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From YouTube: Jobs in Cloud Native (The Podlets, Ep 14)
Description
Our topic in today's great episode is how we think jobs in software engineering have changed since the advent of cloud native computing. We begin by giving our listeners an idea of our jobs and speak more to what a job in cloud native would look like as well as how Kubernetes fits into the whole picture. Next up we cover some old challenges and how advances in the field have made those go away while simultaneously opening the gateway to even more abstract problems. We talk about some of the specific new developments and how they have changed certain jobs. For example, QA has not disappeared but rather evolved toward becoming ever more automated, and language evolution has left more space for actual development instead of debugging. Our conversation shifts toward some tips for what to know to get into cloud native and where to find this information. We wrap up our conversation with some thoughts on the future of this exciting space, predicting how it might change but also how it should change. Software engineering is still in a place where it is continuously breaking new ground, so tune in to hear why you should be learning as much as you can about development right now.
For the show notes and transcript: https://thepodlets.io/episodes/014-jobs-in-cloud-native
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B
Hello
and
welcome
back
to
the
couplets
podcast
this
week,
we'll
be
discussing
the
thing.
That's
brought
us
all
together
our
jobs,
but
not
just
our
jobs.
I
think
we're
gonna
be
talking
about
the
different
kinds
of
jobs
you
can
find
in
cloud
native
land.
So
this
time,
I'm
your
host
nicholas
lane
and
with
me
our
brian
miles
howdy
and
kaliesha
campus
hi.
B
C
So
cloud
native
jobs,
what
is
my
job?
My
job
is:
I,
look
at
productivity
of
developers
and
people
who
are
using
kubernetes,
so
my
job
is
to
understand
cloud
native
apps,
but
also
understand
that
the
systems
that
they
are
running
on
are
complex
and
whether
they
be
Windows
or
Linux
or
Mac
base
being
able
to
understand
those
two.
So
really,
my
job
is
the
combination
of
a
senior
developer
composed
with
a
senior
level
admin,
whether
it
be
Windows
or
Linux.
So
maybe
I
am
the
actual
epitome
of
DevOps
and
you.
A
Yeah
I
job
is
so
I'm,
mainly
a
developer,
but
to
do
the
job
that
I
that
I
need
to
do.
I
need
to
be
a
bit
of
a
DevOps
person
as
well,
because
as
I've
talked
so
many
times
here
on
the
show
I
work
on
an
open-source
tool
called
velaro
that
does
backup
and
recovery
for
kubernetes
clusters.
So
I
need
to
be
able
to
put
up
a
cluster,
at
least
with
them.
A
Three
main
providers
as
your
Google
platform
and
in
that
AWS
studied
to
know
how
to
do
their,
how
to
tweak
things,
how
to
troubleshoot
things,
and
there
is
not
I,
don't
think
when
we
think
of
it.
Just
a
straight-up
developer.
There
usually
is
not
part
of
these
daily
activity,
so
in
essence,
I'm
I
think
I'm,
not
sure
how
we
would
define
the
cloud
native
job,
but
I
think
my
job.
A
B
B
So
my
job
is
I'm,
a
cloud
native
architect,
nun
or
a
kubernetes
architect,
I'm,
not
sure
what
we're
calling
ourselves
these
days
honestly
and
what
that
means
is
we
work
with
customers
to
help
them
along
their
cloud
native
journey
either?
That
means
helping
them
set
up
like
a
Cabrini's
cluster
and
I'm.
Getting
them
like
running
with.
You
know
certain
tools
that
are
going
to
make
their
life
easier
or
helping
them
develop
tools
in
their
cloud
environments
to
help
make
the
running
of
their
jobs
easier.
B
So
we
kind
of
run
the
gamut
of
developers
and
sysadmin
is
a
bit
and
consultants,
so
it
kind
of
touched
a
little
bit
of
everything
cool
and
so,
let's,
let's
talk
about
a
little
bit.
Let's
take
a
step
back
now
and
talk
about
what
we
think
a
cloud
native
job
looks
like
this.
For
me,
like
that's
kind
of
hard
to
describe
like
a
cloud
native
job,
seems
to
be
any
job
that
has
to
do
with
some
cloud
native
technology.
For
that
that's
kind
of
broad
right.
B
You
could
have
things
from
sysadmin
z--
people
who
are
running
their
cloud
infrastructure
for
the
company
who
are
like
managing
things
like
you
know:
rights,
access,
accounting,
that
sort
of
thing
to
people
who
are
doing
development
like
like
yourselves,
like
Brian
and
Kurt
Lisa.
You
guys
are
doing
this.
This
type
of
work
is
there
anything
that
you
think
is
like
unique
to
a
cloud
native
job
yeah.
A
It's
very
interesting
to
talk
about
I,
think
because,
especially
in
relation
to
we,
if
you
don't
have
a
cloud
native
job,
what
do
you
have
and
how
is
it
different
I
wonder
if
the
new
cloud
native
job
title
is
the
new
full
stack
developer
as
for
developers,
because
I
think
it
is
easy
to
conceptualize
what
a
cloud
native
job
is
for
system
admin
or
DevOps
person,
but
for
a
developer
I
think
it's
a
little
more
tricky.
What
right
is
it,
but
is
the
new
full
stack?
