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From YouTube: Committee on Streets and Services 3-10-2022
Description
The Committee on Streets and Services of the Council of the City of Philadelphia held a Public Hearing on Thursday, March 10, 2022, at 1:00 PM to hear testimony on the following items:
220132 Resolution authorizing the Committee on Streets and Services to hold hearings regarding Beets, Brine and Salt regarding the recipe for Philadelphia’s Streets in Winter in order to advance our interests in safe roads, healthy streams and good stewardship of resources and the taxpayers funds.
B
That's
terrible
good
afternoon:
everybody
today
is
thursday
march
10
2022.
This
is
the
committee
on
streets
and
services
hearing,
and
I
want
to
welcome
everybody
to
today's
hearing.
I
understand
that
state
law
currently
requires
that
the
following
announcement
be
made
at
the
beginning
of
every
remote
public
hearing
as
follows.
Due
to
the
current
public
health
emergency
city,
council
committees
are
currently
meeting
remotely.
B
We
are
using
microsoft
teams
to
make
these
remote
hearings
possible
instructions
for
how
the
public
may
view
an
awful
public.
Testimony
at
any
public
hearings
of
city
council
of
council
committees
are
included
in
the
public
hearing,
notices
that
are
published
in
the
daily
news:
inquire,
legal
intelligence
and
illegal
intelligence
prior
to
hearings
and
can
also
be
found
on
phl
council
dot
com.
I
know
that
the
hour
has
come
it's
golden.
Will
you
please
call
the
wool
to
take
attendance
members
that
are
intended?
B
B
I'm
president
and
thank
you,
everybody,
a
quorum
of
the
committee
is
present
and
this
hearing
is
now
called
the
order.
This
is
the
public
hearing
of
the
committee
on
streets
and
services
regarding
bill
number
two
to
zero.
One:
three,
two,
ms
golden:
will
you
please
read
the
titles
of
the
bills
for
today.
B
Before
we
begin
to
hear
testimony
from
the
witnesses
we
have
before
us
today,
everyone
who's
been
invited
to
the
meeting
to
testify
should
be
aware
that
this
public
hearing
is
being
recorded,
because
the
hearing
is
public.
Participants
and
viewers
have
no
reasonable
expectation
of
privacy.
By
continuing
to
be
in
the
meeting,
you
are
consenting
to
being
recorded
additionally
prior
to
recognizing
members
for
questions
or
comments
they
have
for
the
witnesses.
B
I
will
know
for
the
record
at
this
time
that
we
will
use
the
chat
feature
available
in
microsoft
teams
to
allow
members
to
to
signify
that
they
would
like
to
be
recorded
recognized
in
order
to
comply
with
the
sunshine
act.
The
chat
feature
must
only
be
used
for
this
purpose.
Mrs
golden,
will
you
please
call
the
the
well?
We
talked
you
called
the
bill
already.
So
will
you
please.
B
C
Good
afternoon,
chairman
thomas
and
members
of
the
streets
and
services
committee,
my
name
is
richard:
montanus
deputy
commissioner
for
transportation,
for
the
department
of
streets
here
with
me,
is
steve,
lorenz
chief
highway
engineer
for
the
department
of
streets,
I'm
here
today
to
present
testimony
on
resolution
number
220132
regarding
the
use
of
beets,
brine
and
salt
in
the
winter
to
treat
roadways
during
snow
events
when
performing
winter
operations.
During
an
event,
there
is
a
balance
between
clearing
the
street
with
salt
and
being
mindful
of
the
environment.
C
It
is
important
to
make
sure
all
streets
are
clear
of
snow
and
ice
for
safe
travel.
This
is
not
only
important
for
the
safety
of
the
uses
of
the
road,
but
also
to
keep
commercial
moving
in
and
out
of
our
city.
In
addition,
not
only
do
we
use
salt
in
the
winter
operations,
but
we
also
support
the
philadelphia
water.
C
C
There
are
hundreds
of
different
scenarios
that
a
winter
storm
can
bring,
ranging
from
freezing
rain
ice
up
to
a
22-inch
blizzard
that
occurred
in
2017
also
philadelphia
is
unique
in
its
geography,
which
presents
challenges.
The
meteorologists
always
refer
to
the
rain
snow
line
along
the
I-95
corridor.
One
of
the
reasons
it
was
constructed
along
the
delaware
river
was
because
of
the
weather
condition
being
the
between
the
ocean
and
the
mountain.
C
There
is
also
a
500
foot
difference
between
the
philadelphia
international
airport
and
the
hills
of
chestnut
hill.
It
is
possible
to
have
rain
in
south
philly,
while
snowing
up
to
six
inches
in
the
far
northeast
and
northwest
along
the
schuylkill
river.
The
temperatures
can
be
lower
than
the
rest
of
the
city
due
to
the
river
salt
is
the
most
effective
and
quickest
way
to
treat
roadways
not
only
within
the
city,
but
also
across
the
country.
However,
there
are
environmental
impacts.
C
C
C
The
city
has
a
capacity
to
stock
over
50
000
tons
of
salt,
but
that
does
not
mean
that
we
use
it
other
efforts
to
minimize
the
salt
are
we
we
eliminate
mostly
dry
salting
dry
salting
is
treating
the
roads
prior
to
the
start
of
a
winter
event.
Salt
salting
now
begins
when
the
snow
starts
to
fall,
calibrating
the
augers
and
spreaders
in
the
back
of
our
truck,
so
that
they
are
not
full
spreading
full
on
most
city
streets.
C
A
low
and
medium
setting
is
appropriate,
exploring
different
types
of
roadway
surfaces
that
have
larger
aggregates
that
we
that
will
hold
the
salt
and
act
as
anti-skid
before
winter.
The
streets
department
and
the
office
of
emergency
management
hold
sep,
separate
winter
workshops
where
assault
usage
is
discussed.
Topics
that
are
mentioned
include
the
downs.
The
downside
of
the
city
runs
out
of
salt
effects
of
salt
as
it
pertains
to
the
ms4
permit.
C
Ms4
is
short
for
municipal
separate
storm
sewer
system,
where
the
word
municipal
refers
to
the
unit
of
a
local
government
responsible
for
administration
of
the
developed
area.
How
salt
affects
pwd's
effort
to
treat
water
wastewater,
the
proper
maintenance
of
vehicles
to
spread
the
salt
increase,
the
use
of
brine?
C
The
administration
has
invested
in
our
brining
efforts
by
purchasing
two
trailers,
replacing
the
city's
flusher
trucks
and
purchasing
two
trucks
that
are
that
can
be
retrofit
with
water
tanks
that
can
be
used
for
brine.
Brian
is
an
effective,
proactive
way
to
get
ready
for
winter.
For
a
winter
event.
Brine
is
a
salt
water
mixture
that
gets
applied
to
the
road
surface,
about
48
to
72
hours
prior
to
known
winter
event.
C
If
there
is
rain
in
the
forecast
prior
to
the
snow
event,
we
do
not
brine.
The
streets
department
has
worked
brined
into
our
winter
operations
plan.
We
have
two
brine
making
stations,
so
we
do
not
need
to
purchase
any
ready-made
brine
brian
acts
as
an
anti-bonding
agent,
where
the
snow
will
start
to
belt
before
it
bonds
to
the
road.
This
gives
enough
time
for
the
salt
trucks
to
appropriately
treat
the
road
we
focus
on
higher
level
streets
and
primary
roadways
with
the
prime.
C
C
C
It
is
a
rare
occurrence
when
the
city
falls
into
low
periods
of
low
temperature,
where
beet
juice
will
be
needed
when
it
has.
In
the
past
daytime
temperatures
are
in
the
20s
with
the
sun.
This
will
activate
the
salt.
We
discussed
the
usage
of
beet
juice
years
ago
and
determined
that
the
benefits
did
not
justify
the
usage.
C
Other
reasons
we
do
not
pursue
the
use
of
beet
juice
is
the
beet
juice
does
not
have
a
shelf
life
where
it
can
be
used
following
the
season.
It
can
be.
The
brine
stations
needed
to
be
retrofit
to
add,
beat
and
beat
juice
into
them.
Pwd
will
need
to
review
their
water
treatment
operations
to
see
what
needs
to
be
added
to
treat
additional
biological
residue.
C
Whatever
beet
juice
remains
on
this
on
the
street
after
the
snow
event
will
start
to
smell
like
rotten
vegetables
until
there
is
precipitation
that
washes
it
away.
Pwd
holds
and
updates
the
city's
ms4
permit.
With
the
pennsylvania
department
of
environmental
protection.
The
ms4
permit
regulates
the
city's
responsibility
of
hazards
going
into
the
rivers
and
streams.
The
streets
department
is
a
partner
with
pwd
for
the
ms4
permit.
The
managing
director's
office
created
the
clean
water
task
force,
in
which
salt
is
the
topic
of
conversation.
C
C
I
would
like
to
take.
I
would
like
to
use
this
opportunity
to
thank
all
of
the
city's
partners
who
help
with
providing
assistance
in
keeping
the
roadways,
clear
of
snow
and
ice
pwd
fleet
services,
the
sanitation
division
of
the
streets
department,
oem
clip
the
philadelphia
housing
authority,
authority
parks
and
recs
police,
the
philadelphia
parking
authority
prisons
and
the
pennsylvania
department
of
transportation.
B
D
Good
afternoon
council
people,
my
name,
is
john
krafcheck.
I
am
currently
the
senior
assistant
district
executive
for
maintenance.
Excuse
me
for
penndot
engineering
district
6-0.
I
was
asked
to
speak
about
our
treatment
processes
and
services
during
winter
events.
So
so
there
are
a
number
of
things
we
do.
Some
very
similar
to
the
city
as
rich
has
talked
about
retreating
payments
prior
to
winter
storm.
D
We
refer
to
that
as
anti-icing,
and
we
do
use
a
salt
brine,
which
is
a
which
we
manufacture
ourselves,
which
is
basically
a
water
solution
with
23
salt
suspended
in
it,
salt
brine
application
rates
depend
on
temperatures.
