►
Description
Robert Skiff interviews Cryn Johannsen on her book
Solving the Student Loan Crisis: Dreams, Diplomas & A Lifetime Debt
http://www.amazon.com/Solving-Student-Loan-Crisis-Diplomas/dp/099654867X
--
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A
Hi,
this
is
Rob
skiff,
we're
here
interviewing
Syrian
Johansson,
with
her
new
book
on
solving
the
student
loan
crisis
dreams
diplomas
in
a
lifetime
of
debt.
There's
a
link
on
our
screen
that
you'll
see
to
go
to
that
to
go
to
the
amazon
com
website,
so
you
can
purchase
it
I've
known
syren,
for
that
you
know,
follow
to
work
for
about
two
years.
B
A
Sorry
corinth
right
arm
and
so
get
out
and
purchase
a
copy,
and
if
you
have
any
questions
after
this
interview,
you
can
send
them
to
me
at
questions
at
apano
com
on,
but
you
can
certainly
send
them
to
the
author
and
we'll
make
sure
they
get
transferred.
So
thanks
a
lot
for
coming
for
the
interview
for
allowing
us
to
talk.
Tell
us
a
little
bit
about
why
you
decided
to
write
this
book
and
what
your
background
is
for
people
who
don't
know
sure.
B
And
thanks
for
having
me
I
mean
my
story
is
there's
a
lot
of
background
to
it.
I
was
in
graduate
school,
I
have
multiple
degrees
and
at
one
point
I
was
working
on
my
PhD
in
history
and
a
lot
of
the
a
lot
of
the
conversation
revolved
around
student
loan
debt,
both
people
with
debt
in
graduate
school
and
then
also
undergraduates,
and
so
there
was
a
preoccupation
with
that.
But
too
fast
for
it.
I
I
took
a
leave
of
absence
for
my
PhD
program
in
2007
and
I
thought
at
that
point.
B
That
moving
into
publishing,
which
I
do
discuss
in
the
introduction,
was
a
good,
a
good
place
for
me,
and
so
that's
what
I
did
and
then
I
wound
up,
leaving
New,
England
and
moving
to
Washington
DC
and
at
the
time
I
was
married,
but
it
wasn't
a
fit.
You
know,
sometimes
things
that
you
think
are
originally
going
to
be
a
fit
professionally
or
not
a
fit,
and
so
I
I
did
end
up
leaving
that
position
after
it
was
over
a
year.
B
I
mean
it
was
a
great
great
publishing
company,
but
it
just
was
not
a
fit
for
me.
Professionally
and
at
the
same
time,
there
was
the
basically
the
the
great
recession,
which
really
was
a
depression
that
that
hit,
unfortunately,
at
the
time,
I
professionally
decided
to
leave
this
position
and
which
caused
tremendous
stress
on
my
marriage,
at
which
point
we
decided
to
leave
the
country
and,
of
course,
the
student
loans
were
a
big
part
of
the
stress
that
was
causing
friction
with
my
husband
at
the
time
and
between
the
two
of
us.
B
So
that's
when
I
wound
up
in
south
korea,
I
was
hired
to
teach
english
as
a
second
language,
basically
in
seoul
and
around
that
time,
I
launched
all
education
matters,
my
blog
and
you
know
initially,
as
you
can
probably
imagine
what
the
term
or
the
name
of
the
blog.
I
was
going
to
explore
things
related
to
all
education
matters,
specifically
with
regards
to
higher
education,
because
I
didn't
want
to
lose
sort
of
touch
with
my
academic
and
intellectual
interests
that
I
obviously
had
been
exploring
while
I
was
in
grad,
school
and
so
forth.
B
But
bigger
the
more
I
began
to
dig
into
the
topic.
Student
loans
became
a
focal
point
for
me
and
at
the
same
time,
there
was
a
lot
of
outrage
about
the
banks
being
bailed
out.
I
mean
this
was
public,
as
we
all
know
is.
We
were
called
that
history,
and
so
there
was
a
lot
of
this.
You
know
a
lot
of
people
talking
about
wolf.
The
banks
have
been
bailed
out.
Why
can't
you
bail
out
students
and
there
began?