A
Is
it
now
that
the
developer,
even
if
you're
not
doing,
for
example,
I
my
application
runs
inside
kubernetes
as
part
of
s
is
an
extension
of
carbon
IDs,
but
some
applications
just
run
on
kubernetes
as
a
platform.
So
now
are
we
talking
about
developers
with
a
cloud
native
title
like
cognitive
software
engineer
and
for
those
developers
doesn't
mean
that
they
now
have
to
design
called
in
the
POI
consistently?
A
You
know
in
my
old
days
when
I
before
doing
this
type
of
work,
I
would
deploy
apps
they
II
was
not
all
the
time
there
was
a
system
every
every
single
job
I
had
the
system
was
different.
The
one
thing
that
I
love
about
kubernetes
is
that
if
I
was
just
a
regular
app
developer
again,
as
opposed
to
like
extending
coordinators
right,
if
I
was
just
building
not
just
building,
but
if
I
was
building
apps,
that
would
run
on
kubernetes
as
for
sustaining
coronaries
and
if
I
had
to
deploy
their
own
kubernetes.
A
If
I,
both
if
I
move
jobs
and
they
were
working
with
kubernetes,
the
process
would
be
exactly
the
same,
and
that's
one
really
cool
thing
about
I
want
my
in
other
words,
I,
wouldn't
mind
so
much
if
I
were
if
I
had
to
the
deployments
in
the
deployment.
The
process
was
the
same
everywhere,
because
it's
really
painful
to
do
like
a
one-off.
The
point
here
in
their
each
place
was
different.
A
I
had
to
write
a
ton
of
notes
to
make
sure
you
know
it
was
like
200
steps
and
if
any
one
of
them
went
wrong,
you
had
to
troubleshoot
and
I
work,
I'm,
not
a
systems
admin,
so
it
would
be
a
struggle.
It's
each
system.
It's
not
that
I
couldn't
learn.
Each
system
would
be
different
and
I
make
anyway.
I.
Think
I
would
not
from
the
tangent.
A
That
I
searched
on
LinkedIn
for
cloud
native
in
the
jobs
section
and
there
are
a
ton
of
job
titles,
a
job
postings
with
titles,
with
called
natives
called
native
in
the
title
like
a
lot
of
his
architects,
but
there
is
also
product
manager.
There
is
also
software
engineer.
I
found
the
one
that
was
senior
kubernetes
engineer,
so
it's
definitely
a
thing.
B
C
Right
so
I'm
gonna
blow
your
mind
here.
So
basically,
what
is
the
cloud?
The
cloud
is
other
people's
computers,
so
it's
OPC
and
what
is
kubernetes
well,
basically,
it's
a
way
that
we
can
safely
and
well.
Basically,
it's
a
way
that
we
can
run
our
software
on
other
people's
computers
aka.
The
cloud
kubernetes
makes
running
software
in
the
cloud
easier.
C
So
what
that
really
breaks
down
to
is,
if
you
are
reading
software
on
other
people's
computers
or
if
you
were
designing
software,
that
runs
well
on
clouds,
well,
you're
a
cloud
native
person,
so
it
actually
the
term.
The
term
is
basically
been
co-opted
for
marketing
purposes
by
who-knows-who
by
basically
everyone,
but
what
I
think
is.
As
long
as
you
are
working
on
software
that
runs
on
modern
infrastructure,
which
means
that
nodes
may
go
away,
you
might
not
own
all
of
your
services,
you
might
use
a
leased
database
server.
C
You
know
something
like
RDS
from
Amazon
everyone
working
in
that
realm,
working
with
software.
That
may
go
away
with
things
that
aren't
there
what's
doing
cloud
native
work
and
we
just
happen
to
be
doing
it
on
kubernetes,
because
that's
the
most
popular
option
right
now.
But
it
isn't
the
only
option
and
it
probably
won't
be
the
final
option.
C
Actually,
I
do
see
some
differences.
One
of
the
biggest
differences
is
that
anything
that
there's
a
lot
more
services
out
there
that
are
provided
to
help
you
do
what
you
need
to
do
so
10
years
ago,
having
a
having
a
database
provider
would
be
hard
because
one
you
wouldn't
have
the
network,
the
network
wouldn't
be
good
enough
and
your
hosting
company
probably
didn't
have
that
unless
you
were
at
AWS
and
even
they
didn't
have
that
so
now.
What
we
get
to
take
advantage
of
is
things
are
just
easier.
C
It's
easier
to
fire
up
databases,
it's
easier
to
add
nodes
to
our
production,
it's
easier
to
have
multiple
productions,
it's
easier
to
keep
that
all
in
order
and
it's
easier
to
put
automated
configuration
around
that
than
it
was
ten
years
ago
now
five
years
ago,
so
back
in
2014
I
would
actually
say
that
the
way
we
progressed
since
then
is
that
we
became
more
mature,
kubernetes
I.
Remember
when
kubernetes
came
out
in
my
I
thought
it
was
going
to
win,
but
mesosphere
was
mesosphere
with
Aurora
or
marathon
was
actually
better
than
kubernetes.
C
Just
it
worked
out
of
the
box
for
what
we
thought
we
could
do
with
it,
but
now
what
we
have
now
is
we
know
what
we
can
do
with
distributive
computing,
and
now
we
have
a
great
set
of
software
for
multiple
vendors
to
allow
us
to
do
what
we
want
to
do.
