►
Description
Consider staking with Interop Ventures 🥩 https://interop.ventures
------------------------------------
🔥 TOPICS
00:00:00 - Introduction
00:03:10 - Gregory and Regen's background
00:05:11 - Carbon credits overview
00:10:24 - The carbon costs
00:14:30 - Fungibility of carbon credits
00:23:20 - Accuracy of carbon reduction methods
00:27:10 - Government driven carbon incentives
00:34:26 - The relationship with crypto
00:38:14 - The Nature Carbon Ton token
00:40:21 - The interoperability challenges
00:44:25 - What token holders do
00:54:28 - Upgrading the tokenomics
00:57:26 - Regen 5.0 upgrade
01:04:15 - Accountability of claims
Regen Ledger 5.0 Upgrade: https://github.com/regen-network/governance/tree/main/proposals/2023-01-regen-ledger-v5.0-upgrade
👤 GUESTS
Gregory Landua: https://twitter.com/gregory_landua
------------------------------------
📱 SOCIAL MEDIA
Sebastien Couture: https://twitter.com/seb3point0
The Interop: https://twitter.com/TheInterop
A
We're
live.
My
guest
today
is
Greg
landua.
He
is
the
founder
of
region
Network
and
the
only
person
in
the
world
who
gives
me
mustache
Envy
today
we're
diving
into
regen
Network,
one
of
the
earliest
projects
in
Cosmos.
We'll
talk
about
the
NCT
token,
which
is
a
neutral
cover
task
token
neutral,
covered
ton
token
how
it
works,
provides
useful,
whether
carbon
offsetting
is
effective
in
curbing
climate
change.
A
Also,
we'll
talk
about
region
5.0
and
the
recent
upgrade
public
good
funding
and
a
lot
more
I'm
also
dying
to
find
out
why
he
thinks
that
blockchains
don't
eliminate
the
need
for
people
and
why
he's
increasingly
bearish
on
the
cause
of
foods
ecosystem
before
we
get
started,
make
sure
to
hit
the
like
button
hit.
The
notification
Bell
And
subscribe
to
get
notified
when
I
go
live
every
week
and
remember
that
none
of
what
we
discussed
here
on
the
interop
is
investment
device.
And
if
you
enjoy
this
content,
please
consider
staking
or
moving
your
delegations
to.
A
Inter
my
long-term
goal
at
the
podcast
here
is
to
not
take
sponsorship
and
staking
with
us
is
part
of
building
a
sustainable
business
model.
We're
live
on.
Evmos
Quicksilver
and
I'm
very
excited
to
announce
that
we
made
it
into
the
osmosis
and
Juno
active
set
this
week
and
we
need
your
delegations
to
keep
moving
up
the
ranking.
So
please
take
with
us
just
look
for
interrupt
in
the
active
validator
set.
My
guest
Gregory
Landing
is
coming
up
next
right
here
on
the
internet.
A
A
A
Good
to
see
you,
man
how's
it
going
pretty
good,
pretty
good,
it's
good
to
have
you
on
finally
great
to
be
here.
We
did
an
epicenter
episode
a
couple
of
months
ago,
and
you
know
that
was
the
first
time
you
had
been
on
epicenter
and
so
yeah
I
think
a
lot
of
people
are
familiar
with
regen
I
I
don't
want
to
go
into
like
you
know
what
is
regen
and
everything
here.
I
think
we
can
kind
of
keep
this
up,
keep
it
kind
of
summary.
A
If
people
are
interested
in
diving
a
little
bit
deeper
into
the
history
of
regen
and
and
the
mission
and
everything
they
can
go
and
listen
to
that
episode,
I
want
to
talk
here
about
well.
I
I
want
to
talk
about
this
recent
upgrade
because
there's
a
lot
of
technical
bits
in
there
that
are
really
interesting
and
also
interesting
in
terms
of
you
know,
moving
moving
the
cosmos
ecosystem
forward
in
terms
of
governance
and-
and
you
know,
there's
there's
a
ton
of
interesting
Dao
ideas
in
there
as
well
governance
proposal.
A
Also
discussing
this
neutral,
covering
time,
there's
been
a
little
bit
of
you
know,
skepticism
recently
about
carbon
credits,
so
getting
your
thoughts
on
that
too,
and
then
yeah
I
think
there's
other
things
we
can
discuss
like
public
goods
funding,
which
is
another
big
topic
right
now
so
but
yeah
briefly,
just
for
those
who
are
not
familiar
with
you.
If
there
are
people
out
there
who
are
not
familiar
with
you,
please
just
give
us
a
brief
introduction.
B
We
we
built
region,
Network
and
and
continued
to
evolve,
regen
Network,
really
to
fill
a
core
Gap
in
the
institutional
and
infrastructure
needs
for
appropriately
coordinating
action
on
climate,
valuing
ecological
resilience
and
regeneration.
These
are
sort
of
really
Core
Concepts
to
a
functional
economy
and
a
functional
Society.
They
also
happen
to
be
massive
profit
centers,
for
you
know
it's
it.
This
is
going
to
be
a
multi-trillion
dollar
per
year,
business,
the
natural
capital
and
climate
space,
and
so
it's
sort
of
both
serves
this
Mission
and
existential
need.
A
A
B
That's
emitted
out
in
the
atmosphere,
has
a
societal
cost
and
creates
risk
for
the
very
company.
That's
emitting
it
right,
and
so
this
is
complex,
but
there's
increasingly
there's
about
20
years
of
work
going
into
quantifying
how
much
that
cost
is
and
how
to
sort
of
pay
for
it
and
there's
different
schools
of
thought
about
how
to
pay
for
those
costs
right.
B
So
it's
a
it's
a
mechanism
to
fund
public
goods
and
and
fund
the
amelioration
of
public
bads
I,
guess
you
could
say
negative
externalities
any
in
the
economics
lingo
so
essentially
again
to
sort
of
recap:
app.
