Permissionless Software Foundation Technical Steering Committee, 18 Aug 2021

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From YouTube: PSF TC Meeting 8.18.21

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Technical Steering Committee Meeting for Aug 18, 2021

A

A

How long before uh the government accuses the taliban of using cryptocurrency to take over afghanistan.

A

And we should be live.

B

A

How's it going my name is aaron shoemaker, I'm working with the psf to help develop the dev school, doing some videos with chris and also working on some of the I'm here kind of like a coder like a bunch of people and trying to figure things out.

C

Like the big block camp was um much more aligned with the ability to scale as appropriately, but still be able to do lightning network. Can everything else? So to me, it's sort of odd that uh that we've splintered as a community so harshly and then even the point where I went to and said well, this permissionless software foundation is building on the tools that are really scalable and interesting and can be built in a way that makes something um really interesting, like even just the fact that you've done end-to-end encryption with the bcs message.

C

You know the message.fullstack cache is something that no one's really done yet right I mean zcash is just beginning to do that they did they've got some stuff, so I just appreciate the fact that you guys are building really amazing labels that make something a small group of people doing it and you're making it available and what you guys did with the video you did this last week, where you actually watched youtube go through show how to do it.

C

It's just amazing because it allows people to not feel like they're making mistakes, because everyone makes mistakes in the beginning, but feels like I'm getting somewhere so aaron sunmen, I'm just glad to be a part of this. I've been a dev for a while um and just excited to be a part of this. That's great man. Yeah. Welcome! Welcome to.

A

The party, yes, we had a, we had a little problem with audio going out to youtube there. We sorry everybody we've had problems with zoom audio today and so um it and then unchained stanley said. Did we miss introductions? Well, uh yeah? Let's just do it again. Yes, we missed all, but what chris was saying is unchained sean, so we'll just do introductions.

C

A

On chain, can you hear us now? Let's, let's see uh yes, but we miss all of what chris was saying. So it's you you chris. They want you to.

D

Hear your beautiful voice yeah! I was just given the same introduction that I give every week that I founded the psf and I managed fullstack.cache blockchain as a service and really appreciate those people watching on youtube, giving us feedback, because you're, essentially our qa team, uh so yeah we're all we're all making this happen uh so good. So it sounds like they did get the other two people's intros. So with that, I'm gonna share my screen and move right into the agenda today.

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D

Okay, looks like it's up. Thank you aaron uh yeah. So, as always, our agendas are on github under the permissionless software foundation, github group, under the tsc repository for technical steering committee, and we file them as issues and all the previous agendas are there um they're just closed issues, and um we always include our links to the zoom meeting and the um the youtube channel uh and odyssey as we're also uploading to odyssey um okay.

D

So as every uh couple weeks when we have this meeting uh our our community's, not yet really big enough to have the sort of formal meetings that these are set up to handle. um So instead, the focus of these meetings really is to just celebrate the technical achievements that we've we've had over the last two weeks to share them with the rest of the community.

D

um So we'll go with over this agenda and then at the end of the agenda, we'll open it up as sort of a round robin uh just to cover any sort of news items or or or cool tech that that people have heard about and want to talk about.

D

um So, first I'll focus on this psf core and there's a link here to a blog article. That explains what our psf course software is it's our bch api rest, api, bchjs, javascript library and the gatsby ipfs web wallet, um uh gatsby theme and then there's there's other software that support those three main pieces of software. But that's essentially what we consider our core uh and the last couple weeks there's been some pretty big changes to the javascript library bchjs.

D

The latest version is 4.20.10. I recommend everybody update to it. There was a an issue with shot tokens, people who had been using the fullstack.cash service to get increased rate limits. They were reporting issues that I was really having a hard time replicating, and so I've come up with a series of of tools and debugging stuff around that. But I finally found this bug. It was a very subtle bug um where it has around this keyword, so anybody who's familiar with javascript and using this keyword. They know that can be tricky.

D

It was losing its context, and, and so it was reverting back to the older rate limits and- and that was the issue that that people had been reporting to me, and so I'm glad I was able to finally find it and fix it. So that's fixed. If anybody out there has been having rate limit issues using the bchjs library, it's now fixed in this newer version, and if you do run into issues, please contact me and and we'll work through it.

D

There is an issue with token validation via the slp dbv white list yeah. So one of the ways that I have um you know so slpdb is the indexer that tracks all the slp tokens on the bitcoin capture network and this database is very resource intensive and one of the ways that I've been advocating that people scale the token economy on bch is to use these whitelist slp dbs.

D

So it's it ignores all tokens except the ones that are explicitly in the white list, and this lets you run smaller infrastructures, much more scalable this way, and I think that this is way so anyways. What happened um was that the the slp db white list server that that I I operate.

D

I normally only allocate eight gigabytes of ram and that's been sufficient, uh as opposed to 32 gigabytes of ram, which is a general purpose slpdb, which is what that requires. Well, it fell over. Apparently it needs more, eight, more than eight gigabytes, even if you're uh running a whitelist.

D

So I bump that up to 16 gigabytes, it's up and running it's running fine now, but it also showed that, if that's not running because there's this uh waterfall validation method in bchjs, where it goes out, if you ask it like here's, I have this token and I want to make sure that it's a valid token before I try and spend it um or have it show up in the wallet and uh and it'll do this sort of uh waterfall validation, where it checks with the whitelist slpdb first, because that's the smallest and the fastest.

D

Then, if that fails, it'll go to the general purpose, slp db and then, if that fails, it'll go to slp api, which is a pure javascript implementation, that sort of um checks the dag on the fly. So so it it's essentially trying to go from the most performant to the least performant validation method and, uh and what I found was that if this white list server fell over, it would essentially stop the execution there um if it couldn't communicate with that.

D

So that's been fixed if, for some reason in the future, the whitelist server is not available for whatever reason it'll. Just skip it and move on to the general purpose, these other methods to try and validate the token so got a little deep in the weeds, but this is a technical meeting. So that's the situation there.

