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From YouTube: Historic Landmarks Commission - November 05, 2020
Description
Historic Landmarks Commission Meeting - November 05, 2020
A
The
world
health
organization,
the
president
of
the
united
states,
the
governor
of
utah,
the
salt
lake
county
health
department,
salt
lake
county
mayor
and
the
mayor
of
salt
lake
city
have
all
recognized.
A
global
pandemic
exists
related
to
the
new
strain
of
the
coronavirus,
sars
cove
ii,
due
to
the
state
of
the
emergency
caused
by
the
global
pandemic.
A
I
find
that
conducting
a
meeting
at
an
anchor
location
under
the
current
state
of
public
health
emergency
constitutes
a
substantial
risk
to
the
health
and
safety
of
those
who
may
be
present
at
the
location.
Moreover,
the
city
and
county
building,
which
is
the
anchor
location
for
salt
lake
city,
historic,
landmark.
Commission
meetings
is
presently
closed
for
regular
occupation
due
to
damages
sustained
during
the
march
2020,
earthquakes.
A
C
C
If
you
haven't
joined
an
electronic
meeting
before
we
also
have
some
instructions
there
on
how
to
join
the
meeting
virtually.
If
you
have
major
issues
or
you
have
comments,
we
are
also
looking
at
our
email.
Please
feel
free
to
email,
us
at
historic
landmarks
at
combat
sorry,
historic
landmarks,
dot
comment
at
smc,
gov
dot
com
and
we
will
respond
back
to
you.
A
A
Welcome
to
the
historic
landmark
commission,
the
historic
landmark
commission
is
made
up
of
citizens
of
the
city
who
are
appointed
by
the
mayor
and
confirmed
by
the
city
council.
The
commission
primarily
does
three
things.
We
make
recommendations
to
the
city
council
on
policies
and
ordinances
related
to
preservation
in
salt
lake
city.
A
This
includes
the
designation
of
local
historic
districts
and
landmark
sites
as
a
certified.
Local
government
provide
input
to
the
utah
state,
historic
preservation
office
shippo
regarding
national
register
nominations
within
the
city.
We
are
also
charged
with
reviewing
and
making
decisions
on
land
use,
applications
for
properties
that
are
located
within
the
historic
preservation
overlay
district.
A
It
is
up
to
the
applicant
to
present
their
project
and
provide
evidence
that
shows
how
their
project
complies
with
the
specific
standards
of
review.
The
planning
staff
is
here
to
let
us
know
why
we
are
reviewing
an
application.
What
standards
we
need
to
use
in
making
a
decision
and
point
out
the
key
issues?
A
A
E
D
A
G
A
A
Thank
you.
The
minutes
are
approved
report
of
the
chair.
First
of
all,
as
has
been
mentioned,
we
welcome
three
new
members
to
the
commission
tonight:
babs
delay,
johnny
winowski
and
aiden
lilly.
Welcome
to
the
historic
landmarks
commission.
We
excited
to
have
you
here
and
look
forward
to
your
enthusiastic
participation.
A
C
I
have
one
item
the
land
commission
had
requested
badges
since
it's
getting
darker
and
nation
as
contentious.
It
is,
if
you're
out
and
about
looking
at
properties,
I
think,
especially
since
we're
going
into
fall
and
winter,
I
believe
marlene
sent
you
out
on
email,
but
we'll
be
sending
you
out
an
email
to
contact
hr
and
they,
if
you're
interested
in
having
a
badge
they
have
all
the
machinery
to
take
your
picture,
give
you
a
handy
dandy
badge,
so
you
can
be
official
in
case.
A
H
Oh
yeah,
next
to
your
name
and
your
participant
list
attendee
list
there's
there
should
be
a
little
a
small.
Unfortunately,
it's
super
small
little
icon.
That
looks
like
a
hand
if
you
click
on
that,
it
will
indicate
to
us
that
you
want
to
speak
on
an
item.
So
you'll
have
a
few.
We
have
three
items:
three
public
hearings
on
the
agenda,
plus
the
general
comments
section.
H
A
I
I
A
J
K
K
K
So
this
is
for
the
fisher
mansion
carriage
house,
a
chemical
coding
request,
a
crsa
on
behalf
of
salt
lake
city
parks
and
public
lands
is
requesting
a
major
alteration
to
the
carriage
house
associated
with
the
fisher
mansion.
This
property
is
located
at
1206,
west
200
sounds
and
is
designated
as
a
salt
lake
city
landmark.
K
The
key
considerations
that
were
identified
in
the
staff
report
include
the
alteration
of
the
appearance
of
the
historic
masonry.
Staff's
main
concern
with
any
sort
of
anti-graffiti
coding
or
chemical
coding
is
the
potential
impact.
The
visual
nature
of
the
historic
masonry
chemical
coatings
can
often
alter
the
color
in
the
sheen
of
masonry.
K
The
other
key
consideration
identified
was
the
location
of
the
structure
and
the
likelihood
of
tagging
parks
and
public
lands
have
expressed
a
significant
concern
over
the
likelihood
of
this
structure
being
tagged.
The
fisher
mansion
has
been
tagged
at
least
on
one
occasion
during
the
duration
of
the
city's
ownership.
K
Staff
does
believe
that
this
is
likely
a
temporary
solution
due
to
the
sacrificial
nature
of
this
type
of
codeine
and
in
summary,
staff
is
recommending
that
the
landmark
commission
approve
the
recording
to
the
landmark
site
at
106,
west
200
south,
and
that
was
short
and
sweet.
I'm
happy
to
answer
any
questions
back
through
any
photos.
J
K
That
is
a
great
question
for
zach
clegg.
From
my
understanding,
the
coding
is
removed
when
the
building
is
tagged,
so
that's
what's
removed
if
they
need
to
remove
any
sort
of
graffiti
on
the
coding,
which
is
why
it's
considered
sacrificial.
So
it's
not
a
permanent
coating.
It
doesn't
seek
seep
into
the
brick
itself.
It's
more
of
a
surface.
G
It's
just
share,
you
know
it's
just
bads.
What
is
what
is
the
coding,
because
I
would
love
to
know
that
in
my
own
world-
and
I
remember
all
the
grandiose
dreams
of
this
place
and
the
city
had
it,
we
had
a
grand
opening
and
I
remember
the
wonderful
stained
glass
window
we
had
and
oh
what,
when
did
it
close?
I
was
totally
clueless
that
it
had
it
closed
and
then
I
drove
by
it
and
saw
it
was
boarded
up
so
just
a
little
bit
of
history
and
then
what
is
that
chemical?
K
Of
course,
so
I'll
give
you
a
little
bit
of
history.
The
main
mansion
is
not
included
in
this
proposal
because
there's
no
funding
for
a
reuse
of
the
main
mansion.
At
this
point.
This
is
only
for
the
carriage
house,
so
the
carriage
house
came
before
the
landmark
commission
this
summer
through
a
work
session
and
then
received
approval
for
an
adaptive,
reuse
for
a
community
and
river
engagement.
K
Center
recreation
center
and
tyler
can
correct
me
and
kind
of
provide
the
programming
behind
the
center,
but
the
exterior
it
has
very
minimal
modifications
that
were
approved
by
landmarks.
They
include
sorry,
I
thought
I
heard
somebody.
It
just
includes
two
big
modifications
to
the
east
elevation
and
the
south
for
additional
space
and
some
entrance
otherwise
they're
they're
keeping
the
building
as
is
and
restoring
the
exterior,
typically
preservation,
philosophy
and
principles
are
not
keen
on
approving
chemical
coatings
on
historic
masonry.
K
Just
because
of
those
items
mentioned
in
the
staff
report,
it
can
alter
the
sheen,
it
can
trap
moisture,
it
can
cause
damage
to
the
brick
and
the
mortar.
This
chemical
is
a
prosoco
chemical
which
zach
the
applicant
can
go
into.
It
has,
I
think,
quite
a
large
market
for
anti-graffiti
coatings
and
quite
a
large
use
as
as
well
as
in
historic
structures,
which
is
why
they
provided
a
test
area
to
see
if
there
would
be
any
sort
of
alteration
of
the
existing
masonry.
D
E
Okay,
so
yeah
kelsey
did
my
name's
zach
clegg.
I
work
with
crsa,
I'm
kind
of
filling
in
for
john
now
that
he
is
on
the
committee.
The
kelsey
did
a
great
job
kind
of
introducing
why
we
are
at
this
point
of
introducing
this
coating
to
the
carriage
house.
The
the
product
bounce
for
your
record
is
a
prosoco
sure,
clean
block
guard
and
graffiti
control
number
two.
So
that's
the
actual
name
of
the
product
that
we
are
proposing
for
the
the
carriage
house.
E
E
So
this
was
a
product
that
had
come
with
recommendation
from
zane
badger
he's
the
in
charge
of
the
city's
graffiti
program.
I
think
I
can't
remember
off
the
top
of
my
head
if
there
are
any
other
buildings
in
salt
lake
that
are
using
this
product,
but
it
was
comrade.
It
came
recommended
from
zane
badger
with
the
city,
okay,
so
I'll.
Let
tyler
kind
of
answer
that
quick
question
before
we.