So
that's
the
that's
the
best
part
about
now
versus
five
years
ago.
Yeah.
A
C
A
A
That
was
one
one
other
place.
That
made
me
very
impressed
about
you,
because
I
followed
all
the
steps
and
at
the
end
it
worked.
So
you
just
was.
You
were
right
on
with
Whitney
as
far
as
the
instructions
went,
but
I
think
the
window
I
think
it
took
me
about
two
hours.
I
remember
took
a
long
time
and
because
this
again
these
are
things
that
I
do
once
know.
Why
I
don't
do
these
things
all
the
time,
and
now
we
can
use
terraform
scripts
and
have
something
running
in
the
matter
of
you
know,
15
minutes.
A
A
C
Quick,
quick,
sidebar
yeah,
we
can
use
terraform,
I
use
terraform
for
even
all
my
personal
infrastructure,
so
things
are
running
in
my
house.
Use
terraform,
like
all
my
work,
stuff
uses
terraform,
but
still
it's
sometimes
easier
to
just
write
a
script
or
type
in
the
commands
on
the
command
line
or
click
something
so
we're
still
not
to
the
point
where
using
things
like
terraform
actually
makes
us
not
want
to
do
it
manually
and
that's
how
I
know
that
we're
not
to
our
ultimate
level
maturity.
Yet.
B
There
are
certain
things
that
are
easier,
not
to
say
that
our
jobs
are
easy,
like
you
like
you're,
saying
really
yeah,
but
it
was
something
there's
long
lines
of
like
the
developer
now
needs
to
be
like
a
cloud
native
job
is
now
the
full
stack
kind
of
job
or
full
stack
developer
that,
like
that,
was
the
name
of
the
game
back
in
the
day.
Now
it's
a
cloud
native
job,
I,
actually
kind
of
agree
with
that,
in
a
sense
we're
a
cloud
native
developer
or
anyone.
B
A
A
Now
and
I
see
that
as
a
very
positive
thing,
it
might
sound
like
it's
a
huge
burden
to
ask
developers
to
now
have
to
know
this.
But
again,
if
we
stick
to
the
same
stack
the
burden,
the
burden
diminishes
really
quickly
because
you
learn
it
once
and
then
that's
it.
So
that's
one
huge
advantage.
If
it
works
this
way,
I
mean
I'm.
All
for,
like
you
know,
the
best
technology
should
win
now,
but
there
is
that
advantage.
A
If
we
remain
using
the
same
container
Orchestrator,
you
know
we
use
containers,
we
are,
we
can
run
any
we
can
run
in.
We
can
run
the
code
as
if
we
were
running
in
any
machine,
and
so
the
one
advantage
that
I
see
is
that
I've
had
cases
where
you
know
it.
Taste
was
work
on
my
computer
TM,
and
it
would
be
the
point
in
some
one
little
stupid
thing
wouldn't
work,
because
you
were
the
way
that
you
were
always
retracted.
A
A
Can't
just
imagine
if
I
were
a
developer
building
apps
to
run
a
coronaries,
an
admin
could
just
say:
okay,
he
you
have
these
resources
go
for
it
and
I
have
my
own
namespace
and
they
could
run
my
will
run
my
codes
as
if
he
was
running
in
production
environments
and
I'll.
Having
such
more
assurance
that
my
code
works,
he's
a
cleaner,
which
is
to
me
is
very
satisfying,
is
one
last
thing
to
worry
about.
If
I
deploy,
you
know
something
to
production,
I
have
already
tested
it.
B
A
But
he's
not
just
running
things:
look
you
can
actually
get
access
to
like
a
little
slice
of
a
let's
say,
an
AWS
server
and
just
ship
your
things
there
and
tested
there,
but
because
system
system
at
the
system,
admins
figure
they
can
just
carve
out
that
little
one
slice
for
your
team
or
even
on
the
per
person
basis.
Maybe
that's
too
much,
but
it's
its
relic
is
relatively
uncomplicated.
To
do
that
in
not
very
costly,
yeah.
C
So
we
gotta
think
what
is
QA
do
QA
is
is
supposed
to
be
responsible
for
the
quality
of
our
applications
and
when
they
first
started,
there
wasn't
a
lot
of
good
tooling.
So
a
lot
of
our
QA
people
were
manual
testers.
They
started
the
app
they
clicked
on
everything
they
put
in
all
the
inputs
and
Sawa
came
back
and
they
were
professional,
app
breakers.
C
We
I
say
over
a
decade
ago.
We
got
more
automated
tools
and,
moving
into
now,
you
can
automate
your
web
browser.
You
can
actually
write
software
to
do
all
the
actions
that
a
human
would
do.
So
what
we
found
is
that
QA
s,
profession
is
actually
matured
and
you
can
see
that
because
Google
I
don't
think
they
even
have
QA,
they
have
what
they
call
them.
Software
engineers
under
test
or
SDEs,
and
what
they
do
are
their
developers
and
their
own
right,
but
they
write
software.
C
The
pieces
worked
right.
They
both
put
out
hot
water
because
they
were,
but
together
they
didn't
work.
So
we
still
have
that
it
just
looks
a
little
bit
different
now
and
then
also
software.
