►
Description
General Government and Licensing Committee, meeting 19, November 30, 2020
Agenda and background materials:
http://app.toronto.ca/tmmis/decisionBodyProfile.do?function=doPrepare&meetingId=17060
A
A
Today's
meeting
is
being
held
by
video
conference
city
staff
were
also
connected
to
the
meeting
by
video
conference.
As
city
hall
remains
closed,
the
public
will
continue
to
participate
electronically
and
you
can
watch
the
meeting
streaming
live
on
youtube
at
youtube.com,
slash
toronto
city
council
live
the
city
clerk's.
The
clerk
staff
also
connected
all
registered
speakers
to
the
meeting
by
audio.
A
A
I
am
asking
for
everyone's
patience
if
we
experience
any
delays
or
technical
problems
during
the
meeting,
the
city
clerk
has
provided
all
agenda
materials
on
toronto,
dot,
ca,
slash,
council
on
cmp
the
clerk's
meeting
portal.
Clerk's
I.t
staff
will
be
available
to
you
remotely.
If
you
need
any
help
with
your
devices.
A
A
A
I
will
then
create
a
speakers
list
and
will
call
them
members
when
it's
their
turn
to
speak.
When
voting
on
an
item
or
a
motion,
I
ask
the
members
ensure
that
they
keep
their
video
on
and
to
raise
their
hand
to
indicate
their
vote
members.
I
will
remind
you:
you
must
still
submit
and
approve
your
motions
by
email
staff
are
available
at
gglc
at
toronto.ca
to
help
with
motions.
A
A
Although
we're
in
different
locations
and
meeting
remotely
today,
the
committee
would
like
to
acknowledge
the
land
we
are
meeting
on
as
their
traditional
territories
at
many
nations,
including
the
mississaugas
of
the
credit,
the
ana
nashabi,
the
chippewa,
the
honda
nushoni
and
the
wenda
peoples,
and
is
now
home
to
many
diverse
first
nations
inuit
and
metis
peoples.
We
also
acknowledge
that
toronto
is
covered
by
treaty
number
13
with
the
mississaugas
of
the
credit.
A
A
I
may
have
a
motion
to
confirm
the
minutes
of
our
regular
meeting
on
november,
2nd
2020
as
well
of
the
minutes
of
our
special
meeting
on
november.
4Th
2020.
move
both
moved
by
counselor
holiday,
all
in
favor
carried
members.
We
have
19
items
on
our
agenda
for
today's
meeting
and
we
have
members
of
the
public
who
are
registered
to
speak
on
item
number
three
there's
three
listed
deputies
and
item
number
four
there's
also
three
listed
deputies,
I'm
just
going
to
run
through
the
agenda.
A
A
A
D
I
I
have
no
questions.
I
just
wanted
to
make
the
comments
to
the
clerks
that
the
attachments
reading
them
digitally
are
a
little
bit
blurry
and
there's
a
way
to
just
improve
them
for
the
final
report,
the
resolution
on
them,
because
I
think
they
look
like
images
that
are
pasted
in.
I
would
appreciate
that.
I
have
no
questions
on
this
item,
though.
A
Councilor
fillion,
would
you
like
to
move
it
counselor
affiliates,
moving
number
11,
all
in
favor
carried
number
12
is
activation
of
220
poplar
roads
for
robert
l,
borden
business
and
technical
school
in
ward
24,
which
happens
to
be
my
award.
So
I'm
going
to
move
number
12,
all
in
favor
carried
number
13
initiation
of
expropriation
of
permanent
easements
for
the
port
union,
road
widening
in
ward
25.
A
Somebody
like
to
move
that
council
nunziata
all
in
favor
carried
number
14
19.14
is
release
of
easement
at
10
and
20
meadow
meadow
glen
place
in
ward
24,
which
is
my
award.
I
will
move
the
recommendations
on
favor
carried
number
15
emergency
non-competitive
contract
with
the
century
group
incorporated
for
construction
management
services
at
the
east
wing
of
union
station.
A
A
Sorry
I
forgot
to
mention
the
number
matthew.
My
apologies,
somebody
like
to
move
number
17
council
holidays,
moving
number
17,
all
in
favor
carried
number
18,
19.18
amendments
to
the
non-competitive
bridge,
contract
for
the
inspection,
maintenance
and
repair
of
heating
ventilation
and
air
conditioning
systems,
boilers,
water,
chillers
and
cooling
towers.
C
A
A
A
Once
we've
completed
that
we
move
it
back
into
committee
as
we
call
it
where
each
member
of
the
committee
has
five
minutes
to
ask
questions
of
staff
and
then
we
can
speak
to
the
item
or
move
motions,
and
then
we
will
vote
on
any
motions
and
the
item
so
the
first
debut
then
I
have
listed
is
mr
bob
murphy
from
western
acorn.
Mr
murphy,
are
you
available.
A
E
E
E
E
We
are
very
pleased
last
year,
the
city
toronto
capped
the
amount
of
licenses
issued
to
payday
lenders,
because
it
will
help
limit
their
growth
in
the
most
vulnerable
communities.
Our
communities
in
my
neighborhood
of
western
payday
lenders
are
frequently
seen
on
street
corners
or
next
empty
buildings,
where
major
banks
used
to
be
people
in
neighborhoods,
like
mine,
have
fewer
options
for
banking
other
in
other
areas
of
the
city.
E
There
is
a
reason
why
predatory
lenders
like
money
mark
cluster
in
neighborhoods,
like
weston
and
jane
and
finch
payday
lenders
do
not
operate
in
force
hill
or
rosedale.
They
cluster,
where
low-income
people
live,
trap
them
in
a
cycle
of
debt.
This
city
also
must
include
installment
lenders.
When
we
talk
about
predatory
lenders
right
now,
many
payday
lenders
are
getting
into
installment
loans
due
to
acorns
work
on
the
payday
loan
act
and
lowering
the
provincial
interest
rates.
E
E
E
E
E
E
A
F
Yes,
hello.
Thank
you.
Everyone
for
having
us.
My
name
is
stephen
martins.
I'm
the
director
of
operations
for
paid
today,
I'm
speaking
out
in
regards
to
the
additional
restrictions
and
legislations
towards
the
locations
and
putting
more
restrictions
into
opening
up
further
locations,
the
ontario
government,
when
they
made
the
decision
to
put
or
give
the
city
bylaw
abilities
it
wasn't
to
shut
down
the
industry.
It
was
to
you
know,
try
and
put
it
put
it
away
from
places
like
casinos,
where
people
tend
to
you
know.
F
If
they
have
a
gambling
issue.
Okay,
you
don't
wanna
pay
the
loan
there.
That's
fine
was
never
meant
or
intended
to
close
out
and
shout
the
industry
completely
right
now
what's
happening
is
the
city
is
not
allowing
licenses
to
be
transferred
they're,
not
allowing
new
licenses.
So
in
essence,
they
are
not
allowing
competition.
F
They
are
also
not
allowing
you
know
more
competitive
rates
to
come
into
the
market
and
they're
pretty
much
creating
an
oligopoly
for
the
existing
licenses.
You
got
the
big
companies
such
as
your
cash
monies,
your
money
marts.
They
they
they're
happy
with
this
legislation.
Now
there's
no
further
competition.
F
It
seems
that
the
city
over
here
is
making
more
decisions
based
on.
What's
looks
good
in
the
newspaper
articles.
What's
looks
good,
you
know
for
political
gain
and
not
actually
helping
the
consumer.
There's
many
independent
reports,
such
as
the
cardis
report,
which
cardis
is
an
independent,
think
tank.
They
they
came
out
and
they
they
even
state
that
limiting
the
number
of
payday
loan
locations
is
pretty
much
putting
the
consumer
at
a
disadvantage.
F
The
the
consumer
still
needs
this
product.
They
still
require
it.
There
is
no
other
product
on
the
market
that
can
fill
this
particular
need.
This
is
just
another
tool
in
the
consumer's
financial
tool
belt
to
try
and
make
their
ends
meet
when
they
do
file
themselves
short.
You
know.
The
purpose
of
the
payday
loan
is
not
to
put
a
person
into
a
credit
cycle.
It's
a
temporary
means
to
help
them
through
a
short
temporary
cash
crunch.
F
That's
the
purpose
of
this
particular
loan,
and
you
know
so
we
take
exception
to
the
fact
that
you're
putting
consumers
into
a
a
financial
cycle
or
financial
crunch
when
you're
talking
about
organizations
such
as
acorn,
you
know
we've
reached
out
to
acorn,
and
we
said
you
know
okay.
Well,
you
know
what
what
can
we
do
to
try
and
assist
this
type
of
industry?
You
know
what,
if
we
stop
serving
the
extremely
most
vulnerable,
such
as
the
people
on
social
assistance
and
the
people
on
ontario
disability,
their
response
was
well.
F
If
you
stop
serving
us
who's
going
to
help
us,
you
know
there
is
a
need
for
this
product
and
once
again
putting
further
restrictions.
Putting
further
limitations
is
just
going
to
hurt
the
the
end.
Consumer
and
final
point.
Is
it's
disappointing
to
see
counselors
on
this
meeting
counselors
on
this
committee,
such
as
former
counselor,
jim
carrey,
janus
publicly
disparaging
our
industry
comparing
us
to
human
traffickers?
F
You
have
counselors
such
as
francis
nicotta
publicly,
stating
that
she's
doing
whatever
she
can
to
eliminate
us
from
and
eliminate
us
our
industry.
That's
not
the
purpose
of
this
particular
bylaw
or
the
particular
purpose
of
the
the
ontario
government's
ability
to
give
the
city's
ability
to
make
these
bylaws.
F
C
A
A
G
G
What
is
disappointing
about
this
legislation
altogether
is
that
the
city
councilors
haven't
gone
out
of
their
way
to
get
themselves
educated
with
any
experts
in
the
industry.
I've
sat
on
some
of
the
city
committee
boards
and
talked
to
some
of
these
city
councillors
directly
and
the
city
councilors
that
have
taken.
The
information
have
asked
some
very
valuable
questions
in
the
past,
but
unfortunately,
this
legislation
does
nothing
but
hurt
the
end
consumer,
specifically
my
colleagues
in
the
cpla
and
it
black
have
come
and
spoken
about
the
anti-competitiveness
of
this
legislation
and
its
effectiveness.
G
One
of
the
things
that
acorn
has
asked
for
and-
and
I
see
is
part
of
the
summary-
is
keeping
payday
lenders
away
from
schools,
which
I
find
you
know
rather
ridiculous.
Considering
that
you
know
children
are
not
getting
these
loans,
and
it
just
seems
like
it's
another
attempt
to
ban
payday
lenders
so
that
they're
they're
not
not
near
anything.
G
This
this
legislation
is
anti-competitive
and
we
we
deem
to
take
action
against
this
legislation
legally.
The
government
of
ontario
and
its
existing
regulations
cover
all
of
the
necessary
regulations
pertaining
to
advertising
and
further
legislating.
This
industry
pertaining
to
advertising
seems
to
be
a
waste
of
taxpayers,
money.
G
G
G
D
Do
thank
you
for
speaking
to
us.
I
wanted
to
be
clear
because
you
mentioned
the
legislation
a
number
of
times.
I
wanted
to
be
distinct
about.
What's
before
us
with
respect
to
the
committee
recommendations.
Are
you
referring
to
the
ontario
legislation
in
your
comments?
Are
you
referring
to
something
else.
G
Sorry,
what
part
of
the
question
like
the
legislation
restricting
new
locations
is,
is
not
in
the
ontario
legislation.
But
what
my
point
is
is
that
the
ontario
government
has
legislated
this
business
and
has
many
regulations,
including
the
ability,
what
they
call
as
an
early
payment
plan
which
allows
the
consumer
to
make
interest
repayments.
G
You
know
over
several
periods
of
time
and
that
that
prevents
the
the
so-called
cycle
or
predatoriness
of
this.
The
other
thing
that
I
would
say
is
that
in
our
company
and
in
a
lot
of
other
companies,
the
only
people
who
qualify
for
these
micro
loans
are
individuals
who
are
gainfully
employed
and
have
an
income
derived
from
employment.