B
You
know
there
were
movements,
especially
on
Facebook
and
so
forth,
and
this
is
this
preceded,
Occupy,
Wall
Street,
which
then,
of
course,
we
later
saw
an
amazing
group
that
shot
out
from
that
that
which
is
the
Occupy
student,
that
campaign
that
I
have
to
give
a
shout
out
to
them
because
they
referenced
a
lot
of
my
work,
acknowledging
me,
including
andrew
ross,
ooh.
It
recommends
my
book
calling
me
an
anti
debt
veteran,
which
was
much
appreciated,
but-
and
I
became
very
involved
in
this
issue
student
loan
debt
because
I
saw
it
as
a
total
injustice.
B
Obviously
I
am
also
a
student
debtor.
That's
part
of
my
story,
but
you
know
the
concept
of
higher
education
is
that
it's
access
to
a
better
life
in
America
I
mean
that's
the
whole
point
of
it,
and
it's
based
upon
America
her
attic
concept
and
especially
for
low-income
and
low-income
individuals
and
and
minorities.
This
is
a
way,
a
stepping
stone
out
of
poverty
and
out
of
less
advantageous
situations
in
the
United
States.
But
the
more
you
begin
to
put
the
pieces
together.
B
You
realize
that
it's
actually
further
entrapment
and
unfortunately
those
communities
are
most
hurt,
much
like
what
happened
with
the
banking
crisis
and
how
minorities
lost
homes
and
their
homes
were
literally
taken
from
them.
I
mean
there's
evidence
of
this
with
Goldman
Sachs,
and
it's
a
similar
story
that
you
see
outlined
that
I.
That
I
demonstrate
in
the
book
that
they
are
really
the
the
largest
swath
of
the
victims,
but
obviously
I
mean
it
goes
across
all
demographics,
whether
you're
white,
black,
Hispanic
etc.
But
it
is
indeed
a
sad
story
where
the
delete,
the
less
advantage.
A
You're,
you
know
pointing
out
the
2008
debt
crisis.
The
amount
of
money
received
by
the
banks
was
as
much
it
could
have
paid
off.
Actually
the
mortgages
of
her
people
in
the
United
States
hi,
given
that
level
of
them,
but
the
bank's
got
it
and
I'm,
not
all
the
bank's
paid
it
back.
So
the
you
know
what
you
really
have
in
you
know.
2008,
you
know.
A
I
was
also
involved
in
the
Occupy
movement
on
in
Vermont,
and
that
was
you
know,
a
real
catalyst
for
my
thinking
about
adjuncts
and
about
hi
red
to
and
accessibility.
You've
got
them
really
a
harvesting
of
people,
oh
and
a
brand
livelihoods
to
and
a
taking
of
the
people's
capital
and
put
it
in
into
the
financial
institutions.
A
A
B
B
Now
they
have
the
highest
levels
of
debt
and
I'm
sure
2017
will
beat
them
as
well,
so
you
can
continually
extract
from
people
and
then,
on
top
of
it,
you're
selling.
The
idea
that
well
in
order
to
get
ahead
and
to
get
jobs
and
whatever
sector
it
is,
you
need
to
be,
and
you
must
have
to
grease,
and
so
it's
it's
a
type
of
entrapment
and
then
then,
of
course,
you
have
this
ideology
here
of
personal
responsibility
and
the
whole
myth
of
individualism
which
I
I'm
not
even
going
to
go
into
deeply.
But
oh.
B
It
plays
a
big
role
because,
of
course,
all
the
push
back
in
the
criticism
of
my
work
and
and
trying
to
I
mean
this
is
really
systemic
abuse
and
there's
multiple
players,
as
I
I
I,
think
I
demonstrate
in
the
book
the
government,
the
student
lending
industry,
the
universities,
both
the
for
profits
and
the
nonprofit's
all
entangled
with
one
another.
It's
very
complex
I
mean
just
looking
at
one.
B
Institutions
alone
and
considering
their
roles
is
difficult
to
to
explain,
not
to
mention
all
three
of
them,
but
people
you
know,
love
to
throw
back.
Oh
well,
you
made
the
decision
to
take
out
the
dead.