So
when
we
are
at
you
know,
25
degrees
or
above
we're,
applying
it
roughly
45
gallons
per
mile.
When
expected,
temperatures
are
15
to
24
degrees
or
as
high
as
60
gallons
per
mile.
We
apply
them
similar.
D
We
have
a
a
few
tiger
trucks,
but
mainly
we
have
slide
in
units
tanks
that
that
equip
with
spray
bars
that
we
can
slide
into
our
our
truck
fleet.
Some
of
the
benefits
are
that
our
better
payment
conditions
can
be
achieved
at
the
onset
of
the
storm,
reducing
the
number
of
crashes
bonding.
It
does
prevent
or
or
inhibit
the
bond
of
snowpack
to
the
roadway.
D
D
Ryan
sticks
to
the
rose
roadway
surface
is
not
easily
blown
off,
so
the
material
we
use
is
pretty
effective,
more
effective
than
putting
dry
salt
on
the
road,
which
is
off
often
dissipated
or
blown
off
the
road
by
vehicles,
and
it
increases
efficiency
results
in
use
of
less
desi
the
ice
or
manpower.
Therefore,
lowering
the
cost
of
maintaining
during
we
we
do.
D
We
only
apply
these
brines
ahead
of
snow,
snow,
sleet
and
freezing
rain
if
the
temperatures
are
warmer
and
it's
starting
out
as
plane
rain,
we
do
not
apply
brine
only
because
it
would
just
certainly
be
washed
off
the
roadways
during
a
storm.
Our
treatments,
we
put
a
lot
of
emphasis
on
planning,
so
we
lay
out
truck
routes
and
cycle
times.
The
idea
of
cycle
time
for
a
truck
is
between
two
and
three
hours
per
cycle,
meaning
the
point
at
which
he
starts
when
he
completes
his
loop.
D
He
gets
back
to
his
starting
point
within
the
two
three
hour
time
frame.
The
reason
for
this
is
to
give
time
for
the
salt
to
work.
Common
misunderstanding
is
salt
melts
snow
salt
does
not.
Salt
does
not
melt.
Snow
salt
lowers
the
freezing
point
of
water,
so
salt
needs
to
be
needs
to
be
in
a
solution
for
it
to
work
so
applying
snow
to
or
salty
snow
through
the
action
of
of
the
traffic
it
tends
to
generate.
D
You
know
my
new
particles
of
moisture,
which
then
turns
into
lowering
the
freezing
point
of
water
on
the
roadway.
So,
ideally
on
our
achieve
our
cycle
times
on
interface,
interstates
and
expressways,
we
plan
for
roughly
20
stolen
miles
per
truck
on
our
bpn2,
which
is
one
of
our
higher
networks,
but
not
to
the
interstate
level.
We're
about
25,
still
away
miles
per
truck.
D
Our
our
third
business
plan
network
we're
up
to
30
miles
and
our
back
rows
roar
roads,
our
snow
lane
mile
is
35
miles
per
truck.
Again
we
shoot
for
times
of
two
to
three
hours
on
cycle
times.
Salt
these
times
the
work
from
the
time
you
put
it
down
until
you
actually
see
some
benefit
can
be
anywhere
from
an
hour
to
two
hours.
D
Cycling
too
often,
especially
when
plowing
is
a
waste
of
salt
you're,
just
plowing
off
or
adding
more
salt
to
the
salt,
that's
already
in
place,
which
you
haven't
given
time
to
work,
contrary
to
belief,
more
salt
isn't
better.
When
you
look
at
you
know
the
freezing
point
at
which
salt
lowers
lowers
the
water.
It
can
go
down
to
as
low
as
you
know,
16
17
degrees.
However,
as
you
continue
to
add
more
more
salt
to
that
solution,
that
temperature
will
slowly
rise.
D
So
the
freezing
point
of
water
by
adding
too
much
salt
can
go
above
that
up
into
the
20
degrees.
So
we
spend
a
lot
of
time
educating
our
truck
drivers
on
the
science
of
winter
and
you
know,
explain
it
and
demonstrate
it
to
them.
So
they
understand
so
rock
salt
with
no
pre-wetting
application
rates
at
25
degrees
or
above
is
120
pounds
per
slowly
mild.
We
do
gauge
our
salt
uses
based
on
pavement
temperatures,
application
rates
below
25
degrees.
We
can
go
up
as
high
as
210
pounds
per
slowly
mile.
D
One
of
the
things
we've
moved
to
in
the
past
10
years
is
pre-wetting
our
salt
with
brine,
and
what
that
does
is
it
provides
the
moisture
to
the
salt
and
it's
sprayed
on
the
salt
as
it's
applied
to
the
roadway.
So
the
salt
is
already
on
in
solution
by
the
time
it
hits
the
roadway.
So
it
acts
quicker
and
works
better
and
allows
us
to
use
more
salt
or
less
salt
apple
application
rates
when
we're
pre-reading,
the
salt
can
at
25
degrees
or
above,
can
reduce
our
application
rate
to
100
pounds
per
snow.
D
So
by
the
use
of
pre-reading
salt,
we
can
reduce
our
salt
usage
during
a
storm
by
20
to
30
percent.
So
you
may
think
by
well
you're
still
spraying
it
with
a
salt
brine.
But
we
we
spray
our
our
salt
at
six
to
12
gallons
per
ton,
which
interprets
into
8.3
pounds
per
gallon,
so
on
average
per
ton,
we're
adding
two
pounds
of
chloride
to
it.
So
that's
next
to
nothing
and
but
we're
reducing
our
rock
salt
usage
by
20
to
30
percent.
D
There
are
a
number
of
other
products
on
the
market
we
penndot
did
several
years
ago,
worked
with
temple
university
context,
conduct
studies
on
the
four
of
four
of
the
alternatives.
Products
were
on
the
market
at
the
time,
pacific
northwest
snow
fighters
did
extensive
testing
in
conjunction
with
clear
roads,
and
so
not
readily
understood
is
because
it
is
an
agricultural
product
doesn't
mean
it's
all
natural
or
safe
to
our
roadways.
So
the
actual
de-sugared
beet
molasses
in
its
raw
form
does
nothing
to
melt
snow.
D
All
these
products,
when
subject
to
chemical
analysis,
have
chlorides
added
to
them.
I
believe
the
sugar
that
the
beet
heat
uses,
I
believe
sodium
and
calcium
chloride-
that's
added
to
it
to
make
it
effective.
Other
products
can
use
magnesium
chloride,
magnesium
acetate
potassium
acetate,
all
which
are
chlorides,
which
can
you
know,
add
to
our
issues
our
studies.
D
D
These
products
are
manufactured
and
expensive
and
require
separate
material
handling
systems
and
storage
systems
in
the
in
our
stockpiles,
which
we
just
don't
have,
would
be
a
significant
boost
costs
to
be
able
to
handle
these
materials
and
again
they
cannot
be
kept
from
year
to
year,
where
salt
brine
we
can
bag.
Calcium
chloride
is
right
now
our
preferred
method
of
dealing
with
lower
temperatures,
temperatures
below
16
degrees.
D
The
way
we
use
that
as
the
trucks
come
in
and
load
your
trucks.
We
add,
depending
on
the
temperature
one
to
two
bags
of
bag,
calcium
to
each
bucket
of
salt,
that
that
goes
into
the
truck.
This
has
proven
to
be
the
most
effective
application
for
us.
We
only
use
it.
When
we
get
in
extreme
temperatures,
we
can
store
the
bags
in
roofed
and
enclosed
buildings,
which
gives
it
a
long
shelf
life,
and
you
know
this
particular
winter
we
didn't
use
any.
D
So
often
winters
will
go
by
with
pallets
of
this
stuff,
laying
there
that
we
don't
use,
but
when
we
do
have
a
winter
storm,
that's
we.
We
have
done
liquid
magnesium
chloride.
We
have
used
in
the
past
the
issue
with
that
is
number
one.
The
cost
is
very
expensive
for
the
amount
of
times
we're
dealing
with
temperatures
that
low
it's
not
worth
again.
These
liquid
mag
would
require
some
sort
of
storage
infrastructure
which
we
just
do
not
have
shelf
life
is
questionable.
D
B
E
Good
afternoon
councilman,
thomas
and
members
of
the
streets
and
services
committee,
my
name
is
jaina
tidwell
and
I
am
the
manager
of
public
and
government
affairs
for
aaa
mid-atlantic
on
behalf
of
triple-a
mid-atlantic.
I
am
here
to
present
our
concerns
about
the
damaging
effects
of
salt
and
brine
on
vehicles
in
regions
in
the
u.s,
where
winter
weather
is
prevalent.
De-Icers
are
used
before,
during
and
after
storms
to
make
the
roadways
safe
for
travel.
E
E
E
However,
these
same
characteristics
can
be
even
more
damaging
to
vehicles,
since
the
chemicals
remain
in
liquid
form
longer
and
are
more
likely
to
coat
components
and
seep
into
cracks
and
crevices
where
corrosion
can
accelerate
beyond
cosmetic
issues.
Rust
damage
can
cause
serious
and
dangerous
damage
to
a
vehicle's
brakes,
fuel
tank
and
exhaust
systems.
E
In
total,
the
cost
to
repair
salt-related
rust
damage
is
estimated
at
15.4
billion
dollars
over
the
that
five-year
period
and
on
an
annual
basis.
Russ-Related
damage
is
estimated
to
cost
u.s
drivers
more
than
three
billion
dollars
among
those
who
had
whoops
and
that
those
are
again
numbers
from
a
recent
aaa
study
about
de-icers
and
salt
damage
to
vehicles
and
aaa
is
always
concerned,
as
are
those
who
have
previously
testified
today
about
the
road
safety
keeping
people
safe
on
the
roads
before
during
and
after
storms.
E
B
Thank
you
for
your
testimony
before
we
open
it
up
for
questions
from
members
of
this
committee.
I
just
want
to
know
for
the
record
that
council,
member
gilmore
richardson
is
present
and
has
joined
us
this
afternoon.
