VMware Carvel Community Meetings, 7 Apr 2022

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From YouTube: Carvel Community Meeting - April 7, 2022

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Carvel Community Meeting - April 7, 2022
We meet every Thursday at 10:30am PT. We'd love for you to join us live!

This week we went over issues being worked on for kapp-controller, ytt, kctrl, and kapp. Rohit also demo'd package author flow to get some feedback from the community. Full details here: https://hackmd.io/F7g3RT2hR3OcIh-Iznk2hw#April-7-2022-Agenda

A

Hi everyone welcome to this week's edition of the carville community meeting. Today's date is april, 7th 2022.. If you are watching this from home on, you would like to join us. Live we meet every thursday at 10 30 a.m. Pacific time it's an opportunity for you to come and meet the maintainers.

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Listening on what we're working on for the week, anything that we have upcoming, you can propose a discussion topic, and that includes anything you would like to see it put into development like a feature request or if you have any questions regarding karmal and how to use any of the tools we're here to help in a live way, and we would love for you to join us live for.

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Anyone who is on this call today and does have a discussion topic, please be sure to add that down below in the agenda within the discussion topic section and we'll get to it towards the end of the meeting.

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If you're unable to join us live at any of these meetings- and you still want to reach out to us, we can be found in the kubernetes slack workspace within the carville channel or on twitter at carnival underscore dev.

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If at any point, you're interacting with us or any other members of the community. We ask that you please read and abide by our code of conduct and it's linked here in the agenda, and you can just find it within our repo.

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For those that are using the carnival tools, we would like to know more about how you are using them. We've created this pinned issue within the cargo repo, and it just asks you to provide a few details on yourself and your use case with any of the cargo tools and optionally. We would like for you to add your logo of your organization.

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In turn, we will add it to the adapters file here. It's just a way for us to promote your organization and show others what companies are using karvel, and we would also just like to know how you're using it, because it helps us, improve the tools and and know how we can best build other features within it.

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We ask anyone who is attending this meeting to put their name in the organization you're representing in the attendees list here.

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Moving on to announcements, so we have just some light announcements. uh This week we have as far as content goes. We created this blog post that showcases the video that was done on tuesday of this week with lee capilli.

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He did a video over vendor and ytt on tonzo tuesday. This kind of goes over what to expect within the video and video outline and the embedded video here so be sure to give that a watch.

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Upcoming which we had planned on for this week, but we just have a little bit more to iron out for the this particular blog post. It's parameter, parameterizing your project configuration with ytt by garrett, cheadle he's one of the maintainers here so be on the lookout for that coming up, and if you have something that you wish to share with anybody in the carnival community, we don't limit creating content and promoting content to just the maintainers.

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We would like to have everybody participate, so we've created this uh way for you to sign up for any date that works best for you. Just because it's not listed here doesn't mean it's unavailable, so be sure to add extra lines.

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If there's a future date that you have in mind that you want to put in there as far as some content that you wish to share, whether that's a webinar you're doing or a blog post that you've written or anything like that, we would like to to have it listed out here and we would promote it through twitter and all sorts of other channels that we have.

A

And for those that do participate and they're maintainers, we do send them a t-shirt. So um just as a thank you for for helping out with us helping that helping us out with uh sharing the content.

A

Moving on to status updates, do we have anything updated for the project roadmap.

B

um No changes- it's probably since it's another month, uh a good time to update our roadmap. Since I see we just have some past items on there, but um yeah most most things are continuing to hold true to the plan. I know renew anything you want to share on your side.

C

We are coming up with uh the cap controller cli changes uh which are looking pretty good now and of course, we have been working on something called as the wizard for package authors, which we are hoping.

C

The first cut should be available somewhere in may again tentative uh keeping fingers crossed. I would like to discuss that also today and see how it goes.

A

Thank you, okay and looking at stats updates regarding some of the work the maintainers are doing for the tools so for cap controller who's able to provide details on this.

D

I can talk about this first one. um We are working on um an issue and there's open pull request today. If you change the config for cap controller, you can only do that when the pod is starting.

D

So if you change the http proxy or the ca certs that you would like cap controller to use to get those to be enforced, you have to restart the pod as of today.

D

This pull request is so that cap controller can do effectively like a hot reload without needing to be restarted.

D

And I think this helm tool- and I was just like to give an update- that we have removed the support for helm v2 from cap controller. So in our next release um it will use helm v3 only.

E

Maybe to add, like one stroke of color, um the user experience that we were hearing repeatedly is nobody wanted helm v2 to run, but occasionally it would run uh kind of due to like a poorly configured home chart, and so it was. It got to the point where people were actively asking us not to have helm v2 support.