It's
your
fault,
you
know,
pay
back
the
dead
and
you
know
the
blame
is
it.
The
blame
is
completely
misplaced.
Let's.
A
Blame
it's
blamed
the
victim
because
I
correct
you,
you
right,
you
know
you
do
a
great
job
of
showing
how
the
system
is
designed
actually
to
put
people
and
I'm
using
this
term,
specifically
in
bondage.
Okay
bondage
comes
from
the
term
bond
because
what
they're
doing
is
they're,
taking
all
these
loans,
as
you
know,
and
aggregating
them
together
and
then
selling
them
as
financial
instruments
to
other
institutions.
So
it's
literally
bondage
you're
being
turned
into
a
bond
and
you're
being
armed
and
you
can't
get
out
of
it.
A
It's
involuntary
taking
of
your
labor
forever
that
you
cannot
get
out
of
I
mean
right.
You
know
it's
it's
some!
It
is
dead
slavery
by
a
nicer,
kinder
gentler.
Well,
it's
not
that
gentle,
but
by
a
nicer,
maybe
phrase
or
a
different
phrase
than
the
same
types
of
slavery
that
it
has
existed
in
the
past.
What
do
you
think
about
I.
B
And
but
of
course
the
problem
is
with
that,
as
you're
saying
I
mean,
yes
seems
gentler
in
terms
of
the
punishments,
but
the
fact
of
the
matter
is
is
that
there
are
certain
professions
that,
if
you
default
on
your
loans,
you
can
lose
your
licensure
in
certain
fields.
You
know
you
run
great
risk
professionally.
I
mean
that
not
to
mention
you
know
the
way
in
which
destroys
your
credit,
how
it's
impossible
to
buy
homes,
because
you
know
your
debt-to-income
ratios.
You
know
for
many
people,
it's
pretty
outrageous,
even
just
going
for
a
four-year
degree.
B
A
C
A
The
land
owner
and
we
only
get
a
share
of
the
of
our
own
labor
anymore,
and
you
you
do
you
know
with
your
description
of
how
the
stresses
hit
your
own
marriage,
but
also
you
know,
I
was
blown
away
by
your
describing
the
human
impact
of
this
system
on
people,
and
you
want
to
just
talk
a
little
bit
about
that.
So
people
can
understand.
B
B
America
I
mean
it's
a
the
number
of
suicidal
people
that
reach
out
to
me
is
it's
difficult.
It
ebbs
and
flows,
but
luckily
I've
worked
with
some
of
them
and
they've
gotten
into
better
places,
but
the
psychological
toll
just
cannot
be
emphasized
enough
and
then
you
consider
the
the
way
that
affects
you
know
the
interpersonal
relationships
that
these
individuals
have
with.
B
You
know:
spouses
and
family
and
their
friends,
and
then
you
consider
that
you
know
you
extrapolate
that
and
what
you
know:
how
are
they
performing
at
their
job
and
what
do
they
like
in
their
communities
that
they're,
if
they're
suffering
it
to
that
degree?
And
it's
it's
sad
I
mean
it's
very,
very
sad
to
take
that
into
account.
So.
A
Prosperity,
if
you
will
or
the
illusion
of
them,
hey
I
got
it.
I
got
a
now.
I
have
an
advanced
degree
I'm
supposed
to
be
at
this
particular
place,
and
then
on
the
the
debt
and
the
financial
struggles
associated
with
that
you
know,
you
document
really
really
well
the
arm
the
depression,
the
anxiety
and
the
pain
that
people
feel
when
they
are
underwater
and
the
the
great
crime
is
that
these
people
didn't
know
what
they
were
getting
into
right.
C
B
A
B
They're
leveraging
their
futures
in
ways
that
I
think
they
and
I
know
I
can
speak
and
personally
I
didn't
realize
you
can't
you
just
can't
project.
You
know
into
you
when
you're,
21
or
22
what
what
the
ramifications
are
and
in
that
that
doesn't
even
take
into
account
I
mean
knock
on
what
I
have
not
had
severe
health
problems
or
things
like
that.