I
do
want
to
again
thank
everybody
for
their
testimony.
I
want
to
ask
my
colleagues
members
of
this
committee.
If
anyone
has
any
questions
for
this
particular
panel
I'll
start
myself.
B
If
anyone
has
any
questions,
please
just
indicate
in
a
chat
feature
that
you
would
like
to
be
recognized.
My
first
question
is
listening
to
a
lot
of
the
issues
that
come
from
dealing
with
the
salt,
not
just
the
pollution
as
it
relates
to
our
local
bodies
of
water,
but
also
thinking
about
infrastructure
issues.
I
am
clearly
the
chair
of
streets
of
services
and
outside
of
illegal
dumping,
one
of
the
things
that
people
reach
out
to
us
all
the
time
about
is
potholes.
B
So
can
you
just
take
a
minute
to
talk
to
us
about
the
impact
that
using
the
methods
that
we're
currently
using
has
on
the
number
of
potholes
that
we
see
in
the
city?
And
what
can
we
do
to
essentially
address
that
huge
concern,
because
constituents
reach
out
to
us
all
the
time
about
the
pothole
issue.
C
So,
council,
member
richard
montana's,
deputy
commissioner
of
streets
with
me,
is
also
steve.
Lorenz
who's,
the
chief
engineer,
potholes,
are
mainly
due.
Yes,
water
is
a
factor
of
potholes,
but
it
has
to
do
with
the
freeze
thaw
cycles
that
philadelphia
sees,
for
example,
this
past
sunday
was
70
degrees.
A
couple
days
later,
we
were
down
in
our
20s
so
that
free
stall
cycle
within
the
city
kind
of
moves
the
earth
in
a
way
creating
small
cracks
on
our
ass
on
our
asphalt.
C
But
then,
let's
water,
penetrate
when
water
freezes
it
kind
of
once
again
it
pops
up.
So,
although
the
the
brine
solutions
that
we
use
are
laid
on
top
of
the
asphalt
they
they
they
contribute
to
the
life
of
the
road,
but
not
to
the
pothole
amount
or
the
amount
of
potholes
it
has
to
do
with
the
free
stall
cycle
and
how
much
moisture
we
have
steve
john,
you
guys
want
to
add
anything
to
that.
F
F
This
year.
We
thanks
to
the
efforts
of
the
current
administration,
we're
aimed
we're
funded
to
pave
about
70
miles
of
roadway
across
the
city
in
calendar
year,
2023,
hopefully
another
70
miles
in
the
streets.
We
picked
were
some
of
the
worst
streets
that
we
have
within
the
city.
We
start
doing.
We
start
putting
a
good
paving
program
together
over
time.
The
number
of
potholes
will
reduce
you'll,
never
be
able
to
eliminate
potholes,
as
the
deputy
commissioner
also
have
said,
freeze
thaw
is
part
of
the
main
cause
of
the
potholes.
F
G
F
B
A
D
Yeah
john
kraschek,
with
penndot,
so
pretty
much
mimics
their
things.
First,
I
want
to
clear
up
some
there's
always
that
I
hear
this
a
lot
from
people
outside
penndot
that
you
know,
salt
brine
is
the
most
destructive
thing
we've
ever
used
for
our
roses
for
their
cars.
I
want
to
be
very
clear
on
it.
Salt
brine
that
we
apply
ahead
of
storm
is
no
different
than
the
brine
that
develops
when
you
place
rock
salt
on
snow.
It's
the
exact
same
thing.
D
D
If
we
were
way
north
and
stayed
pretty
much
below
freezing
all
winter,
we
wouldn't
see
the
issues
we
see
down
here,
but
we
get
periods
of
warm
weather
with
with
rain
and
that
the
water
gets
into
those
cracks,
quick
freeze
up
overnight
and
the
ice
expands
and
cracks
the
pavement
prevention.
Of
that.
The
best
thing
is
a
good
repaving
program,
along
with
a
good
crack
sealing
program.
If
all
our
cracks
were
completely
sealed,
there'd
be
no.
Where
for
the
water
to
penetrate
down
into
the
pavement
to
cause
those
potholes.
B
So
if
we
are
dealing
with
some
of
the
same
climate
issues
that
other
cities
as
far
as
geographical
location
are
dealing
with,
have
we
talked
to
other
cities
about
best
practices
and
what
they're
doing
to
address
this
issue,
because
I
heard
someone
say
in
their
testimony-
we're
always
going
to
have
a
pothole
issue,
and
I
can
see
that.
I
think
that
when
you
look
at
how
big
our
city
is
and
how
active
our
city
is
that
on
a
certain
level,
that
problem
is
going
to
exist.
B
But
it
just
seems
like
it's
worse
than
it's
ever
been
before,
especially
recently
and
with
us
being
in
a
pandemic.
One
would
just
think
that
some
of
those
issues
will
get
addressed
and
now
that
we're
coming
out
the
pandemic,
we're
seeing
hearing
and
witnessing
the
complaints
of
people
saying
that
it's
just
as
prevalent
as
it
was
before.
So,
if
it's
not
the
salt,
that's
creating
it
and
there's
other
issues
such
as
the
the.
I
guess
you
would
call
it
climate
change.
B
F
Well,
councilmember,
if
I
can
and
deputy
commissioner,
I
may
continue
to
answer
with
this
again
this
year
or
the
last
couple
of
years.
We'll
say
it
this
way.
We
sell
a
little
bit
more
freeze
law
than
in
previous
years,
a
lot
of
times
the
in
previous
years,
where
we
would
get
let's
say
the
month
of
january.
It
would
pretty
much
stay.
F
You
know
below
to
that
freezing
line,
or
in
the
month
of
february
or
if
we
would
get
the
snow,
it
would
stay
this
year
and
and
last
year
we
didn't
get
as
much
snow,
but
we
did
get
more
of
that
fluctuation
of
freeze
thought,
okay,
so
that
that
that's,
why
you're
seeing
more
of
it
over
the
last
couple
years
than
recently?
The
other
problem
that
we
had
is
our
paving
program
because
of
you
know,
funding
issues.
F
Well,
we're
going
to
be
increasing
our
mileage
to
70
each
year
and
then
we'll
see
what
happens
for
the
following
years,
that
we'll
be
dropping
back
down
to
35
miles
after
calendar
year,
2023.,
so
24
calorie
year,
2024
going
forward
right
now
we're
looking
at
about
30
to
35
miles.
The
other
challenge
that
we
face
in
increasing
our
mileage
is
the
current
ada
lawsuit
that
the
city
is
going
up
against
where
there
the
requirements
are.
As
we
pave
the
street,
we
need
to
upgrade
to
handicap
ramps.
F
Okay,
so
right
now
our
budget
looks
like
for
handicap
ramps
with
the
price
of
them.
70
percent
of
our
budget
goes
to
handicap
ramps.
30
goes
to
the
repaving
the
streets
and
when
comparing
philadelphia
to
other
cities
over
the
years,
we
have
talked
to
other
cities
again
they're
doing
they're
saying
the
same
thing.
The
best
way
to
do
it
is
a
good
paving
program.
We
do
similar
repairs
that
other
cities
do.
F
For
example,
we
have
our
pothole
patcher
that
we
lease
we're
able
to
fill
a
pothole
within
a
minute
and
we
go
around
the
city
with
that
and
then
just
manually
fill
in
potholes.
You
know
with
a
few
guys
on
the
crew
and
going
through
and
doing
the
repairs
now.
Also
the
other
problem
we
have
is
it's
an
older
city.
Not
every
defect
out
in
the
city
is
a
pothole
okay,
you
got
you
know:
plumbers,
ditches,
utility
trenches
and
there's
cavins
from
the
older
infrastructure.
F
C
I
just
want
would
have
a
couple
more
things:
council,
member,
richard
montanus
deputy
commissioner
streets,
we're
more
than
happy
to
meet
with
your
office
and
discuss.
As
commissioner
williams
has
pointed
out,
the
streets
department
needs
to
get
to
131
miles
of
pa
annual
paving
a
year
to
maintain
this
state
of
good
repair.
What.
C
B
B
If
we,
if
we
were
to
do-
and
you
know
again,
I'm
asking
for
myself
as
well
as
the
listener
audience
and
other
members
of
the
committee,
if
we
were
to
do
that
135
miles
a
year-
that
our
commissioner
is
recommending,
what
we
have
to
commit
to
the
initiatives
around
building
the
handicapped
spaces
and
having
access
to
that-
and
you
said
that
70
of
the
revenue
that
we
actually
spend
on
street
payment
goes
to
the
handicap
initiative.
So
it
wouldn't
just
be
135
miles.
B
C
Now
that's
fine,
like
I
said,
we're
more
than
happy
to
come
and
have
this
discussion
with
your
office.
If
you
want
to
see
a
couple
years
ago,
commissioner
williams
put
out
a
report
trying
to
see
we
could
get
to
the
131
miles
of
annual
paving.
That
would
also
put
us
into
the
recommended
paving
cycles
for
asphalt.
C
You
know,
with
v
or
rosa,
have
a
certain
adt
average
daily
traffic,
so
they
carry
truck
traffic
and
all
that,
for
example,
and
john
can.
Chime
in
the
state
roads
are
somewhere
in
a
five
to
seven
year
cycle.
Paving
the
city
tries
to
maintain
the
arterials
at
somewhere
between
seven
to
twelve,
and
then
you
will
put
your
what
we
call
our
residential
streets,
low
volume
streets
somewhere
between
a
20
to
30
year,
paving
program.
B
Thank
you.
Thank
you.
That's
that's
that's
helpful.
I
appreciate
it
just
two
more
questions.
So
when
we
look
at
where
we
are
as
far
as
some
of
the
critiques
that
we've
seen
as
a
city
looking
at
some
of
the
issues
around
the
ratio
of
materials
that
we
use
to
treat
roads
and
how
and
why
we
could
possibly
adjust
that,
are
there
any
thoughts
on
any
type
of
adjustment
on
the
type
of
materials
we
use
in
a
ratio
there.
