
hairy
idea
there,
but
I'm
at
least
kind
of
thinking
about
how
to
do
it.
What
I
was
thinking
right
now
is
spawn
a
hackathon
where
we
get
like
200
minimum
of
200
people.
There
handpicked
like
very,
very
much
curated
and
we
say:
let's
develop
something,
that's
cool,
that's
that's
got
a
market
and
we
actually
go
into
enterprise
selling
that
and
the
people
that
come
out
of
that
I
have
the
capacity
to
to
build
it
and
sell
it.
It
could
be,
could
be
a
3d
printed
shoe.
A
It
could
be
an
electric
motor,
something
that's
very
significant,
has
a
very
significant
market
and
it
could
be
sold.
But
it's
doable
in
like
a
super
short
time,
because
we
found
that
the
problem
we
were
solving
for
is.
We
cannot
get
people
to
show
up
or
or
stay
show
up
and
stay.
Those
two
things
are
missing
in
open
source
projects,
because
the
financial
feedback
loops
don't
happen
fast
enough,
so
we're
solving
for
with
extreme
and
enterprise
deal
we're
solving
for
that
completion.
The
body's
showing
up
the
product
going
to
the
complete
status.
A
So
we
can
get
those
financial
feedback
loops
happening.
So
that's
that's
the
general
concept.
One
way
to
approach.
It
would
be
not
to
say,
like
we
really
you're
talking
about
different
different
models
like
where,
where
do
we
set
up
this
platform?
I'm
saying
it's
already
here:
it's
called
the
economy
right
and
we're
just
gonna
say:
ok,
let's
open
source
bits
of
it
apart,
one
by
one
cuz.
If
it
works
for
one,
you
can
show
it
works
for
one
and
then,
and
probably
it
would
have
to
work
like
10x
better.
C
A
We
just
do
that
simple
model
like
invite
the
players
invite
basically
an
invitation
to
be
open
and
it's
and
then
you
kind
of
eliminate
this
thing.
Okay,
oh,
what's
that
platform?
Look
like
or
it's
like
kind
of
like
you,
expand
the
pie
by
saying
hey.
This
could
go
all
kinds
of
ways,
but
the
first
thing
is
we
got
to
share
like
we
got
to
share
our
designs,
to
the
point
that
we're
willing
to
teach
others
how
to
do
our
business,
because
I
think
I
think
the
word.
A
What
we're
fighting
here
with
with
the
open
source
economy
is
just
the
fact
that,
and
you
I
mean
I'm
sure,
you've
seen
this
I
see
it
everywhere.
Open
source
goes
all
fine
and
dandy
product
gets
good.
It
becomes
closed.
It's
all
about
that
kind
of
a
competitive
thing
where
people
are
not
sharing
the
best
practice,
and
you
cannot
learn
it
anywhere,
because
you
can't
learn
it
in
school.
You
got
to
learn
it
as
an
entrepreneur,
but
an
entrepreneurship.
Nobody
cooperates
and
of.
C
A
A
Okay,
let's
try
this
experiment:
let's
try
this
hackathon,
where
we
develop
a
product
and
get
enough
people
to
show
up
that,
we
actually
succeeded
in
a
really
visible
way:
BAM
like
okay,
here's
a
business
that
can
come
out
of
that
that,
literally
after
that
weekend,
probably
a
week
in
24
hours,
there's
something
we
have
and
that's
that's
like
a
really
clear
visible
example
like
wow.
You
guys
did
that
in
a
weekend,
yeah
that's
called
extreme
manufacturing
and
this
applies
to
any
single
product
and
it
can
happen
to
more
complex
products
and
stuff
like
that.
D
D
E
D
B
A
C
C
A
Well,
you
think
we
can
sell
the
idea
to
the
community
saying
so
so
it
takes
incentivizing
people
I.
Think.
The
problem
statement
in
front
of
us
is:
how
do
you
incentivize
people
to
do
this
and
to
show
up
but
I
think
a
little
experiment
like
that
is
worth
it?
