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Description
The 0mega Working Group examines the ethos of and ethics in token engineering as well as the shared vision and diversity of its communities.
We gather every two weeks on Wednesday at 8pm CET.
Steward: Sebnem
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A
Quinn
who
joins
newly
hi
manuel,
and
he
actually
has
a
background
philosophy
and
ethical
thinking.
It
was
a
contact
through
zargham,
quickly,
hey
everyone,
and
I
would
say,
quinn
if
you
share
a
bit
about
your
background
and
also
you
know
your
research,
I
shared
it
in
the
channel.
I
don't
know
if
people
had.
B
A
Look
into
it,
but
it
would
be
great
and
then
basically
I'd
like
us
to
go
over
our
mirror
board
with
the
insights
or
with
the
things
we
collected
from
last
time
and
basically
work
on
those.
A
How
do
you
call
it
patterns
that
we
see
and
and
crystallize
them
a
bit
and
would
be
great
to
have
everyone's
input
and
question
insights,
but
also
like
when
how
you
see
it
from
more
with
the
ethics
lens
and
how
we
should
go
about?
Maybe
structuring
the
next
focus
group
calls
would
be
great.
C
Absolutely
nice
to
meet
everyone
thanks
for
thanks
for
inviting
me,
and
so
my
name
is
quinn
dupont.
I'm
an
assistant
professor
at
the
school
of
business
at
university
called
dublin
and
my
my.
C
Pretty
broad,
as
was
just
mentioned,
I
do
have
training
in
sort
of
very
traditional
philosophical
thought,
so
I
bring
I
bring
that
that
lens
to
some
extent
I've
been
researching
crypto
I
mean
back
when
it
was
just
bitcoin
since
2012
and
so
I've.
I
know
the
space
fairly
well,
I've
sort
of
been
through
the
trenches
and
seen
it
all,
and
it
constantly
surprises
and
amazes
me.
So
I'm
here
not
so
much
as
a
you
know
as
an
expert.
C
Rather,
I
like
to
think
of
myself
more,
maybe
as
kind
of
a
witness,
I'm
I'm
I'm
happy
to
sort
of
be
part
of
the
you
know
to
participate,
do
a
little
particip
participation
kind
of
with
you
know,
help
out
wherever
I
can,
with
whatever
insights
I
might
have
with
respect
to
ethics
and
these
kinds
of
things,
I
did
publish
an
article
on
the
topic
last
year
and
the
first
issue
of
cryptoeconomic
systems
journal
and
where
I
just
put
out
some
of
my
initial
thoughts
on
the
matter,
but
I'm
also
just
really
interested
in
kind
of
understanding
how
you
guys
tackle
these
kind
of
questions,
and-
and
so
I'm
a
bit
a
bit
of
like
an
anthropologist
in
that
regard.
A
Thank
you
so
and
from
from
the
others,
I
don't
know
if
you
wanted
to
share
anything
between
last
time,
and
now
you
also
just
joined
nathan
elsa,
I
will
be
sharing
the
screen.
Please
use
the
moment.
A
If
you
want
to
share
any
anything
from
last
time,
we
should
be
looking
into.
A
Okay,
so
right
now
I
would
say
we
have
them
token
engineering,
commons,
working
group,
omega
group
right.
So
the
the
background
of
the
people
here
is
more
of
the
political
science
and
and
philosophy
side
and
with
focus
group
last
time
we
also
had
pretty
engineering
heavy
side
of
the
token
engineering
or
this
cryptoeconomics
flower,
and
so
there
were
two
things
that
I
thought
were
quite
interesting
and
I
wanted
to
actually
prepare
this.
A
So
it's
a
bit
easier
on
the
eye
and
you,
but
there
are
two
things,
especially
in
the
chat.
Chats
are
always
the
best,
so
one
was
from
aiden.
A
Basically
it's
about
this
drive
to
re-engineer
current
or
existing
value
flow
or
value
systems
that
established
with
the
big
corporates
and
so
on
and
so
forth,
and
our
ability
to
you
know
programmable
value
networks,
re-engineer
that
and
actually
question
the
ethics
of
the
current
system
and
start
from
there.
A
So
I've
thought
that
is
super
interesting.
A
And
and
don't
be
shy
so
or
if
you
want
me
to
clarify
what
I
saw
like
this
whole
data
data
ownership.
Are
we
the
consumers,
being?
You
know,
zapped
into
on
the
internet
in
this
data
economy,
or
are
we
going
to
have
this
participator
networks,
ownership
of
our
data?
You
know
my
key
my
data
and
also
re-engineer
all
of
these
that's
those
systems
and
he
gives
them
a
very
plicative
example
of
media
and
data
and
social
networks,
etc.
A
I
assume
but,
but
I
think
it
goes
for
quite
other
established
networks,
as
well
even
for
utility
networks
like
energy
versus
decentralizing
energy
systems,
where
we
have
more
participatory.
C
I
don't
want
to
apply
I'm
new
here
so,
but
I
mean
I
I
I
have
lots
of
thoughts
on
this,
so
I
I
I
agree.
