Beacon, New York Planning Board Meetings, 11 Apr 2023

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From YouTube: Beacon Planning Board 4-11-23

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The City of Beacon Planning Board Meeting from April 11, 2023

A

So yeah: well, uh it's seven o'clock now we're gonna start the training session of our meeting and then.

B

A

At 7, 30 we'll start our regular agenda. So uh with that Clark has some information he wants to share with us around the city's thinking on affordable housing.

C

Yes, the council had me over last Monday or I guess a week from Monday and um I wanted to want to have a workshop on affordable housing. That seems to be a high priority on their list right now, and so they asked me to come in and make some recommendations about how we could deal with zoning to provide some incentives or uh jump start some affordable housing options in the city, additional ones.

C

So the part of the memo that I put together for the council um I thought it'd be good to get some feedback from the planning board.

C

um The first idea I didn't sort of on the back burner for a while, but it seems to me the most logical thing to do. The city has a senior affordable housing overlay District that nobody pays much attention to, because it was put in place in 2012 to allow um the hospital to be converted the affordable housing. So they customized the zoning Provisions in that section for that particular building.

C

So it essentially doesn't apply anywhere else in the in the city or it would be really odd if it did because they had things in there like it has to be an Adaptive reuse of a building over 50 years old how's that for an incentive foreign.

C

So my first suggestion was to revise the senior affordable housing option to make it available all over the city for new construction and for smaller Lots, because not only they require 50 year old existing building, but they also gave the allowable units per acre at only four per acre, which is like Suburban zoning. It doesn't apply for multi-family zoning unless you have a very big parcel which the hospital had a very big parcel.

C

So the second suggestion was to substantially increase the level units to something more like what's equivalent in the GB District or the Eli District, or maybe the um the transitional District.

C

um They also have a minimum 20 dwelling units, there's no reason to have 20 dwelling units. It could be five or ten or something that was the accommodated of a small lot.

C

This is really strange. They they put the parking standards at 1.2 spaces per unit for senior housing anywhere else in this in the city other than the senior housing overlay Zone um you can. You can provide senior, affordable housing or senior housing at all at .66 per unit, so they double the requirement for this overlay. District of what.

D

Did they lower them? No.

C

That's my suggestion: it's 1.2 spaces per units now and that's because the hospital had a big parking lot, so they could afford it. They already had the parking all set up so I also just suggested you could take it from 62 year old, minimum to 55 or 60 something more flexible, I'm.

A

Particularly offended by that one.

A

C

B

55 year olds.

C

Are called active, adult section in.

E

C

Trade, um they have the percentage requirement of of the area, meaning income at 100 percent of median income seems high. The affordable, Workforce housing is 80. You could even go lower to 70 or 60 so that you targeted more low-income housing and then they also not only require you to go through his resulting process to get into the senior housing overlay Zone. But then you have to do a special permit on top of that from the city council before you go to the planning board for site plan.

C

So it's like a three-step process which makes no sense if you're trying to incentivize affordable housing. So all these things seem to ring a bell with the council. I'm, not sure they didn't give me any directive active.

C

Instructions to go after this and Mark it up and make the Zone more flexible, but it seems like a logical thing to do.

A

Just a refresher on what the overlay district is currently. Is it just that particular lot? You mentioned yep, it's.

C

The only one identified in the city is currently zoned for that.

F

C

I, well, that's why it was framed as an overlay District, because theoretically, you can apply anywhere in the city any place with a 50 year old building that was.

G

C

And that had a big parking lot already and you know it just it makes no sense because in essence it's been around since for over 10 years now, and then one parcel Ain has been zoned that way.

H

What is the incentive to.

B

H

Know: senior, affordable housing. If you are a developer, how do you attract that kind of project rather than a you know, a high-end condo development.

C

So there's certain developers, organizations that want to provide senior housing and low-income housing and they can get State money to do it, but they have to have a site with the right zoning. So if we opened up the city to more sites, so what I did next was I well. First of all, I want to show you these are the R1 districts in the city under existing zoning. So you can see something like 85. 90 of the city is zoned for R1 single family.

C

Only the only other option is a accessory apartment, so 80, 90 percent of the city, is off limits. The multi-family housing, which is the way you provide most senior or affordable housing, so allowing this overlay District to be used anywhere in those R1 districts would be a great opportunity if you had the right site, so I looked around and said, hey to see. Well, maybe there's no sites available and everybody says beacons built out that we're sort of at the limit.

C

Well, there's sites available, you know and I haven't, talked to any of the owners of these sites. I just pulled them off the parcel access but, for instance, the Elks parcel everybody knows the Elks parcel at the corner of fearonda and Walcott. That's a big parcel, four acres, almost four acres and about half of it is used. You can see the buildings in the back. The big parking lots in the back so.

B

C

They could put two acres on the market or cooperate with a developer, who wants to do senior, affordable housing and if it was properly zoned under the current zoning, you could only put 16 units on that property. If you had half the lot, but it was zoned at the same development potential as a transitional District, it would be 33 units or if you went to the same development potential that you have in the GB or the LI District, uh you could get 56 units on that property.

C

In theory, we don't know how it would look or done um in theory, there's a there's, a good site within walking distance of Main Street, where you could put affordable housing.

A

Yeah I was going to ask if there's any specific criteria that makes sense for placement of affordable senior housing relative to public transportation.

H

Is walkable to you know grocery store and stuff. It's better right. Yeah.

A

Well, who, at that age, wants to walk anywhere I.

H

Know people who are in their early 70s and are living in apartments on Main Street who walk to the grocery store.

C

Yeah it's affordable housing, they have, the senior housing is large enough has enough units, they usually have a kitchen and they.

G

C

And that sort of thing there's an option, so you can be self-independent. I mean the people at Highland, Meadows and Meadow. Ridge are um pretty isolated, but they seem to be pretty successful because they.

B

C

To seniors who you know in theory, if you have enough units, you can have a shuttle bus on site or.

A

So is the is the underlying purpose to increase the availability of a fort senior, affordable housing I'm, assuming that's what the goal is Right. Ultimately, that's.

C

What it says, the.

A

City's goal is to to do just that: increase availability of senior, affordable.

I

Right, housing.

J

So what what I I was I was reading through the actual requirements in the senior affordable, housing overlay District. What would the actual review look like I mean a change in the age and then eliminating the requirement that they're being reuse of a building- that's at least 50 years old right? Would it basically would there be any requirement for reuse of a building at all, or would it basically.

C

No I would make it as flexible as possible so to attract the most potential interest from private landowners or developers who want to focus on senior housing and, for instance, you know. This last example is down here: are fairly small Lots, so the old club building I, don't remember what was in there it's vacant. Now, it's up behind the um um across from the senior housing across the street, so Arizona R5, now um right, north of 152, as he's on our agenda tonight on Fishkill Avenue. So that's a one point.

H

It was the Masonic temple.

C

H

What it is, yeah I know it's next to the club building next to the temple next to the Hebrew Temple yeah yeah.

C

It's a masonic.

H

It's a masonic lodge so.

C

It's vacant now yeah and there's a nice prominent slot. It's um it's gross from senior housing already, so it wouldn't be the neighborhood. You know, um so you could put either 20 or 34 units up there in theory. If, if you had um the ability to do so under the zoning.

K

Law, I'm I'm a little confused about what what this whole procedure is. I mean. um Are we talking sros going back to doing that? No okay, so these units are then for seniors that can get around and do things so, but.

C

That could be either for active seniors people who want to downsize and and live in an independent living apartment. They can be for assisted living. They could be for senior housing like um where there's.

L

M

C

And and nurse available on site and those sorts of things, the way I think Highland Meadows is probably.

K

Like the Highland middle that that they know what they're doing right, this kind of sounds to me like we don't know what we're doing that. You know we're just um proposing to build these things just because we can propose to build them.

K

um I'm, I'm, thinking like if we want to do affordable housing, maybe it should be mixed. We couldn't have some of it senior citizens and some of it for families, but this whole thing where you don't really need parking.

K

um These smaller units I'm not saying that they can't live in something small like that or you want to live in something small like that. But I, don't I, don't really understand the purpose. Well,.

C

The purpose is to provide senior, affordable housing and if you can change the law by a few tweaks, it's easy to pass. The city is completely control of the zoning law, so they can change the zoning such that instead of one side being available for this use. You know a dozen or more sites around the city could be available for this use and they could Court it.

C

You know they could advertise amongst developers who have that sort of interest that they will cooperate in terms of um you know, State housing grants or whatever else, to try to provide provide this sort of housing which is needed out there. There's.

K

A lot of people who have love to downsize, we need affordable housing, especially in vegan I mean you know. Every time you turn around, there's something luxury whatever going on. There are people that work actually work for a living, not everybody's on a trust fund or you know, has unlimited income, um but I I still think that maybe we should be looking to something where um you have the seniors on the ground level and families above you know, so that it's mixed right.

C

You could break that into the law. It doesn't have to be all.

K

Senior housing, it's yeah, that's the way it's set up for now. Well, I. Think that way, you'd also be able to get more developers interested in.

C

Something why this isn't the only idea I have. If you stick around, um you know we can move on the first. One was about senior housing, because it's already set up in the zoning law, and all we have to do is tweak the the law so that it's available for more options are.

A

They on any kind of timeline for modifying these laws any stated time.

C

No, they said it was their highest priority.

F

um But I don't they're, the state is, is sending.

C

The state is Sunday and that's the other reason it should be. A high priority is because their state and probably Federal money going to be available for.

F

This sort of thing yeah.

B

F

Also men, it's be, it sounds like it's going to be mandated well.

C

That's a touch and go thing with the budget: I don't know if it's going to be mandated, but if it isn't mandated then there's going to be a lot more money for incentives. So either way, there's going to be money for incentives and some action by the state I think.

N

C

Encourage the construction of housing of all sorts to up the housing.

F

Supply, generally so does I I agree. I feel like the integration of like makes more sense and the little that I've been reading about affordable and senior housing. That it seems to be that that seems to be a movement within senior housing is to have intergenerational.