Do
you
think
that
there's
enough
understand,
like
you
know,
people
understand
this
enough
right
now
that
we
could
collect
a
large
number
of
people
and
not
we
don't
have
to
be
rock
stars.
They
have
to
be
capable
performers,
yeah.
C
A
A
What
if
the
the
audience
is
people
who
are
like
like
us,
we
would
produce
an
important
product
if
we
had
a
design
for
it
for,
like
speaking
for
myself,
I
can
say:
well,
we
don't
have
a
good
design
like
that's
like.
If
we
had
a
printer,
we
could
replicate
we'd,
be
building
that
printer.
We
designed
a
printer
that
has
got
the
unique
part,
most
unique,
lowest
unique
part
count
in
the
world,
and
it's
got
a
few
features
that
nobody
else
has
like.
C
A
Like
that,
but
I'm
sure
there's
more
people
like
me
who
are
like
okay,
let
we're
producers,
you
know
we're
in
a
business
of
production
and
those
kinds
of
people
probably
be
open
to
it.
If
they
can
be
provided
with
a
great
design
like
the
incentive
might
be
we're
creating
some
product,
that's
better,
faster,
stronger
and
here's
a
way
to
develop
the
enterprise
side
like
all
those
assets
that
typically
the
geeks
suck
at
it.
You
know
we
suck
at
this
the
enterprise
side.
E
A
C
B
B
So
whether
you
go
like
to
sell
that,
because
to
me
that
the
most
obvious
like
to
see
in
what
open
source
ecology
is
doing
is
for
like
worst-case
scenario,
disaster
scenarios,
supply
chains,
breaking
down
important
manufacturers,
shutting
down
I,
don't
know
war,
just
for
whatever
reason
you
can't
get
the
normal
stuff
that
you
need.
That's
when
you're
gonna
wish.
You
had
open
hardware
of
all
these
things
right
instead
of
closed.
B
So
the
question
is
like
okay,
people
there's
either
people
who
have
a
lot
of
money
who
would
be
interested
in
that
or
people
who
have
no
money?
Who
would
be
like
well
I'll?
Take
it
better
than
nothing
and
then
you
know
maybe
that
the
stuff
gets
paid
for
for
them
by
a
grant
or
by
by
a
donor,
or
something
like
that.
But
I
feel
like
yeah.
B
There
needs
to
be
some
kind
of
like
spark
to
get
people
talking,
and
ideally
you
I
think
you
need
independent
manufacturers
and
independent
dealers
likely,
like
independent
repair
shop
type
of
folks,
who
would
like
to
repair
washing
machines
and
dryers
and
and
just
kind
of
like
Handy
fix-it
people.
Well.
A
There's
a
couple
of
people
working
on
there
already
have
like
a
laser
cutter,
3d
printers,
not
much
more,
though
maybe
a
router,
but
that
that
aspect
get
all
that
high
power
machinery,
the
high
performance,
CNC
Mills
and
torch
table,
possibly
a
robotic
arm
picking
place
other
things
and
okay
BAM.
You
can
you
now
you
can
do
manufacturing
of
all
kinds
of
things
from
3d
printers
to
electric
cars
and
tractors,
yeah.
C
B
E
B
Either
that
or
some
wealthy
person
who's
like
yeah
I
want
I
wanted
to
open
a
hardware
version
of
these
things
for
myself
sort
of
for
my
bunker.
But
that
doesn't
really
seem
this.
You
know
they
seem
as
appealing
I,
don't
think
it's
as
much
in
the
ethos
of
sort
of
what
we're
trying
to
do
here
so
I
feel
like
trying
finding
a
place.
That's
in
need
and
really
kind
of
doing,
a
swarm
around
that
solving
a
problem
for
them
around.
That
would.
B
But
I
mean
I
guarantee
you.