I
think
that's
both
the
the
exciting
and
dangerous
part
of
token
engineering
and
crypto
more
generally,
is
that
it's
perhaps
one
of
the
first
time
where
we've
had
such
a
powerful
set
of
technologies
to
re-engineer
society
and
in
the
values
that
we
utilize
in
society,
and
I
I
noticed
in
the
chat
zarghum
had
pointed
to
he.
C
He
mentioned
the
the
g
word
governance
and
I
think
that's
governance
is
really
just
the
I
like
to
think
of
it
as
the
sort
of
friendly
term.
That
is
really
masks
really.
What
is
just
amounts
to
ethics
and
values
and
norms,
and
it's
the
how
we
and
how
we
how
we
adjust
those
the
only
other
kind
of
term
I've
been
using
recently
is,
I
think,
very
much
of
token
engineering
as
a
form
of
behavioral
technology,
and
this
goes
back
to
some
good
old-fashioned
research
out
of
from
the
19.
C
You
know
1950s
and
stuff
famous,
but
made
made
famous
by
b.f
skinner,
and
you
know,
behavioralism
has
has
been,
of
course,
attacked
sort
of
for
lots
of
philosophical
reasons
or
whatever,
but
I
think
the
difference
between
what
bf
skinner
was
doing
with
his
rats
and
his
cages
and
giving
them
cocaine
to
dope
himself
with
or
whatever
and
whatever
kind
of
crazy
experiments.
C
He
was
doing
the
difference
between
then
and
now
is
that
we've
got
computers
and
platforms
specifically
really
that
they're
these
these
network
platforms
that
are
vastly
more
powerful
and
persuasive
than
could
have
ever
even
been
imagined
at
that
time.
So
that's
that
whole
everything
from
kind
of
the
world
of
media
down
to
the
micro
interactions
that
can
be
programmed
down
to
a
token
engineering
platform.
So
yeah,
that's.
A
A
I
just
also
just
no
thank
you
so
first
of
all
we're
all
new
to
this.
So
thank
you
for
just
breaking
the
eyes.
If
you
will-
and
I
I'm
sure,
we'll
figure
out
and
get
to
a
rhythm,
but
that's
exactly.
I
think
what
today
should
be
like
capturing
more
of
okay,
which
direction
should
we
look
into
and
again
I
think
that's
exactly
that
part
like
this
whole
token
economy.
A
Literally,
this
phrase
is
coined
by
skinner
who
was
basically
treating
institutionalized
schizophrenia,
patients
to
change
or
adapt
their
behavior
to
cope
with
yeah
social
environments
and
the
good
sides
kind
of
goes
into.
You
know:
utopia
we're
going
to
be
able
to
self
govern
self
sovereignty
and
we're
going
to
use
this
technology
to.
Actually
there
is
a
super
nice
thing
of
andy
to
top
self
sovereign
individuals
govern
well
together,
but
it's
assumed
this
whole
self-sovereignty
part
like
that.
A
Massive
scale
right
this
reward
system
on
a
global
coordination
infrastructure.
A
So
that's
yeah,
that's
the
you
know
black
and
white
good
and
bad
kind
of
seeing
it.
A
So
yeah
this
is
basically
how
it
starts
that
you
know
question
the
ethics
of
the
current
system.
How
how
this
is
handled
then
saying
web
3
is
the
savior
and
we
basically
have
that
opportunity,
but
also
naively,
maybe
not
taking
into
account
that
this
is
behavioral
technology
and
could
turn
into
yeah.
E
Yeah,
I
I
fall
in
that
realm,
where
I'm
like.
You
know,
I
I
you
know
he
talks
about
here,
the
media
propagation,
the
war
on
consciousness,
but
you
know,
I
think,
because
this
is
a
behavioral
technology
that
we're
just
bootstrapping
the
same.
E
You
know
moral
system
with
better
tech
and
and
better
tools
to
actually
use
that
for
behavioral
control,
and
you
know,
while
we
may
increase
the
cost
of
it,
I
don't
think
we
get
with
that
ethical
dilemma
at
the
heart
of
it,
and
so
I
yeah
that
I
guess
that
would
be.
My
only
concern
in
terms
of
ethics
is
that
you
know
we
we're
we're
just
bootstrapping
the
same
system
with
better
tooling
and
and
that's
why
you
can
reward
people,
that's
fine,
but
you're,
still
controlling
them
and
there's
a
baseline
ethical
problem
there.
A
And
and
no
rights-
and
we
will
get
to
this-
like
we
also
said-
but
we
will
get
to
that
in
in
the
mirror
one
in
in
one.
Second,
like
people
need
to
be
able
to
opt
in
so
actually
get
a
handle
on
this
potential
else,
if
you're
a
passive
user,
it's
not
something
good.
A
So
the
where
was
the
other
one
and
nathan.
Basically.
A
I'm
sorry
here
actually,
the
second
part
that
drew
me
in
the
chat
was
what
you
said
nathan,
especially
in
the
beginning.