A
lot
of
software
is
not
written
in
a
huge
monolithic
where
we
cycle
where
we
would
take
six
months
to
release
a
new
version
or
a
year
or
a
year
and
a
half.
Now
people
are
trying
to
turn
around
a
lot
of
software
quicker,
so
QA
has
had
to
optimize
how
they
work
to
work
in
those
processes.
They're
still
here,
though,
I.
A
Would
hope
so
I
mean
I,
can't
answer
the
question
or
if
the
question
is
we
have
a
much
QA
efforts
out
there
as
before.
I
don't
know,
but
I
would
hope
so
because
if
you
don't
have
a
QA,
if
you
knock
you
away
in
your
apps,
then
your
users
are
that's
not
good.
For
my
team,
for
example,
we
do
our
own
QA,
but
we
do
QA.
We
don't
have
separate
people
doing
it.
We
do
it
ourselves,
yeah.
B
A
Might
be
just
because
it's
pretty
special
I
mean
we
are
a
small
team
to
begin
with,
then
what
we
do
is
pretty
specialized.
It
will
be
difficult
to
bring
someone
in
and
teach
them
and
if
they're
just
running
Q
way,
I
don't
know,
maybe
I
don't
think
of
it
that
difficult
we
can
just
have
instructions.
You
know
run
these
commands.
This
is
what
the
output
should
be.
I,
don't
think
I'll
take
that
back,
but
still
we'll
do
it
with
the
way
ourselves.
So.
B
How
do
we
think
that
cloud
native
has
affected
jobs
and
the
job
market,
and
it
sounds
like
that
jobs
have
changed
because
of
cloud
native
they've
matured,
as
we
were
just
discussing
QA,
where
people
aren't
doing
the
same
kind
of
drudgery
or
the
same
kind
of
toil
that
they
were
doing
before
now,
we're
using
more
tooling
to
do
our
jobs
and
kind
of
lifting
up
each
position
to
be
more
cloud
native
II
write
more
developing
development
and
infrastructure
focus.
At
the
same
time,
at
least
that's
what
I
was
getting
from
it
all.
C
So
what
we're
finding
is
that
in
this
new
cloud
native
era,
that
jobs
are
maturing
and
they're
getting
new
functionality,
they're
losing
some
functionality,
some
jobs
are
combining,
but
it's
still
at
the
end
of
the
day.
It's
the
same
thing
we
were
doing
20
years
ago,
and
but
it
just
all,
has
new
titles
and
we
use
new
software
to
do
it,
which
is
good
because
I'm.
Some
of
these
ideas
that
we
came
up
with
20-30
years
ago
are
still
good
ones.
Today,
mm-hmm
and.
B
That's
actually
an
interesting
question:
do
you
think
that
it's
just
the
titles
that
are
changing
or
are
the
functions
changing
right?
So
it's
like
sis
admins
used
to
be
sysadmin,
now
they're
series.
Well,
then,
there
are
DevOps
for
a
while.
Now
there's
series
or
SRS
I
should
say,
or
our
support
team
are
now
series
customer
reliability
engineering.
C
It's
both
I
think.
It's
the
same
reason
why
all
engineers,
after
two
years
in
the
field
or
somehow
senior
engineers
people
feel
like
they
have
progress
when
they
get
new
job
titles.
Even
though
you're
the
most
junior
engineer
on
this
team,
how
can
you
be
a
senior
engineer
but
and
then
also
the
same
thing
with
crüe
shout
out
to
Google
for
making
that
term
popular,
but
really
what
it
comes
down
to
is
maybe
maybe
the
focus
change,
but
maybe
it
didn't.
Maybe
we
were
already
doing
that.
C
Maybe
we
were
already
doing
brazilian
resilience
engineering
with
our
customers,
and
maybe
we
already
had
great
customer
support
or
a
customer
success
team,
but
I
do
think
that
I
do
think
that
there
has
been
some
changes
in
jobs,
because
what
we're
finding
is
that
with
modern
languages
that
people
are
using,
so
teams
are
moving
away
from
C++
to
things
like
Swift
and
go
and
rust
we're
finding
that,
because
we're
our
software
it's
easier
to
write.
We
actually
don't
have
to
think
about
some
of
the
things
that
we
did
before
what
go.
C
Technically,
you
don't
have
to
worry
about
memory,
access
with
rust,
100%.
You
don't
have
to
worry
about
no
pointer
exceptions;
they
don't
exist
so
now
that
we
freed
our
developers
to
do
more
development
rather
than
more
debugging
than
what
we
can
find
is
that
the
jobs
will
actually
change
over
time,
but
at
the
end
of
the
day,
and
even
where
we
work
right
now
and
then
all
over
the
place.
People
are
there
devs,
they
do
op
stuff
a
day,
security,
stuff
or
their
pointy-haired
bosses
and
I
and
I
challenge.
C
B
C
Hold
on
one
second,
though:
okay,
that's
what
I'm
talking
about
with
the
marketing,
because
guess
what
it
is
support,
a
good
support
team
would
be
doing
all
those
things
whether
it's
called
customer
Araya,
bility
engineering
or
whatever.
It's
support
its
customer
success.
It's
getting
in
front
of
our
customers
problems
and
having
the
answers
before
they
even
ask
the
question:
that's
good
support!
