►
Description
Today on The Podlets Podcast, we are joined by VMware's Vice President of Research and Development, Craig McLuckie! Craig is also a founder of Heptio, who were acquired by VMware and during his time at Google he was part of bringing Kubernetes into being. Craig has loads of expertise and shareable experience in the cloud native space and we have a fascinating chat with him, asking about his work, Heptio and of course, Kubernetes! Craig shares some insider perspective on the space, the rise of Kubernetes and how the increase in Kubernetes' popularity can be managed. We talk a lot about who can use Kubernetes and the prerequisites for implementation; Craig insists it is not a one-size-fits-all scenario. We also get into the lack of significantly qualified minds and how this is impacting competition in the hiring pool. Craig comments on taking part in the open source community and the buy-in that is required to meaningfully contribute as well as sharing his thoughts on the need to ship new products and services regularly. We finish off the episode with some of Craig's perspectives on the future of Kubernetes, dangers it poses to code if neglected and the next phase of its lifespan. For this amazing chat with a true expert in his field, make sure to join us on for this episode!
For the show notes and transcript: https://thepodlets.io/episodes/013-kubernetes-as-per-craig-mcluckie
Feedback and episode suggestions:
https://twitter.com/thepodlets
https://github.com/vmware-tanzu/thepodlets/issues
info@thepodlets.io
Special guest
https://twitter.com/cmcluck
Hosts
https://twitter.com/carlisia
https://twitter.com/joshrosso
https://twitter.com/mauilion
A
B
A
Mike
lucky,
please
help
I,
say
your
name
and
give
it
a
pretty
introduction.
You
are
super
well
known
in
the
computers
community
and
inside
vmware,
but
I'm
sure
a
lot
of
people
don't
hear
enough
from
you.
So
they
will
there
I'm
sure
they're,
not
enough
people
that
should
know
about
you
that
don't
know
about
you.
So
alright.
C
C
Bringing
traditional
enterprise
virtualized
workloads
into
the
very
sophisticated
Google
Data
Center.
We
then
went
ahead
and
as
our
next
project
with
Brendan
Byrne
started
kubernetes
and
that
obviously
worked
out.
Ok
and
I
was
also
responsible
for
the
ideation
in
formation
of
the
cloud
native
computing
foundation.
I
then
wanted
to
work
with
you
again,
so
we
started
head
to
little
startup
in
the
kubernetes
ecosystem
and
almost
precisely
a
year
ago
we
were
acquired
by
VMware,
so
I'm,
not
part
of
the
VMware
company
and
I'm
working
on
our
broader
strategy.
D
A
D
A
Me
start
off
with
a
question:
I
asked
I
think
it
is
going
to
be
my
go-to
first
question
for
every
every
guest
that
we
have
on
the
show.
So
people
are
some
people
are
really
well
versed
in
the
cognitive
technologies
and
kubernetes,
and
some
people
are
completely
not,
and
some
people
are
asking
really
good
questions
out
there
and
I
try
to
tune
in
because
I
am
now
I
want
this
before
still
learning.
So
my
question,
for
you
is:
what
do
you
think
people
are
asking
that
they're
not
asking
the
right
frame
that
you
wish?
C
A
very
interesting
it's
written
question
and
I,
don't
think,
there's
there's
any
bad
questions
in
the
world,
but
you
know
one
question
you
know:
I
encounter
fair
bit
is
hey
I've
heard
about
this
kubernetes
thing
and
I
won't
want
and
I'm,
not
sure.
It's
precisely
the
right
question
right.
You
know,
kubernetes
is
a
powerful
technology.
I,
definitely
think
we're
in
the
sort
of
peak
hug
phase
of
the
project.
C
There's
a
set
of
opportunities
that
you
know.
Kubernetes
really
brings
a
much
more
robust
ability
to
manage
it.
Abstract,
sway
infrastructure,
there's
some
very
powerful
things,
but
to
be
able
to
be
really
successful
with
you
know,
kubernetes
project
there's
a
number
of
additional
ingredients
that
already
need
to
be
thought
through.
You
know
the
questions
that
ought
to
be
asked.
C
Are
you
know,
I
understand
the
utility
of
kubernetes,
and
you
know
I
believe
that
it
would
bring
value
to
my
organization,
but
do
I
have
the
skills
and
capabilities
necessary
to
stand
up
and
run
a
successful
communities
program,
and
that's
something
to
really
think
about.
It's,
not
just
about
the
the
nature
of
the
technology,
but
it
really
brings
in
a
lot
of
new
concepts
that
challenge
organizations.
We
think
about
applications
that
exist
in
kubernetes.
There's
challenges
with
observability
when
you
think
about
the
mechanics
of
delivering
into
a
containerized
sort
of
environment.
C
There's
a
lot
of
do's
and
don'ts
that
that
make
a
ton
of
sense
there
and
a
lot
of
organizations
have
work
with,
are
excited
about
the
technology,
but
they
don't
necessarily
have
the
the
depth
of
understanding
of
words,
best
use
and,
and
then
you
know
how
to
operate
it,
and
this
is
so
the
second
addendum
to
that
is
okay,
I'm
able
to
deploy
kubernetes.
But
what
happens
the
next
day?
You
know
what
happens,
what
I
need
to
update
it
when
I
need
to
maintain
it?
C
What
happens
when
I
discover
that
I
need
not
one
kubernetes
cluster
or
even
ten
kubernetes
clusters,
but
a
hundred
or
a
thousand
or
ten
thousand,
which
is
always
starting
to
see
out
there
in
the
industry,
have
I
taken
the
right
first
step
on
that
journey.
To
set
me
up
for
success
in
the
long
term,
and
so
I
do
think.
There's
just
a
tremendous
amount
of
opportunity
excitement
around
the
technology,
but
also
think
it's
something
that
organizations
were
only
need
to
look
at.
C
D
True
and
I
think
if
there's
actually
I
mean
to
your
point,
you've
raised
a
number
of
really
you've
raised
a
number
of
assumptions
around
how
people
think
about
it.
I
think
which
are
interesting
like
even
just
starting
with
the
idea
of
the
packaging
problem
that
represents
containerization
is
a
reasonable
start,
but
so
many
people,
but
but
so
so
infrequently
do
we
describe
like
the
context
of
the
problems
that
all
of
the
problems
that
community
solves
that
frequently
I
think
people
just
get
way
ahead
of
themselves.
It's
a
it's
a
it's
a
good
disc.
C
If
you
think
of
the
that's
a
sort
of
very
highest
level,
you
know
the
waters.
