►
Description
This is the full interview with Debbie Donksy for The Higher Education Revolution with Jesse Bania.
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A
B
A
C
C
I
did
a
master's
degree
that
focused
on
learning
for
English
language,
learners
and
sort
of
disrupting
the
status
quo
around.
What
do
those
programs
look
like,
and
that
was
about?
It-
was
I
graduated
in
96,
so
we're
talking
20
years
ago
and
I
finished
my
doctorate
in
2006
10
years
ago,
and
that
was
focused
on
really
social
studies
curriculum,
but
it
looked
at
knowledge
building
from
a
critical
pedagogy
perspective.
So
really,
how
do
we
again
disrupt?
A
Awesome
I
mean
I
would
speculate
that.
The
reason
that
you
were
asked
to
write
is
basically
because
we
value
at
higher
and
revolution
I
think
because
so
much
of
learning
flows
into
that
moment
in
it
in
a
sort
of
a
young
adults
life.
It's
incredibly
important.
What's
going
on
right
before
that
or
even
much
earlier
on,
so
there's
no
perspective
that
is
irrelevant,
but.
C
A
C
If
I
turn
my
computer
well,
if
I,
if
I
moved
out
of
the
way,
you
can
see
my
color-coded
bookshelf
and
if
I
turned
my
computer
around,
which
I
won't
it's
a
bit
messy,
you
would
see
stacks
of
books
that
are
waiting
to
be
read.
So
it's
really
it's
it's
that
it's
cliche
but
lifelong
learner,
so
somebody
will
say
a
book
and
I
will
get
it.
You
know
I
right
now,
one
of
the
books
I'm
reading
is
this
one.
C
Then,
when
my
god
cool
you
know
and
then
I
went
to
miss
session
with
apple,
and
they
talked
about
this
and
it's
an
older
book
campfires
in
cyberspace.
So
like
it's,
it
talks
about
ancient
learning
and
how
does
that
or
be
prehistoric
learning,
and
how
do
we
build
that
into
schools,
so
there
and
I
also
teach
so
I
teach
a
principles,
qualification
course,
and
I
love
this.
C
To
be
honest,
like
I
loved
the
writing
in
there
I
love
that
it's
dialogic,
that
it
invites
that
kind
of
discourse
where
so
many
blogs
is
just
here's,
my
thought
and
and
then
the
comments
are
like
great
writing,
but
with
medium
I
feel
that
there
is
a
back-and-forth
that
exists
in
that
in
that
online
environment
that
doesn't
another
so
really
anywhere
everywhere.
Always
to
your
ID
I
know
you
write
about
learning
at
anywhere,
yeah.
A
I
and
I've
just
really
started
expressing
myself
through
it
I've
been
reading
on
it
for
a
while
I'm,
even
write
articles
that
talk
about
how
a
lot
of
the
teachers
are
beginning
to
utilize
it,
as
as
a
as
a
productive
channel
for
communication
and
expression
for
kids,
which
I
think
is
great.
You
know
opening
that
door
and
letting
it
become
what
it
needs
to
or
should,
or
whatever
it
may
be,
for
the
student
is
incredibly
important
and
again
to
your
point,
highlighting
their
voice
in
the
process.
You
know
that
is
the
ultimate
goal.
A
That's
great
I
mean
you
can
see
behind
me.
I
have
a
bottle,
is
a
is
a
therapeutic
art
project
that
my
wife
and
I
did
after
we
had
first
visited
man
before
we
moved
here,
so
it
was
something
that
we
have
done.
It's
something
that
we'd
like
to
get
back
into,
but
that
I
mean
I'm
sure
you
appreciate
that.
But
that's
a
that's
such
a
positive
role,
that
arts
house
in
our
lives
and
to
take
that
away
from
kids's
is
borderline.
Oppressive
I
was.
C
Blake
quote
that
from
brené
Brown
I,
don't
know
if
you've
ever
read
her
work,
but
she
says
untapped.