There
are
there's
sort
of
carbon
liability
that
companies
accrue
by
emitting
carbon
generally.
That
is
tracked
according
to
commitments
that
companies
make.
The
recent
sort
of
like
World
coordination
process
was
in
Paris
right
and
so
people
talk
about
the
Paris
Accords.
That
happened
in
what
was
it
now
20
20,
2019,
Paris,
2019.
B
Together
and
basically
said
hey,
we
want
to
have
a
global
economy
that
is
carbon
neutral
by
2050,
meaning
we're
capable
of
sequestering
or
pulling
or
or
you
know,
are
in-breath
and
our
out
breath
of
carbon
in
the
global
economy
is
balanced
by
2050.
and
in
order
to
do
that,
every
industry
and
every
business
and
every
company
made
a
set
of
commitments.
A
So
it's
a
it's
an
incentive
mechanism,
essentially
is
what
you're
saying
so
it
it
incentivizes
businesses
and
you
know,
also
also
people
to
some
extent.
Since
you
know
people
you
know
choose
with
their
dollars
which
businesses
they
deal
with.
They
they
want
to
conduct
business
with
it.
Incentivizes
businesses
to
limit
their
their
carbon
emissions
through
the
acquisition
of
these
credits.
Now.
B
A
A
B
Well,
this
is
a
whole
world,
you
know
so
there's
the
social
cost
of
carbon,
where
people
calculate
the
damage.
That's
done
through
climate
change,
which
you
know
increases
the
frequency
and
magnitude
of
large
storms,
for
instance,
or
you
know,
increases
the
cost
of
air
conditioning
or
increases.
There's
all
these
costs
that
increases
the
number
of
flooding
events,
these
sorts
of
things,
and
so
that
social
cost
of
carbon
is
that
different
people
come
up
with
different
numbers
right.
So
there's
a
quantitative
process
to
sort
of
add
up.
B
The
cost
is
generally
between
100
and
150
a
ton.
This
can
is
sort
of
considered
and
that's
like
an
academic
exercise.
That's
not
supply
and
demand.
Necessarily
that's
like
the
social
cost.
That's
been
calculated
generally
speaking,
markets
operate
by
supply
and
demand
right.
So
so
we
might
have
a
value,
but
value
is
not
always
connected
to
what
the
price
of
something
is
so
currently,
price
Discovery
in
the
market
is
how
much
demand
there
is
versus
how
much
Supply
there
is
so
there's
different
market
segments.
B
There's
compliance
markets
like
the
European
Union
right,
so
the
European
Union
has
a
compliance
Market
where
all
they
have
like
they
manage
a
you
know.
There's
Regulatory
and
government
oversight
around
the
carbon
markets
and
every
company
has
sort
of
their
allocation
and
they
have
to
balance
that
on
the
carbon
Market
I
we
could
check.
We
could
Google
it
really
quick
generally
like
last
year
at
the
peak
of
car
carbon
fever.
When
everybody
was
like
wow,
this
is
going
to
be
big.
B
B
Then
there
is
the
voluntary
carbon
market
and
that
voluntary
carbon
Market
has
a
much
broader
price
range.
So
the
price
range
in
the
voluntary
carbon
Market
is
from
like
two
dollars
a
ton
up
to
like
a
thousand
dollars
a
ton.
It's
a
it's
a
giant
and
then
there's
sort
of
projections
about
if
every
company
that
has
pledged
carbon
neutrality
and
is
signed
up
to
these
commitments
and
if
the
SEC
follows
through
with
its
Regulatory
Compliance
for
public
companies
and
if
and
if
all
these
things
that
have
happened
continue
to
happen.
A
I
see,
and
so
what
one
of
the
things
that
I
remember
from
our
conversation
last
time
on
epicenter
that
maybe
I'd
like
to
revisit
here,
is
the
fungibility
of
of
carbon
credits.
If
you
look
at
other
Commodities
things
like
gold
things,
like
you
know,
food
commodities,
there's
a
I
think
for
most
Commodities,
there's,
probably
a
fairly
standardized.
A
B
B
A
And
and
then
so
there,
you
can
say:
okay,
like
the
an
ounce
of
gold
that
that
adheres
to
this
standard,
is
where
it's
worth
this
much
and
that's
measurable,
and
it's
it's
you
can
you
can
measure
that
and
test
for
it
in
the
case
of
carbon
credit
it?
It
feels
to
me,
like
the
the
effectiveness
of
one
initiative
through
reduced
carbon
versus
another
and
in
all
of
the
different
ways
in
which
one
could
try
to
reduce
their
carbon
footprint
is
fairly
varied.
A
B
How
do
you
grade
and
sort
and
allow
discoverability
price
discoverability
in
a
rational
and
logical
way,
according
to
a
set
of
quality
for
carbon,
is
one
of
the
primary
functions
that
region
network
is
aiming
to
provide
to
the
marketplace
so
there's
different
ways:
I
could
answer
this,
but
I
want
to
start
by
just
like
outlining
the
different
candidates
and
like
this
is
still
very
early
days
for
this
market.
So
there
isn't
consensus
about
like
what
the
market
is
going
to
choose
to
grade
carbon
right,
complete
consensus
at
least
there's
there.
B
There
are
arguments
and
there's
still
sort
of
like
there's
competition
to
see
what
this
is
going
to
actually
end
up
being
right,
so
just
to
like
put
that
out
there,
okay,
so
step
one
one
of
the
primary
well,
so
taking
a
step
back,
there's
two
Dimensions
to
think
about
one
is
the
scientific
certainty
about
the
claim,
that's
being
made,
that's
one
dimension
of
quality.