B
I
mean
I've
talked
with
people
who
have
been
in
one
woman
in
particular
with
him
it
was
a
mother,
I
wrote
about
her
I
think
it
was
for
USA
Today,
but
her
daughter
was
in
a
pretty
cataclysmic
wreck.
I
think
she
became
a
quadriplegic.
If
memory
serves
me,
but
in
the
very
least
she
was
paralyzed
in
her
legs
and
on
the
parents
were
fighting
with
the
private
private
lender
to
have
the
alone
forgiven
and
it
just
the
the
amount
of
you
know,
sort
of
financial
chaos.
B
This
had
created
for
the
the
parents
was
just
tremendous
and
the
mother
was
a
nurse
and
she
had
to
quit.
Her
basically
become
a
full-time
caretaker
for
the
daughter
who
was
completely
incapacitated
from
this
from
this
accident.
So
those
are
not
things
that
you
consider
when
you're
you
know
graduating
and
you're
you're.
Obviously
your
future
is
bright,
I
mean
that's
the
way
human
beings
tend
to
be
right.
B
You're,
not
thinking
that
oh,
my
gosh
I
could
maybe
get
in
a
terrible
car
wreck
or
I
could
get
cancer
or
you
know
my
marriage
could
fall
apart
and
then
I'm
I
have
to
deal
with
the
the
financial.
You
know
the
financial
implications
of
that,
for
example,
those
are
just
a
few
to
sort
of
things
that
you
don't
you're,
not
considering
when
you're
22
and
you.
C
B
A
A
So
at
the
you
know,
when
that
recession
and
the
gulf
war
started
and
then
did
I,
you
know
got
a
job
in
Ecuador
for
two
years
and
while
I
was
there,
I
started
to
apply
to
graduate
school
with
the
idea
that
hey
I'm,
going
to
go
back
and
get
a
degree
in
and
I
was
looking
at
programs
with
the
idea
that
I
was
going
to
become
a
tenured
professor,
and
so
when
so
I
applied
to
all
these
anthropology
programs
and
I
didn't
get
in.
But
I
then
got
this
letter.
A
Okay
from
the
University
of
Chicago,
saying,
hey,
you've
been
admitted
to
the
Masters
of
Arts
program
in
the
social
sciences
and
sort
of
like
the
notion
was
that
this
was
the
first
step,
okay
or
a
different
way
to
get
into
that
arm
into
that
field
and
and
lots
of
programs.
You
just
don't
think
about
the
amount
of
money
it
costs,
and
you
also
the
schools.
A
Don't
really
tell
you
or
didn't
in
1990
in
the
90s
and
I
know
they're
not
doing
it
now
they
don't
really
tell
you
about
or
educate
you
about
what
you're
going
to
have
to
pay
over
the
course
of
the
loan.
They
don't
educate
you
about
what
are
your
real
job
prospects
based
on
your
degree?
It's
all
it's
almost
as
if
you
know
again,
they're
taking
these
students
getting
them
in
debt,
feeding
the
cyst,
feeding
the
machine
of
the
institutions,
but
also
in
you
know
your
book.
A
You
really
make
clear
that
we're
also
feeding
the
budgets
of
the
of
different
agencies
in
the
United
States
and
in
the
government.
You
know
the
department
of
bed
and,
of
course,
all
sallie
mae
and
all
those
different
quasi
government
entities
that
are
making
billions
off
of
the
student
loan
debt,
whether
it's
servicing
it,
whether
it's
even
going
out
and
finding
people
who
are
behind
payments
and
making
money
from
that.
You
know
tax
farming,
you
know
you,
you
really
make
it
clear.
A
Can
you
talk
a
little
bit
about
that
and,
as
you
were
doing
the
research,
what
was
the
thing
that
was
most
shocking
to
you
about
sort
of
about?
You
know
what
was
happening
or
is
probably
right
now
you
you're
not
really
shocked
about.
You
know
what
was
the
most
disillusioning
moment
that
you
had
well,
you
were
like
oh.
B
B
B
That
was
sort
of
the
in
relation
to
the
question
about
what
I
found
was
shocking
and
I
was
referencing
that
case
with
dr.
John
over.