E

um So you know it's a real success. We really listened to our community. We kept our ear to the ground, we moved quickly. We broke things and we'll release it soon.

A

Thanks joe and thanks neil, I really appreciate that. uh Next up, we have ytt.

A

Anyone able to talk more about what's listed out here.

F

Yeah I can give.

G

F

Oh go ahead. Carrie! Please.

H

Yeah, so these are uh the priorities for this week. So there's uh validations is the big feature that we've been working on um and in the link there's a the epic that shows the stories that are upcoming and in progress.

H

I don't know if there's anything you want to call up here, john or others.

F

Yeah, like that, the main thing that I was thinking of was just that uh we've we've made way there was um more that we want out of the underlying code base uh required some maturing there's, and so uh we've tackled a whole bunch of that in that first story. So it was kind of long running, but understandably so, uh for that stuff we're starting to see an acceleration um in in, as we build out the rest of this stuff. So looking forward to to getting that out in people's hands.

H

And then we also have some content. That's in progress right now. um The one that I've been working on is the getting started guide. I linked the pr there. If you have opinions on how this ytt getting started guide should look feel free to give me a review uh and then yeah, there's um upcoming blog posts, which I think we touched on earlier.

A

And hctrl stuff.

C

So, for kctrl um app status is in progress. What we are also trying to do is extend the same status that we are trying to do so um and where packages do not have.

C

App status will fall back to showing the reconcile the reconciling status messages as in since no change from what it is.

C

um We are um also working on uh putting kctrl into tons of cli. We have raised a pr for that, so that whatever work we are doing for kctrl is available would be available in sanso. Cli is pumping kctrl and they could directly use the command tree there for kctrl. So that's the integration work is in progress.

C

We have what we have been working on for the package author flow is, we are calling, so there is kctrl is what is the the consumer flow right for cap controller, and now we are also working on what would be the author flow and which we are calling, as of now is the builder commands um so kctrl builder again open to discussion uh how we would want to call them, uh but that is what we are pure seeing right now, there's a proof of concept going on, for that.

C

So would like to discuss that um for cap, what we're working on is, a request has come in to have users have asked us to have custom matches for conditions um where many resources, I think, uh would may not have conditions field, and this is how kubernetes is coming with some of the resources, so uh the weight rules need to be more. um What do you say um flexible and we are using ytt for that good stuff there uh yep? That's that's what we're working on currently.

A

All right, thank you. So much does anybody else have any thing they wish to add to this or any questions for the team.

G

uh uh I I would like to discuss openly and get some views on the builder create package author flow. Basically.

G

So so the thing is like, as reno have mentioned, that the builder it's it's uh so with packages, there are two kind of flows: one is package authoring flow and another is the consumption flow.

G

So builder is something you know with the help of which the users will differentiate, whether they are here only for the consumption or they want to actually author a package.

G

uh So what we we are thinking is to target uh to start with this, some of the most most commonly used cases uh right, for example, we we have n number of uh mappings, so you can do a fetch from uh there are a number of options: wait image, package, bundle or helm, chart or other things, and then image package bundle.

G

Also it can be created in like n ways, uh for example, from an uh image or from github release or stuff like that right, so that that is what it is and uh just just to uh show something like how how does it look and feel I'll just share? My screen is if that is okay,.

A

Yeah absolutely.

G

So I'll not run through the whole flow, but just for initial some look and feel uh so because it will be part of the kctrl. Only so.

C

Jumps into it a brief background of why we are doing this right. um What we have heard from users is that package authoring is difficult. um They would want to have, especially for uh uh first timers, that there should be a way where uh we would want to guide them through each and every step.

C

um So there has been a lot of good work being done. I think joe is working on a primer. We have actually looked at it quite uh many times to understand how we should be developing this flow. uh We did a survey also try to get feedback from users as to what should be addressed as part of this wizard. If we want to call it a wizard or a guided flow, what is it that they would want to see?

C

What we want to achieve is basically a interactive flow where we tell users. uh This is the uh this.

C

uh The first step that you need to do is this, and uh if you want to learn it, then this is the command that you will have to uh enter and why we are doing it, and this is the output and then, let's move on to the next step and slowly guide them through each and every step and do it for them and also at the same time, teach them, and that is what we would want to achieve for first time, users.

C

However, it doesn't end there right, because users are going. We would also want it for users to come back to it and maybe use it. The second time and third time to update their packages, if required or just be a quick way to scaffold the structure and you know, have empty files created and then they could go and add few things to it. So there are a lot of things that are that are that is being asked by this particular tool.