A
That
the
ethical
dilemmas
emerge
from
rigid
institutional
ethics,
where
autonomy
of
the
individual
is
replaced
by
the
collective
determination
of
what's
good
and
bad,
and
you
know
even
the
assumption
of
that.
There
is
easily
identifiable
things
to
start
with,
and
this
is
basically
where
we
set
or
already
are
feeling
like,
contextual
ethics.
How
are
we
going
to
actually
contextualize
the
things
and
not
just
be
the
engineer,
the
designer,
but
every
participant?
A
So
we
have
this
various
perspectives
of
every
individual
idealistically
and
then
at
the
end
you
basically
do
ask:
do
we
have
anything
resembling
the
ethical
code
of
conduct,
so
we
want
guidance,
and
this
is
the
whole
thing
like,
but
at
the
same
time-
and
I
agree
with
you
totally
like
starting
with
this-
is
token
engineering
ethics
or
we
have
our
ethical
code
of
conduct
and
then
and
then
what
a
it
is
very
difficult
to
impossible,
probably
and
b
it
might
give
false
safety
where
we
should
be
actually
questioning
contextualizing.
E
Yeah
I
mean,
I
think,
that,
having
a
te
ethical
code
of
conduct,
you
know
having
standards
and
procedures
and
codes
of
contacts
are
extremely
important
for
just
having
something
to
reference.
So
I
think
that
is
a
very
foundational
document
similar
to
a
covenant,
or
you
know
your
mission
vision,
value,
type
type
of
document,
your
constitution,
if
you
will
that
you
know
people
can
reference
as
like
these
are.
E
These
are
the
code
of
conducts
for
token
engineers,
and
this
is
something
that
we
can
all
reference,
no
matter
what
type
of
project
you're
working
on
and
I
think
it's
very
important
to
develop.
But
it
like
you,
said
it's
not
and
all
be
all.
We
have
to
set
up
a
system
where
we
continue
to
question
it,
but
without
a
code
of
conduct,
it's
very
hard
to
enforce
ethical
rules
and
you
know
not
become
kind
of
dogman
to
this
type
of
situation.
So
just
my
thoughts.
A
And
I
was
actually
super
happy
to
have
found
ieee
matt,
please
don't
have
to
raise
a
hand
jumping.
F
I
was
actually
thinking
about.
While
I
was
reading
the
text
documents
on
contextual
ethics.
We
should
also
question
to
what
extent
we
should
think
about
ethics
as
concept
contextuality,
like
with
these
classical
criticism
of
moral
relativism.
I
think
we
also
may
we
should
also
think
about
actually
in
order
to
build
a
let's
say,
common
ethical
ground
for
all
people.
F
So
I
think,
even
though
ethics
is
relative
and
it's
changing
context
to
some
extent,
but
for
my
perspective,
for
example,
where
I
born
reading
hijab
is
perfectly
commenting
and
it's
nothing
serious
threat
to
morality,
etc,
but
in
sweden
people
were
talking
about.
Maybe
we
should
ban
it
or
not.
So,
of
course
there
is
like
this
is
not
a
good
example,
but
it
just
popped
up
to
my
mind.
So
there
is
like
relativists
part
of
ethics,
but
also,
maybe
we
should
think
about.
For
example,
this
is
from
nam
chomsky
he
he
in
one
of
his
interviews.
F
He
said,
of
course
there
is
changing
part
of
ethics
he's
a
moral
objectivist,
so
he
said
it's
it's
impossible
to
deny
it.
So
it's
a
scientific
truth
like
we
observe
it.
We
see
it
but
to
some
extent
we
we
how
we
acquire
like
ethics.
Culture
is
actually
a
biological
domain
of
us.
So
even
though
we
have
some
variety
of
ethics,
so
there
should
be
some
common
ground.
Here
argues
as
as
close
to
his
like
universal
grammar
theory.
F
We
acquire
ethics
through
same
way
without
like
any
discrimination
to
any
people
invert.
So,
for
example,
he
gives
the
example
of,
even
though
a
lot
of
moral
relatives
argue
that
since
ethics
is
changing,
it's
not
a
biological
domain.
He
argued
that
a
lot
of
human
system
actually
are
changing
through
our
experience.
For
example,
he
gives
the
example
of
visual
system,
so
through
our
like
childhood
memories,
etc.
F
The
conception
of
vertical
and
horizontal
is
changing
in
each
people,
but
it
doesn't
mean
that
you
can
change
some
person's
your
visual
system
to
insects
visual
system.
So
there
is
a
range
of
options
to
biological
systems,
but
at
the
end
there
is
some
sort
of
common
ground.
Maybe
we
can
talk
about.
Ethics
is
a
different
kind
of
thing,
so
it's
hard
to
study
compared
to
visual
system.
F
Let's
say,
but
maybe
while
we
are
talking
about
or
discussing
about
contextual
ethics,
maybe
we
can
also
incorporate
some
of
the
moral
objectivist
argument
like
how
we
should
think
about
it
and
how
it
can
be.
Let's
say
something
practical.
Unlike
current
philosophical
discussion
of
moral
objectivism,.