You
know
get
too
far
into
that,
but.
L
E
Yeah
all
right,
there
was
one
thing
that
I
wanted
to
add
to
kelsey's
introduction,
so
we
do
have
some
well.
First
off,
we
did
send
out
kind
of
a
map
for
the
commissioners
to
go
actually
check
out
if
they
had
the
chance
to
look
at
the.
What
has
happened
on
the
mansion
itself
by
the
entrance
and
then
what
happened
once
they
removed
the
graffiti
and
then
also
to
look
at
the
test
site
on
the
west
side
of
the
carriage
house.
E
E
H
E
E
Yeah,
that
would
be
great
anyways.
I
can
kind
of
talk
about
it
while
she's
getting
into
that.
So
one
of
the
main
concerns
with
what's
previously
occurred
with
graffiti
at
the
mansion
is
that
when
the
graffiti
was
removed
from
the
brick
as
gently
as
possible,
what
it
does
it
kind
of
leaves
like
some
pretty
significant
damage
to
the
brick
in
the
form
of
creating
stippling
in
the
brick
and
okay.
E
So
right
here,
so
this
first
image
shows
to
the
right
is
an
area
that
previously
had
graffiti
on
it
and
it
was
cleaned
and
removed.
So
you
can
see
a
pretty
stark
difference
of
kind
of
where
the
brick
is
starting
to
pit
zayn
told
us
that
this
brick,
that
is
used
on
both
the
mansion
and
the
carriage
house,
is
very
soft
in
nature,
which
we've
really
seen
throughout
both
facades
and
so
the
damage
there
is
pretty
significant.
If
you
go
to
the
next
slide,
kelsey,
it
kind
of
shows.
E
Overall,
you
can
see
up
above
that
area
hasn't
been
tagged
and
then,
as
you
move
down,
you
kind
of
get
to
see
more
kind
of
blotchy
areas
where
graffiti
has
been
removed.
So
one
of
the
considerations
you
know
is
that
we're
adding
a
coating
to
the
brick,
which
does
ultimately
add
a
slight,
very
pretty
insignificant
change
to
the
appearance
of
the
brick,
but
in
comparison
to
what
currently
is
on
there,
which
is
nothing
and
kind
of
the
process
of
taking
the
the
graffiti
off
it.
E
It
really
does
create
a
more
permanent,
lasting
difference.
So
if
you
go
to
the
final
slide
there
kelsey,
so
this
shows
kind
of
up
close
the
the
test
area
that
we
did.
So
we
did
it
on
one
of
the
sills
and
then
also
the
brick,
that's
on
the
carriage
house,
so
you
can
see
to
the
left.
It
is
a
slightly
darker
appearance
and
that's
where
the
prosoco
has
been
applied
and
then
the
right
being
an
untouched
area.
So
that's
kind
of
what
the
whole
carriage
house
would
appear
as
once
we
do.
E
If
we
were
to
use
this
coating
on
there
and
then,
like
kelsey
said
it
is
a
sacrificial
coating,
so
it
would
remain
on
the
carriage
house
until
it
was
if,
in
the
event
that
it
is
tagged,
then
when
they
are
cleaning
off
the
graffiti.
You
know
with
like
a
pressure,
washer
and
water.
It
would
remove
the
coating,
so
they
would
need
to
then
reapply
it
for
future
in
case
of
future
vandalism
there.
E
So
the
good
thing
about
that
is
that
in
the
long
run
it
is
not
a
permanent
coating
like
kelsey
said
something
that
would
seep
in
and
kind
of
change
the
you
know
the
physical
makeup
of
the
shell
of
the
building
and
also
you
know
in
the
future.
If,
like
what
was
mentioned,
if
you
know
kind
of
more
eyes
on
the
street,
this
area
becomes
less
of
a
risk.
You
know
it
is
something
that
we
can
reverse
and
take
off
to
get
it
to
its
truly
authentic
appearance
there.
E
A
L
Yeah
I
can
answer
that.
That's
a
great
question.
There
will
be
a
few
other
measures
that
we'll
be
taking
when
this
eventually
opens
to
the
public.
Right
now
the
site
is
fenced
along
the
jordan
river
parkway
trail.
When
this
project
is
complete,
we
will
have
a
gate
that
will
be
provide
public
access
from
the
jordan
or
parkway
trail
to
the
fisher
mansion
and
the
carriage
house.
So
we
do
anticipate
a
lot
more
activity
at
the
carrick
house.
G
L
So,
yes,
that
is
a
long-term
plan,
is
to
activate
this
space
along
with
the
boat
ramp
here
into
the
future.
We're
currently
exploring
the
opportunity
to
have
a
canoe
share,
kayak
rental
program
that
we
would
run
out
of
this
area
as
well,
but
we're
currently
just
in
the
feasibility
phase
of
that
study.
M
Thank
you.
I
have
a
question
about
the
removal
of
the
graffiti,
so
zach
said
that,
with
this
current
chemical
that
there
that
we're
discussing
adding
to
the
fisher
mansion
that
it
will
be
removed
with
a
light
power
wash,
which
is
also
in
the
staff
report.
I
saw
that
written,
but
I
was
just
wondering
in
the
description
of
the
chemical.
It's
listing
for
grammy
removal,
two
different
products,
one
is
called
defacer.
E
So
my
understanding
is
that
it
kind
of
depends
on
the
level
of
the
graffiti
and
like
if
it's
how
long
it's
been
on
the
surface,
you
know
kind
of
allowing
it
to
dry
and
whatnot.
So
I
believe
that
you
know
initially
that
it's
kind
of
a
the
first
step
is
to
go
as
lightly
as
possible
and
invasively
as
least
invasive
as
possible,
so
that
would
be
just
like
simply
using
water.
E
Sometimes
they
use
like
a
water,
soap
kind
of
mixture
and
then
the
next
two,
those
two
products
that
are
used
for
the
removal-
I
I
believe,
are
more
kind
of
extreme
cases
that
we
really
don't
envision
happening
too
much
just
because
of
the
high
use
that
this
will
have
moving
forward.
It's
you
know
it's
not
going
to
sit
there
for
weeks
unnoticed.
L
Yeah,
I
can
speak
to
that
briefly
as
well,
so
in
our
site
visit
with
our
graffiti
manager
and
his
team,
one
of
the
real
benefits
that
we
see
of
adding
the
graffiti
coding
is
they
they
are
able
to
use
a
softer
treatment
for
removal.
So
during
that
visit
he
mentioned.
If
we're
able
to
get
this
prosoco
on
there,
he
essentially
would
be
able
to
use
soap
and
water
to
remove
it.
Chemical
treatment
is
primarily
used
when
we
don't
have
any
type
of
treatment
and
it
requires
a
more
rigorous
approach.
M
M
E
G
E
So,
like
the
the
carriage
house
there,
it's
they're
both.
Basically
a
very
I
mean
it's
an
1890s
structure,
so
the
kind
of
the
makeup
of
the
brick
and
the
mortar
is
pretty
pretty
rudimentary.
It's
a
soft
clay,
brick.
I
don't
believe
that
there's
been
any
sandblasting
on
it,
at
least
since
the
city
has
has
had
ownership
of
the
building.
E
It
does,
but
I
mean
just
over
the
years
and
stuff
if
you
were
to
go
there
and
look
on
site,
it's
pretty
evident
that
just
even
you
know,
kind
of
the
the
yearly
wear
and
tear
with
weather
and
and
things
like
that,
have
really
done
a
number
on
it.
So
there
are
a
few
spots
that
kind
of
do
seem
to
have
the
original
historic
appearance
of
it,
but
ultimately,
especially
on
the
carriage
house,
it's
it's.
You
can
tell
that
it's
been
pretty
weathered.
K
E
B
E
Currently,
there's
nothing
on
either
structures.
So
that's
the
carriage
house.
We
don't
have
any
signs
that
it's
been
tagged
necessarily
but
the
mansion,
that's
what
those
first
few
photos
were
showing
that
it
has
been
tagged
pretty
recently
actually
and
then
just
the
kind
of
damage
that
occurred
from
you
know
getting
removing
that
from
the
the
brick
itself.
B
E
I
don't
know
that
off
the
top
of
my
head,
but
I
would,
I
would
hope,
just
kind
of
seeing
what's
happened.
You
know,
I
know
it's
not
the
first
response
or
kind
of
solution
with
a
historic
building,
but
I
think
just
given
the
location
of
it
and
what's
already
happened,
I
think
it
is
you
know-
is
partial
to
this
kind
of
vandalism.
D
D
That's
launching
rocky
mountain
power,
just
in
the
last
month,
has
announced
that
they
are
in
the
process
of
slowly
decommissioning
this
power
plant,
that's
just
across
the
river
to
the
north
and
west
of
this
property.
There
are
other
properties
for
sale
around
this
and
just
recently,
the
state
fair
park
also
announced
the
release
of
an
rfp
to
find
a
developer
to
develop
the
white
ball
field,
which
is
the
property
just
to
the
north
of
the
railroad
tracks
from
the
fisher
mansion.