It
was
a
researcher
in
the
Department
of
Education,
and
you
know
he's
sort
of
he
he's
an
example
of
a
bureaucrat
who
did
the
right
thing
and
he
continues
to
do
right.
Things
he's
in
litigation
and
and
he's
trying
to
his
the
cases
shed
light
on
the
wrongdoings
of
the
of
the
industry
and
the
biggest
players,
and
you
know
he.
B
Of
course,
the
response
to
him
was
terrible,
but
that's
not
surprising,
but
you
know
on
a
good
note
as
a
bureaucrat
you
want
bureaucrats
like
that
to
do
that.
He
did
the
right
thing.
He
was
doing
his
job
the
right
way
and
unfortunately
it
was
obviously
met
with
a
terrible
response,
but
he
then
followed
through
with
it,
which
I
think
is
it
highly
admirable.
B
But
on
top
of
it
there
are
new
people
in
the
department,
a
man
from
the
Consumer
Financial
Protection
Bureau,
which
I
I
do
think
as
a
promising
new
Bureau
that
was
created
by
elizabeth
war
and
it's
unfortunate
that
she
didn't
head
it,
but
they
they
have
done
tremendous
work
to
project
and
to
investigate
wrongdoing,
specifically
with
private
loans
and
there's
a
newcomer
at
the
department
department
of
education
that
had
been
at
the
at
the
the
bureau.
He
just
came
on
board
akron.
A
B
A
Mean
there
there
can
be,
you
know
a
handful
they're,
always
a
handful,
or
maybe
it's
a
large
number.
Maybe
it's
let's
say
it's
even
fifty
percent
of
the
people
do
the
right
thing
in
terms
of
these
large
bureaucracies,
but
the
system
seems
set
up
to
arm
for
the
creation
of
debt
and
the
harvesting
out
harvesting
in
the
exploitation
of
it
absolutely,
and
so
you
know
what
sort
of
you
know
you
touch
on
this.
What
what
sort
of
your
sense
of
is
the
system
going
to
reform
itself
or
is
it
going
to
have
to
you
know?
A
Is
there
going
to
be
a
major
upheaval
and,
and
you
know
and
collapse
of
high
red
for
for
things
to
get
better?
What's
your
what's
sort
of
your
take,
I
mean
in
the
last
chapter
of
the
book.
You
know
you
you
list
out
what
needs
to
happen
in
terms
of
you
know,
recommendations
that
you've
got
to
deal
with
this,
a
debt
jubilee
which
I
should.
A
Know
that
the
dutch,
you
believe
is
going
to
happen
one
way
or
the
other
right,
because
you
know
people
just
can't
pay
it,
and
unless
they're
going
to
throw
us
all
in
jail
or
take
everything,
and
then
people
will
come
out
with
pitchforks
on
and
say
enough
is
enough,
but
one
of
the
recommendations
was
free
public
universities.
Do
you
think
that
you
know
it's
not
only
the
government
and
the
loans
that
are
creating
the
system?
Okay,
this
exploitation.
A
It's
also
the
universities
themselves,
okay,
they're
making
a
lot
of,
and
especially
you
know,
senior
administrators
and
tenured
senior
tenured
faculty
are
really
benefiting
from
this
system.
Do
you
think
that
if
we
were
to
even
to
subsidize
that
that
it
would
sure
it
wouldn't
fall
on
the
students,
because
it
would
be
free?
But
do
you
think
it's
going
to
have
a
larger
impact
on
making
things
more,
affordable
and
more
accessible
for
people?
Well,.
B
Don't
because
I,
don't
think
institutionally
you're
just
supposed
to
throw
the
baby
out
with
the
bathwater
I,
don't
believe
in
just
a
total
abandonment
of
institutions
by
the
way.
But
I
do
think
that
it's
I
think
to
answer
your
question
about
solutions
and
obviously
I
offer
a
set
of
solutions.
But
if
you're
looking
at
it
from
another
perspective,
I
think
it's
twofold.
I
mean
its
internal
and
its
external
and
I.
B
Think
that's
why
I
q
pi
wall
stree
was
such
a
beautiful
expression
of
that
because
that's
from
the
ground
up
and
it
was
truly
collective
and
it's
something
that
you
don't
see
her
very
often
you
see
this
in
other
parts
of
the
of
the
world.
