►
Description
Dougald Hine is a British author, editor and social entrepreneur. He co-founded School of Everything and The Dark Mountain Project, of which he is Director at Large. In 2011, he was named one of Britain's 50 top radicals by NESTA.
Watch the Higher Education Revolution Podcast here: https://youtu.be/Bb6shkyY_Wo
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A
Skiff
with
a
player,
no,
this
is
our
section
where
we're
interviewing
a
education
thought
leader
and
revolutionary
in
this
case,
ando
gold,
hi,
I've,
known
him
off
and
on
through
the
internet
for
about
two
or
three
years,
and
what
we're
going
to
be
discussing
today
is
issues
in
higher
education
in
Europe,
a
lot
of
his
projects
that
he's
been
working
on
and
also
ways
in
which
people
are
creating
new
forms
of
exchange
in
education,
social
and
social
spheres
and
culture.
So
to
go
thanks
a
lot
for
joining
us
today.
A
You
are
worth
recording
this
during
your
son's
nap
time,
yeah,
which
was
exactly
and
we'll
talk
a
little
bit
about
about
fatherhood
and
all
of
that
in
a
second,
so
I
want
to
just
touch
base
on
a
few
of
the
projects
that
you've
been
working
on
and
are
working
on.
One
is
dark:
Mountain
net.
It's
a
really
interesting.
If
you
go
dark,
slash
mountain
net,
it's
a
project
devoted
to
talking
about
technology,
social,
ecological
and
cultural
collapse.
A
B
A
sense
that
everything
seemed
to
get
framed
in
terms
of
problems
and
solutions,
and
sometimes
what
you're
dealing
with
isn't
really
a
problem,
because
a
problem
is
something
that
has
a
solution
and
you
find
that
solution
and
things
go
back
to
normal
and
we
both
arrived
at
this
sense
that
actually,
what
we're
facing
today
in
a
lot
of
areas
of
our
lives
and
our
society,
is
it
more
like
a
predicament?
A
predicament
is
something
that
they're
into
solution
to
it.
There
isn't
a
fix
to.
B
B
The
realization
that
the
whole
story
of
progress
and
economic
development
and
petrol
growth
that
we
have
kind
of
grown
up
with
as
the
background
to
our
lives,
that
that
is
in
collision
with
ecological
realities
that
are
fundamental
to
what
it
means
to
be
a
living
creature
in
a
living
earth
and
also
some
of
the
cultural
realities
of
what
it
might
mean
to
live
well
and
make
the
best
of
our
time
together.
And
so
we
wrote
this
manifesto
called
uncivilized
ation,
which
was
setting
out
this
kind
of
fairly
dark
perspective.
B
Saying
we
need
to
stop
talking
as
if
there
is
a
set
of
solutions
that
we
all
just
need
to
get
behind
and
make
happen.
We
need
to
be
able
to
face
our
uncertainties
now
doubts
and
our
fears
and
the
things
that
we're
not
going
to
be
able
to
fix,
and
but
the
sort
of
next
to
last
line
of
the
manifesto
is
the
end
of
the
world.
B
As
we
know,
it
is
not
the
end
of
the
world
full,
stop
and
I
guess
in
terms
of
our
conversation
about
education
and
the
institutions
and
spaces
in
which
learning
happens.
To
me
that
same
statement
has
been
a
kind
of
principal
running
through
the
different
projects
that
I'd
be
part
of
that.
It's
really
important
to
be
able
to
tell
the
difference
between
the
things.
C
A
It
also
means
you
know,
maybe
changing
from
you,
know
industrial
food
systems
to
more
local
food
systems
or
also
changing
the
way
we
think
of
work,
because
when
I
looked
at
you
know
when
I
you
know
it's
been
about
a
year
and
a
half
or
so
since
we've
talked
you
know,
I
looked
at
the
absolute,
you
know,
you've
done
a
lot
of
writing.