N

F

Options, um so could we just instead of isolating senior housing overlay? Could it just be affordable, housing overlay? It.

C

Could be the council asked me that question and I said yes, there's.

F

C

It's just set up that way. We could do a separate overlay for affordable or you could do just open it up for anything. Let's.

A

Let's hear what else you have and but again the reason I asked about the timeline is because there are often times when this the council asks us for feedback on laws affecting zoning, and you know they're gonna. They want to vote on it like immediately.

A

In a half hour, Workshop I.

O

M

A little pressured.

A

That the planning board- because you know, there's a group of smart people here- who have input- that we want to be able to help guide in a meaningful way. Yeah so um well,.

C

This was supposed to be a preview yeah.

A

So you did get stuck in.

C

That situation.

A

C

Any direction at the at the council meeting to go.

B

C

On this, have it for us in two weeks we're ready to roll if.

H

You if you put this overlay into R1, if you were to put it into all the R1, what kind of you know Building height, you know how many stories, what would be the the maximum? You know if you're saying, okay, let's, let's um allow more than four units per acre. Let's allow this overlay to be put anywhere in the R1. What would be the limitation.

C

Current zoning law- you, the overlay and the bulk Rags- are the same, except for the development potential per acre are the same, so you'd have the same setbacks required under that District. The same height standard, so it'd be 35 feet two and a half stories. uh Now you could change that for the affordable housing. You could go to three full stories.

J

Or and I don't know 40 feet. Everything really just occurs on the density limit, because the density limit is not particularly High. Basically just opened up multi-family development, all over the R1 districts, which somehow.

L

I feel that wouldn't be very popular yeah.

J

Well, that's the reason.

L

J

Really going against the.

H

J

The comprehensive.

C

H

C

Don't think so the reason the Zone already exists, it's not existing, you know it's and the council still before they could implement this. They could change the law, make it more attractive and then anybody who came in they would have to make the case and the neighbors would have the right to come to the public.

H

Area next door or whatever the reason why the.

C

Senior housing is more attractive because seniors are looked at as being less impactful on the neighborhood.

A

H

Multi-Family I think it requires a little bit of thought only because and I'm asking the question based on a bunch of stuff I've read about attempts to get multi-family housing built in California in places where there's a massive demand for housing and the neighbors flip out and lose their minds over anything that looks like multi-family, housing and so I.

H

I guess I'm concerned that if, if it's, if the restrictions are too relaxed- and someone comes in and says oh I'd love to do this and I, you know how many units can I put in how many stories could I go full three stories that you'll then you'll get projects killed by the neighbors who are like no way. This is like completely.

C

I showed are in a neighbor where they would blend in they wouldn't.

N

C

Out of character, they're, not in the middle of a of you, know a street with all single-family houses on them, they're on Main, Corners, they're, on surrounded by Rd districts, um they're already having assisted housing facility on the property, and they could just expand those sorts.

A

Of places just to be clear, it wouldn't necessarily be opening up R1 to all of this. It's it's. It would be to focus on specific Parcels.

C

But the counselors will.

A

C

No, if they thought that they context was not conducive to it,.

A

J

Basically, the way this is written now, if you open up the requirements we were talking about, you eliminate that reuse requirement um and.

A

C

The only real limiting.

J

Factor here is the density restriction now.

C

The limiting factor is before um a developer can get going on a project, even if they meet all the criteria in the zone. The council has to say yes, but we will be willing to rezone that property, because there isn't a Revolt in the neighborhood and there it is in the in a good context. It's a good situation where it won't be out of character or whatever. So.

J

They still have.

C

Ultimate control to say.

J

No, yes, and no, because the reality is it's like with a special use permit, saying, launch you've got the legislation on the book. The City cannot simply categorically refuse to Grant the permits for.

C

An overlay Zone, they can categorically Grant to say no, there's no reason, there's no obligation to rezone a property under the lawn, so they can say absolutely no. This is the wrong spot um look over here, but.

B

C

Wrong street, so they absolutely can say no to any rezoning.

B

Some of the other suggestions eliminate.

C

Parking requirements for designated affordable units, so you have a 10 set aside for those units, require no parking. So it's an incentive to provide those and to provide enough housing that you qualify for an affordable housing designated unit, also lower multi-family parking requirements city-wide uh their leftovers from like the 1970s.

C

You know really big cars and- and you know there was 3.6 people living in every single family house. um Now the the persons per household has gone down 25, but our parking rigs are still the same. Why is it that we have a mandatory parking requirement for every use in the city, but we don't have mandatory anything else. You know I mean you have to have a bathroom, you have to have a kitchen and you have to have a parking space or two parking spaces to get a house housing unit. It's it's.

C

um We live in a city where people can walk, they don't necessarily need a car, um so many cities across something like 200 cities across the country have eliminated parking altogether requirements.

C

They allow the people who build it to come into the planning board and say this is what we think we need and if the planning board says it made sense, it makes sense because most of these marking standards are arbitrary, anywhere they're left over from either Suburban ite numbers I studies that primarily look at Suburban examples in places without Transit without walkability.

C

So um when you look at the cost of a housing unit, something like 17 percent of a rental unit is the cost for the parking so they're all over the country, primarily in the South. It's funny that it's in Houston and Charlotte in places where you wouldn't think it they're allowing Housing Development to happen without parking spaces and the people self-select.

C

If I'm going to rent a place in this I'm, not going to get a parking space designated to me for free, and so they attract people who have bicycles or are willing to use Uber or the only one to use the bus or whatever.

C

um Now, maybe speaking, isn't ready for that. But you could at least lower the parking standards so that it's a minimum, rather than looked at as a maximum.

C

um Just like I identified a few Parcels where you could put multi-family housing for seniors. The city could identify places where they want to do Rd, residential developments that allow multi-family. So you start breaking up that 90 percent Stranglehold on available land for more than single-family houses.

C

um You can make multi-family dwelling in a permitted use in the Rd District right now. Even if you get the rezoning party again, you have to go through a special parameter process which opens you up to them getting a lot of complaints and therefore saying no. So people put out a lot of money for applications and concept plans and then the special permit allows them, even if they rezoned it to say no to the special permit.

C

um You could allow two family dwellings in the R1 District, that's sort of minimalist, there's very little impact of a two-family dwelling over a one family dwelling.

C

um So right now you have to have a special permit and a site plan proven, whereas a single family home, unless it's in the historic district, you don't have to have anything more than a building permit.

A

For instances like that, I mean I can understand on a larger scale development where you don't have owner proximate or owner occupied. That makes sense um for for instances like this, where you have this mix Within resin, you know dense residential, like a two family. What would be the city's requirement on maintenance, repair, safety.

C

The same as any other uh multi-family or even single family.

A

So it just needs to be enforced. Yeah I'm, just curious, I'm just concerned about the specific types of developers who meet the minimum basis.

C

There's developers out there who build single family homes and they don't have any requirements to do those sorts of things. Extra standards.

P

C

Don't go to the planning board and I need a special permit. Yeah.

A

I'm not I'm not saying that I'm just I'm just I'm just talking about upkeep maintenance.

C

Well, there's maintenance laws in the city right now.

B

C

Don't maintain your property single family or otherwise they can. The city can notify you that you're not maintaining your property, I'm.

A

I'm, more thinking about the occupants of a rental, for you know with a landlord like that right and the impact of the community. It's more, you know types of landlords who don't care right.

C

Well, there's people own property or don't care either, and you have to I think we have to get away from thinking that all renters are bad. No.

A

No I'm not talking about the renters, you.

C

Have to you have to think.

A

About the welfare of the housing.

C

In the city, uh you can't have ninety percent of it locked up in single family homes, no.

A

I get that my concern more is about the welfare of the renters, meaning the safety, the conditions, requirements for owners and landlords to look after them.

C

Protections law both at the state law.

A

So it's enforcement yeah.

C

Let me get. We only have a few minutes left. Let me just throw out a couple other options: uh the cities, uh Main Street access committee provided a dozen a dozen half a dozen places where you could put affordable housing on parking lots in the city, city-owned Lots, where they could just the way they did on West End Lofts, um sponsor an affordable housing project on public land, and so there's an incentive to actually do it in cooperation with the city.

C

But the city is overwhelmed with capital projects right now, so they said, we'd love to do these things, but we just don't have the Staffing power to do them. So I suggested two places where you could have affordable housing projects, targeted sites for affordable housing or housing in general, um where the city wouldn't be the main player, because it's not on city property, it's on other public properties, so, for instance, the County Center law.

C

We talked about I think this. Before it's big Corner parking lot, that's only half used even on peak days, um a real Gap in this Main Street streetscape. So what was suggested in both 2007 and 2017? Comprehensive plan has put a building on the corner frame, a green space on Main Street next to Civic use and then consolidate the parking to the rear, and you can actually put more parking on the back two-thirds of the space if you do it efficiently. So here we have 92 spaces throughout the property and 114 spaces.

C

Just on the rear portions of the property so I, um the County Administration was interested in micro Apartments because those are inherently affordable. Those are proper and under 300 square feet, real minimal studio type Apartments.

C

um On that corner parcel you could put 40 of those in a three-story building and frame that Park and the developer were responsible for making the park as well as the as the building and reconfiguring the parking lot.

C

um The green could be designed for the farmers market as an intro entrance. You know with tables on both sides as you enter and then filter back into the parking lot, where the more truck oriented tables are I could have a bus stop out front, so it starts working with the bus system, so this would be on County property in I. Think I could talk the County Planning Department into running the show and getting County trust fund money to help it help it.

A

Go it's probably about the fourth iteration of that lot. I've seen you plan out over the years yeah! Well, that's.

C

Still a good idea yeah since 2007.

A

Well, we've been we've been going at it for a while right.

C

Well, this time I think the incentive is out there, both from the city and the county. The county just set up a Housing Trust Fund to fund properties just like this, and this is their own property. It's sort of a no-brainer to. Why would you give money for other part personals when you own one and can subsidize.

A

C

In that way, what.

A

Was the city's response to this one.

C

B

As always, it looks like a good idea.

C

um The other main parcel.