A
A
In
our
digitalizing
globalized,
but
highly
connected
societies
or
communities,
I
think
it's
super
important.
I
that
discussion
is
definitely
going
to
continue
and
just
this
you
know
10
minutes
wrap
up
on
those
like
what
is
the
the
framework
we
can
use
to
have
the
practical
discussions
is
a
big
one,
so
I
hope
you
feel
inclined
to
continue
or
share
more
of
this.
A
I
am
just
capturing
the
keywords
that
I,
and
hopefully
others,
use
to
to
research
further,
and
maybe
I
have
not
read
it
fully,
but
these
intervened
or
or
jumped
into
the
discussion
after
I
shared
the
ieee
ethics
standard
documents,
and
you
know
basically
roughly.
A
He's
coming
from
an
entirely
different
perspective
against
you
know:
okay
engineers
turned
valuing
query
into
a
a
flow
model
like
you're,
using
those
simplistic
tools,
again
kind
of
don't-
and
I
will
go
into
this
more,
but
I
think
it's
this
challenge
or
the
tension
that
both
attracts
us
as
well.
As
you
know,
challenges,
as
is
this.
A
We
are
engineering
information
systems.
You
know
definitely
like
that's
super
clear
on
the
practical
deployment
side,
but
those
systems
are
interacting
in
this
human,
social
sphere
and
this
mind
sphere
and
basically
this
whole
token,
meaning
that
this
representation
of
information
can
and
will
be
used
to
guide,
inform
or
incentivize
actions.
A
There
are
people
basically
will
decide.
Am
I
following
these
incentives?
There
are
people
who
decide.
Am
I
designing
these
incentives?
What
are
my
intentions
and
and
so
on
and
so
forth?
So.
A
Lens
really
also
suppose
key
like
how
do
we
as
humans
think
make
decisions,
and
our
knowledge
of
it
at
the
very
least
right
now
is
definitely
not
that
simplistic.
A
A
That
that
seems
for
me,
like
the.
How
do
you
put
the
easy
way
out
kind
of
you
know
it's
practical.
The
best
we
can
do
is
you
know
a
consilient,
the
state-of-the-art
knowledge
about
decision
making,
combine
it
with
a
tooling
that
helps
everyone
taking
part
in
the
token
economy.
A
B
Yeah,
if,
if
I
can
quickly
share
something
now
that
you're
talking
about
capabilities,
I
think,
since
we
are
exploring
and
we've
used
ostrom's
principles,
nobel
prize
in
economics,
there's
another
noble
nobel
prize
winner
in
economics,
more
json
and
I
think
the
capability
approach
is
a
very
interesting
thing
that
we
ought
to
be
at
least
considering
more.
So.
B
For
those
that
don't
know,
the
capability
approach
basically
investigates
how
to
contemplate
the
value
of
freedom
in
the
context
of
the
distributed
justice
and
economic
philosophy,
and
recently
there
was
a
book
that
actually
comes
up
with.
It's
called
the
ethics
and
economics
of
the
capability
approach,
and
it
comes
up
with
a
with
a
an
equation
to
sort
of
value.
B
The
capabilities
of
an
individual
right,
so
sense,
concept
of
freedom
relates
to
to
capabilities
or
like
real
potentialities,
for
what
individuals
can
actually
do
or
be
by
using
their
resources
right.
So,
instead
of
instead
of
just
focusing
on
commodities,
we
can
think
of
of
actually
functionings
and
capabilities
right
so
going
beyond
capturing
well-being
by
gdp
in
commodities,
but
actually
functions
and
capabilities
and
doing
this
would
have
renewed
definitions
of
difference,
equality,
opportunity,
etc.
B
Basically,
I
don't
want
to
get
too
much
in
the
weeds
of
it,
but
the
way
the
way
the
author
does.
The
economic
modeling
of
individual
capability
is
by
formulating
it
as
an
extended
maximization
model
in
economics,
so,
instead
of
instead
of
just
having
a
commodity
space,
which
is
a
traditional
way,
comes
up
with
a
functioning
space,
so
I
mean
these
things.
It's
it's.
B
It's
really
too
intricate
to
to
explain
and
just
and
I
don't
wanna
get
another
conversation,
but
I'm
happy
to
do
some
more
research
and
and
come
up
with
something
maybe
a
forum
post,
but
but
yeah.
It's
just
food
for
thought
and
if
anyone
is
interested
in
that,
I
can
share
the
knowledge.
B
The
study
was
a
great
way
forward
that
actually
they
came
up
with
an
an
equation
for
it
and
if
there's
a
like
an
economic
equation
for
it,
then
of
course
we
can
model
it
and
maybe
do
some
token
engineering
around
it.
So
these
two
things
intersect
and
we
ought
to
be
paying
attention.
So
sorry,
queen
go
ahead.
C
No,
I
I
I
I
think
that
was
it
was
very
helpful.