D

uh Also, while we were at it, we ran npm audit, so bchjs has zero reported vulnerabilities. That's always a good thing to have um so that wraps up the bchjs um errands feel free to jump in here. If you guys have any questions, um also aaron shoemaker, if you see any questions on youtube, let me know like feel free to interrupt me at any time. If you guys want any more info.

A

We just have a crazy money in the chat, says: uh psf merch win, or so we got some people wanting psf merch.

D

That's a good idea, yeah! That's! That's. Definitely, definitely something to think about good.

C

D

C

Raise some recent funds plus, I think it's also something that you get more people wearing something like that, like hey. What is that you know? I think that's.

A

C

A good idea, crazy money.

A

Yeah yeah, thanks for the suggestion, crazy money and uh anybody else in the chat feel free to chat, and we will read your comments on air as long as they are appropriate.

D

um Okay, so moving away from the core software, uh the json rpc over ipfs and the pay to write database have been two big focuses of mine and uh and daniel and uh and then gary as well, and um uh so just to refresh people. uh Well, actually there's this video at the top here that I recommend everybody check into because it's it's it's fairly non-technical, it's very high level, and it's only about 15 minutes long and this video on psf architectural trajectory.

D

It's I made it earlier this week and it's it's really trying to just communicate our tr, the trajectory that we're on in terms of of our architecture and and and how how it uh works- and um it very much addresses this. This um uh current issues around regulation.

D

There was a very, very poorly written law that was passed with the infrastructure bill last week by the u.s senate and has currently worked its way through congress and if it passes it, which it probably will um it's incredibly overly broad and will probably bring significant regulation to the entire crypto industry. And so um what this video covers and the trajectory that we're on is is very much a way to resist.

D

Regulation and- and I share this diagram in this video, where on the left is wallet.fullstack.cache, which is our web wallet and the left side path, sort of shows the dependencies of software as they are, as it exists today using the rest api and then the path on the right replaces the rest api using http with a json rpc using ipfs, and so this is a much more censorship resistant way of allowing computers on the internet to talk to one another and- uh and so this is the trajectory we're on and we're starting it all.

D

The all the names in these boxes are, these are repositories within the permissionless software uh foundation, github uh area, and uh so I encourage any developers watching this check out these repositories. Please ask questions about them in the telegram channel, but anyways. This is the trajectory we're on and uh if you want to know more, I recommend checking out checking out this video and uh but but basically one thing I do want to point out is that minimal, slp wallet uh at the center?

D

That is currently the wallet engine that that runs the web wallet, and this is sort of that's going to be the the relay or the the the point that switches from centralized mode to decentralized mode. That's that's the the element that will allow us to to switch from the rest api over http paradigm to the json rpc over ipfs paradigm.

A

D

Yeah yeah so I'll leave it there. I love talking about this, I'm I don't want to get on a soapbox. If you know there's not any active questions about it but uh yeah, I really would love to see more developers use the software. It's still very much in development, and so it uh it's uh as it reaches maturity. I'm hoping I can entice more developers to to to work into it.

D

In fact, on that note I'll, just jump down to this item, um there is a major refactor of the ipfs cord library uh underway, I'm probably about 70 percent done with it, and uh that's it at the heart that that is the thing that unlocks the json rpc over ipfs and and unlocks his censorship, resistance and and privacy enhancement.

D

So the very important library um and then in addition, yeah daniel's been working very steadily, increasing uh the unit tests uh and test coverage of the pay to write database, we're we're very close to 100 percent test coverage, and um so just as a refresher, the payrate database is a peer-to-peer database.

D

It works very much like a blockchain in that each person maintains their own copy of of their of their database and all the databases coordinate over ipfs using a consensus mechanism or essentially they're it's written into the code, and- uh and so this is going to be a really important part of the of the psf, because the pay to right database, if we can successfully build apps that use, it will be a steady, will steadily consume, psf tokens and- and that will be good for that- will help fund additional development by increasing the price of the psn token.

D

So that's why uh this whole section, the json rpc over ipfs and the pay to write database gets talked about every week or every other week.

A

It's cool tech and it's exciting to see it being developed so.

C

Thanks man thanks.

A

C

Go ahead. Well, I understand.

D

A

C

This is a big piece, because I mean we saw what's happening with um with uh shapeshift and realizing that uh uh all of the stuff that's happening, including the bill. That's just past the senate, uh and not you know not in the house yet but is, is going to impact every one of us and especially if we're trying to work on permissionless stuff, uh the crazy part about it, nothing moves forward. If it requires permission, we see what happened with telecoms and everything else when everything requires permission all the time.

C

If this is what's really required to have things move forward and I'd hate to have anybody especially associated with this um get in trouble because of it. You know it feels like it's gotta gotta go through this sort of removal of. I guess they call it broker status for anything. Anybody who touches it right. It's just it's just not a fair comparison and I feel limit innovation dramatically. So I appreciate everything you're doing to keep this organized and keep it uh true that way. Thanks man.

D

Yeah, you know, let's take a minute I'd, uh since you mentioned shapeshift I'd like to give an update, because I've been trying to pro, in fact. Well, let me just cover this last agenda item and then and then yeah I'd love to give an update on my experience with shapeshift uh last agenda item gary nadir, who is another uh developer in venezuela, uh who's working with the psf? He has been he's sort of our resident avalanche, blockchain expert and he's been maintaining avik's cly wallet, which I need to update a link to that.

D

That's another repo, very similar, similar experience to slp fly wallet um and uh but on the avalanche blockchain and he added a create token command. um So you can use that command to create tokens on the avalanche blockchain on their x chain and uh there was a bug in the send all command um which he's which he's fixed so that that command line wallet is actually working really well, and so anybody who wants to dip their toes in the water of the avalanche blockchain.

D

This is a really approachable way to do it um so I'll leave that there um I'm gonna go ahead and stop sharing, but yeah on the topic of uh shapeshift. I've been participating in their dow.

D

I actually just recently bought fifty dollars worth of fox tokens so that I have uh because, because, basically, if you don't own a fox they're, a dow and so everything that happens, you vote on it um with, and you use your tokens to vote on it, and I'm really watching them closely for lessons to be learned that we can then apply to our own dao.