D
So
that
wasn't
the
question:
can
you
tell
me
there
are
three
recommendations
before
the
committee?
The
first
is
with
respect
to
a
broader
financial
institution.
The
second
are
some
technical
amendments,
including
adapting
to
the
25
ward
model
and
then
the
request
of
the
ontario
government.
Do
you
have
any
concerns
with
any
of
those
three
items.
G
Well,
I
do
yes,
and,
and-
and
my
number
one
concern
is
reducing
the
number
two
of
225
licenses.
First
of
all,
I
don't
think
there
should
be
a
cap
on
the
number
of
licenses,
all
at
all,
it's
very
anti-competitive
and
it
doesn't
allow
for
smaller
companies
like
ours
to
come
in
and
service
the
consumer
better
than
the
the
bigger
guys,
the
money
marts
and
the
cash
monies
who
clearly
are
benefiting
from
this
bylaw.
G
A
G
A
G
Absolutely
it
sure
has
nothing
to
do
with
with
payday
lenders
wanting
to
lend
to
children,
because
I
can
assure
you
that
the
loans
are
only
issued
to
those
of
people
who
are
over
the
age
of
18..
It
may
have
something
more
to
do
with
the
fact
that
payday
lenders
want
to
be
where
the
community
is
and
serve
the
community
where
they're
most
needed
and
where
they're
already
traveling.
So
that's
why
you'll
see
payday
lenders
going
and
building
stores
near
banks
and
near
dense
areas
or
dense
communities?
G
Not
most
businesses
again,
these
businesses
are
around
malls,
such
as
yorkdale
sherway,
gardens
again
they're
in
dense
populated
areas.
I
think
the
the
major
problem
is
there
there
there's
this
old
school
old
train
of
thought
old
paradigm,
where
years
ago,
over
25
years
ago,
before
the
payday
loan
was
introduced
in
canada
and
ontario,
where
predominantly
money
mark
operated
in
neighborhoods,
where
there
were
not
banks
and
they
predominantly
provided
a
service.
G
What's
called
check,
cashing
mostly
to
individuals
who
were
under
banked
and
couldn't
get
a
bank
account
at
the
time,
pre-banking
legislation
and
and
and
had
where
they
had
issues
with
cashing
their
check
where
the
bank
would
hold
their
checks
for
five
to
ten
business
days.
That's
no
longer
the
case
and
that's
no
longer
the
the
primary
client
of
these
industries,
and
so
that
is
an
old
paradigm
where
you
would
see
money
marts
popping
up
in
in
poorer
neighborhoods
in
neighborhoods,
where
the
banks
had
left
and
that's
no
longer
the
case.
G
Now,
if
you
look
at
at
this
industry,
these
predicted,
in
particular
our
stores,
are,
are
in
in
all
sorts
of
neighborhoods
they're
they're
in
vaughan,
they're
in
richmond
hill
they're
they're
in
cambridge
they're,
they're,
all
throughout
toronto
and
they're,
not
specifically
targeting
any
level
of
neighborhood.
I
specifically
pick
the
locations
for
my
company
and
I'm
not
going
after
low-income
neighborhoods
we're
going
after
dense
populations
where
there's
a
lot
of
working-class
individuals.
Most
of
our
clients
are
police
officers,
firefighters,
nurses,
they're,
highly
educated.
A
H
I
I
H
I
So
that
was,
I
think
they
refer
to
the
city
of
ottawa
and
they're
referred
to
one
kilometer
from
schools.
I'm
not
sure
if
my
colleagues
are
on
from
city
planning
if
they
want
to
jump
in,
but
it's
just
something
that
we
have
discussed
with
them
and
they
have
not
supported
it.
But
if,
if
corolla
is
on
the
line
from
the
zoning
team,
I
would
defer
this
particular
question
to
her.
H
I
I
The
way
it
stands
now
is
that
you
can't
have
a
new
applicant,
but
if
an
applicant
again
for
some
of
the
examples
that
have
been
used,
if
it's
a
renovation
or
a
lease
comes
to
up-
and
there
is
space
in
that
word-
they
can
relocate
to
a
different
part
in
that
ward.
But
there
aren't
new
applicants
and
you
can't
go
beyond
the
cap.
I
I
I
H
D
D
I
Thank
you
for
the
question.
I
think
you've
characterized
it
well
that
it
is
mainly
you
know,
three
requests
to
the
province
that
they
want
to
look
into
this.
The
technical
pieces
are
related
to
again
the
awards
going
from
44
to
25..
So
it's
a
cleanup
piece,
you're
right.
What's
before
committee,
is
to
continue
with
the
cap
system.
D
So
so,
if
anything
today,
like
I'm
looking
at
my
ward,
for
example,
out
in
the
west
end,
you
know
there
there
were
it
used
to
be
two
pieces
right
by
by
creating
25
wards.
Doesn't
that
even
give
the
industry
even
more
flexibility,
because
the
cop
is
within
the
borders
of
the
ward?
So,
theoretically
you
know
the
numbers
gel
together,
but
there's
even
more
places
to
go
like.
I
would
have
thought
that
would
have
been
a
welcome
change
by
the
industry.
I
D
So
a
large
award
is
actually
in
favor
of
the
industry.
I'm
not
saying
it's
a
radical
change,
but
it
it
provides
a
bit
more
flexibility.
We're
not
we're
not
changing
the
cap
in
any
other
way,
as
as
what
was
asserted
like
these
are
like
really
technical
changes
to
some
rules
that
went
in
a
long
time
ago.
Can
you
tell
me
how
many
relocation
requests
have
there
been
in
the
last
year.
I
D
So
yeah
so
you
mentioned,
I
mean
some
cl.
Some
stores
have
have
closed
down
and
gone
on
a
business,
and
so
there's
no
license
a
new
one
being
added,
but
really
in
terms
of
relocation.
There's
been
three
across
the
city
and
staff
generally
handle
those
I
mean
I
know,
there's
some
concerns
about
allowing
these
businesses
to
move
without
too
much
difficulty
and
but
but
there's
a
process
around
that
we're
continuing
to
allow
that.
D
And
maybe
my
last
question
or
comment
is,
is
what
is
I
should
say
question
this
is
question
time:
what
is
your
findings
on
the
effect
of
the
internet
and
non-brick-and-mortar
payday
loans
with
it
with
its
effect
on
the
industry
competitiveness?
Can
we
even
regulate
that
as
a
city?
Do
we
even
want
to
regulate
that
as
a
city?
Is
that
also
also
somehow
linked
to
these
places,
closing
down
the
brick
and
mortar
closing
down.
I
Yeah,
so
online
lending
is
a
challenge.
It
is
something
that
is
happening.
It
is
not
under
the
city's
jurisdiction
to
regulate
it's,
it's
provincially
regulated.
So
that's.
Why,
again,
with
the
three
asks
that
we
have
that
it's
important
for
the
province
to
tighten
up
their
regulations
as
this
business
shifts.
J
Thank
you
carlton
hello
counselor.
So,
yes,
the
direction
was,
and
the
plan
was
for
us
to
have
those
discussions
through
the
early
part
of
this
year.
However,
given
the
impacts
of
kovid,
it
was
very
difficult
for
us
to
be
able
to
get
access
to
the
financial
institutions
to
have
the
robust
conversation
that
we
you
had
intended
for
us
to
have.
So
the
plan
in
the
report
is
for
us
to
try
again
in
early
2021..
J
Like
we're
successful
but
we'll
be
reporting
back
with
the
q2
report
of
the
poverty
reduction
strategy,
that
will
go
to
economic
development
committee,
but
certainly
if
this
committee-
and
it
will
would
obviously
go
to
council
for
all
of
your
participation.
But
if
the
city
would
like
a
specific
report,
you
could
certainly
direct
us
to
do
so.
C
Thanks
and
then
I
just
a
question
about
the
numbers
and
moving
within
boards,
and
I
tend
to
agree
with
planning
that
you
know
it
becomes
problematic
to
have
too
much
in
the
way
of
limiting
distances,
and
that
kind
of
thing.
How
does
that
differ
from
you
know?
Legally,
I
guess
how
does
that
differ
from
a
maximum
per
ward.
I
C
C
K
So
excuse
me
so
there
there
have
been
in
the
past,
so
there
is
a
separation
distance
option
which
you
know
provided
that
that
minimum
separation
distance
is
met.
There
would
be
no.
You
know
you
could
presumably
have
many
located
in
one
area
provided
that
that
distance
is
maintained
and
then
there's
also
been.
You
know,
I
believe,
in
some
areas
with
limitations
on
bars
and
restaurants,
where
there's
an
absolute
cap
in
terms
of
the
number
that
can
be
located
in
an
area.
K
So
in
that
case
there's
no
sort
of
geographic
separation,
but
there
is
an
overall
cap
on
the
number
that
may
be
located
in
any
one
area,
but
they
could
be
located
all
you
know
on
one
block,
for
example,
as
long
as
that,
whatever
the
cap
is
for
the
area
is
maintained,
so
those
are
presumably
two
options
that
there
are.
I
I
don't
think
city
planning
would
would
would
recommend
either
one
of
those
in
terms
of
using
zoning
as
a
tool
to
achieve
that.
K
Simply
because
zoning
is
something
that
the
planning
act
tells
us.
You
know
we
need
to
use
for
regulating
land
uses
and
their
impacts
in
terms
of
whatever
the
land
use,
impacts
may
be,
and
our
analysis
and
our
experience
has
shown
that,
in
terms
of
land
use
impacts,
I'm
not
talking
about
social
impacts,
but
land
use
impacts.
C
J
J
Those
are
limited,
so,
on
the
other
side
of
the
equation,
we
certainly
see
a
need
to
increase
options
for
people
and
and
the
education
of
those
options
that
if
people
have
low
or
no
barrier
access
to
other
financial
tools
that
are
far
less
costly
to
them,
our
hope
is
that
most
people
would
choose
to
use
traditional
financial
institutions,
including
credit
unions,
etc
rather
than
these
establishments,
especially
when
right
now
from
our
understanding.
A
lot
of
it
is
about
lack
of
options.
H
Yeah,
just
on
that
question
above
the
distance,
so
what
would
you
recommend?
I'm?
I
know
staff.
You
know
what
we
want
to
accomplish
here
on
on
this
issue,
because
this
is
a
real
issue
in
in
the
city
for
us
to
ask
the
provincial
government,
like
I
I'd
like
to
go
further
on
this
issue.
So
what
what
would
you
recommend?
H
I
Issue
and
so
I'll
start
and
then
turn
it
over
to
corolla.
But
I
think
I
think
the
the
cap
is
a
tool
that
is
working.
It's
showing
that
it's
working
that
natural
attrition
is
happening,
but
it's
also
important,
as
denise
mentioned,
that
there
is
a
need
for
these
types
of
services
and
then
I'll
turn
it
to
corolla,
because
corolla
before
you
could
get
on
the
counselor
wasn't
able
to
to
get
the
answer
on
the
zoning
on
the
distance
requirements.
So
if
you
just
elaborate
on
the
distance
requirements.
K
Sure,
sorry,
I
was
having
trouble
with
my
audio,
so
in
terms
of
the
separation
distance,
as
I
mentioned,
it's
not
our.
It's
not
staff's
recommendation
that
separation
distance
is
a
appropriate
tool
in
this
case
in
terms
of
land.
Mitigating
land
use
impacts
for
this
use.
If
we
were
to
use
separation
distance
through
zoning,
we
would
need
to
have
a
very
specific
demonstration
of
what
the
land
use
impact
is
in
this
case
and
in
terms
of
a
land
use
impact.
K
In
many
instances
I
would
say
in
planning
in
general,
we
are
moving
away
from
separation
distances.
You
may
recall
in
2000
2019
council
adopted
to
eliminate
the
separation
distance
requirements
that
were
in
place
for
municipal
shelters.
There
really
isn't
a
lot
of
instances
in
our
zoning
bylaws
anyways,
where
separation
distances
are
still
in
place,
and
that
is
mostly
because
it
is
hard
to
distinguish
their.
K
I
guess
effectiveness
in
terms
of
mitigating
land
use
impacts,
and
the
only
instance
that
I
can
think
of
where
they
are
truly
appropriate
is
with
respect
to
industrial
uses
where
you
can
actually
measure
sort
of
impacts
of
you
know,
explosions
and
chemicals,
and
things
like
that.