How
certain
are
we
and
it
costs
more
money
to
be
more
certain,
and
you
see
this
to
some
degree
with
like
gold?
B
Even
right,
you
know,
if
you,
you
have
things
that
are
assayed
and
certified,
and
third
parties
have
weighed
right.
You
have
a
high
degree
of
certainty
that
you're
getting
what
you
say
versus
like
you
know.
You
bite
it
and
you're
like
yeah.
It
tastes
like
gold.
It
feels
about
right.
Okay,
that
feels
like
it's
about
an
ounce
and
it
you
know,
has
it
right,
so
you
can
see
like
the
more
effort
you
put
in
the
more
inter
subjective
verification,
the
more
different
people
attest
to
the
veracity
of
something,
the
more
sure
you
get.
B
B
So
how
charismatic
is
it
how
powerful?
What's
the
public
goods
story
that's
being
brought
into
the
marketplace
by
this,
and
so
you
have
that
x,
y
axis
and
generally
speaking,
that's
sort
of
like
the
carbon
price,
Discovery
access
right
and
then
you
can
dig
into
that
and
there's
differences
of
opinion
about
quality
public
goods
like
different
people
want
different
things.
Maybe
some
people
want
a
healthy
agricultural
system?
Maybe
some
people
want
Forest
conservation?
B
Maybe
some
people
want
it
to
be
completely
a
machine
world
and
they
want
giant
machines
that
suck
carbon
out
of
the
atmosphere.
You
know
people
have
different
preferences
and
so
therefore,
that
that
relays
into
the
the
marketplace
and
then
there's
a
scientific
rigor.
Okay,
now,
let's,
let's,
let's
like
dissemble
that
pattern
into
some
of
its
component
parts.
So
this
is
going
to
be
a
little
jargony,
I'll,
try
to
say
a
term
and
then
unpack
what
that
term
means.
B
That's
how
long
is
the
carbon
in
question
going
to
be
sequestered
and
stored
out
of
the
atmosphere
right
and
in
some
like
in
an
agriculture,
carbon
credit,
the
durability
and
per
and
or
permanence
is
fairly
low
because
it's
a
shorter
carbon
cycle
like
because
soils
naturally
breathe
and
they
have
a
tighter
relationship
between
then,
for
instance
like
turning
it
into
biochar
or
even
a
forestry
project
that
carbon
Cycles
a
little
bit
longer
right,
okay,
so
so
durability
and
permanence.
That's
that's
a
that's
a
prime
concern
and
for
some
people
it's
the
highest
concern.
B
The
second
is
what
is
generally
called
additionality.
An
additionality
is,
how
sure
are
we
that
this
wouldn't
have
happened
through
other
means
that
it
required
a
market
and
a
price
in
order
to
do
it
right
or
another
definition
of
additionality
depending
on
you
know
the
market
preference
is.
How
sure
are
we
that
the
action
that
we're
funding
is
responsible
for
the
outcome?
B
B
B
Can
we
be
sure
that
this
project,
sequestering
carbon,
didn't
make
someone
else
emit
carbon
somewhere
else
due
to
like
a
second
order
effect
where
it's
like,
oh
I,
put
in
you
know,
I
preserved
this
Forest,
but
they
just
chopped
that
Forest
down
over
there.
So
it's
the
the
net
carbon
impact
was
the
same,
so
you
can
see
those
are
fairly
complex
and
they
require
sort
of
like
an
observation
and
surveillance
apparatus.
B
That's
quite
sophisticated
to
be
able
to
both
you
know
and
a
contract
apparatus,
it's
fairly
sophisticated
because
you're,
making
multi-party
contracts
about
a
particular
place
and
you're
trying
to
observe
these
multiple
dimensions.
In
order
to
generate
that
value.
So
I'll
pause
see
what
questions
it.
A
How
effective
can
we,
how
effective,
can
we
hope
that
these
assets
are
actually
priced
in
and
how
confident
can
we
be
that
these
methods
of
measurement
are
are
accurately
representing
the
the
carbon
that
a
specific
credit
is
offsetting
and
and
I
think
what's
really
at
stake
here?
Is
the
legitimacy
of
carbon
credits
as
an
effective
as
an
effective
way
to
offset
carbon.
B
B
Yeah,
it's
a
totally
valid
question,
I
think
so
the
answer
to
the
you
know
so
so
like
they
not,
they
answer
the
subjects,
but
the
answer
to
the
sort
of
specifics
that
you
were
asking
about
so
there's
two
ways
that
we
try
to
address.
Uncertainty
related
to
claims
one
is
to
be
transparent
with
the
market
about
the
level
of
uncertainty,
because
markets
are
good.
Like
people,
people
aren't
certain
about
lots
of
things.
We
that's.
We
have
insurance.
B
B
Okay,
so
that's
number
one
and
that's
true
with
anything
like
any
Financial
instrument,
any
stock,
any
everything,
a
hundred
percent
of
anything
that
anybody
ever
buys
has
a
level
of
uncertainty,
and
this
is
what
I
think
doesn't
get
sort
of
like
we
don't
wrap
our
head
around
everything
everything
you
know
the
FED
interest
rate.
The
everything
is
like
foggy
and
you
know
we
have
to
figure.
We
have
to
calibrate
and
actually
dealing
with
uncertainty
is
What.
Markets
are
great
for
that.
B
This
is
the
magical
thing
of
of
like
a
market
approach
to
something,
whereas
if
we
were
trying
to
create
a
bureaucratic
approach
right-
and
this
is
like
this
is
the
interesting
thing-
so,
okay,
we
can
have
two
different
conversations
we
could
have
is
I.
Don't
know
we
could
say:
oh,
is
climate
change,
even
a
thing
and
is
carbon?
Even
a
problem
is,
should
we
even
deal
with
this
I?
Don't
really
want
to
go
into
that
right.
