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From YouTube: KBE Insider Amsterdam - Catherine Paganini, Co-Chair for TAG Contributor Strategy at CNCF
Description
Catherine Pagnini, Head of Marketing at Buoyant, the creator of Linkerd, and Co-Chair for TAG Contributor Strategy and Business Value Subcommittee at CNCF, shares her expertise on community building in this interview with KBE Insider. Catherine explains how prioritizing end-users’ voices, non-technical and technical alike, has been her focus. Catherine also shares her thoughts on the challenges faced by maintainers and how communities can collaborate to save time and invest in future growth. Tune in to learn how to foster a successful, community-driven, and vendor-neutral ecosystem!
A
B
Yeah
sure,
well,
first
of
all,
thanks
for
having
me
and
so
yeah
I'm
Catherine
Paganini
I'm,
the
head
of
marketing
at
buoyant.
That's
the
creator
of
linker
d
and
yeah,
so
very
involved
in
the
Lincoln
Community,
but
I
also
do
a
lot
of
things
with
the
cncf
so
I'm,
the
co-chair
of
the
tag
contributor
strategy
and
the
business
value
subcommittee.
Oh.
A
B
Yeah,
so
basically
liquidy
is
a
service
mesh,
it's
actually
the
first
service
mesh
and
it's
the
when
our
team
actually
is
the
team
who
coins
that
term,
which
is
pretty
crazy,
and
it's
the
only
graduated
service,
mesh
and
kind
of
known
for
its
Simplicity
right
like
so
that
is
yeah
kind
of
what.
What
we're
trying
to
do
make
it
easier
for
people
to
adopt
a
service
mesh
which
provides
observability,
reliability
and
security
features
at
a
platform
level
right.
B
B
B
And
because
aunties
are
stories
they're,
so
much
more
powerful
right
because
it's
like
I
know,
vendors
are
always
biased
right,
like
even
if
you
believe
that
you
are
telling
the
truth,
which
we
all
are
right,
but
we
are
biased
right
because
that's
why
we
work
for
those
companies
right
and
then
having
end
users
who
are
actually
using
it
in
production
and
sharing
their
experience
with
peers.
I
think
that's
the
most
powerful.
B
B
A
B
A
A
A
B
B
Yeah
we're
thinking
about
it,
I
think
like
it
was
a
really
great
experience.
If
we
do
it
again
as
well,
we
would
love
to
have
like
also
like
a
very
big
end
user
Focus,
but
yeah
so
we'll
have
to
see
we'll
have
to
see
but
like
for
now,
I
think
like
if
the
cncf
is
happy
with
it,
and
so
like
probably,
but
it
is
also
like
a
lot
of
it's.
Of
course
it's
a
cncf
event,
but
it's
a
lot
of
work
on
our
end.
B
If
you
wanna,
if
you
want
like,
if
you
want
to
encourage
end
users,
just
because
you
have
to
find
them
right,
it's
like
vendors
are
always
happy
to
speak
about
what
they
do
right,
but
and
identifying
the
end
users
and
encouraging
them.
And
it's
like,
because
they're
busy
is
a
lot
of
work
so,
which
is
why,
like
like.
You
are
then
so
proud.
When
you.
A
A
B
A
B
B
B
Basically,
the
tech
contributor
strategy
is
that
tax
or
technical
Advisory
Group,
the
cncf
that
tries
to
help
projects
be
successful.
So
it's
like
more
geared
towards
helping
maintainers
project.
Maintainers
and
I
love
the
mission,
because,
basically,
what
we're
trying
to
achieve
is
to
create
like
a
cross-project
community.
A
B
We
always
talk
in
open
source
about
communities,
but
we
mostly
talk
about
our
own
communities
right,
like
yeah
and
I,
think
we
figured
that
out.
People
know
it's
important
right
like,
but
I,
don't
think
we
kind
of
have
really
done
a
good
job,
yet
to
kind
of
have
the
cross
project
Community
right,
because
it's
like
every
project
is,
has
going
yeah
and
it's
going
through
the
same
problems
right
like
in
every
problem
that
a
project
is
going
through.
Someone
else
has
already
gone
through
right.
B
A
lot
of
projects
trying
to
reinvent
the
wheel
each
time
right
and
there
is
no
need
for
that
right
and
our
like.
Basically,
the
cncf
is
our
common
home
right.
All
our
projects
live
there
and
it
provides
this
platform
for
us
to
connect
and
so
yeah
I
think
what
we
want
to
do
is
kind
of
build
that
across
project
community,
so
that
we
talk
with
each
other
exchange.
Ideas,
learn
from
one
another
and
then
yeah
just
make.