D
So
I
know
this
property
has
been
in
an
industrial
area
for
quite
some
time
and
I'm
hopeful
to
see
over
the
next
decade
that
this
area
might
really
transition
into
a
real,
really
amazing
center
for
activity
for
urban
neighborhood,
restoration
of
and
daylighting
of
city
creek
and
the
folsom
creek
and
trail
corridor.
It's
just
a
real
hub
of
future
activity
and
preserving
this
structure.
While
that
happens,
I
think,
is
really
important
to
its
future.
H
A
E
Yeah
just
echo
what
soren
said.
I
think
this
solution
that
we
have
for
this,
the
the
great
thing
about
it
is
that
it's
not
a
permanent
solution.
So
you
know
the
goal:
is
that
one
day
that
this
won't
be
needed?
That's
kind
of
the
ideal
situation,
but
I
think
until
then
you
know
just
making
sure
no
further
variation
to
the
facades
of
the
carriage
house
is
kind
of
our
main
priority.
So
I'll
leave
it
at
that.
Unless
tyler
has
anything,
he
wants
to
add.
A
A
G
G
B
Okay,
I
want
a
quick
discussion
first,
and
that
is
I'm
wondering
if
we
should
expand
this
motion
a
little
bit
to
encompass
the
entire
property
rather
than
just
this
one
accessory
building.
If
the
other
commissioners
would
feel
comfortable
with
allowing
the
city
at
its
discretion
to
use
similar
coatings
on
all
buildings.
On
this
parcel.
A
B
Oh
okay,
to
paul's
point
that
the
agenda
does
say
fisher
mansion
carriage
house,
to
which
end,
based
on
the
analysis
and
findings
listed
in
the
staff
report.
The
information
presented
the
input
received
during
our
public
hearing.
I
move
that
the
commission
approved
petition
number
pln
hlc
2020-509
for
a
request
for
a
certificate
of
appropriate
for
the
major
alteration
which
is
a
chemical
coding
of
the
carriage
house
structure
at
1206,
west
200,
south.
A
A
B
A
A
C
N
So
this
is
a
project
at
1362,
harvard
avenue,
dean
and
essie,
who
is
landscape
designer
on
behalf
of
the
property
owners
joan
hammond
and
joe
dick,
mr
dick
will
be
speaking
with
us.
I
see
him
on
the
screen.
There
is
requesting
approval
from
the
city
for
sight,
grading
landscaping
in
a
20-inch
high
stone
veneer
wall,
which
was
installed
at
the
front
yard
at
this
house
without
a
certificate
of
appropriateness
and
it's
a
contributing
building
between
the
salt
lake
city,
harvard
heights
historic
district
and
it's
owned.
R1
7000,
single
family,
residential.
N
N
It
is
a
portion
of
the
original
normandy
heights
subdivision,
which
was
created
in
1926,
and
you
can
see
the
the
building
here
there
are
at
the
time
of
designation.
There
were
46
buildings
of
which
42
were
considered,
contributing
to
the
district,
so
they're,
mostly
period
revival
style
fairly
large
stately
homes.
N
This
is
this
is
the
the
home
here.
It's
typical.
It
was
built
in
1928
and
shows
a
lot
of
the
the
revival
style,
architecture,
details
that
are
typical
of
the
building.
It's
it's
important
to
note
here
that
there
were
this.
This
project
did
come
in
for
several
approvals
and
several
special
exceptions,
and
so
the
the
work
really
is
at
issue
here
is
only
the
work
that
was
done
in
the
front
yard.
N
That's
that's
a
current
view
with
the
the
wall
in
the
front
that
was
installed.
Originally,
you
can't
really.
We
didn't
have
any
the
four
photos
that
showed
the
slope
very
well,
but
as
part
of
the
design
of
this
subdivision,
there
was
a
build
to
line
and
the
deed
restrictions
called
out
for
a
kind
of
sloping,
gradual
slope
from
the
front
wall
or
the
porch
of
the
house
down
to
the
sidewalk,
and
that's
happened
in
a
number
of
places
around.
N
The
stock
work
order
remained
on
the
property.
The
planning
staff
visited
the
the
site
on
september
11th
and
and
determined
that
it
would
not
meet
standards
from
the
applicant
and
said
that
if
it
went
to
the
commission
there
would
be
a
denial,
a
potential
denial
and
a
recommendation
from
the
staff
for
denial.
N
John
apparently
worked
continued
and
there
was
another
complaint
called
in
by
october
12th,
another
inspector
returned,
and
at
that
point
the
work
was
essentially
complete.
So
we're
looking
at
a
complete
project
now,
which
is
has
benefits,
so
you
can
see
the
effect
and
make
that
decision
on
your
own.
We
have
photos
here,
but
give
you
a
little
bit
of
context
here.
As
I
said,
it's
part
of
normandy
heights
subdivision.
A
lot
is
noticed
there.
N
It's
on
harvard
avenue
across
the
street
is
normandy
circle,
which
is
a
separate
local,
historic
district
within
the
larger
yale,
crest,
national,
historic
district,
and
you
can
see
here
from
the
historic
photo.
This
was
actually
taken
further
east
than
the
subject
property.
But
you
know
there
was
a
pattern
of
these
sloping
yards
going
up
from
the
street
up
to
the
front
of
the
house,
and
that
was
that
was
intentionally
designed
into
the
design
of
the
the
subdivisions
when
it
was
created.
N
N
N
N
N
N
This
is
now
looking
more
west.
You
can
see
again
the
same
slow,
especially
in
the
in
the
bottom
photos.
You
see,
as
you
look
down
toward
there's
a
there's
kind
of
a
uniform
slope
along
around
that
now.
That
is
not
to
say
that
there
aren't
other
examples,
even
within
the
district
nearby
across
the
street,
that
are
have
changed
this
pattern
over
the
course
of
time.
N
N
N
The
residential
design
guidelines,
again
talk
about
being
site,
features
that
the
existing
grade
of
the
the
site
should
be
retained,
retaining
walls
that
interrupt
that
historic
grade
are
not
appropriate,
and
so
in
our
findings
there
were.
We
found
that
there
were
conflicts
of
five
of
the
findings.
That's
in
the
the
attachment.
N
So
our
recommendation
here
is
is
based
purely
on
on
the
design
guidelines
and
the
standards.
These
our
opinion
that
those
proposals
don't
meet
the
objectives
of
those
standards,
clearly
design
standards,
two
five,
eight
and
nine
and
the
the
design
guidelines
is
listed
in
the
staff
report.
We
would
recommend
that
the
historic
landmark
commission
deny
the
certificate
of
appropriateness
for
the
landscaping.
N
A
G
G
So,
given
that
he's,
they
have
already
put
in
this
small
fence
for
lack
of
a
better
term.
What
would
be
what
would
happen
next?
If
we
denied
this,
would
we
make
them
tear
it
out?
Would
they
have
to
cut
it
in
half?
What
are
the
options
here?
I
want
to
see
it
being
my
first
meeting
here.
What
would
be
happening
when,
if
we
were
to
deny
this
based
on
the
staff
recommendation.
N
Well,
it's
it's
an
unfortunate
situation
in
that
continued
after
it
was
initially
brought
to
the
attention
of
the
contractor
and
and
the
city
when,
when
the
work
was
initially,
I
guess
flagged
or
stopped
the
the
wall
wasn't
completed.
At
that
time
there
we
had
parts
of
the
application
that
show
it
was
just
a
foundation,
cinder
block
foundation.
At
that
point,
so
the
I.
I
would
guess
that,
based
on
the
standards,
they
would
need
to
remove
the
wall
and
regrade
the
property.
N
We
chose
not
to
get
too
involved
in
that
because
he
seems
to
have
a
pretty
good
grasp
of
them
and
I
I
don't
and
climbing
staff
doesn't
so
that
would
we
would
want
to
address
his
concerns
in
a
solution
and,
and
that
may
be
removing
the
wall
if
it
were
to
retain
some
some
sort
of
wall
or
something
like
that,
we
would
probably
bring
it
back
to
the
condition
that
we
would
be
looking
for
a
restoration
of
the
original
grade.
I
guess.
I
N
I
N
I
N
N
The
legislature
changed
parts
of
state
code
that
involved
this
and
eventually
the
city
settled
on
a
district
designation
process
where
it
was
focused
on
much
smaller
pieces
of
that
original,
yale,
crest
neighborhood.
So
this
this
neighborhood
organization
had
to
pass
a
fairly
high
bar
of
support
for
this
particular
historic
district.
N
M
N
M
N
J
N
N
J
O
O
H
H
O
So,
just
a
bit
of
a
brief
history
on
how
we
got
into
the
neighborhood,
so
you
know
joan,
and
I
my
wife-
we
were
living
at
1362
princeton.
So
it's
very
close
to
the
to
the
project
area
and
you
know,
took
the
opportunity
to
purchase
the
home
in
in
april
of
2018
and
have
been
through
a
reasonably
extensive
process
on
kind
of
the
the
renovation.
O
If
you
will
of
the
home-
and
you
know,
have
been
through
several
a
certificate
of
appro
of
appropriateness,
amended
certificate,
second
amended
certificate
and
then
and
and
then
a
landscape
certificate
for
the
for
the
backyard.
