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From YouTube: Transit Commission - Special Meeting - January 27, 2023
Description
Transit Commission
Meeting #: 1
Date: Friday, January 27, 2023
Time: 9:30 am
Location: Champlain Room, 110 Laurier Avenue West, and by electronic participation
Agenda: https://pub-ottawa.escribemeetings.com/?Year=2023&Expanded=Transit%20Commission
A
Test
one
two
test:
one:
two:
one:
two
tests
for
English,
one,
two,
three
foreign.
A
D
D
F
D
C
D
D
D
I
just
wanted
to
start
first
of
all
by
welcoming
staff
and
delegations
who
are
are
here
today.
We
have
a
number
of
delegations
who
who
have
registered.
D
D
We're
here
today.
Looking
back
it's
almost
four
years
ago
that
our
Council
started
formally
talking
about
e-buses
back
in
February
2019,
there
was
inquiry
from
our
colleague
councilor
McKinney
back
then
in
June
2021,
Transit,
Commission
and
city
council
gave
a
clear
signal
to
our
staff
that
we
were
ready
to
begin
conversion
of
our
diesel
fleet
to
electric
buses
and
we've
had
a
number
of
updates
and
Milestones
along
the
way.
D
But
this
is
a
significant
one,
a
report
back
to
us
and
some
decisions
to
be
made
by
commission
and
by
Council
on
the
overall
funding
for
the
project
and
today
we're
going
to
get
an
extensive
update
on
the
procurement
plans,
as
well
as
the
technical
results
when
Renee
introduced
us
at
City
Council
on
Wednesday
I.
Believe
she
remarked
this
is
not
a
project,
it's
a
transfer
transformation,
so
it
is
a
very
important,
very
important
Initiative
for
the
city
of
Ottawa
I've.
D
Also,
we've
had
so
much
attention
over
the
past
four
years
on
Light
Rail,
and
rightly
so.
That's
another
major
transformation
for
our
city,
but
in
the
foreseeable
future,
buses
will
still
be
the
backbone
of
our
system.
If
you
took
Transit
today
in
Ottawa
very
likely
you
took
a
bus
and
that
will
continue
to
be
the
case,
so
we
need
to
put
as
much
attention
and
focus
on
buses
as
we
do
on
light
rail
going
forward
and
I'm
looking
forward
to
the
conversation
for
today.
D
So
with
that
I'd
like
to
turn
it
over
to
Renee
and
her
team,
and
they
can
walk
us
through
the
presentation.
If
you
have
any.
G
H
H
H
Bank
are
the
remission.
Bus
program
would
not
be
possible.
Maybe
we
can
start
sharing
the
presentation
please,
but
I
recognize
that
there
are
many
of
you
here
today
who
are
new
to
Aussie
transport,
zero
emission
bus
program,
so
I'm
happy
to
walk
you
through
the
years
of
work
that
has
brought
us
to
this
today.
H
H
H
H
H
G
H
H
H
H
After
careful
consideration
and
Analysis
of
multiple
zero
emission
energy
sources
and
technology
used
across
North
America
battery
electric
buses
are
currently
the
best
option
to
start
a
transition
to
a
zero
Mission.
Ocd
transport,
Fleet
City
staff
engaged
with
experts
from
several
organizations
to
develop
the
recommendations
for
this
prohibition
bus
program.
H
The
recommendations
were
based
on
studies
of
Technology
alternatives,
energy,
Supply
and
financing
options
and
results
from
studies.
You
know
the
Canadian
cities
such
as
Montreal
Toronto,
Calgary,
Kingston
and
Winnipeg,
to
name
a
few
based
on
our
findings.
Several
sources
of
energy
and
Technologies
were
not
recommended,
including
hybrid
electric
compressed
natural
gas
and
renewable
natural
gas
buses.
H
H
I
Okay,
thank
you
and
thank
you,
chair
and
good
morning,
members
for
the
Transit
Commission
to
introduce
myself,
maybe
for
the
first
time
to
the
commission.
My
name
is
Richard
holder
and
I.
Am
the
director
of
Transit
Engineering
Services
within
OC
Transpo,
in
terms
of
if
we
could
go
to
the
next
slide,
please
so
I'm
going
to
talk
a
little
bit
more
about
the
details
of
the
zero
emission
bus
program
and
as
as
Madame
amalcar
has
mentioned.
This
is
a
this.
Is
a
transform
transformative
program
for
the
city
of
Ottawa
next
slide,
please.
I
We
should
start
with
what
we
have
in
our
current
Fleet
and
so
just
going
through
the
the
oldest
members
of
our
Fleet,
the
2005-2006
new
flyer,
40-foot
buses.
We
have
95
of
those
in
the
fleet
currently
and
they're
expected
to
be
phased
out
by
2025..
I
I
In
2012,
we
bought
73
double
deckers,
the
ADL
e500s
they're
expected
to
be
phased
out
in
2026
as
well,
and
we
also
bought
in
2015
to
2019
another
Fleet
of
78
double
deck,
double
decker
buses
that
will
remain
in
service
until
2030.
I
We
we
purchased
249
Nova
Buses,
which
will
remain
in
the
fleet
until
2036,
and
then
our
most
recent
purchase
is
the
the
battery
electric
new
flare
Excelsior
40
ebus.
We
currently
have
four
that
have
been
running
in
the
pilot
phase
and
I'll
be
talking
about
that
in
a
little
more
detail
later
on
next
slide.
Please.
I
And
this
is
a
graph
that
was
presented
to
Council
in
2021.
We
have
not
updated
it
with
current
figures,
but
when
we
come
back
to
Transit
Commission
in
the
future
to
provide
further
updates,
we
will
be
updating
this
slide,
but
this
is
an
indicative
slide
just
to
indicate
that
the
program
that
we're
embarking
on
it's
a
slow
Progressive
transition.
We
are
not
jumping
in
and
purchasing
a
whole
Fleet
of
buses
to
start
off
with
we
are.
I
I
So
the
zero
emission
bus
program
is
it's
a
dedicated
program
within
OC
Transpo.
We
have
a
dedicated
team
that
is,
that
has
been
working
on
this
program
for
a
number
of
years.
We
have
a
number
of
Partnerships.
I
Importantly
for
today's
discussion.
We
have
the
partnership
with
Canada,
the
Canadian
infrastructure
bank
and
infrastructure
Canada,
who
are
providing
funding
and
also
loan
facilities.
Another
key
partner
for
the
city
of
Ottawa
is
hydro,
water
and
and
enviri.
Hydro.
Water,
of
course,
will
be
providing
the
electricity
supply
for
the
new
buses
and
then
fiery
will
be
engaged
and
to
help
with
the
design
and
the
build
installation,
testing
and
commissioning
for
all
the
charging
infrastructure
and
off-site
improvements.
I
We
will
also
be
working
and
have
been
working
with
a
with
TTC
Toronto
Transit
Commission
on
the
ebus
procurement,
and
so
we
have
an
agreement
with
TTC
once
they
have
finished
their
procurement
exercise
to
have
the
opportunity
to
engage
with
their
preferred
bidders
in
terms
of
the
procurement.
The
current
plans
based
on
approval
moving
forward
today,
is
that
we
would
be
receiving
26
e-buses
in
2023
77
in
2024
and
then
between
2024
and
2026.
There
are
the
remaining
buses
up
to
a
total
of
350
would
be
supplied
on
the
infrastructure
side.
I
We
have
upgrades
to
support
the
bus
fleet
electrification.
Those
facility
upgrades
include
structural
reinforcement
to
the
roof
of
the
buildings,
the
existing
buildings
to
support
charging
infrastructure.
I
We
have
new
sprinkler
systems
that
need
to
be
installed
and
we
also
have
in
the
plan,
as
part
of
the
350
million
dollar
infrastructure,
Canada
Grant
the
ability
to
build
a
new
covered
garage
for
the
charging
of
the
fleet
of
buses
around
20
24
to
2026
from
an
accountability
perspective
we
will
be
providing,
we
have
been
providing
and
we
will
be
providing
regular
updates
to
Transit
Commission
and,
as
part
of
the
the
the
bi-annual
capital
budget
process,
we
will
bring
forward
for
approval
that
the
purchase
of
the
next
tranche
of
electric
buses.
I
As
has
been
discussed,
this
program
has
been
going
since
2019
and
so
in
terms
of
the
timeline
going
back
to
Q2
2019,
we
have
the
Transit
Commission
approval
of
the
zero
emission
bus
pilot
program
in
June,
the
first
four
electric
buses
were
procured
in
January
2021
and
in
June
2021
we
had
the
city
council
approval
for
converting
the
full
bus
fleet
to
zero
emission
buses
in
Q3
2021.
I
The
the
first
buses
and
charges
arrived
at
this
salary
facility
for
OC
Transpo,
and
there
was
an
unveiling
of
the
pilot
buses
at
the
end
of
2021
and
then
the
first
pilot
buses
entered
service
in
February
2022.
I
Now
at
that
point,
we
were
using
plug-in
charges
and
about
the
same
time,
we
were
also
installing
the
overhead
pantograph
charges.
I
I
I
The
actual
earlier
prototype
for
this
bus
was
introduced
in
Winnipeg
in
2012.,
so
this
is
not
new
technology.
There
have
been
improvements
over
the
period
between
2012
and
2012
and
2023,
the
biggest
improvements
being
on
the
Battery
Technology,
but
but
this
type
of
technology
has
been
in
use
in
in
Canada
for
many
many
years.
I
We
have
in
Depot
charging.
As
I
mentioned,
we
have
two
different
types
of
charging.
We
have
plug-in
charging
which
is
more
familiar
for
an
electric
vehicle,
but
we
also
have
a
pantograph
overhead
charging
and
in
terms
of
moving
forward
out
of
the
pilot
phase
and
into
full
implementation,
then
the
plan
is
to
continue
just
with
the
pantographs,
because
we
we
end
up
clearing
the
floor
of
the
garages.
It's
a
much
tidier
way
of
implementing
in
a
way
in
a
tidier
way
of
charging,
the
buses
have
36
seats.
I
We
have
a
diesel
auxiliary
heater
for
winter
weather.
So,
during
normal
operations,
the
the
internal
passenger
compartment
is
provided
with
heating
and
cooling
by
the
electric
batteries
down
to
a
temperature
of
around
five
degrees
below
five
degrees.
The
diesel
auxiliary
heater
kicks
in
and
that
helps
to
save
the
battery
life
and
extend
the
range
of
the
vehicle.
I
The
vehicle
is
also
fitted
with
an
acoustic
vehicle
alerting
system,
the
avas
to
meet
all
accessibility
standards
that
are
currently
in
place,
and
the
vehicle
also
has
regenerative
braking,
which
is
good
for
the
battery
life
good
for
recharging
of
the
battery,
and
also
good
for
the
life
of
our
our
brakes.
I
The
charges
that
we've
decided
to
move
forward
with
are
will
be
the
overhead
pantographs,
as
I
previously
mentioned.
Currently
we
are
using
two
Siemens
overhead
pantographs,
which
have
been
working
very
well
through
the
pilot
phase.
We
have
plug-in
charges
that
will
not
be
continued,
but
the
current
ones
that
we
have
will
be
relocated
within
the
facility
and
will
be
reused
next
slide.
Please.
I
We
have
six
Lithium-ion
batteries
located
both
on
the
roof
and
at
the
rear
of
the
vehicle,
and
they
provide
all
attractive
power,
so
we're
moving
from
a
mechanical
system
to
an
electrical
system.
So
we
benefit
hugely
from
reduced
maintenance
costs
by
the
elimination
of
the
mechanical
systems
associated
with
a
combustion
engine.
I
We
we
don't
have
fuel
lines,
we
don't
have
diesel
tanks
and
we
don't
have
a
transmission,
so
the
vehicle
is
much
simpler.
Otherwise,
everything
else
about
the
bus
is
the
same
as
the
buses
that
we
have
on
the
road
today.
I
I
So
the
the
the
layout
on
the
right
is
is
a
a
map
of
1500,
Saint,
Laurent,
garage
and
office
building.
The
the
pilot
project
has
charging
occurring
at
the
South
garage
and
moving
forward
in
2023
and
2024.
We
would
expand
the
upgrades
to
that
facility
such
that
we
can
accept
136
electric
buses
for
electrical
charging.
I
Following
on
from
that,
we
would
move
to
the
next
facility,
the
north
garage
and
then
ultimately,
we
would
be
building
a
new
facility,
a
new
covered
charging
area
for
84
bus,
as
well
as
the
charging
facilities
and
buildings
we
have.
We
will
have
a
new
on-site
substation
that
will
be
provided
by
Hydro
water.
I
So,
as
I
mentioned
earlier,
one
of
our
key
Partnerships
is
with
Hydro
water,
so
we
are
working
with
them
on
the
design
and
procurement,
build
and
testing
commissioning
of
the
before
meter
and
after
Meter
electrical
infrastructure.
So
the
before
meter
infrastructure
includes
the
transmission
upgrades
off-site
Hydro
stations,
improvements
to
the
hydro
distribution
system
and
then
the
after
meter
the
work
that's
been
undertaken
on
site.
We
will
have
Jewel
substations
with
dual
feeds.
I
I
We
will
have
on-site
distribution
that
it
will
be
provided
by
and
fiery
on-site,
Transformers
and
and
a
main
switchboard
as
well
as
all
the
charging
equipment.
This
slide
indicates
plug-in
charges,
but
moving
forward
we'll
be
using
the
the
pantograph
dispensers.
I
An
important
note
here
is
that
we,
whilst
we
do
have
the
Dual
feed,
should
there
be
an
outage
that
impacts
the
whole
of
the
East
End
of
Ottawa.
Then
we
will
have
two
gas
fire
generators
on
site
that
will
be
used
as
a
backup
should
the
full
power
go
out
and
they
will
be
able
to
provide
redundant
charging
power
for
the
buses
next
slide.
Please.
I
As
part
of
the
program,
there
is
the
need
to
train
staff,
both
operate
operators,
technical
staff,
support
staff,
maintenance
staff,
so
we've
already
embarked
on
a
significant
training
exercise.
This
will
have
to
be
expanded,
of
course,
in
the
future,
as
we
bring
on
more
buses
in
terms
of
the
range
we
are
looking
at,
what
was
expected,
which
was
between
280
kilometers
and
350
kilometers,
the
the
lower
end
of
that
range
tends
to
occur
at
lower
temperatures.
I
So
the
the
efficiency
of
the
Lithium-ion
batteries
batteries
does
reduce
as
we
get
below
zero,
but
we're
still
able
to
meet
the
operating
requirements
and
the
root
requirements
for
which
these
buses
are
running
on
and
in
terms
of
where
we've
been
using
these
buses,
we've
used
them
across
many
different
routes
in
all
different
types
of
weather.