B
But
not
a
lot
of
people
know
about
it,
but
not
a
lot
of
containers
and
that's
the
other
challenge,
because
it's
like
maintainers
is
like
a
subgroup
within
our
community
right
right
and
like
reaching
them
is
not
that
easy
and
so
this
panel,
because
we
always
talk
about
the
resources
we
create
this
panel.
We
wanted
to
talk
about
what
we
get
out
of
that
right,
because
it's
a
lot
of
the
a
lot
of
times.
B
We
talk
about
contributing
and
people
think
about
contributing
as
like
giving,
and
it
is
giving
right
right,
but
it
you
get
actually
so
much
more
out
of
it
right
than
you
give
yeah.
And
so
we
wanted
to
make
a
little
twist
and
and
talk
about
like
really
like
us
and
how
it
has
benefited
benefited
us
and
our
careers
and.
A
A
B
Yeah,
but
it
is
sometimes
yeah.
Sometimes
it
is
like
I
feel,
like
people
like
maintainers
are
so
busy
that
sometimes
they
feel
it's
like.
They
don't
have
time
right
to
do.
An
initial
engage
in
an
additional
Community,
but
I
think
what
people
maybe
like
I,
don't
know
if
they
don't
realize,
but
it's
like,
if
I
think
you
end
up
saving
time
too
right
like,
for
instance,
if
you
need
need
to
know
about
something
right
like
or
when
I
joined
the
tag.
B
One
thing
that
I
need,
like
I,
had
just
doing
pretty
and
I
had
no
idea,
because
I
was
new
to
you
open
source,
how
how
communities
take
and
whatever
so
it
provides.
It
gives
you
the
chance
to
actually
talk
to
people
who
will
be
very
gracious
with
their
time.
So
I
I
interviewed
several
maintainers
who
took
I
think
a
whole
hour
to
talk
to
me
and
share
their
best
practices,
and
if
I
were
I,
couldn't
just
go
to
people
and
say,
like
hey,
I
want
to
learn
this
just
for
language.
B
A
B
B
A
A
So
yeah
I
think
it's
I
think
in
some
ways
it's
the
magic
of
Open
Source,
but
the
other
thing
I
was
going
to
say
was
that
one
of
the
things
that
it
takes
a
while
to
learn
I
think
is,
as
a
manager
right
is
how
to
delegate
right
and
how
you
know
and
how
to
teach
somebody
to
do
something
new,
even
though
it's
going
to
take
them
longer
to
do
it.
The
first
time
I
think
there's
a
lot
of
that
with
kind
of
the
contributor
world
as
well.
A
B
A
B
B
A
A
B
So
yeah
I'm
non-technical
right
and
so
when
I
so
2017
at
Joe
kubernetes
company
and
had
to
kind
of
wrap
my
hat
all
around
it,
which
was
really
really
difficult
because,
like
all
the
content
out,
there
is
written
for
a
technical
audience
and
it
starts
with
context
that
I
have
that
you
don't
have
if
you're,
not
technical.
So
it's
really
hard
right,
like
so
I
really
struggled
I
had
actually
that
he
really
I
actually
bought,
bought
a
introduction
to
computer
science
book
and
like
because
I
had
to
build
kind
of
like
that
that
the.
B
Actually
even
understand
what
what
people
are
talking
about
and
then
suddenly,
like
a
few
years
later,
like
people
from
my
network,
not
people
who
don't
necessarily
work
in
Cloud
native
started
to
ask
ask
me
so:
hey
my
company
is
doing
kubernetes
now.
Can
you
explain
that
to
me?
You
know
it
was
like.
Oh,
you
know
like.
There
are
a
lot
of
people
who
are
non-technical.
Who
who
need
to
know
about
this
and
we're
basically
the
same
boat
as
I
was
right
like
and
not.
B
Everyone
has
a
time
or
the
dedication
to
kind
of
go
through
and
like
really
kind
of
learn
it
right
and
so
I
in
between,
like
I
started.
Writing
articles
that
I
kind
of
afford
a
new
stack
like
really
basic
fundamentals,
fundamental
articles
and
and
got
really
really
good
feedback,
which
kind
of
showed
that
there
is
a
need
for
that
right,
yeah
and
at
some
point,
I
said
like
okay,
actually,
cncf
I
mean
it's
great
I'm,
really
grateful
for
the
new
stack
for
publishing
it
and
also
yeah
really
great
experience.
B
But
at
some
point
it
was
like
shouldn't.
It
seem
CFO
on
this
kind
of
content.
You
know
like
it's
like
they
have.
They
have
content
for
technical
people,
but
like
it's
really
important,
it's
an
important
part
of
their
mission
to
kind
of
help,
the
business
side
as
well
right
because
because
they
need
to
approve
all
these
projects
right.