And
we
got
started
in
the
this
landscaping
at
about
the
12th
of
august
and
substantial
construction
was
complete
on
both
the
home
and
the
land.
O
The
front
wall,
landscape
about
september,
10th
and
and-
and
you
know
in
that
it
was
difficult
at
the
time
kind
of
understand
what
was
going
on
as
there
was
no
real
face-to-face
meetings.
And
when
I
received,
I
received
a
letter
that
on
august
27th,
I
believe
and
gave
it
to
the
contractor
at
that
time.
So
I
was
kind
of
the
first
formal
notification
that
I
had
that
that
we
that
we
had
an
issue
and
I
provided
that
to
the
contract.
He
said.
O
O
You
can
read
the
list,
but
we've
had
you
know
good
support
from
the
team
and
we
chose
them
basically
on
their
experience
in
the
neighborhood
and
and
work
that
they
had
done
and
understanding
of
the
of
the
the
rules,
the
codes
and
you
know-
and
I
think
we
got
good
and
and
and
essentially
you
know
what
annie
told
us
at
the
beginning
of
the
project
and
and
as
we
began
to
make
applications
that
she
said.
You
know
this
is
pretty
simple
joe.
O
O
O
So
you
know
it
was
on
our
minds
from
early
on
in
the
project
that
that
something
had
to
be
done
and,
as
we
kind
of
give
you
it
give
you
kind
of
a
sense
of
what
that
looked
like.
And
if
you
recall
from
the
original
picture
that
nelson
had
showed
that
the
house
was
slightly
different
in
the
front.
But
that
was
the
problem
was.
Is
there
was
foundation
issues
there
and
and
settlement?
O
You
can
kind
of
see
on
on
the
picture
on
the
side
that
that
the
door
frame
is
in
square,
but
that's
kind
of
the,
and
that
dip
angle
is,
is
the
angle
that
the
house
is
sloping,
so
you
know
from
from
east
to
west
and
from
south
to
north,
and
you
know
you
can
see
you
can
see
that,
what's
termed
as
a
wall
there,
what
it
would,
what
it
is
really
in
practice
is
an
elevated
french
drain.
It's
in
the
in
in
what
we,
what
we
had
done
was
just
a
couple
more
photos.
O
This
is
the
this
is
the
west
wall
and
you
can
see
exterior
wall.
You
can
see
that
that
it
begins
to
kind
of
dip
away
from
the
square
structure
as
we
kind
of
caught
up
and
and
reinforced
the
the
structure
from
the
inside.
So
there
there
was.
You
know
some
issues
we
knew
we
had
a
to
deal
with
the
problem
there,
or
you
know.
I
can't
say
that
that
we
were
sure
that
the
settlement
was
continuing,
but
we
weren't
sure
that
it
wasn't,
and
so
you
know
our
view
was
number
one.
O
So
in
the
back
of
the
house
which,
which
we
did
put
in
a
letter
of
appropriate
or
a
certificate
of
appropriateness,
was
granted,
there
was
an
existing
wood
structure,
kind
of
retaining
the
the
slope
and
that
had
rotted
out
and,
and
so
the
water
was
moving
kind
of
straight
through
the
property.
Well,
we
we
reconstructed
that
with
drains
so
that
we
could
move
the
water
around
the
property,
and
then
we
picked
up
all
of
the
downspouts
and
pipe
them
out
into
the
front
lawn.
O
So
we
brought
everything
that
we
could
to
the
front
lawn
and
then
our
our
thinking
was
to
move
that
down
downstream,
rather
than
continuing
it
out
into
the
sidewalk
where
we
had
obvious
settlement
and-
and
then
potentially
you
know,
it's
running
a
courseway
very
close
to
where
our
sewer
line
installation
was.
We
didn't
want
to
see
us
end
up
with
additional
potholes
and
other
problems
in
the
street,
which
is
kind
of
evident
from
you
know,
water
that
potentially
might
not
manage
the
best
way
in
the
neighborhood
at
some
time.
O
So
so
that
was
the
solution
and
when
we,
when
we,
when
we
bring
everything
around
the
house
without
attenuation
of
you,
know,
moving
through
the
soils,
we're
getting
a
lot
more
water
out
front
quickly,
which
which
potentially
we
solved.
One
problem,
but
maybe
we
exasperated
another
and
and
the
attempt
when
we
got
into
landscaping,
was
to
solve
that.
And
you
know,
as
a
homeowner,
you
have
a
little
bit
of
an
issue
around
liabilities
and
things
that
come
with
sidewalks
and
you
know
maintaining
public
safety.
O
So
you
know
those
kind
of
things
were
on
our
mind.
You
know
if
you
kind
of
look
back
to
the
house,
and-
and
you
know
we
we
feel
like
we-
we
did
a
lot
of
work
to
kind
of
improve
the
integrity
of
the
structure
for
going
forward
for
time
and
and-
and
I
think
that
we
also
did
a
a
pretty
good
job
of
managing
the
water
between
our
neighbors
to
the
east
and
the
west.
O
So
we
we
actually
kind
of
did
the
same
thing
to
keep
the
water
coming
in
from
the
east
neighbor,
and
then
we
made
certain
that
we
weren't
passing
any
problem
downstream.
So
so
we
also
worked
with
our
neighbor
to
the
to
the
west
to
improve,
and
then
there
was
a
bit
of
evidence
of
erosion
and,
and
that
kind
of
thing
so
we'd
work
together
to
to
solve
it.
And
so
what
what
you
know
when
we,
when
we
got
to
a
potential
solution
that
that
wall
retaining
wall
really
isn't
retaining
anything?
O
It
is
it's
basically
a
front
for
a
drain
that
moves
the
prop
that
moves
water
coming
around
the
house
from
east
to
west
and
and
that
that
wall
it
would.
You
know
the
landscaping
plan
would
anticipate.
You
know
some
kind
of
a
ground
cover,
so
so
you
would.
We
tried
to
keep
as
much
slope
as
we
could
and
we
would
put
a
vine
or
a
green
crown
over,
so
it
would
have
a
very
similar
type
view.
O
Then
did
we
do?
What
did
what
we
have
done
or
chose
was
appropriate
and
we
looked
about
the
neighborhood
and
tried
to
get
something
that
kind
of
fit
the
scheme
of
the
neighborhood
and
old
world
stone
was
what
we
chose
and
and
as
as
mr
knight
mentioned,
the
specifications
provided
by
the
the
contractor
and
landscaper
have
are
in
earlier
submissions
and
and
and
that's
what
the
staff
report
is
based
on,
without
really
kind
of
a
a
better
understanding
of
the
problem
or
the
rationale
for
it.
O
You
know
when
you
know,
assuming
whatever
happens
here,
if
we
elevate
the
sidewalk
back
to
kind
of
where
it
was
originally
it's
about
from
one
end
about
three
inches
in
the
center
about
six
inches.
That
would
come
up
in
the
far
end,
a
couple
inches
where
it
has
subsided,
and
so
a
bit
of
the
wall
would
disappear
and
and
the
vine
cover
or
landscape
cover
it
would
essentially
disappear.
O
O
So
you
know
I
I
guess
to
summarize,
you
know
a
bit
embarrassed
about
the
fact
that
we
we
have,
you
know,
worked
pretty
closely
in
certificates
of
appropriateness
over
a
long
period
of
time
and
got
a
miscommunication
on
on
this
one
and
somewhat
somewhat
driven
by
covet
and
inability
to
get
face-to-face
meetings.
And
that
kind
of
thing-
and
so
you
know
we
certainly
you
know,
respect
the
idea
that
of
the
commission
there
were,
you
know,
we've
chose
we
chose
to
live
in
the
neighborhood.
We
we
know
what
the
the
requirements
are.
O
O
The
the
the
work
inside
the
home
to
kind
of
you
can
imagine
with
that
kind
of
settlement.
What
we
might
have
went
through
on
the
inside
of
the
home,
on
lots
of
modifications
or
ways
to
level
floors
and,
and
do
that
kind
of
thing
so
and
we're
committed
to
you
know
doing
the
right
thing
in
the
neighborhood.
You
know
jones
daughters
live
just
on
the
other
side
of
the
of
1300.
O
We're
we're
here
for
the
long
term,
and
you
know
certainly
want
to
you
know,
be
considered
a
good
neighbor
to
everyone
in
the
in
in
the
area,
and
you
know,
we've
we've
attempted
to
do
that.
So
yeah,
if
there's
any
questions
for
me,
I'll
attempt
to
answer
them,
if
not,
you
know
that's
kind
of
that's
how
we
ended
up
where
we
were
and
apologize
for
the
miscommunications.
O
We
do
feel
that
there
is
an
issue
with
how
the
water
moves
across
the
sidewalk
and
there
is
a
potential
future
issue
with
with
how
that
might
affect.
You
know
the
the
street
along
the
sewer
line
that
we
had
to
replace
and
we
met.
We
met
compaction
standards
and
everything
else,
but
you
know
water
over
time
does
significant
things
and
in
my
career
I
deli
I've
dealt
with
many
type
of
settlement
issues.
O
I'm
not
I'm
not
an
expert
but
empirical
knowledge
from
problems
encountered
in
my
work,
a
mining
engineer
and
I
work
work
in
locations
around
the
world
and
have
encountered
this
kind
of
thing,
and
you
know
it
always
comes
down
to
the
water.