They
have
performed
very
well
both
in
the
winter
of
the
early
2022,
and
also
the
performance
this
winter,
with
freezing
rain
events
and
with
heavy
snowfalls.
They
have
been
performing
very
well
next
slide.
Please.
I
So
some
of
the
key
performance
indicators
that
we
will
be
coming
back
and
Reporting
on
regularly
is
the,
as
there
will
be
a
focus
on
reliability
and
a
focus
on
performance,
so
from
a
performance
perspective
we'll
be
we'll,
be
monitoring
the
range
of
the
buses,
we're
meeting
the
meeting
or
exceeding
the
expected
range
from
the
manufacturer
and
then
in
terms
of
reliability,
the
mean
distance
between
failure,
which
is
an
industry.
An
industry-wide
indicate
indicator
for
the
reliability
of
the
buses.
J
You
Richard
so
I'm
Isabel,
Jasmine,
Deputy
city,
treasurer
of
corporate
finance
and
I'll
be
going
through
the
details
of
the
report
you
have
before
you
today
in
June
2021.
Oh
next
slide,
please.
In
June
2021
we
provided
an
estimate
of
986
million
to
implement
a
Zeb
program
for
450
buses.
Much
has
happened
since
that
time.
Staff
working
with
expert
advisors
further
refine
the
requirements
to
implement
this
program.
J
The
existing
facilities
can
accommodate
350
zebs.
An
extra
100
buses
would
have
required
the
additional
cost
of
a
new
facility
which
was
not
contemplated
in
2021..
Even
for
the
350
buses,
there
were
additional
costs
for
structural
upgrades
and
fit
up
of
the
existing
facilities,
covered
parking
and
advisory
and
project
management
costs.
J
The
June
2021
report
to
commission
and
Council
approved
the
purchase
of
zero
emission
buses
for
all
future
Transit
bus
fleet
needs
as
long
as
financing
was
secured
and
the
city
did
not
spend
any
more
than
we
had
planned
for
in
the
transit
long-range
financial
plan
for
the
purchase
of
diesel
buses,
since
the
cost
of
zebs
is
twice
the
cost
of
diesel
buses
and
requires
an
upfront
investment
for
the
charging
infrastructure,
facilities,
upgrades
and
fed
UPS
equipment
and
other
transition
costs.
The
conversion
to
zero
emission
buses
would
not
be
possible
without
the
loan.
J
J
The
CIB
credit
facility
was
approved
by
the
debenture
Committee
in
August
last
year.
The
total
value
of
the
credit
facility
is
380
million
for
446
buses,
but
since
we
are
only
implementing
350
in
this
first
phase,
we
only
need
289
million
of
that
amount
and
only
75
million
for
the
first
two
tranches
of
buses
in
2023
and
2024..
J
J
Eighty
percent
of
the
savings
go
towards
repaying
the
loan
with
interest
and
the
battery
Replacements,
and
the
remaining
twenty
percent
of
the
savings
stay
with
the
city
to
cover
any
other.
Unexpected
costs,
CIB
is
taking
the
risk
on
the
savings
expected
from
converting
to
Electric,
including
the
useful
life
of
the
Zeb
maintenance
costs,
Energy
Efficiency
and
battery
replacement
costs.
J
That
means
that
if
we
don't
achieve
those
savings,
we
don't
have
to
pay
back
the
loan
or
the
interest.
The
city
Bears,
the
risk
of
achieving
the
planned
kilometers
per
per
Zeb
annually
and
any
electricity
price
increase
is
beyond
what
is
currently
projected
operationally.
We
have
quite
a
bit
of
control
on
mileage
and
with
respect
to
electricity
prices
increases.
We
expect
that
inflation
will
be
much
greater
for
diesel
going
forward.
J
J
The
zero
Mission
Transit
fund
is
a
grant
for
municipalities
to
convert
to
zero
emission
Transit.
Without
this
fund,
the
Zeb
program
would
not
be
possible.
It
took
us
several
years
to
accumulate
the
funds
just
for
the
first
four
pilot
buses,
the
June
2021
approval
from
commission
and
Council
to
purchase
zeb's
delegated
authority
to
staff,
to
negotiate
and
settle
a
funding
agreement
with
infc.
We
submitted
an
application
on
the
basis
of
that
approval.
J
The
application
process
took
much
longer
than
expected.
It
started
with
an
expression
of
interest
in
November
2021
in
order
to
receive
approval
to
even
submit
an
application
and,
with
the
caveat
that
we
had
approval
from
Council
for
this
program,
our
initial
application
submitted
in
April
2022
was
for
500
million
dollars
in
grant
funding
to
help
pay
for
450
zebs
and
supporting
infrastructure.
With
a
spend
plan
to
2027..
J
We
lost
the
time
at
the
front
end
of
the
process,
but
also
lost
time
at
the
back
end,
since
the
eligibility
period
for
the
Z
is
z,
ETF
ends
in
March
2026,
whereas
the
CIB
credit
agreement
is
available
until
December
31st
2027..
We
continue
to
have
conversations
with
infc
to
identify
future
funding
opportunities
and
extending
the
timeline
for
this
program,
which
have
all
been
very
positive
next
slide.
J
Furthermore,
CIB
is
taking
the
risk
that
if
the
city
does
not
achieve
the
savings,
we
don't
have
to
pay
back
the
loan,
although
we
must
make
all
commercially
reasonable
efforts
to
achieve
those
savings.
Cib
is
doing
this
to
encourage
municipalities
to
advance
their
Zeb
program
while
significantly
minimizing
the
financial
risks.
J
I
If
we
could
move
to
the
next
slide,
please
so
in
terms
of
the
risks
for
delaying
a
decision
on
moving
forward,
the
funding
will
only
be
available
until
March
2026
for
the
350
million
dollars
that
we
want
to
use
for
the
facility
upgrades
and
for
our
agreements
with
Hydro
wadower
for
the
purchase
of
buses.
So
the
longer
we
delay
the
shorter
the
period
is
to
try
and
implement
the
program
and
take
full
advantage
of
that
funding.
I
The
shortened
time
frame
of
2023-2026
is
due
to
circumstances
beyond
our
control.
Other
municipalities
are
also
receiving
the
zetf
funding
and
like
Hardware,
looking
to
advance
there's
a
procurement
at
the
same
time.
So
there
there
is
a
bit
of
a
crunch
coming
in
terms
of
the
number
of
municipalities
wanting
to
launch
procurement
programs.
I
With
with
the
green
light
on
on
approval
of
the
funding,
we
will
be
able
to
move
forward
with
the
inquiry
agreement,
which
is
for
the
electrical
supply
and
charging
infrastructure
with
Hydro
water.
We
can
move
forward
with
the
procurement
contract
for
the
first
tranche
of
buses.
I
I
D
D
D
F
D
F
Perfect.
Thank
you
good
morning.
Commission.
Thank
you
for
the
opportunity
to
speak
to
you
this
morning.
My
name
is
Joey
seipels
I'm,
a
business
development
specialist
for
underage
gas
I
just
want
to
present
and
ask
the
commission
to
maybe
take
a
step
back
and
consider
renewable
natural
gas
Transit
in
2022.
When
a
Canada's
leading
Transit
Association
key
trick
did
a
study
of
renewable
natural
gas
buses.
F
They
did
it
across
five
North
American
fleets,
and
they
had
several
findings,
including
that
compressed
natural
gas
buses
running
on
renewable
natural
gas
can
be
cleaner
and
cheaper
to
operate
than
battery
electric
and
Fuel
Cell
electric
buses.
In
the
study
they
provide
the
operational
and
maintenance
Savings
of
these
buses,
and
this
is
all
without
government
grants.
Government
funding
include
clean
fuel
standard
credits.
F
F
This
can
result
in
ngvs
or
natural
gas
vehicles
producing
more
greenhouse
gas
emissions
than
battery
electric
buses.
Where's.
This
being
done
in
Ontario,
the
city
of
Hamilton
now
operates
157
natural
gas
buses.
Their
Council
too,
has
voted
to
not
buy
any
more
diesel
buses
and
they're
anticipating
by
2026
to
have
over
300
natural
gas
buses
in
2021
they
announced
Ontario's
first
carbon
negative
bus.
So
the
question
is
you
know
why
breach
for
zero?
F
When
you
can
do
better
the
renewable
natural
gas
story,
you
can
fund
all
the
capital
with
the
savings
be
Net
Zero
or
even
carbon
negative.
You
can
do
this
All
without
government
grants,
government
loans
or
clean
fuel
standard
credits.
So
what
do
you
get
with
a
renewable
natural
gas
Fleet?
You
can
have
a
carbon
neutral,
Fleet
or
lower
carbon.
It's
commercially
ready,
proven
over
one-third
of
buses
procured
across
the
United
States,
our
natural
gas
buses.
F
It
works
for
all
vehicle
sizes,
including
60-foot
buses,
there's
no
range
limitations,
including
in
the
winter
one
for
one
vehicle
replacement.
You
don't
need
to
add
additional
battery
electric
buses
to
cover
the
same
routes
and
you
can
refuel
vehicles
in
minutes.
The
City
of
Calgary
is
able
to
refuel
six
natural
gas
buses
within
five
or
six
minutes,
and
there's
a
reliable
and
stable
fuel
supply
and
I'll
close
things
out
just
for
some
consideration.
The
city
of
Ottawa
has
voted
to
not
to
only
buy
zero
emission
bosses.
F
D
Okay,
thank
you
very
much.
There's
a
couple
questions
from
our
commission
members.
Member
low
is
up
first.
C
Thank
you
chair
and
thank
you
for
your
presentation.
Joey
I
do
have
some
questions
about
the
natural
gas
technology
that
you
highlight.
Hamilton
has
used
Hamilton,
as
you
know,
has
a
very
long
history
using
CNG
and
more
recently,
RNG
buses
and
the
TTC
has
also
had
experience
with
CNG
buses,
but
in
the
mid
90s
early
2000s.
Maybe
they
opted
to
convert
them
to
diesel
because
of
high
costs,
I
mean
as
cost
fuel
costs
Etc.
So
what
is
the
difference
between
the
maintenance
costs
between
CNG
and
RNG?.
F
Yeah,
so
a
natural
gas
bus
cutrick
in
their
study,
found
that
maintenance
is
about
17
percent
lower
in
natural
gas
buses
compared
to
diesel
buses.
A
lot
of
Transit
associations
deployed
natural
gas
in
the
early
90s.
That's
the
early
technology,
the
it
it
natural
gas
bosses
now
don't
have
those
performance
issues.
So
that's
why
you
know
across
British
Columbia,
every
Transit,
Association
and
BC's
running
natural
gas.
Calgary
is
doing
it.
The
the
technology
is
doesn't
have
the
same
performance
issues.
As
you
know,
the
early
90s.
F
K
Tierney
great
thank
you
Mr
chair
and
thank
you
Joy
for
coming
out
just
a
quick
question.
You
say
compressed
natural
gas
I've
seen
my
residential
home
energy
bills
double,
and
you
know
those
wild
fluctuations.
Gasoline
is
the
same,
but
let's
face
it.
Natural
gas
is
extraordinarily
High
rates
right
now.
Is
it
the
same
type
of
fuel
that
would
be
used
in
these
buses.
F
Well,
if
the
goal
is
to
get
to
Net
Zero
you'd
be
using
renewable
natural
gas,
conventional
gas-
yes,
conventional
gas
has
went
up
in
price
on
you
know.
In
energy
terms,
a
giga
Joule
natural
gas
is
around
eight
dollars
a
GJ
diesel
fuels
50
55,
so
the
city
of
Hamilton
is
probably
saving
fifty
sixty
thousand
dollars
per
bus
per
year
on
their
natural
gas
faucets,
but
with
renewable
natural
gas
and
I
believe
the
city
of
Ottawa
produces
some
so
you're.
F
You
could
be
producing
your
own
fuel
for
these
natural
gas
vehicles,
but
even
if
you
were
to
buy
it
outside
of
the
Ottawa
with
a
long-term
agreement,
you
could
be
a
hundred
percent
fuel
hedged.
So
you
know
renewable
natural
gas
is
25
to
35
dollars.
A
giga
Joule,
so
you'd
have
no
volatility
in
your
annual
fuel
budgets,
which
is
a
big
reason
why
the
City
of
Calgary
decided
to
go
with
natural
gas.
F
D
F
L
thousand
kilometers.
As
a
former
General
Motors
parts
manager,
the
cost
to
keep
these
buses
will
be
staggering
the
next
few
years.
Some
of
these
are
so
noisy.
It
is
unbearable.
I
know:
two
bus
drivers
have
recently
got
hearing
aids
installed
when
they
complained
to
the
supervised.
No
one
answers
what
what
noise
I
see.
Things
on
buses
of
the
rattles
are
so
bad
that
I
see
the
safety
pylons
being
wedged
to
stop
some
of
the
noise
and
window
latches
have
been
issued
since
the
start
of
OC
got
these
buses.
L
L
Majority
of
people
with
with
disabilities
and
mobilities
are
dependent
on
transit.
I've,
been
told,
I've
been
told
before
the
pandemic
by
a
superintendent
wanted
to
start
buying
new
purchaser
for
transport
gradually,
you
know
last
year
the
message
has
changed
to
Electro
buses,
but
the
lock
of
other
evaluations.
Some
bigger
truck
companies
are
changing
their
Fleet
over
to
Electric.
It
is
time
to
get
moving.
Last
three
years,
the
debate
on
electric
buses
have
been
been
good
debates,
but
it's
time
to
move
on
and
move
forward
on
this.
Thank
you.
D
M
Thank
you
very
much.
Chair
can
I.
Take
that
out.
Thanks
John
for
your
presentation.
I
just
wanted
to
mention
that
you
know
you
know
a
Transit
tour.
We
had
on
the
paribus
replacement,
it
was
discussed.
You
know.
M
Obviously,
Market
technology
is
a
big
thing
and
and
how
we're
heading
towards
this
direction,
but
I
guess
a
little
more
difficult
for
those
smaller
heavy
duty
vehicles
which
would
align
with
you
know
the
pair
Replacements
I
do
note
that
there's
manufacturers
like
proterra
and
Grand
West
transportation
and
a
few
others
on
the
west
coast
that
are
producing
kind
of
these
smaller
buses
and
so
I
did
ask
OC
transport
staff
to
look
into
the
potential
for
a
replacement
of
some
of
these
para
vehicles
with
with
electric
as
a
potential
pilot.