C
So
whenever
we
label
things
like
CRE,
that's
that's
somebody
and
some
corporate
marketing
center
who
thought
that
that
was
a
good
idea,
but
it
doesn't
make
it
doesn't
mean
because
you
don't
call
that
they
did
it
it
CRE.
It's
not
good
support,
because
I
will
tell
you
in
the
past
at
digitalocean.
We
did
that
and
the
terms
theory
didn't
even
exist
yet,
but
we
were
out
there
in
front
of
problems
whenever
we
could
be,
and
we
thought
that
was
good.
That
was
good
for
our
customers.
C
A
I
wanted
us
to
talk
a
little
bit
about
if
for
people
who
are
not
working
in
a
cloud
native
space,
but
they
see
economy
or
they
want
to
move
to
towards
doing
something
more
in
that
area.
Why
should
they
be
looking
at?
Why
should
I
be
brushing
up
on
their
learning
or
incorporating
into
what
they
are
currently
doing
and,
of
course,
different
roles
that
would
be
different
for
each
different
role
that
we
have
developers.
We
have
the
Bob,
sorceries
or
or
admins,
or
operators
managers
recruiters
right.
It
changes
a
little
bit
for
everybody.
A
C
Hop
in
here
first
and
say:
I,
don't
it's
all
code
at
the
end
of
the
day
when
it
comes
down
to
what
we're
doing
and
cloud
native
for
ops,
it
doesn't
really
matter.
You
could
take
a
lot
of
the
same
principles
and
do
them
on
Prem
or
wherever
else
you
happen
to
be
I,
mean
I
and
I'm,
not
trying
to
diminish
the
role
of
anyone
that
we
work
with
or
anyone
in
our
industry.
Whenever
I
say
this,
though,
but
when
it
comes
down
to
it,
what
I
see
is
people
understand
the
operating
system?
C
Mostly
Linux
people
understand
public
key
encryption,
so
they
put
they
understand
PKI.
You
know
we
do
a
lot
with
certs.
They
understand
networking.
They
can
tell
you
what
how
many
IPS
are
on
a
23
and
if
I'm,
giving
you
cider
numbers
out
there.
These
are
things
that
people
know
I,
don't
think,
there's
anything
specific
for
cloud
native,
other
than
learning,
kubernetes
itself
or
mesosphere
or
docker
swarm
or
whatever,
or
the
tool
from
Hoshi
quark.
That
always
escapes
me
whenever
I
have
to
say
it
out
loud.
But
it's
all
the
same
thing.
C
That's
what
you
need
to
know
and
to
be
good
at
any
job
where
you're
doing
ops,
you
need
to
understand
the
theory
of
operating
computers.
You
understand
operating
systems,
networking
and
how
that
all
works,
and
then
all
the
things
around
and
some
security
for
developers.
Now
it's
a
little
bit
interesting
because
a
lot
of
the
apps
that
we're
writing
these
days
are
more
stateless.
So
for
a
developer,
you
need
to
think
more
about
my
app
may
crash,
so
any
memory
anything
that
I'm
holding
a
memory-
that's
important
can
go
away
any
given
time
so
either.
C
One
I
need
to
sort
on
more
than
one
thing:
I
need
to
have
it
in
descriptive
fashion
or
two
I
mean
to
store
it
in
the
database
instantly
and
I
would
once
again
challenge
anyone
to
say
that
if
you're,
a
developer,
who
understand
who
can
actually
understand
those
topics,
you
would
be
able
to
apply
for
a
cloud
native
job,
especially
in
this
space,
because,
frankly,
a
lot
of
developers,
a
lot
of
cloud
native
developers,
writing
apps
work
from
cloud
native
two
years
ago.
They
were
doing
something
else.
A
Yeah
that
sounds
right,
I
I
think
for
developer
is
where
you
said:
I
take
focusing
on
authentication
how
how
do
you
handle
secrets,
keys
and
in
the
question
of
row,
authentication
or
authorization,
and
if
you
can
even
like
do
well
first
in
developing
clients
and
servers
and
handling
sorts
for
that?
For
that
interaction
and
it's
I
guess
it
comes
down
to
being
well-versed
in
distributed
systems.
A
Development
is
why
this
whole
cloud
native
is
all
about,
and
on
top
of
that,
I
think
being
well
first
on
how
to
push
your
apps
into
containers,
you
know
creating
images,
creating
containers,
pushing
them
to
depository
pulling
them
from
a
repository
in
manipulating
created
containers
in
different
ways,
and
then
on
top
of
that,
yes,
you
might.
Maybe
you
want
to
learn
kubernetes,
and
we
can
talk
about
that
too.
But
I
wanted
to
give
Nick
a
chance.
It
talk
about
this.
This
aspect.
B
I
agree
with
Roo
much
everything
you
guys
have
said.
I
think
the
only
thing
I
would
add
is
like
really
understanding
how
to
use
and
work
with
an
API
and
an
API
driven
environment,
because
that's
what
a
lot
of
cloud
native
is
right.
It's
it's
using
someone
else's
computers.
So
how
do
you
do
that
is
via
an
API
like
we're
talking
about
containers
and
orchestration?
Those
are
all
done,
hopefully
with
an
API.