So
thank
you
for
the
opportunity
to
present
and
I
I
appreciate
that.
A
Thank
you,
mr
dick.
That
presentation
is
really
helpful
to
get
a
bigger
picture
of
the
of
the
project.
Maybe
I'll
start
out
with
one
question.
If
I
understand
right,
the
your
wall
is
intended
to
divert
the
water
downhill,
I
guess
towards
the
west.
What
keeps
that
water
that
you've
diverted
there
from
going
onto
the
neighbors
property.
O
Well,
there's
a
it
it.
So,
first
of
all,
you
know
along
the
west
property
boundary.
We
work
that
with
a
neighbor
and
improve
the
soil
retention.
So
we
put
work
with
him
to
match
the
things
along
the
property
line,
so
it
fit
with
his
landscape.
And
then
we
have
a
drain
hose
we're
trying
to
attempting
on
both
sides
of
the
property,
to
hit
the
driveway
spill
away
out
rather
than
come
under
the
sidewalk
or
through
the
sidewalk.
So
we're
going
out
of
the
driveways
on
both
on
both
sides.
A
A
H
D
Thank
you.
So
I
just
have
a
couple
of
comments.
We
are
joe
and
jones
immediate
west
neighbors,
and
wanted
to
comment
that
they
have
been
incredibly
respectful
of
the
property
in
throughout
the
preservation
process.
So
the
renovation
process
has
been
very
respectful
of
the
1928
property
that
they
own
the
slope.
If
you
are
questioning
the
slope,
you
should
actually
come
by
the
site.
D
I
don't
think
that
this
is
anything
that
is
different
or
crazy
in
terms
of
a
1928
property,
but
I
think
the
thing
that
we
most
appreciate
is
the
water
barrier
aspect
of
this.
So
neil
and
I
renovated
our
house
about
three
years
ago
and
had
major
water
issues
like
a
bobcat
sunk
into
our
driveway
in
the
process
of
renovating
our
home,
and
so
what
joan
and
joe
have
done
is
basically
created
this
barrier
that
takes
stuff
out
and
makes
it
so
that
it's
not
going
to
come
into
our
yard.
P
Can
hear
you
cindy?
Oh,
wonderful,
wonderful,
okay,
I'm
not
going
to
present
a
solution.
Unfortunately,
I'm
just
going
to
try
to
articulate
once
again
the
issue
of
historical
landscapes
as
context.
So
the
question
is
whether
I
will
live
long
enough
to
see
on
a
recognition
that
landscapes
are
part
of
the
historical
context.
I
have
now
been
working
on
this
for
something
like
20
years.
I
think,
from
my
perspective,
there's
a
disconnect
between
the
materials
in
the
wall
and
the
house.
P
P
H
So
we
have
two
other
attendees.
I
know
at
least
one
of
them
looks
like
they're
with
the
applicant,
but
I'm
going
to
see-
and
I
know
once
submitted
some
written
comments,
but
I
wanted
to
see
if
this
person
wanted
to
speak
is
too
as
well.
When
pershing
I'm
gonna
unmute
you.
If
you
would
like
to
to
speak,
you're
unmuted.
D
Oh
okay,
I'm
familiar
with
french
drains
and
I've
french
drains
are
often
put
around
foundations.
French
drains
can
also
be
put
in
the
yard
for
increased
drainage,
and
so
I
was
I
I
was
curious
why
the
lamp
the
20-inch
wall,
I
think
I
think
french
drains
could
have
been
stalled
in
the
yard
without
having
to
erect
a
wall,
so
I
would
like
to.
I
would
like
to
hear
some
some
discussion
on
that.
Thank
you.
H
H
D
N
H
A
C
Pardon
me
this
is
michaela.
I
forwarded
the
commission,
an
email
that
came
in
after
five
o'clock
for
some
reason
it
wasn't
able
to
be
put
in
your
dropbox,
and
I
wrote
the
applicant
back
and
said
I
to
make
sure
that
you
all
got.
It
is
danielle
wolf
and
she
just
said
I'm
writing
in
support
of
the
beautiful
wall
erected
at
1365,
harvard
avenue
as
a
neighbor.
I'm
weird
I've
watched
this
beautiful
restoration
of
this
regal
home
on
harvard
from
the
beginning
and
believe
that
it
fits
the
neighborhood
physically.
Thank
you.
O
O
O
You
know
so
the
the
backyard
is
is
basically
all
hardscape
and
stone,
so
we're
bringing
all
of
that
forward,
and
so
my
concern
was
that
we
were
potentially
going
to
make
the
situation
that
we
had
out
front
worse.
You
know,
you
know
you
got
to
think
about
public
safety
and
and
in
the
roadways.
So
that's
that
was
it.
The
other
option
was
was
below
grade
and
if
we
pulled
it
back
closer
to
the
house,
that
was
the
other
concern.
A
G
You
know
a
cock-up
is
a
sharp
stone
placed
like
this
all
along
the
fence
so
that
the
bull
would
get
caught
in
his
bits
and
not
go
to
the
next
field.
That
is
that
era
in
that
area
in
england
and
ireland
and
all
of
those
places.
So
that
made
me
laugh
that
there
was
no
up
there.
This
is
really
hard
because
I
agree
with
the
staff-
and
I
agree
with
his
drainage
there
as
well,
and
that
across
the
street
are
all
of
these
defenses.
G
A
J
J
J
I
wish
at
the
time
that
that
the
first
order
was
noted
that
that
that
a
an
alternate
design
that
may
have
been
halfway
between
what
was
done,
and
I
fully
understand
that
the
print
strain
is
right
behind
the
wall
and
and
it
empties
at
the
driveway
that
that
makes
sense.
I
get
it,
and
so,
if
it
was
any
lower
than
that,
then
there's
no
place
for
it
to
drain
to
so
I'm
just
I'm
torn.
Let's
just
put
it
that
way.
F
F
It's
always
tough
because
you
know-
maybe
we
wouldn't
have
approved
this
if
it
come
to
us
before,
just
because
I,
like
the
continuity,
on
the
other
hand,
as
mike
points
out
it's
in
these
areas,
this
old,
it's
never
perfect
to
be
complied
with
anyway,
and
the
kind
of
effort
and
quality
and
expense
that
went
into
this.
You
hate
it's
almost
like
you,
you
you
hate
to
not
approve
it.
You
you
don't
like
it.
When
people
go,
do
things
without
permits,
because
then
you
know
how
do
we?
F
How
do
we
president's
not
good
that
people
think
well
I'll
get
away
with
it?
If
I
don't
get
a
permit,
but
I
don't
think
there's
any
intent
here
to
do
that
and-
and
I
would
probably
approve
it
even
though
staff
recommends
we
don't-
I
just
don't
think
the
remedy
of
taking
it
out
justifies
you
know,
was
comfortable
with
the
sun,
but
but
I
just
it's
a
balancing
act
and
it's
there's
a
good
case
on
both
sides.
But
in
the
end,
when
we're
done
I'd,
probably
I'd
probably
approve
it.
I
Yeah
I
want
to
start
by
commending
the
applicant
on
the
overall
preservation
of
this
house.
It's
a
beautiful
house
and
a
in
a
beautiful
neighborhood,
and
I
think
they
did
an
amazing
job
that
that
said,
the
landscape
is
a
character,
defining
feature
of
the
property
and-
and
you
know,
hearing
nelson
talk
about
how
this
was
really
written
into
some
of
the
covents
and
deed
restrictions
and
stuff.
On
on
the
original
subdivision
to
me,
really
hammers
that
home
and.
I
I
think
you
know
it.
I
think
aiden
made
the
best
point
when
she
asked
you
know
we're
talking
about
these
other
retaining
walls
in
the
neighborhood,
but
those
were
all
approved.
You
know
they
didn't
require
approval
because
they
were
built
before
this
was
a
local,
historic
district.
So
that's
before
that
was
even
in
our
jurisdiction.
So
to
to
me,
now
is
the
time
to
start.
I
You
know,
discouraging
these
kind
of
retaining
walls,
even
if
they've
been
built
over
the
last
couple
of
decades
like
if,
if
this
became
a
local
historic
district
in
the
last
five
years-
and
this
is
the
first
retaining
wall
to
be
built-
we
should
probably
nip
that
in
but
now,
rather
than
having
a
bunch
of
these
kind
of
cases
coming
up
in
the
future.
So
that's
kind
of
my
take,
I
think
yeah,
obviously
like
procedurally,
if
it
had
been
done
more
by
the
book,
this
wouldn't
have
happened.
I
M
M
A
Good,
thank
you
I'll,
throw
in
my
two
cents
here,
so
I
I
slowly
rode
my
bike
down
the
down
harvard
this
morning.
Looking
around,
I
had
not
yet
thoroughly
read
the
staff
report
and
I
wrote
down,
saw
the
other
houses
saw.
The
wall
in
question
saw
the
other
walls
around
there
and
I
my
thought
then
was:
what's
the
big
deal
it
fits
in
it.
It
is
subtle.