M
Just
given
your
presentation
about
noise
and
the
the
needed
production
of
these
vehicles
for
for
service,
so
I
just
want
to
ask
your
your
feedback
on
on.
That
is.
Is
that
the
sort
of
thing
you're
looking
for
is
is
at
least
as
we're
piloting
these
other
electric
buses
to
Pilot
on
the
Paris
side
as
well?
If
we're,
if
we're
able
to,
is
that
something
that
you'd
be
interested
in
yes,.
L
I'd
be
interested
in
that
I
know
it's
difficult
right
now,
because
our
buses
are
what
they
call
as
a
50
60
series,
bus
series
and
and
their
little
the
different
design
they're
built
on
their
have
a
chassis,
and
then
they
build
the
cabs
on
top
of
them
and
and
I
think
I
think
yeah.
It
was
time
to
move
on.
We
went
through
the
last
set
of
buses
when
chair
Deans
was
when
Diane
Deans
was
chair.
L
That's
when
we
went
through
the
last
process
of
the
new
buses
and
and
the
noises
and
the
and
the
the
rattles
and
everything
else,
the
even
the
air
air
design
of
these
buses
now
are
starting
to
weaken
so
you're,
starting
to
feel
like
we're
in
the
old
buses
again.
L
N
Thank
you,
John
I
just
wanted
to
thank
you
always
for
your
advocacy
on
Transit
I,
know
you're.
My
resident
of
my
ward
and
you've
always
been
an
invaluable
source
of
information
for
me
with
respect
to
all
sorts
of
issues
relating
to
Transit
and
accessibility.
So
I
just
really
wanted
to
thank
you
for
taking
the
time
to
come
out
today.
D
O
Hello,
can
everyone
hear
me
yes,
excellent?
Thank
you.
I
really
do
appreciate
you
giving
me
the
opportunity
to
speak
today.
My
name
is
Kate
Ric,
community
and
I
come
to
you
on
behalf
of
cnib
and
as
a
member
of
the
fight
loss.
Community
I
wanted
to
raise
a
concern.
I
had
with
the
report,
I
read
through
the
city
staff
report
and
they
mentioned
that
there
are
no
accessibility
issues
with
this
report,
because
the
paratranspo
bus
fleet
is
not
being
updated.
This
is,
in
fact
not
the
case.
O
If
you
will,
let
me
explain
so
as
someone
who
is
blind,
I
use,
environmental,
cues
and
environmental
sounds
to
sort
of
know.
What's
going
on
around
me
and
navigate
Street
safely,
this
includes
the
noises
that
Vehicles,
like
cars,
make.
As
you
may
be
aware,
electric
vehicles
are
a
lot
quieter
than
conventional.
You
know
combustion
engines
and
that
can
make
them.
O
You
know
more
difficult
to
detect,
which
could
actually
be
dangerous
if
I'm
trying
to
cross
the
street
or
such,
and
so
the
battery
electric
buses
do
constitute
an
accessibility
concern
if
they
do
not
make
enough
noise.
O
It's
for
this
reason
why
in
December
22nd
the
government
of
Canada
introduced
regulations
to
require
all
electric
vehicles
to
include
a
acoustic
vehicle,
alerting
system
or
Avis,
so
that
an
electric
vehicle
will
always
make
noise
if
they're
going
20
kilometers
an
hour
or
less
that
way
when
they're
going
faster
than
20
kilometers.
O
The
sort
of
noise
of
the
wind
of
their
passage
is
loud
enough
for
the
vehicle
to
be
detected,
but
when
they're
going
slower
than
that,
electric
vehicles
can
be
nearly
silent,
so
the
Avis
kind
of
steps
in
and
provides
that
auditory
cue,
which
is
important
to
not
only
pedestrians
like
myself,
who
rely
on
that
auditory,
sound,
but
also
others
like
cyclists,
or
you
know,
people
who
may
be
just
a
little
bit
distracted
while
they're
walking
I
was
really
happy
to
see
that
the
pilot,
OC
Transpo
buses
do
have
an
Avis
equipped
I
had
the
opportunity
to
ride
one
of
the
buses
when
they
were
being
piloted
in
the
spring
and
the
Avis
system
on
that
bus
Works
quite
well.
O
So
I
was
really
happy
to
see
that.
But
I
wanted
to
highlight
this
issue,
because
it
is
crucial
that
all
buses
going
forward
in
electric
vehicles
in
general
have
this:
have
this
Avis
system
so
that
they
don't
cause
hazards
to
pedestrians.
O
Road
Safety
is
of
incredible
importance
to
cnib
and
to
the
people
we
work
with,
as
you
can
imagine,
and
city
of
Ottawa
can
help
and
city
council
can
help
by
ensuring
that
the
next
generation
of
publicly
owned
vehicles
does
not
introduce
new
hazards
to
pedestrians,
who
are
blind
or
partially
sighted.
Thank
you.
C
Thank
you
chair
and
thank
you
Kate
for
your
presentation.
There,
pedestrian
Warning
Systems
have
been
important
in
in
helping
people
with
site
difficulties.
No,
no,
where
they
are
and
I
know.
You
use
a
lot
of
environmental
cues
to
to
to
assure
your
safety,
ensure
your
safety.
C
There
were
some
transit
systems
in
Ontario
that
piloted
pedestrian
Warning
Systems
even
on
their
diesel
buses,
so
because
the
engine's
so
far
back
it
some
cases
it
actually
is
required
on.
It
may
be
required
on
diesel
buses
as
well
are.
Are
you
aware
if
the
regulations
that
you
mentioned
for
Avis
are?
Are
they
required
just
yet
by
the
federal
government,
or
is
it
something
you
want
perhaps
Ottawa
to
spearhead?
For
example,.
O
So
I
admit
that
I
have
not
read
the
regulations
in
detail,
as
you
can
imagine,
regulations
can
be
quite
what's
the
word,
looking
quite
quite
detailed
and
so
I'm
not
quite
sure
if
it's
regulations
on
all
new
vehicles
coming
out
or
if
it
pertains
also
to
sort
of
existing
electric
vehicles.
M
Thank
you
very
much
chair.
Thank
you.
So
much
for
the
presentation,
Kate
I
I,
my
understanding
from
a
direction
of
staff
and
a
report
back
is
the
the
current
OC
transport
electric
vehicles
do
have
the
avas
installed
the
four
that
are
there
and
that
our
procurement
I
believe
would
would
ensure
that
the
future
buses
would
also
have
this
technology
in
line
with
the
federal
government's
new
regulations.
M
That's
my
understanding
of
the
way
we're
going,
but
I
will
make
sure
to
to
check
in
with
staff
on
that
question,
when
we
get
to
questions
there
and
any
addition
any
response
to
that,
or
if
that's
your
understanding
as
well,
if
you
wanted
to
mention
anything
in
addition,.
O
Foreign,
yes,
thank
you
like
I,
said
I
just
want
to
make
sure
that
it's
stipulated
in
a
requirement,
because
it's
one
of
those
things
where
I
feel
like.
If
you,
if
you
don't
specifically
ask
for
it,
it's
very
easy
to
miss,
but
it
is
crucial
for
people
like
myself
to
be
safe,
while
traveling
absolutely.
D
Thank
you
and
thank
you
for
making
sure
this
remains
at
the
top
of
our
minds
in
this
conversation.
Thank
you
Kate
for
your
presentation
today,
our
next
speaker.
It's
a
pair
of
speakers.
We
have
Raymond
Leary
and
Mike
Banks
from
the
electric
vehicle
Council
of
Ottawa
I,
see
you're
both
on
the
screen
there.
So
welcome.
P
Thank
you
chair.
Can
you
put
up
the
presentation
please
up
there
we
go.
Thank
you.
So
Mike
is
the
alternate
actually
and
he
could
also
answer
questions.
If
there
are
some
after
but
anyways,
we
are
the
electric
vehicle
Council
of
Ottawa
I'm,
the
president
next
slide.
Please,
and
the
next
slide
talks
about
our
history.
So
evco
is
a
volunteer.
100
volunteer,
non-profit
organization.
We
are,
we
have
no
affiliation
or
funding
from
industry.
P
So,
unlike
one
of
the
previous
presenters
who
was
trying
to
sell
you
on
buying
his
product,
we
have
no
affiliation
at
all
and
no
commercial
interest
behind
this
so
rehire,
subject
matter:
experts
on
EVS
of
all
sizes
and
we've
been
promoting
the
elevation,
the
electrification
of
the
transportation
system,
mainly
to
reduce
greenhouse
gases,
but
also
because
they
are
better
Solutions
next
slide,
please
so
in
terms
of
diesel.
So
there's
no
question
that
diesel
is
dirty.
P
You
know
we
tend
to
think
about
Transit
as
being
something
that's
environmentally
friendly,
but
in
fact,
if
you're
using
diesel
buses,
it's
not
that
environmentally
friendly,
so
bottom
line
is
OC
transport
uses
about
four
liters
of
diesel
to
take
one
passenger.
A
hundred
kilometers-
so
that's
the
average
over
the
years
of
the
year
so
so
to
take
one
passenger,
100
kilometers.
It
takes
four
liters
of
diesel,
which
is
not
very
clean.
So
it's
it's
obvious.
We
need
to
go
to
something
cleaner
next
slide.
Please
and
energy.
P
Evolution
Miss,
Samuel
car
already
talked
about
this,
so
the
transit
Fleet
accounts
for
a
full
52
of
the
corporate
emissions
that
the
the
city
has
or
not
addressing
Transit
in
a
timely
manner
is,
is,
is
going
to
make
the
city
miss
those
targets
that
have
been
adopted
by
Council
a
few
years
ago
as
part
of
the
climate
emergency
declaration
and
energy
Evolution
project
next
slide,
please
so
in
terms
of
cost
I've
seen
some
op-eds
that
seem
to
question
cost
savings
and
I
think
Ms,
amoker
also-
and
others
have
talked
about
this,
so
we
expect
maintenance
this.
P
These
are
numbers
that
we
developed
about
four
years
ago.
When
we
first
got
involved
in
this
project.
We
expect
twenty
thousand
dollars
per
year
or
so
of
Maintenance
savings,
because
electric
motors
are
much
much
simpler
and
brakes
last
much
longer
fuel
costs.
We
were
estimating
a
few
years
back
about
three
thousand
thirty
thousand
dollars
a
saving
per
bus
per
year.
What
the
TTC
has
estimated
before
price
increases
in
diesel
is
that
they
expect
to
save
somewhere
around
60
000
per
year
on
diesel
costs.
P
Now
they
run
their
buses
a
bit
harder
than
we
do
here
in
Ottawa,
so
that
that's
part
of
the
explanation
but
I
really
believe
that,
given
the
increase
in
diesel
prices,
that
number
is
closer
to
50
000
today,
so
total
savings
is
seven
hundred
fifty
thousand
dollars
per
bust
up
to
over
a
million
over
the
15-year
lifetime
of
the
bus.
So
that's
a
lot
of
money
that
can
be
reinvested
in
other
stuff,
including
buying
more
buses
and
providing
enhanced
Services.
P
It
was
also
mentioned
by
Ms
amolkar
that
ebus
prices
are
expected
to
reduce
the
current
premium.
That's
paid
for
e-buses
is
due
to
the
batteries
and
battery
prices
continue
to
decline
over
time
and
Bloomberg
nef
has
projected
that
diesel.
So
sorry,
a
new
ebuses,
including
the
battery,
will
be
at
Price
parity
with
diesel
buses
by
2030..
That's
only
seven
years
in
the
future.
Next
slide,
please
so
Ottawa
is
actually
a
laggard
on
this
file
has
has
been
already
discussed.
P
So
the
good
news
there
is
that
there
are
others
who
have
done
the
tests
and
the
pilots
and
the
technology
has
matured
the
buses
we
have
are
the
second
generation
of
the
electric
buses
from
New
Flyer.
There's
no
need
to
reinvent
the
wheel.
Here.
Everybody
is
going
electric.
We
need
to
just
do
the
same
thing,
because
it's
what
makes
sense
next
slide
please.
P
So
in
conclusion,
Ottawa
has
the
ability
to
reduce
its
corporate
emissions
by
52
percent,
which
is
what
the
buses
contribute.
Yes,
there
is
a
temporary
Reliance
on
some
auxiliary
heating
using
diesel.
That
problem
will
go
away
in
time
as
batteries
get
bigger
and
allow
electric
heat
to
replace
diesel.
P
Ottawa
could
also
save
a
whole
bunch
of
money,
so
50
million
to
to
75
million
dollars
per
year
of
operational
costs
by
doing
what's
right
for
the
planet.
So
if
you're
a
counselor
or
commissioner,
who
cares
about
the
environment?
Well,
we're
going
to
reduce
emissions
by
quite
a
bit
with
this
project
and,
if
you
care
about
money,
well
we're
going
to
save
a
whole
bunch
of
money
at
the
same
time.
Thank
you
and
next
slide.
Please
Ashley
thanks.
M
Thanks
very
much
chair,
thank
you
for
your
presentation,
Raymond
I
guess.
My
one
question
is
on
the
procurement
of
new
vehicles
and
your
recommendation.
Around
technology.
You've
previously
spoken
to
commission
around
technology
and
the
charging
that
the
charging
infrastructure
gave
recommendations,
I
think
OC
Transpo
was
in
line
with
what
you
were
recommending,
I
believe
in
the
pilot
and
where
we
would
go
in
the
future.
Just
just
wondering
your
your
recommendations.
Around
technology
in
procurement.
P
Well,
so
we're
we're
technology
agnostic
in
terms
of
the
charging
mechanisms
used
for
the
buses
right.
What
we
do
care
about
as
responsible
taxpayers
is
the
cost
associated
with
that
charging
infrastructure.
So
you
know
so
the
question
for
us
is:
is
there's
two
possibilities
right
using
the
the
solution.
That's
been
adopted
by
we'll
see
transport
using
the
pantographs
and
there's
the
more
traditional
plug-in
system
that's
available,
and
for
us
it's
really
a
question
of
cost.
P
So
we
think
that
OC
transport
should
carefully
study
the
situation
and
look
at
what
is
the
the
cheapest
alternative.
I
think
they're
telling
us
that
pantograph
is
not
any
more
expensive.
That's
not
the
numbers
I've
seen
but
anyways
that
that's
the
concern
we
have
there,
both
Solutions,
as
we
saw
in
the
presentation,
excellent
presentation
by
the
way
from
the
from
staff,
have
the
same
150
50
kilowatt
capacity.
So
there's
no
difference
in
charging
times.