Gonna
go
one
of
two
ways
with
with
the
introduction
of
the
hyper
scale
public
cloud:
it's
either
going
to
lead
us
into
a
world
which
feels
like
the
mainframe
year
again,
you
know
where
no
one
ever
got
fired
for
bother
finding
Amazon
in
this
case
or
buying
Microsoft,
whatever
the
case,
whoever
emerges
over
Thomas
that
this
determinant
force,
but
it
also
represents
some
challenges.
C
Where
you
have
these
vertically
integrated
closed
systems,
innovation
becomes
prohibitively
difficult
it's
hard
to
to
innovate
in
a
closed
system,
because
you're
innovating,
you
know
only
for
organizations
that
were
taken
at
dependency
and
I.
Think
kubernetes
has
opened
it
up,
not
just
in
terms
of
the
world
of
applications
that
can
run
kubernetes,
but
also
this
burgeoning
ecosystem
of
supporting
technologies
that
can
create
value.
There's
a
reason
why
startups
are
building
their
own
kubernetes,
there's
a
reason.
They're
looking
to
solve
these
problems.
I
do
think
we'll
see
a
continued
period
of
consolidation.
C
C
C
You
know
a
variety
of
different
vendors
emerging
with
your
pretty
clear,
well-defined
opinions
and
relatively
turnkey
solutions
that
address
the
gamut
of
of
capabilities
of
what
an
organization
needs
to
get
into
communities.
You
know
one
of
the
things
that
delights
me
about
kubernetes
is
that
you
know
if
you
are
a
sophisticated
organization
that
is
self-identifying
as
a
software
company,
and
this
is
sort
of
manifest
in
you
know
the
internet
space.
C
If
you're,
if
you're,
you
know
running
a
sort
of
hyper
scale,
internet
service,
you
are
kind
of
by
definition,
a
software
company,
and
you
probably
have
the
the
skills
on
hand
to
make
great
choices
around
what
projects
you
know
follow
the
communities
identify
when
things
are
reaching
point.
A
critical
mass
make
says
you're
running
in
a
space
where
your
system
is
Israeli,
your
system
is
relatively
homogeneous.
You
know
you
don't
have
just
a
sort
of
massive
gamut
of
workers.
C
A
lot
of
you
know
some
mainstream
enterprise
organizations
have
so
there's
going
to
be
different
approaches
to
the
eco
system,
depending
on
on
which
organization
is
looking
at
the
problem.
Space
I
do
think
this
is
prohibitively
challenging
for
a
lot
of
organizations
that
are
not
resourced
at
the
level
of
a
hyper
scale.
Internet
company
from
a
technology
perspective
where
the
day
job
isn't
running
as
a
production
service.
For
you
know
millions
or
billions
of
abuses
and
I
do
think
in
situations
like
that.
It
makes
a
tremendous
amount
of
sense
to
identify
and
work
with
someone.
C
You
trust,
an
ecosystem
that
can
help.
You
just
navigate
the
sort
of
the
sort
of
wild
map.
That
is,
the
kubernetes
landscape
that
can
participate
in
a
number
of
these
emerging
emerging
communities.
That
has
the
ability
to
put
their
thumb
on
a
scale
where
necessary
to
make
sure
that
things
converge
so
I
think
it's
I,
think
it's
situational
I
think
the
lovely
thing
about
communities
is
that
it
does
give
organizations
a
chance
to
cut
their
teeth
without
having
to
dig
into
like
a
deep
procurement
cycle
with
a
major
vendor.
C
You
know
we
are
so
much
better
served
as
a
software
community
if
we
can
preserve
consistency
from
environment
to
environment.
The
reality
is,
you
know,
as
you
start
looking
at
large
organizations,
enterprises
that
are
consuming
communities,
it's
almost
inevitable
that
they're
going
to
be
consuming
kubernetes
from
a
number
of
different
sources
and
whether
the
sources
are
a
cloud
provider
deliver
the
community
services
or
whether
they're
you
know,
hand-roll
kubernetes
clusters
that
a
dedicated,
centralized
IT
team
is
delivering
or
whether
it's
you
know
vendor
provided
committees.
C
There's
gonna
be
a
lot
of
different
flavors
and
variants
on
it
and
I
think
you
know
working
within
the
community,
not
necessarily
as
as
kingmakers
but
as
as
you
know,
sort
of
concerned,
citizens
that
are
are
looking
to
make
sure
that
there's
very
high
levels
of
consistency
from
offering
to
offering
means
that
our
customers
are
gonna,
be
better
served.
You
know
we're
right
now
at
a
time
where
this
technology
is
I
mean
it's.
D
Makes
sense
one
of
the
things
one
of
the
things
I
took
away
from
my
year.
I
was
just
looking
at
kind
of
back
at
my
ear
and
kind
of
learning.
You
know
consolidating
my
thoughts
on
what
has
happened.
One
of
the
big
takeaways
for
me
in
my
customer
engagements
this
year
was
that
a
number
of
customers
outright
came
out
explicitly
and
said.
D
We
are
not
going
to
be
measured
where
our
success
as
a
company
is
not
going
to
be
measured
by
our
ability
to
operate
kubernetes,
which
is
true
and
obvious,
but
at
the
same
time,
like
I,
think
that
that's
a
really
interesting
moment
of
awareness
for
a
lot
of
a
lot
of
the
people
that
I
work
with
out
there
in
the
field.
You
know
where
they
realized.
You
know
what
like
Cooper.
Do
this,
maybe
the
great
the
next
best
thing.
D
It
may
be
an
incredible
technology,
but
fundamentally
it's
not
going
to
be
the
measure
by
which,
but
by
which
we
are
graded,
success
right.
It's
going
to
be
what
we
do.
On
top
of
that.
That
is
more
interesting
and
so
I
think
that
your
point
about
you
know
there
will
always
that
ecosystem
is
large
enough.
That
people
will
be
consuming.
Kubernetes
from
multiple
sources
is
sort
of
amplified
by
that
right,
because
people
are
going
to
look
for
that
easy
button
as
an
honor.
Is
it
as
an
inroad
they're
gonna.
A
C
That's
entirely
truth,
you
know
what
I
think
about
enterprise
software.
You
know
there's
sort
of
these
sort
of
three
pieces
of
it.
You
know
the
first
piece
is
sort
of
a
sort
of
crystalline
core
of
enterprise
software.
That's
that's
consistent
from
enterprise
to
Enterprise
enterprise.
It's
it's
purchased!
You
know
from
primary
vendors
or
it's
it's
built
by
open
source
communities
and
it
represents.
B
C
Know
a
significant
basis
for
everything,
there's
the
sort
of
peripheral,
the
sort
of
sea
of
applications
that
exist
around
that
enterprise's
built
that
are
entirely
unique
to
their
environment
and
they're
a
relatively
fluid.