B
Luckily,
if
you're
using
kubernetes,
which
likely
you
are
it's
all
API
driven
so
using
an
API,
I
think
getting
familiar
with
that
most
developers,
I
think
at
some
point
are
familiar
with
that,
but
just
that
would
be
the
main
thing.
I
would
think
outside
of
what
you
and
Brian
have
already
said,
our
what's
needed
to
do
like
a
cloud
native
job
yeah.
B
Think
that's
a
good
place
to
start,
so
the
current
certification
that
exists
is
the
CKA,
the
certified
kubernetes
administrator
and,
I
think
that's
a
good
starting
place,
especially
for
someone
who's
not
really
touched
kubernetes
before,
if
they're
like.
How
do
I
know
like
the
basics
of
kubernetes,
going
through
the
that
certification
process,
I
think
will
be
a
huge
step
forward,
because
that
really
covers
most
of
what
you're
going
to
touch
it
on
a
day-to-day
basis
with
kubernetes
and
there's.
A
A
You
are
a
brand
new
I
think
it's
worthwhile
doing
the
developer
first,
because
it
is
mostly
the
commands
you
go
through
the
commands
just
so
you
have
a
like
a
knowledge
of
how
to
interact
the
kubernetes
and
the
admin
is
more
like.
How
do
you
manage
keep
it?
You
know,
how
do
you
troubleshoot
a
cluster,
and
how
do
you
manage
a
cluster?
So
it's
more
involved.
I
think
you
need
to
know
more,
but
in
any
case,
I
agree
with
you
that
you'd
help
because
it
serves
as
a
cell
service
for
what
to
learn.
A
B
A
Know
what
I'm
saying,
but,
but
if
you
like,
if
you,
if
you
don't
know
anything
at
all
like
you
are
like,
where
do
I
start
I,
wouldn't
recommend
that
that's
not
a
bad
place
to
start
yeah
or
if
you
would
know
some
things,
but
you
feel,
like
you,
don't
know
others
and
you
wanna
fill
in
the
gaps,
and
you
don't
know
what
what
your
gaps
are
also
same
idea.
What
do
you
think
right,
they'd
learning
taken
having
the
certification
would
be
useful,
I,
don't.
C
Know
some
people
need
it,
but
I'm
also
I,
don't
I
almost
so.
Barely
graduated
from
high
school
and
I
don't
have
a
college
degree,
so
I've
always
leaned
on
myself
for
learning
things
on
my
own
schedule
in
my
own
pace
on
my
own
terms,
but
some
people
do
need
the
structure
provided
to
them
by
certifications
and
I've
only
heard
good
things
of
people
taking
those
two,
those
tests
so
I
think
for
some
people
is
actually
really
good,
but
for
others
it's
it
might
might
be
a
waste
of
time.
Because
what
are
you?
C
What
will
actually
happen
if
you
get
that
certification?
If
you
work
at
some
large
companies,
I
do
know
this
for
a
fact
like
getting
your
AWS
certifications.
Your
certificates
actually
had
a
money
thing
behind
it,
but
a
lot
of
places
I,
don't
know,
but
it
couldn't
hurt,
is
that's
the
most
important
piece.
It
can't
hurt.
Yeah.
B
I
totally
agree:
you
learn
at
least
something
even
when
I've
taken
like
a
certification
exam
for
something
that
I
was
like
already
pretty
aware
of
I,
always
learned
at
least
one
thing,
but
taking
like
an
examination.
There's
the
last
question
that
you'd,
like
never
even
thought
of
but
I,
also
agree
with
Brian,
where
and
so
I
don't
have
my
CK
and
I
think
I'm
a
pretty
damn
good
expert
of
kubernetes,
so
I,
don't
think
anything
would
change
for
me
to
take.
A
B
A
Was
I
was
talking
about
like
I?
It
would
help
me
I
want
to
take.
Those
are
two
certifications,
because
you
will
help
me
fill
in
the
gaps.
You
know
I
know,
there's
a
lot
that
I'm
going
to
learn,
especially
with
the
admin
one,
so
is
using
the
the
curriculum
as
a
guides
for
what
I
need
to
learn
and
then
testing
did
I
really
learn.
A
C
That's
the
most
important
piece
what
you
just
said
it
made.
You
feel
good
because
you
take
certifications
to
test
your
knowledge
against
yourself
in
a
lot
of
cases,
so
I
think
it's
good
I
just
read
a
lot.
You
can
I
mean
people
cannot
see
behind
me.
I,
don't
think
I
have
as
many
books
as
carlesha
just
up
there,
but
I've
read
all
mine
except
for
like
four
of
them.
I
did.
A
Not
read
all
this
book
school
related
books
that
are
capped
because
they're
really
good
and
books
that
are
acquired.
You
saying
I
have
read
some,
but
no,
oh
the
entire
book.
Sometimes
you
know
I
use
for
reference.
All
right
definitely
have
not
read,
don't
be.
Impressed
have
now
read
all
these
books,
hopefully
one
day
when
they
retire.
Maybe
anyway.
C
So,
if
you
organically
came
to
cloud
native
as
I
did
as
I'll
explain
my
story,
you
know
I'm
not
really
interested
in
that
certification,
but
if
I
wanted
to
change
and-
and
maybe
I
wanted
to
change,
my
my
focus
to
doing
more
graphic
stuff-
and
there
was
a
certification
for
this-
maybe
I
would
think
about
it.