You
could
find
some
people
wealthier
people
who
would
pay
a
premium
for
that
kind
of
stuff,
maybe
in
exchange
not
only
for
the
equipment
for
themselves,
but
maybe
for
some
equity
in
whatever
this
new
enterprise
is
that
they
could.
Potentially,
you
know
get
that
over
time,
but
is
it
I
feel
like
you're,
more
likely
to
get
like
a
lot
of
people
to
volunteer?
If
it's
solving
a
specific
problem
that
people
can
rally
behind
yeah.
C
B
You
know
like
what
lulzbot
did
and
like
what
system76
is
doing,
and
you
just
you
have
a
long-term
goal
of
having
the
distributed
manufacturing,
but
you
just
start
it
first.
You
know
I
mean
like
eventually
when
these
brands
get
cloned,
you
know,
there's
a
bunch
of
factories,
you
know
cloning
Pololu
components,
it's
you
know,
that's
a
way
of
getting
it
out
there
and
they
built
it
up
originally,
and
then
you
just
get
copied
later
and
be
okay
with
that
yeah.
B
B
On
it,
I
mean
that
would
be
the
fastest
way.
If
you
wanted
to
do
it
really
fast,
that's
the
way
that,
like
wills,
bond
in
system76,
employ
Lou
and
Sparkfun
and
Adafruit.
You
know
it's
like:
let's
just
focus
on
a
niche
focus
on
a
customer
problem
and
built
a
business
around
it
and
then
we'll
be
more
open
as
we
go
and
share
certain
things
as
we
go
and
I
don't
know
what
all
their
long-term
goals
are,
but
the
best
I
really
I
think
what
you're
talking
about
doing
is
different
than
that.
What.
A
I'm
talking
about
is
collaboration
on
products
that
are
that
that
need
to
just
common
could
be
common
products
that
are
just
open
sourced
and
therefore
the
production
shifts
from
corporation
to
distribute
it.
So
I
kind
of
big
on
a
historic
transfer
of
wealth
from
a
few
to
the
many
I
mean
really
a
profound
shift.
That's
all
that's.
B
All
yeah
no
big
deal
well
like
so
that
happens
today
with
food
right.
How
like
there's
lots
of
farmers
all
over
the
world.
I
know
that
there's
corporate
farming,
but
like
in
general,
you
have
more
distributed
farming
and
food
production,
beer
brewing
and
liquor
distilling,
then
in
more
people,
are
participating
in
the
making
of
those
things
than
they're
making
other
things
right.
Well,.
C
A
B
E
D
A
Why?
Because
it's
10x
value
like
if
it
lasts
not
one
year
but
ten
years,
you
know
things
like
that.
I
think!
That's
like
I
thought
about
the
honess
said:
okay,
what's
it
what's
the
organic
equivalent
for
us
I
do
think,
that's
that's
actually
lifetime
design
and
then
you
can
modify
it
and
keep
it
along.
Keep
it
alive
as
long
as
you
like
multi-purpose,
yeah,.
C
A
That
that
applies
to
everything
with
my
experience,
I
think
that
does
happen.
That's
that's
why
you
gotta
have
that
continuous
development
aspect
to
this.
That's
what
I'm
saying
like
just
develop
a
product
and
over
time
it
just
keeps
raising
the
bar
for
the
whole
industry,
because
what's
gonna
happen,
is
the
open
source
versions
get
better
and
then
the
mainstream
industry
says
hey,
we'll
borrow
from
you
now,
because
you're,
better
yeah.
B
A
But
I
hope
everything
else
is
good
and
see.
If
we
can,
you
know
like,
as
we
go,
get
closer
to
the
PPE
production
stuff
like
we're
doing
a
little
bit
on
a
tech
development,
but
I
want
to
definitely
definitely
catch
up
with
you
before
the
September
things
see
if
we
can
collaborate
any
way
on
that,
like
once,
I
have
a
better
idea
and
a
date
and
stuff
like
that.
Yeah.