The
house
is
really
well
restored
and
then
moved
on
and
came
down
to
work
and
read.
A
Read
through
the
staff
report
heard
nelson's
nelson's
report
and
clearly
the
the
wall
is
contradicting
the
letter
of
the
law.
If
you
will
but
hearing
hearing
the
applicant's
story
looking
at
how
diligently
they
work
through
the
historic
process
and
getting
their
coas
multiple
times
for
other
things,
you
know
they
clearly
didn't.
A
They
clearly
intended
to
try
to
comply
by
the
rules
in
all
the
cases
that
they
they
knew
of
and
this
this
fell
between
the
cracks
I
was
going
to
ask
before
I
prompted
heard
all
your
comments.
Would
we
be
looking
at
this
differently
if
it
hadn't
been
built
yet,
and
this
wall
was
proposed
and
clearly
a
couple
of
you
have
have
said
that
they
wouldn't
have
gone
for
this
solution
and
that's,
I
think,
that's
valid.
A
But
for
me
it's
not
a
slam
dunk
that
this
doesn't
look
right
and
should
be
pulled.
I
guess
my
if
it
was
the
only
retaining
wall
in
the
neighborhood
and
would
stick
out
like
a
sore
thumb
and
be
an
obvious
element
that
someone
else
would
say.
Oh
look,
that's
the
only
one
here.
Maybe
I
can
sneak
by
and
do
my
own.
A
G
A
Yes,
it
did
with
an
asterisk
after
that,
yes,
because,
as
david
pointed
out,
that
we
are
not
a
civil
engineering
review
board,
so
we
can't
really
make
a
decision
based
on
that,
but
yeah
it
all
made
sense.
You
know
I've
been
down
that
street
in
the
rain
and
it's
an
issue
and
also
talking
architecturally,
I
I
would
agree
with
someone
might
have
been
cindy
cromer
who
said
the
wall
didn't
look
quite
right
with
that
building,
and
you
know
I
I
like
the
idea
of
the
vine.
B
A
B
B
The
removal
of
historic
materials
or
alteration
of
features
and
spaces
that
characterize
a
property
shall
be
avoided
and
I'm
having
a
tough
time
with
that
one
number,
five
distinctive.
Can
you
guys
hear
me
better
now,
number
five
distinctive
features
finishes
and
construction
techniques.
Your
examples
of
craftsmanship
that
characterize
a
historic
property
shall
be
preserved.
B
The
next
two
I
think
there
there
may
be.
There's
some
workarounds,
eight
contemporary
designs
for
alterations
and
additions
to
existing
properties
shall
not
be
discouraged.
Blah
blah,
blah
and
joining
is
additions
or
alterations
to
structures
and
objects
should
be
done
in
such
a
manner
that
if
those
additions
or
alterations
were
to
be
removed,
the
essential
form
of
integrity
remains
so
and
you'll
notice.
I
think
that's
we
could
probably
find
a
way
around
those,
but
I
I
just
had
a
good
tough
time
with
two
with
the
two
and
five.
B
D
A
M
My
thoughtful
look
was
I
just
wanted
to
maybe
read
before
we
make
our
decision
read
one
of
the
standards
that
david's
having
a
hard
time
with
just
I'm
not
sure
if
all
the
commissioners
were
able
to
read
through
the
analysis
of
all
of
these
standards.
So
is
it?
Okay,
if
I
just
read
a
section
from
standard
two,
just
to
reiterate
kind
of
what
we're
looking
at
yeah,
please.
M
The
removal
of
historic
materials
or
alteration
of
features
and
spaces
that
characterize
a
property
shall
be
avoided,
which
was
the
first
one
that
david
read
so
the
objectives
from
a
preservation
handbook
for
historic
residential
properties
in
districts
in
salt
lake
city.
There
are
a
few
listed
and
the
analysis
is
in
addition
to
the
historic
structures.
The
harvard
heights
historic
district
is
enhanced
by
visual
components
that
are
important
in
the
cohesive
streetscapes,
including
tree-lined
sidewalks,
uniform
setbacks
and
a
substantial
variation
in
topography.
M
Typography.
Sorry
yards
incline
uniformly
from
front
porch
to
sidewalk
along
the
south
side
of
harvard
avenue,
reflecting
the
original
design
of
the
subdivision
in
which
the
harvard
heights
historic
district
is
contained.
The
historic
greeting
provides
a
unifying
visual
cohesiveness
to
the
streetscape
and
is
character-defining.
M
This
historic
reading
pattern
is
an
important
characteristic
of
the
harvard
heights
historic
district
that
should
be
retained.
So
I
just
wanted
to
reiterate
that
to
you
all
just
as
a
comment
in
the
decision-making
process,
because,
although,
as
we've
been
told
by
a
public
call,
there
is
still
a
gradient.
M
G
D
K
F
This
stuff's
fairly
subjective,
as
we
all
know
and
we've
dealt,
we
don't
deal
with
landscaping
very
often
right,
I'm
not
saying
it's
not
part
of
it,
but
I
don't
know
that
it's
the
same.
I
mean
these
houses
have
been
there
for
80
years
70
80
years,
and
it
doesn't
landscapes,
get
changed
in
all
these
houses
and
I
I
agree.
There's
I
understand
the
gradient
and
the
look
that's
there,
but
I
would
argue:
that's
largely
still
there
I
mean
it's
not
the
same
setbacks.
F
You
still
have
the
yard
still
slopes,
it
doesn't
slope
as
much
because
they
put
a
small
wall
at
the
front.
You
know
the
one
right
across
the
street
has
a
wall
significantly
higher
and
much
more
offensive
to
it,
and
I
guess,
when
there's
exceptions,
there's
exceptions
and
you
know
I
guess
I
would
argue-
it's
not
doesn't
violate
the
overall
spirit
of
preserving
the
landscaping
to
to
to
have
a
small
wall
there
it
still
slopes
down.
F
It
still
has
a
lot
of
the
features
so
anyway,
I
just
think
you
know
it's
a
matter
of
degree,
and
I
just
don't
know
that
you
know,
and
I
know
we
don't
get
it-
we
don't
get
into
cost,
but
it's
a
crazy
amount
of
cost
to
redo
this,
and
and
that's
not
that
you
know
that
can't
be
a
driving
factor,
but
it's
still
a
factor
out
there.
When
you
look
at
what
everyone's
done
to
all
these
houses
over
the
last
80
think
the
general
character
is
still
there.
G
B
A
C
A
A
A
A
J
Sir,
please
don't
mind,
but
I
think
that-
and
I
know
I'm
an
architect
and
it's
hard
not
to
design
something,
but
I
think
that
there
is
a
middle
ground
and
I
think
that
there
is
a
way
to
modify
the
landscape
to
to
accommodate
the
wall.
That's
there
and
and
to
you
know,
to
robert's
point
and
to
david's
point.
This
is
not
an
inexpensive
wall,
but
there's
a
way
to
to
add
landscape
that,
I
think,
would
visually
lessen
the
impact
of
the
wall.
J
I
would
assume
that
the
the
french
drain
is
something
on
the
order
of
maybe
eight
to
ten
inches.
So
that's
half
the
height
of
the
wall.
It
leaves
another
ten
inches
or
so
above
the
wall
that
that
something
can
be
planted
that
that,
as
in
the
street
or
as
in
the
home
across
the
street,
you
know
where,
where
the
greenery
can
can
you
know
dive
over
the
wall
and-
and
you
know
at
a
glance-
it's
green
from
the
sidewalk
to
the
house.
A
J
A
C
Yeah,
I
think
so
I
think
we'd
have
to
approve
with
conditions,
but
I
mean
listening
to
the
conversation
tonight
I
mean
yes,
this
is
an
enforcement
case
and
I
don't
want
the
commission
to
feel.
Like
you
know,
planning
comes
in
with
we
come
in
with
our
most
technical
analysis
and
it's
it's
up
to
the
commission
to
either
go
with
what
the
staff
reports
or
or
find
that
middle
ground
and
go
ahead
and
approve
it.
This
one
is
a
hard
one,
because
this
isn't
a
six
foot
wall
that
was
built.
C
A
C
It's
okay!
It's
okay!
I
think
I
was
was
finishing.
The
thought
was,
although
this
is
an
enforcement
case,
I
you
know.
I
want
the
commission
to
treat
it
as
though
it
was
coming
in
as
a
coa
and
something
new.
We
certainly
we
don't
want
it's
either
appropriate
or
it's
not.
I
don't
want
the
commission
or
the
public
to
feel
like
enforcement
case.
We
hold
you
to
every
single
standard
perfectly
and
like
a
higher
standard.
F
I
like
I'd,
like
I
like
the
idea
of
what
mike
said
and
and
I'd,
I
think
I'd
rather
see
us
approve
it
with
conditions
and
the
conditions
can
be
what
mike
was
outlining,
rather
than
denying
it
with
let
them
come
back,
gets
us
to
the
same
place,
but
maybe
it's
easier
for
everybody.
If
we
go
the
approval
route.
C
F
J
Like
to
see
I'd
like
to
see
the
question,
then
we
would
we
would
be
asking
the
applicant
to.
We
would
approve
the
applicant
to
come
back
with
the
design
or
that
we
would
say
you
know
it
would
be.