So
where
the
actual
there
is
a
scientific
reason
for
having
those
and-
and
you
can
actually
demonstrate
what
the
the
land
use
impacts
would
be
in
terms
of
preventing
certain
impacts.
So
that
is
why
we're
not
recommending
that
separation
distances
be
used
in
this.
K
Sorry
and
it's
corolla
from
city
planning
again,
I
just
thought.
I
would
also
add
that,
in
terms
of
the
definition
of
the
land
use
itself,
there
really
is
no
distinction
between
a
payday
loan
or
payday
loan
establishment
and
a
financial
institution.
They
are
defined
as
the
same
use.
So
by
applying
a
separation
distance.
In
this
case,
we
would
also
potentially
be
applying
it
to
all
financial
institutions.
It's
a
very
fine
line
in
terms
of
how
we
would
even
apply.
A
Okay,
all
right,
seeing
no
other
questions,
I
did.
I
don't
know
if
this
is
into
denise
or
corona.
Could
you
explain
to
me
so
in
the
report?
It
says
that
the
putting
consumers
first
act
of
2017
provided
municipalities
with
authority
to
limit
the
number
and
location
of
payday
loan
establishments,
which
is
one
thing
we're
looking
at
today
and
then
around
zoning
you
payday,
loan
establishments
are
lumped
in
with
banks
and
credit
credit
unions
under
the
zoning
bylaw.
K
Yes,
that's
correct.
Counselor,
the
definitions
in
the
city
of
wide
zoning
by
law
are
quite
broad,
so
it
I'm
just
trying
to
pull
it
up,
but
it
talks
about
very
broadly
in
terms
of
financial.
Sorry,
let
me
just
get
there,
so
it's
a
a
that
provides
financial
services
to
the
to
the
public.
Essentially,
so
it's
a
very
broad
definition.
L
E
A
Okay
and
then
the
last
time
that
we
discussed
this
one
of
the
motions
that
was
passed,
there
was
four
or
five
items
that
city
council
requested
the
federal
government
to
look
into
different
things,
such
as
having
requiring
charter
banks
to
have
branches
in
low-income
neighborhoods
was.
Was
there
any
response
back
from
the
federal
government
on
those
requests.
A
A
H
Okay,
thank
you.
So,
as
you
know
this,
I
started
this
in
2016.
Actually,
it
goes
back
quite
a
few
years
where
I
brought
forward
a
number
of
motions
to
counsel
on
the
payday
loans
and
and
also
at
the
same
time,
I
made
a
a
presentation
to
the
province
as
well.
So
I
understand
that
what
we
have
today
is
just
technical
changes.
H
I
know
that
was
my
ward,
and
I
believe
it
was
in
scarborough
as
well
is
the
where
we
had
the
number
of
toronto
community
housing
buildings,
that's
where
they
were
located.
The
majority
of
the
of
these
establishments
targeting
the
most
vulnerable
and
that's
why
we
as
a
comedian
as
a
council,
brought
forward
these
recommendations,
and
I
know
that
I
can.
I
can
speak
on
behalf
of
my
community-
it's
not
it's
not
to
it.
Just
the
consumers.
H
It's
the
community
itself,
when
you
have
have
a
number
of
payday
loans
in
in
an
area
within
blocks
of
each
other,
four
or
five
of
them
located
in
and
where
there's
a
high
density,
and
most
of
them
is
near
toronto.
Housing,
buildings
and
that's
why
we
have
the
problem
is
that
you
know
that
there
is
a
an
outrage
by
the
community
on.
You
know
we're
targeting
the
most
vulnerable
and
as
well.
H
It
doesn't
help
in
some
of
these
communities
where
they're
trying
to
revitalize
these
communities
and
bia
areas
where
they're
having
difficulty
as
well.
So
I
know
that
some
of
the
deputies
targeted
me
as
being
the
leader
and-
and
I
don't
care
really.
I
would
like
to
actually
to
close
a
number
of
them
down,
but
that
would
be
difficult
to
do
so.
I'm
I'm
not!
H
I'm
not
going
to
hide
the
fact
that
I
don't
support
it
and,
in
particular
my
ward
and
I'm
sure
other
counselors
have
similar
issues
in
their
award.
As
far
as
the
the
distance
it's
you
know,
the
staff
have
commented
on
that.
I
wish
we
could
have
done
more
on
that
issue.
Possibly
we
can
ask.
We
cannot
staff
to
come
back
with
that.
As
far
as
far
as
the
the
the
numbers
and
the
capping
and
the
wards
and
counselor
holiday
actually
you're
correct.
H
Now
we
have
the
the
the
new
awards
that
in
fact
we
could
see
a
number
more
establishments
located
in
the
wards
because
the
words
are
bigger
as
well.
So
you
know-
and
that
was
an
interesting
point
as
well,
so
the
recommendations
we
have
before
us
are
technical
recommendations
which
I
support.
I
just
wish
that
we
could
do
more,
but
I
understand
the
staff
commenting
on
these
issues.
H
D
D
It's
legitimate,
it's
allowed
under
the
law.
It's
also
compartmentalized.
You
can
only
get
a
loan
that
is
so
large
and
there
are
a
bunch
of
rules
around
it.
The
thing
that
scares
me
is
when
people
go
and
obtain
multiples
of
those,
and
we
learned
before
that.
There
are
ways
that
people
can
defeat
the
system
to
do
that,
and
I'm
not
saying
that
the
payday
loan
companies
do
this
on
purpose.
D
It's
just
that
having
those
locations
really
close
together
means
the
person
can
go
and
shop
around,
and
I
don't
know
how
they
do
it
if
they
use
different
names
or
you
know
how
they
how
they
make
this
happen.
So
that
is
a
risk
factor,
and
that
is
something
that's
that's
it's
hard
for
the
anyone
else
to
control.
So
we
should
think
about
that.
D
But
just
as
a
general
principle,
I
don't
like
over-regulating
things.
You
know.
One
of
the
assertions
today
was
that
the
city
should
get
into
the
business
of
providing
micro
loans
like
I
just
don't
see
that
with
using
property
taxpayers.
Money
to
do
these
again
are
federal
and
provincial
concerns,
so
the
staff
have
provided
recommendations.
There's
a
capping
system,
that's
not
new,
it's
not
a
new
concept.
D
There
are
other
industries
that
we
regulate
through
capping
systems
and
some
of
the
outcomes
is
they
help
with
the
disbursement
across
the
city,
and
you
know
I
was
surprised
that
the
speakers
came
because
you
know
my
read
of
the
recommendations
here,
although
not
a
radical
plus.
I
think
it
is
actually
a
help
for
them,
because
if
the
wards
were
this
big
and
there
there
was
a
certain
number
of
them
allowed
in
there.
The
new
wards
are
now
twice
the
size.
D
But
you
know
also
knowing
that
only
three
of
them
moved
in
the
last
year:
I'm
not
really
sure
that
that
happens
very
often,
but
it's
there.
So
those
are
my
comments,
mr
cherry.
I
will
be
supporting
these
recommendations
and
I
appreciate
the
work
that
the
staff
have
put
into
this,
because
I
know
it's
a
very
difficult
subject,
especially
when
the
bulk
of
the
regulation
sits
with
other
orders
of
government.
Thank
you.
C
Just
quickly,
I'm
I'm
kind
of
stumped.
I
would
certainly
like
to
impose
more
regulations,
but
I
do
agree
with
planning
and
I'm
I
just
can't
think
of
a
good
way
to
do
this.
If
I
come
up
with
something
between
now
and
council,
I'll
perhaps
suggest
an
amendment
then,
but
for
today
I
don't
have
a
better
solution
than
adopting
the
staff
recommendations.
A
A
So
the
first
motion
I
would
like
to
move
is
that
city
council
requests
the
chief
planner
to
report
to
the
planning
and
housing
committee
on
the
necessary
steps
to
require
to
amend
the
zoning
classification
for
payday
loans
to
remove
them
from
the
category
governing
banks
and
credit
unions,
and
the
report
include
requirements
needed
for
municipalities
to
cover
over
payday
loan
establishments,
including
regulations
on
their
location
and
spacing
the
second
part
of
motion
b.
It's
the
same
as
I
had
last
time.
A
The
city
council
forward
this
item
to
the
association
of
the
municipalities
of
ontario
and
the
federation
of
canadian
municipalities,
and
then
my
third
motion
c
has
to
do
with
the
federal
government
and
it
was
a
request
that
we
same
request
that
we
made
two
years
ago.
Basically,
asking
for
charter
banks
to
have
branches
in
low-income
neighborhoods,
create
a
national
database
of
pay
loan
establishments
to
stop
users
from
taking
out
loans
to
pay
off.
A
A
They
have
all
have
a
high
density
and
they
all
come
with
payday
loan
establishments.
I
will
take
issue
with
the
words
of
one
of
the
deputies.
That
said,
they
only
target
their
establishments
towards
high
density
areas,
because
I
can
take
members
of
the
committee
and
the
deputies
to
the
high
density
areas
in
my
ward,
which
consists
solely
of
condominiums,
and
you
cannot
find
a
payday
loan
establishment
anywhere
near
them.
A
I
will
take
you
to
the
loan
to
the
schools
that
are
within
or
adjacent
to
my
neighborhood
improvement
areas,
and
once
again
I
will
show
you
the
payday
loan
establishments.
I
will
take
issue
with
the
words
of
one
of
the
deputies
as
well.
Is
that
they're
not
targeting
these
establishments
to
schools?
The
people
going
to
pick
up
their
children
are
not
looking
for
loans,
they
probably
aren't,
but
the
children,
on
the
other
hand,
get
to
look
at
the
different
law
advertisements
and
they're
asking
for
things
from
their
parents.
A
The
only
time
I've
received
police
officers
going
into
payday
loan
establishments
they're
going
in
in
uniform,
and
it's
not
for
a
loan.
So
I
think
we
really
need
to
look
at
opportunities
for
more
stringent
regulations
over
payday
loan
establishments,
which
is
where
my
one
motion
comes
from
around
spacing.
A
A
I'm
often
complaining
to
our
licensing
department
around
the
illegal
signs
that
payday
loan
establishments
put
up
on
their
boulevards
on
the
fences
near
them.
I
I
think
a
lot
more
needs
to
be
done
and
that's
why
I'm
putting
these
motions
forward
and
I
hope
the
committee
will
support
them.
Thank
you.
D
If
I
may
ask
consistent
with
what
I
did
the
last
time
these
were
put
forward,
I
would
like
to
vote
on
the
item
regarding
the
interest
rate
from
60
to
30
percent
annually
separately.
I
just,
I
think
it
has
unintended
consequences.
So
if
I
could
just
ask
the
clerk
to
separate
that
item
out,
I
don't
need
a
recorded
vote
on
anything
else,
except
for
that.
One
item.
A
B
B
B
B
D
D
A
M
Good
morning
again,
thanks
for
addressing
this
issue,
the
issue
here,
vehicles
for
hiring
covet,
19,
related
financial
hardship,
extending
the
life
of
vehicles
to
eight
model
years
for
taxis-
and
this
is
the
only
item
recommended
by
staff-
for
the
relief
options
to
be
considered,
offers
no
relief
to
anyone,
but
those
who
have
vehicles
coming
up
for
replacement
soon
and
they'll
still
have
to
replace
them
next
year.
So
I'm
not
sure
how
this
offers
real
financial
relief,
if
any
it
offers.
M
No
relief
for
drivers
who
have
purchased
vehicles
in
the
last
couple
of
years
offers
nothing
to
those
who
have
parked
their
vehicles
because
of
insurance
rates.
You
know
in
some
cases
that
have
gone
up
from
six
thousand
to
fifteen
thousand
dollars
a
year.
Many
affected
by
this
will
continue
to
have
to
pay
renewal
fees,
even
though
they're
not
operating,
and
the
same
applies
for
those
who
are
off
due
to
covid
related
concerns.
M
Vehicles
are
already
too
old.
It
was
not
long
ago
that
the
commercial
transportation
vehicles
had
to
be
no
more
than
five
years
old
and
had
to
be
met
with
environmental
restrictions.