Creativity
is
not
benign
and
it's
something
that
absolutely
fuels
the
work
that
I
do
in
schools,
with
kids
with
parents,
that
if
we
silence
people
there
will
be
a
revolution,
it
might
look
like
behavior.
It
might
look
like
disengagement,
but
that's
what
it
is.
Yeah.
A
I
completely
agree
with
that
and
I
know
my
life
as
well,
so
just
to
touch
on
your
article
rediscovery
and
wonder
a
little
bit.
What
would
you
you
know
you
bring
up
the
dynamic
between
the
millennial
and
the
you
know,
the
older
generation
or
generations
I'm.
Definitely
at
the
core
of
the
guests,
any
how
you
look
at
it
later
at
the
later
end
of
the
range
for
Millennials
as
I'm,
now
33
and
a
half,
but
in
any
case
just
for
this
person,
cuesta
teasing
all
of
myself
in
with
them.
A
C
A
I
mean
you
know,
you
mentioned
that
a
little
bit
in
the
article
it
and
I
think
that
it's
right
on
you
know
the
devices
really
just
give
us
their
tool.
You
know
they
give
us
access
we're
incredibly,
increasingly
good,
and
you
know
maybe
it's
the
organizations
that
are
filling
in
the
needs
to
do
so,
but
we're
increasingly
good
at
filtering.
You
know
finding
what
is
authentic
and
discarding
what
is
not.
A
That
being
said,
you
know
I
have
this
thing
that
I
feel
about
online
learning
or
elearning
or
whatever
you
want
to
call
it
that
you
know
what
happened
since,
maybe
the
mid-1990s
up
until
about
maybe
2010,
was
taking
in
some
ways
what
offline
learning
that
was.
You
know
pretty
standardized
in
a
lot
of
respects
and
kit
and
in
putting
it
into
the
online
realm
to
generate
benefit
from
it.
So
it
was
offline
to
online
I.
A
Think
now
we're
at
a
point
in
technology
and
learning
within
that
space
we're
we
need
to
take
online
learning
offline
right.
It's
online
learning
is
inevitable.
You
know,
because
of
these
devices
that
you
have
mentioned,
but
I
think
we're
at
this
point
in
time
where
we
need
to
understand
the
authentic
parts
of
it,
whether
it's
for
communication,
whether
it's
for
you,
know
sort
of
bridging
bridging
distances
for
people
to
learn
from
each
other.
A
C
No
I
I
know
when
we
were
preparing
for
this
I
wrote
to
you
about
the
work
I
did
in
my
ceases
and
I
said
in
online
and
offline
learning
bars
in
you.
You
made
that
connection
then,
and
now
I'm
thinking
about
it
like
I,
think
so,
I
wrote
my
thesis
or
I
was
doing
the
research
in
the
early
90s
I
used
an
online
tool
with
a
grade
3-4
class,
around
social
studies
and
what
the
dynamic
the
dynamic
that
happen
because
of
this
access
was
that
there
was
a
shift
in
cultural
capital.
C
C
They
were,
you
know
they
wanted
to
learn
from
other
people
and
all
of
a
sudden
they
gained
the
capital,
really
they
gained
cultural
capital
in
that
classroom,
and
there
was
a
shift,
and
so
when
I
talk
about
that
online
to
offline,
it
was
really
that
you
didn't
need
this
online
thing
to
make
it
happen.
You
did
for
them
to
see
or
to
sort
of
demystify
who
has
intelligence,
who
has
knowledge,
because
they
always
felt
less
and
when
they
said
when
it
becomes
transparent.
C
It's
it's
community
right
and
and
then
how
do
you
take
that
community
and
move
it
off
long
which
I
ate
and
I'm
thinking
to
as
you're
talking
I'm
realizing,
even
though
I'm
much
older
than
you
almost
47?
And
that
is
that's
a
big
difference
when
we're
talking
in
terms
of
technology,
I.