It
would
be
improved
on
the
condition
that
that
the
landscaping
be
modified
to
to
as
much
as
possible
remain.
You
know
or
continue.
The
visual
continuity
of
the
grass
to
the
to
the
sidewalk
cover
the
the
base
of
the
wall.
Something
to
that
step.
J
What
we're
really
saying
is
we're
going
to
approve
this,
that
you
need
to
do
something
different.
You
need
to
to
modify
the
design
and
and
we
and
then
they
would
come
back
and
we
would
review
that
design
or
we
would
say
and
michaela
where
I
was
going
was
was
saying
you
know
this
is
we're
going
to
prove
it,
but
you
need
to
make
some
changes
go
ahead
and
work
with
with
the
commission
planning
staff
to
do
that.
But
what
you're
saying
is
you're
really
not
prepared
the
commission
planning
staff's
really
not
prepared
to
do
that.
C
B
F
So
so
dave
dave.
Let
me
let
me
ask
you
on
that
you're,
the
architect,
I'm
I'm
just
a
dirt
lawyer,
but
but
what
the
when
you
talk
about
historically
significant
sight
features
should
be
preserved.
I
mean
landscaping
on
80
year
old
houses.
I
mean
how?
How
much
can
you
mimic
how
they
were
landscaped
80
years
ago?
I
mean,
I
guess.
I
guess
that
this
short
wall
doesn't
strike
me
as
really
altering
it
that
drastically
to
fail
that
condition.
F
A
Approving
and
delegating
it
to
to
staff
to
figure
out
the
details.
I
think
we
probably
need
to
handle
this
ourselves
with
and
give
given
the
back
and
forth
discussion
here
so
kayla
and
paul
correct
me
if
I'm
wrong,
but
we
can
table
this
direct
the
applicant
to
do
some
specific
things
and
then
they
can
come
back
to
us
at
another
meeting
with
a
updated
proposal.
C
C
Because
because
it's
contentious
in
the
neighborhood
and
it's
an
enforcement
case-
and
there
are
a
number
of
folks
in
the
neighborhood
that
have
strong
feelings
about
it-
I'd
prefer
it
would
be
tabled
and
with
some
directions.
So
staff
can
work
with
the
applicant.
The
applicant
com
can
come
back
rather
than
approving
it,
just
delegating
all
the
final
details
to
staff,
because
if
other
folks
in
the
neighborhood
aren't
happy
with
staff's
final
details,
it's
just
going
to
be
appealed
and
sent
back
to
you,
regardless.
J
C
I
B
A
J
M
A
F
G
A
A
O
O
A
A
H
I
don't
know
if
I
can
switch
it
honestly
now
that
I'm
in
the
in
the
presentation
mode,
so
I'll
I'll
go
through
this
presentation
fairly,
quick
and
then
exit
out,
because
there's
no
real
need
to
keep
the
presentation
open
after
that.
But
this
is
a
proposal
that
we
have
requested
from
the
planning
division
to
remove
the
special
exception
process
from
our
code.
It's
a
pretty
sizable
change.
There's
42
different
special
exceptions
authorizing
our
zoning
ordinance.
H
The
key
takeaways
for
the
landmarks
commission
is
that
the
only
thing
that's
that's
changing
really
for
for
you
is
that,
instead
of
somebody
having
to
submit
a
special
exception
application
and
one
of
the
applications
required
for
the
h
overlay
now
they
only
would
have
to
submit
the
h
overlay
application.
The
landmarks
commission
retains
all
of
its
authority
that
it
currently
has
and
to
review
anything
within
the
within
the
overlay,
whether
it's
a
historic
district
or
a
landmark
site.
So
those
are
all
maintained.
H
H
All
these
kinds
of
things
right
now
are
listed
as
special
exceptions
when
they're
outside
of
a
certain
parameter
city-wide
about
85
percent
of
these
are
all
are
east
of
I-15.
The
two
busiest
districts
are
districts
three
in
districts.
Five
district
three
makes
sense
because
of
the
the
avenues
in
capitol
hill
and
when
those
were
developed
and
the
unique
nature
of
all
of
the
the
sloping
hillsides
and
the
the
small
lots
and
different
lot
sizes
and
shapes
and
all
those
kinds
of
things.
H
H
H
H
One
of
the
big
reasons
why
we're
doing
this
is
that
we
are
processing,
so
many
more
land
use
applications.
Now,
as
a
city
than
we
than
we
have
in
the
past,
our
workloads
haven't
been
able
to
keep
up,
and
so,
as
the
city
changes,
we
feel
like
some
of
our
processes
need
to
change
as
well,
so
that
we
can
focus
on
the
growth
related
issues
that
the
city's
facing,
instead
of
focusing
on
things
like
special
exceptions,
which
really
put
all
put
a
significant
portion
of
our
attention
on
individual
properties.
H
H
H
We
want
property
owners
to
do
the
right
thing
and
get
the
right
permits
and
if
fees
are
are,
if
they're,
if
we're
traveling,
the
fee
is
covering
the
full
cost
of
the
city
of
applying
that
the
likelihood
of
people
doing
work
outside
without
the
right
approvals
increases,
and
so,
but
we
don't
know
exactly
why
this
the
fee
schedule
that
the
city
has
established,
but
michaela's
been
dedicating
a
lot
of
time
to
analyzing
how
much
time
it's
taking
us
what
our
fees
are
and
what
the
appropriate
fee
should
be.
Okay,.
G
H
H
Getting
back
to
to
this
and
why
we're
proposing
this,
this
change.
We've
already
talked
about
the
staff
resource
and
the
geographic
application
of
city
resources,
but
this
also
accomplishes
a
number
of
other
things,
one.
It
simplifies
our
code.
We
have
so
many
exceptions
that
it's
often
times
very
difficult
for
us
to
explain
to
an
applicant
everything
that
needs
to
happen
and
what
their
options
are,
and
things
like
that.
H
It
also
is
very
challenging
for
us
when
people
complain
or
call
in
to
ask
questions
about
what's
going
on
next
door
or
in
the
neighborhood,
and
we
we
can't
give
yes
or
no
answers.
We
always
you
know,
we
have
to
say
well
normally
it's
this,
but
they
might
be
able
to
get
an
exception
to
do
this,
and
so
so
that
makes
it
hard.
It
also
creates
situations
where
neighbors
don't
know
what
to
expect
next
door,
and
this
creates
one
of
the
infamous
things
that
we
have
in
this
city,
the
neighbor
versus
neighbor.
H
We
heard
a
lot
of
you
know
pitting
neighbors
against
one
another,
because
we're
basically
asking
the
neighbor
to
help
us
identify
anything
that
may
be
wrong
with
what
someone's
proposing
next
door
we've.
We
do
feel
like
having
a
straightforward
zoning
regulation
is
way
more
appropriate
for
those
situations
so
that
people
do
know
what
to
expect
and
it
aligns
our
regulations
with
current
trends.
H
H
We
know
that
people
aren't
getting
the
right
kinds
of
approvals,
but
we
also
understand
that
there's
really
no
public
benefit
for
having
someone
go
through
a
process
for
something
like
that.
It
should
just
be
just
be
a
standard
property
right
and
that's
what
we're
proposing
so
key
changes.
We've
already
talked
about
the
historic
district,
bulk
modifications,
and
many
of
you
are
very
familiar
with
this.
H
This
still
would
be
allowed
through
our
existing
processes,
an
example
of
a
built,
in
addition
that
this
landmarks
commission
approved
in
the
in
the
avenues,
extra
height
and
some
different
setbacks.
I
believe
on
this
one
great
changes
in
retaining
walls
right
now.
The
anything
over
four
feet
requires
a
special
exception,
but
there's
no
cap
on
how
tall
any
exception
can
be,
and
so
the
picture
shows
the
right
way
to
do
this.
H
We
want
to
maintain
it
in
the
historic
districts,
because
we
do
believe
that
it
is
a
benefit
the
property
owners
get
for
being
within
a
historic
district.
They
they
have.
Some
different
bonuses
that
they
have,
they
have
the
ability
to
apply
for
that
other
properties.
Don't
this
is
also
one
that
happens
quite
a
bit
up
in
the
foothills
like
this
picture
shown
right
now.
H
That
went
through
a
special
exception,
that's
taller
than
everything
else
on
the
block
face,
and
where
is
it?
This
is
up
near
the
in
upper
federal
heights
near
the
university.
I
cannot
remember
the
name
of
that
that
street,
but
thank
you.
It's
one
that
that
provides
access
to
the
university
accessory
structure
height,
we're
not
really
changing
anything
by
right,
with
the
exception
of
we
are,
we
are
allowing,
and-
and
I
guess
I
shouldn't
say-
we
aren't
changing
anything
but
right
because
we
are-
and
this
this
slide
was
before.
H
We
briefed
the
planning
commission
on
this,
and
they
gave
us
some
guidance,
but
they
they
wanted
to
allow
some
additional
accessory
structure
height
up
to
a
certain
point,
and
so
we
are
allowing
it
to
go
right
now.