C

North parking lot at Metro, North Metro North, was interested in doing a housing project there years ago. They were in the zoning, wasn't in place so in after the 2007 comprehensive plan, which looked at this properties, in particular uh the city rezoned, that for Waterfront development, put in a whole design standard for what this parcel would look like with a building on it.

C

That's built in a deck over the parking lot it's built into that Hillside, so it would have no view impacts from from areas, and you could put a number of housing within walking distance of the riverfront parks and the train station and Metro North, that's on their property. So they would, in theory, run that process, not the city, but they would do it in cooperation with the city.

C

F

C

F

Him to upgrade their station at the same time. That would be.

C

Nice so I think we're over time, but those are some of the ideas that were out there.

A

um Okay, well thanks John, um certainly a lot to think about it's. Do you think this is something we're going to be asked to come back to over the next couple of months? Well,.

C

Certainly the senior affordable housing overlay District seems to me like a no-brainer, but um we'll see.

A

Okay, yeah because I we haven't really formalized any kind of response here tonight. So no.

C

Well, they're not proposing anything yeah yeah, so they haven't even authorized me. Even though I have a red line version of the uh the overlay District they haven't asked me to do it. Okay,.

F

Can we continue this next month.

A

Yeah, that's what I was thinking if, what's.

C

A

We were thinking we'd continue this next month, perhaps okay yeah great well, thanks welcome Judd sitting.

Q

In for Jennifer.

A

Keenan Bean, our City attorney, appreciate it. Thank you. John Clark, our city, planner, John, Russo, our city engineer and are.

A

Group here welcomes you to the eight. What is this April feels like mayor right? It's April, April meeting of the city of Beacon uh planning board. uh First item of business. Any comments, no, no any comments on last month's meeting notes uh before we enter them into the record.

A

So you have um Amanda, you have okay, great, so they're updated and ready to be yeah. Okay. So with that, then I'll accept a motion to accept last month's meeting notes.

H

Motion to accept the meeting notes motion.

A

By line second by Karen, all in favor great, thank you, uh then that brings us to our first agenda item. um In fact, agenda item number one, uh which was the 1113 Wolcott Avenue, has been held over until next month at the risk request of the applicant. So anybody here tonight for that application that's being postponed.

A

So that brings us to we're in public hearing on an application for a subject. Excuse me a subdivision three lot: residential at 44, Ken, Street and sorry that did um did Jennifer. Give you a kind of a primer on how we've been introducing gen typically introduces our agenda items. If.

P

You're not no yeah, no, no problem.

A

P

We, the public hearing, has got to open on this particular application.

J

Yeah I was about to say we still need to.

P

Vote the first step tonight and then and then open the publication.

A

Exactly yep so so we'll get to that. But before then is there anything you wanted to share prior to our.

G

um We just uh for the record Mike bodendorf, Hudson, Lane design, engineer for the applicant. um We revised the plans uh for the latest comment, letters from the consultants and I don't think, there's any more comments other than some housekeeping items uh with regard to the easements.

A

Right, okay and then again for the board um judge mentioned: we have a draft. We authorize drafts nag deck on secret last month. So that's in front of us to act on. We would do that before we move to open the public.

M

A

So, as far as the secret neck deck any thoughts comments, questions or otherwise, a motion to adopt.

J

Make a motion to adopt a negative declaration, negative secret declaration.

A

Motion second, second, all in favor, aye, aye great and then we'll move to uh open the public hearing on the.

A

um Subdivision.

R

A

H

A

H

Seconded second,.

A

By land, all in favor all.

N

A

And so, as far as public comment, we have received um some written uh just now: I'm not going to read them, but they uh have I'm not going to read them aloud. Here they have been uh uh made a part of the record. uh We have reviewed them so um for those of you who have submitted in writing. Your comments have been reflected in the public record and then uh to that end we will go to the public for any anyone here who has comments they'd like to share. Thank you.

M

Teresa craft, I'm opposed to this proposed subdivision on Kent Street, and the request for this zoning variance. This planned subdivision of a single home parcel into multiple lots to build out. Three houses is detrimental to the existing neighborhood and the surrounding area and the quality of life in Beacon impacted on our, and it will impact our Municipal resources. This city is continuing to open up Pandora's Box that will forever change the landscape of Beacon just because they can change Parcels by subdividing them does not mean you should grant them the right to do so.

M

I urge you to please vote no to granting this subdivision. I also suggest that you all watch the city of Beacon Workshop meeting mentioned tonight and listen intently and watch the scripted hand signals there were many I sat there firsthand the senior affordable housing is a plan to build 300 square foot micro Apartments the size of a pop-up camper that literally wipes out the zoning work accomplished with a single vote. It's all smoke and mirrors, and a potential crisis for the rest of our resources to say.

M

Neighbors can come up here before this board and put a kibosh on any projected project are almost non-existent. Can you name me one on a handful or a handful? Thank you.

A

Sorry refresh my memory uh John, this just didn't this 44 Kent doesn't come with a variance. Doesn't it no? uh Thank you. I didn't think so. Thank you. Anyone else.

S

Good evening uh Mr, chairman and council members, my name is Paul Hardesty I'm, one of the principals of Hardy homes. Thank you for considering our requests and giving me an opportunity to speak. This evening. We are requesting a simple subdivision for three small homes where a dilapidated two-family home currently exists.

S

Our understanding is, there may be some concern over noise and safety. In my opinion, it is a stretch to thank increasing by one family from a two family to three small homes on Kent, Street, compromises, noise and safety. Our plan includes planting of trees and shrubs.

S

Our family has been serving Beacon, The Beacon Community for almost 100 years and has contributed to making Beacon a desirable City that currently exists. This project is an example of continuing our continuing efforts to support the community. Thank you.

A

I

A

Actually, I sort of went off my own sort of order, just as far as your review and any any additional comments you still have outstanding for the applicant.

C

No they've addressed all my comments.

A

Thanks and Mr Russo.

D

uh We're just waiting for them to submit maintenance and easement agreements.

D

H

Else has been addressed: okay, so yep.

I

H

Question parcel that had um I'm sorry. This.

I

M

H

Parcel that had uh Asylum Brooke coverted on it did that ever so. Is that part of the easement and maintenance agreements.

D

That have been there one of these, but they gave us 25 foot wide easement along the entire Lane.

H

Any concerns about management of that so.

D

No because it's actually a five foot diameter pipe that runs through that easement. So if it was a need to replace that in the future, 25 feet is more than sufficient to install a new line and.

A

It looks like within that 25 feet, they're, not planning any there's.

D

No structure, no structure.

G

Structure other than.

A

Paved area right right here, thank you.

G

And if I may, Mr, chairman I just want to address- and you might have brought this up one of the written comment- letters from the public and I think was spoken here. Tonight is um the word zoning variants um we're not going for any zoning variances for this site. It's fully zoning compliant in the R15 zoning District yeah.

A

Again, I sometimes ask questions that I know the answer to just to confirm, but that's the second time I've heard the word variants used in relation to this this application. So it has me a little confused. Why folks would think variance is applicable? It's not in this instance right. You didn't. The applicant did not seek a variance with the zoning board.

A

Clear thanks did you have something John I.

C

Was just going to remind everybody that um consistent with our previous discussion, this is a two-family Zone which is not allowed in the R1 District, except by grandfathering. So this is sort of a non-conforming use that they're trying to create conforming Lots out of.

A

So you're saying the existing is non-conforming. Is this existing an uncle.

C

C

Districts but somewhere along the line, they were cut out. Yeah.

N

C

So you have these sort of Legacy, multi-family and single family and two family mixed together, and you know the idea of affordable housing is to try to remix the way it was historically.

C

um Even though, in the last 40 years, they've tried to make it exclusively single family.

A

So if I'm reading it correctly right now as it exists, the parcel is existing non-conforming. The application is bringing it up to current zoning right. That's clear: okay,.

J

And unless I'm missing something, this is 150 foot wide lot over 100 feet deep. So in an R15 Zone, the basic proposition they're making cut this in the 350 foot wide Lots is an off-right proposition. Yeah.

A

Right, yeah exactly and.

J

A

Pretty standard lot size 50 by 150., see this all over the place. Yep any other questions comments um around the board.

A

Anyone else from the public.

T

My name is Harold Holtz 57, Kent Street not opposed, but my concern is the drainage. We currently have flooding issues now on there. You have three catch basins in the backyard. Excuse me two in the rear yards and then you have the existing sewage training.

T

um Are they going to add anything.

A

We'll collect questions and if the applicant is prepared and would like to respond, then we'll we'll do so in in turn.

T

Yeah I mean some of our. Some of my questions are how's this going to affect us on what are the outages going to be? What are the? What are the? What are the timelines on the outages, those type of things and I'm sure my neighbors feel this kind of more okay.

A

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

A

A

So applicant heard some questions from the public. Would you like to address sure main question being drainage.

G

Yes, we are proposing some on-site drainage that will tie into the closed cities drainage network if I can point to them on the screen. Here we have a small catch, Basin up in the front of the houses and another one in the rear, and we are grading it such that there's a split amongst the Lots from front to back, so some of the drainage will go towards the front.

G

Some will go towards the back and be collected by the drainage system in either case they'll, be collected by the drainage system and conveyed to the city's drainage system.

G

A

Sorry we we don't. We don't sort of organize this. As an exchange appreciate, you have questions, um you're, welcome to ask the applicant. You know your leisure, but.

G

We did study the drainage um area that contributes to that and sized our jointed system accordingly. What's coming to it, based on the topography and drainage patterns in the area and.

A

Our city Engineers reviewed this any any thoughts.

D

Or comments that is to get the drainage into the system prior to the main drainage coming down through the main Asylum Brook to more or less beat the peak as far as the water coming through, that system beat.

A

D

Well, so, basically, if you try to detain and slow drainage going into a system- and you have other drainage collection systems as they hit a peak coming down through the lines your Peak starts, centering in exacerbates the problem uh state DOT also does it they look at areas, one being 397. We looked at getting the storm drainage into the system and conveyed through that area prior to the main Peak coming in right.