F
Well,
deputy
commissioner,
if
I
can
start
off
these
again
council
member,
again
steve
lorenz
chief
highway
engineer
for
the
streets
department,
I
think
the
biggest
challenge
we
have
is
not
so
much.
The
ratios
of
chemical
versus
salt
that
we
use
is
just
educating
everybody
as
more
salt
is
not
better.
Okay,
we
do
use
brian.
Our
percentage
is
between
22
to
24
percent.
John
crackers
from
penn
dot
testify
is
23,
so
we're
all
in
that
same
amount.
We
do,
you
know,
try
to
increase
the
amount
brining.
We
do
yeah.
B
F
If
that
is
my,
that
is
our
opinion
on
that?
Yes,
that's
our
goal
is
to
less
salt
is
more
salt
is
not
always
the
better
again
it's
harmful
for
the
environment,
it's
also
not
healthy
for
the
water
department
and
how
they
treat
the
water.
That's
going
back
into
our
drinking
water,
so
you
know
one
of
the
again.
I've
been
doing
this
for
10
years,
overseeing
the
the
snow
operations
for
the
city
and
after
most
major
snow
events
or
icing
events.
F
I'll
talk
to
my
colleagues
over
in
our
water
department
ask
how
did
we?
How
did
we
do
with
the
spreading
of
the
salt?
Do
we
put
too
much
down?
Do
we
put
you
know
not
enough
or
or
whatnot?
How
is
it
affecting
their
operation
and
they'll
turn
they'll
come
back
to
me
in
you
know,
layman's
terms
and
say
no,
we
did
pretty
good
or
no.
F
We
have
to
cut
back
on
the
salt
users
a
little
bit
part
of
when
I
do
talk
to
them
to
the
water
department,
they'll
say
and
they
they've
got
meters
and
sensors
throughout
the
city
where
they
do
see.
An
influx
of
salt
coming
in
is
not
so
much
for
what
the
streets
department
or
the
city
is
putting
out
into
the
street.
F
It's
what's
coming
upstream
from
some
of
the
counties
when
they're
going
a
little
bit
heavier
with
the
salt
against
philadelphia,
you
know
with
the
delaware
river
and
the
schuylkill,
wherever
wissa
hicken
and
the
other
water
channels
were
we're
at
the
bottom.
So
you
know
everything
up
top.
You
know
feeds
into
you,
know
the
water
systems
and
comes
down
into
the
city.
B
Thank
you
I'll,
stop
right
there,
I'm!
I
don't
see
any
questions
from
any
of
my
colleagues.
I'm
teamed
up
in
a
chat
feature,
so
if
there
aren't
any
questions
from
any
of
the
members
of
this
committee,
I
want
to
say
thank
you
for
your
presence
here
today.
I
want
to
say
thank
you
to
your
service
to
the
city
of
philadelphia
and
all
the
great
work
you're
doing.
I
understand
that
this
is
a
very
complex
issue.
I'm
still
learning.
Oh
I'm
sorry,
chair,
recognizes
council,
member
bass.
C
There
has
been
a
slight
increase
on
federal
funds
but
they're
to
cover
what
we
call
the
fams.
The
federal
aid
maintenance
highway
system
within
the
city
of
philadelphia,
so
you'll
see
an
increase
on
that.
I
I'll
I
don't
want
to
speak
for
john,
but
penndot
has
also
increased
their
paving
that
they're
planning
to
do
this
year,
they're
going
up
to
45
miles
of
state
roads
within
the
city
of
philadelphia.
A
Will
you
be
reporting
back
to
the
chairman
when
you
have
a
better
idea
of
what
we
can
expect
from
the
federal
side
and
what
the
impact
would
be?
So
if
we
are
able
to
do
45
45
additional
miles
per
year
or
55
or
100,
you
know
whatever
it
is
that
we,
where
we
should
be,
will
you
be
reporting
back
to
the
chairman
with
that
information,
so
we
could
share
with
the
committee.
B
Thank
you.
I
I
you
know
I'll
add
to
that.
I
think
when
we
look
at
not
just
federal
dollars
coming
around
infrastructure,
but
also
the
state,
the
state
has
an
opportunity
to
use
some
of
the
surplus
dollars
that
they
got
from
the
federal
government
to
create
initiatives,
and
I
think
this
is
something
that
we
should
be
advocating
for.
So
as
we
prepare
for
budget
season,
I'm
definitely
going
to
be
looking
forward
to
our
conversation.
B
B
B
So
what
are
the
filters
or
what
other
items
can
we
put
in
place
if
this
is
the
method
that
we're
going
to
continue
to
use
to
put
us
in
a
position
to
make
sure
that
we're
being
as
environmental
friendly
as
possible?
So
I
do
want
to
say
thank
you
to
everybody
in
this
panel
for
your
testimony
today
and
also
I
look
forward
to
working
with
you,
so
we
can
continue
to
brainstorm
different
options
and
methods
that
we
can
use
to
make
sure
that
we're
being
as
environmentally
friendly
as
possible.
H
Good
afternoon
my
name
is
john
jackson.
I
am
a
research,
ecologist
stream,
ecologist
aquatic
entomologist
at
the
stroud
water
research
center.
I'm
a
senior
research
scientist
there
and
today
my
testimony
is
going
to
be
about
my
perspective
of
the
salt
issue
and
that
perspective
has
been
developed.
Over
the
last
say.
20
years,
I've
had
the
good
fortune
of
sampling
over
400
sites
in
the
br
in
the
delaware
river
basin
and
included
in
that
are
also
laboratory.
Bioassays.
H
Looking
at
salt
toxicity,
I've
also
had
the
good
fortune
at
some
of
my
sites
to
have
observed
the
increase
in
salt
as
part
of
our
environment.
So,
whereas
I
recognize
there's
drinking
water
issues,
there's
infrastructure
issues-
those
are
not
my
strengths.
My
strength
is
really
in
the
environmental
area.
H
The
second
thing
as
we
get
started,
it's
important
that,
while
the
conversation
is
about
philadelphia,
as
was
noted
earlier,
the
water
issue
in
the
streams
and
rivers
of
philadelphia
are
a
regional
problem.
The
issue
of
increased
salt
in
our
waterways
is
not
just
a
southeast
pennsylvania
region
problem.
It
really
extends
from
north
dakota
all
the
way
down
to
virginia,
and
it's
really
tied
to
the
use
of
road
salt
that
primarily,
and
especially
in
this
area.
H
H
So
it's
not
a
problem,
though
that
is
well
regulated,
because
when
the
clean
water
was
act
was
passed,
the
increases
were
already
apparent
in
the
data
we
had,
but
we
really
weren't
aware
of
it.
We
weren't
analyzing
for
it,
but
at
this
point
it's
continued
to
increase
so
we're
50
years
past,
passing
the
clean
water
act
and
we're
looking
at
salt
concentrations.
H
Now
that
are
toxic
at
some
times
and
at
some
locations,
that's
true,
both
in
the
winter
when
we
see
our
highest
concentrations,
but
also
in
the
summer,
and
we
see
summer,
salt
concentrations
still
being
elevated,
because
every
year
we're
continuing
to
contaminate
the
groundwater,
because
every
winter
will
infiltrate
some
of
that
storm
water.
Some
of
that
that
snow
melt
that's
contaminated
with
road
salt
into
the
groundwater,
and
then
that
comes
out
as
stream
water
during
the
summer.
H
As
has
also
been
noted,
there's
lots
of
people
that
are
responsible.
You
had
two
of
the
parties
that
are
commonly
included
when,
when
say
in,
in
wisconsin
or
or
minnesota,
they've
looked
at
budgets
for
salt
for
a
whole
watershed.
That's
the
state
municipalities,
but
private
applicators
are
big
players
in
this
conversation,
and
you
are.
I
would
encourage
you.
This
is
a
challenge
for
us,
but
I
would
encourage
you
to
look
at
that
as
also
as
a
source
in
a
budget.
H
They
might
be
20
to
40
percent
of
the
total
salt
going
into
the
waterway.
The
proportions
vary
depending
on
the
relative
distribution
of
roads,
who's
responsible
state,
municipal,
private
roads,
parking
lots
there.
From
my
perspective,
there's
no
easy
solution.
It's
a
regional
problem.
Municipalities
are
going
to
have
to
work
together.
H
H
The
the
other
thing
is
is
there's
really
no
easy
solutions.
We
have
to
reduce
the
salt.
If
we
don't
we're
just
going
to
see
it
increasing,
it
will
continue
to
increase,
just
as
it
has
for
the
last
50
to
70
years,
and
that
means
the
environmental
costs.
The
infrastructure
crop
costs,
private
property
damage.
Drinking
water
challenges
are
all
also
going
to
increase.
H
H
I
would
encourage
you
to
look
for
them
out
of
new
york
out
of
maryland,
where
significant
reductions
in
salt
applications
have
occurred,
but
the
the
perspective,
of
course,
it's
challenging
to
interpret
their
child
their
their
results
is:
where
did
they
start
so
we're
all
part
of
the
problem
and
we're
all
part
of
the
solution?
The
the
use
of
salt
is
something
we
asked
for.
Those
of
us
who
were
around
in
the
80s
and
90s
know
what
those
storms
did
and
what
people
asked
for,
and
and
but
we
never
had
a
balanced
discussion.
H
B
I
Okay,
I'm
a
professor
at
temple
university
and
I
specialize
in
urban
hydrology,
and
I
want
to
thank
council
person
thomas
for
initiating
this
hearing
on
the
application
of
road
salts
in
our
city
streets.
So,
as
I
said,
my
research
area
is
an
urban
hydrology
and
it
involves
sampling
our
local
streams.
So
my
field
areas
are
the
wizard
hicken,
the
penny
pack,
the
toucany,
to
some
extent
the
cobs.
I
Some
of
these
streams.
I've
been
sampling
for
more
than
15
years,
and
I've
watched
the
salt
concentration
steadily
rise.
John
talked
about
the
1940s
to
now
time
frame,
but
I'm
seeing
it
creep
up
over
just
the
most
recent
years.