It
was
literally
in
response
to
vehicles
being
too
old
to
be
road,
worthy
passenger
and
driver
worthy
for
the
safe,
safe
operation.
M
This
recommendation
adds
life
to
cars
that
are
already
too
old
and
is
in
direct
conflict
with
the
city's
environmental
goals
serves
to
attract
more
ptc
drivers
with
older
cars
to
further
flood
our
streets.
This,
when
ptc
vehicles
aren't
even
licensed,
so
they
don't
pay
anything
for
the
privilege.
Last
I
checked
toronto.
License
fees
are
the
highest
in
north
america,
maybe
the
world
others
in
different
toronto
industries,
pay
similar
fees,
tow
trucks,
food
trucks,
I
believe,
but
they're
able
to
set
their
own
rates
for
their
services.
M
Taxi
drivers
are
unable
to
do
that
in
response
to
the
changing
landscape
as
well.
Unlike
in
these
other
license
groups,
municipal
licensing
and
standards
and
council
introduced
a
two-tiered
system
for
commercial
passenger
services.
Further
taxi
operators
are
the
only
ones
being
asked
to
move
covid,
19,
probable
or
positive
cases,
with
no
incentive
to
do
so,
while
other
municipalities
in
north
america
see
taxi
drivers
receiving
protective
shields,
ppe
and
premium
fees
of
up
to
fifty
dollars
per
trip.
M
The
city
of
toronto
has
a
taxi
system.
Ptc
companies
have
their
own
systems
that
don't
belong
to
the
city.
The
way
taxis
do
the
city
should
not
only
be
promoting
taxi
services
made
up
of
hardworking
small
business
operators.
They
should
be
offering
relief
for
the
services
they're,
providing
on
behalf
of
the
city
during
these
hard
times,
taking
responsibility
for
moving
vulnerable
citizens
to
their
medical
and
other
essential
appointments
in
a
safe
and
professional
way.
M
Licensed
renewal
is
the
only
thing
that
touches
every
driver
and
every
taxi
owner.
This
is
the
area
where
relief
should
be
applied
to
prevent
the
further
degradation
by
allowing
older
vehicles
to
operate
a
lifeline
that
exists
for
vulnerable
citizens
in
the
city
and
employees
who
used
to
gainfully
employ
thousands
of
taxi
drivers,
we're
all
experiencing
a
financial
impact
all
but
the
city
in
this
case
that
has
shown
zero
support
for
taxi
drivers.
A
N
M
So
I
would
suggest
my
best
guess
would
be
about
75
percent.
I
think
actually,
municipal
licensing
and
standards
staff
would
have
a
better
idea.
Anyone
who
is
using
facility
to
insure
their
vehicles,
which
is
liability
only
coverage.
Those
are
the
individuals
who
have
seen
their
insurance
rates
go
up.
You
know
it's
a
it's
a
huge
majority,
I
would
say
of
the
industry.
M
The
reason
for
this
is
that,
due
to
some
regulatory
issues
and
we're
working
trying
to
work
with
the
province
to
get
some
changes
made,
there
is
not
interest
in
taking
on
taxis
for
commercial,
auto
insurance,
and
it
just
seems
as
though
commercial
auto
insurance
is
being
negatively
impacted
across
sectors
and
not
just
in
toronto.
It's
it's
across
the
province
for
sure
there
is
really
only
one
insurer
or
two
insurers
left
and,
and
they
could
pull
out
of
this
industry
at
any
moment.
So
anyone
who's
with
those
two.
N
So
really,
what
we're
seeing
is
that
there's
two
insurance
companies
that
provide
commercial
insurance
for
taxi
drivers.
This
insurance
is
not
applicable.
Commercial
insurance
is
not
applicable
to,
for
example,
private
vehicles
such
as
ubers
and
lyfts.
They
do
not
need
to
pay
for
commercial
insurance.
Is
that
correct?
That's.
M
Well,
number
one
is
that
taxi
vehicles
first,
of
course
the
commercial
insurance
piece
is
the
is
the
biggest
piece
there
is
the
requirement
for
a
camera
inside
the
vehicles.
Now
I
know
at
last
year's
council
meeting
you
know
or
in
the
newest
bylaw
they
were
deleting
the
definition
of
a
camera,
but
nobody
really
knows
what
that
means.
They
still
right
now
have
to
have
operating
cameras.
They
have
to
have
a
taxi
meter.
Obviously
they
must.
You
know,
have
log
books
to
show
municipal
licensing
enforcement
officers.
M
Who's
been
driving
the
vehicle
they
have
to.
You
know
they're.
Actually
you
know
the
licensing
renewal
fees.
The
vehicles
have
to
be
licensed
where
ptc
vehicles
don't
even
have
to
carry
a
license.
So
I'm
not
sure
why
they're
included
in
this
issue
of
financial
relief
when
it
comes
to
license
renewal
fees,
but
because
they
don't
pay
any
yeah.
N
M
So
I've
heard
since
the
pandemic
started
that
tens
of
thousands,
more
ptc
drivers
have
been
added
and
for
a
ptc
driver
that
also
that
that
counts
as
a
vehicle,
and
you
know
it
seems
to
me
that
this
is
what
uber
had
sort
of
lobbied
for
right
from
the
beginning.
They
wanted
10
year
old
vehicles
and
essentially
an
8
model
year
old
car.
M
That's
a
10
year
old
car,
so
they're
getting
exactly
what
they
want.
It
invites
more
of
these
ptc
vehicles
and
who
knows
in
the
tens
of
thousands
more
or
just
allows
all
the
older
vehicles
to
stay
on
the
road.
We
know
that
50
percent
of
ptc
drivers
are
full-time
drivers.
This
idea
that
they're
only
out
on
the
road
every
here-
and
there
is
just
not
the
case,
and
if
we
want
to
take
that
approach,
taxi
drivers
work
part-time
too.
M
A
D
Chair
and
thank
you
to
ms
albert
for
speaking
to
us-
I
just
I
want
to
be
make
sure.
I
understand
this
exactly
there's
one
recommendation
before
us
which
you
identified
and
that
is
to
extend
the
life
of
the
vehicle
and
the
eligibility
of
the
vehicle
by
a
year
and
is
it
have.
I
got
this
correct
that
you
are
opposed
to
that
recommendation.
M
I'm
opposed
to
that
recommendation.
You
know
for
a
couple
of
reasons.
I
guess
the
first
reason
is
that
it
just
allows
council
to
ignore
ways
in
which
they
can
actually
help
taxi
drivers
in
the
industry
and
and
ways
that
can
offer
relief
to
all
of
them.
This
recommendation,
of
course,
costs
the
city
nothing.
So
this
is
one
reason
why
it's
being
recommended,
but
it
also
you
know
it's
it's
in
conflict
with
every
environmental
goal
that
the
city
has
committed
to,
but
it
also
only
helps
a
small
segment
of
the
taxi
industry.
M
This
would
be
people
who
may
not
ever
be
planning
on
on
replacing
a
vehicle
and
they'll
keep
the
old
cars
they
have
for
another
year
and
then
they'll
walk
away.
So
I
don't
believe
that
this
is
helping
operators,
especially
because
so
many
have
just
purchased
vehicles.
Last
year
this
year
it
doesn't
offer
any
financial
relief
to
those.
D
Now
you
mentioned
something
in
your
in
your
speaking
that
your
company
charges
the
drivers
a
fee.
That's
right,
how
does
how
does
that
work?
So,
do
you
do
you
own
cars
or
do
you
have
people
that
own
cars
and
then
then
you
have
a
a
value.
Add
to
it.
How
do
you,
how
do
you
figure
out
what
you
you
charge?
A
driver,
a
fee
for.
M
M
Each
taxi
that
you
see
on
the
road
is
an
independent
small
business
licensed
by
the
city
of
toronto,
and
they
hire
us
essentially
for
our
marketing
services
and
for
access
to
our
dispatch
trips,
they're
still
able
to
work
the
street
so
to
speak
and
and
take
flag
fares
and
arrange
their
own,
their
own
pickups.
So
essentially,
we
have
just
a
monthly
flat
sort
of
fee
per
vehicle
that
we
charge
every
month
and
we
reduced
our
fees
by
50
for
six
months
so
far
and
we'll
further.
M
You
know
really
come
from
insurance
again,
which
is
a
requirement
of
the
city,
and
I
don't
believe
it
should
be
sort
of
degraded
like
so
many
other
safety
and
and
and
regulation
have
been
have
been
applied
to
this
industry.
But
we've
got
to
come
up
with
ways
to
make
sure
they
can
make
it
through
this
pandemic
and
extending
the
age
of
vehicles
really
isn't
the
way.
M
Yes,
we
do
not
own
so
essentially
throughout
you
know,
if
you
remember,
you
know
the
the
uber
taxi
wars
as
they
were
called.
It
was
very
easy
for
for
bec
in
particular,
we
could
position
ourselves
as
offering
the
same
service
with
more
as
these
ptc
companies
do,
but
the
drivers
have
so
much
more
power
as
owners
and
business
operators
to
to
manage
themselves,
and
this
is
why
we
were
shocked
in
the
end
that
we
were
treated
so
differently.
D
M
It
work
it's
all
the
same,
so
during
the
we
offer
senior
discounts.
Obviously
we
have
a
lot
of
drivers
who
are
over
the
age
of
60,
so
we
offer
senior
discount
it's
a
flat
rate
that
we
charge
per
month
per
vehicle.
So
the
more
you
work,
essentially
the
less
you
pay
as
opposed
to
a
ptc
model
where
the
more
you
work,
the
more
you
pay.
D
M
M
Yeah
we
try
to
supplement
the
business
that,
yes,
exactly,
that
they
are
are
trying
to
build
okay
and
it's
significantly
harder
with
the
introduction
of
companies
that
are
allowed
to
dispatch
essentially
to
any
private
vehicle
that
feels
like
it
wants
to
be
out
on
the
road.
While
we
are
subject
to
sticking
to
the
smaller
number
of
vehicles,
which
I
I
agree
with,
because
this
is
what
keeps
people
able
to
make
a
living
and
when
we
flooded
our
streets
with
these,
you
know
essentially
well,
they
are
on
licensed
vehicles
on
regulated
vehicles.
M
A
O
O
Christina
harvard
explained
it
very
well,
just
only
one
issue
that
we
don't
argue
with
it,
so
to
go
on
my
comment
or
my
concern.
First
of
all,
I'd
like
to
ask
apologies
for
my
english,
because
english
language
is
a
second
language,
and
hopefully
you
can
understand
me-
and
this
is
not
economically
after
my
speech,
so
we're
I
present
myself,
I'm
a
taxi
driver.
I've
been
in
the
industry
for
the
last
30
years
over.
O
Actually
so
there's
so
much
changes,
but
this
one
is
a
very
critical
time
for
us
to
deal
with.
Actually
I'm
driving
in
a
reference
operating
which
we
are
serving
at
ttc,
so
we
provided.
We
submitted
our
letter
to
the
counselors
and
to
the
mayor
by
that
we
state
and
believe
that
the
pandemic
that
has
been
for
a
while,
since
march,
really
experts
now
by
saying
that
this
will
lead
to
the
massive
negative
impact
on
the
world
economy
and
businesses.
O
So,
throughout
this
duration,
it
could
be
even
as
far
as
2022,
we
don't
even
know.
Some
experts
suggest
that
so
the
one-year
extension
that
we
that
was
recommended.
We
agree
with
that.
We
I
consult
that,
with
the
doctor
doesn't
mandate
that
that's
supposed
to
be
a
long
time
ago,
even
because
other
cities
in
the
united
states,
they
have
a
10
years,
mandatory
vehicle,
so
the
environment
impact
that
christina
was
mentioning
our
cars
stopped
since
march,
we're
not
working
presently.
O
So
we
are
only
working
one
days
or
two
days,
so
taxi
industry
was
chosen
by
ptc
because
they
are
24
7
available
to
provide
the
service.
That
was
the
contract
they
have.
So
this
is
that
the
the
the
block
which
are
giving
us
a
subcontract
to
to
work
with
so
first
we
have
to
provide
every
what
they
call
the
d409
compliant
that
default
and
compliant.