A

That makes sense just in terms of kind of look at it as like traffic, you beat the brush right right, so it's the systems here locally are designed to get out before the larger volume comes.

D

In right, instead of just letting it drain off drain down into the road, the driveways.

A

D

The neighbors, the intent, is to collect it and get it out of here.

I

D

Okay, thanks you're welcome.

G

A

F

Yeah, of course, is there an existing drainage issue in this in the streets with the city there.

D

Has been flooding in those areas in the past.

F

Is there anything that we that the city can do for that.

D

The city has looked at that in different locations. Part of it is further down in the city that the city system backs up and then creates a backup all the way through.

L

hmm Okay, doesn't sound good.

G

We're also planting 25 trees, I think we're taking out two, so the roots of those trees will help absorb groundwater as well. Over time.

C

G

I think it's five Dogwood, seven fujas 17 fujas I believe sorry, not 25, 22 22.

A

She can't get you can't get anything I.

G

Know I and I wouldn't try.

D

Not on trees, not.

A

Definitely not on trees. uh Did you have a question David or comment.

J

I, don't I just the the drainage issue, it kind of seems like the only issue. I've heard, that's pause for a concern. Yeah.

A

Although it sounds like it,.

J

Is this kind of in any way exactly exacerbate that issue?.

D

No because the intent is to get the storm order into the system and through the system prior to the other Peaks coming into that system,.

F

So it's not going to make the existing um drainage problems in the street. Of course, no.

P

J

Yeah so shouldn't we go ahead, yeah no shouldn't! We be adjourning this and no so.

A

So the way at least the way I see it, and how many is that the city may or may not, and in this instance sound like sounds like it does have for lack of a better word less than well-performing systems outside the locality of.

D

It's during significant.

A

D

That the systems back up- and this happens throughout the city in different areas- this is not every storm event that this occurs.

A

So yeah and the point to this conversation is and specifically around this application is, is: is the application in any way, shape or form it never should adding to or making worse an existing situation?

A

um We understand, through the engineering and through our City's review of the engineering, that it is not it's it's acting to better the drainage system locally right here to mitigate.

D

It and no single.

A

Application alone can help solve more Citywide problems. So not a not a, not a not at the level to rise to stop an application and review to fix the entire City's problems.

J

I I think when I said I think shouldn't we adjourn this I meant shouldn't. We adjourn the public hearing to the next meeting and then hopefully, they've got the easements.

A

J

Think yeah, as far as the easements.

D

Though the easements are the.

J

Condition of approval, yeah or.

A

Yeah, the easements are different.

P

Yeah and and two points, one keep in mind that part of the neg deck that the board just adopted and that part three addresses uh impacts on groundwater right and surface water and part of your determination that there is no significant impact. Is the fact that those drainage concerns will be addressed or mitigated to the to the fullest extent practical right um and with regard to the easement agreements. Easy for me to say, because I'm here for Jenny tonight, but those the type of agreements that we're talking about I hate to say, Garden variety. But.

U

P

Talking about a maintenance and access agreement for a city, a city line and for drainage improvements, this is fairly routine.

A

P

I'm not I'm not concerned about those in terms of right, the complexity, you know, protracting the board's review or action on this application.

A

Right so process-wise our approvals contingent upon and correct it's it's listed in our um our approval that those conditions must be met, the easement being one of them and won't be signed off by some guy called the planning board chair until they are met. So we have a mechanism for ensuring that those conditions are are met. Okay, let.

F

Me ask one more question:.

A

Oh all, right, of course, the.

F

Area drains that they're proposing to put in is that improving the situation. The current situation.

D

It's not improving the situation in the road, but it is ensuring that the drainage coming off those lots is going to get into the system and not exacerbate it. Worse. Okay,.

F

So currently the the lot as it stands now the water drains into the street into.

D

The street, not to some of the neighbors okay in the intent, was to let's not send the water onto the neighbors, let's collect as much of it as we can get it away from the neighbors. So.

A

To some degree, whatever exactly whatever the lot in its existing state is contributing to that problem, it will stop contributing to that problem.

D

It'll minimize it there'll still be some coming out, but got it they're greatly capturing a significant amount of it.

A

All right anyone else, we still have open public hearing anyone else.

A

Okay, um discussion around potentially closing the public hearing.

F

It was reasonable.

A

Accept emotion, motion by Kevin: you got there first, second, second, by Karen, all in favor.

B

A

You and then, let's see what else can we do? We can authorize uh our city attorney's office to authorize draft adoption, so we'll do that. I'll accept a motion motion motion by Karen seconded second by land, all in favor.

G

A

Else we can do for you, I.

G

Think, that's it great. Thank you very much. Thank.

A

You with that, we will move to our next agenda item with dispatch, which is uh our continued review of an application for site plan, approval and subdivision a lot merger, mixed-use commercial residential I'm not going to read all these addresses, addresses I'd call it Route 52, but you can. You can give us a little bit more.

E

Of it, members of the planning board for the record, my name is Taylor Palmer I'm, a partner with the law, firm of cutting fader Honda. uh Thank you Amanda for turning the heat up in here.

E

It is nice and toasty tonight um tonight, I am joined by our home, see the gentleman over here with their sleeves rolled up I'm quite jealous uh tonight, I'm joined by the project architect, Arya Siegel, as well as the uh engineer Mike bowdorf of Hudson Land, Design uh and uh Richard DeAndre of Collier's engineering is our trapping soul, but not with us tonight. Our Landscape designer is Deborah Adamson.

E

As the chairman mentioned, uh we are before your board.

E

I just was making sure I was doing the right application, yummy sideways there for a second on the Route 52 question. I had a really really good, it's like kind of saying, Walcott in 90..

E

um As the team mentioned, we are before you in connection with uh our review continued view of site plan and subdivision, which is the lot merger uh approval uh for the applicants proposal to redevelop the three premises. Let's leave it that way as the three-story mixed use: commercial, uh multi-family, residential development at 397, 393, official Avenue and 7 Conklin Street, uh we've reviewed your draft resolution and we did forward some comments again. A very insignificant changes uh to the approval resolution, one mostly just focused on the square footage of the building itself.

E

As the borders aware. At the last meeting last month's meeting, you did uh adopt a Seeker determination and there was also uh the opening and closing of the site plan, the subdivision public hearings based on our discussions with an abutting property owner. After the meeting who made a comment uh during the hearing, we did update the Landscaping plan to include additional additional plantings along the northern property line, which is the property line with the neighbor that spoke. We also made adjustments to ensure protection of an existing dogwood tree, which was on the abunding property.

E

At the request of the neighbor.

E

We'd also note- and we included this in our submission- specifically Deborah adamson's, our Landscape designer made reference to the fact that wrapping the Evergreens and burlaps actually affects the utilization of the trees in the area for birds to use for food and cover, and it's also a little bit unsightly. So the applicant would utilize organic non-toxic deer deterrent because we talked about the types of plantings and the concern that they wouldn't sustain, or or so we would that's our proposal. There is to avoid using those those wraps for the trees.

E

It also provides visibility of the Evergreens throughout the year, which is, of course, the point of that screening. um So again, we're pleased to be back before you. I will turn it over to Rea, uh just briefly to walk through some additional revisions, namely to the landscaped area and certainly any questions you may have.

A

Thank you. I will note, there is no law that says you have to keep your jacket.

A

H

B

L

You can't wrestle himself out of it.

A

Evening, good.

U

Evening so um yeah, as Taylor mentioned, the really really the only updates to the drawing where we clarified how the that fence Works along that Northern property line in relation to the retaining wall, and then there's some additional plantings up there to provide screening.

U

But that was pretty much the extent of the changes for this time.

A

Okay, um our Consultants Mr Clark, any.

C

Addressed all my previous comments: I'm good yep, great wow,.

A

Who for two well done I.

E

Should take my jacket off more often, oh, that wasn't it.

A

Okay, so we do have, as um we directed last month, a draft resolution to adopt uh I understand. You have had some back and forth putting topping tails on it. um Cities satisfied with this draft at the moment, yep so board any questions uh or other comments on reading of this. Otherwise I'll accept a motion to adopt.

J

A

Motion by David.

J

F

A

Karen, all in favor aye aye aye do we have all eyes recorded okay. Thank you very much great. Thank you.

A

We'll now move to 536 main, which is uh a continued review of an application for site plan approval, three-story, retail commercial 536, Main Street, submitted by hrsm LLC good.

E

Evening again, Mr chairman members of the board for the record Taylor Palmer, with the law firm of Cuddy and defater I'm, also joined by our project, architect, Arya Siegel and the project engineer Mike odenor from Hudson Land Design. As the chairman mentioned, we are before you for the continued review of our site for site plan proposing to improve the vacant lot for a three-story commercial development. Loka did 536 Main Street.

E

The proposed building will host a retail showroom for warp and weft a custom design, rug, curation business following the last appearance at our playing board meeting on March 28th, the accent submitted a revised renderings, reflecting the revisions made in response to comments from the ARB subcommittee, and then uh that was at the ARB subcommittee's March 3rd meeting you're going to see some pictures.

E

So that's probably what John's I was just looking at that you haven't seen yet we only had a limited time to turn around some of the changes because, of course, we met only two weeks ago. So we tried to get as much together as we could and I'll. Let ra really walk through those. Just a minute are able, please also review the Landscaping plan, which proposes to improve the rear of the property with the landscape, art Garden and we're also adding a John Clark Street tree along Main Street.

E

The landscape design works the balance, the functional needs of the site and the surrounding area, and it also complies with the landscaped area requirements in the CMS District.

E

We did update our traffic study to consider the additional demand for the development under construction at 416 Main Street, and we did of course note that there was adequate parking. In our last meeting. We had an extensive discussion with the board about its unanimous support for the parking waiver, so with that I'll turn it over to Mr Siegel to go through those changes again, some that you haven't seen but, of course, we'll be putting those forth before the board in our next submission.

E

U

Good evening so um yeah, you know we submitted revised drawings. Based on the comments we had last time. The the main thing was the um edition of the landscape plan. So there's an area in the back of the property um that that's sort of a garden that would be accessed through the first floor retail space and then there's a retaining wall back there because of the grade change and then we're Landscaping above and below the retaining wall, but on on our property.