So
we're
we're
continuing
to
add
to
the
problem.
Whatever
we're
doing
to
mitigate
isn't
quite
working,
yet
it's
a
slow
creep,
so
you
might
not
notice
if
you
just
compare
one
year
to
another
because
there's
a
lot
of
variability.
We
know
it's
those
different
amounts
different
years.
I
But
if
you
look
over
the
long
term,
the
trend
just
is
inexorably
upward.
I
get
my
data
from
a
couple
of
different
sources.
We
do
quarterly
sampling
with
our
watershed
organizations
who've
been
funded
by
the
william
penn
foundation
for
the
past
eight
years.
I
also
reviewed
data
from
the
u.s
geological
survey
in
the
philadelphia
water
department
stream
gages,
where
they
measure
stream
conductivity
continuously
stream.
Conductivity
is
directly
related
to
road
salt
and
it
provides
some
really
good
long-term
data
sets.
I
I
Now
this
is
an
annual
average,
so
that
means
in
the
winter
the
concentrations
can
rise
even
larger.
As
john
mentioned,
we
get
peaks
over
a
thousand
milligrams
per
liter
sometimes,
and
we,
the
natural
concentrations
within
an
area
with
no
human
influence,
should
be
more
like
10
or
20
milligrams
per
liter
and
road
salts.
The
obvious
culprit:
let's
look
someplace
where
they
don't
use
road
salt.
Very
much
ford,
indian
town
gap
in
central
pennsylvania
is
a
military
base.
They
drive
around
on
humvees.
They
don't
need
to
solve
their
roads.
You
know
on
the
base
itself
there.
I
I
I
I
monitor
storm
water
basins
in
the
region
for
that
william
penn
foundation
grant
and
we
put
sensors
in
some
storm
water
basins
and
found
that
the
salt
was
there
in
the
winter
of
192
19
last
winter
2021
it
didn't
flush
out
until
around
june,
so
the
soil
in
that
basin
was
very
permeable.
It's
not
your
typical
urban
soil
that
drains
slowly
and
even
that
wouldn't
flush
out
these
pockets
lead
to
very
large
supply
of
salt
in
our
streams
all
year.
I
I
Another
problem
is
that
salt
mobilizes
trace
metals,
which
can
also
impair
aquatic
life.
In
addition,
philadelphia's
green
streets
program
is
endangered
by
salt.
Runoff
stormwater
basins
work
better
when
they
have
plants
to
increase
infiltration,
but
the
salt
in
the
storm
water
kills
many
of
the
plants
used
in
these
basins.
I
So
this
is
a
widespread
problem
in
our
area
around
the
nation
and
around
the
world,
and
it's
not
going
to
go
away
on
its
own.
It's
just,
as
I
said,
inexorably
creeping
upward
and
it
isn't
easy
to
predict
where,
where
you're
going
to
see
the
problem,
so
we
need
to
develop
a
more
widespread
solution.
I
think
cities
can
be
the
the
people
that
look
for
those
solutions
and
then
teach
the
businesses
and
the
public
what
they
can
do
better.
So
we
can
be
a
real
role
model
if
we
can
figure
this
out.
I
B
Thank
you
for
your
testimony.
I
appreciate
it.
I
don't
see
any
questions
for
members
of
the
committee
in
a
chat
feature
I'll,
just
ask
one,
and
this
is
for
both
members
of
the
panel
based
on
your
perspective
and
your
expert
experience
as
well
as
the
testimony
that
we
heard
prior
to
you
clearly
there's
conflicting
interest.
What
would
you
recommend
to
the
city
of
philadelphia
as
it
relates
to
how
we
should
move
forward?
B
Clearly,
they
feel
like
the
chemical
balance
that
they're
using
right
now,
the
ratio
of
salt
and
how
they're
doing
things
is
the
best
and
most
environmentally
safe
way
to
do
it,
but,
on
the
contrary,
we're
hearing
you,
as
experts,
testify
that
what
we're
doing
is
not
necessarily
best.
So
if
you
were
completely
in
charge
of
the
work
that's
being
done
in
the
city
of
philadelphia
as
it
relates
to
this
particular
issue,
how
would
you
recommend
that
we
best
deal
with
these
storms
and
prepare
for
these
storms.
I
I'll
take
a
first
cut
at
it,
but
I
certainly
want
to
hear
from
john
two.
I
don't-
and
I
think
john
already
said
that
this
is
a
really
tough
problem
to
solve.
I
think
communication
is
one
thing
that
if
philadelphia
thinks
they're
doing
the
right
thing
start
educating
some
of
the
businesses
and
and
maybe
the
suburbs.
I
see
differences
in
how
much
salt
are
in
different
streams
in
the
suburbs,
so
some
of
the
suburbs
are
applying
more
salt
than
others.
I
So
communication
is
something
that
that
might
you
know
more
widespread
communication
about
proper
ways
to
do
things
keep
your
eye.
I
know
I
know,
there's
computers
that
help
you
control,
how
much
brine
you
put
down,
keeping
your
eye
out
on
new
innovations
like
that,
maybe
even
looking
at
vegetation
that
might
help
take
up
salt
so
that
on
the
edges
of
roads,
you've
got
a
barrier
between
the
road
and
when
it
gets
into
the
soil
and
the
others.
I
Some
plants,
don't
like
salt,
but
there's
some
that
really
like
it
might
pick
it
up.
I
would
just
keep
your
eye
on
the
ball
for
those
new
solutions
they're
coming
down
and
as
soon
as
you
find
them,
let
all
of
the
other
communities
and
the
businesses,
especially
the
businesses,
know
that
there's
a
better
way
to
do
things.
H
The
the
best
example
that
I've
seen
so,
I
think
the
state
and
the
municipal
people
are
best
educated,
probably
state
first
state
and
federal
types
of
things.
They
have
the
best
training
and
the
best
equipment,
and
it's
a
trickle
down.
There
are
some
examples
and
in
my
written
testimony
I
I
included
some
links.
I
I
like
what
maryland
is
doing.
H
H
They
swear
by
live
edge,
blade,
snow,
blades
or
or
a
snow
blade
that
adjusts
to
a
variable
or
irregular
road
surface
and
if
you
think
about
philadelphia
streets,
that's
the
issue
that
that
we
have
older
streets
are
not
real
flat
and
the
livage
is
is
helpful
there,
but
I
think
we
can
learn
from
others
they're
ahead
of
us
right
now.
What
I
haven't
found
out
is
how
to
how
to
recommend
who
to
recommend
for
that
training.
I
just
haven't
found
the
links
they
seem
to
be
doing
it
in
house
training
themselves.
B
Thank
you,
a
very,
very
good
insight,
very
good
information
and,
as
we
continue
to
explore
this
issue,
we
are
hoping
that
we
could
have
both
of
you
as
a
resource
to
help
us
think
through
this
complex
problem
that
we're
facing
right
now.
So
thank
you.
Thank
you.
So
much
for
your
perspective.
Thank
you
for
taking
time.
B
Are
there
any
other
questions
for
members
of
this
committee
for
this
particular
panel
seeing
and
hearing
none,
I
want
to
again
say
thank
you
so
much
for
being
here
with
us
today
and
for
providing
your
expert
opinion
is
greatly
appreciated.
I'm
adam
clerk.
Would
you
please
call
the
next
panel
of
witnesses
to
testify
on
this
bill.
J
J
I
volunteer
as
a
master
watershed
steward
with
the
penn
state
extension
as
a
stream
keeper,
with
the
took
an
itacone
frankfurt
watershed
partnership
as
a
weekly
volunteer
working
to
improve
rock
creek
and
curtis
arboretum,
just
outside
of
philadelphia
and
finally,
as
a
volunteer
chloride
monitor
with
the
isaac
walton
league's
winter
salt
watch
program,
which
recently
named
my
partner
and
myself
salt
monitors
of
the
month.
My
testimony
is
based
on
my
roles
as
a
watershed.
J
Steward,
a
stream
keeper
and
a
salt
watch
monitor
each
month,
my
partner
chris
peterson,
and
I
test
the
waters
in
rock
creek
for
level
for
salt
levels.
We
have
done
this
for
several
years.
Initially,
we
tested
the
levels
just
in
the
winter,
but
when
they
didn't
go
down
last
year,
we
continued
to
test
monthly
right
through
the
seasons
only
to
discover
that
the
chloride
levels
in
rock
creek
were
still
and
are
still
shockingly
high,
both
in
winter
and
summer.
J
At
times
our
streams
are
as
salty
as
the
ocean
in
in
the
winter
salt
levels
in
creeks,
we
monitor
are
50
to
100
times
higher
than
normal.
As
dr
jackson
said
in
the
summer,
they're
10
to
30
times
higher
than
a
normal,
healthy
stream
in
the
watershed
through
which
rock
creek
flows,
municipalities
are
spreading
about
220
000
pounds
of
salt
annually,
whether
in
the
form
of
rock
salt
or
brine.
J
J
J
We've
talked
a
little
about
where
the
salt
is
coming
from,
but
I
want
to
review
because
there's
a
few
things
I
wish
to
add.
Obviously
there
are
the
major
highways
and
the
major
roadways
that
are
salted
or
brined
by
penndot.
I
won't
say
more
about
that.
It's
been
covered,
the
city
and
suburban
streets
are
sold
by
our
streets
department
or
by
the
various
townships
and
street
departments
in
the
counties.
J
Often
there
is
very
sloppy
application
in
my
written
testimony,
which
I
will
be
submitting
are
photographs
of
huge
salt
spills
in
philadelphia,
one
taken
right
on
the
ben
franklin
parkway
and
in
my
own
neighborhood
of
mount
airy.
So
please
do
look
at
the
testimony.
The
written
testimony
and
you'll
see
those
actual
photographs,
there's
also
a
problem
of
over
application.
J
Salt
is
often
over
applied
on
the
mistaken
assumption
that
a
road
with
a
thick
crunchy
application
of
salt
will
somehow
be
safer
than
a
street
with
less
salt.