D

But there's there's philosophically there's there's quite a lot of room for alignment between the psf and shape-shift, because shape-shift is focused on trading or swapping tokens across blockchains, and we we are a blockchain agnostic uh organization that that is also focused on moving assets across blockchain. So there's a there's, a lot of room for alignment there and I've been in touch with uh some of the the community leaders there.

D

They are interested in the tech that we've developed for our vip room uh because they similarly need the same thing of of increasing the signal and decreasing the noise, so that people can can quickly identify the community leaders.

D

And what else did I want to share yeah? There's just a lot of lessons to be learned. It's it's pretty they're getting started fairly slowly um and they are also working very closely with maker dow. I was actually they've. I was in the second uh governance meeting with with members of maker, dow and maker dao. They they are stewards of the dai, algorithmic stable coin.

D

For those who don't know and maker dao started as a dao, and then they incorporated I'm theorizing here, but I believe they incorporated because they moved from a single asset to a multi asset and some of those assets are things like usdc.

D

So I think they needed bank accounts for that right and in order to sort of get those partnerships going. But now they've realized like that, was not the right move um for long-term health, and so they are now in the process of unwinding their corporate structure and moving back into a pure dow and then shape-shift has always been a corporate structure, and they are now in the process of unwinding that corporate structure and becoming a dow, and so these are the two.

D

These are the only two companies that I know of that work companies and are disassembling the company to become a dow. um There might be other cases, I just don't know of them um and uh it's I really think in terms of like being on the cutting edge. I think that is the cutting edge, because this is this cat. This is the next step in this cat and mouse game of regulation is, uh there is nothing to regulate. There is no ceo. There are no bank accounts to shut down.

D

um You know there's just people working together on a common goal using the token uh to coordinate that human effort, and uh so I'm very inspired by this and and very much looking at both of those organizations for inspiration and guidance, um as as our own dao progresses right. Well, I agree.

C

I mean that's one of the things: I've I've really enjoyed eric voorhees ideas, even back when they did prism. I don't know if you remember when they did a smart contract sort of collection where you pay one thing and you get a collection of different tokens associated with that and they're the counterparty, and so they built a whole bunch of smart contracts and a lot of what ended up happening was a lot of other things were based off that, like it started with them.

C

Doing that, I think that's a similar idea with, what's going to happen with corporations turning into dows. So we don't know many now, but I think there'll be a lot more and they're blazing a path that I I think is a great move for us to at least look at and learn from.

D

Yeah I mean, and people as as this progresses, you know for better or worse, people are going to focus on the attempt to escape regulation, which I'm very much aligned with, uh but there that I think some of the other things that are going to get lost um that are their important features as well.

D

Endows is that they allow the organization to employ anyone anywhere and whereas, like shape shift the company, they even eric even said like they would never hire anyone in france because of the of all the regulations in french, it's a nightmare um but as a dow uh they're not hiring anyone, people are just working and there are bounties and things that people can do and if they do them, they get rewarded in tokens and that's all handled by smart contracts. There's no humans involved there.

D

So there's nothing for the government to you know prevent from you know happening. So it's just anyone anywhere can participate and- and I think that that is equally important, as uh you know, the ability to escape regulatory capture, and uh but I think that that is going to get lost in the you know, as this becomes more in vogue.

A

Well, I think that you also have to bear in mind as these develops these new ways of working develop there. We're gonna have to figure out how do we know who's in it for the long haul, who's not and figure out good ways of uh separating the wheat from the chaff.

A

You know: we've talked about this problem with open source software with like drive-by code contributions and stuff, like that, that's a problem we've been talking about with the dev school saying how to is there a way that we can bring people in acclimate them to, because the dows are still going to have a a community or a culture. You know, and we need people to uh acclimate to that in a certain way, and how do we bring them in that and keep them from slowing things down, so to speak?

A

Those those are questions, we're gonna have to answer, and what does that look like? I don't know, but uh it it is things that I'm exploring with my own businesses.

A

D

Yeah, that is a really good topic that you raise. um I am going to try and see if I can quickly pull up the shapeshift.

D

um They have an excellent infographic on how they are managing their workflows, like they're they're still working it out, but I think they have this the broad strokes, the skeleton of it laid out pretty well.

D

Let's hope that I can get to it quickly, um but um another thing, while I'm pulling this up, that I wanted to bring up. Is this uh the video that aaron and I did um showing how to use slp clywalt that got a lot of positive feedback and I'm wondering if anybody watching youtube uh ha or or or the members here in in telegram or in zoom, have ideas on what they would like to see?

D

Next, I I personally I'd like to I'd like to show how to start a full node and then how to start indexers and then and then we could build up to running bch api because I'd really like to see more people running their own infrastructure. um That's me, but I'm I'm wondering if anybody else has other thoughts.

A

No, that's good. We would love to hear from you guys on on what you'd like to see done. Maybe uh maybe we should take a trip through the avex gly wallet. You know that's another idea.

D

Yeah, that would be a natural extension to what we covered in the last video yeah.

C

I, if anybody hasn't watched it, that's on youtube right now. One of the reasons I would say definitely watch chris and aaron. They are on together, walking through how to use the bch, clyde wallet and and sometimes aaron's, making a mistake and chris is helping and sometimes there's an error, but it really helps us all realize that we all start somewhere we're all learning, and you know I think, that's a really great example of someone going. Look. All you need to do is download node.js on your computer, pull that github repository down and start trying.

C

I mean, and the great part about the point you made in the in the video chris was: that um was that you don't need the test net specifically because bch is so easy and inexpensive to use. Besides the fact that you know you can put 20 cents out there and you can do all of this work, you can move sats around. It's super inexpensive. You know you're working on you're, not worried about losing 20 cents, because who cares put another 20 cents and put it you know.

C

So I love the fact that you guys have done that, and I appreciate that. I I personally one of the things that I did right now is: I did it on windows, then I also brought it up on a digital ocean ubuntu box, and I realized that I've got some permissions issues and I don't know where they're at so I mean if you do it on linux and on windows 2. I realize that's a lot of additional work, but that'd be great stuff.