P
There
is
a
difference
in
terms
of
placement,
especially
in
existing
facilities,
where
pantographs
have
an
advantage,
because
they're
out
of
the
way
they're
on
the
ceiling
right,
whereas
if
you're
installing
floor
mounted
units
with
plugs,
you
have
to
have
space
for
those
and
all
that
so
so
there
are
some
trade-offs
there
and
I
expect
that
OC
transport
has
done
some
some
calculating
of
that
and
has
opted
for
the
the
lowest
cost
solution.
Okay,
thank
you,
chair,
okay,.
C
Commissioner
Lowe
thank
you
chair
and
thanks
for
your
presentation,
there,
Raymond
and
and
Mike
my
questions
about
the
end
of
life
for
these
Lithium-ion
batteries.
Does
you
know
each
of
our
e-buses
have
six
relatively
large
Lithium-ion
batteries
and
the
material
in
them
is
95
recyclable.
However,
I
do
note
that
right
now
there
aren't
many
opportunities
to
do
that
recycling
here
at
least
locally,
perhaps
I'm
ignorant
to
their
being
they're
being
existing
facilities
to
do
that.
C
But
do
you
foresee
that
becoming
an
issue,
especially
if
the
batteries
don't
last
the
full
life
of
the
bus,
and
we
have
to
replace
the
Mad
mid
life.
P
We
don't
see,
we
don't
see
that
as
being
an
issue.
Actually
there
are
many
recycling
plants
already
in
operation.
The
biggest
one
is
probably
Redwood
materials
in
California.
That's
recycling
rejects
from
from
Tesla
production
production
lines.
However,
there
are
other
projects,
one
in
Kingston
in
particular,
and
I'm
I
I
can't
remember
the
name
off
the
top
here,
but
they're
already
recycling
batteries
in
Kingston.
So
there
are
local
operations
that
are
doing
that
de
Fasco
in
Hamilton
was
talking
about
doing
that.
Also
so
right.
P
Now
the
challenge
really
for
recyclers
to
make
a
business
case
to
recycle
the
recycle
batteries
is
not
the
the
the
process
and
all
that
it's
more
the
supply
of
use
batteries.
There
aren't
that
many
used
batteries
available
for
for
recycling
so
because
batteries
are
actually
lasting
longer
than
we
thought
now
for
the
OC
OC
transport
batteries
in
the
buses,
one
possible
able
to
use
would
be
to
once
the
the
batteries
don't
have
enough
capacity
to
be
in
a
bus.
It's
in
service.
P
They
still
would
have
enough
capacity
to
serve
as
storage
on-site
storage
at
the
garages
where
that
storage
could
be
used
to
as
a
backup
to
charge
the
buses.
If
there's
a
power,
failure
or
a
store,
perhaps
energy
from
roof
mounted
solder
on
top
of
the
garages
during
the
day,
while
the
buses
are
out
on
the
road
and
then
use
that
energy
to
charge
the
buses
at
night
right,
so
so
that
that
fixed
storage
capability
of
those
used
batteries
is
an
important
thing
to
consider.
P
Given
that
at
some
point
in
the
future,
OC
transport
will
have
a
considerable
amount
of
batteries
that
will
be
removed
from
buses.
So
the
buses
are
more
likely
to
to
be
end
of
life
themselves.
The
chassis
itself
is
more
likely
to
be
end
of
life
before
the
batteries
than
the
battery,
so
that
so
the
batteries
will.
It
will
have
a
lot
of
value
once
the
the
bus
itself
is
is
end
of
life.
P
D
Okay,
thank
you,
Raymond
and
thank
you
Mike
for
joining
us
as
well.
We'll
move
on
to
our
fifth
and
final
speaker,
Angela
Keller
Herzog
good
morning,
Angela.
Q
Good
morning,
thank
you
very
much.
Q
This
special
meeting
was
came
came
very
fast,
so
so
perhaps
we
haven't
had
a
chance
to
prepare
as
in
depth
as
we
would
like,
but
thank
you
very
much
for
seeing
public
delegations.
My
name
is
Angela
Keller
Herzog
I'm,
the
executive
director
of
cafes,
which
is
a
community
associations
for
environmental
sustainability,
and
we
have
a
network
of
people
from
over
50
Community
associations,
including
rural,
suburban
and
urban
neighborhoods.
Q
I
would
like
to
speak
in
support
of
the
staff
recommendations
and
make
some
additional
recommendations
to
the
Transit
Commission,
so
that
we
can
put
this
special
meeting
to
good
use.
I
would
like
to
first
of
all
note
four
contextual
facts.
Firstly,
about
the
procurement
the
city
of
Ottawa
auditor
took
an
interest
in
this
file
and,
in
these
pre-audits
have
scrutinized
and
improved
the
procurement
approach,
and
we're
very
happy
about
that,
especially
in
light
of
the
difficulties
that
the
city
has
had
in
in
procurement
of
Transit.
Q
The
fact
that
we're
now
pairing
with
the
city
of
Toronto,
given
that
the
city
of
Toronto
is
ahead
of
us
in
its
procurement
work
on
bus
fleet
and
doubling
up
on
their
resources,
seems
to
us
both
efficient,
as
well
as
giving
us
a
higher
level
of
assurance
that
procurement
is
being
handled
correctly
and
that
we're
getting
good
buses
that
are
fit
for
the
job.
Secondly,
about
cost
Effectiveness.
Q
It's
pretty
well
known
that
electric
motors
require
far
less
maintenance
than
internal
combustion
engines
and
their
significant
operating
cost
savings
from
not
having
to
buy
the
fuel.
So
I've
read
that
each
one
of
these
new
buses
will
have
cost
Savings
of
about
50
000
per
year
and
with
the
Federal
Grant
and
Loan
contributions.
Q
Thirdly,
in
terms
of
health,
it's
clear
that
these
buses
will
not
be
belching
fumes,
so
the
the
air
in
our
city
will
be
clearer,
including
for
people
that
are
walking
or
using
bikes
in
the
inner
city
alongside
buses.
And
fourth,
as
mentioned
already
about
climate
action,
we
have
declared
a
climate
emergency.
Climate
change
is
very
real
and
this
is
a
climate
action
that
gets
us
off
fossil
fuel,
so
I
think
it's
a
low-hanging
fruit.
Q
There
are
about
900
buses
in
the
current
Transit
Fleet
and
we
are
talking
about
a
growing
city,
as
we
know
from
from
planning
and
housing
discussions,
and
we
need
better
Transit,
more
reliable,
regular
and
convenient
service,
so
we
will
need
more
buses
and,
as
our
neighboring
City
Kingston
has
convincingly
demonstrated,
ridership
will
increase
with
better
service.
Q
So
why
is
the
procurement
plan
for
only
350
buses
I?
Think
the
initial
discussion
was
450.
Can
we
not
get
perhaps
more
funds
and
more
support
if
we
have
a
larger
scale,
so
I
would
propose
that
the
Transit
Commission
tasks
staff
with
the
following
four
things:
firstly,
to
remodel
the
optimal
transition
of
the
bus
fleet?
Q
Do
the
life
cycle
analysis
of
the
existing
Fleet,
including
scenarios
on
different
diesel
prices,
consider
an
accelerated
electrification,
consider
not
spending
on
the
refurbishment
of
diesel
infrastructure
and
consider
also
the
conversion
of
the
existing
buses
from
diesel
into
electric
I
think.
Secondly,
we
should
be
instructing
OC,
Transpo
and
the
city
finance
department
to
continue
to
seek
clone
and
grant
opportunities
from
other
levels
of
government
and
make
a
similar.
Thirdly,
make
a
similar
plan
for
the
para
Fleet,
as
has
been
suggested
and
then
come
back
to
the
Transit
Commission
in
a
year.
Q
From
now,
with
this
analysis-
and
you
might
say,
what's
the
hurry
well
I
remember
conversations
with
Catherine
McKenna.
That
was
regretting
that
the
city
of
Ottawa
was
leaving
money
on
the
table,
and
it
might
be
that
in
a
few
years
we
will
not
have
a
federal
government
that
is
willing
to
subsidize,
to
this
degree,
so
moving
faster
could
mean
Millions
for
the
overall
budget
of
the
city
of
Ottawa.
Thank
you.
D
R
Commissioner
Lieber
thanks
Angela
thanks
for
an
excellent
presentation
and
thanks
for
the
support
of
the
staff
report.
Sorry,
you
mentioned
one
of
the
potential
areas
of
freeing
up
some
additional
procurement
money
might
be
through
for
stalling
or
not
doing.
Refurbishment
of
the
diesel
infrastructure
can.
Can
you
give
me
some
color
on
that.
Q
Q
Maybe
he
can
give
us
a
cost
estimate
on
that,
but
where
there
are
choices
of
investing
in
refurbishment
or
a
conversion
or
switching
the
money
to
to
Electric
purchases,
I
think
that
once
we
consider
the
financial,
the
environmental,
the
health
issues,
I
think
we
should
analyze
that
for
sure,
because
I
mean,
if
you're
investing
tax
dollars
in
refurbishment
in
Old
diesel
buses,
that's
really
investing
in
fossil
fuel
infrastructure
all
over
again
and
locking
Us
in
for
another.
What
10,
15
20
years.
R
Yeah,
no
disagreement
and
I'm
sorry
I.
Think
I
must
talk
diesel
infrastructure
as
as
a
fueling
infrastructure
as
a
so
you're,
not
aware
of
some
big
Capital
project
to
refurbish
our
fueling
infrastructure
at
at
the
garage
or
anything
like
that.
Q
M
Thank
you
chair
just
very
quickly.
Thanks
Angela
for
the
presentation,
I've
noted
down
some
of
the
pieces,
which
I
will
ask
staff
and
and
see
what
answers
we
get.
Can
you
just
send
me?
Can
you
just
email
me
the
the
presentation
points
that
you
mentioned
I
think
there
were
four
there
and
I
got
I
got
three
down,
but
I
want
to
make
sure
I've
got
them
all.
So
if
you
could
just
send
those
to
me,
yeah.
T
Yeah,
thank
you
very
much,
a
great
discussion
and
great
presentation.
Thank
you
very
much,
certainly
a
lot
of
clarity
for
me
in
terms
of
the
the
depth
of
the
program
that
we're
looking
at
and
the
function
that
we
need
to
serve
here
as
the
commission
as
we
look
at
this
this
report
and
give
it
due
consideration
to
to
how
we're
going
to
proceed
in
terms
of
what
Council
requires
in
order
to
unlock
the
funding,
that's
required
for
you
to
move
forward.
T
T
The
first
piece
is
that
we're
looking
at
climate
considerations
for
the
city
and
our
obligations
from
a
stewardship
of
the
environment
perspective
going
forward
while
at
the
same
time
we're
looking
at
real-time
bus
fleet
life
cycle
concerns
in
that
we
have
buses
that
right
now
need
replacement.
T
Where
We
Are
I
want
to
start
really
with
kind
of
the
basics
here,
I,
don't
know
if
the
staff
presentation
is
available
to
be
to
be
put
up,
but
I
wouldn't
mind.
Looking
at
slide,
six
I
think
that's
where
we
talk
about
the
zero
Mission
bus
definitions
and
such.
T
Okay,
so
my
takeaway
from
this
slide
is
that
what
was
presented
to
the
Transit
Commission
pre
this
term
was
that
we
are
looking
to
prioritize
options
for
our
replacement
Fleet,
based
on
looking
towards
lower
lower
emission
options,
but
we're
defining
which
options
were
or
were
not
viable,
based
on
whether
or
not
they
were
producing
emissions.
And
what
I'm
seeing
here
is
that
hydroelectric,
hybrid
electric
compressed
natural
gas,
renewable
natural
gas
buses
were
not
recommended,
as
they
were
not
zero
emission
and
therefore
did
not
meet
the
council's
policy
Direction.
I
Thank
you
chair.
Thank
you
for
the
question,
so
that
is
correct,
that
that
is
one
of
the
reasons
there
were
other
considerations
as
well
that
were
provided
for
in
that
report.
So
we
are
looking
to
move
forward
with
a
program,
utilizing
technology
that
that
has
been
well
tested
and
well
used
around
the
world
and
that
offers
multiple
manufacturers
and
suppliers
of
that
technology.
I
One
of
the
challenges
with
the
hybrid
electric,
the
natural
gas
and
the
new
renewable
gas
Alternatives
is
there's
not
the
same
kind
of
maturity
in
the
market
as
there
is
with
electric
buses.
Electric
battery
buses
are
very
much
in
demand
across
the
world,
and
manufacturers
are
meeting
that
challenge
so
there
when
we
do
go
to
procurement
there
are.
There
are
several
more
options
available
to
us,
so
that
is
another
consideration.
I
On
top
of
the
the
comment
that
was
provided
there,
that
they
are
not
zero
omission
and
they
do
not
meet
the
council
policy.
Direction.
T
Thank
you
so
just
a
follow-up
to
that,
though.
I
think
I
heard
subsequently
that
the
zero
emission
bus
system
that
we
piloted
does
have
an
emission
component
through
its
diesel
supplementary
or
auxiliary
heater.
T
I
G
U
U
G
U
They're
officially
considered
to
be
zero
Mission
buses,
but
there's
a
specific
factor
that
a
component,
that's
included
for
Northern
countries
to
maintain
range.
We've
decided
that
we
have
to
use
a
diesel
heating,
but
they
are
considered
as
zero
emission
buses
across
the
world.
That's
the
definition
we're
using
and
it's
used
across
the
world
capacity.
T
I
note
that
you
know
2025,
we
see
us,
we
see
a
decline
in
the
total
number
of
vehicles
and
I
also
note
that
the
electric
vehicle
requirements
sees
this
being
I,
think
it's
40
passengers
over
there
about,
but
it's
less
than
certainly
the
articulated
buses
or
the
double
deck
buses
that
we
have
so
we're
going
to
see.
A
reduction
in
overall
ridership
capacity
am
I
correct
in
interpreting
that
as
such
and
do
we
do.
T
We
know
what
that
will
look
like
in
terms
of
of
lost
seats
on
on
our
Transit
System.
I
Thank
you
chair
for
the
question
that
this
slide
is
indicative.
It
was
used
in
the
2021
presentation
as
the
plan
moving
forward.
We
will
come
back
with
a
more
accurate
slide
that
represents
the
plan,
a
future
Transit
Commission
meetings,
but
to
to
to
kind
of
expand
on
the
discussion
about
capacity
the
the
buses
that
we
are
looking
to
move
forward
with.
Initially,
the
first
tranche
of
the
26
buses
are
40
foot
buses
and
so
in
our
engagement
with
the
with
TTC,
their
procurement
is
for
40-foot
buses.