U

So there'd be a couple different levels of landscaping, um we're also proposing to landscape along that easement path on on both sides of a paved path and- and then you know, some of that would have to be in cooperation with the neighbor. But we've um started talking to them. So we think we'll be able to work that out.

U

The the um total amount of Landscaping on the site is 14 just of the green area. Now that, because of the changes that we made and the addition of the Landscaping along the Eastman area, so we more than comply with the 10 requirement.

U

um Oh yeah and then there's the uh the street tree, which John noted we need to talk to the the committee on that. The tree advisory committee.

A

Yeah, so you have yet to do that right, yeah.

U

Okay, yeah we'll take care of that.

Q

U

um So so the yeah we we showed and submitted some updated renderings, but there's new ones that you haven't seen yet, which will become part of the discussion and the next submission.

A

um So so hold on. Let me just sort of backtrack and understand you. You have spent time with aarb, yeah, right and so you're saying here tonight that since then you still have new material that you like to share with the board right and you'll do so next month. Well,.

U

I mean I, have it here, but we'll formally submit it next month. Yeah.

A

Okay, so if you want a quick snapshot, maybe quick I don't want to get into an in-depth if you're going to have it back next month, okay and fully completed right.

U

Yeah and- and we did sort of want to get your opinion on how you wanted to move forward with the um the you know that design reviews, if you're going to do it as the full board or.

A

Yeah, that's that's what I was thinking if um and of course it's not just up to me, but let's, let's talk around the board on Architectural Review. um It would be good to move that forward. It would be good to use next month's meeting for a comprehensive final review right, okay, um as opposed to convening the architectural subcommittee again, so, if you're prepared for that next month and that works for your timeline, then that's what we'll do um any objections around the board to that information.

H

My only objection is that we're kind of like making it this I'm sorry. My only my only comment is that we're you're kind of making a preemptive decision we haven't even seen the well.

A

Well, you're going to be submitting it before next month.

B

A

Have the opportunity to review it by next month's meeting, and then we took as a group then give feedback at next month's meeting and if we're not yet satisfied, have them come back. Okay,.

B

The following month's meeting I'm.

E

Not I'm, educating.

A

Rushing we're approving anything until we're ready.

E

And the next application may ask that the board consider referring it to the ARB subcommittee, so there might be an opportunity to double dip if the board sees fit yeah.

A

E

That we're gonna ask hopefully, if, if the boards use fit setting a ARB subcommitting for the 152 158 fiscal Avenue project, when we get there, it might be an opportunity for this project to be there.

A

As well so that's fine understood.

U

The pretty pictures from there right um so that the the applicant is proposing some additional changes to what.

C

U

Had last month, we've reduced the width of the peers on the side and then sort of, like you were saying, John brought them around and and made that part of the cornice. We increased the depth of the cornice a little bit and he the the cornice, is flush with the brick face. In this version you get a couple different views of that.

U

um The the reduction of the width of those Piers makes the break a little bit more than 35 feet.

U

um You know, I, don't know if you consider this, um maybe what's the terminology major besides building or something yeah, so I don't know if the fact that it's a couple feet more than the 35 when I mean I, think the proportions of the skin here appears work better than what we had before, but um we just wanted to bring that to your attention. So we're not skipping that step, but um you know so, basically, after reviewing it with the applicant. This is what he is proposing.

C

Yeah, it says larger buildings, so that's questionable. First of all, is this a larger building.

B

C

Incorporates significant breaks in the facade and roof lines and intervals.

U

Yeah we started with a completely flat plane.

B

U

You remember that first one and then and then we broke broke it down, but um you know we just wanted to bring that to your attention. Is that and.

E

Byron, just of course, by mathematical production of the width of those uh those pillars we've now created. If if this is considered a larger building, which of course is not defined in the code, it would create this Delta um with two feet below the 35 requirement, because we've Shrunk the size of the the columns where they were zoning again our perspective is it's not a large building, so it wouldn't this.

E

This necessary break, wouldn't sort of meet the purposes we're trying to reduce we're trying to make the building more in line with what the board sees as far as being in line with the CMS District of buildings on Main Street, but this code provision, if considered a large building you know I, would consider a four-story building, for example, to be a large building. That's just again a Taylor interpreter tailor. Reading.

A

I don't know here's the way, I look at it. Large small scaling proportion rate rule right so to some degree, I mean what the moves you've made here. Just in terms of balance and proportion look better. The only the only still observation I'd make, though you brought that articulation across the top in relationship to the two vertical articulations.

A

It's a little. It's a little thin right.

A

um You know, I see where you're kind of abstracting, cornice and I have no specific objections to that approach.

A

um I mean it's not it's not of the John Clark ilk, but I, don't I, don't mind it. I, like it I like a little bit of a change up in this idea of kind of taking a little bit of a spin on historic, with a modern twist. The proportion of that, though, still just in relationship to you, know if you're gonna, if you're gonna play with in abstract an element that has a you know a particular proportion in relationship to the rest of the building by you know abstracting the cornice.

A

If you will, the scale should also make sense, and my my sense is that the feel the scale of that articulation, that cornice on top is still a little dinky.

U

Yeah, we understand we'll bring that back to the applicant.

A

Yeah so, but as far as the overall approach as one board member, you know I'm I'm in support of it with those with those refinements that you do something to help balance this. The depth of the brick articulation at the top and then also in relationship to the size of that cornice element as abstracted I, don't mind that abstraction, just better, better scale, relationship to the rest of it. Okay, I think it would add to like just you know, kind of almost elegant balance right.

F

I agree: I, think that, like the two skinny elements at the top just kind of accentuate each other's skinniness, yeah well said.

H

Will you have like a little? Are you gonna end up with a little ledge across above the entrance way, because of the way the at least the way it's shown in the rendering the um the entrance? You know the moldings around the entrance are coming right out to the edge of the the face of the facade.

U

um Yeah I mean you mean the first floor entrance. There.

M

Yeah yeah that.

U

Set back in pretty deeply and it's been, um and there is that little lip of of the uh you know the frame. That's like the window frames.

A

So it's almost like a metal insert yeah.

U

A

Still proud of the brick right.

U

Certain depth, yeah and then and that that that's the same detail as um on the Windows.

H

Yeah, okay, so it's about the same in the.

U

uh Yeah yeah is that what you meant when.

H

Yeah at the very top of it, there's going to be essentially a bit of a lip projecting right from the from.

O

H

From the facade where the windows are yeah and it'll, be it'll, be like a similar depth to the window, uh the framing or moldings around the windows, and then is there any thought about.

H

You know how the the brick detail on the on those plasters or columns is, is kind of right. Now, it's it's swallowed up by the by the entrance. The way the entrance is finished.

H

It's not a it's hard to describe it like so were those on either side of the building where those simulated columns or plasters are. um On the first floor, there's no brick revealed inside the.

A

Are you talking about the return where.

H

Yeah, where it turns metal, that's right from there down yeah you.

A

Know, I I'm actually I, like the Elegance, there's an Elegance to it right that that wide opening is this. This nice, you know sort of metal, insert gesture yeah.

H

I'm, just I was just asking whether you know revealing the brick at the same projection of the column would would kind of like let that element finish itself down to the ground or not. It's.

A

A it's implied that the bricks behind it.

D

It's right along the face and you can see.

A

It follows through I, don't know if you're asking, if you're asking me or sort of putting.

T

That up I'm just putting it.

H

Out there you can respond to.

A

It yeah I, don't think it's necessary. You know again, the brick is sort of implied as being behind it, which it's probably not, but um I, don't I. Don't personally feel it's necessary.

A

So this was my point you're getting sort of some Architectural Review here right, you're, almost there. In my view, if you come back having you know, tweak those little tweaks, I, don't I'm, not personally sure it makes sense to go to the full ARB again.

A

You know that's.

H

That's my point: unless.

A

You have you had some sense that you should go to the airb I, don't know no.

U

We're just wondering uh you know because last month, um quite late and we we kind of Breeze through this I, just didn't know where you were with that you know, but if, if you did want to send it to ARB, you know, that's one way to do it. If you want to stay with the full board, we're.

A

Fine I appreciate that yeah yeah I, don't know to in board. Please weigh.

H

In yeah you're being put on whether you would like to see it go back to full ARB or not, or do you think we're.

L

Close enough to I think it is close, I think it might one of the things about the ARB. That's beneficial. Is that there's an opportunity to have a back and forth dialogue without um uh in a in a smaller setting right where you don't have to. You can speak more frankly, because it's not a public hearing.

L

Everything's done publicly, you know, and and the approval is done in the public hearing, of course, which is good, so I think I find it beneficial myself to have that experience. I enjoy it. Also I like talking to you about these things. I feel like it does, have an impact and it improves the quality of the buildings. You've been doing on Main Street.

L

So if you can I I think that if you had two applications that came at the same time, it might be an efficient use of time. But that's my.

A

It's up to you guys it's another meeting. Well,.

U

I mean you know, I think we want to you.

B

U

It whatever's the most expedient, so we can get to the next phase of the review. It.

A

Sounds to me like if there is an araby set and you're ready for it or spend the time, get the benefit that Kevin just described. So then, at that point by the time you're back here, we don't have to spend any.

U

Additional time talking about it, that'd be fine, okay, thoughts, Karen.

F

Yeah, it makes sense if you, you know, I think you could get more resolved next month at the full meeting. If you tweak it.

U

A little I mean, of course, that.

B

U

Depends on who's getting appointed to the.

A

We'll talk about that tonight, uh okay, great so so we have a way way forward. You're close on Architectural, Review um I'm, not sure! Is there a meeting set? We do we have to calendar that right.

U

A

Okay, it's going to be scheduled we'll do that offline good! uh Then um I lost track that we're going too quickly I'm in the last application stuff. As far as uh our Consultants uh feedback, uh Mr Clark.

C

Yeah, um the main thing was um from my comments: the street tree they've agreed to put in a street tree, which is great. They have to talk to the tree committee um to talk about Titan.