C

Because to your point I don't I'm not gonna dev on windows, I mean it's not gonna run on windows later, so I might as well move it to my linux box instead, so yeah, something like that would be helpful.

D

Yeah aaron's bringing up something that we talked about um before the live stream is as as as a personal choice. As for me as a developer, I try to develop on the same system that I deploy to, which is ubuntu.

D

That way, I don't have surprises when I used to develop on windows. I'd have all sorts of issues, and I also see other devs today still have these issues when they go to deploy something. There's there's just a little subtle difference between running no javascript on windows and no javascript on ubuntu, but virtually all of the web is deployed on linux machines.

D

um So if you're gonna have a really hard time trying to be a dev that doesn't use linux.

A

Yeah linux- I like linux, better uh in that video I was using git bash, which is like the terminal simulator for windows, because I I learned to use command line with linux, so git bash just makes sense, and I'm really glad we did.

D

That, because a lot of developers do start on windows, you know as hobbyists as they're learning. You know you use whatever tools you have at your fingertips and a lot of times. That is windows.

A

Yeah right yeah, a lot of people uh get a windows, computer and they're. They don't know if they want to wipe it and reinstall linux, cell or yeah, but you could always use a virtual machine if you wanted to uh and run some linux and then dev and that so.

D

A

D

That's I'm a big advocate of that like if people you know if they get sort of frustrated if they're trying to use windows and they get sort of frustrated trying to use some of the software that the psf puts out five dollars a month or less, I think two dollars and fifty cents a month will get you a vps on like lie, note or vulture or digital ocean. uh You know the sign up process is very fast.

D

There's also um the names escaping me, but there is a website that lets you buy a vps with bitcoin cash and you can do it anonymously and they you can either choose to use. I think it's vulture or hetzner or digitalocean, and then the price is different. But essentially what you get is a linux machine in the cloud um you know and rick neum just says, spore stack is something worth checking out as well, so so anyways.

D

These are all ways to inexpensively and and very quickly get access to a virtu to a to a linux terminal and then and and then all of our software will run. Because that's that's the os that all of our software targets, adam.

A

Adam chubnikov, in that chat, says you could always do a second physical machine and that's true. You can uh go to craigslist and usually get a second-hand computer pretty cheap. You know that you can run some of this stuff on and.

D

Yeah also a pi 400, which is a raspberry pi and a keyboard, and all like that. All of our software will run on that because I have one and I run all of them right.

A

So and those are relatively cheap, um the pi 400.

C

A

Yeah 100 bucks uh and then I want to give a shout out to sam. I am records in the chat and I want to let you know I dropped the link to the video we've been talking about in the chat for you, sam, so.

D

Nice, nice yeah, uh so I managed to find that I'm gonna share my screen all right and I managed to find the shapeshift governance uh diagram that I was looking for.

D

So there's there's multiple ways to access this. I access it through boardroom shapeshift. This is sort of the go-to dashboard for doing for interacting with the governance process in shapeshift, but this is actually being pi. There's another there's a discourse forum that this information is coming from, so you can interact with it either way, but uh this uh diagram is the uh what I wanted to show it kind of gives a high level overview once you sort of know how to read it.

D

um Let me see if I can uh well, my face is kind of covering up what my face is covering.

A

Up there on the all right I'll get rid of it.

D

A

D

Well, it's fine, I can just explain it. They're just partners so so shape shift is its main scope, but the reason it exists is that is to facilitate trading of cryptocurrencies, of crypto to crypto, so bitcoin for ethereum uh or tether for bitcoin, or you know whatever, like like different erc 20 tokens for one another, um just trying to facilitate crypto to crypto transactions, and so the big move that shapeshift has done has to instead being an exchange themselves.

D

They are simply a front end for uniswap and thor chain and all these decentralized exchanges so that they they are no longer custodians.

D

So they have partnerships with these other dows and and and other organizations in the ethereum space and other exchanges, um and so and they get they get revenues from that, so that's their their primary revenue stream. I always believe in following the money, so that's where their money's coming from the bulk of their money has come. So that's the money into the dow, but then their their plan for governance moving forward are these work streams and so they've broke broken up all the different aspects of their business into these different work streams.

D

So they've got the product. They've got the marketing they've got development.

D

They've got uh you know the just a work stream for for focusing on progressive decentralization because because they have to unwind their corporate structure um and then you know they have a work stream for just for focusing on the token economics, and so each of these work streams gets um gets like a like a work stream leader and then that that leader assembles squads of individuals and then and then they execute, and so it's it's very similar to a hierarchical org chart that you'd see in a corporation except that nolan's actually employed here the what happens in terms of again following the money is the money coming into the dow treasury gets.

D

um Let me see if I can remember this: basically people they submit proposals and um and a certain and then there's there's this whole proposal process. There's like a the ideation phase, then there's a soft proposal and then there's a hard proposal and by the time it reaches the hard proposal thing where people with fox tokens actually vote on it. If it passes, then um money is transferred from the treasury to uh this.

D

The work stream account and then the work stream leader has a key to access that work stream account and that whole process of moving money from the treasury to the work stream account is uh involves no humans, it's all smart contracts and- um uh and so this whole this whole voting process does not involve any sort of administration.

D

It's all smart contracts, no one can stop it or prevent it from happening, and- um and so that's how the money gets to essentially a work stream leader who is answerable to the community and uh and then that work stream leader, essentially, you know, finds the end. Hopefully, by the time they have a funded proposal. They've already found the individuals that that are are going to be actually executing on that plan.

D

So uh so so not not terribly complex, if you just boil it down to those sort of high level high level things um and not dissimilar to how we've been doing things, um just not, we've just been doing them on a smaller scale, and so I'm hoping that we can mimic this, especially with the pay-to-write database. I think that there are many applications I can think of like two off the top.

D

My head is a decentralized exchange and a decentralized craigslist that could make use of the pay-to-write database, which would provide us an income stream, and we already have the merit system, and so it it wouldn't. You know we could move to smart contracts. If that's what we need to do, I I think there are other things that we can do uh native to the bitcoin cash blockchain or the x chain on on avalanche to to integrate a lot of this functionality, um but yeah it's just. It's definitely inspirational.