I
I
don't
really
actually
have
anything
to
to
add
my
only
my
only
thought
was
simply
that
there's
this
distinction
that
perhaps
we
need
to
be
mindful
about
of
which
is
whether
or
not
ethics
is
something
beyond
just
right
action,
but
actually,
I
think
if
the
capability
model
is
a
really
great
example
of
a
way
of
finding
the
you
know
that
away
the
way
through
that
otherwise
problematic,
somewhat
problematic
division.
C
A
Cool
so
again
like
it
would
be
great
if
you
would
take
this
document
also
and
just
add
links
to
to
the
parts
that
you
have
been
contributing.
So
people
can
look
it
up
or
feel
free
to
really
add
a
paragraph
or
more
because
I
think
we
definitely
need
this
like
what
are
the
different
frameworks,
different
models
and
and
then
also
have
people
to
actually
interested
invested
and
and
willing
to
follow
right
these
models
and
how
they
map
into
our.
A
Token
engineering
space
or
I
would
really
extend
this
to
participation
in
token
economies,
because
one
thing
I
and
again
I'm
curious
about
the
capability
approach
manu,
because
one
thing
I
would
like
to-
and
I
think
we
will
have
to
let
go
of
as
kind
of
it's
the
engineer's
job
and
they
will
take
care
of
you
know,
making
those
ethical
decisions
and.
A
You
know
I'm
just
a
consumer
and
I
am
protected
by
laws
and
what
have
is
because
it
seems
like
we're
moving
beyond
that
right
and
we're
moving
beyond
that
consumerism,
passive
user,
basically,
who
needs
protection
and
to
actually
self-serve
and
peer
participants
in
this
networks.
The
token
and
during
comments
stated
very
early
because
it
was
more
or
less
obvious,
like
also
a
wake-up
call.
A
Maybe
you
know
your
economy,
your
choice,
meaning
this
is
a
token
engineering
commons
for
token
engineers
right
like
if
someone
should
participate,
that's
you
kind
of
so
that
that's
one
thing.
I
guess
really.
How
do
we
move
beyond
these?
These
roles
and.
A
A
And
each
participant
is
basically
making
decisions
that
are
defining
the
token
economy,
as
well
as
the
initial
design,
so
some
yeah
just
to
make
or
underscore
this
it
is,
I
believe,
very
important
to
have
these
frameworks
follow
on
the
other.
Part
of
this
is
really.
A
People
in
the
trenches,
practical
life
of
a
token
engineer
looks
really
very,
very
different.
It's
just
you,
your
software
engineer,
fixing
box
on
a
live
system
and,
for
example,
one
thing
from
the
ivory
tower
of
token
engineering.
A
A
The
system
is
really
alive
system,
it
is
it's
a
really
cyber
physical
thing,
an
organism.
A
You
can't
test
everything
and
even
if
you
test
everything
in
production
conditions
come
together,
you
could
have
never
foreseen.
You
could
have
never
entirely.
You
know,
modeled
and
and
tested
like
it's,
not
engineering,
a
machine
or
a
power
system,
it's
dynamic,
but
it's
still
man-made
and
only
operated
by
other
machines
and
protocols.
A
Our
token
networks
aren't
that
right
now,
they're,
certainly
not
that,
but
it's
more
a
living
again
a
living
organism.
That's
only
partly
engineered
and
that's
basically
again
pushed
me
towards,
and
I'm
curious
about
what
you
think
about
how
ethics
is
handled
in
in
places
where
you
can't
research,
everything
in
a
petri
dish
where
you
need
to
experiment,
you
know
and
tests,
for
example,
that's
the
humans
and
so
on.
So
are
we
more
in
that
space.
A
I
think
I
don't
know,
I
felt
token
entering
comments
is
pretty
safe
because
it's
a
very
niche
community
right
and
but
the
trusted
seed
and
everything
it
was
very.
How
do
you
call
it?
Concise,
coherent
and
participants
know
what
they're
doing
and
then
supporters
contributors
know
what
they're
doing
and
why
so.
A
That
was
a
pretty
clear,
but
when
I
look
into
any
other
thing
that
went
live
in
the
past
years
and
also
just
recently
the
whole
d5
protocol,
as
well
as
sorry
yeah,
the
defy
as
well
as
even
nft,
it's
very
different.
A
So
is
there
any
resonance,
for
example
or
any
insights?
I
don't
know
quinn
or
others.
If
you
know
are
knowledgeable
about
this
experimentation
side
and
the
ethics
of
of
that,
and
whether
there
are
also
more
practical
things.
We
could
look
into
that
isn't
just
systems,
engineering
and
ieee.
C
C
Is
that
kind
of
naturalistic
sort
of
inductive
kind
of
approach
right,
like
almost
that
kind
of
what
we
typically
think
of
as
science
right
you're,
just
looking
for
to
observe
some
behavior
or
phenomena,
and
you
record
it
and-
and
then
you
you
know,
come
up
with
a
hypothesis
about
what's
going
on
or
whatever
right,
that's
sort
of
how
we
typically
think
most
science
kind
of
goes
in
computer
security
research.