I
We
will
review
the
the
current
situation
and
the
optimization
of
routes
and
that
and
the
demand
for
Transit
throughout
this
year
and
next
year
and
every
year,
and
we
will
make
decisions
in
the
future
about
how
many
more
40-foot
buses
to
buy
and
how
many
more
potentially
60-foot
articulated
buses
to
buy
and
potentially
double
decker
buses.
We're
not
at
that
point
now
at
this
point
in
the
program
with
what
we
are
aware
of,
we
want
to
move
forward
with
just
the
26
40-foot
buses.
H
H
I
would
like
to
ask:
maybe
Pat
is
in
charge
of
the
planning.
So
can
you
just
complete
the
explanation?
Please
Mercy.
V
Mr
chair
the
the
quantity
of
bus
reduction-
that's
shown
there
in
2025
is
related
to
the
opening
of
the
otrain
extensions
to
the
East
and
to
the
West,
both
of
which
will
replace
large
parts
of
the
bus
Network.
It's
not
that
total
Fleet
size
reduction
that
you
see
on
that
page
is
not
related
to
the
energy
source
of
the
propulsion.
V
Now,
as
Richard
said
earlier,
that
chart
is
from
was
prepared
earlier
and
so
lessons
of
the
pandemic
and
current
right,
current
and
future
ridership
and
the
next
long-range
financial
plan
for
Transit,
we'll
all
have
a
a
an
influence
on
the
long-term
Fleet
plan
that
we
recommend
to
Council
in
future.
D
T
Council
Hill
on
slide
21.
There
are
some
there's
some
information
there
with
regard
to
the
pilot
report
and
I
just
wanted
to
I
guess
drill
a
little
bit
into
some
of
the
specifics.
If
we
could
go
to
slide,
21
I
think
it
is.
T
I
and
I
guess
I'll:
just
is
there
a?
Is
there
actually
a
hard
report
that
is
available?
That
gives
the
the
data
and
the
the
trends
and
outcomes
from
the
actual
pilot
that
is
available.
I
Thank
you
chair
for
the
question.
I
I
will
ask
my
colleague
Dan
to
provide
a
response
to
that.
Please,
foreign.
W
Program
manager
overseeing
the
zero
Mission
bus
program,
so
the
question
is:
if
there's
a
report
that
talks
about
the,
can,
you
repeat
the
question
again:
sorry.
T
I
apologize,
I,
I
have
I,
came
from
a
federal,
a
job
before
this,
where
I
was
involved
in
some
procurement
and
such
and
I
just
I
wanted
to
follow
up
on
the
function
of
the
pilot.
In
that
my
experience
would
be
if
we're
going
to
run
an
r
d
type
program
or
a
pilot
program
designed
to
get
data
and
outputs
that
that
there
there
would
be
a
program
with
which
we
would
be
able
to
see
that
and
I
know.
T
We've
gotten
good
data
this
morning,
in
verbally
and
by
slides,
but
I
would
think
that
there's
some
kind
of
a
technical
report
or
an
actual
document
that
that
denotes
specifically
what
the
outcomes
were
from
this
pilot
project
and
I,
would
say.
I
believe
Toronto
has
done
the
same
in
their
in
their
pilot
programming
and
so
I.
Just
I
wanted
to
confirm
if
we've
done
that,
so
that
we
could
take
a
look
at
that
data.
W
Yeah
so
we've
gathered
the
data,
we've
run
the
buses
in
different
climate
temperatures
throughout
the
city
of
Ottawa,
we've
partnered
up
with
the
NRC
for
water
containers
and
We've,
ran
the
buses
on
different
routes
to
gather
that
range
and
performance.
There
is
not
a
report
at
this
point
and
we've
committed
to
bring
that
data
back
to
the
next
Transit,
Commission
or
even
I
believe
the
March
Transit
Commission.
W
T
Just
to
follow
up
that
as
an
example
of
what
I
would
be
interested
in
I
would
like
to
look
at
the
beetroot
of
one
of
those
hybrid
vehicles
that
were
on
the
pilot.
You
know
on
a
given
day.
T
Did
it
start
in
you
know
75
route
out
at
Marketplace,
it
went
downtown,
then
it
went
and
got
charged
and
then
it
went
out
to
Orleans
and
did
a
run
total
kilometers
for
the
day
where
X
you
know
total
battery
at
the
end
of
day
was
why
and
then
a
comparable
to
what
would
that
similar
sister
route
have
been
if
it
was
a
diesel
or
if
it
was
or
whatever
the
other
system
and
just
to
provide
that
comparable?
T
So
that's
the
reason
I
asked
the
question
I'm
interested
in
the
confirm
the
the
mean.
Could
you
maybe
go
back
one
slide?
There
was
a
mean
maintenance
slide
of
I.
Think
twelve
thousand
right
there
I
don't
understand
why
we
set
The
Benchmark
there
at
12,
000
I,
believe
Toronto's
requirement
hard
requirement
for
their
ebus
replacement
or
their
their.
Their
procurement
program
was
thirty
thousand
and
then
in
the
process
of
their
pilot.
T
They
actually
the
the
program,
went
above
that,
based
on
the
the
conditions
that
they
were
running
it
in
so
I'm
I
am
concerned
to
see
that
the
actual
pilot
that
we
ran
saw
the
average
mean
distance
failure
at
just
over
twelve
thousand,
when
I
believe
the
same
reporting
in
Toronto.
Has
it
has
it
substantially
above
thirty
thousand
so
I
just
wanted
to
I?
I
Okay,
thank
you
chair
for
the
observation.
We
we
deliberately
used
a
comparison
with
with
the
data
that
we
have
from
Ottawa
so
that
we're
able
to
compare
like
with
like.
So
it
is
a
industry
standard
measure
of
reliability,
but
you
have
to
take
into
account
the
different
types
of
fleets,
the
different
length
of
time
for
the
for
the
for
for
a
pilot
phase.
For
instance,
Toronto
had
a
bigger
pilot
program
over
a
longer
period
with
more
extensive
data.
We
have.
I
We
have
data
from
12
months
for
four
buses,
so
it's
it's
challenging
to
to
be
to
to
take
comparisons
from
the
city
of
Ottawa
to
to
other
locations,
especially
on
on
a
pilot
basis.
So
we've
we've
brought
back
the
information
to
indicate
that
compared
to
our
our
existing
fleets,
the
the
e-bus
is
performing
well.
Okay,.
T
Thank
you
in
terms
of
safety
and
reliability,
certainly
I'm
concerned
with
any
new
technology
we
bring
on
that
it
that
it
will
meet
the
the
basic
measures
that
we
have.
What
I've
seen
today
is
that
there
is
a
belief
that
we
are
in
that
space.
This
is
a
safe
technology,
but
I
have
seen,
and
there
were
reports
in
the
last
year
of
several
different
cities,
I
believe
Paris
and
Northeastern.
T
Us
I
think
it
was
in
Connecticut
where
there
were
spontaneous
combustion
fires
with
some
of
these
types
of
vehicles
and
I
just
wanted
to
confirm
that
we've
we've
cross-referenced
those
safety
related
incidents,
and
we
understand
that
there's
not
a
significant
potential
issue
that
we
could
foresee
with
this
battery
system
on
these
electric
buses.
H
Mr
Mayor
we're
doing
benchmarking
with
other
cities
effectively
and
maybe
I
would
I
would
ask
Dan
will
love
to
comment.
Those
incidents
and
I
I
have
my
chief
Swift
officer
online
as
well.
I
will
invite
him
after
to
comment.
W
I,
thank
you
Mr
Mayor,
for
the
question,
so
we
are
working
with
the
bus
manufacturers
to
understand
what's
happening
in
the
other
cities
Plus.
On
top
of
that,
we
are
working
as
we
are
moving
forward
with
the
program,
we're
looking
at
every
opportunity
to
increase
potential
safety
items
within
our
facilities,
and
that's
why
Richard
had
mentioned
earlier:
increasing
our
sprinkler
systems
and
so
on.
W
I
Thank
thank
you
chair,
maybe
just
to
supplement
the
answer
from
my
colleagues
and
that
there
are
several
different
types
of
battery
technologies
that
are
in
use
by
agencies
around
the
world.
The
Battery
Technology
that
was
involved
in
the
fire
in
France,
is
a
different
type
of
lithium
battery.
Compared
to
the
battery
that
we
are
utilizing
on
our
pilot
program
and
and
different
to
the
type
that
we
are
expecting
to
be
purchasing
purchasing
as
part
of
our
Fleet
moving
forward.
D
S
Thanks
very
much
chair
within
our
safety
management
system
at
OC
Transpo,
the
second
pillar
in
that
system
involves
risk
management
and
so
with
the
objective
of
the
safety
management
system
to
continuously
seek
opportunities
for
reducing
or
eliminating
harm.
Risk
management
plays
a
very
important
role
whenever
we
have
a
change
to
equipment,
change
to
a
process
change
in
operations,
and
we
we
have
a
risk
management
methodology
that
we
use,
and
my
folks
I
have
a
safety
electrical
safety
engineer
who
is
working
with
Danville
navs
program
and
together.
S
We
are
evaluating
potential
hazards
that
we
foresee
potentially
being
involved
in
this
type
of
of
change,
to
facilities
and
to
equipment,
and
we
are
doing
our
best
to
to
evaluate
those
hazards
and
look
for
opportunities
in
the
early
design
phase
for
mitigations
to
substantially
reduce
or
eliminate
those
hazards.
U
T
You
wheelchair
one
last
question,
then
on
slide
27,
it
speaks
to
the
timeline
and,
and
just
very
generally
I-
think
I
heard
it
in
sprinkled
throughout
the
discussion,
but
I
want
to
confirm
we.
We
have
an
off-ramp
in
the
future
and
I
just
want
to
make
sure
that
it's
baked
into
any
decision
that
goes
forward.
That,
should
we
find
ourselves
in
a
situation
where
there
is
an
unsatisfactory
operational
performance
issue
or
we're
concerned
that
we
are
not.
You
know
over
the
next.
T
T
We
want
to
do
more
advantageous,
taking
advantage
of
good
programming,
but
if
we
get
ourselves
in
the
situation
where
we
find
that
you
know
what
this
specific
procurement
mechanism
or
this
specific
supplier
is
not
meeting
the
mail
that
we
have
the
ability
to
off-ramp
and
move
to
something
different
and
we
have
a
plan.
B
and
I
asked
the
question
because
feel
it
right
now
we're
going
through
this
process.
T
There
really
is
no
plan
B,
because
we're
trying
to
do
many
things
at
once
to
to
get
to
go
forward,
so
I
just
want
to
make
sure
going
forward
in
a
year
or
two
from
now,
when
we
come
back
to
look
at
the
progress
that
we've
made
on
this
program,
that
we
have
the
ability
at
that
time
to
say:
okay,
maybe
there's
some
issues,
and
this
is
how
we
want
to
adjust.
H
Chair,
yes,
the
answer
is
yes,
and
we
commit
to
come
here
at
the
Transit
Commission
to
make
follow-up
with
the
counselors
to
make
sure
that
you
are
supportive
of
our
actions.
Thank
you.
D
U
On
current
electric
bus
generation
says
the
auxiliary
heater
right,
I
think
I
heard
a
remote
talk
about
a
replacement
for
that
generator
right
and
when
Battery
Technology
will
have
advanced
to
sufficiently.
When
we
have
a
new
generation
of
batteries.
Is
that
right
did
I
hear
correctly.
U
U
While
we're
looking
at
the
industry
to
see
whether
battery
capacity
will
increase
and
whether
we
will
have
the
the
opportunity
to
increase
capacity
for
the
required
distances
or
required
range
and
we're
looking
to
see
whether
we
can
actually
remove
this
heater,
if
that's
possible
with
something
we
will
do,
is
this
something
that
could
happen
the
next
few
years
or
is
it
far
away?
Well,
it
really
depends
on
the
technology
and
the
advancement
of
Battery
Technology.
U
R
Failures
are
there
any
other
kpis
that
you're
tracking,
with
respect
to
those
failures
when
a
bus
fails
an
electric
bus
fails,
does
it
take
longer
to
repair?
Is
it
shorter
to
repair?
I
I
There
have
been
issues
not
with
the
electrical
supply
system,
but
more
mechanically,
and
so
new
flyer
is
working
with
us
on
a
redesign
of
the
suspension
system
for
the
bus,
and
that
is
that
learning
exercise
is
being
moved
into
our
procurement
for
any
future
buses.
So
the
experience
that
we've
had
is
that
the
the
the
the
reliability
issues
that
we
have
experienced
are
related
to
the
mechanical
systems
on
the
bus
and
not
with
the
electrical
charging
system.
R
I
With
the
example
that
I'm
discussing
now,
this
particular
issue
with
the
design
of
the
suspension
system,
then
it
it
does
not
matter
whether
it's
an
electric
bus
or
whether
it's
a
diesel
bus.
I
It
still
takes
the
same
amount
of
time
to
repair
and
that's
partly
because
of
the
location,
but
that
there
could
be
situations
where
we
have
to
utilize
our
trained
staff
who
are
trained
to
work
on
an
electric
bus,
because
the
safety
considerations
are
quite
different,
working
on
an
electric
bus
compared
to
a
diesel
bus,
and
so
there
are
situations
where
there
there
would
be
a
different
way
of
addressing
mechanical
mechanical
issues
and
maintenance
issues.
R
R
Yeah
so
I
I,
guess
I'm
I'm
concerned
that
we
don't
have
stats
in
front
of
us.
That
say
the
the
buses
fail
less
often,
but
when
they
do
fail,
I'd
be
interested
to
know
you
know
is.
Is
that
repair
time
similar?
Is
that
repair
time
longer?
Is
that
repair
time
less.
H
Jared,
if
you're
me,
I
have
Jim
Greer
he's
on
the
call
so
he's
in
charge
of
the
maintenance.
So
maybe
he
can
comment
thanks.
D
Just
one
moment
we'll
be
able
to
bring
him
in.
X
Hello,
how
are
you
counselor?
So
yes,
I,
apologize,
I
was
just
invited
in
as
a
panelist
here,
so
I
was
I
was
sitting
as
an
attendee
the
as
far
as
the
bus
down
time
on
the
units,
Richard
is
correct.
Most
of
the
time
for
the
last
year
we've
been
steering
the
buses
and
the
maintenance
of
the
buses
to
our
trained
staff
that
have
been
there.
So
the
the
problems
of
mechanical
failures
that
we've
been
seeing
have
been
turned
around
rather
quickly
consistent
with
the
diesel
buses
that
we
had.
X
Obviously,
these
buses
are
new,
so
we're
not
seeing
many
defects
like
a
vehicle,
while
it's
under
warranty
that
the
vehicles
are
are
being
reliable,
but
as
far
as
the
turnaround
time
in
the
garage
they've
been,
the
guys
have
been
doing
a
great
job
of
getting
them
back
into
service
and
they've
been
running
average
kilometers
comparable
to
a
diesel
bus.