C

Let me go ahead and stop sharing so quick question on the on payroll database, so we'll be using the psf tokens is that the toupee is that the plan.

D

Yeah so the way it works is um anyone can read from the database. Anyone can write to the database, but the consensus rules that ship by default is that, in order to write to the database, you have to submit a proof of burn that you've burned, .01 psf tokens, and so you submit a transaction id and then each individual copy of the of the database uh verifies it independently and it'll. Go and it'll it'll check that transaction id to make sure that it it it burned.

D

At least that amount of psf tokens and then that's your ticket to add an entry to the database and then from there it gets replicated out to all the other instances of the database. Wow. Is there.

C

An example of this that's uh anything close to this. That's out there, I've not heard of anything similar.

D

No, nothing like this has ever existed before I mean it's, the the idea is very similar to a blockchain right, um but, and so it's I like to call it's a database with blockchain like qualities and uh it it leverages uh orbit db, which is a ipfs based database, and so really the only tweak I made was to the access control logic uh that that determines who who can and can't write to the database to add that little that little hook to check to check a transaction id against the blockchain.

A

Yeah, going back to talking about shapeshift a little bit um what I I do like about this idea of bringing a proposal of something to uh to the community and saying I'm looking for funding for x and then the commun. You have to make your case. You have to state it.

A

You got to convince the people that are part of the community, that this is a good direction to go and if you end up getting the funds and failing well, you're, probably not likely to get funds again, whereas in a traditional corporate structure, you, as the ceo, could totally mess up a business and then move on to your next ceo job and all the people that are part of the company are left to pick up the pieces, and so there's some accountability there. That I really like about this structure and.

D

Yeah, I think it's really helpful to compare and contrast it against a flip starter, um because what we've seen with flip starter is that people tend to fund like the the noise, the the loudest most popular thing, and there aren't very many people funding those flip starters that are like thinking like well, who is this person, and can they actually execute on this idea? Because.

C

D

Lot of times they don't and they can't, um and so compare and contrast that with how shape shift is, is, is doing it where there's uh the ideation phase, which is basically you start talking about it in the chat room and you start feeling people out and then from there. You move to a forum post so that you can actually have long-form discussion about it.

D

And then you move from there to a soft proposal which is like it's not required, but it's a way to to really test the waters and see if a proposal would actually pass if there's enough interest in the community to actually pass the proposal.

D

So while that's not required, it's highly recommended, and then you can move on to a hard proposal where people really vote on it and then and real funds are involved. And so I love. I love that, like four stage process that they're developing.

A

Do you think that there are any uh negatives in terms of speed of action with this sort of process.

D

No because there shouldn't be anything that is uh like immediately needed, um I mean there and if you think about the scope I mean the scope is really critical. Here, like shapeshift is a product. They do a very specific thing. They generate money, doing that very specific thing, like they're not going to go fund a new blockchain, because that's just way outside the scope of what they're doing they would never recoup those costs.

D

So I mean in I like the focus on the money like money in money out. The money in should be more than the money out, and everybody in the dow is responsible for managing that collectively and- uh and I I want to apply that very same mentality to the psf. I mean we're producing things like and then encryption for messages, and you know we're trying one of the things I'd want to do very first thing: I want to pay to write databases, support the swap protocol and enable people to trustlessly trade tokens.

D

um You know that's a valuable service. People will pay for that, um so we should be able to develop income streams as a dow and and then spend those income streams to make our the services that we provide more valuable and uh so that this is why I'm paying so close, I think, shape shift is just such a great model for us to follow. I love the fact that you're actually also.

C

Building on vin's uh or is it his cyprion? I don't follow his name anymore, um his swap protocol because I feel like that was a big move forward, and no one's really done with it. If you can take something like the paid the payroll database and make something that extends all these other really great ideas, that's going to really change a lot in terms of how bch and how these other, like associate blockchains, are actually adding huge amount of value that others aren't yet.

D

Yeah yeah, um thank you. I mean that those are my thoughts exactly when ben came out with it. I immediately started dissecting it into its component parts and like trying to understand. Okay like you've, got a you've got this at the heart of it. Is this collaborative uh transaction right idea and then there's end-to-end encryption to allow all the parties to coordinate privately and then they're? um You know, then there's other things.

D

There's this whole the whole data passing protocol, which is on chain- and that was like the only part of it that I wasn't like didn't give me warm fuzzy feelings, and so what I'd like to do is move that off chain onto the right database.

C

D

This is much more practical at scale and um and also would provide the income stream for the psf. If I.

B

D

uh And that was my main objection to vin, which you know ben's. Just an application developer he's just building an application. It's not within it's, not his problem to worry about scaling the blockchain blockchain's. There he's just trying to use it, but as someone who operates fullstack.cache, which is infrastructure as a service, it is my problem and and- and I can very clearly see how my problems are going to increase as the blockchain size increases right, and uh so that's why I'm so passionate about moving the data off chain.

D

I would like to live in a world where we pretty much just use um pruned nodes, because those are much easier to decentralize and much easier to operate. uh So that's that's. Sort of some people have asked me like. Oh am I building swap it's like? Well, no, because swap is really vin's creation, I'm building something very similar to swap something that I hope will be backwards compatible with swap, but but yeah uses uses a lot of the same ideas, and not only can you do token transactions, you can do escrow.

D

That's the other use case of swap that I'm.

C

Very interested.

D

In we need both, I mean the the token trading is trustless, so you don't need escrow for that, but to build a decentralized uncensorable craigslist. We are going to need escrow, for that and, uh and so swap swap kills two birds with one.

A

Stone in the uh chat we have adam trebnikov says speed seems to be irrelevant, which is a huge advantage in the ottoman in an automated process. So, yes, yeah.

D

Now, plus, if there was, if there were yeah, that I want to come back to your question there about immediacy, because where I do see, immediacy or the need for immediacy and immediate action is like you know, they do have a product and let's say a server, goes down. Well someone's responsible for that, and that would be the work stream leader.