There
are
standards
from
the
wisconsin
department
of
natural
resources
for
correct
amounts
of
salt
and,
more
importantly,
there
are
actual
trainings
for
salt
applicators.
J
So
I
am
including
the
link
for
that
in
my
testimony
in
the
in
the
written
testimony,
because
that
might
be
something
that
our
penndot
and
our
streets
department
could
look
into
those
online
trainings.
A
third
problem,
as
dr
jackson
mentioned,
are
parking
lots
of
retail
establishments,
especially
those
big
box,
store
complexes
and
shopping
centers.
J
A
small
amount
of
salt
can
go
a
long
way
and
crunchy
parking
lots
are
not
safer.
I
recently
washed
a
salt
truck
in
one
of
the
suburban
parking
lots
as
it
came
to
each
lane's
end.
It
stopped
because
there
were
cars
going
by,
but
the
application
machine
kept
going
so
at
the
end
of
each
lane
were
enormous
piles
of
salt
as
it
went
up
and
down
each
supermarket
lane.
J
Then
there
are
the
homeowners.
Homeowners
often
apply
salt
on
snow
instead
of
shoveling,
and
they
overlap
salt
on
sidewalks,
the
average
philadelphia
homeowner
can
make
their
icy
sidewalk
safe
with
two
just
one
or
coffee
mug
full
of
salt,
rather
than
quartz
and
quarts
of
it.
Moreover,
a
few
homeowners
clean
up
extra
salt
debris
after
the
storms
there
needs
to
be
a
widespread
education
program.
J
I
would
be
remiss
if
I
didn't
mention
the
burgeoning
perception
among
many
philadelphians
and
suburbanites
that
heavy
snow,
our
roads
ought
to
be
almost
instantly
passable
with
our
vehicles
going
at
normal
speeds.
If
our
streets
aren't
instantly
plowed
and
heavily
salted,
many
citizens
grumble
that
the
streets
department
is
incompetent
and
our
tax
dollars
are
being
wasted.
A
city-wide
education
program
is
needed
to
help
our
citizens
understand
the
impact
of
that
perception
and
how
the
increasing
pressure
on
city
and
is
harming
our
streams,
our
wildlife,
our
health
and
our
infrastructure.
J
B
K
Hello,
I'm
dr
jerry
klein.
I
live
in
chicago
illinois,
I'm
a
veterinarian,
I'm
here
also
the
chief
veterinary
officer
for
the
american
kennel
club,
but
prior
to
that
I
was
an
emergency
veterinarian
for
35
years,
culminating
in
department
head
of
the
emergency
department,
so
35
years
of
chicago
means
35
years
of
chicago
winters,
so
many
emergencies
are
specialty
and
emergency
center
saw
about
eleven
thousand
patients
per
year.
K
Why
and
all
the
ashes
are
comprised
of
salt,
so
sodium
chloride,
potassium
chloride,
magnesium
chloride
and
calcium
chloride,
often
or
calcium
carbonate
and
they're
all
can
be
dangerous
if
they're
ingested,
but
the
majority
of
dogs
don't
ingest
these
in
any
large
amounts.
They
usually
do
it,
incidentally,
because
they
lick
their
paws
after
being
walked
in
these
sidewalks
often
times
and
urban
dogs
are
usually
walked
in
either
on
sidewalks
or
alleys
and
of
course
they
may
have
to
cross
the
street
as
well.
K
K
They
have
it's.
Every
dog
is
individualized
more
so
than
people
because
of
the
great
range
in
size
from
a
chihuahua
to
a
great
dane,
so
the
amount
ingested
is
dependent
by
the
dog
size.
So
if
a
sheetsu
or
chihuahua
is
walked
in
just
a
certain
amount
off
their
paws,
they
may
vomit
or
have
vomiting
and
diarrhea
oftentimes
resolving
on
its
own,
but
sometimes
requiring
medical
help
to
rectify
the
gastrointestinal
upset.
K
K
I
think
all
of
them
labradors
because
they
seem
to
salt-
is
not
palatable
to
most
dogs,
but
some
dogs
do
so,
I
think
in
the
city
it's
very
dependent
upon
you,
you
go,
you
may
do
certain
things
for
your
own
home,
but
your
next
door,
neighbor
or
three
doors
down,
may
do
something
very
differently.
So
an
individual
dog
is
subject
to
different
types
of
the
ice
or
material
in
any
one
walk
and
how
it
affects
the
dog
can
be
very
individualized.
K
B
L
Hi
everybody,
my
name
is
stephanie
wein
and
I'm
the
clean
water
and
conservation
advocate
for
penn
environment
and
in
my
capacity
at
penn
environment.
I
work
on
our
programs
to
ensure
that
pennsylvanians
have
access
to
clean
water
from
stream
to
tap,
and
so
thank
you
for
inviting
our
testimony
so
pen,
environment
and
the
members
we
represent
throughout
the
city
of
philadelphia
have
a
vested
interest
in
healthy
streams
in
our
city,
and
we
simply
can't
have
healthy
streams
at
the
level
of
salt
we
already
use.
L
L
The
results
for
our
city's
aquatic
wildlife
are
disastrous
and
even
when
salt
concentrations
aren't
immediately
lethal,
the
increased
salinity
we're
seeing
has
long-term
impacts
on
aquatic
life.
So
for
amphibians,
it
disrupts
the
development
of
their
eggs
into
tadpoles,
and
it
depresses
their
immune
response
to
pathogens,
leaving
populations
of
our
frogs
and
salamanders
more
vulnerable
to
the
numerous
novel
diseases
that
are
already
threatening.
L
Amphibian
populations
and
even
brief,
pulses
of
highly
elevated
salt
levels
can
have
irreversible
impacts
on
the
growth
and
development
of
eggs
and
tadpoles,
and
similar
impacts
have
also
been
observed
in
the
growth
and
development
of
fish.
Eggs
and
of
larvae
and
salt
also
decreases
the
number
of
insects
in
our
streams
which
compromises
the
base
of
the
food
webs
in
our
urban
forests
like
the
whishkin
feeding
the
animals,
we
love
to
see
like
songbirds,
and
so
as
the
experts
before
me
have
shared.
L
The
salt
also
lingers
not
just
right
after
the
winter
storm
events,
but
it
lingers
in
the
ground
and
it
releases
into
the
streams
in
the
spring
and
summer
months,
and
that
provides
an
unhealthy
high
salt
condition
year
round,
which
is
an
ongoing
stressor
for
our
aquatic
wildlife,
who
don't
get
a
break
from
that
high
salt
environment
and
the
impacts,
though,
for
the
wildlife
go
beyond
the
streams
themselves.
When
salt
washes
off
roads
and
dish,
it
into
ditches.
Excuse
me
into
front
yards
into
gardens
into
parks.
L
They
can
experience
higher
mortality
when
they
can
tune,
consume
too
much
salt
from
eating
higher
salt
milkweed
and
then
what
we
do
on
our
city
streets
obviously
does
ultimately
end
up
in
the
delaware
river,
which
we
in
other
municipalities
rely
on
for
drinking
water.
As
has
been
said
there
we
see
the
oversalting
impact
on
human
health,
and
so
over
the
last
three
decades.
Increased
road
salt
in
american
rivers
has
impacted
drinking
water.
L
The
usgs
has
found
an
increasing
number
of
public
drinking
water
with
salt
concentrations
above
the
epa
safe
threshold,
which
of
course
poses
a
health
risk
to
people
with
heart
conditions
or
blood
pressure
that
are
trying
to
control
their
salt
intake.
But
beyond
that,
the
increased
chloride
from
the
road
salt
also
increases
corrosion
in
our
pipes
and
as
a
city
with
as
many
lead
pipes
as
philadelphia
has,
this
can
lead
to
increased,
lead
leaching
into
the
drinking
water.
L
We
need
to
be
doing
all
that
we
can
to
limit
the
risk
of
lead
leaching
into
philadelphia's
pipes,
and
that
includes
protecting
our
source
water,
which
includes
addressing
road,
salt
and
philadelphia.
We
are
uniquely
blessed
amongst
major
cities
with
our
urban
green
space
and
with
our
beloved
streams
like
the
wizahikin
and
the
kissing
and
the
toucany,
but
to
keep
our
natural
spaces
and
ourselves
healthy.
I'm
I'm
just
encouraging
a
rethinking
of
our
approach
to
road
salt
and,
as
noted
by
by
other
experts,
there
are
a
lot
of
solutions.
L
First,
what
what?
When
we
we
care
about
safety,
which
we
get
by
increasing
traction
and
there's
ways
to
do
that
without
de-icing.
So
earlier
in
frequent
ploughing
and
the
use
of
the
best
blade
technology
can
decrease
the
use,
the
need
for
salt
and
sand
and
other
mineral
spreads
can
create
traction
and
reduce
slipping
on
our
roads
in
sidewalks
and
parking
lots.
L
But
I
think
the
most
important
takeaway
from
from
us
as
an
environmental
group
is
just
the
need
for
less
salt.
As
many
have
said,
more
is
not
better
northeastern
cities
are
developing
assault,
application
to
maximize
efficiency,
and
we
should
look
to
their
leadership,
and
this,
of
course
includes
as
but
has
been
said,
brine
application
that
and
that
can
include
additives
that
increase
efficacy.
L
While
beet
juice
has
been
shown
to
reduce
the
amount
of
necessary
salt
and
increase
the
efficacy
at
those
lowest
of
temperatures.
These
solutions
are
still
highly
saline
and
a
lot
of
additional
additives
like
calcium
chloride.
They
aren't
without
their
own
environmental
impact,
and
so
when
we
decide
to
use
brine,
we
still
need
to
be
mindful
of
overuse,
and
we
shouldn't
think
of
that
as
something
that
is
is
somehow
different
from
salt
for
beet
juice,
the
pulse
of
organic
material
and
of
nutrients
into
our
waterways.
L
That
comes
from
beet
runoff
can
cause
algal
blooms
that
reduces
oxygen
available
in
our
waterways
and
then
can
make
our
streams
inhospitable
for
fish
and
insects,
and
then
magnesium
and
calcium
chlorides
might
reduce
the
impact
of
how
much
sodium
is
ending
up
in
the
water.