So
I
I,
don't
believe
once
our
staff
is
completely
trained
up
and
familiar
and
all
the
safety
aspects
are
completely
followed
that
the
downtime
should
be
consistent
with
what
we're
seeing
window.
R
Okay,
okay,
that's
that's
comforting.
I
know
my
colleagues
have
lots
of
other
questions,
so
I'll
leave
it
there
thanks.
Y
Thanks
chair
and
thank
you
to
you,
chair
and
his
staff
for
going
through
the
contortions
to
to
organize
this
meeting,
that
I
think
is
important
to
to
have
an
opportunity
to
hear
from
delegations
and
give
some
opportunity
to
public
to
react
between
what
we
do
today
and
the
council
meeting.
So
thank
you
for
doing
that.
Y
I
just
you
know,
I
appreciate
that
where,
where
this
is
about
the
acquisition
of
the
of
the
fleet,
but
part
of
that
is
also
the
the
infrastructure,
that's
needed
to
support
that,
and
when
we
talk
about
climate
change,
you
know
part
of
the
strategy
is
to
to
adapt
and
to
mitigate,
and
we
know
from
the
recent
NCC
report
that
you
know
we
can
expect
likely
warmer
temperatures
more
rain,
more
freezing
rain
and
I
think
there's
a
concern
with
residents
that
you
know
how
reliable
will
our
electricity
grid
be
and
if
there
are
significant
outage,
how
will
that
affect?
Y
You
know
our
first
infrastructure
so
that
the
the
transit
Fleet
is
not
not
grounded
so
I
guess
that's!
My
first
question
is
you
know
what
what
how
do
we
sort
of
respond
to
potentially
the
situations
where
you
know
there
may
be
more
outages
in
the
grid
as
much
as
we
don't
want
that.
I
Thank
you
chair
for
the
question.
The
infrastructure
work
which
is
being
undertaken
in
conjunction
with
Hydro
wadower
at
our
facility,
will
include
redundancy
to
the
electrical
supply
system,
so
we
will
have
dual
Transformers
on
site.
That
will
have
two
feeds
that
that
deals
with
an
outage
on
one
of
those
feeds
that
could
be
climate
created.
I
It
could
be
also
created
by
an
accident
that
that
that
deals
with
a
more
localized
event
in
the
situation,
where
there's
a
more
catastrophic
weather
event
that
impacts
the
whole
of
the
East
End
of
the
city,
then
we
do
have
gas-fired
generators
on
site
that
will
be
able
to
provide
charging
for
our
buses,
even
though
the
rest
of
the
East
End
will
have
no
power.
Y
Okay,
I
appreciate
that
and
I
think
you
know
I'm
willing
to
accept
that
as
a
first
step
and
again
this
is
a
long-term
project,
but
I
really
think
we
need
to
look.
You
know,
I
got
no
and
maybe
like
if
this
was
fossil
fuel
and
we
there
was
an
outage
for
whatever
reason
we
we'd
be
turning
to
our
partners
across
the
river
and
I.
Y
Don't
see
why
you
know
that
can't
be
pursued
potentially
as
well
if
they
begin
to
adopt
an
electric
Fleet
as
well
on
the
Gatineau
side
and
in
fact
it
it
may
be
cheaper
right
and
I
I
appreciate
there
be
all
kinds,
I'm
sure,
Regulatory
and
probably
inter-provincial
trade
barriers
to
do
that.
Y
But
that's
probably
one
of
the
competitive
advantages
that
we
have
right
now,
ironically,
is
that
they're
on
a
different
system
that,
if
we're
out
there
they're
up
and
running
so
that
maybe
that's
something
long-term
to
consider
and
just
as
a
comment
too
I
think
you
know
the
model's
changing
I
think
if
we
go
in
this
direction
and
the
Toronto
a
transit
system
goes
into
Direction,
you
know
we
we
we're
going
to
have
a
different
model,
I
think
for
funding.
Y
We
have
to
look
at
a
different
model
for
funding
for
Transit,
so
the
gas
tax
that
we
pay
now
for
our
diesel.
We
get
back
in
terms
of
gas
taxes,
so
there's
some
financial
advantage
to
us
and
I
think
the
province
should
be
looking
at
for
the
electricity
that
we
purchase
for
these,
that
we
have
a
similar
Arrangement
and
maybe
that's
something
for
Amo
to
consider
as
we
go
forward
so
again,
I
think
as
we
switch
to
fossil
fuels.
Y
Some
of
the
arrangements
we
have
I
think
need
to
be
reapplicated
at
the
provincial
level
in
terms
of
trying
to
lower
the
cost
and
I
appreciate
that
where
we
do
get
revenue
from
from
the
dividend
but
again
I
think
the
model
will
change
overall,
we've
got
time
to
to
do
that.
So
again,
thank
you
again
for
this
opportunity
to
hear
the
the
presentation,
the
questions.
That's
all
chair.
C
All
right,
thank
you,
chair,
sorry,
counselor
Menard,
if
I
but
butted
you
by
any
chance,
so
there's
no
arguing
that
Federal
funding
will
and
and
Loans
will
help
us
meet
our
emissions
targets
quicker
than
if
we
tackled
it
alone.
But
I
cannot
support
the
staff
recommendation.
We're
we're
in
a
timeline.
That's
practically
parallel
to
the
city's
decision
to
purchase
hybrid
buses,
but
in
the
late
2000s
at
that
time,
hybrid,
electric
propulsion,
technology
for
larger
Vehicles,
like
city
buses,
was
still
in
its
infancy.
C
The
promise
of
fuel
and
therefore
cost
Savings
of
up
to
36
sold
the
city
council
of
the
day
to
approve
the
purchase
of
177
hybrid
buses.
Those
savings
were
never
realized
and
the
buses
were
ultimately
retired
at
10
to
12
years
old
in
2020.
for
context.
Our
oldest
diesel
buses
right
now
are
about
19
years
old,
while
our
older
batch
of
articulated
buses
is
pushing
16..
C
So
before
us
is
a
funding
and
a
loan
is
funding
and
alone
I
should
say
from
the
federal
government
to
help
accelerate
our
electrification
plans.
Among
the
conditions
is
that
the
city
must
achieve
sufficient
mileage
each
year,
based
on
an
assumption
that
assumption
55,
000
kilometers
is
based
on
our
current
bus
Network,
which
has
yet
to
adapt
to
travel
patterns
that
changed
almost
three
years
ago
and
does
not
factor
in
major
Network
changes
likely
coming
with
each
section
of
stage
2
entering
service.
C
Our
friends
at
the
TTC
and
Mississauga
Transit
opted
to
use
hybrid
electric
buses
as
transition
Technologies.
Their
newest
hybrids
come
with
the
ability
to
be
converted
to
battery
electric
at
their
midlife
refurbishment
combined.
They
are
purchasing
almost
500
hybrid
electric
buses
over
the
next
two
years,
I'm
not
trying
to
Pedal
hybrids.
It's
the
only
comparison.
We
really
have.
My
point
is
we
bought
into
new
technology
in
the
past
that
technology
has
evolved?
C
We
need
to
let
battery
electric
buses
evolve,
including
the
end
of
life
considerations,
so
we
can
justify
spending
money
to
replace
the
fleet
to
the
credit
of
our
e-buses.
The
pilot
is
going
well
and
in
some
cases,
exceeding
manufacturer
expectations,
but
remember
they're.
Just
over
a
year
old
and
our
test,
lead
of
four
buses
is
not
enough
to
truly
simulate
managing
a
larger
Fleet
from
an
operations
and
maintenance
data
collection
standpoint.
C
Ultimately,
this
will
be
a
nearly
billion
dollar
program
and
even
though
the
federal
government
is
fronting
the
city,
65
percent
of
the
price
tag,
there
is
just
one
taxpayer
and
a
failed
program
will
cost
residents
regardless
of
the
funding
source.
One
winter
in
service
with
a
fleet
of
four
is
not
enough.
Data
to
meaningfully
base
a
decision
with
such
heavy
financial
implications
upon
given
the
scale
and
magnitude
of
variables
that
can
affect
vehicle
performance.
C
Lrt
public
inquiry
reports-
overarching
theme,
is
the
public
interest
and
even
though
advancing
our
environmental
goals
is
in
the
public
interest,
it
must
be
balanced
with
responsible
stewardship
of
public
funds.
Even
our
auditor
general
has
has
advised
that
caution.
This
isn't
the
loan
isn't
our
only
option.
There
will
be
future
opportunities
in
the
future
to
purchase
e-buses.
If
the
technology
succeeds,
not
to
mention
zero
emissions.
Bus
fund
is
available
until
March
2026.,
for
example.
C
If
several
Transit
agencies
in
Ontario
determine
e-buses
are
the
way
forward,
metrolinks
will
likely
add
that
option
to
their
joint
procurement
initiative,
or
we
can
adopt
our
own
steady
state
procurement
to
take
advantage
of
incremental
advantages.
Advances
in
technology
like
increases
the
battery
capacity
or
the
ability
to
replace
the
auxiliary
diesel
diesel
heater
I,
understand.
New
technologies
ultimately
need
buy-in
to
be
able
to
improve
and
evolve,
but
the
loan
is
too
great
at
risk
at
a
time
when
the
city
should
be
more
financially
risk.
C
Averse
and
given
that
I
do
have
some
questions
on
behalf
of
counselor
dudas
for
staff.
Will
OC
Transpo
ensure
the
guarantee
of
simultaneous
delivery
of
charging
infrastructure
in
vehicles
or
ensure
the
infrastructure
is
in
place
before
the
vehicles
arrive.
To
prevent
a
situation
where
a
newly
vehicle
newly
delivered
Vehicles
aren't
even
able
to
undergo
TNC
testing
commission
and
are
unable
to
be
used
because
of
the
lack
of
infrastructure.
I
Yeah,
thank
you
chair
for
the
question.
The
the
intent
and
the
plan
moving
forward
is
that
the
infrastructure
will
be
in
place,
tested
and
commissioned
prior
to
the
arrival
of
the
the
first
few
buses
of
that
26
tranche.
C
Thank
you
and
second
question
is:
have
the
e-bus
has
been
effectively
tested
to
meet
the
demands
of
Auto
West,
Transit
passengers
and
needs?
In
other
words,
do
the
buses
have
any
restrictions
and
or
issues
that
we
should
be
aware
of,
like
let's
say,
the
double
deck
height
restrictions?
Things
like
that.
C
Okay
and
last
question
on
behalf
of
counselor
dudas
is
on
the
topic
of
Asset
Risk
Management.
Given
the
complexities
and
fighting
electrical
fires
has
OC
transport
consulted
with
ofs
with
any
plans
best
practices,
Etc.
I
Once
we
get
the
green
light
to
move
forward
with
the
program,
then
we
will
be
working
with
with
our
partners,
including
ofs.
We
will
have
a
Fire
and
Life
Safety
working
group
that
will
look
at
many
of
the
aspects
associated
with
expanding
the
electric
bus
program,
including
the
facility
upgrades
sprinkler
systems,
training,
that's
required
for
emergency
service
staff,
training,
that's
required
for
our
own
staff,
so
we
will
be
building
a
big
program
once
we
get
the
green
light
to
go
ahead.
M
Great
thanks
very
much
chair
and
thank
you
for
the
presentation.
I
was
a
very
comprehensive
presentation.
I'm
glad
we're
getting
a
chance
to
meet
today
and
have
these
questions
because
I
think
the
presentation
answered
a
lot
of
questions
in
itself.
M
So
thank
you
for
that,
with
staff
to
your
knowledge
with
any
other
purchase
of
of
buses,
we've
tried
different
technology,
of
course,
in
the
past,
but
with
any
other
purchase
of
buses
have
have
they
undergone
the
scrutiny
of
a
of
the
audits
that
have
been
taking
place
pre-purchase
for
us
of
these
buses.
The
same
thing
happened
for
other
purchases
of
you
know,
say
the
60-foot.
You
know
all
the
different
buses
that
you
had
laid
out
has
that
happened
before.
I
W
Thank
you
chair
for
the
question
in
previous
procurement.
We
have
not
had
the
involvement
of
the
other
General
okay.
M
Thank
you
very
much
for
that
in
terms
of
Technology,
my
understanding
and
looking
at
other
countries,
and
whether
this
is
this
is
ready
for
cold
climate
that
that
in
Norway
in
China
in
many
cities
across
Canada
now
the
technology
has
been
tested
has
worked
well
cold
climate
has
been,
you
know,
they've
adjusted
over
time.
I
understand
the
world
is
adopting
this
Ottawa,
though
we
have
a
pilot
project,
would
not
be
a
new
adopter
of
this
technology.
I
Is
that
correct?
Thank
you
for
the
question.
My
characterization
would
be
the
same
that
we
are
not
a
new
adopter.
We
saw
the
list
of
other
cities
that
are
utilizing
electric
buses.
The
example
of
Moscow
they've
they've,
have
a
thousand
electric
buses
they've
gone
through
five
Winters
they're
reporting,
no
interruptions
with
their
service,
and
they
they
are
committed
to
going
full
electric,
as
are
several
other
cities,
including
Toronto
and
Edmonton
and
Chicago.
The
commitment
from
these
larger
cities
is
that
they
will
be
fully
battery
electric
by
2040.
M
Great,
thank
you
very
much
for
that
on
the
plan
for
the
procurement,
in
conjunction
with
the
TTC
I'm,
just
wondering
if
this
is
approved
by
by
committee
and
Council,
which
I
I
hope
that
it
is,
can
you
just
walk
me
through
the
process?
M
How
that
would
work
in
terms
of
working
with
TTC
and
the
timing
and
the
type
of
procurement
we'd
be
looking
to
do
so?
We
have
a
certain
type
of
bus.
Now
that
we've
been
piloting,
would
would
that
type
of
experience
be
included
in
in
that
procurement?
Would
we
set
up
specifications
based
on
what
we've
learned
from
from
that
with
TTC
together?
Maybe
you
could
just
shed
more
light
on
how
that
process
might
work
for
for
procurement.
W
Thank
you
chair
for
the
question.
Yes,
we
have
the
TTC
procurement,
it's
a
collaborative
procurement
that
they've
done
with
other
Transit
agencies
in
Ontario,
so
what
they've
done
is
brought
different
Transit
agencies
to
gather
their
experience,
their
specification
within
their
procurement.
They
have
an
adoption
class.
