►
Description
Mark and Zooko will traverse a wide range of stories and insights in their journey from Web2 to Web3.
B
C
Yeah
and
and
jay,
if
you
don't
know,
is-
is
the
the
leader
of
a
little
spin-off
of
twitter
called
project
bluesky,
which
is
trying
to
make
decentralized
web
3
successor
to
twitter
but
yeah.
She,
she
posted
a
blog
post
recently
about
web3.
She
set
out
to
write
the
whole
thing
explaining
it
to
people
without
using
the
word
decentralized
and
without
using
the
word
distributed,
which
I
thought
was
a
great
way
to
do
it,
and
what
she
came
up
with
was
that
web
one
was
the
hosted
web
where
you
had
to
run
your
web
server.
C
B
B
What
we're
really
about
is
interact
is
is
creating
arrangements
for
interacting
with
each
other
and,
for
example,
the
smart
contracting
is
all
about
creating
arrangements
for
cooperation
with
with
limited
vulnerability
and
the
transition
from
web
2
to
web
3.
In
that
context,
is
removing
third-party
vulnerability
becoming
much
less
vulnerable
to
third
parties,
so
that
the
residual
vulnerability
is
much
more
to
each
other
and
then
the
contract
structures.
Those
relationships
reduce
those
vulnerabilities.
B
C
That's
that's
really
related
to
what
I
was
saying.
The
the
the
sort
of
user
experience
for
a
coder
in
my
opinion,
of
using
web3
instead
of
of
web
2
is
like
deployment
is
easier
once
you
deploy
it
stays
deployed
without
maintenance
effort
on
your
part
and
to
what
you're
saying
the
difference
is
that
in
web
2,
when
you
get
that
positive
user
experience,
the
way
you
get
it
is
by
relying
on
and
becoming
vulnerable
to
some
platform
yeah
and
in
web
3.
C
B
Yes,
and
that
lack
of
vulnerability
is
the
source
of
the
credibility,
the
source
of
the
the
ability
for
us
to
understand
that
our
risk
in
contract
contracting
is
to
each
other
and
to
our
understanding
of
the
contract
that
we've
removed.
This
additional
risk
to
corruption
of
the
platform,
and
it's
not,
and
it's
not
just
the
risk
of
corruption
to
the
platform
is
not
just
whether
the
platform
provider
themselves
has
ill
intention.
C
B
Yes,
and
I
think
that
in
a
lot
of
ways,
you
know
you-
and
I
have
been
working
on
web
3
by
this
by
these
definitions
in
some
ways
since
before
web,
one,
that
the
the
point
of
a
lot
of
these
cryptographic
protocols
is
that
the
cryptographic
protocol
itself
removes
the
risk
to
third-party
platforms.
It's
it's
just
my
system
that
that,
for
what?
B
Yeah
and
then
the
interesting
thing
in
that
regard
is
that
our
vision
of
the
our
web
3
oriented
vision,
our
vision
of
smart
contracting,
our
vision
of
anonymous
transactions
back
then,
most
of
that
evolved
before
the
invention
of
blockchain,
and
it's
interesting
to
to
come
back
to
that
and
think
well,
what
is
it
that
blockchain
really
contributes?
Why
is
why
is
the
current
blockchain-based
world
of
smart
contracting?
B
B
Yeah
yeah
and
I
think
that's
one
of
the
things
that
I
certainly
underestimated
and
is
I
I
expected
that
just
competition
and
reputation
feedback
would
result
in
a
more
decentralized
network
of
competitors
and
more
consumer
choice
and
the
what
we've
seen
is
that
that
the
convenience
offered
by
these
internet
giants
have
made
people
willing
at
first
to
centralize
their
vulnerabilities
with
them
yeah.
But
then,
once
those
vulnerabilities
are
centralized,
then
they
become
irresistible
targets
for
corruption.
C
C
Right
I
like
to
divide
it's
very
simple:
you
get
a
lot
of
intellectual
leverage
out
of
dividing
everything
in
the
world
into
consensual
and
non-consensual
and
then
treating
the
two
things
differently,
but
because
of
my
observations
about
the
evolution
of
our
whole
society
and
our
whole
industry
in
light
of
web
2
and
the
tech
giants
and
so
forth,
I
I've
been
trying
to
make
that
more
nuanced
by
thinking.
Consent.
C
They
have
the
option
to
use
the
biggest
platform
with
the
most
users
and
the
most
strong
network
effect,
and
the
question
is:
what's
their
alternative.
If
they're
dissatisfied
with
something
about
that
and
to
the
greater
degree
that
you
have
viable
alternatives,
then
it's
fair
in
my
simple
intellectual
model
to
say
that
you're
consenting
to
whatever
the
the
offer
is
that
that
platform
gives
you,
but
to
the
greater
degree
that
you
don't
have
a
second
best
alternative.
It's
just
not
viable.