C

D

I'm I'm paying very close attention to the engineering, work stream uh and and a lot of the a lot of the the people who are currently shape-shift. Employees are going to be those work stream leaders I mean they have to be voted in by the community, but right now that's not very hard because most of the community is the company right, um and so that's how they're making this transition.

D

And so there will be some one person in charge of say, keeping the website up. uh Who will get a phone call in the middle of night if it's not up, and uh so all of that is still retained in the dow structure and.

C

D

C

Yeah, so I want to mention something about shape shift if I've been a shape of shift user for the past. Well ever since it started, um and if you, if you have been or if you've ever used them, go check your ethereum wallet because you might get an airdrop worth 500, I mean literally, I made 500 worth of shape-shift tokens just dropped in by into my ethereum accounts, so just go check them. It's definitely worth it. Anybody who's! Watching later I mean it's real cash money.

C

It's the first airdrop that's been given out in the past two years. That's actually worth I mean it's just.

D

Yeah- and I think it ends at the end of this month, if you haven't claimed them, they there's a hook in that contract of the airdrop. That will pull the tokens back and put them in the treasury, and that's what a lot of the people are kind of waiting for is is like the treasury's going to get like 2 million there's like 2 million dollars just floating around in the air right now, and I think it I don't know exactly what the date is.

D

I think it's the end of this month um that anyone that hasn't claimed their airdrop, all those funds will get pulled back into the treasury. So so you can get benefit just by watching this video, because this is the.

C

Real money you can grab if you use it, go ahead. Aaron sorry.

A

I was going to say aaron. um If you've used shape shifts in the past. You can they're going to distribute tokens how's that working. So how do we know if we have tokens.

C

Yeah, so what I would say is everybody who's used, shapeshift and or anyone who's used roon. Actually, if you have a roon address, there's quite a few different things, but all you have to do is go through look at your um go log into shapeshift and look at your ethereum account and then paste that into they have a little tool. It'll tell you. If you have any, and um I mean I was surprised, because there was a thousand fox tokens sitting there for me to click a button and get and they're 53 cents a piece.

D

C

Definitely worth doing, and it really takes about three minutes.

D

Yes to anybody who has used metamask over the last year and like like, if you have your seed backed up, but you haven't touched that wallet like load it and check it, because that's where, like some of your like, if you you don't even have to have used shape-shift like if you've used, uni uniswap, which you may have used accidentally, if you tried to switch into a stable coin like like yeah, that's that's the thing like just pull out all your ethereum wallets and and check and check them to see. If there's anything.

A

There, nice, that was something uh I have a question about: token distribution and how? How is it working with shapeshift and uh what? What are some good policies going forward for uh because we've talked about merit and we talked about uh getting people into the community. That may not have a lot of money, but they can put in time and earn merit that can be equivalent to a certain amount of tokens over time. um How? How do we best approach, handling the token distribution which ultimately leads to say in the dao.

D

Well, that's still very much an open-ended question, but one of the things I'm paying attention to with the fox token is that they have never sold the fox token they've, only rewarded it to people who have used shapeshift, they've nev, like they. They have avoided selling it directly because that would potentially make them a security.

C

D

And you can still you know: individual people can trade it. There is a market for them, but as a company they have refrained from ever selling any tokens, interesting and, um and so but they've had these tokens they've been sitting on them for quite a while and in the next few months I think it's like eric voris is going to get five percent of the of the total supply.

D

um You know, which is, he owns a third of the company, so that's actually a pretty big downgrade um and it's something like the treasury's going to end up with, like 40 of the tokens um to distribute for work done. You know uh and and they've never done that before, and it's going to be really interesting to see how that affects the value of the token um you know so, like a few days ago it was trading for 70 cents.

D

I think it's kind of in the 50 cent range now and so and so they're actually going to start. You know they've never used the token to actually like do things um and they're going to start that, and so the token value will probably fluctuate wildly um and, uh and so that'll be interesting to see because we've had our own.

D

You know we, we have our own closed economy, where you know we can produce as many psf tokens as we want, but but when we deploy those tokens to developers to get work done, you know they cash them out and that causes the value to go down. So this is why it's so important for us as a dow to to focus on our income streams and build out our income streams. um You know so that we don't just tank the price of our token yeah and and they're going to have that same challenge.

D

They have not had it yet they are going to go into it and it'll be really interesting to see how they manage it.

A

Well, that's that's one of the ideas that I've thought about and I was actually uh talking with um a guy that I'm working with uh adam he's in the chat. We were talking about the idea of all right.

A

If we build a company and then we create tokens for essentially ownership like a dow and then uh when we go to hire contractors to do the work, we give them an option of we'll pay you in these tokens, but you can cash the tokens out for payment or you can keep the tokens which leads towards ownership essentially, and maybe this is a way I don't know. Maybe this is a way that helps to weed out the people that are really serious.

A

uh This one guy just wants to get paid to do web dev, that's fine, or maybe he says, I'm gonna take half of the money to do web dev and I'm take half of it in tokens and have some say in the community and you watch people almost build up their standing. That way, I don't know if it'll work that way. I I know there's that there are regulatory things, I'm not not sure where this stands.

A

You know, because this is new territory, but I could see that as one way that you can make sure the people are serious about it.

D

Well, one way I could see this playing out and this would naturally lead to a partnership between shapeshift and psf. So I'm kind of hoping this turns into reality is that um we, as our own dap, could start like. I mean they're, not very interested in the bitcoin cash blockchain, or they are a little bit interested in the avalanche blockchain um and if we can provide, you know a way to swap tokens on some of these blockchains that they don't have exposure to that benefits their business. It benefits our business.

D

I could definitely see a scenario where our dow is for essentially becomes a contractor to their dow and they pay us in fox tokens and then and then, as a dow, we use those fox tokens to uh vote on on initiatives in the shapeshift dow that benefit us uh and we vote proportional to the amount of people with psf tokens. You know, so we get this.

D

This sort of symbiotic and they're and they're doing this right now, they're they're, reaching out what did they reach out to uh I'm forgiving some of the names but there's multiple organiz ethereum based organizations where they're giving them fox tokens in exchange for their token, and so like the dollar amount. uh You know it is net zero, but but now the the organizations are tied together if the fox token goes up that organization benefits. If that organization's token goes up.