You've
done
a
lot
of
different
work
in
all
kinds
of
spheres.
B
I'm,
okay,
one
of
the
things
you
moving
countries
is
a
really
humbling
experience
in
lots
of
ways
because
it
really
shakes
the
things
you
have
taken
for
granted
and
one
of
the
points
where
I
began
to
realize
that
after
four
years
living
here
in
Sweden,
I
am
starting
to
go.
Nate.
It
in
some
sense
is
when
I
was
talking
to
friends
back
home
and
saying
oh
yeah.
Well,
basically
from
the
beginning
of
May,
I'm
kind
of
going
to
be
out
of
the
picture,
cuz
I'm
going
to
be
at
home.
B
Looking
after
my
son
for
four
months
until
he
starts
daycare
at
the
end
of
the
summer,
and
people
would
say
wow,
that's
a
really
big
decision
in
waking
and
I
realize
you
know
I'm
clearly
going
native
here,
because
I've
got
used
to
the
idea
that
at
least
in
the
parts
of
society
that
I
spend
most
of
my
time
in
its
almost
taken
for
granted.
Now
in
Sweden
that
as
a
dad,
you
will
take
a
serious
chunk
of
time
out
from
whatever
your
normal
day.
B
A
Because,
because
what
you're
doing
right
now,
while
is
still
rare
and
sort
of
you
know
the
in
lots
of
other
parts
of
Europe
and
especially
in
you
know,
North
America,
that
I
had
are
still
very
much
a
bias
against
men.
Armed
taking
that
really
big
active
role,
especially
with
a
newborn
yeah
that
you
know
I,
remember
you
know
it's
just
it's
weird.
It
places
you
out
of
context
from
what
most
of
the
men
and
what
most
of
your
friends
are
doing.
A
So
that's
great
that
you
know
you
that
there's
that
cultural
and
social
system,
although
I
suspect
you
probably
would
have
done
that
anyway,
because
the
work
that
you're
doing
and
what
you've
done
has
always
been
about
reconfiguring
and
questioning
life
and
questioning
in
ways
people
are
living
so
to
go
back
on.
You
know
to
focus
in
a
little
bit
on
the
education.
What
is
sort
of
your
you
know
your
your
at
the
Swedish
national
theatre,
but
you're
still
involved,
and
you
know,
keeping
connection
into
the
academic
world,
you're,
still
writing
and
producing.
A
Okay,
what's
sort
of
your
take
on
the
on
how
people
are
reacting
both
to
changes
in
higher
edinger
appears
a
really
a
social,
economic
and
political
collapse
of
the
old
order,
that's
happening
both
in
Europe
and
the
states
and
in
other
places
over
the
world
too.
What's
sort
of
your
take
on
what
what
people
are
sort
of
thinking
about
and
and
how
are
they?
You
know
reconfiguring
their
their
lives
to
deal
with
this
collapse.
Yeah.
B
Well,
I
mean
the
strangeness
of
the
times
that
we're
living
in
is
that
it's
still
the
case
in
a
lot
of
places
that
how
much
of
yeah
what
you're
calling
rightly
this
collapse.
How
much
of
that
collapse
is
visible
depends
so
much
on
who
you
are
and
where
you
are
within
a
society
and
I
think
that,
obviously,
the
events
that
we've
seen
playing
out
in
politics
in
the
u.s.
B
in
the
last
year
represent
a
huge
rupture
of
the
the
kind
of
the
energy
of
the
anger
and
disillusionment
and
disorientation
bubbling
up
through
a
society
to
the
point.
Where
know,
maybe
the
twenty
percent
of
people
at
the
top
of
the
society,
if
not
the
one
percent
who
for
them
life,
is
working
pretty
well,
it
begins
to
interrupt
the
flow
of
their
lives
because
they
can't
make
sense
of
what's
going
on
in
a
political
system
which
has
always
been
full
of
people
like
them
and
yeah.