Just
to
make
sure
that
I
was
to
make
sure
that
I
knew
that
I
was
eligible
for
these
jobs.
That
I
was
four
so.
B
C
So
but
I
will
say,
and
since
we're
talking
about
books
and
talking
about
getting
yourself
into
kubernetes
land,
there
right
now
is
actually
the
best
time
to
buy
books,
because
there's
lots
of
them
and
I'm
not
giving
out
I'm,
not
actually
saying
that
these
books
are
super
awesome,
but
some
of
them
are
notably
this
programming.
Kubernetes
book
is
pretty
awesome
and
the
reason
it's
so
awesome
is
because
my
quote
is
on
the
back
of
it.
C
What's
gonna
say
yeah,
my
name
is
on
the
back
of
it
and
then
another
book
that
I
just
were
picked
up
lately
is
called
the
kubernetes
cookbook
and
it's
called
it's
for
building
cloud
native
applications
from
O'reilly
and
the
reason
I
like
it
is
because
I'm
always
since
I
mean
20
years
ago.
I
love
reading,
O'reilly
cookbooks,
because
small
problem
answer
with
an
explanation
and
then
there's
another
one
called
kubernetes
patterns
which
I
just
started
and
I
think
is
perfect
and
just
to
say
that
these
are
not
endorsements.
C
But
this
is
what
I'm
reading
right
now,
like
a
thousand
pages
here,
the
things
that
I
am
trying
to
get
through
right
now
to
keep
up
to
date
with
what
we're
trying
to
do,
because,
though,
most
actually
the
biggest
problem
with
what
we're
doing
is
that
we're
trailblazing.
So
a
lot
of
things
that
are
happening
like
the
way
that
kubernetes
advances
every
few
months
is
new
new
new
new,
so
there's
not
a
lot
of
prior
art
and
what
we're
doing
that's
public.
C
So
what
you
need
to
do
is
turn
yourself
into
someone
who
actually
understands
the
theory
of
what
we're
doing,
rather
than
the
practical
application
of
it
understand
that
piece
too.
But
you
get
understanding
theory,
which
is
why
I
said
I've
literally
been
doing
the
same
thing
for
the
last
25
years,
because
I
learned
how
to
program
and
I
learned
a
unix
and
then
I
were
learned.
Linux
and
I've
been
it'll.
Take
all
those
lessons
and
I
learned
networking
take
all
those
lessons
and
I
can
apply
them
all
the
time.
A
A
I've
been
trying
to
listen
through
YouTube
lectures
on
the
server
systems
and
I
have
a
lot
of
moments
of
aah.
That's
why
kubernetes
works
this
way
to
address
this.
This
problem
so
and
I
have
that
programming
book,
which
is
not
in
my
office.
They
have
to
find.
But
yes,
that's,
a
very
good
book.
I
have
this.
Oh.
A
C
A
C
C
C
It
I
actually
want
to
bring
up
another
thing.
You
say:
I
read
a
lot
I
like
to
read:
I,
read
a
lot
of
blog
posts
and
here's
another
crazy
thing:
the
YouTube
videos
from
like
cube
con
every
year
or
every
few
months
we
published
a
hundred
and
eighty
talks
for
free
and
there's
some
good
lessons
and
those.
A
And
I'm
going
to
give
a
tip
for
four
people
that
I
actually
caught
on
just
not
too
long
ago.
I
subscribe
to
YouTube
premium,
which
I
think
is
five
dollars
a
month
is
the
best
five
dollars
I've
ever
spent
because
I
as
I'm,
because
it's
really
I
don't
have
time
to
see
in
front
of
a
video
last
is
like
very
special
right.
It's
just
like
watch
something
or
rien
reading
is
also
very
after
it's
been
a
whole
day.
C
B
A
B
Totally
agree:
that's
I,
love!
Youtube,
you
know
ads,
as
Brian
said,
is
the
best
I'm
gonna,
throw
out
a
book
recommendation,
one
written
by
my
colleague
and
good
friend,
Craig
Tracy
up
co-written
called
managing
kubernetes,
and
it's
actually
like
I
was
saying
that
it
like
these
tech
books,
are
kind
of
boring.
This
one's
actually
a
lot
of
fun
to
read
it's
written
well
and
in
a
way
that
I
found
I
kept
turning
out
the
page
so
I
really
liked
it.
Yeah.
B
C
B
A
C
C
Right
so
we've
talked
about,
you
know
where
we've
come
from
and
we've
talked
about
and
things
in
the
space
about
the
jobs,
how
I
keep
up
to
date,
but
really
the
most
important
piece
is
what
happens
in
the
future.
You
know,
kubernetes
is
only
five
years
old,
so
theoretically
cloud
made
up
jobs
they're
only
a
few
years
old.
So
how
does
cloud
native
move
move
in
the
future
and
I
do
have
some
thoughts
on
this
one.
C
So
what
we're
going
to
see
is
what
we've
seen
over
the
last
two
decades
is
that
our
stacks
will
get
more
complex.
We
will
run
more
apps.
We
will
have
more
CPUs
and
and
more
networking,
but
it's
not
even
Moore's
Law
stuff
they'll
just
have
more
stuff.