But
these
these
salts
still
contain
chlorides.
B
Thank
you
and
thank
you
for
all
the
work
you
do.
I
think
that
a
couple
things
really
stuck
with
me.
I
think
you
gave
us
some
phenomenal
information
and
facts.
I
think
my
heart
kind
of
went
out
to
the
pets
just
thinking
about
all
the
different
animals
across
the
city.
Philly
is
like
one
of
those
cities
that
has
unique
dna
and
I
think,
we're
a
pet
city.
B
People
really
love
their
pets
in
philadelphia
and
to
know
that
this
is
something
that
continues
to
damage
animals
and
pests
in
the
city
outside
of
those
who
are
in
the
water.
It's
something
that's
alarming,
but
then
also
just
I'm
considering
and
thinking
about
what
we're
doing
as
a
city
and
the
impact
that
the
decisions
that
businesses
make
and
how
they
decide
to
preserve
land
and
spaces
in
their
area
when
a
storm
hits
is
a
significant
problem
as
well.
B
I
would
love
to
move
into
a
space
in
a
place
where
we're
relying
on
more
street
pavement
when
these
storms
hit,
but
we
know
far
too
often
that
the
city
is
not
capable
of
paving
all
the
streets
across
the
city
and
far
too
often
poor
communities
and
communities
of
color
are
the
ones
who
get
left
out
in
they
end
up
stuck
on
their
block
and
dealing
with
ice
and
snow
for
days
at
a
time
after
a
really
bad
storm.
So
I
think
that
we
have
a
lot
of
work
to
do.
B
This
panel
was
really
good.
You
guys
gave
us
some
great
information
and
a
lot
of
things
that
we
really
have
to
think
about
and
contemplate,
as
we
figure
out
what
direction
we
go
in
as
a
city
as
well
as
how
we
provide
information
to
not
just
our
businesses,
but
also
our
private
partners.
So
thank
you.
Thank
you
to
this
panel.
Does
any
member?
Are
there
any
members
of
council
who
have
any
questions
for
this
particular
panel?
B
M
The
league
has
a
long-standing
history
of
advocating
for
clean
water,
most
notably
with
our
save
our
streams
program
created
over
50
years
ago.
Over
the
past
half
century,
save
our
streams
has
evolved
to
meet
the
challenges
of
modern
water
quality
problems
such
as
road
salt
pollution
in
2018.
After
a
large
salt
spill
outside
of
league
headquarters
in
maryland,
left
muddy
branch
stream
with
toxic
levels
of
salt,
runoff
league
staff
launched
saltwatch
a
crowdsource
monitoring
program
that
equips
volunteers
with
free
test
strips
to
sample
the
waterways
in
their
community
for
road,
salt
or
chloride
pollution.
M
The
saltwatch
data
from
each
collection
site
is
loaded
into
a
national
database
which
is
available
to
researchers,
the
public
and
policy
makers.
The
isaac
walton
league
hopes
that
robust
data
collection
over
successive
years
will
help
establish
a
reliable
baseline,
reliable
baseline
information
and
pinpoint
pollution
problems,
so
local
authorities
can
address
road
salt
problems
and
adopt
better
practices.
M
M
There
were
more
than
three
times
as
many
results
in
the
2020-2021
winter
season
as
the
previous
year
around
philadelphia
with
more
volunteers
than
ever,
keeping
an
eye
on
road
salt
pollution.
There
is
more
data
to
confirm
that
salt
is
significant,
a
significant
water
pollution
issue
that
can
harm
aquatic
life
and
drinking
water
for
years
after
the
salt
hits
the
road.
M
Ideally
freshwater,
lakes
and
streams
should
have
low
to
no
salt
content
levels
above
100
parts
per
million
exceed
naturally
occurring
concentrations
of
salt.
According
to
the
epa
concentrations
above
230
parts
per
million
are
toxic
to
aquatic
life
with
prolonged
exposure.
Excess
salt
and
drinking
water
can
be
a
problem
for
people
with
high
blood
pressure
and
other
health
conditions
that
require
a
low
sodium
diet,
since
water
filtration
plants
are
not
equipped
to
filter
out
excess
salts.
M
While
road
salt
can
improve
driving
safety
during
icy
conditions,
the
salt
eventually
washes
into
watersheds
where
it
damages
the
quality
of
drinking
water
and
harms
aquatic
life
in
freshwater
streams
and
lakes.
More
than
100
million
americans
depend
on
local
streams
for
drinking
water,
but
the
water
treatment
plants
are
not
equipped
to
filter
out
excess
salt.
M
The
isaac
wantly
created
winter
salt
watch
to
give
volunteers
the
tools
to
identify
excess
road,
salt
and
streams
and
other
waterways.
The
program
aims
to
ensure
transportation
safety
while
protecting
clean
water
through
best
practices,
including
number
one
tailoring
salt
application
strategies
to
the
weather
and
the
product
being
used.
For
example,
certain
road
salts,
such
as
sodium
chloride,
are
only
effective
at
ambient
temperatures
over
20
degrees
at
lower
temperatures.
M
This
product
does
not
protect
drivers
and
only
exacerbates
water
pollution
when
the
weather
gets
warmer
number
two
calibrating
salt
spreaders
on
salt
trucks
and
using
road
temperature,
sensors
calibrated
salt,
spreaders
and
brining
allow
for
better
understanding
of
how
salt
is
being
applied.
Greater
use
of
temperature
sensors
can
dramatically
reduce
excess
applications
before
predicted
storms.
M
Number
three
training
and
certification
for
snowplow
drivers
and
contractors
who
maintain
walkways
parking,
lots
and
service
roads
on
private
property
testing
by
saltwatch
volunteers
and
the
experience
of
state
and
local
governments
demonstrate
that
excessive
salt
application
is
common
among
private
contractors,
but
simple
training
can
quickly
improve
their
practices
and
number
four
educating
the
public
about
how
road
salt
works
and
what
is
an
appropriate
amount
to
apply
on
their
own
property.
For
example,
one
12
ounce
mug
is
enough:
rock
salt
for
a
20
foot,
driveway
or
10
sidewalk
squares
threats
from
road
salt
do
not
end.
M
In
the
spring.
Warm
weather,
coupled
with
with
reduced
stream
flow
during
the
summer
months,
means
chloride.
Levels
will
be
even
more
concentrated,
putting
stress
on
wildlife
and
drinking
water
treatment
plants.
It
is
vital
to
decrease
road
solved
application
in
the
winter
months
to
conserve
resources,
protect
wildlife
and
maintain
safe
drinking
water
for
generations
to
come
all
while
still
maintaining
public
safety.
Thank
you
for
your
time.
B
G
Okay,
my
name
is
denver
preston,
I'm
with
the
k-tech
specialty
coatings
in
ashley
indiana
and
we're
in
the
de-icer
business.
We
manufacture
a
de-icer
called
be
heat.
I
want
to
start
out
by
thanking
council
member
thomas
and
the
other
council
members
for
calling
this
hearing
to
consider
alternative
de-icing
materials,
and
I
also
want
to
thank
you
for
giving
me
an
opportunity
to
share
my
testimony.
G
I've
been
in
this
field
for
12
years.
I've
seen
many
agencies
achieve
amazing
reductions
in
chloride
emissions
and
for
some,
the
reduction
was
achieved
very
very
easily,
so
I've
been
told
that
you
have
the
handout
that
I
provided,
mr
thomas,
okay,
so
the
title
here
is
the
boost
and
reduce
method.
So
I'm
gonna
tell
you
right
here
and
now.
The
information
that
I'm
gonna
go
over
today
is
super
super
easy
to
understand.
Okay,
a
very,
very
easy
to
understand,
and
it
starts
out
with
page
one.
G
G
We
hired
an
independent
laboratory
to
do
these
ice
melt
capacity
tests
for
us
as
we
were
developing
our
product
and
so
over
on
the
left
hand
side
here,
I
want
to
show
you
this
is
on
how
much
ice
untreated
rock
salt
melted
in
a
60
minute
time
period
at
25
degrees,
fahrenheit,
okay,
so
untreated
rock
salt
to
the
right
of
it.
We
have
brine
treated
rock
salt.
Okay.
G
Now
you
can
see
right
there
that
the
additional
ice
melt
capacity
was
less
than
one
percent
more
than
the
untreated
rock
salt,
and
the
primary
reason
for
this
is
brine
on
rock
salt
is
nothing
more
than
sodium
chloride
on
sodium
chloride.
Okay,
if
you
take,
you
know
grape
juice
and
you
mix
it
with
grape
juice.
You
have
grape
juice
just
a
little
bit
more
of
it.
So
by
wetting
your
rock
salt
with
brine.
This
is
the
performance
benefit
that
you
get
out
of
this
in
the
middle.
G
Here
we
have
32
percent
calcium
chloride,
and
you
can
see
that
by
putting
it
on
your
rock
salt
at
7
gallons
a
ton,
the
performance
of
that
rock
salt
goes
up
almost
20
percent.
Now,
then
we
have
beet
juice.
This
is
a
product
called
geo
melt
55
and
if
you
put
it
on
your
rock
salt
at
five
gallons,
a
ton
look
how
much
better.
G
G
We
call
this
blend,
be
heat
severe
and
it's
a
50
50
blend
of
our
beet
heat
concentrate
and
your
sodium
chloride
brine.
If
you
mix
these
two
de-icers
together
and
apply
them
to
your
rock
salt
at
10
gallons
per
ton,
look
at
the
performance
boost
here:
okay,
64,
more
ice
melted
in
this
60
minutes,
then
brine
treated
rock
salt.
Now,
why
do
we
talk
about
performance
here?
It
goes
back
to
my
original
statement.
The
better
your
rock
salt
works,
the
less
of
it.
You
need
to
maintain
exactly
the
same
service
levels.
G
So
if
you
turn
with
me
to
page
3
again
talking
about
this
boost
and
reduce
method,
here
is
simple,
mathematical
logic.