A
A
A
Yeah
so
from
a
European
perspective,
I've
I've
mostly
been
skeptical
of
of
carbon
credits
and
and
the
incentivizations
mechanisms,
because
they've
been
driven
by
government
by
by
governments
and
by
the
EU
and
I,
don't
trust
those
institutions
to
make
the
best
decisions.
I
think
there's
historical
precedent
there
and
then
the
broader
question
that
I've
started
considering
here
is
to
what
extent
does
to
what
extent
has
the
policies
around
incentivizing
carbon
emission
reduction
through
carbon
credits
perhaps
been
an
accelerator
of
you
know
the
the?
What
I
think
is.
A
You
know
a
looming
energy
crisis
in
Europe
and
perhaps
across
the
world,
and
you
know
to
be
more
specific.
There
is,
has
government
policy
around
you
know
ESG
Etc
really
accelerated,
not
taking
into
account
the
kind
of
blocks.
One
event
which
was
like
a
you
know,
a
hot
war
in
Ukraine
and
in
the
context
of
reducing
investments
in
in
in
in
and
nuclear
reducing
investments
in
fossil
fuel
research.
Etc.
A
A
B
So
so,
there's
two
there's
just
a
lot
of
different
things.
So
different
people
have
different
opinions
about
nuclear,
for
instance,
but,
broadly
speaking,
nuclear
is
is
a
low
carbon
energy
source.
So
if
what
you're
aiming
to
do
is
to
decarbonize
your
grid,
you
know
you,
you
would
probably
choose
nuclear
right
over
Russian
gas,
for
instance.
So
that's
a
different
there's,
a
different
argument.
However,.
B
Done
but
but
Germany
nuclear
and
that
wasn't
driven
by
so
so
there's
two
different
things
going
on.
One
is,
if
you
place
a
price
on
carbon-
and
you
say
as
a
society,
we
want
to
decarbonize
our
energy
grid.
For
instance,
that's
good
for
creating
resilience
against.
You
know:
Petro
real
politic
and
geopolitical
like
like
there's,
actually
a
complete
alignment
between
placing
a
like
dealing
with
the
reality
of
the
like
the
thermodynamic
and
geophysical
reality
of
carbon
Cycles
right
and
the
geopolitical
reality
of
bullies
and
War.
There's
a
complete
alignment
between
those
two
things:
okay,.
B
There's
other
political
challenges
like
oh,
we
don't
want
to
deal
with
this
or
we
want
to
deal
with
that
or
other
their
special
interests.
Democracies
messy
things
get,
but
in
no
way
is
dealing
with
like
creating
a
like
a
healthy
carbon
cycle
for
our
economy,
at
odds
with
also
your
that
creates
resilience
and
Independence
in
a
global
world
of
you
know:
control
over
energy
resources.
B
That's
what
that
does
so
I
I
would
say:
they're
actually
like
line
up
really
well
and
that
the
static
and
the
confusion
that's
happening
in
Europe
is
due
to
other
things.
Not
you
know
and
like
Russia
or
whoever
will
you
know
it's
like
all
of
a
sudden
being
anti-nuclear?
Becomes
this
Anonymous
with
being
like
Pro,
you
know,
I,
guess
healthy
climate
or
something,
but
that
mimetic
like
we
have
to
look
a
layer,
deeper,
there's
propaganda,
there's
memetic,
Warfare,
there's
all
sorts
of
things
going
on
which
are
trying
to
confuse
and
Cloud
the
decision-making
process.
A
B
Policies
are
complicated
thing
right,
different
people
Lobby
for
different
policies,
and
it's
not
like
a
unified
thing.
So
people
are
people
want
to
you
know
like,
but
yeah
like
how
do
we
know?
How
do
you
know
that
Russia
didn't
fund
all
of
the
and
all
the
nuclear
decommissioned
campaigns
in
Germany
just
curious.
B
B
But
but
and
green
pieces
Greenpeace
does
amazing
work
in
the
world,
but
they're
also
like
super.
You
know
they
have
their
perspective.
You
can
disagree
or
agree,
sometimes
they're
on
the
right
side,
sometimes
they're
on
the
wrong
side.
You
know:
where
are
they
getting
money?
Where
is
it
getting
funneled
from
you
know,
it's.
B
Get
out
of
the
complicated
thing
and
get
back
to
sort
of
like
there's
uncomplicated
parts
of
this,
which
are
you
know,
for
instance,
like
let's
get
back
to
crypto,
okay,
there's
a
very
linear
and
clear
relationship
between
what
we're
doing
and
the
value
that
a
protocol
like
osmosis,
for
instance,
has
in
the
marketplace.
So
there's
a
huge.
So
so
the
growth
of
our
industry
requires
new
people
to
come
in
and
engage
with
the
functionality
and
for
the
industry
to
grow
as
a
whole.
B
B
Now
there's
a
lot
of
people
who
don't
want
to
engage
with
crypto
because
they
have
concerns
about
energy
usage
and
you
know
like
we
can
unpack
what
about
that
is
rational,
and
what
about
that
is
irrational.
We
can
have
this
different
conversation
I'm.
Just
stating
that
that's
a
that's
a
big
thing
for
a
lot
of
people
right,
yeah,.
A
A
B
B
B
You
know
running
running
computers
of
silicon
that
require
usually
carbon
energy
in
order
to
keep
them
running,
and
in
order
for
us
to
have
the
conditions
for
health
and
wealth
and
success,
we
need
to
like
not
in
our
own
nest.
Essentially
right,
you,
you
have
to
keep
the
conditions
for
your
welfare
good.
B
Well,
there
is
no
somewhere
else
on
planet
Earth,
so
every
blockchain
and
every
business
and
every
human
has.