C
You
couldn't
survive
on
the
you
know
if
you,
for,
if
you
chose
to
you,
know,
leave
the
dominant
platform
and
go
to
the
to
the
minority
platform
and
that
you
just
that,
wouldn't
be
a
viable
business
or
a
viable
life
for
you,
then
the
the
the
terms
that
the
big
platform
is
offering.
You
are
less
something
that
you're
consenting
to
and
more
something
that
you
are
obligated
to
accept.
C
And
not
even
the
creators
of
that
initial
platform,
there's
this
lovely
aspect
of
blockchain
as
a
platform
that
once
you
decide
to
move
there
and
spend
your
your
effort
setting
up
there
it's
difficult
or
impossible
for
anyone,
including
the
original
creators,
to
change
the
terms
right
when
you
log
on
you
get
a
new
terms
of
service
and
it
says:
okay,
now
we're
going
to
start,
scraping
your
data
and
selling
it
to
advertisers
or
whatever
that
happens
all
the
time
on
a
centralized
platform.
But
it's
difficult
or
impossible
for
a
blockchain
to
do
that.
C
Yeah
and
for
those
who
don't
know,
zcash
is
a
blockchain.
It's
one
of
the
generation,
approximately
the
same
generation
as
ethereum.
So
from
the
perspective
of
the
web3
world,
it's
a
grizzled
veteran,
it's
a
whole
five
years
old.
Now
it's
a
toddler
but
yeah
zcash
is
a
blockchain
which,
like
bitcoin,
is
mostly
just
about
moving
money
and
encrypted
messages
back
and
forth,
and
the
the
the
special
thing
about
zcash
is
that
it
builds
in
end-to-end
encryption
on
top
of
blockchain.
So
we
get
both
of
those
properties.
B
Yeah
one
of
the
things
that
that
a
lot
of
people
don't
understand
about
most
of
the
other
blockchains
is
the
traceability.
It
is
true
that
that
the
people
transacting
can
be
anonymous
or
pseudonymous.
They
don't
reveal
their
their
genuine
identity,
but
they
leave
behind
this
enormous
trail
of
traceable
transactions
yeah
and
that
the
more
people
take
a
look
at
how
susceptible
that
is
to
being
reverse
engineered
by
people.
Doing
statistics
on
that
whole
transaction
history
and
trying
to
correlate
it
with
what
happens
in
the
world.
C
Yeah
I've
seen
this
a
lot.
I
guess
you
know
bitcoin.
The
original
blockchain
is
something
on
the
order
of
12
years
old.
Now
I've
been
watching
it
closely
the
whole
time.
I
remember
trying
to
persuade
you
markham
that
it
was
a
a
viable
new
technology
for
for
the
first
few
years,
I'm
the
author
of
the
first
ever
blog
post
posted
to
the
internet
about
bitcoin.
What
was
my
point?
C
My
point
is
even
now,
12
years
in
one
of
the
most
common
conversations
that
I
overhear
or
that
I
have
with
people,
is
people
saying
wait,
I
thought
this
new
bitcoin,
slash,
blockchain,
slash,
web3
stuff
was
all
inherently
anonymous
and
other
people
saying
yeah.
I
thought
so
too,
like
that's.
That's
sort
of
the
level
of
of
learning
that
that
the
rest
of
the
world
is
at
is
realizing
that
blockchain.
While
it
does
a
whole
lot
of
great
things,
it
does
not
inherently
protect
anyone's
privacy,
although
zcash
does,
which
is
why
we
made
zcash.
C
B
C
B
C
Right
so
yes,
some
things
you
want
to
reveal
either
to
some
specific
users
or
or
or
you
want
to
reveal
some
things
to
the
whole
world.
So
I
agree
with
you.
The
the
best
approach
is
to
be
clear
from
the
beginning
about
which
is
which
so
that,
as
we
improve
the
technology,
we
can
take
advantage
of
that
both
for
privacy
and
also
for
performance
and
scalability
right.
You
know,
there's
this
there's
this
deep
connection
that
I
learned
from
from
my
brother
nathan,
who's.
C
But
of
course
you
do
still
want
to
reveal
information
on
purpose
to
other
people
or
even
to
the
whole
world,
and
scalability
in
computers
is
largely
about.
You
don't
want
information
to
get
unnecessarily
transmitted
or
computed,
because
that's
going
to
bog
you
down
so
scalability
and
privacy
may,
like
particular,
but
also
what
you
say
about
being
principled
about
separating
the
intended
transmission
of
each
piece
of
information.
B
B
Selective
disclosure,
thank
you
where
you
get
to
choose
in
model,
what's
being
revealed
and
still
get
for
what
you
are
for
what
you
are
revealing.
You
get
all
the
benefits
yeah
of
the
mutually
trusted
platform,
so
that
the
the
people
you're
revealing
it
to
can
see
that
the
information
being
revealed
is
authentic.