And
then
this
is
weird
sort
of
interstitial
layer,
which
is
the
integration
glue
that
exists
between
that
crystalline,
core
and
those
applications
and
operating
practices
that
in
enterprises
you
know
create,
and
so
I
think
you
know
from
from
my
side,
we
benefit
if
that
that
crystalline
cores
as
large
as
possible.
C
You
know
if
you're
operating
in
a
specific
space
like
the
telco
space,
your
problems
are
going
to
be
unique
to
telco,
but
they're
going
to
be
shared
by
every
other
telco
provider,
and
one
of
the
beautiful
things
about
kubernetes
is
is
sufficiently
modular.
It
is
a
pretty
well
thought
through
system,
so
I
think
we
will
start
to
see
a
lot
of
specialization
in
terms
of
those
integration
pieces.
C
A
lot
of
specialization
in
terms
of
how
kubernetes
is
fit
to
a
specific
area
and
I
think
that
represents
a
powerful
opportunity
for
the
community
to
continue
to
evolve,
but
also
think
it
means
that
you
know
we,
as
contributors
to
the
project,
need
to
make
allowances.
For
that
you
know,
we
can't
hold
opinion
to
the
point
where
it
precludes.
You
know
massive
significant
value
for
organisations
as
they
look
at
modularizing
and
extending
the
the
platform.
A
So
what
is
your
opinion
on
the
trends?
Maybe
it's
not
a
trendy.
Maybe
it
is
of
people
making
specialized
cooperate
in
system
kubernetes
operating
systems,
for
example,
we're
talking
about
telcos
I.
Think
there
is
a
kubernetes
OSS
for
specifically
for
telcos
that
strip
away
things
that
that
that
that
kind
of
industry
doesn't
ease.
Do
you
click?
What
are
the
trade-offs
that
you
see?
I?
Think.
C
I
think
I
think
it's
you
know
it's.
It's
almost
inevitable
that
you're
going
to
start
to
see
specialized
operating
system
distributions
that
are
tailored
to
container
based
workloads.
I
think
you
know,
as
you
start
looking
at,
like
the
telco
space
with
network
function
virtualization,
you
know
kubernetes
promises
to
be
something
that
we
never
really
saw
before
with
you
know
like
at
the
end
of
the
day,
talkers
you
have
very
broadly
deployed
opens
OpenStack
as
a
sort
of
primary
substrate
for
network
function
virtualization,
but
at
the
end
of
the
day
they
ended.
C
Deploying
one
rendition
of
OpenStack,
but
in
many
cases
you
know
three
four
five,
depending
on
what
functions
they
wanted
to
run
and
there
wasn't
a
sufficient
commonality
in
terms
of
the
implementations,
it
became
very
sort
of
vendor
centric
and
vulcanized
in
many
ways
and
I.
Think
there's
an
opportunity
here
to
you
know:
work
hard
as
a
community
to
drive
convergence
around
a
lot
of
those
kubernetes.
C
You
know
constructs
so
that
you
know
sure
the
operating
system
is
going
to
be
different
if
you're
running
a
NFV
data
plane
implementation
doing
a
lot
of
bit
slinging
it's
going
to
look
for
a
many
different
anything
else
in
the
industry
right,
but
that
shouldn't
necessarily
mean
that
you
can't
use
the
same
tools
to
organize,
manage
and
reason
about
the
workloads.
A
lot
of
the
innovations
that
happen
above
that
shouldn't
necessarily
be
tied
to
that
I.
C
D
Yeah
I
think
I
know
that
that
was
I
know.
That's
a
deer
topic
to
cha-cha
whoo-hoo
fought
that
battle
in
the
past
as
well
like
I,
do
think
is
another
one
of
those
things
where
it's
a
set
of
assumptions.
It's
fascinating
to
me
how
how
many
different,
how
many
different
ecosystems
are
sort
of
collapsing,
or
maybe
not
ecosystems-
how
many
different
audiences
are
brought
together
by
a
technology
like
container
orchestration.
You
know
like
like
that.
You
are
having
that
conversation
with.
D
You
know
what,
let's
just
change
the
paradigm
for
operating
systems
that
you
are
having
that
conversation,
but
let's
change
the
paradigm
for
observability
and
life
cycle
stuff.
Let's
change
the
paradigm
for
packaging
will
call
it
containers,
you
don't
mean
like
it's,
it's
so
many
big
changes
in
one
in
one
in
one
idea.
It's
crazy!
You
know
it's
like.
C
Saying
if
you
think
about
it
right,
like
yeah
like
I
always
say,
change
is
easiest
across
one
dimension:
right,
I
change,
everything
all
at
once
across
all
the
dimensions
but
gets
really
hard.
You
know
I,
think
I.
Think
again,
it's
it's
one
of
these
things
where
you
know
kubernetes
represents
a
lot.
C
One
of
the
one
of
the
challenges
when
I
want
to
work
with
was
yeah
I
walk
into
a
lot
of
customer
accounts
and
I
spend
a
lot
of
time
with
customers
and
I
think
you
know
based
on
their
experiences.
They
they
sort
of
make
one
of
two
assumptions
right,
there's
a
set
of
vendors
that
will
come
into
any.
You
know
an
environment
and
say:
hey
just
run
this
tool
against
your
virtual
machine
images
and
kubernetes
right,
and
then
you
have
another
set
of
vendors
that
will
come
in
and
say:
yeah,
hey!
C
You
just
need
to
like
turn
this
thing
into
twelve
factor.
Cloud
native
service,
mesh
linked
applications
driven
through
CI
CD
in
your
life
is
magic
right
and
then
you
know
in
those
two
cases
that
they're
both
you
know,
there's
some
cases
where
it
makes
sense,
but
there's
some
cases
where
it
just
doesn't.
You
know
hey
what
uses
a
24
gigabyte
container.
C
Is
that
really
solving
the
problems
that
you
have
in
some
misses
somatic
way
at
the
end
of
the
spectrum
like
there's
no
world
in
which
organization
is
rewriting
3000
5000
applications
to
be
cloud
native
from
the
ground
up?
This
is
not
going
to
happen
right
so
just
understanding
the
the
return
on
investment
associated
with
the
migration
into
kubernetes
and
I'm,
saying
where
it
makes
sense
and
where
it
doesn't
is
such
an
important
part
of
the
story
on.
B
That
front-
and
this
is
something
Duffy
and
I-
talk
to
our
customers
about
all
the
time
you
know
say:
you're
you're
sitting
with
someone
and
you're
talking
about
potentially
using
kubernetes
or
they're
thinking
about
it.