Think
the
fact
that
I
was
an
educator
through
this
process,
because
I
I
graduated,
the
Faculty
of
Education
in
92,
I,
think
92
or
93,
and
started
teaching
right
away
and
always
embraced
technology.
C
So
I
learned
with
those
kids,
you
know
I,
oh
and
I.
Think
it
allows
me
to
have
this
sort
of
you
know
like
I
can
be
in
both
spaces
and
I.
Think
there
are
other
people
that
are
my
age
or
even
a
little
older
who
don't
write.
You
don't
see
technology
as
a
communication
tool.
They
see
it
as
a
very
different
type
of
tool
and
that.
A
C
A
woman
using
technology,
it
was
very
different,
I
think
that
my
sensibility
towards
it
was
different.
So
a
lot
of
the
people
that
ran
IT
in
our
board.
At
that
time
they
were
all
men
and
whenever
you
needed
help,
they
would
come
up
and
say
here.
Let
me
show
you
and
they
push
you
out
of
the
way
and
I
think
that
I
don't
know
if
that's
a
male-female
thing,
but
absolutely
the
way
I
entered
into
it.
C
A
A
C
Well,
I
think
I
think
that
we
I
think
that
we
have
to
get
away
from
the
idea.
So
you
just
said
about
that
where
the
real
power
is
when
kids
teach
other
kids
and
we
have
to
get
away
from
the
idea
that
we
are
the
ones
who
own
the
knowledge
and
we
will
impart
this
knowledge
to
you
I
think
that
it's
you
know
I
to
make
it
authentic
you.
C
We
have
to
be
real
as
educators,
and
so
often
they
aren't
like
what
I,
when
I
wrote
about
just
this
past
week
was
with
this
you
know,
just
again:
it's
like
the
control,
I'm
going
to
control
this
knowledge,
I'm
going
to
control
the
situation.
I
wrote
about
parent
engagement,
which
is
another
aspect
of
it,
but
the
idea
that
you
know
you
can't
you
don't
want.
You
want
parents
to
be
engaged,
but
you
don't
want
them
to
be
in
your
face
and
where
is
the
balance?
And
I
think
it's
the
same
as
students
in
classrooms.
C
C
That
said
that
when
Trump
was
talking
about
his
wall,
he
likes
to
talk
about
his
wall
and
he
said
you
know
we
should
have,
but
we
should
have
a
gate
in
the
wall,
and
my
son
and
I
talked
about
that,
because
I
find
that
really
disturbing
as
a
religious
leader
that
he
would
it
to
me.
That's
supporting
the
wall.
C
C
The
rabbi
in
the
rabbi
said:
that's
not
what
I
meant
I
have
to
reconsider
this
and
thank
you
for
bringing
it
to
my
attention
and-
and
it
was
so
nice
that
he
wasn't
insulted
or
offended
by
my
son's
question
and
Max
came
home
and
he
felt
validated
and
felt
like
he
had
helped.
The
rabbi
shift
is
thinking
a
little
bit.
That's
what
they
want
from
teachers.
C
They
want
to
be
able
to
shift
the
teachers
thinking
they
want
to
be
able
to
feel
that
there
are
knowledge
matters
and,
and
they
want
to
teach
her
to
say,
I,
don't
know,
let's
figure
this
out
together
instead
of
getting
angry
and
shutting
down
the
conversation
and-
and
I
think
that's
that's
where
you
know
that
that
to
me
is
what
that's
about
the
authenticity
and
also
recognizing
that
they
don't
need
to
get
knowledge
from
us,
they
can
get
it
from
a
multitude
of
sources.
We
need.
C
What
we
need
to
bring
is,
what
is
discourse
and
dialogue?
Look
like
you
know,
I.
Think
that
I've
just
read
your
recent
article
and
you
talk
about
that.
You
can't
just
say,
like
they
own
everything
that
there
has
to
be
some
teaching
that
happens
and
the
teaching
team
you
are
in
process.
How
do
you
just
determine
what
is
authentic
and
what
is
not?
How
do
you
engage
in
meaningful
dialogue?