Most
accessory
buildings
have
to
be
17
feet
in
height,
there's
some
smaller
ones
and,
like
the
sr
lower
hikes
in
the
sr1a
district,
this
proposal
would
allow
it
to
be
taller
than
what's
allowed
in
the
underlying
zoning
district
up
to
75
percent
of
the
principal
building
height.
H
But
it
also
requires
an
increased
setback
on
a
one
foot
per
one:
foot
increase
in
height
basis.
The
planning
commission
also
recommended
that
we
put
a
that.
We
look
at
putting
a
cap
on
that
up
to
75
so
that
that
increase
ultimately
ended
up
being
about
a
25
total
increase.
So,
for
example,
if
you're
in
the
r1
5000
zoning
district,
your
your
garage
could
be
17
feet
in
height.
H
H
H
We
already
talked
about
this
about
using
accessory
buildings
for
other
other
types
of
things
that
are
pretty
common
within,
particularly
for
residential
uses,
but
this
also
happens
with
sometimes
commercial
uses
as
well.
So
there's
one
key
key
change:
the
inline
editions.
These
are
things
that
you
already
deal
with,
but
outside
of
historic
districts.
H
We've
really
struggled
with
some
of
these
things:
the
planning
commission.
This
is
probably
it's
one
of
the
the
top
special
exceptions
that
we
see
year
in
and
year
out
as
far
as
numbers-
and
it's
been
fairly
controversial,
particularly
when
there's
a
second
story
edition-
and
this
is
for
when
a
building
doesn't
meet
the
current
side,
yard
setbacks
mostly,
but
it
also
applies
to
front
and
rear,
and
so
this
proposal
puts
some
brackets
around.
H
In
a
situation
like
that
that
that
kind
of
cut
out
area
they
could
they
could
actually
expand
into
that
and
continue
that
building
line.
That's
what
what
we're
trying
to
do.
One
thing
that
we're
trying
to
avoid
is
the
picture
on
the
right
where
we
had
a.
This
is
a
special
exception
from
10
plus
years
ago
that
only
had
a
three
foot
side,
yard
setback
and
they
were
able
to
get
approval
for
adding
a
second
story.
H
So
there
would
be
some
brackets
about
how
much
that
that
side,
yard
wall
could
be
extended
by
a
percentage,
and
it
wouldn't
allow
the
second
story
to
encroach
if
there
was
a
second
story
edition.
That
second
story
would
have
to
me
be
set
back
of
meet
the
minimum
setbacks,
that's
a
little
bit
of
a
confusing
issue,
but
hopefully
that
helps
well.
A
lot
of
our
special
exceptions,
deal
with
non-complying
buildings
and
how
they're
expanded
and
how
they're
used
actually
and
so,
but
a
big.
A
big
chunk
of
these
changes.
H
Deal
with
this
and
and
rightfully
puts
them
in
the
non
non-conforming
and
non-complying
building
chapter,
for
example,
in
some
zones.
If
the
single
family
zone
isn't
allowed,
you
need
to
get
a
conditional
use
for
even
an
expansion
of
one
of
those
homes,
and
that
doesn't
make
much
sense.
And
so
it
would
be
things
like
that.
H
H
How
is
this
really
any
different
from
that?
But
they
recognize
that
that
it
does
have
an
impact
on
the
streetscape
and
so
there'd
be
some
limitations
on
this.
Obviously,
in
historic
districts,
it
would
require
a
certificate
of
appropriateness
as
well.
Most
of
the
which
it
does
now
and
most
of
those
are
actually
approved
at
the
staff
level.
Unless
there's
some
objection
or
we
find
some
reason
why
we
couldn't
approve
it
another.
H
You
need
to
find
a
way
to
accommodate
that,
and
it
has
to
be
in
a
location
that
the
utility
provider
can
access
and
serve
and
maintain.
It
can't
just
be
put
someplace
where
they
don't
have
options,
for
example,
if
you're
building
an
apartment
building,
you
need
to
have
a
transformer
someplace
more
than
likely
on
your
property.
H
But
the
big
thing
here
is
that
it's
making
it
very
difficult
for
us
to
do
just
about
anything
in
the
right-of-way,
whether
it's
conflicting
with
our
own
utilities,
planting
trees,
putting
bike
lanes
in
widening
sidewalks,
putting
street
lights
in
are
all
starting
to
be
negatively
impacted
by
these
these
giant
boxes.
There
would
still
be
some
that
are
allowed
if
it's
serving
the
broader
neighborhood,
so
telecommunication
types
of
things,
those
would
still
be
allowed
they're
considerably
smaller
than
these
boxes.
H
These
boxes
here
are
actually
the
largest
ones
that
we
see
and
they
they're
necessary
for
undergrounding
power.
So
when
the
power
goes
from
above
from
power
poles
to
being
underground,
there's
some
sort
of
a
box-
that's
needed
a
junction
box
for
that,
and
in
this
particular
case
they
were
put.
This
is
technically
not
in
a
right-of-way,
but
it's.
It
was
a
good
example
of
it's
on
a
private
street,
but
it's
a
good
example
of
of
what
these
look
like
and
the
probably
the
the
biggest
that
we'll
ever
see
type
of
thing.
H
So
that's
the
most
significant
change
in
all
of
this,
at
least
from
the
cities,
from
a
technical
perspective
with
the
city.
Just
a
quick
summary
of
the
community
input,
we've
received,
all
31
community
councils
and
recognized
organizations
have
received
copies
of
this.
We
reached
out
to
aia
utah
to
get
some
feedback.
We
have
had
some
feedback
from
architects,
particularly
on
the
inline
editions
and
those
types
of
things.
H
One
thing
that
we've
started
doing
because
of
the
pandemic
is
all
of
our
open.
Houses
are
digital
and
online
and
review
materials
at
your
own
convenience.
Historically,
when
we
hold
in-person
open
houses,
we'll
get
a
handful
of
people,
particularly
for
a
big
change
like
this,
that's
very
hard
to
understand
and
very
wonky
and
technical
in
nature,
but
we've
actually
had
176
people
visit
the
document
that
lists
all
of
the
changes
which
we
thought
were
was
whether
or
not
they've
read
through
it.
H
We
don't
know,
but
it's
probably
more
people
than
we're
getting
that
information.
When
we
were
meeting
in
person
next
steps,
the
planning
commission
will
have
their
public
hearing
on
this
on
november
18th
and
then
we'll
if
they
make
a
recommendation,
we'll
transmit
that
to
the
city
council
and
we'll
start
that
process
sometime,
hopefully
in
2021,
and
that
is.
A
F
B
I
don't
know
if
we
want
a
whole
lot
of
discussion
on
this,
but
this
has
clearly
been
very
well
thought
out
and
vetted
at
the
city
level.
I
I
can
think
of
a
handful
of
things
that
I
have
questions
about,
but
I'm
not
sure
they
need
to
go
into
the
public
record,
except
perhaps
that
some
notification
of
neighbors
or
vehicle
to
notify
neighbors
during
the
planning
process
might
be
a
good
thing.
But
I'm
I'm
willing
to
put
a
forward
emotion.
B
B
H
P
Hi
everybody
nick
thank
you
that
was
an
absolutely
fabulous
presentation
and
I
hope
you'll
post
it
on
the
website
or
the
open
house
page
or
whatever,
but
that
was
just
terrific.
So
I'm
delighted
to
see
that
the
landmarks
commission
will
retain
its
authority
to
a
grant
additional
height
and
modify
setbacks.
That
has
been
a
huge
benefit.
The
staff
put
together
a
walking
tour
a
little
over
a
year
ago,
of
some
of
the
buildings
that
have
resulted.
P
P
A
H
A
J
And
I
can,
I
can
start
and
say
you
know,
bravo
for
for
simplifying
the
process.
I
I
still
like
what
was
noted
in
our
in
the
in
the
text
for
for
this
evening's
packet.
You
know
that
special
exceptions
are
approved
by
staff
planning,
blah
blah
blah
or
the
historic
landmark.
Okay,
the
the
ability
to
make
exceptions
to
bulk
and
a
lot
of
dimensional
requirements
in
local
historic
districts
will
be
retained
through
the
process.
You
know
21a
34.20,
so
I
I
think
you
know
we.
J
F
D
A
B
D
F
B
A
H
Job
just
real
quick,
I
I
wanted
to.
I
wanted
to
acknowledge
it,
so
we
are
on
version
18
of
this
ordinance
right
now
and
it
has
been
an
all
hands
on
deck
for
the
planning
division
working
on
this.
But
we've
also
had
a
tremendous
amount
of
support
from
other
city
departments
and
divisions
who
have
reviewed
these
to
help
us
get
things
right
and
figure
out
what
their
needs
are
and
what
what
how
this
impacts
them,
because
it
does
impact
so
many
different
city
divisions.
H
D
A
A
A
D
A
D
A
G
A
A
A
A
A
F
A
No,
no.
I
was
told
this
summer
that
I'm
my
sentences,
I
think
another
three
years.
Okay,
there's
something
like
that.
Okay,
I
think
our
I
think
david
is
probably
the
next
one
who's
aging
out
of
this
okay,
but
I
don't
know
how
soon
you've
probably
got
another
year
with
us.
I
think
anyhow
we're
all
together
for
a
while
again.