C

The tree committee has been sort of back and forth about uh treatment of the well whether they want a grade here and they don't want a grape. They want more natural, so you're going to have to resolve with them how to handle. But from my perspective, you should have a bigger well than what you've shown and there should be a well detail in the in the plans and that um the location to me is suspect because it's right under the overhead wires.

C

They come in from Nepal to the adjacent building and it's only five feet off the existing light pole. So it seems to me it's going to have to be moved farther south to have any growing opportunity. So those are the two questions. Talk to the Greek committee about the well treatment, put a detail in and look at the location. So it's I'm, Not In conflict with the wire.

E

And we'll Deborah look at it too yep.

C

Yep and then, if you get agreement at the architecture review Sun committee before we can move forward on it as the board, but you haven't seen but you've seen redricks.

A

Thank you, Jerusalem.

D

So we have a few cleanup comments. um Also I will be meeting with the water and Source superintendent this morning uh tomorrow morning to discuss uh soar connections for the project. A few of the things the applicant needs to clean up, he's waiting for that meeting to occur to get additional information from the city, so they're moving in the right direction. At this point, great.

A

Thanks so um boards a couple things we can do tonight, we can talk about um authorizing Judd's office to draftnag deck, and we can also talk about doing these separately, setting a public hearing site plan public hearing for next month. Any thoughts on either of those.

F

H

I also agree that we schedule public hearing and start.

A

Working on that so we'll take them one at a time any other thoughts or input.

A

uh So on the subject of authorizing um our attorney to draft nagdek. Without the motion motion motion by David seconded second by Lane, all in favor.

H

A

And then, on the subject of setting a public hearing for site plan next month, motion motion motion by Len second, second, by David.

E

All in favor aye.

A

Thank you very much. Thank you. You can now put your jacket back on.

A

H

H

This has gone way too far. This.

A

Is this is the guy who showed up I love this I still razzing, for they showed up at our Zoom meetings during the pandemic, from.

P

I

A

In a full suit.

A

And yoga fans, okay on too hard.

B

J

A suit not necessarily the pants, well I'm, not saying I, wasn't wearing pants.

J

A

Such good memories lockdown.

F

Okay, next item.

A

On the agenda, we're gonna we're gonna, continue our review of an application for site plan approval and subdivision approval; mixed-use, commercial and residential 152-158 Fishkill Avenue.

A

Submitted by the applicant good evening.

E

Good evening, it's hot in here for the record Taylor Palmer, with the law firm of Cuddy Invader on behalf of the applicant I'm joined by this time, our project, architect, Jacqueline Tyler, great name. My son's Jack Tyler Palmer also joined by our traffic consultant, Rich D'andre who's, actually not here tonight, and our engineering consultant Mike morganti of Arden Consulting. The applicant is also joining us this evening.

E

As the chairman just mentioned, we are before you for our continued review of a site plan subdivision lot: merger application proposing to redevelop the property for a mixed juice, development at 152 and 158 Fishkill Avenue for 16 residential units and office. On the first floor. So at the March meeting, the board did announce its intent to serve as lead agency to serve for the secret review of the project as more fully detailed on his Jack will pull up in just a minute and our enclosed architectural renderings.

E

We are now proposing an additional we already had one in the rear of the building, but on the front of the building along Fishkill Avenue. We're now proposing an additional ADA Compliant access point along Fishkill Avenue, which will lead to an internal vertical lift uh Jacqueline view that in more detail in just a moment but giving the existing Topography of the site, the only other alternative along Fishkill Avenue's Frontage would be to develop a nearly 100 foot ramp along the front of the building on fiscal Avenue.

E

And that's just it's just the physics of getting it there and making it have the appropriate grade and the switchbacks to make it happen.

A

um 100 feet at one in 12. I'm doing my math right. That's 86 feet 86 feet so you're trying to get up how far.

E

Seven feet basically: oh.

E

Well, that's what effectively, what we're doing is going in at the grade and that's what will be allowing us to bring it. You know digging into the hill, that's in the existing condition and allows us to bring up the lift from that the lower floor, and that also allows us to landscape the area much more so than creating a big front of the building which is just a ramp.

E

um So we did try to provide a more efficient sort of access and ramp and again, hopefully, making more visually appealing building along the front of the building on fiscal Avenue. So we did also note in our submission and we'll get into that more detail. Mr morganti also just touch on the engineering because we haven't had that presentation yet, but we are looking at the feasibility.

E

Mr Clark mentioned the concept of lands, land banking, uh some of the parking as well to try and allow for some additional reading areas on the side as we develop the site plan. So with that, Jacqueline will please run through the adjustments here and uh we'll see in a minute.

R

Good evening again, Jacqueline Tyler, with Nexus creative I'll, keep mine short and I. Will let Mike go through the engineering, as Taylor mentioned, we and I think I had mentioned at the last meeting. Was we had attempted to accommodate an ADA ramp when we first looked at this and from the corner here we're sitting about seven feet as I just mentioned below our first floor level, uh the question was raised if we could reduce our first floor level. We could look at that.

R

However, I want to remind the board that, over in this corner, based on this grading that we currently have in the entrance, we have approximately a 17 foot retaining wall in the back. So that means that retaining wall would have to increase in size. On the back end, good.

A

Question, do you have a section through this site, I.

R

Do yep I will I will pull that up in one second. So um what we did this time we weeks ago to see if we could accommodate the ramp and again it was. It was roughly 86 feet long, so that took up essentially from our main entrance all the way over to the corner of our building. We felt it was really important to have a landscape element along the front of this. We didn't want the entire thing to be taken up by a ramp, so we did accommodate um about seven feet down.

R

There will be a entrance Lobby from the from the ground floor below the ground floor, I apologize that will contain a lift to bring you up to the main lobby, and that way we can accommodate our stairs here, as well as the entrance located here. I'll flip to the next cheeks I. Think it's a little bit clearer here. So you'll have your main entrance here, and this will be your lift Lobby down below which will bring you up to the main lobby accommodating the stairs here. Let me just flip over for you to the section.

R

We did not touch any of the architecture yet from the last meeting. Just to give you a heads up, so you can apologies, so you can see here um this the topography, this black line here is our existing grade. So what we've done is we've attempted to keep the exist, the building first floor level located at the existing grade, based on the placement of it on the lot and then we've provided again. This is this would be a landscape farmed area. This is not. This is not updated. Yet just so you guys know this section.

R

This was based on the previous application and we increase our height all the way to the rear. You know, I, don't know exactly what it is. It's 10 feet, plus.

A

That helps quite a bit because it sort of supports what my question was just with that I was asking myself and I'll ask now with the existing grade, because again my memory serves it's it's as it comes off of teller, it's pretty flat. There I mean it's sort of at.

R

The entrance and then, if you look so this.

A

Is this is this is basically an approach where you're you're filling right from the street level up to an elevation to where you want your quote, unquote main entrance in the back of the building correct.

R

So, where you see the white car currently now, that is roughly where our grade is currently. In fact, if you, if you're on site you'll, see that there's the parking behind the blue, the existing blue building, that is the existing grade, so.

A

R

Maintains where it is currently.

A

So is there any thinking around an approach to citing this in such a way that you're addressing the front of the building the street side of the building more as the front facing at that level and then sort of stepping it up sort of Midway through the building? So you have the ability to have kind of an interim meaning. There's got to be a.

B

Way because you're filling as.

A

Opposed to potentially cutting on the back side of the building right, my own right thing that the the approach gives you or it's creating that problem at the street level to where you need an 86 foot ramp.

R

So you're asking: can you create a split level at.

A

The first floor: well, that's one approach right, meaning instead of taking that high point elevation and carrying it all the way across, so that you create that 86 foot ramp problem at the street. What are the other? You know Solutions around dealing with that grade change as.

C

I, look at the site. It's two buildings, it's very flat on the North End, the high end, where the DND is, but it's actually goes up quite a bit from the sidewalk on the blue house. It.

R

C

No I'm not sure this.

R

C

R

One point through.

A

The site correct so I'm, actually thinking more toward where the car repair shop is right. Now the blue.

R

Building, which is it's sitting up high yeah? It.

C

R

C

Retaining wall along the front correct so.

B

C

That I say that again yeah, maybe you could at least put some slope into the parking lot. Yeah capture, a foot or two of that.

D

Those six spaces in the back, you might be able to shift that building back slightly also.

A

Yeah yeah I mean there's there's. Obviously there are other ways to approach this, such that the quote: unquote: Street side would you would sort of naturally consider the front of the building isn't ultimately treated just because of the great issues as it is in this instance, as the kind of back of the building, and therefore also the location where and I understand, there's conversation about instead of a ramp, a handicap left it's still being treated as the back of the building I.

E

Think part of what will happen. Mr chairman we did. We have retained Deborah adamson's as well as our landscape designer to do a lot of work on this which you haven't seen yet because we we just retained her. So the next submission will also adjust what you're, seeing from that side, rendering and we'll have other inclusions, so I think Mike will touch on I. Think the elevation piece of this and what just keep adding mics and John's.

A

Yeah um I get it I, guess the ultimate question I'm asking we don't have to answer it here. Is this more sort of theoretical? Why does the back of the building now need to be the front and why why and again.

E

We don't need so.

A

That's yeah. We went back to the drawing board and that's why we went.

E

From fiscal Avenue, we thought that by proposing the entrance with the lift, would allow for the most Street Frontage if we did whether it was by changing the building oriented moving things around. If we were, if we're getting 80 accessibility to the front because of the topography, it really does mean occupying a lot of that Frontage with a concrete physical, which is one way not great correct, which is why we're, which is why we've gone away from it, and we've posed the simple stair for for Access, and then we've included the ramp accurate.

E

You know straight in and added a ramp at that level, so as to open up that whole area for Greening and Landscaping, which I think will be more, will be visualized in the next again.

A

Here's my here's, my thinking on it. This is a street Frontage in a city that you're creating a an inaccessible front yard strip. That's planted nice, it's nice that there's planning there, but it's not engaging the stream well in any way right.