How
do
you
listen
and
question
yourself
I,
just
read
it:
I
was
for
district
rep.
C
Arrow
is
rereading
pedagogy
of
the
oppressed
and
there's
this
one
part.
It
says
so
he
says
dialogue
as
the
encounter
of
those
addressed
to
the
common
task
of
learning
and
acting
is
broken
if
the
parties
one
or
one
of
them,
is
lacking
in
humility.
How
can
I
dialogue
if
I
always
project
ignorance
on
to
others
and
never
perceive
my
own?
So
as
teachers,
we
have
to
always
perceive
our
own
ignorance
and
allows
students
to
project
their
own
knowledge.
C
A
Yeah
I
entirely
agree
with.
All
of
that,
I
mean
I
think
that
the
student
is
the
primary
actor
in
a
lot
of
ways
and
I.
Think
at
you
know
at
the
very
least
parallel
with
the
teacher,
and
there
are
instances
in
teaching
I'm
sure
I've
seen
it,
but
I
haven't
necessarily
been
the
teacher
and
sort
of
felt
that
moment
of
vulnerability
as
a
teacher,
but
where
the
teacher
has
to
be
learning
from
the
student.
You
know
the
the
old
paradigm.
Seeing
you
know,
information
transfer,
teacher-student,
the
reverse
is
also
true.
A
Information
goes
from
student
to
teacher.
You
know
what
I'm
really
interested
in,
because
you
know
part
of
what
I'm
doing
with
these
guys
that
are
now
is,
is
finding
ways
to
engage
people
in
this
process
of
you
know,
could
post
secondary
learning
and
an
educational
opportunity.
You
know
I
mean
that's
really
the
essence
behind
the
article
and
why
I
wrote
that
and
sort
of
published
that,
as
my
first
one
and
higher
in
the
higher
end
revolution
publication,
but
it's?
How
can
we
engage
students
voice?
A
C
I
so
I
actually
recently
just
visited
Texas.
We
were
visiting
some
schools
that
are
partnered
with
apple
and
one
of
the
things
that
one
of
the
teacher
said
is
when
I
enter
into
new
learning
with
the
students.
I
just
ask
them.
How
do
you
want
to
learn
this?
It
seems
so
simple.
You
know
we
we
craft
these
experiences
for
children
or
students.
I
should
say
cuz
we're
talking
older
students
as
well,
and
we
need
to
ask
them.
How
do
you
want
to
learn
this
yeah?
C
C
I
mean
these
online
schools,
for
me,
are
fascinating,
I'm,
taking
a
course
right
now
through
Stanford
on
math
teaching
through
my
board,
like
they're
they're,
paying
for
it
for
us,
but
it's
it's
a
course
with
an
amazing
leader
in
mathematics,
education
and
I
think
it
costs
eighty
dollars
a
person
and-
and
you
know,
there's
a
couple
courses.
I'm
waiting
to
take
now
and
I
think
there's
thirty
forty
dollars
a
class,
so
I
think
in
your
article
you
talk
about.
C
They
still
cause
something,
but
it's
a
lot
less
than
a
traditional
university
education
and
these
ideas
and
the
idea
is
to
engage
in
course,
has
come
at
a
time
when
it's
when
I
want
it.
It's
meaningful
and
and
I
have
the
time
to
do
it
and
the
flexibility
to
do
it
so
I
think
all
of
those
pieces
play
in.
But
it's
also
how
it's
not
just
ok
I
want
to
learn
online,
because
online
learning
to
your
point
earlier
can
be
the
same
as
a
tradition,
classroom
and
in
the
course
I'm
teaching.
C
I,
probably
shouldn't
say
this,
but
you
know
post
your
response
and
then
respond
to
two
others
like
well.
That's
authentic.
You
know
like
that
to
me
is
the
beginning
when,
when
the
online
learning
started
happening-
and
this
free-flowing
discourse
is
something
that
is,
is
a
that
we
can
do
now.
Given
the
technology
that
exists,
yeah.