Are
there
like
some
key
indicators
that
you
see
Craig
is
like
okay,
maybe
kubernetes
does
have
that
return
on
investment
pretty
soon
to
justify
it,
or
maybe
even
in
the
reverse,
like
some
things
where
you
think,
okay,
these
people
are
like
just
gonna
implement
kubernetes
and
it's
gonna
become
shelfware.
B
C
Like
for
me,
it's
almost
inevitably
it's
as
much
about
the
human
skills.
As
anything
else
I
mean
look,
the
technology
itself
isn't
rocket.
Science,
you
know
think
I
think
the
sort
of
you
know
critical
success
criteria
when
I
start
looking
at
engagement,
you
know
is:
is
there
a
a
cultural
understanding
of
what
kubernetes
represents
right?
You
know
like
kubernetes
is
not
easy
to
use
it.
C
You
know
that
initial
wally
animal
to
the
face
is
kind
of
painful
people
that
are
used
to
different
experiences
and
you're,
making
sure
that
the
basic
skills
and
expectations
are
met
is
is
really
important.
I
think
there's
definitely
some
sort
of
acid
tests
around
workload
fish.
You
know,
as
you
start
looking
at
kubernetes,
it's
an
evolving,
it's
an
evolving
ecosystem
and
it's
maturing
pretty
rapidly,
but
this
tool
areas
that
need
a
little
bit
more
heavy
lifting
right.
C
So
if
you
think
about
like
hey
I,
want
to
run
a
vertically
scaled
OLTP
database
of
communities
today,
I
don't
know,
maybe
not
the
best
choice
like
and
look
if
the
customer
knows
they're
right
if
they
have
enough
familiarity
with,
if
they're
willing
to
engage
I,
think
it
makes
a
tremendous
amount
of
sense.
I
do
think
that
the
by
and
large
the
the
biggest
challenge
I
see
is
is
not
so
much
in
the
Cuban
airspace.
You
know
it's
easy
enough
to
get
to
a
basic
cluster,
it's
sort
of
two
dimensions.
C
This
is
stay
to
operations.
I
see
a
lot
of
organizations
that
have
you
know,
work
to
create.
You
know
scale-up
programs
and
platform
technologies.
You
know
before
kubernetes
there
was
may
sauce
and
you
know,
like
you
know.
You
know,
there's
obviously
PCF
that
we're
becoming
more
increasingly
involved
in
and
organizations
that
have
no
chewed
on
you
know
creating
and
deploying
a
sanitized
platform.
C
You
know
often
have
the
operational
skills,
but
you
also
need
to
look
at
like
why
why
you
know
like
did
that
previous
technology
really
meet
your
your
sort
of
criteria
and
MDU,
he
had
the
skills
to
operate
it
on
a
day-to
basis
and
often
is
not.
You
know.
They've
worked
out
the
day
to
operational
issues,
but
they
still
haven't
figured
out
like
what
it
means
to
create
a
modern
software
supply
chain
that
can
deliver
into
the
community
space.
C
They
haven't,
figured
out
necessarily
how
to
create
the
right
incentive
structures
and
and
experiences
for
the
developers
that
are
looking
to
build
package
and
deliver
into
that
environment,
and
that's
probably
the
biggest
point
of
frustration
I
see
with
with
enterprises
is
okay.
I
got
to
kubernetes
now
water
and
that
question
just
hasn't
been
answered.
They
haven't
really
thought
through.
Well,
these
are
the
CICE
processes
like
this
is
how
you
engage.
Your
cyber
team
to
you
know,
qualify
the
platform
for
these
classes
of
workflows.
C
C
That
just
needs
to
exist
that
I
think
you
know
people
often
trivialize,
and
it's
it's
worth
so
with
really
taking
the
time
and
you
know
taking
you
know,
picking
a
couple
of
projects
being
measured
in
the
investments
making
sure
you
have
the
right
kind
of
cultural
profile
of
teams
that
engaged
create.
That
sort
of
celebratory
moment
of
success,
make
sure
that
the
team
is
sort
of
metric
and
communicating
the
productivity
improvements
etc,
and
that
really
drives
the
adoption
or
engagement
at
the
border
customer
base,
craig.
C
D
So
you
would
mention
that
you
decided
you
wanted
to
work
with
Joe
again
you
formed
hefty
ofda
dough
was
I
was
actually
there
for
a
year.
I
think
it
was
around
for
a
bit
longer
than
that.
Obviously,
I'm
curious,
like
what
your
thoughts
about
that,
where,
as
an
experiment
with
you
know,
if
you
just
think
about
it
as
like,
as
sort
of
that
part
of
the
journey
did
you
do
you
think
that
was
a
success
and,
like
you
know,
what
do
you
wish?
What
did
you
learn
from
that
whole
experiment
that
you
wished?
D
C
So
I'm
very
happy
with
the
way
that
hip
tio
wins,
and
there
are
a
few
things
that
sort
of
stood
out
for
me
as
things
that
you
know
folks
should
think
about
was
if
they're
going
to
start
a
startup
or
if
they
want
to
join
a
startup.
You
know
the
first
and
foremost
I
would
say
is
design
the
culture
to
the
problem
at
hand.
C
For
you
know
we
were
looking
to.
You
know,
be
be
sort
of
passionate
advocates
for
kubernetes.
We
were
looking
to
walk
the
journey
with
our
customers
in
an
authentic
way.
We
were
looking
to
create
a
company
that
was
built
around
sustainability,
so
I
think
the
culture
was
good
and
I'm
encouraged
folks
that
are
either
thinking
of
starting
a
startup
were
looking
to
join.
C
One
I
took,
do
really,
you
know,
think
hard
about
that
culture
and
how
it's
going
to
map
to
the
problems
that
have
trying
to
solve
the
other
thing
that
I
think
really
motivated
me
to
do.
You
have
to
and
I
think
this
is
something
that
I'm
I'm
really
excited
to
continue
on
it
with
the
theme.
Where
was
the
opportunity
to
walk
the
journey
with
customers?
You
know
so
many
startups
have
like
massive
reticence
to
already
engage
deeply
professional
services
and
in
many
ways
you
know
like
it
was
fun
like
I
I
had
a
blast
there.
C
You
know
it's
a
great
company
to
work.
For
you
know
we
were
able
to
build
up
some
really
cool
tech
and
do
good
things,
but
I
got
kind
of
tired
of
writing
letters
from
the
future
and
it's
okay.
We
have
flying
cars
and
you
know
they
need
to
interact
with
the
customer.
They're,
like
I,
can't
stop
my
car
and
get
to
work.