O
The
car
has
to
be
acute
with
everything
that
is
for
accessibility,
ramp
inside
and
the
car
has
to
be
modified
and
some
cars
that
are
now
on
the
road
manufacturing
built
like
nv1
cars.
They
are
costing
very
high
about
eighty
thousand
dollars
to
start
with,
so
we
are.
We
are
investing
big
money
on
this
industry
as
a
driver
and
owner.
So
in
this
financial
impact
we
are
the
first
vulnerable
to
to
be
third
on
this
pandemic.
O
But
when
it
comes
to
this
issue,
we're
dealing
today
about
this
tax
industry,
as
christian
explained
it
it
is,
it
is
very
badly
where,
even
though
that
ninety
thousand
ptc
on
the
road,
they
were
supposed
to
be
more
impacted
with
the
environment
than
any
type
of
taxes
or
regulated
companies
heavily
and
regulated,
and
we're
spending
a
lot
of
money.
So
we've
been
affected
with
this
business
and
we
are
mostly
spending
our
savings
that
we
had
and
plus
now
we
are
going
to
the
credit
and
the
credit.
O
Our
credit
is
maxed
up
because
of
our
financial.
I
can
just
tell
you
remember
how
much
we
are
we're
spending
on
this
investment.
We
are
investing
close
to
five
thousand
dollars.
Well,
some
of
us
who
bought
the
car,
the
cost
us
fourteen
hundred
a
hundred
dollars
insurance,
one
thousand
dollars
a
month
and
fifteen
hundred
dollars
for
the
gas
and
other
maintenances
and
other
issues.
O
I
mean
other
expenses
that
includes
five
thousand
dollars,
and
can
you
imagine
we're
working
once
in
a
week
and
we're
getting
on
this
few,
like
maybe
five
percent
of
our
income
to
to
survive?
In
this
time
we've
been
surviving
so
far
with
our
own
credit
and
the
saving.
We
have
some
of
them,
even
they're,
being
flustered
and
they're
they're
staying
home,
their
car
was
sitting
so
since
the
car
is
sitting
since
december,
how
could
it
be
attached
to
the
environment?
It's
not
accelerating
the
kilometer.
O
Is
there
so
the
one
year
that
is
giving
us
extension
next
year,
2021
there
is
no
even
business.
This
is
not
guaranteeing
us
that
they're
going
to
provide
the
business
for
us
and
how
we
gonna
know
that
next
year,
that
is
the
extension
that
he's
giving
us.
You
know
to
make
money
and
to
buy
the
next
car
when
the
old
car
is
going
out
the
road.
So
that's
what.
O
O
It
could
be
amended
by
you
too.
So
if
we
give
us
a
two-year
time
to
get
a
release
and
to
record
again
to
to
get
back
in
the
feed
that
we
can
buy
the
car
for
the
next
time.
So
that's
why
we're
asking
three
years.
So
we
don't
want
to
confuse,
because
the
counselor
seriously
doesn't
need
that
to
put
serious
age
on
the
car,
we're
asking
only
two
years
to
give
us
a
temporary
that
we
can
recover.
All
city
has
to
provide
some
of
amounts
that.
A
O
Okay,
so
what
we're
saying
is
our
our
car
is
on
the
ttl
or
the
van
the
ram
cars,
so
most
of
ttl
are
funded
by
the
government
for
the
conversion
of
the
for
the
car,
a
city
already
parked
by
local
back,
but
they
excluded
us,
the
city,
the
the
will
transcriber
and
well.
We
just
want
to
win
a
bit
of
that.
A
N
O
Yes,
thank
you,
the
accessible
taxi.
It
cost,
some
of
them,
of
course,
between
60
and
70
thousand
dollars
and
plus
other
other,
what
they
call
it:
the
conversion
and
the
mv
one
that
some
of
us
redriving
it
costs
from
eighty
thousand
dollars.
This
is
a
manufacturer
built
and
it's
a
very
brutal
car
that
is
running.
O
We
can
get
certificates
from
the
manufacturers
that
cost
I
mean
that
that
the
car
could
be
driven
in
next
20
years,
because
it's
that
double
trade,
it
is
manufactured
by
the
us
who
are
building
this,
what
you
call
it
the
native
armory
cars
building.
So
it's
very
strong
cars,
that's
what
we
invest
in.
We
invest
this
eighty
thousand
dollar
pass
and
some
of
the
votes
until
ninety
thousand
dollars.
O
Yes,
that's
what
is
going
to
happen?
If
the
recommendation
wasn't
to
kick
the
aim
now
we
were
going
to
be
very
challenged
with
the
financial
you,
so
my
car
is
listed,
for
example,
because
next
year,
around
the
end
of
the
year,
so
where
am
I
going
to
get
the
money
to
buy
if
I
want
to
buy
actually
same
cars
that
are
driving
it's
not
anymore
in
the
industry,
but
the
toyota
and
dodge
those
conversions
they're
expensive
too?
Like
I
mean
what
am
I
going
to
get
the
down
payment?
O
Yeah
there's
a
big
group,
the
financers,
so
they
just
deal
with
this
company
called
the
mobilities
bruno
and
some
of
the
companies
don't
know
the
name,
but
the
person,
a
marco
is
very
known.
They
they
changed
his
car
and
they
provided
you
with
the
group
of
the
financials
and
the
financially
giving
you
some
of.
I
forgot
how
many
percentage,
but
we
paying
like
every
month
my
car
cost
around
fourteen
thousand
dollars.
N
So
if
I
can't
I
just-
I
just
want
to
confirm
your
your
monthly
cost,
so
you
cited
that
it
costs
approximately
5
000
a
month
to
operate
your
accessible
cab
and
that's
one
thousand
dollars
a
month
for
the
commercial
insurance
that
you
have
to
pay
that
uber
and
lyft
does
not
have
to
pay
approximately
fifteen
hundred
dollars
to
fuel.
The
gas
tank
is
obviously
a
slightly
larger
vehicle,
and
then
you
cited
some
other
expenses
around
2500.
O
Yeah
1400
is
not
including
today,
it's
only
for
the
lease
fourteen
hundred
dollars
for
those
cars
that
were
selling
for
us.
They
put
us
with
the
financial
and
we
take
them
1400,
that's
a
loan,
so
that's
and
on
the
top
of
that,
the
issuance
and
on
the
top
of
that
fifteen
hundred
dollars
and
on
the
top
of
that
maintenance
and
other
things
so
that
that
included
everything.
Some
of
us
were
spending
five
thousand
dollars
a
month.
A
D
A
A
A
P
P
Where
that
you
know
kobe
19
has
stole
the
taxis,
and
many
of
them
are
parked
and
also
issue
of
the
insurance
that
many
of
the
taxi
owners
are
not
able
to
get
insurance
with
the
car,
so
the
cars
are
not
running
around
and
also
the
decisions
that
they
were
made
back
in
the
2016
as
a
result
of
those
decisions,
we
lost
a
large
part
of
our
business
to
the
ptc,
and
because
of
that,
we
were
not
driving
as
much
as
we
used
to
so.
The
mileage
on
the
cars
are
very
low.
P
P
P
P
The
other
thing
that
I
wanted
to
add
over
here
is
about
the
financial
responsibility
of
the
accessibility
reserve
fund.
This
needs
to
be
removed
from
the
non-accessible
vehicle
for
hire,
driver
members
and
that
taken
up
by
the
city
as
the
fund
came
about
because
of
an
over
issuance
of
the
on-demand
ttls
that
they
were
not
required.
P
So
all
of
these
stuff
that
I'm
talking
about.
I
hope
you
consider
them,
and
I
think
you
know
with
the
money
that
the
they
were
able
to
raise
in
the
last
few
years,
something
I
think
in
ballpark
of
a
46
million
dollar.
I
don't
think
so.
You
know
the
city
is:
is
going
to
get
really
affected
if
they
give
a
reduction
to
the
tax
industry
right
now,.
N
A
N
P
Absolutely
you
know
the
whether
the
cars
are
sitting
or
not.
I
mean
we
still
have
to
pay
for
our
insurance
and
if
you
are
lucky
and
you're
still
in
the
good
term,
with
the
insurance
company-
and
they
are
ensured,
you
you,
you
probably
pay
around
anywhere
from
5500
to
7
500
a
year.
So
you
you
still
have
those
costs.
N
Sorry,
I
thank
you.
Thank
you
for
clarifying
that,
but
I
I
guess
my
my
question
is
regarding
regular
maintenance.
Oil
checks
checking
the
the
brakes.
You
know
when
you
bring
your
vehicle
in
for
sure
yeah,
so
you
still
need
to
do
that.
Even
if
you
cannot
drive
your
car,
even
if
you
cannot
get
commercial
insurance
is
that
correct.
P
Absolutely
because
you
know
the
the
minute
you
know
you
have
the
car,
you
have
all
kinds
of
expenses,
you
know
when
sitting
you
have
to
pay
for
the
parking
is
parking.
You
know
the
you're
gonna
have,
you
know,
drive
it
around
a
little
bit.
You
know,
so
the
the
parts
doesn't
start
to
cease
right.
So
you
you
do
have
the
regular
maintenance
of
the
car,
the
gas
you
gotta
be
insurance.
You
gotta
pay
the
this
speed.
You
got
to
pay
parking
fee.
You
got
to
pay
car
bus.
P
D
Thank
you,
mr
kam
say:
can
you
help
me
understand
so
you
you
know
about
the
cost
to
own
a
vehicle
and
operate
it?
We
heard
about
insurance
and-
and
I
understand
that
the
insurance
is
changing
and
the
prices
are
going
up.
This
is
what
we've
been
told.
Can
you
tell
me
since
covid
started,
is
the
cost
to
run
a
taxi
cab
more
less
or
the
same.
P
P
It
has
diminished
right,
but
I
still
have
to
pay
the
insurance
and,
if
I'm
coming
to
the
road
and
driving
around
up
and
down
the
city,
I
still
need
you
know
to
put
gas
in
my
car.
I
still
need
to
you
know
the
do.
The
regular
maintenance
also
is
that
I
can
tell
you
for
sure.
I
go
on
the
road
myself
that
if
you
are
lucky,
if
you
are
lucky
to
book,
70
80
dollars
a
day
where
cost
of
running
a
taxi
cab
is
around
40
50
a
day.
P
No,
I
I
I
came
around,
you
know
I
go,
you
know
I
go
out,
I
go,
you
know
to
the
usual
spot,
you
know
I
go
to
union
state
and
I
would
you
know
there
is
there's
not
much
on
driving
around
on
the
streets.
There's!
Nobody!
Okay,
you
know
you
know.
Most
of
the
offices
are
are
not
working
right
and
there
are
no
other
events
in
the
city.
No
sports,
no
entertainment.
P
D
P
You
are,
you
are
eligible,
you
are
eligible,
you
know
to
get,
but
you
know
what
you
get
from
the
government
and
what
you
could
make
on
the
streets
is
still
you're
short.
You
know,
like
you
know,
as
I
say,
you
know
if
you
book
60
70
a
day
on
a
taxicab,
your
cost
of
running
a
taxi
cab
is
40
50
a
day.
So
it's
going
to
leave
you
with
20
bucks
right,
so
20
bucks
at
the
end
of
the
month.
P
D
A
kid
of
course,
of
course,
so
so
you
you
you
so
taxi,
I
guess
you're
you're
an
owner
of
a
taxi.
So
so
you
have
that
chance.
You
can
get
the
cerb.
Are
you
also
able
to
get
any
other
benefits
from
the
government?
Do
you
have
employees?
I
don't
know,
do
you
have
employees?
Are
you
able
to
get
wage
subsidies?
Those
types
of
things
no.
P
No,
I
don't
have
a,
I
don't
have
employees,
no,
we
are
a
one-man
show.
Okay
and
we
are.
We
are
trying
to
reach
out.
You
know
to
the
federal
government
and
ask
them
that
you
know
for
all
the
programs
that
they
have
for
the
businesses
they
forget.
They
forgot.
You
know
to
realize
that
taxi
is
also
a
business.
P
No,
no!
No!
So
we
are,
we
are
trying
to
talk
with
them.