C
That's
certainly
that
is
one
option
you
can
just
do
passive
measurement
and
just
see
what
the
network's
up
to
and
okay,
that's
you
know,
there's
a
big
distinction,
though,
with
some
people
who
do
active
measurement,
which
is
really
a
form
of
inducing
the
behavior
that
they're
looking
to
to
sort
of
see
what
happens
as
it
were
right.
It's
a
kind
of
that
you
know
put
it
in
the
petri
dish.
I
mean
you
were
using
these
words
before
about
this
idea
of.
Like
is
this
really?
C
Is
this
just
a
something
we
can
just
sort
of
muck
with
or
whatever,
because
it's
a
sort
of
a
live
system
or
whatever,
and
that
scene
in
that
in
in
the
computer
security
space
is
much
more
dangerous
and
but
nonetheless,
is
a
a
significant
part
of
what
computer
security
researchers
do.
So
it
is
seemingly
accepted,
but
there's
loads
and
loads
of
examples
that
have
backfired
from
people
doing
active,
active
measurement.
So
I
definitely
think
that's
one
of
those.
It's
like
the.
C
I
don't
know
what
the
metaphor
would
be,
but
the
drip
line
or-
or
you
know,
danger,
beware
or
something
like
that
is
is
part.
It
should
be
sort
of
surrounding
anything.
That's
not
seen
as
just
purely
passive.
A
That
would
be
super
interesting
if
you
could
share
some
of
those
like
when,
when
you
have
time
and.
C
Yeah
I'll,
if
I
can
think
of
some,
but
there
are
like
say
there
are
many
examples
of
what
kind
of
situation
is
going
going
wrong
with
with
active
yeah.
A
A
People
from
other
domains
and
then
exchange
with
their
you
know,
find
similar
situations
like
in
the
first
group
ask
how,
for
example,
the
someone
in
computer
security,
what
has
experienced
similar
situations
and
how
do
they
handle
its
you
know
ethical
code
of
conduct
or
find
parallels
and
or
really
bring
people
together
from
you
know,
defy
nfd
have
increased
the
list
that
we
have
here
a
bit
more
yeah.
So
if
you
guys.
D
D
A
lot
of
different
aspects
of
the
self
together
that
weren't
combined
before
and
I
really
like
the
perspective
of
us
being
like
whole
human
beings
coming
to
spaces
where
we
can
express
our
full
selves
instead
of
just
little
parts
of
us
that
interact
with
one
thing
or
another.
D
So
for
me
I
mean
I
was
a
performer
before
I
I
got
to
the
space
and
my
object
of
research
was
sexuality
for
a
long
time,
and
I've
been
really
interested
about
how
desire
and
our
relationship
with
sexual
ethics
play
on
decision
making
and
in
all
levels,
not
only
when
it
comes
to
like
specific
sexual
interactions.
But
thinking
of
this
energy,
as
this
pulse
of
motivation
that
it's,
like
our
whole
body,
our
whole
selves
and
parts
of
how
we
interact
with
the
world.
D
And
I
was
reading
this
book
that
made
the
the
biggest
research
in
america
about
desire.
The
most
like
data
based
look
into
into
desire,
motivation,
sexuality
and
politics,
and
and
how
they
interplay
together.
D
And
there
was
a
lot
of
clusters
of
like
data
patterns
between
like
people
that
had
certain
types
of
desires
and
certain
types
of
political
stances.
D
And
how
that
affects
and
the
way
they
make
decisions
in
the
day
by
day,
and
I
feel
like
it's
still
a
taboo
to
talk
about
this
in
the
crypto
space,
but
is
somehow
a
little
more
open
than
any
other
space,
and
I
think
if
it's,
if
we
are
in
this
experimentation
field
and
we're
talking
about
ethics
and
consent
and
legitimacy,
it's
really
like
foundational
to
me
to
think
about
sexuality
as
well.
D
A
So
also
like,
underneath
desires,
needs,
etc.
That's
this
whole
full
selves,
like
our
decision
making,
is
not
just
rational.
It's
literally
goes
to
you
know
things
that
conditions
the
second
back
an
hour
back
a
year
back,
100
years
back
and
so
on
and
so
forth.
So
definitely,
and
also
again,
what
would
be
really
cool
is
if
you
find
those
patterns,
even
those
again
coming
from
widely
different
directions.
A
Common
ground
right,
so
I
don't
think
it
will
be
broad
as
a
ground,
but
maybe
as
a
grain,
and
that
would
be
even
enough
like
also
going
back
to
to
first
principles.
I
think
if
we
have
one
principle,
that's
that
literally
or
two
it's
a
full
spectrum
as
much
as
many
perspective
as
we
can
get
and
then
basically
find
that
grain
that
exists
or
that
pattern
that
exists
no
matter
from
what,
while
direction
you
come
and
look
at
this,
it
would
be
fantastic.
A
In
the
meantime,
people
are
dying,
deploying
token
networks,
it's
really
crazy.
So,
but
again,
I
think
this
whole
frame.
How
are
we
looking
at
this?
It's
a
very,
very
exciting
side
of
it
and
we
need
to
take
it
along
and
hope,
you're
all
motivated
to
really
bring
bring
everything
you
got
and
on
the
other
side,
again,
at
the
very
least,
we
have
more
and
more
experience.