C

um What we have tried to right now concentrate on is the first basic flow, which is the creating of a package for a first time user. um So what do you go with.

G

Yup now thank you uh yeah. So, as trainer mentioned, we uh it's just a poc and uh we we have tried to create one very basic flow. So, for example, uh it will be user want to create a package uh on package a so let's say he write this.

G

So all it will be using is something similar to all our cli tools, but the only thing which will be different is it will be quite interactive, so, okay, so uh so the thing is like all the commands which are coming or like all the information or the knowledge which is coming from the tool uh that will be started with the pound sign, so that users can differentiate it clearly and the places where we will be asking the inputs.

G

It will be without the pound sign now. uh One thing is they are like. We do see these kind of uh brackets, uh but uh uh so we we know how to get rid of them. uh It's just that. I have not done it yet uh so internally. This is again using the go cli ui library, which uh other tools are using, so we we might have. We have to enhance that a bit to remove these brackets but yeah, for example, when he wants to create this uh package a so yeah.

G

We tell them like okay, yeah. First, you have to create this uh directory itself right. So that is why you will be running this command: mkdi, dir, hyphen, b and uh okay. Then, on the package version you want to be used. Let's say: selects version 1.0 great. Now we know that uh a package has to have a fully qualified name, so we tell them like yeah. The package has the fully qualified name again. It is separated into three segments by a dot and it cannot have a trailing dot. So let's say he enter the package.

G

uh The name package a.kaval.dev.

G

And oh great now now we know that okay, now for a package you have to tell from where you want to get your distribution right and we have different type of sources. It can be image package and chart in line. So one input we have is we. We have to add the links here uh to the image package, documentation so that if they want to really see what each of them is, we can point them to the documentation, so you'll be adding the links here.

G

Http links yup, and so let's say you want to go with the image package. Then we ask them as the image package bundle already created, let's say say: no, no, okay! Then we know that okay, it means the user actually want to create the image package bundle. uh Then we we tell them like now. You have to create the configure.image package directory and tell him like in karl.

G

The upstream source is the location to sync the software configuration and we have different upstream sources of them again. These list we see they are not exhaustive, like we, we have many more options and just for the demonstration purposes, I have kept three three of them, so if let's say select the upstream type as github and then we ask him and select for repository. So the assumption is that you know if if they are selecting one option, they will have some knowledge about it.

G

That is the assumption here. So let's say jet stack, slash, search manager, cert manager is the uh search manager is what the user wants to package. So do you want to use the latest release version? Let's say say no okay, then we tell like you have to mention the release tag. So let's say you say version 1.5.3.

G

uh Do you want to include everything from the stream? Let's say you say no, that this means. Basically, you know whatever is there in the github release? Do you want to include everything from the output, so you say no, then we then he has to enter or what you want to add and uh one thing more thing is like: if there are more than one parts you want to add, you can add it for the comma separated values.

G

uh Okay, so now, uh for example, uh so he has entered this now we say oh yeah. Now we we have all the information needed uh to sync up from the upstream, so let's create the vendor.yaml. So we have created the vendor.yaml for him, and this is the vendor. You got yama and now we are telling him like. We are running the vendor sync, so it is currently running I I know it is taking some time, uh maybe because I am on vpn.

G

uh That is why, but uh once vendor dot sync, when the sync is run, uh we tell them like yeah, so your vendor sync is run, and this is the output of vendor sync. So to ensure that data has been synced. Let's do the ls on this directory and we see that this manager.yaml has been fetched from the github and it has created this vendor.log.yaml file, and this is what it is uh yeah.

G

So this is how more or less uh uh we we plan on um taking them through the guided flow at the same time, teaching them also like mostly this is what they will be doing if they will be doing it manually.

G

uh So uh what we are looking for is the inputs on how we can improve it. uh Yep.

E

Okay, I feel, like me and john, are were like mute, mute, icon, jockeying, um I'll, ask a question.

E

um I I guess I'm thinking about credit cards, I don't know if you've ever input a credit card, there's some forms that make you tell them whether you have a visa or an american express and there's other forms that know that visas start with the number four and amex starts with the number three, um and I wonder if there's a similar opportunity here, uh like you ask them what type of upstream is available, and I wonder if, if we we could get away asking fewer questions by kind of just asking them?

E

What's the url of the fetch location and then inferring, the type of fetch would that work or would that would would that be doomed.

G

Okay, oh yeah. I think we can look into it. Certainly the so. There are multiple options I think github release it will work with the url. uh So does the helm chart should work image, I'm not sure like. If it is docker, we just treat it as an image or so the the point will come like some of the urls might not be, for example, the private repository if they want to share right, uh not sure if uh so, there's there's some default.