See
if
you
know,
if
they
can,
you
know
somehow
make
the
taxi
industry
or
taxi
owners
eligible
to
some
of
the
programs.
You
know
if
if
we
are
a
business
and
if
we
are
paying,
you
know
gst
and
this
and
that
and
we
are
considered
to
be
a
business,
then
where
is
the
hub
for
this
business.
P
A
L
Thank
you
very
much.
First
of
all,
thank
you.
I
hope
everyone's
well
we're
always
back
here
looks
like
for
the
taxi
stuff.
I
I
was
actually
quite
disappointed
with
the
report
that
came
out
for
many
reasons,
but
the
majority
of
the
the
support
that
the
tax
industry
needs.
It
comes
in
that
and
from
from
the
city
right.
L
We're
supposed
to
go
on
cost
recovery
and
cost
recovery
in
in
in
the
tax
industry
has
has
basically
for
us
the
services
we
used
to
get
have
significantly
declined
compared
to
what
we
were
getting
four
or
five
years
ago.
Pre
pre,
ptc's,
just
a
few
of
the
services
that
have
not
been
provided
anymore,
is
inspections
that
they
used
to
provide
twice
a
year.
L
If
your
car
is
has
no
issues
and
that's
submitted
through
email
and
also
we
have
to
pay
our
renewal
fee
which
we're
asking
right
now
to
waive
for
for
the
previous
year
and
the
year
following
and
that's
paid
through
the
website,
and
that's
basically
the
two
only
interactions
we
have
with
the
city.
Now
the
city
might
say
that
we
have
some
inspectors
that
go
out
and
you
know
inspect
these
taxis
prior
to
ptc's.
We
used
to
have
significant
amount
of
inspectors
on
the
road
that
just
inspect
taxis.
L
And
also
one
of
the
one
of
the
things
that
I
would
say
is
that
when
we're,
when
we're
asking
for
the
renewal
fees
to
be
waived,
it's
because
majority
of
the
cars
are
parked.
My
myself!
Luckily,
since
february
14th,
all
of
my
cars
have
been
parked
because
I
could
not
get
insurance
and
this
is
pre-covered.
L
I
couldn't
get
insurance
and
after
when
you
know
covet
happened,
it
has
even
caused
even
more
of
a
devastation
ptc
vehicles.
By
the
other
hand,
if
they
don't
work,
they
don't
have
to
pay
because
they
pay
per
ride,
so
they
pay
a
certain
20
cents
or
30
cents
per
ride
that
they
pay
the
city.
If
they
work
and
if
they
don't
work,
they
don't
have
to
pay
a
dime.
So
if
their
car
is
parked
in
their
driveway,
they
are
not
responsible
to
pay
the
city
anything.
L
But
for
me,
that's
my
cars
are
all
parked
in
in
our
and
not
on
myself.
The
majority
of
the
cabs
in
the
city
of
toronto,
we're
still
forced
to
pay
that
extravagant
fee
of
thirteen
hundred
dollars.
Now
you
gotta
ask
yourself:
when
a
restaurant
or
a
barber
shop,
you
know
they
pay
a
two
three
hundred
dollar
renewal
fee
for
their
license.
L
What
are
what
is
the
tax
industry
getting
more
than
these
restaurants
or
these
barber
shops
that
we
have
to
pay
almost
a
thousand
dollars
more
for
our
renewal
fee?
It
just
doesn't
make
sense.
Actually,
if
restaurants
actually
need
more
inspections,
they
come,
they
have
health
inspections,
they
have
safety
inspections.
They
have
all
these
things.
Everything
else
for
the
taxes
is
all
on
us.
The
taxes
have
to
pay
for
their
own
safety
inspections.
The
taxes
have
to
pay
for
their
for
everything
on
their
own.
Now,
there's
no
more
training,
there's
no
more
renewal.
L
There's
no.
The
cities
basically
wipe
their
hands
clean
of
the
taxi
industry
and
actually,
council
holiday.
I
want
to
just
clarify
with
you
what
we're
fighting
for
here
when
you
ask
spec
taxi
is
what
did
you?
What
are
you?
How
much
are
they
do
they
pay
for
the
renewal
fee,
we're
not
fighting
for
the
brokerages
or
anybody
else,
we're
fighting
for
the
owner,
operators
that
are
driving
the
cabs
that
have
to
pay
that
1300
fee
for
every
single
taxi
that
they
have
or
majority
of
them
are
driving
themselves.
L
So
those
are
the
people
who
are
fighting
for
we're,
not
fighting
for
anything
else,
other
than
just
some
fairness
and
making
sure
that
you
know
we,
you
guys
have
to
take
care
of
of
an
industry
that
has,
you
know
regulated
for
so
many
decades
and
we're
just
hoping
that
that
people
will
justly.
You
know,
be
fair
to
us
as
they
haven't
been
for
the
last
four
or
five
years
and
again,
you
know
this
every
time
it
seems
that
the
report
comes
out
by
the
staff,
it's
always
negative
towards
the
tax
industry.
L
But
you
know
at
this
time
you
know
everyone
else
is
getting
a
break
except
the
tax
industry
and
don't
forget
they're
frontline
workers,
too
they're
they're
putting
their
themselves
at
risks
every
day
that
are
working
on,
and
I
commend
those
cab
drivers
that
are
still
working
and
they've
worked
since
copenhagen
and
I'm
proud
of
them,
and
I
hope
that
you
know
everybody
else-
would
see
the
support
that
we
want
to
see
from
them
from
the
city
council.
Thank
you.
A
L
L
N
L
Do
you
believe
if
I'm
wrong
yeah,
I
think
what
happened
was
sorry.
It's
just
cutting
out
a
little
bit,
but
as
far
as
I
know,
I
know
we
have
the
highest
renewal
fee
that
anybody
pays.
I
think
the
only
one
that
beats
us
really.
I
think
the
city
staff
has
told
me,
is
the
body
rob
licenses
that
are
issued,
that
there's
like
15
of
them
or
20
of
them
in
the
city
of
toronto,.
N
Great,
thank
you
and
just
to
my
final
question
is
in
2016
when
the
city
toronto
changed
the
rules
around
private
transportation
companies
and
the
vehicles
for
hire,
and
we
removed
the
twice
a
year
annual
inspections.
We
eliminated
the
training,
as
well
as
the
refresher
courses.
Was
there
a
commence,
a
related
decrease
that
came
with
the
reduction
of
those
services.
N
No
problem
I'll
just
try
to
summarize
it
as
quickly
as
I
can
so
when
2016,
when
we,
when
we
changed
the
rules
and
we
reduced
and
eliminated
some
of
those
additional
enhanced
services
so
such
as
the
twice
a
year
annual
inspections,
the
training,
the
refresher
courses
did
the
city
of
toronto.
Also,
just
to
remind
us
did
we
also
reduce
the
fees
accordingly,
because
you
were
getting
less
services.
L
Well,
based
on
the
fees
that
we
were
paying
and
based
on
the
services
that
we
were
getting,
I
don't
believe
that
they
reduced
it
enough.
They
say
they
have
reduced
it
by
a
couple
hundred
dollars,
but
basically
they
removed
everything
from
from
from
us,
we
basically
have
we're
responsible
on
our
own,
like,
for
example,
the
inspections
alone
were
paid
by
by
the
city,
those
were
removed.
We
had
to
get
our
own
inspections
and
that's.
L
That
is
what
they
did
so
for
me
to
say
that
they
reduce,
I
highly
believe
they
have
it
not
and
they've.
Only
added
costs
to
us
and
the
inspections
that
used
to
be
inspections
that
used
to
be
provided
for
us
are
now
have
to
be
taken
care
by
ourselves,
and
you
have
to
go
to
a
licensed
mechanic
to
provide
that
service
and
you
have
to
pay
them
a
significant
amount
of
money.
Each
time
you
take
it
there,
plus
the
repairs
and
everything
like
that
as
well.
A
A
D
D
The
main
thing
I've
taken
away
from
your
deputation
to
us
is
that
you
challenged
the
price
that
you
pay
or
the
value
of
the
services
that
you
pay
a
license
fee
for
so
I
think
it
says
about
1300
for
a
vehicle,
and
you
had
expressed
concerns
that
you
know
you're
not
getting
that
in
return
and
service
is
that.
Did
I
get
that
right.
D
L
We
should
be
paying
the
same,
at
least
at
the
minimum
as
that
they're
paying
and
when
it
comes
to
ptc
vehicles
that
the
two-tier
system
is
basically
completely
unjust
because
they
pay
nothing
the
actual
driver
themselves.
Uber
pays
per
ride
basis.
So
if
they're
not
working,
they
don't
have
to
pay
anything.
But
even
if
we're
not
working,
we
have
to
pay
so
that
that
balance
is
not
fair
there,
and
I
think,
when
you
know,
when
the
city
talks
about
cost
recovery,
they
created
a
brand
new
revenue
stream
when
they
allowed
ptc's.
L
They
were
getting
30
cents
a
ride
for
four
years
five
years
now,
and
I
just
don't
see
where
that
cost
recovery
is
balanced
there.
So
I
feel
like
we
should
be
treated
like
any
other
business.
We
should
be
paying
just
as
much
as
a
restaurant
pays
for
their
license
to
be
renewed
or
their
or
a
barber
shop
to
pay
for
their
license
to
be
ruined.
L
D
Right,
but
I
want
to
make
sure
I
got
this
point
right
so
our
price
aside,
because
the
number
is
always
arguable
right-
and
I
don't-
I
don't-
have
all
the
information
in
front
of
me
to
figure
out
what
it
costs
for
mls
to
deliver
their
services
to
your
industry.
But
would
you
agree
on
the
principle
that
it
should
be
cost
recovery,
or
do
you
think
that
the
taxpayers
should
be
subsidizing
it
in
some
way,
they're
two
different
concepts?
I
just
want
to
understand
where
you,
where
you
feel.
L
Well,
when
people
say
cost
recovery,
it's
very
hard
to
determine
what
actual
cost
recovery
is,
what
they're
determining
as
cost
recovery,
because
I
can
tell
you
a
counselor
I've
been
in
this
business
since
I
was
in
diapers
and
I
know
how
it
how
it
functions,
and
I
know
what
the
expenses
are,
and
I
can
tell
you
pre,
uber
and
lyft.
This
tax
industry
was
so
regulated,
so
heavily
regulated
that
I
could
understand
that
the
renewal
fee
was
a
thousand
dollars
because
there
were
so
many
things
that
they
did.
L
There
were
so
many
things
that
the
government
was
involved
in
our
business
and
we
have
to
follow
the
rules.
We
have
to
follow
the
regulations
and
we
paid
for
it
and
once
uber
and
lyft
came
a
brand
new
system
of
revenue,
as
I
said
again
came
in
and
our
services
declined
significantly
and
we
were
still
paying
the
same
amount
for
our
renewal
fee
and
they'll
say
they
haven't.
But
not
only
did
our
renewal
fee
go
up,
but
they
added
an
extra
fee
for
every
driver
that
drove
so.
L
You
not
only
have
to
pay
a
renewal
fee
for
your
for
your
vehicle,
but
you
also
have
to
pay
a
renewal
fee
for
your
driver's
license
for
your
cab
license
for
your
vehicle
for
our
license
and
it's
never
been
as
high
as
it's
been
today.
I'll
tell
you
that
right
now
it's
been
it's
significantly
gone
up
and
up
since
even
two
years
ago,
three
years
ago,
so
I
don't
you
know
I
I
just
don't
feel
it's
fair-
that
a
barber
shop
or
a
restaurant
pays
300
and
the
tax
industry
has
to
pay
1300.
D
Is
a
good
message
that
you
know
you're
entitled
to
challenge
it
as
a
consumer
of
the
of
the
service,
but
I
don't
think
you're
going
so
far
and
correct
me
if
I'm
wrong
but
you're
not
going
so
far
to
say
you
know,
council,
waive
all
our
fees
and
make
the
taxpayers
subsidize
it
like
that.
Doesn't
sound
like
the
message
you're
bringing
me
today.
L
The
taxi
industry-
I
don't
think,
wants
anybody
the
public
to
subsidize
anything
but
because
of
the
pandemic
because
of
the
pandemic.