A
People
are,
you
know,
sharing
their
experiences,
that's
great
in
a
very
transparent
way
without
drama
like
this
is
what
it
is,
and
that's
also
very
exciting,
actually
to
have
people
who
are
developing.
C
E
So
sorry,
I
just
I
just
wanted
to
ask
a
question,
because
what
olivia
said
really
kind
of
just
resounded
with
me
like
in
terms
of
how
we
approach
ethics,
because
traditionally
or
the
ethical
frameworks
that
we
do
use
are
designed
around
professions.
Professional
like
the
ieee,
is
a
great
example
of
that.
E
A
Yeah,
I
don't
think
so
that
I
think
we've
been
living
in
very
simplistic
system
and
models
and
I
think
we're
outgrowing
them.
So
this
is
how
how
it
feels
it's
more
like
if
you
look
back
how
society
organized
what
were
the
social
norms,
what
kept
things
together,
you
look
at
it
and
you
you
see
it
from
another
level
for
more
experiences
and
so
on.
It
feels
like
we're
just
expanding
a
little
bit
more
seeing
more
dimensions
and
hopefully
be
able
to
level
up
to
to
handle
this.
A
A
B
C
C
I'd
just
like
to
say,
I
think
these
last
two
comments
have
been.
I
think,
they're
really
interesting
and
generative,
because
this
is
not
the
first
time
I've
heard
in
these
kinds
of
discussions,
people
being
really
aware
of
the
kind
of
embodied
sense
of
just
of
being
people
and
making
decisions
and
so
forth,
and
that
includes
things
like
sexuality,
and
you
know
race
and
economics
and
so
forth.
C
All
these
all
these
kinds
of
things,
which
is
where
we
are
and
so
and
whatnot,
but
what's
interesting
and-
and
so
I
just
would
love
to
hear
people
talk
more
about
this
and
to
see
if
this
is
maybe
like.
C
If
this
is
maybe
something
that
this
space
is
embracing
or
if
this
is
just
a
kind
of
a
one-off
or
something
like
this,
because
in
many
respects
the
sort
of
very
traditional,
the
very
traditional
approach
to
to
crypto
is
it
has
this
legacy
of
the
kind
of
the
sort
of
cyber
libertarian
which
it
very
much
downplays,
the
embodied
self?
C
C
If
it's
going
to
get
anywhere
this,
this
kind
of
embodied
kind
of
ethics
or
whatever,
and
I'm
really
supportive
of
that,
I
think
that's
actually
right
for
a
whole
bunch
of
reasons
not
just
for
like
because
we're
people
or
whatever,
but
also,
I
think,
there's
like
sort
of
deeper
philosophical
reasons
why
this
is
something
that's
right
and
that's
something
that
sort
of
the
early
cyber
libertarians
kind
of
in
many
respects
got
wrong.
C
But
I
think
it's
it's
it's
a
point
of
content,
contestation
right
that
we
have
to
really
and
it's
it's
not
clear.
It's
and
I
it
almost
seems
to
me
like
there
might
be
something
of
a
sea
shift
happening
here-
that
there's
certain
values
that
these
communities
are
working
through
in
ways
that
maybe
actually
the
rest
of
society
is
not
really
up
to
speed
on
yet.
A
C
A
I
agree
but
at
the
same
time
it
feels
like
we
are
rest
of
suicide
like
if
you
look
where
people
coming
from
it's
very
hard
to
say,
okay,
so
I
think
that's
the
that
that's
one
question
and
maybe
we
are
a
bit
more
biased,
but
when
I
look
at
things
like
meta
game,
for
example,
again
entirely
different
backgrounds,
if
you
want
demography
or
what
have
you
still
seeing
this
thing
and
I
come
from
automation,
automate
all
the
things
you
know.
If
computers
run
stuff,
it
will
be
better
to
actually.
C
C
I
don't
mean
professional
all
the
gate,
like
professional
origins,
for
people,
I
mean
much
more
across
the
board,
and
you
know
I
I
mean
that's
my
suspicion.
If
I
had
to
give
a
a
root
cause
of
this
would
be
a
generational
shift
that
there's
basically
millennials
in
gen
z,
is
who
have
now
populate
the
crypto
space
and
with
that
they
bring
and,
roughly
speaking,
a
new
kind
of
ethics
wow.
C
A
Yeah,
so
that's
also
one
aspect:
if
you
have
ideas
how
we
could
actually
create
the
frame
and
how
we
capture
these
information,
I
didn't
record
this
one
because
I
thought
maybe
we
can
open,
be
more
open,
etc,
but
I
mean
if
I
was
an
anthropologist
you
know
I
would.
I
would
probably
delve
into
this.
I
think
it's
super
interesting.
What
is
what
is
coming
together
and
also
the
willingness
of
people
to
really
collectively
figure
figure
it
out
and
be
super
open-minded
about?
A
You
know
another
thing
that
I
keep
hearing
as
transcending
paradigms.