A
How
it's
happening
both
on
the
in
the
state,
so
it's
happening
both
on
the
left
and
the
right
like
when
I
look
at
you
know:
Bernie
should
be
armed.
You
know
my
senator.
He
actually
one
time
stepped
on
Austin
when
he
was
a
newborn
at
an
event,
but
that's
another
story
which
is
really
funny
so
there's
Bernie
on
the
Left,
who
is
you,
know
absolutely
trash
and
destroyed
the
establishment
on
the
Democratic
establishment
represented
by
Hillary
Clinton
in
the
Clinton
Foundation.
Then
you
have
Donald
Trump
on
the
right.
A
B
C
B
These
lessons
in
cross
helpful
a
web
so
yeah
they
are
barren,
like
twenty-eight
twenty-nine
percent
of
the
vote.
They
are
the
second
biggest
party
in
the
Italian
parliament
and
in
Iceland.
The
pirate
party
are
on
Yelp
three
percent
in
the
polls.
They
will
probably
be
the
government
of
Iceland
within
a
year
and
these
parties,
some
of
them,
don't
even
map
onto
the
old
scale
of
left
to
right.
So
then
I
we're
talking
education.
Well,
what
does
this
have
to
do
with
the
state
of
our
institutions
and
education
systems?
B
Well
part
of
what's
going
on
in
terms
of
these
political
ruptures?
Is
you
had
this
moment
of
2008
this
crisis,
where,
for
a
few
months
it
looked
like
the
whole
of
the
global
financial
system
might
unravel
to
the
point
where
the
cash
machines
didn't
work?
Where
is
a
story
of
a
banker
from
the
City
of
London,
who
goes
home
on
a
Friday
night
that
autumn
and
buys
a
field
full
of
sheep
from
the
farmer
next
door
to
his
house
in
the
country?
B
B
B
Is
coming,
the
recovery
is
happening,
but
for
more
and
more
people,
it
doesn't
make
sense
anymore.
Now,
if
we
want
to
talk
about
universities
and
education
systems,
what
happened
in
the
period
prior
to
2008?
And
if
you
want
to
put
a
start
date
on
that
period,
then
you
have
to
be
looking
back
to
kind
of
the
the
70s
the
period
where
you
have
this
kind
of
turmoil
of
the
oil
crisis.
You
had
the
kind
of
the
unraveling
to
a
greater
or
lesser
extent
of
a
post-war
model
in
which
you
had
had
rising
prosperity.
B
B
You
had
opportunities
your
parents,
never
dreamed
of
by
the
70s
that
started
to
break
down
in
different
ways
and
both
sides
of
the
Atlantic
and
out
of
that
breakdown
in
that
period
of
uncertainty,
came
a
new
consensus,
a
new
model
of
prosperity
which
is
identified
with
Reagan
and
Thatcher,
but
spreads
out
a
lot
further
across
Europe.
And
it's
yes.
What
people
talk
about
as
the
neoliberal
period
and
for
a
good?
While
you
know
between
the
1980s
and
2008
that
worked
not
just
for
the
people
at
the
top,
for
whom
it
was
working
very
well.
B
When
you're
in
your
50s,
you
could
take
early
retirement.
These
things
still
felt
like
they
were
working.
Then
2008
becomes
this
threshold
where,
after
that,
there's
like
a
critical
mass
of
people
in
society.
For
him
it's
not
working
and
in
particular
those
young
people,
for
whom
the
whole
deal
that
they've
been
offered
just
doesn't
seem
to
be
there
anymore
and
Paul
Mason
who's,
a
journalist
in
the
UK,
he's
really
done
a
lot
of
work
telling
these
stories
across
Europe
and
beyond.
He
came
up
with
this
phrase
the
graduate
without
a
future.
B
A
It's
interesting,
you
mentioned
the
you
mentioned
the
states
and
you
mention
Europe,
but
you
know
the
same
sort
of
debates
about
you
know
this
move
to
debt
and
neoliberalism,
and
also
the
fact
that
younger
people
realize
that
the
social
contract
was
a
bill
of
goods
that
they
were
sold
on.