If
salt
b
melts
64
percent
more
ice
than
salt,
a
then
salt
b
can
melt
the
same
amount
of
ice
as
salt,
a
with
39,
less
rock
salt
or
in
our
discussion
today,
39
less
chloride,
emissions
into
your
environment.
Okay,
are
you
with
me.
B
Is
through
since
I
already
interrupted
you
once
for
those
who
are
listening
to
the
hearing,
mr
preston
submitted
a
documented
testimony,
and
so,
as
he's
going
through
the
pages
he's
going
through
a
document
that
he's
already
submitted
to
members
of
the
streets
committee
that
basically
outlines
his
testimony,
so
I
just
wanted
to
put
that
out
there
for
those
in
the
list
of
noise.
That
made
me
listen
go
ahead.
Mr
president,
I'm
sorry
thank.
G
You
thank
you
so
on
page
four
here
we
just
have
a
visual
and
the
little
pile
of
salt.
There,
that's
colored
that
would
represent
the
the
organic
treated
rock
salt
and
that
pile
is
39
percent
less
than
the
brine
treated
rock
salt.
That
is
right
there,
so
39
less
chloride
by
simply
adding
a
liquid
de-icer
to
your
rock
salt.
Okay,
now
you
might
also
see
right
below
where
it
says:
39
percent
less
chloride.
It
also
says
return
on
investment
over
267
percent.
Okay.
G
This
is
something
that
it's
hard
to
understand
why
people
can't
grasp
this
simple
mathematical
logic
on
this.
Yes,
the
organic
de-icer
is
more
money
than
the
brine,
but
when
you
look
at
the
cost
savings
of
reducing
your
salt
application
rate
by
39
percent,
that
argument
of
being
significantly
more
costly
is
nonsense,
pure
nonsense.
G
561
tons
or
another
sort
of
visual
here,
542
semi
loads
of
rock
salt.
Now,
if
you
put
those
semis
nose
to
tail,
I
did
the
calculation
the
other
day
and
that
line
of
semis,
hauling
rock
salt
would
be
about
24
miles
long
if
you
put
them
from
nose
to
tail.
So
what
we're
talking
about
here
is
reducing
your
chloride,
emissions
by
13,
500
tons
in
542,
semi
loads
of
chloride.
G
All
right
now
page
six
gets
a
little
bit
more
into
the
numbers
and
if
you
just
look
there
in
the
the
top
blue
line
that
says
enter
data
here,
this
is
what
we
call
a
salt
savings
calculator
you
might
as
well
call
it
a
chloride
savings
calculator
and
I've
got
the
34
7
in
there
tons
that
you
use.
On
average,
I
have
64.
G
a
ton,
I'm
assuming
that
your
brine
that
you're
making
in
houses
costing
about
20
cents
per
gallon,
that's
most
dots
across
the
united
states,
peg
that
cost
at
about
20
cents
a
gallon.
I
have
it
calculated
that
you're
putting
it
on
at
seven
gallons,
a
ton.
Now
the
next
blue
line
there
line
number
five-
has
a
dollar
eighteen
in
it,
and
that
would
be
the
cost
of
our
product.
G
Once
you
purchase
our
product
and
mix
it
50
50
with
your
brine,
so
a
dollar
eighteen,
a
gallon
yeah
that
is
significantly
more
money
than
your
20
cents,
a
gallon
for
your
brine.
But
when
you
add
performance
into
the
equation,
we
go
down
to
the
yellow
section
down.
Here
we
see
64,
better
performance
means
you
can
back
your
application
rate
down
39
that
would
equate
to
the
542
semi
loads
of
rock
salt
and
your
net
savings
would
be
somewhere
in
the
ballpark
of
667.
G
G
If
you
continue
on
with
your
brine
on
rock
salt,
you
know:
maintenance
methods,
you're
gonna,
be
spending
about
41,
more
money
than
necessary
and
all
you've
got
to
do
is
make
the
transition
to
the
the
much
better
performing
product
that
you're
putting
on
that
rock
salt,
which
would
be
very
easy
for
you
guys
to
do
so.
Then
page
number,
seven
here.
G
What
does
this
267
return
on
investment?
Really
look
like
in
layman's
terms?
That
means
for
every
one
dollar
that
you
spend
on
this
better
performing
liquid
de-icer
you're,
going
to
save
two
dollars
in
67
cents,
so
invest
one
dollar
save
2.67,
okay,
page
eight
beat
heat
and
the
environment,
and
let
me
just
say
that
I've
listened
to
the
all
of
the
testimonies
today
and
I'm
a
hundred
percent
on
board
with
your
environmental
experts.
G
Yes,
chloride
is
a
huge
problem.
I
deal
with
an
organization
in
chicago
called
the
conservation
foundation.
I
sponsor
workshops
that
they
put
on
to
lower
chloride
emissions.
I
think
their
work
is
amazing,
and
lo
and
behold
we
have
about
40
agencies
in
the
chicagoland
area
that
are
using
our
product
to
lower
their
chloride
emissions.
But
let
me
touch
on.
I
have
four
things
here:
number
one
our
product.
As
I've
already
pointed
out,
I
can
give
you
the
ability
to
reduce
your
chloride
emissions
up
to
39
percent.
G
It
is
99
biodegradable
in
days
and
the
biological
oxygen
demand
or
bod
is
zero
at
39
degrees,
fahrenheit,
zero,
all
right
and
I'm
gonna
add
a
fifth
one
that
I
did
not
put
in
the
presentation,
because
I
heard
in
some
of
the
other
testimonials
talking
about
corrosion
our
product,
the
our
be
heat,
concentrate
that
you
would
be
mixing
with.
Your
brine
is
86
less
corrosive
than
salt
86
less
corrosive,
and
when
you
mix
our
product
with
your
brine,
it's
then
75
percent
less
corrosive
than
rock
salt
or
brine.
Okay.
G
G
This
is
the
quote
that
I
talked
about
a
little
bit
earlier
and
I
took
the
time
to
read
some
newspaper
articles
in
the
philadelphia
region
before
preparing
for
my
testimony
today,
and
one
quote
I
have
here
is
the
from
the
pennsylvania
d.o.t.
It
was
in
the
philadelphia
enquirer
on
january
11th
of
2022,
and
it
says-
and
I
quote,
materials
such
as
manufactured
manufacturing
and
agricultural
byproducts
manufactured
deicing,
composites
and
treated
salt
have
proven
effective
at
low
temperatures,
but
costs
significantly
more
than
roxul.
G
G
G
I
don't
have
that
argument
in
my
presentation
today,
but
I'd
surely
like
to
meet
you
someday
or
have
another
meeting
where
we
could
go
over
some
of
these
other
things
that
I
don't
have
time
today
now
on
this
last
page.
This
is
a
map
and
this
map
right
here.
Just
so
everybody
can
see
it
all
right.
This
map
is
all
of
these
little
push.
Pins
are
where
our
customers
are
at,
and
so
here
is
pennsylvania.
G
Right
there
and
here's
the
rest
of
the
world,
the
rest
of
the
world
is
right
here.
Okay,
when
my
advice
to
you
from
this
point
forward,
is
you
need
to
talk
to
people
agencies,
cities,
dots
that
are
using
these
products?
They
can
very
easily
convince
you
that
you
they're
going
to
tell
you.
You
must
use
these
products,
it's
a
no-brainer
and
you
should
guard
yourself
against
listening
to
people
that
are
10
years
behind
the
technology,
I'm
so
with
that
I'll
end.
B
B
We
had
about
five
different
people
on
this
particular
panel,
I'm
talking
about
a
number
of
issues
and
discussing
options
for
the
city
of
philadelphia.
What
I
will
say
to
everyone
on
the
panel
and
to
everyone
that
supported
a
conversation.
This
is
just
a
first
step
for
us
in
the
city
of
philadelphia.
This
is
the
first
time
that
we've
had
a
conversation
like
this
in
recent
history,
especially
post
pandemic.
B
We
need
to
be
as
efficient
and
as
effective
as
a
city
thinking
about
how
we
could
best
serve
the
citizens
of
philadelphia
and
making
sure
that
we're
being
as
environmentally
friendly
as
possible,
and
so
I
think
that
we've
gotten
a
lot
of
recommendations
here
today
before
we
move
on.
I
just
want
to
see
if
there
is
anybody
who
would
like
anybody,
who's
present,
whether
it's
members
of
the
committee
or
witnesses,
that's
here
today.
That
would
like
to
add
anything
to
the
conversation
that
has
not
yet
been
added.
B
B
There
being
none
I
want
to
thank
everybody
on
this
panel
for
your
testimony
today
is
greatly
appreciated.
Thank
you
for
your
insight
for
your
information,
your
expertise,
your
willingness
to
partner
with
the
city
of
philadelphia
and
your
availability
to
continue
to
be
a
resource
to
us
as
we
move
into
budget
season
and
determine
how
much
money
we're
going
to
spend
on
these
different
areas
and
how
those
dollars
will
be
allocated.
B
So
there
being
no
further
questions
from
members
of
the
committee
and
no
other
witnesses
to
testify
here
today,
I
will
ask,
as
I
did
multiple
times,
if
there's
anyone
else
present
in
this
hearing
whose
name
we
have
filled
the
call
that
which
wishes
to
offer
testimony
on
any
of
the
bills
being
considered
today,
there
being
none.
I
want
to
thank
everybody
on
the
panel
and
all
the
witnesses
for
their
participation
today.
We
appreciate
your
presence
and
this
concludes
our
hearing
on
the
streets
and
services
committee.
Thank
you,
madam
clerk,
and
your
entire
team.
B
Your
work
is
greatly
appreciated
and
thank
you
for
everybody.
The
members
of
the
committee
and
the
expert
witnesses
were
involved
in
this
conversation
as
well
as
the
folks
behind
the
scenes
who
made
this
happen.
This
was
a
great
dialogue.
There
was
a
lot
of
information
and
we
have
work
to
do.
Thank
you.
Everybody
have
a
good
day.
Thank
you.