We
have
to
coordinate
to
figure
out
how
to
not
just
be
exhausting
our
planet,
like
that's
a
thermodynamic
geophysical
reality
for,
in
order
for
us
to
have
economic
activity
right
like
we
require
Healthy
Planet
for
economic
activity
and
of.
B
B
B
So
it
has
the
it
has
two
different
forms
of
utility
there,
so
NCT
as
a
first
generation
token,
as
carbon
credits
is
sort
of
their
legacy,
carbon
credits
that
are
coming
off
of
the
the
sort
of
largest
and
most
well-renowned
verification
body
for
voluntary
carbon
credits,
which
is
Vera.
These
were
tokenized
by
toucan,
which
is
a
tokenization
protocol
and
we
helped
co-create
some
of
the
standards
about
what
got
into
that
sort
of
basket.
B
So
talking
about
like
what's
fungible,
what's
not,
we
helped
in
we
leaned
in
with
a
body
of
other
actors,
helped
set
those
standards
and
now
NCT
is
being
bridged
over
from
polygon
into
the
region.
Marketplace,
and
then
people
can
do
what's
called
basketing
it,
and
that
turns
it
into
a
fungible
IBC
token,
which
then
allows
it
to
move
to
osmosis,
and
we
can
talk.
A
So
yeah,
let's
talk
about
that
partnership
and
also
I'm
curious.
What
are
some
of
the
technical
you
mentioned?
There
were
some
improbability
issues,
because
I
believe
this
is
a
standard
that
you
guys
have
built
and
you've
built
some
custom.
Sdk
modules
around
this
this
this
this
new
token
type
I,
think
yeah.
Can
you
talk
about
that?
Yeah.
B
Well,
so
we
built
the
Eco
credit
module,
which
is
a
token
standard
that
runs
on
regen
Ledger,
and
we
basically
had
to
reconcile
our
both
IBC
token
standards
and
Eco
credit
token
standards
with
a
polygon
like
erc20
token
standard
and
the
the
interoperability
challenge
here
is
that
this
isn't
just
an
erc20
token.
These
tokens
have
sort
of
like
a
payload
of
metadata
and
functionality.
That
has
to
go
with
the
token
because
it
has
to
be
able
to
be
retired.
B
You
have
to
keep
track
of
who
bought
the
token
and
then
retired
it
to
actually
have
the
system
work.
So
message,
passing
and
more
sophisticated
Bridge
stuff
is
is
required,
and
so
we
had
to
build
that
out,
basically
to
be
able
to
create
this
interchain
interoperability
to
a
level
that
other
people
haven't.
Yet
you
know
that
that
use
case
hasn't
been
top
of
mind
for
a
lot
of
the
bridge
folks.
B
So
we
have
amazing
things
happening
over
on
evmos,
really
cool
things
happening
on
stargaze
and
this
exciting
launch
on
osmosis
and
so
the
launch
on
osmosis
sort
of
a
protocol.
The
protocol
partnership,
which
is
very
exciting.
So
the
osmosis
Community
voted
to
pre-buy
I
think
like
a
five-year
supply
of
carbon,
offsets
right
and
then
do
liquidity
provision,
so
they're,
offsetting
and
then
they're
doing
liquidity
provision
and
then
there's
sort
of
a
constant
purchase
price
and
then
there's
other
stargaze
and
other
folks
have
voted
to
do
offsetting.
B
So
you
can
start
to
gauge
the
demand
and
we
can
create
liquidity
with
real
utility.
That's
creating
this
sort
of
internal
carbon
offsetting
economy
so
that
protocols
again
are
climate
positive,
carbon
negative,
and
this
is
sort
of
like
this
first
generation,
carbon
Credit
in
the
IVC
World
yeah
and
it's
launching
in
March,
which
is
super,
exciting
I.
Think
there's
going
to
be
about
300.
B
B
A
B
Yeah,
so
each
one
of
these
tokens
represents
a
ton
of
carbon
that
has
been
verified
to
be
stored
right
and
according
to
these
standards,
so
the
utility
of
the
carbon
is
you
basically,
you
retire
it,
so
you
render
it
non-tradable
and
you
retire
to
a
specific
address
and
then
that
address
can
sort
of
claim
carbon
neutrality.
According
to
you
know,
the
number
of
carbon
tons
that
it's
required,
you
know
related
to
their
carbon
emissions
budget
right.
B
B
To
speculate
on
the
fact
that
somebody
else
wants
to
buy
it
and
retire
it,
but
it
has
a
use
like
what
I'm
just
saying
is:
there's
this
utility
and
that
utility
is
to
create
is
to
actually
retire
it
and
take
it
out
of
circulation
and
to
use
it
once
it's
been
used.
Otherwise,
the
carbon
counting
scheme
wouldn't
work
right.
If
you
can
trade
it
after
you
count.
Your
like,
like
I,
can't
be
like.
B
B
Is
built
to
allow
people
to
manage
the
minting
process
of
carbon
credits
and
other
Eco
credits,
biodiversity
there's
a
whole
burgeoning
Marketplace
that
assigns
value
to
conservation
and
regeneration
outcomes.
And
again
this
is
a
giant
industry.
That's
in
its
formation
phases
that
is
enabled
and
fueled
by
blockchain
right,
but
this
is
independent
of
this-
is
independent
of
the
blockchain
world
that
this
you
know.
This
whole
thing
is
happening:
billions
like
just
to
contextualize
the
global
carbon
markets.
Right
now
you
know
the
full
Global
carbon
markets.
B
Voluntary
carbon
market
last
year
was
about
two
billion
dollars
and
it
grew
it
doubles
from
the
year
before
and
the
year
before
that
it
was.
It
grew
30.