That's
also,
you
know
a
big
part
of
arm.
You
know
the
Arab
Spring.
Yes,
I'm
in
Egypt,
it's
a
big
part
of
the
movements
that
are
happening
in
Iran
right
now.
A
You
know
Donella
Meadows,
with
limits
to
growth
in
the
Club
of
Rome,
with
their
models
like
their
computer
models
on
sustainability,
really
show
that
that
that's
not
the
case
that
we
have
to
reconfigure
something
else,
but
that
anger.
You
know
it
boggles
my
mind
that
we
haven't
had
a
flashpoint
of
young
people.
A
Okay
for
the
rest
of
my
life,
at
least
that's
what's
happening
in
the
States,
and
this
new
kind
of
this
situation
is,
you
know
it's
pretty
impressive
and
is
kind
of
like
a
new
type
of
indentured
servitude
or
a
new
slavery
where
debt
is
used
to
harvest
the
labor
of
people
arm
without
involuntarily.
Okay,
just
as
slavery
is
the
capture
of
people's
labor
involuntarily.
A
B
C
B
B
B
Who
knows
what
they,
what
their
nature
of
a
decisive
ruptures
that
will
come
along
the
way
will
be
I.
Think
that's
the
paradox
and
I
mean
who
is
it?
Who
said
savagely?
Jake
quotes
it
quite
often,
but
I
think
it
was
Frederick
Jamison
who
said
it
originally,
it's
easier
to
imagine
the
end
of
the
world
at
the
end
of
ilysm.
There
is,
but
is
the
paradox
of
living
at
the
time
where,
on
the
one
hand,
it's
almost
impossible
to
imagine
things
going
on
like
this.
B
On
the
other
hand,
it's
very
hard
to
imagine
the
mechanisms
by
which
things
change.
You
know
the
old
some
modernist
hope
of
revolution
also
belonged
to
a
world
in
which
the
future
was
full
of
promise
in
a
certain
sense,
and
just
as
the
promise
of
the
future
has
been
eroded
by
the
realities
of
neoliberalism
and
then
the
realities
of
the
post-2008
crisis,
neoliberalism,
ooh.
B
B
Stuff
is
really
battered,
if
not
broken
by
the
experience
of
recent
decades,
and
so
part
of
the
difficulty
of
what
we're
seeing
with
these
new
political
movements
is
that
you,
on
the
one
hand,
you
get
just
this
dangerous
boiling
of
fear
and
rage,
and
it
so
easily
becomes
hatred
pointed
out
the
weak
and
the
vulnerable,
and,
on
the
other
hand,
you
you
get
a
risk
of
a
politics
of
nostalgia,
a
risk
that
the
forms
of
questioning
their
liberalism
that
come
up
in
parties.
If.
A
B
A
It's
in
different
ways,
based
on
what
they're,
seeing
and
and
I
would
say
that
you
know
you're
one
of
those
people
who
are
doing
that
a
player
knows
one
that's
trying
to
help
other
people
on
create
these
networks,
and
you
know
all
over.
You
know,
I
see
it.
At
least
you
know
where
I'm
from
the
local
food
movement,
the
CSA
PS
different
types
of
Urban
Development
shared
spaces.
A
The
way
in
which
you
know
20-somethings
are
you
know,
there's
a
subculture
of
people,
converting
vans
and
now
traveling
around
is
as
electronic
nomads
on
and
going
around
and
building
their
lives
and
creating
jobs.
Now
that's
not
going
to
work
if
they
have,
you
know
families
and
for
other
things,
but
people
are
resisting
and
they're
creating
their
own
answers
to
these
solutions
so
to
try
to
find
a
different
option.
Other
than
I.
Think,
like
you're,
saying
the
nostalgia
for
what
happened
in
the
past,
which
is
gone,
yeah.