Because
of
the
situation
we're
in
you
can't
ask
somebody
that
vehicle
is
parked
to
pay
a
fee,
you're
getting
you're
going
to
try
to
get
blood
from
a
stone.
What
happens
if
somebody
can't
pay
their
renewal
fee
you're
going
to
come
and
take
their
business
away
their
livelihood,
the
thing
that
they
cherish
the
most
for
decades
and
decades?
L
I
just
don't
think
it's
just
and
that's
the
threatening
letters
that
have
been
coming
out
by
the
city
city
staff.
I've
been
throwing
out,
threatening
letters
to
every
owner
that
couldn't
afford
to
pay
the
renewal
and
they've
been
sending
these
letters,
and
it's
just
it's
just
sad.
It's
just
sad
to
see
that
in
in
a
country
like
canada,
where
you
know
we're
supposed
to
be
treated
fairly
and
evenly,
everybody
else
seems
to
be
taken
care
of,
except
the
taxi
industry.
The
taxi
drivers
that
are,
you
know
that
are
hurt.
L
I
hurt
him
significantly
now,
of
course,
I
can
challenge
the
challenge,
their
cost
recovery
system.
They
can
say
whatever
they
want.
I
I
don't
know
I
can't
I'm
not
in
their
books,
I
don't
know,
but
I
could
just
tell
you,
how
is
it
fair
and
how
is
it
cost
recovery
when
I
only
have
two
interactions
with
them
a
year,
I
send
them
an
email
from
my
safety
certificate
and
I
send
them
my
renewal
fee
where
they're
collecting
money
from
me.
L
It
just
doesn't
make
sense
that
you
paid
thirteen
hundred
dollars
for
that,
and
I
never
see
anymore.
Inspectors
are
almost
obsolete.
You
don't
see
them
on
the
streets
anymore
and
if,
when
they
do
pull
over,
they
give
ridiculous
tickets.
That's
a
different
story
on
itself,
but
it's
just
it's
just
I
don't
know.
I
just
don't
think
it's
fair.
A
A
N
A
D
I
These
fees
are,
as
you
say,
cost
recovery,
and
we
looked
at
these
very
closely
with
a
third
party
economist
watson
and
associates
who
reviewed
all
our
licensing
fees
from
a
cost
recovery
basis.
So
this
includes
the
administration
and
the
enforcement
and
a
key
component
in
the
taxi
cab
industry
is.
They
are
frequently
at
the
toronto
licensing
tribunal,
so
there's
a
cost
associated
with
that
as
well.
So
I
can.
I
sympathize
with
the
deputies
and
the
the
struggles
that
they're
going
through
the
fees
that
we
have
are
cost
recovery.
I
We
did
reduce
them
22
in
in
2016
correct.
We
did
also
add
in
an
accessibility
fund,
so
they
did
then
go
back
up
and
they
have
gone
up
by
a
consumer
price
index
each
year,
so
that
is
generally
where
our
fees
are
and
how
they're
established-
and
they
have
been
reviewed
by
a
third
party,
independent
economist,
to
ensure
that
they
are.
They
are
accurate.
D
I
The
fees
are
set
through
the
the
user
fee
policy,
which
was
established
a
number
of
years
ago,
and
it's
through
again
cost
recovery.
They
if
we
are
to
bring
fee
changes
forward,
it
can
be
approved
by
by
a
committee,
but
it
ultimately
has
to
be
approved
by
council
and
they
are
all.
The
fees
in
the
city
are
included.
In
the
municipal
code,
chapter
441.
D
D
I
Yeah,
so
so,
without
doing
the
the
math,
we
felt
that
a
year
extension
was
reasonable.
It
is
not
just
for
the
cars
expiring
now
it
is
for
the
entire
industry
just
to
clarify
what
was
said
by
an
earlier
deputy
that
it
only
impacted
one
year.
It
impacts
all
all
of
the
cars,
and
the
other
thing
to
clarify
is
that
the
age
of
the
vehicles
most
the
average
age
of
a
taxi,
is
2015
model
year,
and
the
average
age
of
a
ptc
is
2017.
H
I
H
I
I
That's
correct
and
that's
why,
in
my
responses
to
deputy
mayor
holliday
was
talking
about
the
other,
the
other
industries
that
we
license.
The
fairness
is,
it
is
a
challenging
one
for
us.
I
do
not
have
the
authority
to
waive
fees.
What
I
can
say
is
that
there
are
a
number
of
businesses
that
have
been
forced
to
close
during
the
pandemic
and
through
the
various
phases
you
know,
hair
salons
restaurants
take
out
only
they
were
forced
to
close
different
industries
have
been
impacted,
different
ways.
H
I
A
A
I
E
Thank
you
councillor.
Your
to
the
deputy
moyni
had
suggested
that
the
services
have
decreased
but
that
the
fees
have
gone
up
and
in
2016
the
the
fees
actually
were
reduced.
So
there
was
originally
close
to
a
five
thousand
dollar
fee
for
application
and
that
was
removed,
and
then
the
fees
at
that
time
were
to
renew
were
almost
1300
and
that
has
since
dropped
by
22
to
just
a
little
over
a
thousand
dollars.
O
E
L
A
N
N
Four
years
later,
we've
actually
learned
quite
a
bit
and
what
we
have
largely
created,
I
think,
is
again
a
two-tier
system,
one
that
has
some
uneven
treatment
between
those
who
are
driving,
ubers
and
lyfts,
and
those
who
are
driving
licensed
taxi
vehicles,
and
so,
as
we
impose
the
licensing
requirements
on
taxi
drivers
and
operators.
At
the
end
of
the
day,
what
we
want
to
ensure
is
is
public
safety
that
we
have
vehicles
on
the
road
that
are
safe,
that
we
are
doing
everything
we
can
to
ensure.
N
I
think,
a
sector
that
needs
to
survive
post
pandemic,
because
at
one
point
in
time
the
office
towers
will
be
back.
The
large
events
and
conventions
will
be
back
in
the
core
and
we
will
need
to
ensure
that
we're
going
to
have
to
have
a
viable
fleet
of
taxis
to
to
to
make
the
cultural
economy
go,
and-
and
just
as
we
know
that
you
can't
hold
a
convention
in
an
airbnb.
N
So
we
can
then
course
pave
a
path
forward
at
city
council
that
will
allow
us
to
be
able
to
skillfully,
but
also
respectfully
respond
to
the
the
requests
of
the
sector,
but
also
be
able
to
work
with
staff.
So
we
actually
have
a
program,
even
if
it's
temporary
relief
with
a
moratorium
or
perhaps
a
minor
reduction
of
fees
as
we
go
forward,
so
we
actually
have
a
viable
sector
afterwards.
N
Many
business
operators,
including
taxi
operators,
not
being
able
to
care
for
their
families,
and-
and
I
think
it's
important
for
us
to
all
recognize
that
you
know
there
are
some
fixed
costs
within
sectors
and
the
fixed
costs
within
the
taxi
industry
seems
to
be
disproportionately
high
by
way
of
not
even
being
able
to
get
insurance
at
the
beginning
of
the
pandemic
being
held
down
to
two
insurance
companies,
which,
I
think
is
is
is
really
difficult.
I
mean
when
I
go
see
car
insurance.
I
have.
N
I
have
literally
dozens
and
dozens
of
insurance
options
before
me
and
I
get
to
make
a
choice,
but
that
doesn't
seem
to
be
the
case
with
the
sector
in
it.
I
do
think
that
it's
grossly
unfair
with
respect
to
the
point
that
was
raised
around
whether
or
not
we
have
full
on
cost
recovery,
if
we're
collecting
32
million
dollars
from
licenses
across
a
whole
range
of
sectors
in
the
city
and-
and
one
third
of
that
is
coming
from
from
the
taxi
industry.
N
N
C
I'll
speak
to
it
in
the
absence
of
anyone
else.
So
the
more
I
listen
to
discussion
on
this,
the
more
I
have
difficulty
supporting
any
option
frankly,
because
everything
seems
to
be
unfair
or
have
some
unintended
consequence,
but
I
have
no
terrific
wisdom
for
it
today
and
if
counselor,
if
kristen
is
you
know,
willing
to
spend
a
lot
of
time
between
now
and
council
to
try
to
sort
this
out.
D
I
have
no
doubt
that
there'll
be
more
discussion
at
council
on
this
and
perhaps
some
other
policies
introduced,
but
I
I
can't
find
a
downside
on
a
modification
on
the
vehicle
age
other
than
you
know
the
simple,
the
simple
obvious
one
that
it
was
implemented
with
a
specific
environmental
goal,
but
the
staff
report
is
really
compelling
here,
there's
in
consultation
with
84
percent
of
the
respondents
to
their
survey
in
the
industry.
They
agreed
or
strongly
agreed
that
the
maximum
age
of
the
vehicle
should
be
extended
by
one
year.
D
It
costs
us
nothing
to
do
it.
I
think,
has
material
effect
to
that
segment
of
the
group
that
owns
the
vehicles.
That
means
you
can
amortize
one
extra
year
on
the
life
of
the
vehicles,
a
lot
of
them
across
the
city.
I
realize
not.
Every
member
of
council
will
support
that
based
purely
on
environmental
merit,
but
the
point
is
made
that
it's
covered.
These
cars
are
not
being
worn
and
torn
as
much
as
they
normally
would
be.
D
With
the
numbers
of
kilometers
driven-
and
this
produces
a
very,
very
meaningful
effect
for
a
group
of
people
without
any
extra
cost,
so
I
think
we
should
at
least
do
that.
I
mean
I
would
be
surprised
if
that
particular
recommendation
was
struck
down
on
the
council
floor.
If
anything
it
might
be
made
bigger
based
on
what
is
some
of
the
deputations
I've
brought
before
us.
So
I
can't
find
an
upside
to
sending
this
without
any
recommendations
at
all.
D
D
I
think
we
should
take
a
step
and
at
least
give
people
some
signal
that
that
there
is
a
change
on
the
way
and
maybe
there's
a
bigger
discussion
about
fees
and
all
that.
But
I
would
make
the
point
that,
if
it's
just
it
can't
be
just
this
industry,
there's
probably
a
much
larger
discussion
to
be
had
about
user
fees
and
those
effects
and
we're
talking
multi
millions
of
dollars.
So
that
is
material
and
that's
not
something
I'm
comfortable
having
at
this
committee,
I
think
that
belongs
over
at
budget
and
finally
at
city
council.
Thank
you.
H
H
You
know,
in
my
opinion,
does
not
make
any
sense
at
all
move
the
staff
recommendation
and
if
council
wong
tam
feels
that
you
can
come
up
with
a
compromise,
but
whatever
compromise
it
is
we'll
have
to
go
to
budget
at
the
end
of
the
day.
So
I
will
support
moving
it
along
with
the
staff
recommendation.
A
A
B
A
A
C
C
Q
C
Okay,
well,
if
you
could
get
back
to
me
on
that
before
council,
some
of
you
cut
out
for
some
of
that
answer.
But
I
understand
you:
don't
have
the
answer
right
now
and
we'll
get
it.
My
second
question
is
the
in
looking
at
you
know:
there's
a
significant
jump
in
2019,
it's
difficult
to
compare
anything
to
2020,
so
there's
not
a
whole
lot
of
point
in
asking
for
that
comparison,
but
you
know:
what's
the
trend
here?
C
Are
we
spending
more
on
consultants,
and
if
so,
does
that
mean
that
we
aren't
planning
far
enough
ahead
or
that
we?
You
know
that
we're
failing
to
recruit
the
kind
of
expertise
we
need
or
that
council
has
squeezed
staff
so
much
that
they're
relying
on
consultants?
What
would
be
the
explanation
for
it.
Q
Q
Q
For
example,
the
the
value-based
outcome
review
that
took
place
last
year
that
was
paid
for
by
the
by
the
province,
or
there
are
specific
things
that
we
don't
want
to
have
on
board
like
specialized
legal
advice
where
occasionally
we
require
that
advice
and
then
will
not
need
it
for
for
quite
some
time
so
counselor
those
are,
generally
speaking,
the
circumstances
I
believe
in
in
2019.
There
were
just
a
number
of
those
types
of
things
that
took
place
and
there
was
no
other
specific
circumstance
that
we
can
identify.