A
So
that's
literally
seems
to
be
things
that
resonate
like
yeah.
I
know
I
come
from
a
certain
viewpoint,
but
we're
inquisitive
and
with
every
question
and
every
experience
it
opens
up,
it
opens
up
so,
but
maybe
maybe
we
are
orthodontists
omega
might
be
biased
towards
this,
but
from
experience
I
can
say
it
was
since
some
it
evolves
or
for
me
personally,
it's
evolved.
I
don't
know
how
about
the
others
like.
A
If
you
just
see
your
see
something
resonant
or
if
you
also
have
to
have
a
couple
of
mind,
shifts
step
changes.
But
on
my
side
I
must
say.
A
A
Okay,
we're
approaching
the
hour
again.
As
always.
I
think
it's
quite
short
it's
the
hour
when
it
starts
to
become
more
interesting,
maybe
I'll
try.
Maybe
we
can
do
one
and
a
half
hours,
but
at
the
same
time
we
could
also
have
a
break
here,
and
I
give
you
a
short
overview
of
how
this
was
or
how
this
came
together.
What
what
patterns
it
seems
or
what
practical
things
we
could
extract
from
this.
A
These
notes
of
the
first
focus
group
again
like
what
type
of
decisions
have
been
have
we
been
making
and
what
type
of
dilemmas
not
even
ethical,
but
what
type
of
dilemmas
we
are
experiencing.
It's
very
hard
to
have
people
exactly
answer
this
and
I
don't
think,
that's
ever
possible,
but
what
came
comes
up
is
making
things
understandable
for
everyone.
Even
for
ourselves,
when
things
are
evolving,
you're
designing
the
token
economy,
things
are
deploying
versus
getting
things
done.
A
It's
really
a
software
system
you
can
and
people
expect
to
be
delivered
as
a
software
system.
So
there
is
this
and
on
the
other
side
we
we
are.
We
are
well
aware
we're
creating
a
reward
system
incentive
system
that
may
will
influence
the
decision
of
others
how
they
participate
and
we
don't
even
know
ourselves,
we
can
model
etc,
but
we
need
some
sort
of
feedback
system
that
is
better
than
I
have
modeled
and
simulated
and
and
now
we're
just
deploying
it
out
into
open.
A
So
again,
you
know
better
mapping,
but
also
checking
the
beliefs
and
systems
and
worldviews.
There
are
some
things
I
can
share
more
next
time,
maybe
or
when
we
go
into
actually
making
something
out
of
this.
But
there
are
some
things:
we've
been
using
to
map
this,
isn't
just
multi-stakeholder,
but
really
multi-aspect
situation,
feedback
system
with
technology
data
analysis
and
so
on.
How
far
can
we
get
those?
What
are
the
leverage
there?
A
So
again,
it's
a
blend
of
philosophical
and
and
humanistic
side
of
things,
but
creme
de
la
creme,
machine
learning
and
and
simulation
stuff
information,
availability,
accessibility
versus
you
know
the
bias
of
the
engineer.
That
seems
more
of
a
topic
beyond
even
token
engineering.
A
But
then
there's
this
typical
thing.
We
we
want
to.
A
Privacy
versus
the
bland
transparency
of
tokens
and
token
networks,
and
also
how
this
participation
goes
so
there's
actually,
in
my
view,
very
little
privacy
in
how
things
are
run
and
then,
on
the
other
side,
there
is
really
regulators
asking
of
you
to
do
kyc
and
so
on,
without
actually
having
this
deep
and
untested
system
of
how
do
we
keep
the
balance
between
the
transparency
that
we
need,
the
things
that
we
engineer
to
increase
that
traceability
of
individuals
versus
wallets
and
so
on?
At
the
same
time,
preserving
the
privacy
of
participants.
A
Find
themselves
there
again
and
then
also
like
this
misuse
of
access
to
information,
if
you're
on
the
designing
side
of
the
token
network,
again,
that's
something
there
are
best
practices
or
or
experiences
from
other
professions,
be
it
investment,
banking
or
yeah,
most
investment,
banking,
for
example.
A
A
A
Now
it's
moving
towards
the
token,
and
there
are
people
able
to
deploy
this
contract
right,
but
the
game
doesn't
change,
it's
like
changes
hands
and
at
first
it
feels
liberating,
of
course,
if
you're
the
coder.
Now,
basically,
you
know
or
if
you're,
basically
a
renegade
from
the
existing
financial
system
and
now
you're
a
coder.
You
can
basically
run
wall
street
from
yeah,
with
your
laptop
wherever
you
are,
so
that's
information
asymmetries
are
still
there,
power,
estimators
and
so
on,
and
that
type
of
ethical
concern.
A
I
think
one
very
concrete
thing
that
is
coming
out
of
token
engineering
is
a
computer
added
governance
that
adds
really
every
participant
so
that
such
decision
making
will
really
be
enabled
by
every
participant
that
could
be
compared
to.
A
Liquid
democracy,
visions,
you
know,
everyone
participates
and,
and
every
decision
made
for
the
society
goes
back
to
every
individual.