B
And
I
I
think
you're
right,
I
I
think
that
there
is
an
extent
to
which
a
the
depth
of
the
mess
forces
a
the
improvisation
of
new
strategies.
I
think
that
you
from
my
generation
who
were
kind
of
in
our
late
30s,
we
kind
of
a
lot
of
us,
got
on
board
the
sort
of
the
last
carriages
of
the
train
of
the
old
way
of
making
life
work.
C
B
No,
we
didn't
get
deal
that
people
who
bought
houses
for
nothing
30
40
years
ago
and
who
saw
the
value
of
the
houses
go
through
the
roof
got,
but
we're
also
not
necessarily
in
the
same
situation
as
the
people
in
the
generation
who
are
in
their
20s,
for
whom,
like
the
the
old
and
the
old
kind
of
state
of
affairs,
you
might
spend
a
while
in
your
twenties,
experimenting
with
some
kind
of
alternative
lifestyle.
And
then
you
got
to
a
certain
point.
You
became.
B
And
I
think
that
what
we're
seeing
is
that
becoming
normalized
is
less
of
an
option
that
is
the
deal,
gets
so
bad
and
if
the
deal
is
even
there
for
you,
that
people
have
to
at
the
edges
begin
improvising
new
strategies
that
are
not
just
about.
If
something
you
do
for
a
while
before
you
get
a
proper
job
but
they're
about
know.
What
are
you
going
to
do
with
your
life,
given
that
you
may
never
get
a
proper
job
and
part
of
what
can
happen
with?
That
is
a
deeper
questioning.
B
It's
the
whole
narrative
that
was
on
offer
of
life
is
about
getting
a
proper
job
and
owning
a
house
and
paying
off
your
mortgage,
and
all
of
that
and
oh,
the
paradox
is
that
the
stuff
that
might
be
the
kind
of
material
of
possibility
is
very
ambiguous.
A
lot
of
it
feels
very
small
in
proportion
to
the
scale
of
the
institutions
at
the
centers
of
power
I.
B
We
look
at
our
local
food
projects
and
they're
inspiring,
but
maybe
we
worry
a
little
bit
that
they're
kind
of
a
luxury
thing
that
is
mostly
kind
of
luxury
consumption
for
the
cultural
middle
classes.
Robot.
If
we
look
more
carefully
around
the
edges,
we
see
other
things
going
on
as
well
and
then,
if
we
kind
of
zoom
out
like
you
were
suggesting
before
we
realized
that
at
a
global
level,
the
picture
looks
different.
Only
thirty
percent
of
the
food
that
is
produced
in
the
world
today
is
produced
within
the
industrial
food
system.
B
Fifty
percent
of
the
food
that
is
produced
in
the
world
today
is
produced
by
peasant
farming,
the
bournes
entirely
outside
of
the
kind
of
agro
industrial
system.
That
is
what
we
assume
we
are
taking
for
granted
at
the
other
end
of
the
production
chain
that
leads
to
our
supermarkets
and
in
those
kinds
of
possibilities.
B
The
possibility
that
a
lot
of
the
answers
for
how
we
make
it
through
as
things
get
more
critical
as
systems
break
down
as
the
next
wave
of
the
kind
of
event
2008
was
one
wave
of
hits
as
the
realities
of
climate
change
hit.
The
possibility
that
the
people
who've
got
the
clues
the
ways
of
making
things
keep
going
might
not
often
be
people
like
even
me
in
countries
like
ours,
but.
A
No,
it's
usually
somewhere,
you
know
with
the
food
production,
but
also
with
you
know,
creating
those
new
systems
they're
always
they
generally
lie.
I
mean
there
are
some
great
spots,
but
you
know
you
want
to
learn
about
reforestation
from
the
huge
work
that's
been
done
in
Kenya,
okay
with
one
gauri
moatize
students
and
the
students
are
her
students.