So
it's
in
this
like
very
rapid
growth
phase,
the
full
Global
carbon
markets,
which
includes
compliance
markets
from
around
300
billion
dollars,
payment
for
ecosystem
Services,
where
people
where
there's
there's
payment
for
specific
ecological
stewardship,
that's
taking
place
somewhere
that
stakeholder
needs
somewhere
around
40
billion
dollars
a
year.
B
B
What
region
network
does
is
it
allows
people
to
come
together
and
create
a
credit
minting
standard
right
where
you
say
this
is
how
we're
going
to
measure.
This
is
what
we're
going
to
measure,
how
we're
going
to
measure
it,
how
we're
going
to
answer
additionality,
durability,
leakage,
permanence,
if
you're
in
the
case
of
carbon
credits
or
in
the
case
of
biodiversity
credits
or
other
credit
forms
you'll,
have
different
criteria
that
you're
answering.
B
Our
our
governance
is
built
around
securing
and
and
giving
that
functionality
to
a
community
and
allowing
that
Community
to
govern
those
crediting
standards
efficiently
and
that's
a
that's
sort
of
like
using
a
public
blockchain
as
a
governance,
Network
and
registry
system
and
and
Marketplace
for
these
types
of
credits
is
really
quite
transformative
because
it
creates
this
vertically
integrated
application,
specific
blockchain
that
allows
us
to
disintermediate
huge
parts
of
the
market.
So
if
we
get
back
into
like
carbon
credit
markets
as
they
exist
right
now,
they're
really
inefficient.
B
It's
there's
a
lot
of
middlemen
in
between
a
buyer
and
a
seller.
It's
very
hard
to
do
price
Discovery,
it's
very
hard
to
know
exactly
what
you're
getting
and
by
integrating
a
registry
system
with
a
Marketplace.
We
really
disintermediate
that.
So
you
know
exactly
what
you're
getting
it's
efficient
to
to
like
mint
and
go
through
the
process,
and
then
you
can
actually
set
the
foundation
for
this
efficient
price
Discovery.
We
know
what
we're
getting
and
why
we're
getting
it,
and
just
like
really
transform
that
industry
and
build
it
on
solid
footing.
B
One
of
the
other
things
that's
very
exciting
about
how
we've
approached
things
at
Region
network
is
stakeholder
governance.
So
traditionally
a
market
like
this
may
end
up
getting
captured
by
demand.
That
makes
sense
like
it's,
like
the
people
with
the
money
end
up
capturing
the
full
marketplace.
Well,
in
this
case,
we
actually
have
land,
stewards
and
Indigenous
people
and
scientists
participating
in
governing
and
owning
the
network
alongside
the
buyers
and
the
corporates
and
the
verifiers
in
these
other
bodies.
B
So
there's
like
a
co-ownership
of
the
marketplace
and
the
platform
which
generates
the
legitimacy,
the
transparency,
the
efficiency
and
the
trust
that
the
market
requires
to
actually
work
and
to
generate
the
outcome
at
the
end
of
the
day,
the
outcome
needs
to
be
that
the
that
the
unit
that
you
buy
clearly
and
directly
represents
the
impact
that
it
says
it
does
right.
That's
the
core
question
right,
that's
the
core
question
and
any
of
the
challenges
and
confidence
that
the
marketplace
has
around
that
undermine
the
value
of
the
that
unit
for
sure.
B
So
that's
kind
of
you
know,
region,
Network's,
focus
and
circling
back
to
NCT.
You
know,
NCT
is
this
first
generation
liquidity
launch
of
the
best
possible
in
this
moment
carbon
credits
right
and
then
there's
this
next
generation
and
I
just
mentioned.
We've
built
this
functionality
on
chain,
we've
built
a
whole
community,
so
there's
more
than
40
different
groups,
innovating
their
own
credit
classes.
Right
now
going
through
governance
and
science.
It's
a
that's.
A
giant
undertaking,
like
just
people,
should
understand,
there's
a
huge
amount
of
science,
research,
development
and
Community
power
going
into
what's
taking
place.
B
Six
of
those
credit
classes
are
coming
over
the
next
two
quarters
into
regions
Marketplace,
so
there's
culson
carbon
trust,
which
is
biochar
credits,
there's
Roots,
holistic
management,
soil,
carbon
credits.
There
are
environmental
stewardship
credits
coming
online,
there's
Jaguar
biodiversity
credits
coming
online,
there's
European
regenerative
agriculture
credits
coming
online,
higher
quality,
more
assuredness
than
the
compliance
market,
and
a
lot
of
these
are
getting
pre-bought
like
some
of
these
credits
you
can't
get
like
they
won't
even
make
it
to
the
marketplace.
B
So
that's
sort
of
like
the
real
excitement
is
as
we
get
to
this
next
generation
of
carbon
credits,
and
somebody
asked
what
does
the
region
token
do?
Region
token
secures
the
application
specific
blockchain,
so
region
token
is,
is
really
focused
on
governing
and
securing
a
proof-of-stake
blockchain.
So
it's
a
proof
of
stake
token
and
its
primary
utility
is
security
and
governance
of
the
core
utility
right.
B
So
up
any
software
upgrades
and
other
things
we
haven't
gotten
to
talk
about
I
mean
we
sort
of
went
in
a
little
circle
around
the
carbon
Market
questions,
but
we
haven't
gotten
talked
so
much
about
region,
Ledger,
5.0
and
sort
of
governance
yeah.
We
can
also
dig
into
sort
of
you
know
tokenomics,
but
the
high
level
takeaway
for
folks
is
that
that
currently
the
tokenomics
of
regen
Ledger
are
a
pretty
standard
proof
of
stake.
Token
economics
right
yeah,.
B
So
you
know,
I
think
an
engineering
token
economics
upgrades
is
is
complex,
so
I.
Think
I'm
of
the
opinion
is
something
that
we
evolve
slowly
and
this
is
what
we
outlined
in
the
white
paper
and
the
token
economics
paper.