It's
great
that
you
have
flying
cars,
but
right
now,
I
just
need
to
get
in
my
car
and
drive
down
the
block
and
get
out
and
get
to
work
right
so
walking.
C
The
journey
with
customers
is
probably
the
most
important
learning
from
heftier,
and
it's
one
of
the
things
I'm
kind
of
most
part
of
that
opportunity
to
you
know,
share
the
pain
you
know
get
involved
from
day.
One
look
at
that
as
your
most
valuable
apparatus
to
not
just
build
your
business,
but
also
to
learn
what
you
need
to
build,
and
so
you
know
like
having
a
really
smart
set
of
people
that
are
comfortable
working
directly
with
customers
and
are
invested
in
the
success.
Those
customers
is
so
powerful.
C
So
if,
if,
if
you're
in
the
in
the
business,
for
you
know
in
the
start
of
game
investors,
maybe
the
area
of
building
out
a
significant
professional
services
function,
because
you
know
that's
just
how
Silicon
Valley
works,
but
it
is
absolutely
imperative
in
terms
of
good
ability
to
engage
with
customers,
particular
on
nascent
technologies
full
of
gaps.
You
know
where
the
present
exists
learn
from
those
experiences
and
bring
that
back
into
the
core
product
it
really
it
was.
C
It
was
just
a
huge
part
of
what
we
did
and,
if
of
you
know,
if
I
was
ever
in
a
situation
where
I
had
to
advise,
you
know,
startup
in
the
sort
of
open
source
space,
I'd,
say
lean
into
the
professional
services
lean
into
field
engineering.
It's
it's
a
critical
way
to
you
know,
build
your
business,
learn
what
customers
need,
walk
the
journey
with
them
and
just
develop
a
deep
empathy.
A
What
with
any
new
technology
there
is
always
a
concern
about
having
people
enough
enough
professionals
in
the
market
who
are
knowledgeable
in
that
new
technology?
There
is
always
a
gap,
a
lag
for
people
to
catch
up
with
that,
so
I'm
curious
to
know
what
customers
were
companies
perspective,
customers
out
there
I
think
in
in
terms
of
finding
professionals
to
help
them
are
they
concerned
that
there
is
there's
not
enough
professionalism,
arkad
or
they
find
that
their?
The
current
people
who
are
admins
and
operators
are
having
an
easy
time,
because
their
skills
are
transferable.
C
This
is
a
huge
skills
shortage
right,
and
this
is
this-
is
one
of
the
kind
of
primaries
sort
of
threats
to
the
short-term
adoption
of
community
I.
Think
communities
will
ultimately,
you
know,
permeate
enterprise
organizations,
I
think
it
will
become
a
standard
for
distributed
systems.
Development
you
know
effectively
emerging
is
an
operating
system
for
distributed
systems
as
people
build
more
natively
around
kubernetes,
but
right
now
it's
like
the
early
days
of
Linux,
where
you
know
to
deploy
Linux
you'd,
have
to
kind
of
you
know,
build
from
scratch
type
thing
and
it's
it's
definitely.
C
It
is
definitely
a
challenge
and
for
enterprise
organizations.
It's
it's
interesting
because
this
there's
a
war
for
talent
like
there's
just
this,
like
this
incredible
appetite
for
Cubans
time,
there's
always
an
old
joke
around,
like
the
the
Job
Description
for
like
ten
years,
pivoting
experience
on
a
five-year
project
and.
D
A
C
That,
certainly
is
you
know,
is
something
we
see
a
lot.
You
know
I
think
you
I
take
it
from
two
sides.
You
know
one
is
recognizing
that
as
an
enterprise
organization,
you
are
not
going
to
be
able
to
hire
this
time.
You
know
just
just
just
like
accept
that
that
sort
of
sad
truth
like
you
can
you
can
hire
a
seed
crystal
for
it,
but
you
really
need
to
look
at
that
as
something
that
you
can.
You
know.
C
I
create
the
structures
to
support
them
and
then
make
it
their
job
to
help
permeate
that
that
knowledge
and
information
into
the
organization-
it's
just
not
something
you
can
just
bring
in,
because
this
the
skills
disturbing
system
in
the
border
world
and
then
for
professionals
like
that
are
interested
in
kubernetes
I
mean
this
is
this
is
definitely
a
field
that
I
think
we'll
see
a
lot
of
local
job
security
for
a
very
long
time,
and
so
you
know
taking
on
taking
on
that
effort.
Is
it's
just
what
was
the
well
with
the
journey?
C
And
then
I'd
say
the
other
piece
of
this
is,
if
event
is
like,
you
know:
B
M,
where
our
job
can't
be
just
delivering
skills
and
delivering
technology.
We
need
to
think
about
our
role
as
enablers
in
the
ecosystem
as
folks
that
are
helping,
not
just
you
know,
build
up
our
own
expertise
of
kubernetes
that
we
can
represent
to
customers,
but
you
know
we're
well
served
by
our
customers
developing
their
own
expertise.
It's
not
a
threat
to
us.
It
actually
enables
them
to
consume
the
technologies
that
we
provide
so
focusing
on
that
enable
men.
C
B
C
I
mean
it's
walkins
back
to
like
that's
a
catchphrase
that
Tim
seems
he
always
uses
like
if
you
want
to
go
fast,
go
alone.
If
you
want
to
go
far,
go
together
and
I
think,
as
with
almost
everything
in
the
world,
these
things
are
situational.
Right,
like
there
are
situations
where
it
is
so
pretty
cool
that
you
bring
the
community
along
with
you
that
you
don't
find
yourself.
C
You
know
carrying
the
load
for
something
by
yourself
that
you
just
have
to
accept
and
absorb
that
it's
going
to
be
pushing
straight,
like
working
with
an
engaged
community
necessitates.
Consensus
necessitates
buying
not
just
from
you
but
from
potential
competitors.
The
people
that
you
you're
working
with,
and
you
know
recognizing
that
you
know
they'll-
be
doing
their
own
sort
of
mental
calculus
around
whether
this
advantages
in
m'naghten
and
what,
but
hopefully
you
know,
I
think,
certainly
in
the
kubernetes
community.
This
is
general
recognition
that
making
the
underlying
technology
accessible
making
it.
C
Your
BIC
word
is
making
it
intrinsically
supportable
profits.
Everyone
so
I
think
there's
a
couple
of
kind
of
things.
I,
look
at
you
know,
may
make
the
decision
you
know
pretty
early
on
as
to
whether
this
is
something
you
want
to
kind
of
in
a
sparkle
fan
and
so
start
off
on
your
own,
an
innovator
on
whether
it's
something
that's
critical
to
bring
the
community
along
with
you
around
and
not
gonna.