You
know
you
want
to
learn
about
aquaponics
and
you
know
fish
farming
them.
A
B
A
Also
say
that,
at
least
in
those
places
which
have
been
sort
of
captured
by
capitalism
or
the
neo,
you
know
the
neoliberal
agenda
that
you're
now
your
choices
are
really
the
dollars
that
you
have
to
spend.
Okay,
so
those
are
your
only
votes
in
the
society
anymore.
In
some
ways
you
know
buying
the
product
from
the
local
producer.
A
Which
is,
and
so
we're
back
to
the
in
some
ways,
institutions
enforcing
you-
know
Gradgrind
back
on
us
to
talk
about.
You
know
hard
times
by
Dickens.
You
know
person
who
was
just
you
know
it's
the
test.
It's
the
you
know,
the
quantification
of
knowledge
were
so
much
about
our
lives
can't
be
quantified
or
we
have
to
figure
out
different
ways
in
which
to
measure
that
and
to.
B
Talk
about
a
concrete
example
which
maybe
fills
in
some
of
the
pictures
that
we've
been
talking
about
in
terms
of
the
kinds
of
projects
and
initiatives
that
do
seem
to
be
opening
things
up
and
but
also
it
brings
this
stuff
into
focus.
So
space
makers,
the
agency
that
I
founded
in
the
UK,
which
is
now
run
by
a
fantastic
team
led
by
Matt
Western,
they
have
been
working
on
this
project
called
the
Brighton
school
which
started
in
the
city
of
Brighton,
which
is
where
matt
has
lived.
B
B
This
happens
sometimes
in
the
British
system
that
when
there's
a
big
developer
comes
in
and
does
project
in
an
area,
they
have
to
put
like
a
really
tiny
percentage
of
the
amount
they're
spending
on
that
project
into
a
fund
to
do
something:
cultural
in
the
area,
and
so
there
was
an
invitation
for
artists
to
propose
projects
and
space
makers
went
and
said.
Look:
we
don't
think
that
this
neighborhood
needs
another
fancy
piece
of
street
furniture,
which
is
what
these
things
often
tend
out.
Turn.
B
B
C
B
Kinds
of
agendas
that
end
up
steering
the
overall
direction
of
these
institutions
doesn't
necessarily
make
it
easy
to
prioritize
that
stuff
in
practice.
So
what
they
did
with
the
Brighton
school
is
they
created
a
post,
grad
program,
five
students
who
have
graduated
the
previous
summer
from
a
range
of
different
disciplines
where
they
came
in
and
for
two
days
a
week.
They
were
the
Brighton
school
over
six
months
and
they
were
paid
for
their
time.
B
So,
instead
of
paying
to
go
to
school,
they
were
actually
being
paid
a
living
wage
and
they
were
for
the
first
three
months.
They
had
all
kinds
of
guest
teachers
coming
in
people
who
were
really
amazing,
leading
figures
in
different
fields
in
relation
to
public
space
and
what
we
do
with
it
and
then
over
the
second
three
months.
They
as
a
team,
created
a
project
and
commissioned
and
installed
it.
So
they
actually
created
a
public
artwork
that
was
grounded
in
the
place
and
coming
out
what
they
were
doing
so.
B
These
things
now.
What's
really
interesting
to
me
is
that
I
was
chatting
to
map
the
other
day
and
he
said
he'd
been
having
a
meeting
with
somebody
from
the
management
in
a
university
else.
We're
talking
about
this
project
and
in
the
meeting
one
of
these
senior
managers
turnaround
said
well,
we
don't
really
get
how
you
could
get
away
with
calling
at
a
school
when
you
weren't,
giving
out
a
qualification
now.
B
A
Ribbons
that
we
we're
on
Remembrance
Day
on
to
show
that
we're
part
of
the
club
on
more
and
more
people
all
over
the
world.
It's
funny
they're
sort
of
like
two
tracks.