B
So
if
you
had,
let's
see
sweet
needs
to
understand
the
basic
concepts
they
don't
need
to
code
and
stuff,
but
they
need
to
understand
what
cloud
native
is,
how
it
works
and
why
they
should
adopt
it
right,
because
otherwise,
how
can
I
even
have
these
conversations
with
engineering
right?
And
so
we
formed
the
business
value
subcommittee,
which
basically
focuses
on
trying
to
explain
these
Concepts
in
terms
that
that
yeah,
a
business
audience
understands,
but
also
making
it
easy
for
engineers
right
like.
A
A
A
mindset
shift
for
even
for
technical
people
and
I,
think
that
you
know,
like
you're
kind
of
mostly
focused
on
the
non-technical
people,
but
I
think
there
is
definitely
a
lot
to
be
learned
for
your
average
technical
person
to
try
to
wrap
their
head
around.
How
do
you
design
systems
that
run
in
this
kind
of
unusual?
You
know
model,
although
it's
getting
increasingly
unusual
or
increasingly.
B
A
B
You
want
oh
yeah,
so
so
so,
basically
like
so
we
we
form
the
business
value
supplementary
and
then
we
realized
okay.
If
we're
talking
about
these
things,
the
first
thing
we
need
to
do
is
explain
the
terms
right,
like
you
kind
of
just
start
like
so,
we
need
to
first
come
to
an
agreement.
What
are
how
do
we
talk
about
these
terms,
and
so
the
glossary
was
basically
so
it's
a
cloud
native
glossary,
it's
open
source.
Anyone
can
contribute
and
help
improve
it.
B
So
that's
the
idea
right
to
to
have
like
it's
Community
Driven.
So
one
thing
that's
important
is
that
is
Community
Driven,
it's
vendor
neutral
right
and
it's
a
living
document,
and
so
the
glossary
I
think
was
launched
a
year
now
ago
and,
as
I
mentioned,
tries
to
explain
these
Concepts
in.
In
simple
words,
we
try
to
stay
away
like
from
technical
terms,
whenever
possible,
using
examples.
People
can
relate
to
when
we're
talking
about
applications.
A
I
think
yeah
I
think
that's
the
Big
Challenge,
both
both
in
the
definitions
and
the
words
themselves.
Right
is,
you
know
our
our
industry.
You
know
I
say
this
kind
of
thing
a
lot,
but
our
industry
is
so
young
right.
You
know
I
I
kind
of
jokingly.
It's
like
medicine's
been
around
for
thousands
of
years,
so
we
have
a
pretty
good
idea
of
what
all
the
words
mean,
and
you
know
with
the
software
world.
A
But
you
know
the
collectively
agree
on
what
the
terms
mean,
which
I
think
is,
is
hugely
important,
important
and
really
difficult.
I
talk
about
it
with
my
students,
it's
like
you
know
if
you
walk
into
an
organization
and
they
say
PM
that
could
be
program,
manager,
project
manager
or
product
manager,
and
it
could
be
any
of
those
and
none
of
those
jobs
are
the
same,
but
they
will
all
have
used
the
acronym
meaning,
one
of
them.
A
B
B
B
You
have
to
have
like
at
least
10
terms
to
go,
live
and
that's
another
Italian
as
well
as
life.
So
because
that's
another
thing
like
our
like
in
our
world,
everything
is
written
in
English
like
most
of
it
and
like
we
were
just
talking
about
how
complex
Cloud
native
is
right,
and
so,
if
you're
trying
to
learn
it,
and
then
it's
in
a
foreign
language.
On
top
of
that
right,
it
makes
it
even
more
difficult.
A
B
And
then,
like
really
kind
of
having
content
in
different
languages
makes
it
much
more
accessible,
because
some
people
like
it
just
depends
on
which
some
countries
are
really
like,
like
people
or
Engineers,
most
Engineers
do
speak
very
well,
English
others
not
right.
It's
not
really
it's
not
in
some
countries.
It's
not
common.
B
You
know
to
to
have
like
good
like
be
proficient
in
in
English,
right
and-
and
you
cannot
ex
you
know
like
and
then
you're,
basically
excluding
all
these
people,
because
you're
not
giving
them
tools,
they
need
to
kind
of
learn
these
Concepts
right.
So
I
think,
like
the
localization
efforts
are
really
important
too
yeah.
A
A
B
A
You
know
it's
like
I
felt
a
you
know,
a
plug-in
for
vagrant
many
years
ago,
and
you
know,
and
people
started
using
it
right
and
like
I
was
so
excited
because
I
just
kind
of
built
it
you
know
to
solve
a
problem.
I
was
having
and
you
know,
but
then
people
started
using
it
and
then
I
didn't
really
need
it
anymore,
and
so
we
had
some
people
take
it
over
because
they
used
it
and
they
continued
to
use
it
and
I
was
just
I
was
so
excited.
You
know
completely
unexpected.