Q
B
C
A
C
A
Q
C
Q
So
in
in
this
context,
through
the
chair
to
you
counselor,
the
approach
was
the.
This
is
a
complete,
different
change
in
the
way
that
that
procurement
was
being
adopted
and
a
different
strategy
that
is,
is
going
forward
that
we're
trying
to
implement
across
the
organization.
So
it's
a
change
in
behavior
that
we're
trying
to
we're
trying
to
move
towards
in
that.
Q
We
need
to
make
sure
that
the
organization
is
focused
on
achieving
the
benefits
and
able
to
continue
to
to
realize
those
benefits
over
the
life
of
the
contract.
The
vast
majority
of
other
other
contracts
are
not
driving
that
kind
of
change,
they're
they're,
providing
advice
or
providing
a
a
specific
output,
a
specific
report.
Q
C
C
Q
C
Q
C
I've
been
trying
to
do
some
math
on
this
issue,
and
so
tell
me
if
I've
got
something
wrong
here.
What
I
did
was
I
took
the
10.161
million
divided
that
by
fifteen
thousand
five
hundred
hours
I
came
out
to
655
dollars
per
hour
and
then
annualized
that
at
35
hours
a
week
times
52
weeks
and
came
out
to
one
million
one
hundred
and
ninety
three
thousand
one
hundred
and
one
dollars
approximately
so
let's
say
1.1
1.2
million
as
being
an
equivalent
amount.
I
know
it's
I'm
comparing
apples
and
oranges.
C
C
Q
So
that's
effectively
equivalent
from
a
an
equivalent
portion
of
the
of
the
contract
to
the
15
000
500
hours
that
you're
providing
the
other
part
that,
I
think
is
important
for
you
to,
for
you
to
appreciate
is
that
the
the
15
500
hours
is
for
their
is
not
individual,
specific
people.
It
is
sorry.
Let
me
rephrase
that
it's
not
full-time
equivalence.
It's
bring
in
the
skill
sets
as
required,
depending
upon
the
operation
of
the
the
opportunities
that
are
being
brought
into
place.
A
Q
Yeah,
so
certainly
I
can
do
that.
Mr
chair
there's
a
couple
of
things.
Certainly
there's
there's
the
aspects
that
I
mentioned
before
about
the
deliverables,
so
instant
young
is
providing
us
with
all
of
the
tools
and
the
training
materials
and
the
processes
that
we
will
need
to
be
able
to
operate
this
going
forward.
Q
In
addition,
they
as
part
of
their
15
000
hours,
they
would
be
providing
us
with
research
capability
data,
analytical
support,
project
management,
support
market
intelligence
as
well
as
strategic
support
during
negotiations,
so
for
so
for
the
the
staff
that
we
have
on
board,
who
are
category
management?
There's
a
an
aspect
to
this.
That
is,
the
on-the-job
training,
the
experience,
training
that
is
taking
place
and
has
been
taking
place
from
from
the
start.
So
we've
we've
started
with
totally
relying
upon
ernst
and
young's
capabilities
and
skill
sets
to
actually
do
this.
Q
A
Okay
and
and
that
addresses
my
next
question,
mr
flynn,
where
there's
comments
in
the
report
that
it
that
at
this
point,
one
of
the
reasons
we
hired
ernst
young
to
do
this
training
or
part
of
the
package
for
doing
the
training
is
that
out
in
the
marketplace.
There
doesn't
seem
to
be
people
available
with
these
skills,
and
is
that
because
it's
you
think
it's,
I
guess,
a
finesse
skill
or
a
fine-tuned
skill.
Q
So
so
all
I'll
start
and
and
mike
and
sandra
can
can
also
provide
additional
information.
It's
certainly
one
of
the
key
learnings
that
we
had
through
the
first
phase
of
the
contract
was
that
it
is
in
fact
extraordinarily
difficult
to
find
skilled
people
in
this
particular
area.
There
are
lots
of
procurement
folks,
you
know
from
a
lots
of
people
apply,
but
very
few
people
are
able
to
demonstrate
that
the
they
have
the
judgment
and
the
and
the
experience
and
the
history
to
think
from
a
very
strategic
perspective.
Q
That's
required
for
this
type
of
approach.
So
that's
why
we
pivoted
to,
instead
of
continuing
to
try
to
recruit
totally
we're
asking
for
the
tools
and
the
training
to
be
in
place,
to
be
able
to
train
our
own
people
and
and
enhance
their
skill.
Sets
that
we
that
we
go
forward.
I
guess
counselor
it's
another
thing
to
say
is
that
this
is
a
whole
of
the
procurement
of
function.
So
it's
not
just
the
the
actual
contracts
themselves.
Q
Category
management
talks
about
contract
management
and
vendor
management
as
well,
which
I'm
I'm
sure
you
you
can
appreciate,
is
something
that
the
auditor
is
very
interested
in.
So
it's
it's
not
just
the
buying
skill
set
that
we're
trying
to
find
and
put
in
place.
It's
the
contract
management
and
the
vendor
management.
Skill
sets
that
are
also
applicable
to
this.
A
D
Thank
you
chair.
I
was
inspired
by
some
of
the
answers
and
counselor
phillian
has
asked
some
really
good
questions
that
are
worth
asking.
What,
if
or
what
would
it
take
if
or
how
long
would
it
take?
I
should
say
if
council
was
to
say
forget
this
staff
go
out
and
hire
the
people
that
we
need
to
do.
This
go
put
put
the
consultants
aside
and
in
house
this,
and
what
is
the
difference
in
time?
It
would
take
for
the
consultant
to
do
it
and
for
us
to
do
it.
Q
Q
There's
the
other
aspect
of
it,
which
is
that
ernst
young,
is
providing
us
those
committed
minimum
15
500
hours
to
help
us
continue
to
move
forward
with
the
opportunities
that
are
that
are
currently
in
the
pipeline.
They,
in
other
words,
they
enable
us
to
continue
to
fly
the
plane
as
we're
trying
to
fix
or
create
the
the
new
process.
Q
D
E
Through
the
chair,
excellent
question,
counselor
holiday,
if
we
move
to
a
staff
only
model,
we
are
putting
at
risk
the
110
million
dollars
in
benefits
that
we've
identified
in
the
pipeline
as
we'll
have
a
smaller
team
to
focus
in
on
that.
So
you
know
in
the
initial
report
we
estimated
we
might
be
able
to
achieve
40
million
dollars
in
benefits
in
the
same
time
frame.
So
that
is
one
one
one
key
issue:
those
benefits
are
at
risk,
but
then
also
with
respect
to
the
deliverables
around
supplier,
relationship
management
and
contract
management.
E
Those
are
key
deliverables
to
assist
the
divisions
on
on
main
on
how
to
manage
their
contracts
properly
and
get
the
savings
actually
out
of
the
contract
after
they've
been
executed,
which
is
a
common
theme
from
the
auditor
general.
So
those
are
the
two
major
things
that
would
be
would
be
delayed
if
we
went
to
a
staff
model.
D
So
would
it
would
it
be
safe
to
say
that
that
opportunity
cost
in
outsourcing
the
consulting
because
of
the
speed
at
which
the
production
can
occur
of
the
savings
would
outstrip
any
savings
if
we
were
to
insource
this
particular
model
just
by
basic.
You
know
business
sense
that
it's
going
to
take
some
time
to
get
to
the
same
point
that
there's
a
value
in
that
time
and
we
don't
have
to
put
a
number
on
it,
but
but
it
more
than
pays
for
itself.
So
it's
a
logical
step.
Q
Through
the
chair
counselor,
I
would
agree.
Certainly
the
the
the
outsourcing
opportunity
puts
us
in
a
place
where
we're
self-sustaining
much
earlier.
It's
a
one-time
fee
and
were
able
to
move
forward.
The
staff
only
model
would
take
quite
a
bit
longer
to
do
and
we
would
be
committing
to
ongoing
costs.
Q
Q
D
C
Q
Through
the
chair
counselor,
I
think
that
become
became
relatively
apparent
about
a
year
into
the
original
contract
when
it
became
much
more
difficult
to
recruit
than
was
originally
anticipated.
So,
michael
with
the
early
part
of
2019,
I
would
suggest
we've
been
attempting
to
move
forward
as
expeditiously
as
we
can
and
again
at
the
same
point
in
time,
attempting
to
generate
the
the
savings
for
the
organization
of
41
million
dollars.
C
So
if
a
year
and
a
half
ago
we
had
decided
to
do
the
internal
recruitment,
then
we
would
have
the
staff
recruited
by
now.
We
said
I'm
not
trying
to
put
words
in
your
mouth.
I
just
think
I,
if
I
understand
this
correctly,
the
reason
that
we're
now
in
a
position
where
we
don't
make
the
savings
for
12
to
18
months
is
because
we
didn't
look
at
how
we
might
do
this
better
12
to
18
months
ago.
Q
E
Yes,
through
the
chair,
you
know
andrew's
correct.
We
we
have
been
consistently
and
constantly
in
recruitment
mode
over
the
course
of
the
last
two
years.
I
think
you
know
in
2019
we
realized
that
we,
it
was
not,
as
things
were,
not
going
as
well
as
we
had
hoped
for
in
terms
of
recruitment.
It
took
us
much
longer
to
get
to
the
where
the
team
is
now
and
we
actually
were
recruiting
into
2020.
E
I
think
the
additional
complicating
factor
happens
to
be
in
2020,
with
the
with
covet,
hitting
the
priorities
changed
for
the
for
the
organization,
and
then
the
hiring
slowdown
has
also
occurred,
so
our
ability
to
some
of
the
positions
we
had
at
the
2020
budget,
for
example,
we've
we've
had
to
pause
or
slow
down.
Because
of
that,
so
you
know
I
don't
I
wouldn't
say
in
2019
we
just
assumed
we
would
need
to
extend
ey.
We
were.
E
We
were
working
very
hard
to
get
all
the
positions
in
in
place
or
getting
the
majority
of
positions
in
place.
It
was
just
a
happenstance
of
recruitment
that
realized
that
we
would
need
more
help
and
then
as
well.
The
fact
that
we
needed
to
expedite
finding
benefits,
cost
avoidance
and
cost
savings
to
assist
the
city,
but
also
another
factor
for
us
wanting
to
move
forward
again
with
ey.
A
C
Yes,
so
I
do
understand
that
we
now
have
ourselves
in
a
spot
that
if
we
don't
do
this
and
we
do
it
the
way
that
I
wish
we
had
done
it
that
we
forego
a
year
or
so
of
savings
that
would
and
that
that
would
probably
you
know
if
you
look
at
a
balance
sheet
several
years
from
now
that
could
cost
us
money.
I
just
have
so
much
difficulty
with
this
that
I
can't
support
it.
C
A
Seeing
none,
I
am,
will
be
the
last
speaker,
I'm
I'm
going
to
move
the
recommendations
in
this
report.
I
think
it's
the
proper
way
to
be
moving
forward
as
the
this
is
the
second
time
that
we've
dealt
with
this
item.
I
think
that
the
the
path
forward
is
the
proper
one
that
at
this
time,
we
don't
have
the
people
that
we
can
hire
in
the
marketplace.
A
I
think
that
this
type
of
contract
is
something
that
we
should
also
be
moving
forward
with
in
terms
of
the
work
being
done
and
a
benefit
clause
in
it.
I
think
there's
a
number
of
other
areas
that
we
could
be
utilizing
the
same
type
of
contract
in.
I
think
it's
successful.
It's
been
successful
so
far.
I
hope
it'll
be
successful
in
the
next
stage.
I
I
also
look
forward
to
seeing
this
properly
being
utilized,
so
we
have
more
staff
in
place
that
are
trained
to
do
this
type
of
work.
A
I
know,
as
staff
said,
that
there's
will
be
plans
when
we
have
our
staff
properly
trained,
that
this
be
will
be
across
the
corporation
and
that
there
will
also
be
in
a
process
in
place
that
our
staff
will
be
trained
on
an
ongoing
basis.
So
we
won't
have
to
utilize
consultants
in
the
future
to
do
this
work
or
to
train
our
staff.
So
I
will
be
moving
the
recommendations
in
the
report
and
go
from
there.
Thank
you.