Give
you
two
examples
of
this
right.
C
One
example
was
the
work
we
did
around
technologies
like
you
know,
valeera,
which
is
a
backup/restore
store
product.
There
was
an
urgent
and
critical
need
to
provide
a
sustainable
way
to
backup
and
recover
communities,
and
so
you
know
we
didn't.
We
didn't
have
the
time
to
to
do
this
through
companies,
but
also
it
didn't
really
matter,
because
everything
we
were
doing
was
was
built
as
an
addendum
to
give
Nettie's.
That
project
created
a
lot
of
value,
and
you
know
we've
we've
donated.
You
know
it's
an
open
source
project.
C
Whereas
if
you
look
at
the
work
that
we're
doing
around
things
like
cluster
api
and
the
sort
of
broader
provisioning
of
communities,
it's
so
important
that
the
ecosystem
avoids
the
tragedy
of
the
commons
around
things
like
lifecycle
management,
it's
so
important
that
we
as
a
community
converge
on
a
consistent
way
to
reason
about
the
deployment
upgrade
and
scaling
of
Cooney's
clusters,
because
you
know
for
any
single
vendor
to
try
to
do
that
by
themselves.
They're
going
to
take
on
the
responsibility
of
dealing
with,
not
just
you
know,
one
or
two
environments.
C
You
know
if
you're,
if
you're
a
hyper
scale
talk
about
respond
environment,
you
can
do
that.
What
we
think
about
you
know
doing
that,
for
you
know,
in
our
case,
hey
we
will
need
to
put
into
vSphere,
not
just
what's
coming
next,
but
also
earlier
versions
of
vSphere.
We
don't
need
to
be
able
to
deploy
into
you
know
all
of
the
hyper
scale
is
we
need
to
deploy
into
some
of
the
emerging
cloud
providers?
We
need
to
start
reasoning
about
edge.
We
need
to
start
thinking
about
all
of
this.
C
You
know
we're
a
big
company
and
we
have
a
lot
of
Engineers,
but
you
know
you're
going
to
get
straight
very
thin
very
quickly
if
you,
if
you
try
to
chew
that
and
multiply
yourself
so
I-
think
a
lot
of
its
situational
I
think
the
situations
where
it
does
pay
for
organizations
to
kind
of
innovates.
You
know
charge
off
in
your
direction,
run
an
experiment
see
if
it
sticks
over
time
open
that
up
to
the
community
as
it
makes
sense.
C
The
thing
that
I
think
is
most
important
is
that
you
just
wear
your
heart
on
your
sleeve.
The
worst
thing
you
can
do
is
to
present
a
charter
that
hey
we're
doing
this.
You
know
as
a
as
a
community
centric
open
project
with
open
design,
open
community,
open
source
and
then
change
your
mind
later,
because
that
just
creates
that
creates
drama.
So
I
think
it's
it's
situational
pick
the
part
that
makes
sense
for
the
problem
at
hand
figure
out.
C
You
know
how
long
your
customers
can
wait
for
something,
and
then
you
know
sometimes
you
can
bring.
You
can
bring
things
back
to
the
community.
It's
a
very
open
and
accepting
community.
You
could
look
at
as
an
experiment
and
if
it
makes
sense
in
that
this
experimental
form
factor,
you
know
present
a
cap
back
to
the
community
community
to
see
if
you
can
kind
of
get
it
back
in.
A
C
C
And
there's
all
kinds
of
options,
and
so
the
heart
of
it
is
there's
no
one
rule
right.
It's
it's
entirely
situational
like
what
are
you
trying
to
accomplish
on
what
horizon
acknowledge
and
accept
that
the
evolution
of
the
core
of
communities
is
slowing,
as
it
should
right
like
this?
It's
a
signal
that
the
projects
maturing,
if
you,
if
you
cannot,
you
know,
deliver
value
along
the
timeline
that
your
business
or
your
customers
can
absorb.
Then
then,
maybe
it
makes
sense
to
do
something
on
the
outside.
D
Think
one
of
your
earlier
points
about
how
do
company
know
anything
Josh.
The
question
was
around
companies
attract
talent,
or
that
was
really
she
anyway.
The
question
about
how
to
attract
talent,
I
think
you
raise
a
good
point.
I
think
there's
some
there's
some
relation
to
this
particular
topic,
because
frequently
I've
seen
companies
find
some
success
by
making
room
for
open
source
or
upstream
engineers
to
focus
on
on
the
kubernetes
piece
and
to
help
to
help
kind
of
drive
that
adoption
internally.
D
So
if
you're
gonna
adopt
something
like
a
kubernetes
strategy
as
part
of
a
larger
company
goal,
if
you
can
actually
make
room
within
your
organization
to
bring
people
who
are
to
support
people
who
want
to
focus
on
that
upstream,
I
think
that
you,
you
get
a
lot
of
ancillary
benefits
from
that,
including
it
makes
it
easier
to
adopt
that
technology
and
understand
and
actually
have
some
more
skin
in
the
game
around
where
the
open
source
project
itself
is
going.
So.
C
Yeah,
absolutely
nothing.
You
know
one
of
the
lovely
things
about
the
kunis
community
is
this
idea
of,
like
your
position
is
earned
not
granted
right,
the
way
that
you
earn
influence
and
leadership
and
and
and
basically
the
goodwill
of
of
everyone
else
in
the
community
is
by
chopping,
wood
carrying
water.
Doing
you
know
doing
the
things
that
are
good
for
the
community
and
over
time
you
know
any
any
organization,
any
any
human
being
can
become
influential
and
lead
based
on
on
the
merits
of
their
contributions,
and
it's
important
that
people.
C
You
know
that
vendors
think
about
that.
At
the
same
time,
this,
like
yeah
I,
have
a
hard
time
taking
exception
with
practically
any
use
of
of
open
source.
Like
you
know,
at
the
end
of
the
day,
open
source
by
its
nature
is
a
leap
of
faith.
You
know
it
like
you're
making
that
technology
accessible.
If
someone
else
can
can
you
know,
take
it
operationalize
it
wall
and
deliver
value
for
organizations.
C
C
Was
interesting
and
when
I,
when
I
starting
the
CNC
F,
you
know,
I
can
speak
from
the
position
of
of
where
I
was
inside.
Google
like
I
was
highly
motivated
by
the
success
of
communities
like
and
I'm,
not
just
personally
motivated,
because
it
was
a
project
that
I
was
working
on
like
I
was
motivated
to
see
it
emerge
as
a
standard
for
distributed
systems,
development
that
abstracted
away
the
infrastructure
provider-
and
you
know
that
was
was
you
know-
I'm,
not
ashamed
of
it.