So
what
I
find
is
that
in
the
future
it?
What
we
need
to
think
about
are
things
like
automation.
We
need
to
think
about
better
resilience,
apps
that
can
actually
take
care
of
themselves.
So
your
app
goes
down
what
happens?
C
Well,
nothing
because
it
brought
itself
back
up
so
I
see
that
the
jobs
that
we
have
now
are
just
going
to
enjoy
evolved
into
better
versions
of
what
they
are.
What
we
have
right
now,
so
developers
will
still
be
developing
the
more
interesting
pieces
that
we're
going
to
have
more
developers
because
more
people
are
taking
these
bootcamp
courses.
More
people
are
going
into
computer
science
in
school,
so
we're
actually
going
to
have
more
developers
out
there.
C
So
all
that
means
is
that
we're
just
gonna
have
more
problems
to
solve,
at
least
for
the
next
few
years,
a
generation
from
now
I
couldn't
tell
you
what's
going
to
happen,
maybe
we'll
all
be
out
of
work,
I'll
be
retired,
so
I
probably
won't
care,
but
so
just
think
about
this.
Now
is
the
literal
best
time
to
get
into
writing
software
and
specifically
for
cloud
native
type
applications,
whether
you're
in
operations
or
you're,
writing,
applications
that
run
on
clouds
or
anything
like
this.
A
B
B
The
wealth
of
knowledge-
that's
out
there,
that's
for
free
is
unheard
of
it's
unprecedented
and
yeah.
I
totally
agree
that
this
is
the
best
time
Brian.
If
we
go
by
your
your
thesis
throughout
this
entire
episode,
basically
we're
gonna
be
doing
the
same
thing
in
20
years
as
much
as
we're
doing
now.
This
is
the
same
thing
we
did
20
years
ago,
so
it's
probably
gonna,
be
like
you
said:
developers
are
going
to
develop.
Eight.
The
sevens
are
gonna
sis
administrate.
A
A
Prediction
is
that
we
are
going
to
have
greater
server
access
like
easier
server
access,
and
especially
the
developer's
case
anyway,
and
there
will
be
more
buttons
to
press
in
more
visual
tools.
So
you
don't
have
to
be
necessarily
logging
into
a
server
through
command
lines
will
be
there
with
more
tools,
abstracting.
All
of
that
detailed
work
that
develop.
C
C
A
I,
don't
see
why
we
wouldn't
move
in
that
direction,
but
before
we
wrap
up
unless
somebody
you
guys
want
to
make
predictions
to
I
really
wanted
to
touch
base
on
the
when
they
hire
inside
of
things.
The
recruiters
and
hiring
managers
before
interviewing
trying
to
to
like
I
can
imagine,
there's
a
whole
bunch
of
people
out
there
who
need
to
work
to
recruit
people
to
do
these
cognitive
jobs,
and
how
can
we
help
them
like?
Can
we
give
them
some
tips?
How
can
they
attract
people?
What
should
they
be
looking
for.
B
Well,
I
guess
my
thought
is
that
I
really
feel
like
recruiters
need
to
start
learning
the
technology
that
they're
hiring
for
I,
don't
think
that
they
can
hide
behind
the
idea
that
their
recruiters
and
they
don't
need
to
know.
If
you
you
want
to
hire
good
people,
if
you
want
to
like
beat
out
the
bad
people
or
whatever
it
is
that
you're
trying
to
do.
You
need
to
actually
learn
the
technology
that
you're
hiring
for
and
I.
Think
like
we're,
saying,
there's
now
a
wealth
of
knowledge,
that's
free
for
you
to
access.
C
C
Know
what
I
don't
think
there's
an
answer
for
that
I
think
it's
just
there's
there's
you
don't
know
and
they're
somewhere
and
there's
something
in
between
being
an
expert.
You
need
to
be
something
in
between
where,
if
you're
hiring
for
cloud
native
and
kubernetes,
you
can't
offer
a
job
that
has
one's
10
years
of
kubernetes
experience.
First
of
all,
kubernetes
is
huge
and
no
one
has
all
kubernetes
experience
throughout
the
whole
stack
and
second
of
all,
Cooper
he's
only
five
years
old.
So
please
don't
do
that
to
yourself
as
well.
C
A
Is
it's
gonna
sound
like
you,
I
asked
a
loaded
question,
but
I
just
now
had
this
realization
I,
don't
think
it
would
be
different
from
what
we
were
saying
like
what
we
were
saying
for
you
in
regards
to
giving
tips
for
people
to
prepare
themselves
to
make
a
move
into
the
space.
If
they're
not
working
with
any
of
them
staff
you'll
be
the
same.
Like
Estrada
says,
try
to
find
people
who
know
distributed
systems,
they
can
debug
well
I'm,
not
even
gonna,
go
into
like
working
well
with
people.
A
B
Yep
all
right,
well,
I
think
that
just
about
wraps
it
up
for
this
week
of
the
podcast
to
keep
us
podcast
I
thought
this
was
a
really
interesting
discussion.
It's
it's
kind
of
it
was
cool
to
like
talk
about
where
we
were
and
where
we're
going,
and
you
know
what
kind
of
brought
us
all
together.
As
I
said,
Nick.