There's
a
technical
token
economics
paper
that
sort
of
charted
the
forward
pathway
but
also
talked
about
the
choice
of
using
just
a
standard
proof
of
stake,
and
why
and
some
of
the
options
that
were
considered
if
people
are
interested,
they
can
go
geek
out
on
that.
B
Those
are
three
things
that
I
think
are
going
to
be
fairly
non-controversial
and
aren't
radical
changes
to
the
Token
economics.
There
are
also
I
mean
there's
also
a
pretty
fundamental
radical
upgrade
coming
up
likely
it's
in
governance
right
now,
which
is
a
shift
to
adopt
the
liquid
staking
module
right
and
that
actually
transforms
the
economics
entirely,
and
you
know
that
looks
like
it's
going
to
move
forward
and
I'm
quite
excited,
because
that
also
gives
us
more
tools
to
build
liquidity,
around
Eco
credits,
for
instance
in
creative
ways.
So
that's
a
very
interesting
sort
of
evolution.
A
Okay,
yeah
a
stream
yard
just
started
playing
some
music
in
the
background.
I
I,
don't
know
if
you
guys
could
hear
that
that
was
a
bit
weird
yeah,
so
I'd
like
to
talk
a
little
bit
about
the
regen
5.0
upgrade.
So
there
is
a
GitHub
page
that
I'll
put
in
the
show
notes:
there's
a
governance
proposal
that
passed
in
January
explaining
this
upgrade
and
there's
a
there's
a
couple
of
interesting
things
in
here.
A
B
Yeah,
it's
a
huge
upgrade
group.
Module
is
really
a
big
deal
and
it's
going
to
transform
not
just
regen
ledgers
governance.
I
think
we
might
be
the
first
chain,
that's
running
it,
but
ecosystem-wide
in
the
cosmos
ecosystem.
So
what
group
module
allows
is
for
you
to
essentially
create
a
Dao,
a
collection
of
addresses
and
then
set
a
governance
policy
over
any
of
the
capabilities
that
that
address
has
so,
for
instance,
you
could
create
a
dow,
that's
governing
the
community
spin
pool
and
elect
members
to
that
Dao
right.
B
If
you
wanted
like
a
fed
or
something
like
that,
you
know
you
could
have
a
dow
that's
governing
any
on-chain
parameter
like
and
for
us
this
is
about
Eco
credits,
so
we
can
create
subgroups
that
are
specifically
governing
Eco
credit
parameters,
methodology
parameters
and
other
functionality
that
we've
built
into
the
blockchain
I.
Think
we'll
also
use
it
to
engage
a
little
bit
with
governance
of
like,
for
instance,
the
community
spin
pool,
and
this
is
I
want
to
get
into
you
know,
I
met
you
mentioned,
you
know
Gregory's
bearish
on
Cosmos.
B
Well,
let
me
say
why,
right
because
we
continue
to
to
procrastinate
dealing
with
important
structural
governance
and
funding
of
public
goods
issues,
and
instead
we
engage
in
politics
that
are
essentially
you
know.
I
want
to
get
money
from
all
of
you
and
so
I'm
gonna
like
engage
in
a
political
fight
over
this
single
issue.
B
A
B
B
B
Bullish
case
here
is
that
we
have
that
we
can
iterate
and
experiment
and
create
effective
ways
to
govern,
and
so
that's
part
of
what
the
group
module
allows.
The
group
module
allows
for
flexible
delegated
governance
over
specific
elements.
That's
transparent,
right,
that's
fully
transparent
and
it
allows
off
Z
to
oversee
things.
So
you
can
have
the
community
override
something
or
boot
out
a
delegate.
You
can
assemble
a
group
of
people
and
in
a
much
more
effective
way
than
just
like
hey.
This
is
a
multi-sick,
so
I.
A
B
Hope,
I
really
hope
that
is
the
first
like
it's
in
downtown
is
great
too,
like
just
a
shout
out
to
Jake
and
the
Dow
Dao
Innovation
other
stuff
awesome
awesome
stuff,
not
everybody's
gonna,
adopt
cosmosm
right.
So
this
is
a
sort
of
safe
and
audited
part
of
the
cosmos
SDK.
That
natively
allows
a
blockchain
running
an
IBC
blockchain
to
deal
with
a
lot
of
the
governance
issues.
B
From
a
software
perspective,
it
doesn't
solve
like
The,
Meta
issue
of
democratic
governance,
but
you
know
one
of
the
things
I
think
we
need
to
be
a
little
bit
more
courageous
around
and-
and
this
is
sort
of
like
my
hot
take
number
two
was
you
know:
blockchains,
don't
diminish
the
need
for
humans
right
yeah.
Fundamentally,
this
is
a
coordination.
B
Blockchains
are
a
piece
of
software
that
allows
a
community
to
generate
consensus
and
represent
that
consensus,
computationally
that
can
be
value
in
different
in
different
domains
and
different
circumstances,
but
that
is
by
definition,
a
governance
activity
we
are.
We
are
coming
together
with
our
computers
and
generating
consensus.
So
if
we
don't
think
deeply
about
what
that
means
and
how
to
do
it
well
and
have
experiments
so
that
different
people
are
trying
different
things,
then
we're
we're
losing
the
thread
I.
Think
of
what
is
actually
transformative
about
the
technology.
Yeah.
A
A
If
you
want
to
appeal
to
the
community
for
funding,
for
example,
you've
got
to
deal
with
the
fact
that
you're,
you
know
you're
talking
with
the
community,
and
so
you
have
to
address
all
the
issues
and
and
I.
Don't
think
that
I
think
that
works,
maybe
now
but
I,
don't
think
it
works
at
a
scale
that
we
envisage
blockchains
to
become
like
it.