E

We are, we are essentially an extension of the CMS District, where we are with the transitional District transitioning between less intense and more intense three four-story buildings that front directly onto the sidewalk, so we don't want to set it back 150 feet to you know it's not in line with. If we did something like that, I'm sure John would have us pull it up to the front. We hear I, think we hear the comments and I think we need to incorporate them to add more presence, but we're that's the direction we're going.

E

We only had three days to kind of make some shifts from from last month. We just want to get your thoughts clearly, this is we didn't get there on the uh this.

A

Design all right, we'll turn it back. I'll I'll, reiterate the front of the building feels like the back of the building right now and personally in this in this city, regardless of the district I'd like to see more engagement of the street, the sidewalk anyway. Thank you and again it's just me I'm, not speaking on behalf of the board. Everybody here has you know their opinion too, and.

E

Again, we had three days to kind of make we wanted. We got here, I think it's important, Mr chairman what you mentioned and we're certainly working that direction. This is just again a a try to work up something based on the last meeting.

I

D

Was just thinking what, if they shifted the ramp to the back, which.

G

D

The Hydraulics.

E

We're in the building there we're in that comes straight into grid from the parking.

A

Lot yeah for the Ada I, don't know necessarily how to solve it. All I'm saying is and again I'd love to hear from the rest of the board. I understand, there's great issues right. You got to just it's always a design challenge uh right now is part of a city. It's a this is all residential on the ground floor right.

A

Commercial, correct, yeah again, I mean stuff like this, where you have to go to the back of the building to get in it's just it's.

C

Turning his face.

A

C

A

That a technical term, a.

E

Knob we'll put some pictures.

C

The place where the building's.

B

C

Is actually quite a ways up.

O

So it is a film there.

H

C

I I agree that everything we should do would be trying to make the front entrance feel like a front entry interest, yeah I.

A

Get it it goes up right and you're doing you're going to Great Lengths to fill, to meet that right so and again, I'm not going to argue that merits of filling as opposed to cutting, but there's also the option of cutting. But anyway.

O

So that's a good segue. For me, my name is Michael morgante I am the engineer for this application it's before the planning board, um just to give the board a couple of things to think about too, as it relates to the site. um You know.

O

Interior grades are a lot of times, they're, set by what the elevation is at the road as you enter the site in this case, I think our our elevations near the road are existing grades about elevation 145 and if you look at the existing conditions plan right here, the buildings almost 10 feet higher first floor elevation in the road currently right. Now it's a little over nine feet.

O

um So I was just at the site now before I came to the board. To this meeting took a bunch of pictures just for my own knowledge. Again, there is a little wall in the front. um It's it's kind of deceiving. It doesn't actually look like it's up that high, but it actually kind of is up that high in terms of reducing elevations within the site. There's the potential for me to take a look at shaving this down a little bit, but again it's that existing grade at the road.

O

That kind of really forces my hand on what I do for elevations inside the site. um If I drop, the elevation of the rear of the building I then lessen the percentage grade from the driveway. That would connect back down to the road and that's not a bad thing. But I have to look at my grades to make sure that I keep proper grades for drainage purposes. So I don't want to design a parking lot. That's less than two percent grade to make sure water's flowing and kind of moving.

A

Around in there, all of that makes sense. They're descriptive indicative of the grade challenges you're finding on your site, yep, there's Solutions there that are more elegant.

B

A

I think better than.

O

What we're seeing right now, that's all yeah! When we can, we can revisit that, um but moving the building back would be quite difficult because we've pretty much wedged in the parking that we've got shown there right now, so um I don't really think moving. The building back will help the site in terms of a parking.

A

um Sure I'm not sure anybody's, advocating moving it back.

O

Okay, I thought I'd heard somebody say.

D

D

That would help with what's occurring up front.

F

It's also a very long building.

A

Yeah, it's extremely long. You.

F

Could step it and that would actually perhaps help.

A

With the Aesthetics of them right, you have the Billy's wide enough along the long facade. You have this going on right.

A

Basically, going High Point.

O

Yeah it's on the ends. Yeah they'll be high in the middle and Below yeah. It's.

A

A very long building correct way to use that to sort of modulate and articulate right break things up a little um and the same. The same goes for the height going front. To back. You know you have those the architect describe a split level right. How would that work again? We're not going to solve it for you, but what we're.

B

A

Again, yeah I started with we're smart people that this is a design problem that has many many solutions, many possible solutions. This is one of them and again we think it means a lot more work and I know. You understand. I'm.

E

Just taking out that eight ball that I had out earlier and it I think a good thing would be to hopefully request referral to the ARB subcommittee.

C

E

Some of these communications so that we can try and start getting this the facade in a better position or the building Frontage um to really emphasize the front. So.

A

What you're saying is you're tired of hearing me go on and on about it you rather take it to a smaller.

E

Group, no and I I will also bring Jaclyn back up. She does have some pictures, but that we'll leave it with that because again.

M

E

To come, but I think it would be helpful too, to bring this to the subcommittee to get a lot of that sort of.

A

um Yep agree: okay,.

E

R

Yeah I do have I just wanted and again we have not adjusted any architecture, but I understand that. There's questions in regards to our overall height and the positioning, so I just wanted to clarify this here right. So this blue, you can see the blue building is it does have exposure along the front face. What we have done currently is maintain and utilize the existing grates.

R

We hear what you're saying about looking at other options, but I wanted to put this in front of you to clarify what John was saying that this portion is flat over here in front of the auto body, and it is fairly flat here, but the residence is situated up on a null, as you said up on here, what the um with the parking located in the.

A

Room, oh he's. You said Knoll, he likes that matter. I.

R

I thought you said. Oh sorry, sorry knob, sorry.

H

Null is better I've, never heard that's like JFK assassination, but no by itself is kind of Halcyon pastoral.

R

It's nice right so that you know we, we understand what you're you're saying and we'll we'll look at looking at the architecture to see what we can do. There.

A

Great um so yeah we I think yeah if the, if the yet to be codified, architectural subcommittee feels it's a good time to put this on the calendar for review. We already have another Architectural Review. So let's, let's do that.

Q

M

A

Act on that, forgive me, I forget the great into it. Yeah.

B

All right, good.

A

Thanks I'll accept a motion then to refer this application to the Architectural Review subcommittee motion motion violin second by Kevin, all in favor, okay, great what else? What else would you like to.

E

Discuss I think the only other things to Chairman is we're coming to a point where we'd like to discuss that the application does require a height variance based on how the code defines calculating the building height, not a story, variance that was previously reviewed with the building inspector and we do require a variance for height for the retaining wall. So, as so.

A

Now the building height but the retaining wall height.

E

Jenny Wall height and the building I the two so there's a two: how many feet two two and change on the building height Itself, by the way? It's where it's calculated from.

A

Would any of this conversation about what we just talked about? Help you to alleviate the need for either of those variances.

R

It will worsen it.

E

I believe from right.

R

Off the bat so.

E

We're not a verse being a better design. That's the purpose of some of these things. People.

A

Sound like a true lawyer.

E

Not all zoning could fit every property.

C

My guess it would worsen the wall yeah.

E

It will worse the wall.

F

C

Street supposedly the ground for a little along the street that you measure from okay.

E

Yeah we'll understand.

C

Why you need the building I mean you're close? Why can't you just make it work.

A

Yeah save yourself the headache.

E

John John's asking he's saying we're close on the building. Why can't we make it work and we'll I think we have to re-look at that, but I'm, just I guess effectively looking to your Council just as far as process or how the board wants we're, not pressing anything forward. We still have to meet with the every subcommittee want to have a building in a position that we'd even want to go, and you have to complete the secret process as a coordinated review before the zoning board could ever act.

E

There could be some parallellness with the zoning board because, no matter what the retaining wall is going to have a variance need.

L

Can I make a point, of course, um I think that you could avoid the request for a variance if you made it in two lifts, and uh you worked with a structural engineer to get for someone who did what's called supportive excavation work right to see if the wall that you are actually proposing is physically possible, because it doesn't look like something that would make sense, either economically or structurally right, because those retaining walls that high are incredibly expensive to build right and it's much less expensive, you're already over parked.

L

I I would suggest that, rather than pursuing a uh a variance for a situation, that's not in the best interest, I! Think of the public and in this building, even that that you uh examine um uh uh using a different type of retaining wall and bringing it in lowering it down and using that I.

B

L

Know using what might be an over parked situation is an opportunity to remove some of the parking you know just.

J

Know one thing that's been outstanding on this for a while. Certainly since the last meeting and I know Mr Russo had noted, it was doing just that doing boreholes and looking at the feasibility of this.

O

If I, if I, can make one comment uh to that point, so um I've zoomed in a little bit on this section of the site plan here and um at the end of the day, I just want to remind the board that our elevation in the parking lot is going to be 150, 151 152, whatever it's going to be, whether I can lower it or not. I'll do my best. That's not going to change the elevation of the wool in the back.

O

It may give me an opportunity to step a wall if I were to remove parking space, but technically that wall still 16 17 feet high. So it doesn't work, fluid us I think from a variance, but it may it may provide a better visual impact for the site, I'm, not sure so short ease, maintenance or circulation for us, but we could take a look at it. You.

A

Were about to ask us to refer you to the zoning board? No! Okay! No.

E

I think it was just a point of information, Mr chairman, just on how the board, if it's something once we come to a a point, hopefully at the next meeting, where we have a building design after the ARB review, where we might be in a position where this is the layout of the site. Maybe we do to you know, show the tiering that Mr morganzi just mentioned of a retaining wall wherever we're at.

E

What's the, how does the board want to handle that process of referral and at what time would that be appropriate for this application? My.

A

Two cents I I, want the applicant to get to the point where, as a cohesive application things like the parking the wall deciding all of this are understood, feasible enough for the zoning board, because we don't want to send something up to the zoning board that they then have to ask you a bunch of ton of questions on either that I think and I.

A

Don't know, I'm speaking for the zoning board, but that that approach should be as tight as possible and as close to what you're planning to do and as far as a you know, a realistic approach uh as possible is.