D

The fox token benefits um so you're, starting to see these these strategic token swaps all over the place- and I would very much like us to get in on that.

A

C

To aaron's point, one of the things that I think interesting that hasn't brought up is that a lot of the people that work for shapeshift right now they're because they're erc20 tokens there's a smart contract, that's locked them, so they can't be spent for three years.

C

So they're more associating trying to figure out how to take these people and want the value to go up. So when they are released, they can get the value. That's higher right. So.

A

So to your point, I.

C

Mean you, I don't think slp allows for like those kind of thing I don't know, what's happening with smart bch or you know how we can eventually get some of those smart contracts built in, but something like that to where you you know, give out something so that people can eat tonight today, developers can do web dev and can eat tonight right because they're hungry, but also have a stake long term. Those kind of things are really great.

C

So I I just love these ideas being thrown out and using somebody who's doing something different to to add value to ours as well.

D

Yeah that that topic is something I'm very much trying to pay attention to, and I would like for us to collectively pay attention to that, because I mean there are time locks. We can definitely lock slp tokens up for amount of time on the blockchain there's also just multi-sig wallets. That's the easiest way to do. It is just put it in a multi-sig wallet, but then then you're relying on humans to unlock it for you um and that has regulatory side effects.

D

Possibly I don't know, um but then you know yeah, there's the all the evm there's the smart bch side chain, there's the avalanche blockchain. I I'm keeping an eye on smart bch, especially in the last week that things have really uh started moving there and that's a natural fit for our bitcoin cash side of things. I'm also really paying attention to avalanche because they've got you know: zero conf. uh Their tokens are a first-class citizen in that they're minor validated.

D

You can't burn them like can sop tokens and they have the functionality now to move tokens from the x chain to the p chain. So you can write smart contracts.

D

They interact with a token that you can then move to the x chain that you can then move across our bridge to the bch and then move again over to the ecash, so so we're gonna. We already have most of the infrastructure in place for moving a token across three or four different blockchains and uh and and so then we can leverage.

D

You know, whichever is the best for our business needs. uh You know in terms of whatever we want to do say, locking, locking away a token and then distributing it over time. You know you know in an unsensible way.

A

D

A

We have adam in the chat says: immediate payment is an incentive to keeping interest in non-token holders. This way we can cater to both worlds and so yeah. I think, there's something to be said to giving an option you know set like you could have an option where you say uh we can lock these up they'll be like an escrow.

A

We can give these to you now or we can flat out pay you and the you it almost would become like well. If somebody wants to get paid less and hold on to these tokens and be able to have more voice in the organization. Well, they've earned that through their actions, you know.

C

That's interesting, like you do 1x today or 2x, you know you actually get paid twice as much if you, if you lock them, if you're willing to have them locked up, but you still get the merit from them or something you.

A

Know yeah I mean these: are these are completely new areas, we're figuring this out uh new new ways of looking at how to run things. uh One other question I have is: uh how do we deal with the misguided charismatic leader problem? Is that's what I would cone it coin it. You know the person that everybody gravitates to but they're, just they're, taking it in the wrong direction.

D

Well, I I think this is why I'm watching shape shift so closely. I think they've.

D

I think they've cracked, that nut in in that, in that the actual distribution of tokens is not under any one person's control and and that I mean you are going it's this paradigm of like we need leaders but not uh benevolent dictators uh and- uh and so I think, they've really, cracked- that nut, where you know uh eric voorhees, who is the ceo, the commander of shapeshift, the company he's simply going to be an influential member of the dow um and his his you know his whatever he says is always going to carry a lot of weight and he's also going to have a significant amount of tokens um to throw that weight around.

D

But uh but, at the end of the day, he's he's just an influential member.

A

Well, his his weight was earned too. You know through what he built, so I can see um as well as a dow works a little bit different than a company, um because the you, the community itself, is dependent on the dow doing well and- and so therefore, uh so I I can see some issues coming in um maybe have to be dealt with, or can somebody come in and just uh corporate buy out and and just a corporation buy a ton of tokens and then have a big say like?

A

How would you deal with that sort of thing? You know.

D

Yeah that'll be interesting to see with shapeshift out some some whale moves and tries to buy a crap load of tokens and then and then and then all the people who have been working hard and have been accumulating tokens there. All of a sudden incentivized sell a bunch which means they are less influential, um so yeah. I could definitely see like a a negative feedback loop happening there um for for us, for our dow we've already anticipated this in the in the business plan.

D

In that, like the the token, is not terribly important, and this is this is one advantage. We have over ethereum tokens in that in that on ethereum you, smart contracts and a specific token that works with a specific contract and to try and switch to a new token is like basically a non-starter. That is a very expensive.

D

I don't even know how you do that it would be a catastrophic event, but um on the bitcoin cash blockchain using slp tokens, um you know if, like worst case scenario, let's say I got hit by a bus or get black backed by the government. Well, all this all the software is open source. All we have to do is run a query on all the addresses holding psf tokens airdrop a new token and then do a pull request to all the repositories to use the new token.

D

That's like four hours of work and uh and we're humming along my hand.

C

Probably 10 bucks worth of cost transactions right. It would be really inexpensive by comparison as well.

A

Yeah, I agree, and you know some of it can be too like one of the consideration is: are tokens for a doubt open to the public or is it or are you? uh Do you distribute a different way? You know we we've always taken this idea of token distribution like here. We go. Everybody buy the tokens everybody in the world instead of saying. Well, maybe we don't do that? Maybe we have certain people we that we know believe in this. We create tokens, distribute them to them.

A

You have a treasury like you're, talking about you're, distributing to people that work and as people work. They move up in this uh in this way and it would also keep it so like with shapeshift putting all these tokens out right away.

A

You get a whale coming in you get that negative feedback loop like you're talking about, but um if you're building a company- and you don't put those tokens out right away and you start distributing those to the uh the workers of the company, the only way for a whale to get them is through that slow trickle of distribution from those people that are actually working to build the company right.