C
Yeah,
you
know,
there's
a
bigger
social
discussion,
that
I've
been
paying
a
lot
of
attention
to
there's
a
lot
of
people,
especially
from
my
generation
who
say
well
yeah.
When
I
was
growing
up,
I
cared
about
privacy
but
kids
these
days,
don't
because
they
they
over
share
and
I
always
think
that's
the
wrong
meaning
of
privacy.
Privacy
isn't
about
sharing
less
privacy
is
about
sharing
with
consent
sharing
on
purpose,
and
I
think
kids,
these
days
are
totally
into
consent
and
control
over
what
they
share
with
whom
that
makes
sense.
B
C
Yeah
yeah
transparency
is
really
valuable.
There's
there's
an
aspect
of
zcash
which
is
sort
of
nuanced.
Everyone
learns
well.
You
know
most
people
start
by
thinking
that
bitcoin
is
private
and
then,
if
they
get
past
that
they
start
thinking,
okay,
so
bitcoin
leaks
a
bunch
of
information
about
you
whenever
you
use
it,
but
zcash
is
private
and
then,
if
they
get
to
the
next
level,
they
realize
you
know.
Zcash
is
really
great
for
both
transparency
and
privacy
and
those
are
both
useful
for
different
purposes.
B
Yeah,
so
so
bring
this
to
the
object
capability
view
that
agaric
builds
on
and
how
and
what
I
mean
by
the
the
in
model
versus
out
of
model
revealing
of
information
in
pure
object
capability
model.
The
the
invocation,
the
the
use
of
an
object
reference
to
invoke
an
object
is
the
only
causal
pathway.
It's
the
only
way
by
which
one
object
gets
to
affect
the
world
outside
of
itself
is
by
communicating
to
some
object.
It
has
a
reference
to
so.
B
Ideally
only
the
information
only
makes
it
from
the
transmitting
object,
the
receiving
object
and
there's
no
other
information
being
leaked.
But
when
you
run
this
on
top
of
the
current
transparent
blockchains
as
we're
doing,
then
everything
that
happens
on
the
blockchain
is
also
publicly
visible.
So
right.
C
C
Let
me
just
let
me
just
interrupt
to
point
out
that
that's
really
beautiful
about
the
object
capability
model,
there's
this
amazing
sort
of
rhyme
or
analogy
or
connection
between
this
computer
science
concept,
of
which
you
are
the
the
prime
advocate
and
systematizer
of
the
object
capability
model.
There's
just
and
the
there's.
C
If
there's
this
this
very
explicit
moment
when
the
coder
either
does
or
doesn't
pass
the
reference
as
an
argument
to
the
function
and
that's
their
expression
of
intent,
that
they
want
that
information
to
get
shared
there
and
if
they
do
not
express
that,
then,
by
default
on
the
object
capability
model,
that
information
will
be
private
or
unavailable
to
the
other
side.
Right.
B
That's
right:
that's
right,
we're,
starting
with
a
baseline
of
of
no
implicit
authority,
no
implicit
communication
yeah
so
that
that
all
interaction
has
to
be
by
consent.
But
then
we
take
all
of
that
and
currently
run
it
on
top
of
a
transparent
blockchain
right.
So,
in
order
to
prepare
for
this
future
transition,
the
design
rule
we're
adopting
is
that
for
all
codes
running
on
the
blockchain.
C
B
Yeah
yeah
and
I
think
that
the
result
of
doing
this
for
general
purpose
computation
and
doing
it
for
contractual
relationships
is
suddenly.
We
have
the
right
of
contract
back.
Suddenly,
we
can
create
complex
cooperative
arrangements
with
each
other
that
are
as
uncensorable
as
our
ability
to
communicate
with
each
other.
B
B
The
world
is
in
societies
in
which
there's
really
no
significant
rule
of
law
system
they're
operating
under
they
have
no
functioning
legal
system.
They
have
no
independent
judiciaries,
etc
right
and
their
abilities
to
just
lead
good
lives
by
by
cooperating
with
each
other,
are
are
subject
to
all
sorts
of
coercive
interference
by
others.
C
C
C
B
Yeah
yeah
and
that
we
can
we're
creating
this
kind
of
predictable,
rule-based
medium
for
for
voluntary
consent,
based
interaction
in
a
jurisdictional
free
manner,
as
our
conversation
right
now
is
a
good
example
of
we're
not
most
of
our
interactions
with
each
other.
These
days
are
not
jurisdiction-based.
B
I
don't
know
where
you're
located
in
the
world
right
now
and
I
don't
need
to
care,
but
all
of
that
conventional
systems
of
rule
of
law
are
all
based
in
jurisdictional
governments
which
no
longer
even
fit
the
nature
of
the
interactions
we're
having
with
each
other
so
giving
people
this
other
medium
for
bringing
about
the
kinds
of
predictable
cooperative
interaction
that
they're
normally,
they
would
normally
turn
to
unreliable
jurisdictional
systems
for
is
really
great.
Liberating
power
we're
bringing
to
the
world.