A
I
feel
it
a
lot
of
ways
we're
going
we're
trying
to
double
down
on
on
designing
our
curriculum
in
the
syllabi
that
go
with
it,
but
I
think
it
needs
to
be
going
in
the
opposite
direction.
I
feel
you
know
one
thing
I
had
suggested
is
you
know?
Maybe
we
think
about
it
for
the
for
the
professors
or
the
facilitators,
whatever
you
want
to
call
them
that
are
designing
these
courses.
A
A
So
can
you
imagine
how
that
course
could
evolve
over
time
if
the
contribution
and
learning
you
know
it's
not
just
this
sort
of
like
segmented
group
of
subjects
to
graduate
and
be
done
with,
and
then
move
on
to
the
next
and
sort
of
something
that
sort
of
morphs,
as
it
goes,
I
think,
there's
a
lot
of
power
in
that.
So
I'm
really
glad
to
hear
that
you
that
you
feel
that
way.
A
Digital
technology
and
capabilities
there,
a
significant
factor
affecting
education
today,
as
we've
been
saying,
I,
don't
know
if
you
read
anything
that
will
Richardson
rights,
but
he
had
an
article
recently
title
talking
about
elephants
in
the
classroom
that
shouldn't
settle
us
and
in
this
article
he
says
we
know
that
learning
that
sticks
is
usually
learned,
informally,
that
explicit
knowledge
accounts
for
very
little
of
our
success
in
professions.
Instead,
tacit
knowledge
and
the
ability
to
learn
from
others
in
the
moment
will
face
to
face.
Any
networks
is
vastly
more
important
and
effective.
A
Most
of
what
we
teach
kids,
we
teach
them
just
in
case
they
may
need
to
know
instantly
primarily
because
the
system
is
still
operating
on
the
belief
that
explicit
knowledge
is
scared
within
the
web.
It's
not
those
that
will
flourish
in
the
modern
world
will
be
those
who
can
learn
what
they
need
to
learn
just
in
time
from
a
variety
of
networks
and
sources
and
experiences.
I'm
curious
I
mean
obviously
this
touches
on
a
lot
of
what
we've
been
talking
about.
But
what
does
that
mean
for
all
of
what
you
do?
A
C
C
So
one
part
of
Technology
I,
myself
have
never
embraced
I
mean
in
the
day
I
sort
of
like
Tetris,
but
I
grew
up
with
pong
like
just
to
give
you
an
idea
of
how
old
I
am,
and
it's
just
I
I
think
that
I
find
a
problematic
I'm.
I
like
I
like
the
leaderboards.
I
think
that
that's
something
that
does
inspire
people
to
keep
going,
but
we
don't
really
inspiration.
It's
addictive.
C
It's
like
give
me
another
hit,
give
me
another
hit
so
that
that
part
for
me,
I'm
questioning,
I
think
also
you
know
we're
trying
to
take
the
information,
the
learning
and
put
it
into
smaller
and
smaller
pieces,
because
people's
attention
is
weaker
and
weaker.
So
what
even,
when
I
start
in
the
group
to
two
years
ago,
our
videos
really
like
they
have
to
be
under
10
minutes
it's
two
years
later
and
research
is
telling
us
they
have
to
be
under
three
minutes
or
people
will
lose
attention
and
even
medium.
C
When
you
look
and
you
see
how
many
people
have
read
it,
but
the
percentage
of
what
they've
read
I,
don't
know
how
they
figure
that
out,
how
fast
you
scroll
through
I,
don't
know,
but
I,
just
I
fought,
not
fascinating.
I
I
think
that
we
also
have
to
have
I.
Are
your
expectations
of
our
learners?
I?
Think
that
if
it's
intriguing
and
inspiring,
they
will
stay
with
it
so
like
in
an
elementary
classroom.
C
When
we
talk
about
behavior,
then
all
these
teachers
come
up
with
these
ways
to
manage
behaviors
called
classroom
management
and
they
have
in
one
two
three
magic
or
all
of
these
hokey
kind
of
ways
to
control
it.