So
once
the
procurement
is
awarded,
we
will
have
the
opportunity
to
adopt
into
that
procurement,
and
then
we
will
work
directly
with
the
bus
manufacturer,
so
it
will
be
a
contract
within
with
the
city
of
Ottawa
and
the
bus
manufacturer.
Ttc
is
not
involved
at
that
point.
W
However,
the
base
specs
and
the
commercial
requirements
from
that
procurement
is
the
base
of
our
procurement
that
we'll
be
doing
plus
we
will
be
ensuring
that
all
of
the
OC
transport
city
of
Ottawa,
specific
requirements
are
added
within
that
purchase.
M
Okay,
excellent
thanks
so
much
for
that
that
level
of
detail
just
on
there's
a
big
question
around
we
have
the
cnib
delegation.
Will
the
avas
be
required
as
part
of
that
future
procurement?
That's
the
Federal!
Regulation!
That's
come
into
place
recently
in
terms
of
the
vehicle
sound!
Yes,.
M
Okay,
thank
you
for
that.
Just
on
another
delegation's
questions
around
there
are
four
items
there.
The
main
ones
were
around
continuing
to
seek
loan
and
grant
opportunities
and
a
similar,
well
I'll,
go
on
to
that
in
a
second,
but
we
I
assume
that
you
don't
need
further
direction
or
emotion
to
continue
to
to
look
for
loan
and
grant
opportunities
as
this
program
evolves.
Is
that
correct
you
had
that
direction
already.
That's.
M
Fantastic
and
then
in
terms
of
the
optimal
transition
of
the
bus
fleet-
and
you
know
when
end
of
life
will
occur
for
the
other
buses
that
we
have
in
Fleet
now,
I
assume.
We
are
also
obviously
looking
at
timeline
there
and
trying
to
line
up
new
procurement
models
with
with
our
needs.
Now
those
needs
may
be
debated,
but
how
many
buses
we
have
on
the
road
and
the
service
that
can
be
expected.
M
But
how
would
how
do
you
anticipate
those
needs
in
the
in
the
optimal
transition
of
the
bus
fleet
in
terms
of
level
of
service?
I
know
it's.
Maybe
a
pat
scrivencher
question:
how
do
you,
how
do
you
anticipate
what
the
needs
are
for
the
city
and
what
we
may
require
in
the
future,
given
current
service
levels.
V
Thank
you
Mr
chair,
so
the
the
graph
that
you
saw
on
the
screen,
and
that
was
in
the
the
2021
report,
showed
how
the
transition
could
occur
with
the
normal
life
cycle,
the
normal
end
of
life
of
the
existing
diesel
powered
buses
so
that
the
the
battery
electric
buses
or
any
other
zero
Mission
bus
could
come
in
as
those
buses
are
required,
as
as
the
previous
buses
and
their
economic
life.
V
Therefore
putting
no
additional
risk
nor
cost
on
the
city,
just
normal
life
cycle,
replacement
separately
from
the
technology
Choice
separately
from
the
energy
source.
We
always
have
to
keep
our
our
Fleet
plan
and
our
the
entire
Capital
program
up
to
date,
looking
forward
with
whatever
things
are
changing
what
you
saw
in
those
charts.
There
were
the
increase
in
the
sorry,
the
decrease
in
the
number
of
buses
that
we
are
going
to
require
once
the
long
extensions
of
the
otrain
open
to
the
East
and
to
the
West
over
the
next
few
years.
V
But
there
are
other
influence
as
well.
There
will
be
the
policy
decision,
so
Council
on
what
service
levels
will
be.
There
will
be
the
the
ridership
recovery
as
the
as
whether
people
return
back
to
on-site
work.
There
will
be
other
policy
decisions
taken
by
Council
about
how
to
design
the
transit
Network
there
will
be
influences
from
all
over
the
place.
V
If
there's
a
you
know,
we've
seen
in
the
past
economic
Booms
that
have
come
up
very
quickly,
have
required
all
city
services
to
respond
and-
and
we've
done
that-
and
we
would
do
that
again,
the
there's
we'll
we
will
continuously
update
our
forecast
of
what
the
future
could
be
based
on
our
all
of
our
knowledge
up
to
the
current
time.
But
none
of
that
predicts
what's
actually
going
to
happen
the
next
week
or
the
next
two
years.
Okay,.
M
Thank
you
for
that.
I
appreciate
that
on
the
the
procurement
of
new
parafleet
vehicles,
I
did
have
a
you
know:
informal
discussions
about
piloting
smaller
electric
vehicles
for
the
paraflet.
M
Is
that
something
you're
reviewing
now?
Do
you
need
direction
to
review
it?
Would
that
be
part
of
your
normal
course
to
look
into
those
options
as
well?
For
that
for
that
Fleet
replacement.
I
Thank
you
Mr,
chair
for
the
question.
My
understanding
is
that
the
the
OC
Transfer
is
moving
forward.
Looking
at
those
options
for
the
replacement
of
the
paratrans
bow
Fleet,
with
with
with
an
electric
battery
option,
so
I
don't
believe
we
need
further
Direction
I'll,
just
confirm
with
my
colleague
Dan.
If
that's
case.
W
Yeah
thanks
for
the
question
the
current
plan,
the
pair
buses
are
reaching
end
of
life.
We
will
be
looking
at
replacing
them
and
as
part
of
that
replacement,
looking
at
what
the
options
are
for
zero
emission
pair
of
vehicles,
yeah.
M
Thank
you,
yeah
I
know
the
market
options
are
I,
guess
I'll,
say
less
available
on
on
that
side
than
the
larger
buses,
but
just
really
appreciate
you.
Looking.
X
M
That
I
think
I've
tried
to
capture
most
of
the
delegates
that
I
wanted
to
highlight
here
and
just
really
appreciate
the
presentation
and
all
the
work
you've
put
in
I.
Don't
think
we've
done
more
risk
management
on
another
purchase
of
buses
than
we've
done
on
this
one.
We've
done
a
lot
of
risk
management.
I
know.
M
D
H
E
The
counselor
is
right,
the
the
technology
is
not
quite
right
now
and
it's
not
available
so
we're
working
to
see
if
we
couldn't
have
a
pilot
bus,
at
least
for
a
para
transport.
This
way
we
could
try.
It
it'd
be
very
important
to
to
try
it
out,
because
the
service
given
with
byparat
transport
is
different.
When
you
go
with
the
bus
in
the
morning,
you
don't
necessarily
know
what
route
you
will
take
for
to
go
from
A
to
B,
it's
not
as
regular
as
the
big
buses.
Z
Thank
you
very
much.
Thank
you
very
much
for
all
the
presentations
and
all
the
answers
and
I
on
that
last
point.
I
fully
agree
with
councilor
Menard.
That
would
be
a
good
Next,
Step
I'm,
supportive
of
this
motion
and
I.
My
main
question
will
just
be
specifically
on
this
motion,
but
I
did
want
to
make
a
few
comments.
Z
Some
of
the
comfort
in
being
able
to
support
this
comes
from
being
on
last
Council
and
I
wasn't
even
on
the
full
Council,
but
the
last
year
on
Transit
Commission
I
really
benefited
from
a
lot
of
the
presentations
there
and
I
know
others
didn't
so
I'm
really
glad
that
we
have
today
for
for
that
to
take
place.
Z
Z
I'm
really
pleased
with
the
pilot
project
and
the
cooperation
with
the
Toronto
Transit
Commission
and
I,
like
that,
we
will
be
following
the
Toronto
Transit
Commission
procurement
model,
potentially
and
working
with
them.
Further
on
that
I
like
that,
there
were
other
options
looked
at
and
maybe
those
technologies
will
evolve.
You
know
this,
wouldn't
maybe
be
electric
buses
for
the
next
400
years.
Technologies
will
evolve,
but
I
like
that
there
were
other
options.
Z
Looked
at
right
now,
I,
one
of
the
things
I
do
really
want
to
emphasize,
is
as
a
hydro,
Ottawa
board
member.
It
is
critical
that
we
appreciate
the
benefits
of
that
partnership,
because
if
you
don't
know
them,
maybe
you
all
do
know.
We
are
100
shareholder
of
hard
of
hydro,
Ottawa
right,
and
so
we
own
Hydro
Ottawa.
We
then
will
be
partners
with
Hydro
Ottawa
in
this
Venture.
Z
The
ongoing
benefits
of
that
aren't
really
thought
through
in
this
motion,
because
we
just
know
that
this
will
be
a
great
benefit,
but
it
will
be
as
we
go
on
and
continue
to
work
with
Hydro
Ottawa,
because
we
eventually
get
that
dividend
of
20
million
at
least
every
year,
and
what
that
can
go
towards,
so
maybe
it
will
be
more
than
20
million.
It
often
is
maybe
it'll
be
even
more
than
what
we're
used
to
so
I
would
really
want
to
emphasize.
That
is
a
key
part
of
this
I.
Z
You
know
my
personal
note:
I
had
a
hybrid
vehicle
in
2004
and
just
got
rid
of
it
in
2019
when
I
went
to
fully
electric.
So
this
speaks
to
me
on
a
personal
level
and
I
can
tell
you
the
savings
are
hard
to
believe
and
if
Russia
has
as
much
oil
as
they
have
and
they're
going
to
electric
buses
I
think
that's
a
little
bit
of
a
signal
anyway.
Funny
joke
okay,
the
actual
motion,
so
the
first
part
of
the
motion
just
simply
draw
down
I
think
that's
easy.
Z
Second,
the
movement
from
one
budget
over
to
a
clear
budget
for
the
Zeb
program
budget.
Fine,
the
third
part
of
the
motion
is
planning
for
next
and
future
budgets.
Clear
the
last
one
I
guess
I
have
a
question
on,
and
maybe
it's
for,
Wendy
or
Isabel
I'm,
not
sure
I
honestly
cannot
believe
this
I
was
just
saying
to
counselor.
Tierney
I
cannot
believe
that
if
we
do
not
get
the
savings,
we
don't
have
to
pay
it
back
to
me.
That
is
just
unbelievable.
Z
As
somebody
said,
I
think
it
could
be
the
sweetest
deal
in
town,
but
I
do
want
to
ask
about
the
due
diligence
we
expect
on
that.
You
know
I
mean
we
could
just
simply
say:
oh
hey,
we
didn't
get
those
savings,
so
we
can't
pay
this
back.
But
what
do
we
expect
that
to
look
like
from
the
infrastructure,
Bank.
J
So
we
went
through
rigorous
process
to
identify
the
Baseline,
so
we
owned
up
to
the
ghg
numbers,
because
we
looked
at
10
years,
history
of
ghg
costs
for
maintenance
and
Fuel,
and
it's
I
CIB
that
is
owning
the
risk
on
the
Zeb
maintenance
and
energy
costs,
our
Energy
Efficiency
and
the
useful
life
of
the
buses
too.
So
I
heard
earlier
about
the
15
years.
J
If
we
don't
reach
the
15
years,
they're
taking
the
risk
on
that
too,
we
have
to
take
commercially
reasonable
efforts
to
achieve
those
savings,
so
they
will
hold
our
feet
to
the
fire,
to
make
sure
that
we
are
doing
everything
possible
to
achieve
those
savings.
Absolutely.
Z
J
I
can
confirm
that
we
will
be
establishing
a
system
over
the
next
year
before
we
do
our
first
drawdown.
We
are
building
a
system
to
track
all
the
metrics
so
that
we
it's
a
very
complicated
credit
agreement,
one
of
the
most
complicated
ones.
We've
worked
on
a
lot
of
metrics
that
we
have
to
capture
and
monitor
and
report
on,
and
we
will
be
setting
up
the
systems
to
do
that.
Z
Great
well,
thank
you
very
much.
I
think
this
is
very
exciting
and
transformational
and
I
think
this
time
different
differently,
transformational
from
the
lrd
I
hope
in
every
way.
Thank
you
very
much.
K
Thank
you,
Mr
chair
and
I
I
echo,
my
colleagues,
compliments
of
your
presentation.
It
was
really
thorough
and
I
learned
even
more
today
than
when
we
originally
were
talking
about
this.
Most
of
the
questions
have
been
asked.
I
just
had
one
question,
I
think
I
asked
this
in
the
past.
K
You
know
diesel
buses
run
out
of
gas
or
fuel
on
occasion,
too,
what
happens
in
the
case
with
the
electric
bus
if
it
runs
out
of
powers
or
like
a
supply
wagon,
with
a
generator
that
charges
it
up
or
they
have
to
tow
it
back
and
part.
Two
of
that
is
out
of
the
four
vehicles
we
have
now
has
that
actually
occurred.
I
know
that
would
be
part
of
training
to
ensure
that
the
operator
knows
okay,
you're
getting
low
time
to
go
home,
but
I
just
I'm
kind
of
curious.
I
W
Thank
you
for
the
question
Mr
chair.
Yes,
we've
been
tracking
these
buses
over
the
past
year.
We
have
not
had
the
we
didn't
run
out
of
energy
out
on
the
street.
There
are
warnings
on
the
bus
that
will
let
the
operator
know
when
it
reaches
15
percent
and
then
10,
and
then
that
five
percent
and
so
on,
so
we
never
ran
out
of
electricity
or
battery
capacity
on
the
bus.
W
At
this
point,
however,
like
any
other
bus,
if
there
is
a
failure
out
on
the
street,
we
have
you
know
it
will
be
coming
back
to
our
maintenance
facility
via
tow
truck.
W
We
do
all
vehicles
that
we
have
have
are
have
been
told.
Okay,.
N
Around
the
commission
that
at
least
one
commissioner
isn't
going
to
be
supporting
this
and
I
wondered
if
there's
a
calculation
first
of
all
of
the
cost
that's
gone
into
this,
and
what
the
cost
would
be
to
develop
an
alternative
where
this
not
to
go
forward
and
also,
if
you
could
outline
the
next
steps.
That
would
happen
if
all
Commissioners
decided
not
to
vote
in
support
of
this.
H
E
If
this
is
not
adopted
today,
it's
the
impossibility
of
delivering
a
service
when
the
decision
was
made
to
go
through
this
transformation,
we
did
the
work
we
had
to
do
and
if
we
have
to
look
at
an
alternative,
a
new
technology,
we
saw
it
with
the
examples
we
gave.
The
technologies
that
are
available
are
not
recommended
by
my
team,
so
that
would
mean
that
we'd
have
to
do
more
essays
more
trials.
We'll
have
to
put
a
lot,
invest
a
lot
of
money
in
the
old
diesel
buses.
E
AA
Thank
you
and
thank
you
for
having
this
meeting
I
really
think.
It's
been
very.