Much
more
so
I
mean
there.
You
know
whenever
there's
threats
of
taking
things
away,
for
example
in
Europe
or
France,
you
know
I
mean
they.
Okay,.
C
B
You
know
other
supporters
swarming
the
the
streets
it
was
incredible
and
and
that
bit
but
occupy
was
an
example.
That
I
mean
that's
spread
like
wildfire
across
the
country
and
but
I.
Don't
think
that,
just
because
those
campsites
are
gone
and
the
the
actual
physical
spaces
have
been
cleaned
up
and
there
they've
disappeared.
B
A
He
and
he
and
Bernie,
you
know
it's
interesting
that
you're
an
establishment.
You
know
when
I
look
at
when
I
look
at
the
left
and
the
right
the
the
power
is
that
is
coming
from
the
two
sides
who
you
can't
stand
the
establishment
today
and
code
I
want
to
go
back
to
your
comment
about
you
know:
I,
don't
I
agree
with
you
that
you
know
we
need
institutions.
We
just
need
very
different
kinds
of
institutions
than
what
we've
got
right
now
arm
in
charge
of
well
offering
education
in
different
ways.
A
You
know
that's
not
too,
while
I'm
going
to
plug
a
player,
know
a
little
bit.
You
know
trying
to
do
something
where
faculty
own
their
content
and
have
a
lot
more
control
and
students
have
a
lot
more
choice.
We
don't
necessarily
have
that
and
that's
helping
to
feed
some
of
these.
You
know
really,
and
the
lack
of
transparency
about
the
debt
and
cost
is
really
feeding
this
kind
of
abuse.
That's
happening
within
the
system,
but
yeah.
A
You
know
where
we
can't
live
in
a
state
of
anarchy
on
and
we're
going
to
need
institutions,
but
I'm,
not
I,
really
don't
for
me
I.
Would
you
know
the
credibility
of
higher
ed
is
now
really
in
question
the
credibility
of
our
current
institutions
and
Trump
Trump
supporters
and
Bernie
supporters.
They
can't
stand
the
current
establishment
and,
to
be
honest,
that
now
establishment
has
you
know,
has
run
us
into
the
ground.
You
know
darien,
connecticut
and
and
new
york,
city
and
greenwich
and
though
the
west
coast
I
mean
it's
crazy.
B
And
I
I
guess
the
hope
is-
is
that
it
will
be
bloodless,
but
one
can
only
one
can
only
wait
and
see
how
it
unfolds,
because
the
the
hope
is
I'm
excited
as
well
that
it
but
I
do
hope
that
it's
something
that
is
peaceful.
But
we
just
have
to
see,
as
you
know,
the
months
and
leading
up
to
the
election,
what
what
what
the
outcome
will
be,
because,
obviously,
what
Trump
is
whipping
up
is
quite
violent.
As
we
now
yep.
C
B
A
Bernie
can
take
the
nomination
away
from
Clinton
in
the
current
establishment.
Then
I
think
it's
you
know
it's
Bernie
versus
Trump
and
Bernie
wins,
because
people
will
listen
to
the
better
angels
of
our
nature,
I
think.
But
if
it's
Trump
versus
Clinton,
it's
going
to
be
a
really
crazy.
It's
going
to
be
a
really
crazy
fall
and
it's
going
to
be
a
really
crazy
election
season.
No
matter
who
becomes
president
I'd
rather
see
Bernie.
It.
A
A
You
know,
what's
sort
of
what's
the
next
project
you're
working
on
in
terms
of
you
know
another
book
or
the
project
with
the
student
loan
debt
are,
you
are
you
on?
Do
you
see
among
students
the
beginnings
of
a
movement
like
you
know,
Occupy
Wall
Street,
that's
a
little
bit
more
militant,
it
seems.
Campuses
have
been
dominated
by
the
black
lives
matter.
A
B
And
and
so
that
I
so
that
people
can
come
to
that
place
and
read
about
all
kinds
of
matters,
because
I
obviously
try
to
follow
all
sorts
of
stories
related
to
student
loans,
student
loan,
debt
default,
etc
as
closely
as
possible
and
provide
analysis.