G

uh I don't know if the default case going forward in that case will be the image url, but yeah we can try your loop. I.

E

G

E

Yeah, I, like I guess at this level, my feedback is even even if you do a guess and confirm, like we think, that's an image. Is that correct? Yes or no? uh You know that I guess in terms of lowering the number of things that the user has to think about. Like the package author, they definitely have some url that they that they they know that they own and anyways it might be anyway. This is a small point. I'm sure john ryan had something very insightful to offer.

F

Great, uh this better be insightful. Okay. First of all, I love this because, like you're saying it's providing guidance like this is being a facilitator to try and help teach so that you can learn how to like it eases that learning curve. I love. I love this like there's a little bit of commentary and the response, um uh and it it it makes me wonder if, like maybe there's like a companion part in some doc somewhere, where it's like, we give a hint of what's happening here in psych.

F

You know if, if you need to better understand this click on this link and like if we put url many common terminals, uh you just command click and you'll just go to a browser if you want um so that might be a way and then it also gives us the ability to kind of enhance that experience, because this can be baked in right, um like whatever version of the cli, I'm using that's what I get, but we could sort of like make little tweaks um in in sort of that narrative uh if, if necessary, um yeah- and I love how you're showing what you're doing as you're doing it.

F

You know this, it also strikes me as like. This is one of the first times I've seen within this project, where we're deliberately specifically, this is an interactive experience, as opposed to many of many of our tools. They're meant to straddle being in an integration experience, sometimes even like thinking about that, like primarily that it's like. Oh, this is running in a ci. It's going to be, you know, needs to be easily composed with other tools, but this particular mode is specifically like the machine working with a human being.

F

um It makes me wonder if, like it's worthwhile at some point to invest in um a a finer ui like um I just became recently aware of this project called charm.sh, and they have a set of tools for go that like help, you build um some rich interactions in the terminal, specifically for a terminal uis um or text uis, so that might help also in managing like when you're trying to like make this readable and there's a long list of things like they.

F

They have widgets already, where, like you, can put in a list you can select from and it scrolls um having pains. So you can just kind of like show progress along a process. It might give us options that are just way too much to try and implement ourselves while we're trying to provide this guidance type experience, so maybe something to check out, but this is really exciting.

G

Sure, oh sure we will. We will check out that with.

C

Regards to having those pointers and links, I think rohit mentioned that we plan to put in those links right now. They are not here one because those documents require documentation. Itself is not available with us and we need to really think through what needs to be given as an example that people would want to look at um that. We'll, certainly we want to put in, and this charm produce really looks nice. We should check it out.

G

We'll check it out.

I

I'll say that from the side of a package author, this seems amazing. uh This looks awesome and I have to say that personally, I actually disagree with what joe had mentioned.

I

um I would I do like the fact that it gives the list of things and doesn't auto infer, because, as this kind of being that tutorial and guiding the person through, they won't know what types of inputs necessarily can be used within a package so giving the list there of options um can allow someone to kind of use this as a easy way through to really understand. Okay right now, I want to do a helm chart. Oh, I could also do a github release. That's awesome. They may not know that something is possible.

I

That is so. I think that, because it is anyways a walk through kind of and it is interactive. I like the fact that there is that type of question that can just kind of put in the eyes of the person hey there. Are these other options as well, um so they could come back and do that path as well, um but yeah. This looks awesome. I'm nice, I'm really excited to play with it.

G

G

C

G

All right I'll I'll just find.

C

Thank you so much. I've noted down for inputs. Let's see how we put them in they're excited to do this.

A

Yeah, thank you so much for showing up.

G

Also one more thing so renault have mentioned about the scaffold part also, so we we really think that will be really helpful. For example, you don't know what the url is right. For example, you don't have the concrete data, but let's say you just know that: okay in the future, for example, for a development team, they know right.

G

I'm I'm going to go ahead with the image package. Bundle in the future, so just run the scaffold. You will get your data structures and maybe some files with the placeholders so that they can come and fill in whenever in the future they have the data.

A

Any other questions or comments.

E

Thanks thanks for sharing, it's very exciting.

A

Yeah, thank you so much if you're, watching this from home and and you have feedback and any comments you want to provide. Please do so. You can find us in the kubernetes workspace or you can shoot us an email or find us on twitter or find us on on github as well. Whatever medium of your choice, we would love to hear your thoughts on this or you can come join us at the next meeting, which is next thursday at 10 30 a.m.

A

Pacific time, so we do hope you are able to attend and we get to know you and you can get to know us and other members of the community and with that, thank you and enjoy the rest of your day.