B
A
Work
when,
when
you
have
potentially
billions
of
people
interacting
with
blockchains
businesses
Etc,
you
need
to
have
some
amount
of
responsibility
placed
on
people
or
groups
of
people,
because
because
I
mean
effectively.
This
is
why
this
is
why
we
have
I
mean
to
some
extent
you
know
democracies,
we
we
have
layers
of
abstraction,
between
decision
making
and
and
and
those
who
are
concerned
now
you
know
it
doesn't
always
work
very
well.
In
fact,
I
think
the
issue
that
we,
the
issue
with
Democratic
Society,
is
that
there
isn't
enough
accountability
for
decisions
made.
A
A
B
Sure,
100
or
like
yeah
I,
think
we're
aligned
and
I
think
you
know
my
my
definite
My
Hope
Is
that
the
group
module
specifically
and
that
specific
piece
of
SDK
kit
that
shipped
with
046
right
and
is
now
available
to
any
blockchain
out
there
in
the
cosmos
ecosystem,
allows
us
to
create
what
I
would
refer
to
as
more
nested
governance,
meaning
you
can
have
accountable
responsible
people
looking
out
for
specific
things
who
are
elected
to
that
position
or
appointed
to
that
position
or
or
rotating
into
that
position.
I
mean
you
can
think
of.
B
There's
amazing
history
of
people
experimenting
with
different
ways
of
decision
making
and
governance
right.
We
have.
The
full
world
is
at
our
fingertips
in
terms
of
you
know,
I'm
not
here,
to
prescribe
what
the
best
way
of
doing
that
is
I.
Just
think
we
need
to
get
busy
getting
more
specific
about
who's
accountable
for
what
right,
how
are
they
being
held
accountable
because,
as
you
said,
it's
too
complex
I
believe
it's
too
complex
at
this
stage
to
continue
to
just
have
like
unicameral
mob
rule
like
like
people.
B
A
B
There
are
checks
and
balances
and
there's
a
separation
of
different
functions
that
then
check
each
other
and
I
think
we
need
to
evolve
quickly
quickly
and
effectively
evolve
checks
and
balances
like
we're
doing
this
on
Regent
Ledger
as
quickly
as
we
can
with
our
community,
but
you
know
I,
think
more
broadly
in
the
cosmos
ecosystem,
Cosmos,
Hub
and
Beyond.
There
needs
to
be
clear
checks
and
balances
and
clear
thinking
about
how
to
manage
that
for,
for
the
benefit
of
the
whole
protocol
and
the
larger
ecosystem
as
well.
Thank
you.
A
B
B
So,
like
I
will
not
vote
Yes
on
any
governance
proposal
on
the
cosmos
hub
that
isn't
dealing
with
checks
and
balances
and
pro
governance
process.
Anything
that
comes
up
I
am
a
no
to
and
I
would
encourage
everyone
else
to
be
a
no
to.
We
should
have
a
moratorium
on
any
new
spins.
We
should
have
a
moratorium
on
any
new
upgrades
and
we
should
say
the
most
important
thing
is
to
have
a
charter
and
a
process
and
set
of
checks
and
balances
in
a
first
iteration,
even
if
it's
only
for
a
period
of
time
right.
B
Even
if
it's
like
we're
going
to
do
this
for
a
quarter
whatever
it
is,
I
don't
know
how
to
push
it
through,
but
I
really
strongly
believe.
Nothing
else
should
go
through
until
that
happens.
Basically
that
and
that's
just
my
sort
of
opinion
in
the
cosmos
Hub
leads
and
that's
the
role
of
the
cosmos.
Hub
I
mean
people
other
people,
experiment
and
things,
but
in
a
conservative,
slow
way.
A
B
B
Don't
know,
but
that's
the
the
that's
Gregory's
like
no
more
tolerance
and
it-
and
this
is
like
I'm
saying
things
like
I
agree
with
a
lot
of
the
stuff.
That's
coming
through.
It's
like
I
I,
agree
with
it,
but
I
think
there's
a
deeper
thing
that
has
to
be
addressed
and
I
know
that
that's
hard
and
different
people
are
going
to
have
different
feelings
and
challenges
with
that.
But
my
opinion
is
until
we
deal
with
that.
B
I
can't
say
yes
to
anything,
because
it's
too,
because
I
don't
have
the
capability
to
follow
all
the
threads
and
to
assess
all
the
things
I
need
to
know
who's
accountable
and
who,
how
I
can
hold
them
accountable
to
deal
with
the
complex
decision.
Making
that
already
exists,
let
alone
is
going
to
exist
in
the
future.
A
A
B
Yeah
another
hour,
people
who
are
live
and
want
to
listen
to
someone
basically
rip
apart.
The
critiques
of
carbon
markets
live
on
Twitter
spaces
head
over
to
region
networks
Twitter,
because
I'm
going
to
be
interviewing,
Steve
zwick
who's
been
in
the
space
for
a
long
time
and
is
the
director
of
media
at
Vera,
which
is
the
biggest
carbon
voluntary
carbon
registry
system
and
there's
recently
been
a
bunch
of
drama,
Guardian
articles
and
other
things
calling
into
question.
You
know
all
sorts
of
things
we
released.
B
We
did
a
bunch
of
science
on
all
of
this.
Steve
is
going
to
be
talking
all
about.
We've
tried
to
cover
it
from
all
sides,
but
Steve
is
going
to
sort
of
like
give
his
take,
and
it's
probably
useful
for
people
to
listen
and
if
you're
curious
about
the
you
know
the
the
foundations
and
how
solid
the
foundations
are
for
for
carbon
markets
moving
forward.
It
should
be
an
interesting
Twitter
spaces.
A
Awesome
thanks
so
much
Greg
talk
to
you
soon,
ciao
and
to
our
listeners
thanks.
So
much
for
tuning
in
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