They
really
want
that
ribbon
arm
and
they're,
sometimes
neglecting
the
skills
needed
to
show
that
you
have
the
skills
needed
to
show
that
you
can
actually
do
this
stuff,
yes
versus
just
getting
the
ribbon.
You
homme
yeah,.
B
So
I
think
that
you
learning
is
not
just.
We
know.
This
learning
is
not
just
this:
a
kind
of
accumulation
of
kind
of
intellectual
capital,
a
stack
of
things
that
you've
learned.
It's
an
experience,
it's
something
that
happens
again
in
relationships
between
people
and
lots
of
that
is
hard
to
measure.
And
it's
not
that
there
is
no
case
for
no
situation
which
is
useful
to
act
as
if
we
can
measure
this
stuff.
B
But
if
we
reduce
the
thing
that
is
going
on
and
say
that
there
is
no
value
here,
there
is
nothing
worthwhile
taking
place
here
unless
it
can
be
commodified
and
looking
over
qualification.
It
feels
to
me,
like
we've,
gone
a
long
way
astray
from
what
people
have
mostly
understood,
learning
to
be
like
and
to
involve
in
different
times
and
places.
Well,.
A
When
you're,
when
you're
in
a
collapse,
kind
of
environment
and
resources
become
scarcer
and
scarcer,
you
have
people
becoming
more
and
more
conservative,
it's
kind
of
like
you're
falling
or
you're
going
to
fall.
What
do
you
do
you
try
to
grab
onto
something
you're,
not
open
to
the
change
of
possibilities
so
as
at
least
in
the
states,
as
higher
educational
institutions
suffer
more
and
more
economically
they're,
actually
becoming
more
and
more
conservative
about
the
way
they
look
at
education?
They
want
more
and
more
people
in
the
classes
they
want
to.
B
On
one
way
that
we
could
that
have
some,
that
up
is
to
say
that,
on
the
one
hand,
the
game
is
getting
harsher.
It's
like
a
game
of
musical
chairs
where
there
are
fewer
and
fewer
and
stools
left
to
sit
on
when
the
music
stops,
and
so
it's
getting
more
and
more
tense.
People
are
fighting
harder
and
harder
for
the
diminishing
pot
of
places
in
what
winning
used
to
look
like,
but
on
the
other
hand,
a
counter
effect
to
that
is,
as
the
game
gets
less
and
less
fun.
A
You
know
you
mentioned
the
metaphor
of
musical
chairs,
and
this
might
be
a
good
one.
To
end
on
is
that
the
point
of
a
chair
is
that
you
can
sit
down
okay
and
if
they
eliminate
the
chairs,
you
can
always
just
sit
on
the
floor.
It
does
the
same
type
of
thing.
Okay,
it's
restful,
and
you
know
what
we
have
to
do
is
just
you
know,
stop
listening
to
the
music
stopped
listening
to
the
to
the
music
stopped
and
just
stop
playing
their
game
and
sit
on
the
floor
and
educate
yourself
at
your
sand.
C
A
C
C
A
You
later
see
you
later
I
had
another
really
interesting
conversation
with
someone
who
just
handles
financial
aid,
because
one
of
the
things
that
I've
been
doing
is
taking
a
look
at.
You
know:
student
loan
debt
in
some
relationship
to
financial
aid
and
how
financially
gets
calculated.
Okay,
the
calculations
are
pretty
straightforward
and,
to
be
perfectly
honest,
they're
they're,
quite
fair
in
terms
of
they
look
at
in
the
US.
The
income
levels
of
the
parents.
C
In
iron
disposition
or
perspective
on
what
learning
means
for
anyone,
I
feel
like,
we
can
very
very
quickly
change
the
discussion
on
how
do
we
fund?
How
do
we
find
that
the
the
next
trillion
dollars
of
funding
for
for
the
next
generation
of
higher
learners,
and
how
do
we
inspire
them
to
sort
of
create
their
learning
for
themselves?.