But
if
your
program
is
intriguing,
you
don't
have
behavior
and
I
think
it's
the
same
thing
with
online
learning.
Put
some
effort
into
it.
Yeah
make
sure
it's
responsive
your
idea
that
you're
saying
that
there's
a
syllabus,
but
there
needs
to
be
flexibility
and
responsiveness
to
it.
So
we're
trying
to
create
tools
that
are
like
that.
C
You
know
you
can
pick
and
choose
your
topics.
You
can
match
them
together.
You
know,
there's
online
content,
there's
webcast
different
ways
of
learning,
there's
also
reading
material
that
can
be
done
downloaded.
So
you
can
use
that
your
own
time,
infographics
images
instead
of
words.
You
know
we're
experimenting
with
all
of
this
yeah.
A
C
Other
we're
finding
too
and
I,
don't
know
what
it
what
the
laws
are
in
in
the
US,
but
its
accessibility
standards
with
online
learning,
people
who
are
visually
impaired,
hearing
impaired
and
and
we
have
to
adjust
the
content
that
we're
making.
We
have
to
offer
alternative
formats
for
what
we're
making.
So
it
might
be
that
if
it's
a
video,
there's
captioning,
but
that
benefits
everybody
and
so
this
excess.
These
accessibility
laws
have
pushed
us
to
have
multiple
ways
of
learning
and
everything
that
we
create.
I.
Think
it's
a.
A
Good
thing:
that's
a
positive
development
epsilon
it
all
right.
Well,
so
let
me
just
ask
one
final
question
and
it's:
it
definitely
relates
to
us
at
a
plural,
a
little
bit
but
I'm
curious.
You
know,
since
you
are
an
educator
and
you've
been
so
and
now
are
so
continue.
You
continue
to
be
in
a
multitude
of
capacities
with
a
you
know,
a
variety
of
Ages
skill,
subjects
or
topics.
Would
you
consider
designing
or
building
a
learning
community
around
if
you
had
to
do
so
in
a
very
sort
of
targeted
way
online.
C
I
would
love
to
design
my
own
learning
for
people
who
are
in
the
role
of
principal
and
vice
principal,
and
I
think
that
there
needs
to
be
a
new
way
of
learning
for
leaders.
I
think
that
leaders
in
schools
traditionally
are:
we
call
them
instructional
leaders
and
now
there's
a
new
language
around
italy
learner,
and
the
idea
is
that
you
have
to
show
your
vulnerability.
You
just
like
a
teacher
in
a
classroom
in
a
traditional
sense
principles,
and
vice
principals
in
schools.
Try
to
create
this
image
of
themselves.
C
It
is
so
in
authentic
and
I
think
what
it
does
is
it
keeps
it
keeps
teachers
from
expanding
in
their
way
of
learning,
I
mean
often
teachers.
Do
it
in
spite
of
the
leadership
in
the
school
and
but
it
trickles
down
right
that
expression
that
the
fish
rots
from
the
head
and
that
you
know
there
are
so
many
people
that
go
into
leadership
and
education
who
don't
have
to
continue
learning
they've
got
the
courses,
that's
their
goal,
they've
accomplished
it.
C
They
really
don't
have
to
do
any
other
learning
where
teachers
continue
to
take
additional
qualifications
course
and
it
get
exposed
to
learning.
Principles
can
be
the
only
principle
with
no
VP
in
a
school
and
so
where's
your
network
and
I.
Think
we
have
to
disrupt
that
a
little
bit.
I
would
love
to
design
a
course
or
not.
C
B
Joint
is
taking
a
look
at
you
know:
student
loan
debt
in
some
relationship
to
financial
aid
and
how
financially
gets
calculated.
Okay,
the
calculations
are
pretty
straightforward
and,
to
be
perfectly
honest,
they're
they're,
quite
fair
in
terms
of
they
look
at
in
the
US.
The
income
levels
of
the
parents
and.