A

So that could be another way to approach like a startup where you're worried about somebody just coming in and crushing the thing right away. I mean thoughts on that.

D

We're going to have to see how it plays out. I mean honestly, this is a new paradigm like there is no history on these things. No one's ever done these things before like, and it's all going to get tried and some of it's going to be catastrophe, and some of it's going to be just amazing and.

C

D

Gonna watch it all play out in the next like five years.

C

Yeah- and it is interesting because one of the reasons- craig wright and I'm I'm not a big fan of the guy, but one thing he's he's right about- is: we've not really hit up against an adversarial full-on adversarial network. Yet I mean we have had no one who's come in and tried to take over, like a concerted, government-wide effort to do these things. So, like he's saying, I don't need to make friends, because eventually it's going to be a big adversarial issue and someone, so I'm not going to make friends, I don't care about that.

C

I'm going to be a to everybody, you know, so it is interesting to see. You know make sure that we build something. That's not just friends that work together, but also can combat an adversarial, and I think it's a good point. Someone comes in and buys a whole bunch and.

D

What do you do that's worth dwelling on for a moment, because my feeling on that topic is that it's it's fiction, it's it. It will never see an adversarial situation.

D

I mean particularly craig wright's, usually referring to hash wars um which, like, if you go, if you look at avalanche or you look at you know the avalanche protocol that abc is integrating and the ecash uh they have. They already have the token distribution.

D

um That's important, I mean there's, there's so much nuance here and I'm I'm gonna gloss over a lot of it, but um assuming that you already have an even token distribution, that's a big assumption, but, like you, can look at e cash and they already have that um you can look at avalanche they're. Getting there uh the um assuming you have equal, uh even token, distribution um for a bitcoin cash blockchain using pure nakamoto consensus.

D

You know so bitcoin cash uh if their price, you know the same thing could happen and then it happened to bsv and that and that an adversary could, with more hash, could just all over their blockchain and and make it. You know essentially unusable and unreliable, um but ecash can't because they have uh they have post consensus.

D

So all the users, not just the miners, but the the users and the exchanges and everybody else.

D

That's not a miner, but has a stake in that in in that blockchain operating correctly, they they all have a chance to use to coordinate, using post consensus, to fight off a minor with greater hash and uh and so and so the network, which has an incentive, a strong, strong incentive to continue to function properly, can fend off that that one sort of adversarial situation, which is usually what craig wright is referring to yeah um and uh because there really is no other serious attack vector other than that right. You're talking about.

C

D

C

Yeah state actor but regulation and then hash, I think, that's pretty much the two main ones.

C

Unless you like try to flood like you know, thousand twitter bots, you know take down somebody's because they just can't get through with all the crap, but you know is there? Is there just like I mean I I I. I really hope that goes. The.

D

Way, you're talking so the real. So my point is the really obvious attack vectors that that still exist, which there's not very many of them, are getting solved um if they haven't been solved yet which which really only leads you know, I I one one of the analogies that I I'm fond of giving is that uh you know how do you heard developers because they're not sheep, they're, more, like cats? How do you heard cats? Well, you don't go them with a stick.

D

You you put treats and you invite them to come where you want them to go, and I think that is the paradigm that we've moved into with crypto is that violence is a non-option they're? Just you can't you can't use the stick anymore. All the only thing you have available is the carrot, and, uh and so while we probably will see drama and maybe networks, having fights with other networks like blockchains having fights with other blockchains, there won't be anything that resembles violence there.

D

um It will only be a voluntary like I like these people better than these people and therefore I'm going to use this product and not that product. That's a great.

A

D

A

No, I think, that's that's great and um to pull pull this back a little bit to the topic of merit. um Maybe this is another way like you've created this idea of merit and tokens, and- and maybe you weren't the first one, but this can be another way to stop that whale from coming in, because that will might buy those tokens, but he may not have the merit to be that they may not be charged so to speak. You know.

D

A

Merit and able to act right so also.

D

With uh I mean also in in the past, there's been this threat of like miners, getting more than 51 percent of the network, which is sort of equivalent to in proof of stake, a whale moving in and taking them and having a disproportionate say, the risk of that whale so that in the past the risk of the of the too much mining power is that you know you're sort of eroding trust in the blockchain at that point.

D

So it's it's in the best interest of that mining pool to then like break apart and and so that, so that no one pool has more than 51 of the hatch rate in proof of stake.

D

um These whales that could have a disproportionate influence because they accumulate too much that they have a they have a an incentive to to not do that, because all the other minor players could just like in the case of psf, if that happened with psf.

D

Well, if that one whale like did was trying to throw their weight around all the everyone. That's not that whale could essentially just fork off and airdrop tokens to everyone. That's not the whale and uh and and just that's basically how they just shove the whale out of the system, yeah and uh and and keep on chugging along. These are great.

A

Ideas for how this these things can work. You know questions we need to ask ourselves as as we venture into this territory, and I think these are some great solutions to those problems.

D

Yeah yeah: well, it's been about an hour. I think we should probably wrap this up. It's been a great meeting.

A

As usual, awesome awesome, so we will see everybody next week for the comcom meeting and uh chris, and I are planning on doing a another video friday so uh should hopefully have that up friday or saturday for you and you guys can check that out and aaron. You got a great name thanks for joining us and.

C

Had one thing to say: I think he wanted. Could we give him give him a second.

D

Yeah yeah well, I was actually just going to recommend that we uh move it over to the telegram room, uh just yeah. I want to hear what he has to say too, but uh yeah. We should probably wrap this up. Oh, uh he says he's launching a flip starter for the cash fusion red team, um part of it's to make this more feature complete and he shared a link. Okay, I uh ruckniam.

D

um Please share that in the telegram room and and yeah for everyone, if you don't know where the telegram room go to psfoundation.cache, that's our website, scroll to the bottom, go to the footer. There's telegram, link right! There that'll take you to the telegram room and that's where we're going to continue this conversation and that's where the the main conversations are happening.

A

All right we'll talk to you guys later and uh get stay safe, all right, bye,.