It
was
entirely
self-serving
right.
C
You
know
if
you
looked
at
Google's
market
position
at
the
time,
if
you
looked
at
where
we
were
as
a
sort
of
hyper
scale
cloud
provider
instituting
something
that
enabled
the
intrinsic
mobility
of
workloads
and
could
you
know
shuffle
around
the
sort
of
cards
on
the
deck
so
to
speak
so
that
more
than
minimal
maneuvers
I
was
just
smart.
I
was
also
I,
also
felt
very
privileged
that
that
was
our
position,
because
we
didn't
necessarily
have
to
create
artificial
structures
or
constraints
around
the
controls
of
the
system,
because
you
know
for
you
to.
C
D
C
This
obvious
that
that
communities
would
have
got
as
far
as
it
as
it
did
so
as
I
sitting
up
CN
CF
I
was
highly
motivated
by
preserving
the
neutrality,
creating
structures
that
separated
the
various
sort
of
forms
of
government.
You
know
like
I,
always
joked
that
at
the
time
of
the
you
know,
creating
CN
CF
was
motivated
by
the
way
the
US
Constitution
is
structured.
C
D
A
C
C
There's
this
sort
of
predisposition
or
bias
towards
you
know
like
hey:
I've
got
this
monolithic
application,
it's
vertically
scaled
I'm
having
a
hard
time
with
the
sort
of
team
structure,
so
I'm
gonna
start
chewing
up
instead
of
micro
services.
That
I
can
then
manage
discreetly
and
ideally
evolve
on
a
separate
cadence,
and
this
is
an
example
of
a
real
customer
situation.
Where
you
know
someone
who
said:
hey,
I've
just
broken
this,
this
model,
they've
done
it
to
27
micro
services
and
so
I
think
a
couple
questions.
C
The
first
one
was
when
you
have
to
update
those
27.
We
don't
update
one
of
those.
How
many
do
you
have
to
touch
and
their
answer
was
27
I
was
like
you
just
created
a
micro
list.
It's
like
a
monolith
except
it's.
It's
just
parted
to
live
with
its
you've,
taken
a
packaging
problem
attended
into
the
massively
complicated
orchestration
problem.
C
I
always
use
that
jokingly,
but
but
there's
some
there's
some
real
like
there's
something
real
there,
which
is
there's
a
lot
of
secondary
things.
You
need
to
think
through,
as
you
start
progressing
on
the
slaughter
journey.
You
know
in
the
case
of
like
micro
service
development.
It's
one
thing
to
have.
You
know:
API
separated
micro
services.
That's
it
easy
enough
to
Institute,
but
instituting
the
organization
controls
around
a
an
API
versioning
strategy.
C
So,
as
you
can
start
to
establish,
you
know
stable
API,
with
consistent
schema
and
you
know,
being
able
to
sort
of
manage
the
dependencies
to
consuming.
Teams
requires
a
level
of
sophistication
that
a
lot
of
organizations
have
maturity
thought
through.
So
it's
very
easy
to
just
sort
of
get
caught
up
in
the
hype,
without
necessarily
thinking
through.
You
know
what
happens
to
a
stream.
It's
funny,
I
see
the
same
thing
in
in
functions
right
so
interact
with
organizations
and
they're
like
wow
yeah.
C
We
took
this
thing
that
was
running
in
a
container
and
we
turned
it
into
15
different
functions.
I'm
like
okay,
I
can
see.
What's
going,
and
you
saw
has
some
questions
like
well?
Do
you
have
any
challenges
with
state
coherency
and
they're
like
yeah?
You
know
it's
funny.
You
say
that,
but
and
because
these
things
are
a
little
bit
less
kind
of
you
know
transaction.
You
click
here
and
we
have
to
write
state
watches.
So
we
try
to
sort
of
watermark
state
and
watch
this
thing.
C
I'm,
like
you're,
building
a
distributed
transaction
coordinator
on
your
free
time.
I'm,
like
that's,
really
the
best
use
of
your
of
your
resources
right.
So
it
really
gets
back
to
that
idea
that
you
know
there's
a
different
tool
for
different
job
and
you
know
sometimes
the
tool
is
a
virtual
machine.
Sometimes
it's
not
sometimes
the
tool
is
a
bare-metal
deployment.
If
you're
building
a
quantitative
training
application,
that's
microsecond
latency-sensitive,
you
probably
don't
want
a
hypervisor
there.
Sometimes
if
the
EMAs
of
is
the
natural
destination
and
there's
no
reason
to
move
from
a
VM.
C
Sometimes
it's
a
container.
You
know.
Sometimes
you
want
to
start
a
container
just
modularizing
it.
So
you
can
run
a
set
of
things
next
to
this
next
to
each
other.
In
the
same
process
space.
Sometimes
you
going
to
want
to
put
api's
between
those
things
and
separate
them
out
into
separate
containers,
but
it's
it's.
It's
there's
an
auto
life,
there's
a
cost
and
there's
a
benefit
associated
with
each
of
those
transitions
and,
more
importantly,
there's
a
set
of
skills
that
you
have
to
have.
A
C
Mean
it's
it's
a
interesting
philosophical
question.
I
mean
he
certainly
masks
some
problems.
You
know
I've
ran
through
early.
This
was
like
years
ago
around
some
early
customers
who
confide
in
me
is
like
I,
think
we're
writing
worst
code.
Now,
that's
like
what
do
you
mean?
Is
that
what
used
to
be
when
we
went
out
of
memory
on
something
we
get
page
now,
we've
set
up
so
we
go
and
it
just
restarts
the
container
and
everything
continues.
C
So
there's
no
real
incentive
for
the
engineers
to
actually
go
back
and
like
deal
with
the
deal
with
the
underlying
issues
and
root
cause
it
because
the
system's
just
more
intensive,
intrinsically
robust
and
self-healing
by
nature,
I
mean
I.
Think
is
definitely
there's.
Definitely
like
some
problems
that
kubernetes
will
compound.
C
C
So,
just
you
know
just
be
respectful
of
that,
but
at
the
same
time
you
know,
I
do
think
that
the
the
discipline
associated
with
transition
to
communities-
if
you,
if
you
you
know,
pursue
me
if
you
walk
a
little
bit
further
along.
If
you
start
thinking
about
the
fact
that
you
know
running
a
lot
of
imperative
processes
during
a
production,
you
know
push
we're.
You
know.
Deployment
contains
effectively
AB
in
coffee,
with
some
minimal
kind
of
you
know,
post
deployment
configuration
changes
that
happen
like
it's,
it's
a
much
more.