And,
oh
you
know,
this
story
is
going
on
over
here,
this
sort
of
legislations
being
introduced
and
and
really
trying
to
create
again
a
sort
of
a
daily.
B
You
know
possible,
update,
updates
on
on
things
related
to
student
loan,
debt
and
being
that
resource
like
it
had
been
before
so
I'm
building
up
that
readership
again
because,
of
course,
with
a
blog,
as
you
know,
it
kind
of
it
kind
of
go
away.
I've
here,
if
you're
not
up
on
it.
At
least
you
know
once
or
twice
a
week,
which
is
completely
understandable.
B
So
there's
that
and
I
mean
I
I
also
do
things
kind
of
under
the
radar
that
people
aren't
even
aware
up
to
help
individual
debtors
and
in
getting
making
them
aware
of
the
way,
for
instance,
legal
aid
resources,
because
there's
been
an
uptick
in
after
debtors
and
I'm
getting
I've
been
kind
of
overwhelmed
with
debtors
reaching
out
to
me
about
being
served
papers
and
not
knowing
how
to
how
to
respond
to
these
things,
and
so
I'm
I'm.
Not
an
attorney
of
course.
I'm.
B
An
activist
and
advocate
on
behalf
of
student
loan
deters
but
I
definitely
have
connections
and
knowledge
of
legal
aid
resources
and
trying
to
get
them
in
touch
with
the
right
types
of
organizations
that
can
assist
them.
When
it
comes
to
very
serious
matters
where,
if
they
don't
show
up
to
court,
they
will
be
arrested.
B
That's
anecdotal,
but
I
also
do
note
that,
like
in
the
state
of
Florida,
for
instance,
there
was
one
reporter
who
noted
the
the
seizure
and
threats
of
taking
property
by
the
federal
government
is.
There's
been
a
significant
increase
in
this,
so
I
think
well.
This
will
be
something
that
I
will
be
doing
more
of,
which
is
all,
of
course,
pro
bono
I
mean
I,
don't
get
anything
for
for
doing
any
of
this
work.
I
have
I,
actually
most
people
to
know
I
have
a
full-time
job.
It's
not
in
any
way
related
to
student
loan
debt.
B
This
is
me.
This
work
is
all
of
service
to
the
debtor
community.
It's
sort
of
my
way
of
giving
back
to
the
community.
So
that's
sort
of
to
answer.
Your
first
question:
that's
that's.
The
initial
plans
is
to
promote
the
book
into
and
live
in
matters
again,
but
to
answer
the
second
question
in
terms
of
movements,
I
mean
I've.
B
Already
one
reader
wrote
to
me
and
said
that
he
that
my
book
and
my
personal
story
has
helps
energized
him
and
helped
him
get
through
the
shame
that
he
has
about
his
own
debt
and
he
wants
to
get
involved
and
become,
as
he
wants
to
become
a
student
loan
activist
and
and
he's
working
on
something
creatively,
which
I
think
is
amazing
and
he
wants
to.
He
said
by
hook
or
crook,
get
it
published
and
he
wants
to
become
more
involved.
B
That's
really
what
I
I
push
for
in
that
my
book
is
that
you,
you
yourself,
take
the
reins
and
start
getting
involved.
You
know
in
your
communities.
You
start
talking
openly
about
the
debt
that
you
have,
because
the
first
step
of
the
the
of
this
issue
is
overcoming
your
own.
Shame
which
I
I
began
realizing
when
I
first
started
talking
about
this
almost
a
decade
ago
was
my
friends
have
debt,
oh
my
god
and
family
members.
Are
you
know?
B
Whatever
that
people
start
sitting
down
at
the
dinner
table-
and
they
start
admitting
to
each
other,
if
they're
out
having
drinks
or
they're
out
on
a
walk
with
a
friend
start
talking
about
the
student
loan
debt,
you
have
because
you're
not
alone
I
mean
that's
the
thing
that
we
so
many
of
us
I
know
feel
isolated
with
the
debt.