AA
I
really
appreciated
the
presentation
that
was
very
thorough
and,
and
it
was
a
great
opportunity
to
to
learn
more
I,
also
appreciate
the
delegations
and
I
want
to
thank
the
cnib
for
coming
out.
I.
Think
that
that's
really
important
and
I
would
like
to
and
I
apologize.
This
may
have
been
dealt
with.
I
had
to
I
had
to
step
out,
so
apologies
if
it
has,
but
what
is
being
done
in
terms
of
our
our
ridership.
That
is
sight
impaired
for
these
buses.
I
Thank
you
for
the
question
Mr
chair,
but
I'm.
Not
quite
sure
of
the
question,
could
you
please
repeat.
AA
Yes,
we
heard
from
the
cnib
and
their
concern
I
mean
it's
kind
of
ironic
that
you
know,
quietness
is
a
is
a
problem,
but
if
they
can't
hear
buses
coming,
if,
if
there's
no
signals
to
them
of
of
arrival
Etc,
are
we
working
with
the
cnib
to
resolve
these
issues?.
I
Thank
you
Mr
chair
for
repeating,
so
we
have
been
working
with
cnib
as
one
of
the
key
stakeholders
in
the
development
of
this
pilot
program
and
also
moving
forward.
The
existing
pilot
buses
do
have
the
avas
system,
so
that's
the
acoustic
vehicle
alerting
system
and
as
part
of
the
specifications
for
the
the
new
electric
buses.
That
system
is
also
included
in
the
specifications.
AA
Thank
you.
What
about
the
kneeling
bus,
the
the
ability
to
bring
chairs
on
is
that
that's
part
of
it
of
the
bus
service
too.
AA
Okay,
thank
you.
No
I
I
know
a
lot
of
people
are
concerned
out
there
because
they
think
such
a
large
buy.
The
the
big
concern
is
because
we're
doing
it
all
at
once
that
somehow
the
technology
will
get
will
get
dated
by
the
time
we
replace
all
our
buses
and
I
just
want
to
make
sure
that
we
we
offer
good
information
to
the
public,
because
this
is
this
is
their
money
that
we're
using
to
assure
them
that
this
is
not
going
to
get
dated.
AA
I
mean
things
change
every
year
you
know
the
electric
cars
get
better
and
better
the
batteries
get
better
and
better.
What
is
what
kind
of
Communications
program
do
we
have
to
discuss
that?
To
show
that
it's
a
good
value
right
now.
I
Foreign,
thank
you
for
the
question.
Mr
chair,
the
the
purchase
of
the
buses
will
take
place
in
a
phased
approach,
so
the
first
set
of
buses
is
the
26th
tranche
that
would
arrive
in
2024.
There
will
be
further
discussions
with
TTC
sorry
with
Transit
Commission
about
the
the
following
Fleet
of
buses
that
we
would
purchase.
I
It
is
possible
that
the
technology
on
that
second
Fleet
may
be
slightly
different
to
the
First
Fleet,
as
as
the
manufacturers
try
to
keep
ahead
of
the
changes
that
take
place,
but
that's
that
will
be
determined
at
the
time
that
we
make
the
purchase.
D
Are
there
any
other
questions
from
counselors
I
have
a
few
but
okay?
Well,
first,
there's
just
a
thought
about
about
risk.
We
have
talked
a
lot
about
risk
of
the
new
technology.
D
The
diesel
buses
are
not
without
risk.
Actually
I
think
Miss
Jasmine
mentioned
the
cost
of
diesel.
I
looked
up
here
in
2020
on
this
date
in
2020,
diesel
was
at
127.3
cents
per
liter,
and
today
it's
195.3
cents
per
liter.
So
that's
a
big
increase
and
a
big
risk.
Keeping
with
diesel
car
mentioned
that
diesel
buses
may
not
be
manufactured
for
that
longer.
So
that's
a
potential
risk
and
the
other
one.
D
We
don't
have
Ottawa
Public
Health
here
either,
but
there
is
a
significant
health
risk
from
buses
that
that
emit
dangerous
greenhouse
gases.
So
but
I
wanted
to
ask
a
few
questions.
One
was
about
the
transition
cost
since
2021.
That
seems
to
be
the
biggest
change
in
the
original
estimates
we
had
in
front
of
commission
and
Council
and
I
know
it's
related
to
the
new
garage
and
structural
and
reinforce
enforcements
and
sprinklers.
Can
you
just
at
what
point
did
that
become
apparent,
or
were
there
any
other
options?
D
Explored
that
that
could
have
brought
down
that
cost.
What
why
is
this
additional
infrastructure
required
at
this
point.
I
As
with
any
large
program,
we
we
start
off
at
the
outset
with
the
best
figures
that
we
have
from
a
planning
perspective
to
develop
budgets
as
the
program
develops
and
as
we
get
into
more
detail,
we
start
doing
conceptual
work,
conceptual
designs
and
preliminary
designs.
We
we
discover
more
information
and
more
detail
about
the
requirements
of
the
overall
program
in
this
case.
At
the
outset,
at
the
the
initial
phase,
though,
there
was
not
a
consideration
for
having
a
covered
facility
for
charging
at
1500
salary.
I
It
has
been
come
apparent
that
there
is
significant
benefit
to
the
city
to
have
a
covered
garage
for
undertaking
the
charging,
given
that,
given
our
climate
given
our
weather,
so
that
was
that
was
a
significant
additional
amount
that
we've
now
included
in
our
transition
costs.
That
was
not
there.
Originally.
There
were
also
other
amounts
related
to
Running
of
the
program
related
to
Staffing
training
requirements
and
and
also
tools
and
equipment
that
are
required
once
we
have
the
full
Fleet
on
board
to
to
ensure
that
they
operate
properly
and
that
they're
maintained
properly.
I
D
Thank
you
and
on
the
change
of
funding
available
from
the
from
infrastructure
Canada
we.
How
will
that
affect
the
overall
long-term
plans
for
the
conversion
of
the
diesel
fleet
to
Electric?
Is
there
a
timing
risk
that
we
won't
be
able
to
do
that
as
originally
planned
in
2021.
J
Original
application
covered
the
period
from
2022,
I
believe
till
2027,
and
now
that's
shortened
quite
a
bit
from
2023
to
2026.,
so
that
also
helped
to
confirm
that
350
zebs
is
much
more
feasible
than
450.
It
helped
us
to
rescope
that
in
terms
of
the
risks,
if
we
don't
achieve
those
timelines,
did
you
want
to
speak
to
that
or.
I
We
believe
that
the
program
that
we
have
if
we
receive
the
green
light
now
that
we
will
be
able
to
achieve
the
infrastructure,
delivery
and
the
delivery
of
the
buses
and
the
time
time
frame
that
we've
provided
up
until
2026
and
2027
for
the
CIB
funding.
So
we
do
believe
it's
achievable,
but
there
there
is
a
risk
associated
with
well,
partly
with
delaying
the
the
green
light,
but
also
the
delivery
of
the
program.
D
Okay,
thank
you.
I
had
a
question
about
the
the
actual
report
recommendations
so
between
two
and
number
two
and
number
three
number
two
is
a
budget
adjustment
of
55
million,
transferring
funding
from
the
2022
approved
bus
replacement
budget.
So
that's
fine.
Number
three
is
about
directing
the
general
manager
transit
services
to
through
the
annual
budget
process,
to
make
a
similar
well
in
20,
24
and
2025..
So
I
just
want
to
be
clear.
J
Correct
the
2023
budget
draft
budget
includes
that
second
tranche,
so
we
already
have
approval
for
the
first
launch.
It's
the
second
tranche.
We
need
approval
in
2023
to
purchase
in
2024,
so
it
takes
a
year
to
purchase
the.
J
D
Yeah,
okay
and
the
the
Zeb
program
Reserve
does
that
come
into
effect
right
away
once
Council
approves
this
like?
Are
we
able
to
take
advantage
of
the
four
pilot
buses
or
those
exempt
from
those
those
savings
that
we
might
achieve?
Yeah.
J
The
four
are
not
included
in
that
reserve
and
the
intent
is
once
the
buses
become
operational,
so
that
will
probably
be
in
the
2024
budget.
We
will
need
to
start
putting
money
aside
the
money
that
we
would
have
spent
on
maintaining
diesel
put
that
aside
in
the
reserve.
Obviously
it's
the
net
between
that
and
what
it
will
cost
to
maintain
a
Zeb
put
those
in
reserves
and
then
manage
it
through
the
budget
process
to
make
sure
that
we're
meeting
our
loan
payments.
Okay,.
D
There
have
been
a
number
of
questions
from
counselors
about
future
updates
and
I
think
that's,
obviously
an
excellent
idea
and
very
much
required
what
is
staff's
plan
on
a
year
by
year
basis
to
keep
commission
and
Council
up
to
date
on
the
the
progress
of
the
program,
maybe
even
emerging
Technologies
around
and
alternative
technology
buses.
What
can
we
expect
over
the
next
few
years.
H
D
Yeah
I'd
like
to
work
offline
with
yugene
as
well
just
to
look
at
what
form
those
updates
could
take
and
looking
forward
to
staying
up
to
date
on
this
project.
Thank
you.
Okay.
Are
there
any
other
questions
from
counselors
councilor.
AB
AB
AB
But
one
of
the
challenges
that
residents
in
my
ward
have
is
certainly
the
distance
of
the
commute
and
then
the
reliability
of
the
service
and
I
believe
on
June
16th
2021.
The
report
to
commission
indicated
that
there
was
a
reduced
range
of
electric
buses
compared
to
Diesel
and
I'm,
just
wondering
what
mitigating
Solutions
we
might
have
to
ensure
that
the
283
and
the
176
routes
that
service,
my
ward,
aren't
impacted.
V
AB
Thank
you
very
much
and
my
next
question:
if
there
is
a
change
at
the
federal
level
and
I
agree
with
my
colleague
that
this
is
probably
the
best
deal
in
town
right
now,
but
if
anything
changes
and
we're
well
into
this
stream
and
converting
our
Fleet,
what
what
are
our
options
if
the
federal
funding
dries
up.
J
Are
you
asking
for
future
funding,
because
this
one
would
be
locked
in
with
it
there's
a
transfer
payment
agreement
that
will
be
signed
for
the
350
million
and
then
also
the
CIB
loan?
We
have
already
signed
that
agreement,
so
those
are
signed
agreements,
but
for
future
we
are
looking
for
and
continuously
discussing,
with,
infc
and
CIB
for
future
programs
to
be
able
to
continue
to
do
this.
J
One
of
the
questions
about
the
savings
like
we
would
continue
to
do
savings,
and
this
gives
us
an
opportunity
for
in
15
years
to
make
sure
that
we
do
get
savings,
and
maybe
we
won't
rely
on
these
things
going
forward
that
we
will
have
sufficient
savings
to
help
to
pay
for
that
difference.
T
Yeah,
thank
you.
Mr
chair,
just
a
quick
follow-up
to
to
councilor
Brown's
comment.
You
mentioned
you
know
looking
forward,
you
know
a
15-year
business
model,
type
construct
and
future
funding.
Are
we
making
an
assumption
that
future?
Like?
Are
we
setting
the
conditions
where
we
are
requiring
to
get
future
funding
from
other
other
levels
of
government
where
potentially
there
could
be
a
change
there?
T
I
just
want
to
make
sure
that
we're
not
setting
the
conditions
where
a
decision
today
may
be
based
on
Good,
Intentions
and
and
and
assumptions
that
may
not
come
to
fruition
in
six
years.
Ten
years.
J
Mr
chair,
that
was
part
of
my
last
comment
to
say
that
it
would
be
wonderful
to
continue
with
additional
funding
in
future
phases,
but
it
gives
us
15
years
with
the
350
buses
to
actually
look
at
how
those
savings
can
be
achieved
and
in
future
phases
we
could
actually,
if
we
are
confident
after
several
years
of
operating
these
electric
buses,
that
we
do
achieve
those
savings,
we
could
actually
just
fund
it
ourselves
with
the
difference.
D
All
right,
I
have
really
good
discussion
today
and
thank
you
again
to
counselors,
who
are
here
and
online
and
to
all
of
our
city
staff
and
OC
Transfer
staff
appreciate
all
the
information
we
are
going
to
do
a
recorded
vote
on
this,
so
we'll
go
to
Eric
to
help
us
with
that.
T
D
That's
absolutely
sorry,
that's
correct.
The
recorded
vote
will
be
on
the
report
recommendations
and
then
they
will
rise
to
Council
on
February
1st
next.
T
T
I
apologize,
I,
don't
have
fancy
wherebys
or
anything
like
that,
but
but
my
the
essence
of
what
I
would
like
to
recommend
Mr
chair
would
be
that
we
include
a
documented
requirement
for
an
annual
opportunity,
like
you,
like
you
alluded
to
in
your
comments
where
we
can
make
the
decision
as
a
Transit
Commission
and
then
counsel
to
potentially
off-ramp.
If
there
is
a
problem
with
this
process
going
forward
and
in
doing
that,
I
think
it
would
Set.
T
You
know
the
Public's
mind
at
ease
that
we're
not
locking
ourselves
into
something
that's
going
to
be
long
term.
If
there
are
problems
with
it,
we
can.
We
can
make
decisions
on
an
annual
basis.
So
so
my
recommendation
is
we
we
codify
something
that
says
we
have
the
opportunity
to
make
adjustments
on
an
annual
basis.
Based
on
that
that
session,
sir.
D
So
can
I
recommend
counselor
I'll
offer
if
you
and
I
could
work
together
between
now
and
Council
next
week
to
refine
the
language
around
that
and
make
sure
we're
capturing
what
you'd
like
and
then
it's
something
we
could
bring
up
the
Council
next
week.
Yeah.
M
Thank
you
very
much
thanks,
chair
I,
just
can
I
just
jump
in
on
that
I.
Don't
want
to
overly
burden
staff
on
this
I
think
we've
had
a
lot
of
back
and
forth
and
I
think
correctly.
If
I'm
Robert,
is
there
not
a
yearly
opportunity
at
Transit
Mission
when
we're
discussing
the
capital
budgets
and
the
forward
purchases
of
of
bus
infrastructure
to
have
that
that
very
conversation
annually
I
think
that's
part
of
the
process
right
so
I
recognize.
M
D
I
believe
you
are
correct
that
there
are
others
opportunities,
so
perhaps,
if
there's
a
way
to
clarify
through
perhaps
the
annual
reporting
process
as
well,
there
may
be
some
different
ways
that
we
can.
We
can
make
that
more
clear
for
for
our
Council
going
forward.
N
D
Okay,
thank
you.
We
have
no
other
items
on
this
agenda,
so
we
are
adjourned
and
our
next
meeting
is
Thursday
February
9th.
Thank
you.