C
If
it
sort
of
leads,
you
want
to
a
much
happier
path.
Naturally,
so
I
think
it
can
mask
some
issues,
but
by
and
large
the
types
of
systems
you
end
up,
building
are
going
to
be
more
intrinsically
operationally
stable
and
scalable,
but
it
is
also
worth
recognizing
that
it's
young
you're
gonna
encounter
corner
cases.
I've
run
into
a
lot
of
customers
that
you
know
or
will
push
the
envelope
in
a
direction.
That's
was
unanticipated
by
the
community
or
they
they
accidentally
find
themselves
on
new
ground.
That's
just
unstable,
because
the
technology
is
relatively
nascent.
D
C
D
I
think
the
last
we're
coming
up
to
the
end
of
our
time,
but
one
of
the
last
questions
I
want
to
ask
you.
We've
talked
a
lot
about
communities
in
this
episode,
I'm
curious
what
the
future
holds
like.
If
you
we
see
a
lot
of
really
interesting
things
happening
in
the
ecosystem,
around
kind
of
moving
more
towards
serverless.
There
are
a
lot
of
people
who
are
like
thinking
that
perhaps
the
a
better
line
would
be
to
move
away
from
like
the
infrastructure
offering
and
just
basically
I'll.
D
Let
you
know
allow
about
cloud
providers
and
stuff
to
manage
your
nodes
for
you.
We
have
a
few
shots
on
goal
for
that
ourselves,
so
it's
been
really
an
interesting
evolution
over
the
last
year.
In
that
space
Imperius,
do
you
see
kubernetes
having
you
know
like
what
sort
of
life
time
would
you
ascribe
to
it
today
like?
What
do
you
think
that
this
is
going
to
be
this
thing
in
the
10
years?
Do
you
think
this
is
in
five
years?
And
what
do
you
see
coming
coming
that
might
change
it
well,.
C
It's
interesting,
you
know
well,
first
of
all,
like
I,
think
2018
was
the
largest
year
ever
for
mainframe
cells,
so
we
hope
these
technologies
once
they're
there
in
enterprise
they
tend
to
be
pretty
durable.
Like
the
duty
cycle
of
enterprise
software
technologies
is
pretty
long
long
lived.
The
real
question
is,
you
know.
In
Tsukuba,
Nettie's
we've
seen
we've
seen
a
lot
of
technology's
kind
of
you
know
in
the
space
emerge.
You
know
the
sense
reach
you
know,
reach
a
point
of
of
you,
know
critical
mass
and
then
fade
as
they're
as
they're.
C
Distracted
by
the
technologies
is
kubernetes,
going
to
be
a
linux
or,
as
kubernetes
going
to
be
ma,
sauce
right
and
like
I,
don't
I
mean
I,
don't
I
don't
tend
to
know
the
answer.
My,
but
my
belief
and
I
think
this
is
probably
true.
Is
that
it's
it's
more
like
a
Linux
when
you
think
about
the
heart
of
what
communities
is
doing?
Is
it's
just
providing
a
better
way
to
build
and
organize
distributed
systems?
You
know,
I'm
sure
that
the
code
will
evolve
rapidly.
C
I'm
sure
there'll
be
a
lot
of
you
know
continued
innovation
and
harness,
but
we
start
thinking
about
the
fact
that
you
know
what
communities
really
done
is
broad
control,
a
reconciler
based
management
to
distributed
systems
developers
everywhere,
and
when
you
think
about
the
fact
that
pretty
much
every
system
these
days
is
distributed
by
nature,
you
kind
of
really
need
something
that
sports
that
model,
so
I
think
we
will
see,
we
will
see.
Kubernetes
sticking
will
see
it
become
richer,
will
start
to
see
it
becoming
more
applicable
for
a
lot
of
things
that
were
to
start.
C
A
C
Be
able
to
use
a
declarative
framework,
you
use
a
set
of
well
structured
controllers
and
reconcile
us
to
drive
your
kind
of
world
into
an
undesired
desired
state.
I.
Think
that
pattern
will
be
you
know,
it's
been
quite
successful,
are
going
to
be
quite
durable,
I
think
we'll
start
to
see.
You
know
organizations
embrace
a
lot
of
these
technologies
over
time.
It
is
possible.
That's
you
know
that.
That's
something
you
know
brighter
shinier
newer
comes
along,
you
know,
God
knows
you
know
anyone
will
tell
you
that
we
made
it
enough
mistakes.
C
You
know
during
the
journey
and
this
stuff
I
think
everyone
regrets
on
the
on
the
committee's
train,
but
I
do
think
it's
it's
likely
to
be
pretty
durable,
I,
don't
I,
think
it's
gonna
be
I,
don't
think
it's
a
silver
bullet,
but
nothing
is
right.
You
know
it's
it's
like
you
know.
Any
of
these
technologies
is
always
there's
always
a
cost
in
this
benefit
associated
with
it.
The
benefits
are
relatively
well
understood,
but
there's
gonna
be
different
tools
to
do
different
jobs.
There's
gonna
be
new
patterns
that
emerge
that
simplify
things
like
kubernetes.
C
D
Has
been
interesting
watching
in
Cooper,
news
itself
evolve
in
that
moving
target
like
some
of
the
other
technologies,
I've,
seen
kind
of
stacking
on
there
one
solution
and
then
and
don't
grow
further,
but
that's
definitely
not
what
I
see
within
this
community.
It's
like
always
coming
up
with
something
new
anyway.
Thank
you
very
much
for
your
time.
That
was
an
incredible
session.
Yeah.
A
C
Great
session
I
guess
you
know
this
the
one
thing
that
was
going
through
my
head
earlier
and
say,
which
is
you
know
as
you
as
you
look
at
these
technologies?
There's
there's
sort
of
these
two
duty
cycles.
There's
the
hype
duty
cycle
where
technology
ascends
in
awareness
and
everyone
looks
it
is
as
an
answer
to
only
everything's
and
then
there's
the
sort
of
readiness
duty
cycle
which
is
sometimes
all
set.
You
know,
I
do
think
we're
we're,
certainly
peak
hyper
at
non-cuban
at
ease.
If
you
attended,
Kukoc
I
do
think
we're.
C
There's
this
perhaps
a
gap
between
the
promise
and
the
reality.
You
know
for
a
lot
of
organizations
yeah,
it's
always
just
counseled
caution
and
just
be
judicious
about
how
you
approach
this,
but
it's
a
very
powerful
technology
and
I
see
a
very
bright
future
for
it.
So
you
know
thanks
for
your
time
and
appreciate.