It's
very
isolating
it's
a
demising
and
it's
been
done.
It's
been
done
that
way,
purposefully,
I,
think
yep.
A
B
So
I
think
that
there's
a
that's
one
of
the
big
pieces
that
I
I
hope
people
will
overcome
and
begin
working
on
it
and
and
and
in
taking
taking
it
up
as
their
own
and
and
seeing
what
comes
of
it.
I
mean
Occupy.
Wall
Street
was
a
great
example
that,
and
they
did
amazing
work
on
it,
but
I
will
tell
use
well
black
lives
matter.
Part
of
their
platform
is
connected
to
higher
education
and
having
good
access
to
education.
B
This
is
a
big
piece
of
what
they're,
also
working
on
that
a
lot
of
people
aren't
familiar
with
because
of
course,
naturally,
a
big
focus
of
their
work,
as
it
should
be,
is
the
fact
that
black
lives.
Don't
matter
is
his
other
lives.
That's
the
point
of
it
because
they're
being
gunned
down
in
cold
blood,
but
they
have
done
a
superb
job
of
becoming
part
of
the
mainstream.
B
But
there
are
subgroups
to
it
I'm,
aware
of
that
that
they
have
demands,
and
one
of
which
is
most
certainly
connected
to
higher
education
and
not
not
just
specifically
related
to
issues
around
freedom
of
speech
and
so
forth,
but
also
access
to
higher
education
and
what
that
means
in
terms
of
investing
in
their
communities.
Investing.
A
In
the
night
people-
and
that's
that's
a
critically
important
I'm
issue-
that's
great
it
from.
If
you
could
send
me.
Some
links
to
those
particular
groups
will
post
them
on
right
after
or
post
them,
underneath
that
you're
when
you're
talking,
because
we
have
to
connect
people
so
that
there
can
be
better
resistance
to
what's
going
on
and
and
change
in
terms
of
of
the
current
system
and
the
current
student
loan
structure,
so
that
we
can
address
this
issue
because
it's
costing
too
many
lives
in
creating
two.
B
Obviously
agree,
and
on
that
note
one
of
the
I
want
people
to
be
aware
of
an
organization.
That's
based
in
Boston
called
the
National
Consumer
Law
Center
and
CLC
org,
and
they
they
are.
They
are
a
great
resource
in
terms
of
them
information
related
to
loans
and
ramifications.
They
also
work
with
the
Department
of
Education
trying
to
push
for
change
policy
wise,
which
I
I
do
note,
also
in
my
books.
C
A
Listen.
Thank
you
very
much
for
your
time.
That's
a
good
note
to
end.
Please
buy
this
book.
Okay,
it's
really
really
important.
It's
probably
you
know.
Like
I
said
at
the
beginning,
it's
one
of
the
most
important
books
on
higher
education
that
you're
going
to
read
this
year,
and
it's
a
very
big
issue
that
and
along
with
exploitation
of
adjuncts
of
adjunct
faculty
is,
are
the
two
critical
components
in
higher
ed
that
are
making
it
less
than
what
it
could
be,
and
so
we
need
to
change
higher
education
from
the
ground
up.
A
A
Yeah
great,
so
thank
you
very
much
for
tuning
in
and
remember
to
tune
in
next
week
for
another
higher
education
revolution
me.
I
had
another
really
interesting
conversation
with
someone
who
just
handles
financial
aid,
because
one
of
the
things
that
I've
been
doing
is
taking
a
look
at
you
know:
student
loan
debt
in
some
relationship
to
financial
aid
and
how
financially
gets
calculated.
Okay,
the
calculations
are
pretty
straightforward
and,
to
be
perfectly
honest,
they're
they're,
quite
fair
in
terms
of
they
look
at
in
the
US.
The
income
levels
of
the
parents.
C
Inspired
disposition
or
perspective
on
what
learning
means
for
anyone
I
feel
like.
We
can
very
very
quickly
change
the
discussion
on
how
do
we
fund?
How
do
we
find
that
the
the
next
trillion
dollars
of
funding
for
for
the
next
generation
of
higher
learning,
and
how
do
we
inspire
them
to
sort
of
create
their
learning
for
themselves?.