P

That you know that's the board's decision as to when um to me just sitting here. It seems that if, if the project the design is going to be refined through the ARB process, why don't you at least take that step and.

A

P

A

It's a little early, we have you.

C

Know we have a little ways to go: yeah RB, doesn't really nerves subcommittee doesn't really look at any.

C

It don't make the architecture what's handled by the AR yeah.

A

Yeah I mean there's a there's, a couple things that have to happen still yet at one's ARB and again, the the review of the ARB will, to some degree, be impacted by what's happening as far as the sighting and what's happening as far as you know how you're resolving the.

E

Part I think you've collectively answered my question. I appreciate.

B

E

Were just looking as a point of information that the board, when it's at a position, that's comfortable with the layout functionally, would be the appropriate time. We would. The only reason why we ask is that at some point we will We believe we'll need to go to the zoning board.

I

E

It's just for one or or another variance or if the building design is adjusted to reflect these comments and change is one of those two that we'd like to try and at least be at the zoning Board in some level of parallel track. The only sort of hold up will, of course, be the next, the secret determination at a future date, yeah.

D

From a decision I.

E

Should say not from appearing at the zoning board.

D

As far as where you're going to be looking land-based bases,.

D

C

Problem is with land banking. You actually have to physically yeah.

H

If I have to get to them, if you need them right.

B

C

The other option on the table is a shared parking deduction. You know, we said all two spaces is fine for sure, but you could.

B

C

A larger shared parking Arrangement and then you would would be have the room in this corner to maybe curve that one.

D

C

Terrace it so that you.

A

um Yeah I I'd be.

C

All for me, I'd.

A

E

Awful there might be some combination of all.

C

These things yeah.

A

I would be I would be important for that if it goes to mitigating this idea of a giant wall, um yeah.

O

One of the things I was looking at here uh just now that the board might want to um take a look at with me is uh from where my mouse is standing right now, where this uh tree is proposed. If we took out a bunch of these spaces of these about four spaces right here in, like one or two on this side, you could end up with a nice caddy cornered stepped retaining wall, and your loading dock would, like your loading area I, should say, would blend in nicely against that wall.

O

I could probably find a spot for refuse in that location. I think it would take care a lot of the visual impact that the board's concerned about it would minimize the thicknesses and sizes of walls. It might look more appropriate for the site. We've bought the fishing a little bit more on our parking requirements, but if that's something we can work with with the board in the city, then I think it.

A

Sounds like there's an Avenue for that, at least this.

B

A

Is in support of that I'm happy to hear from the rest of the board around.

D

Out of that approach,.

O

No, we did. We actually did storm water testing throughout the whole site. Last week we actually tested that corner. We got down about five. Six seven feet still didn't hit rock actually yeah.

U

O

That's just a whole bunch of dirt. It's a whole bunch of dirt. It's actually a fine sand with a little bit of silt.

L

Easy to bring it to the street great actually.

O

A good good time for me to ask Mr Russo a quick question, um so we're less than an acre, so I don't necessarily need a full slip, but we're going to be looking at some kind of to be looking forward. Yes,.

O

Yeah pretty versus post at the very least, okay.

I

A

Good anything else around the board, questions for the applicant or thoughts about this approach toward you know the applicants, considering you know, limiting reducing parking well for those effective. You know mitigating this giant wall at.

J

Least, for me, it's hard not to draw the observation that I mean before we even opened up this discussion tonight, we're already being asked to effectively excuse them from part of the parking that would otherwise be required, and that may well be justified. They're also asking for a retaining wall, that's higher than is otherwise allowed and for a variance for Building height, and what we're hearing is that some of the concerns with the retaining wall would be addressed. If there were fewer parking spots, the building wasn't as high. They wouldn't need all these variances period.

J

Kind of hard for me not to draw that observation, I mean right.

F

That's why not look at reducing the size of the building so that it could fit on the lot appropriately? That's.

A

C

How the conversation is trending and I? Obviously none of us can speak for the zoning board, but I think a building height variance is a touchy subject.

A

There really is not.

C

A

Speak for your old board, but you know.

C

Them better, you can manage without Building height I, think the retaining wall would be a little easier for them to stomach yeah.

E

C

Know it's just a guess: I.

E

I, just you know, I hate to be the the dead horse, but we we did try and put this together in a couple days to try and address those comments. So we have some work to put back into this work by no means see.

H

You later, what's the Delta and the building height and.

E

This- and this is by the way, not the maximum density of the site by any stretch, we're we're well below the density. That's permitted here so just want to make it.

A

Very very clear.

A

We know we didn't do exactly what the you know. Zoning allows so aren't we great they're trying to respect.

E

Do you think we'll we'll listen in for who uh is fortunate to be appointed this evening and.

A

E

Date um we might set for the subcommittee meeting.

A

Good segue to our next agenda item. Thank you. Thank you. Miscellaneous business. Appointing planning board members to serve on the Architectural Review Board subcommittee.

A

We have a resolution appointing planning board members to serve on the Architectural Review subcommittee, which I'm sure, especially for those of you who are nominated, have reviewed and those who have been nominated. Are you aware of this Kevin Byrne, one of our most senior ARB members to a new two-year term expiring, April, 2025, Leonard, Warner, land seasoned ARB, member and Ms Karen Kiana? You would be a new member.

F

A

That's right, you were an alternate so you're, it's not you're you're a rookie, but you have experience.

A

You know what you're doing so. uh We have this resolution. I, don't think we need to read the whole thing, um any conversation around the board uh or otherwise a motion to adopt this resolution for these three ARB members to serve two-year terms.

M

Can we motion ourselves.

A

I'll make I'll make the motion motion. Second, all in favor, aye aye. Congratulations.

J

Yeah, what was I supposed to say better than me, I'm.

A

J

A

Look it's an honor.

L

It's an honor to be nominated.

A

It's a great honor, it's a lot of fun. Actually I did my time 100 years ago. It feels like oh you're, leaving thank you very much, Judd very nice to meet you thanks for spending the time and you got off really easy tonight.

J

A

J

Have a great night have a great evening: safe drive home.

A

Okay, so that brings us to Architectural Review to.

E

The planning board attorney for keeping a jacket on the entire.

A

Time yeah he's he's sweating.

C

Under that, the only thing I wanted to know enough first architecture view is on the building. I can't remember the name: 456 I think it is working.

A

C

A

C

I just wanted to stay. If you look at the streetscape along that entire block on that side, it's the only storefront that hasn't been restored to a sort of more traditional.

A

C

And I'm sure that the person coming here is leasing the building and doesn't have control over that, but it'd be nice to put a peek put a jab at the owner to say you know: it'll be nice for that one to be consistent with the neighbors.

A

Yeah I'm going to speak honestly, can you there are? There are instances where for continuity for historic, you know for historic. It makes sense to to queue a little bit closer in this instance. For some reason it doesn't bother me and I I, like the sort of changeup, because there is, you know a little bit of monotony if you think about it as lovely as all of the buildings are on Main Street, the historic buildings, I kind of like the surprise of the break of monotony.

C

Especially a residential door that looks like it's, you know, anyway, with.

H

The chance can you I'm not sure.

H

Just reiterate: please, because.

C

I didn't know 86., so 456 hang on a second 456 which is coming before you next on facade and sign.

A

Oh here, oh geez, I'm, totally off yeah and.

H

B

Even it's not coming up for.

A

Me so we have a sign for 456.

C

A paint color and.

A

Colors, because when.

B

You look at that. Forgive me. That's.

C

The only one that sort of sticks out is having that it's.

H

Like almost like a game.

J

Storefront yeah, sorry I, don't know.

H

I, don't even have a picture I can show you they're making at least the street view yeah.

L

L

That's right, eBay space or something where they were showing things in the windows.

F

It was annoying.

H

No, but look at the they're proposing some columns. It.

J

Appears right, so we can ask them remember walking by.

L

There I I, never you couldn't walk in. It was just in.

F

A

L

Were selling it, I mean from this.

F

L

A

F

A

Spent a little bit of time, pre-reviewing this. This is um certificate of appropriateness for.

H

A

So what he's saying is that sorry, thank you for interrupting. Oh.

P

A

um But if you have questions, let's, let's first hear from the applicant and then let's is the applicant here- 456. hi uh come on up and then let's ask those questions in context of this review.

N

Yes, hi hello, um so my intention is obvious to uh just kind of spruce up that facade and make it go on keeping with the rest of the block invested a street and give it a bit of a um more of a classic Style.

A

So we have a couple questions: it is it's a great building and you heard some of them perhaps, but we'll sort of take them in order.

A

um As far as the facade are you doing anything to replace or otherwise upgrade the door, the.

N

Door itself, yeah um I, wasn't going to um I I can do that. I was more concerned with that kind of like that green wood. That's existing there now and replacing that with the oil working over that with a you know, more classic style, molding and so forth, and some you know, palaces and corbels and so forth. Yeah.

A

M

N

Certainly, you know I get it that.

A

Could be replaced as well. It's ugly yeah um yeah.

N

Well, you know, but yeah so was the best of it and I thought. Well, let's take care of the you know the larger area yeah, um but yes, I could be a place to do it as well.

A

Yeah I think you know to something a little bit more in keeping with the sort of traditional. Yes,.

M

A

So, if you're willing to do that great, thank you we'll take that into account of this review. So I'm just curious too. The color you've got a you've, got sort of a rendering. Yes, here of the facade with the Christopher Stella Gallery sign in and amongst what looks to me to be new sort of wood, yeah, drawing.

H

For this, because it looks like we've got a cornice here above the sign the columns there's, you know yes, a bunch of things around, so is this. Actually, this is more than just a facade repaint and a sign application that.

N

Looks very shallow, I mean it's the corner that was speaking of you know.

M

N

Not like a large, you know, uh maybe um you know two foot depth kind of thing, but there is a kind of cornice that is now there is like an existing beam piece of wood going across and the corners would not really stick out much more than that.

N

um Just be more decorative and more classic and molding style.

H

Kind of working off a rendering you know there's more than just uh you know this isn't just a repaint and a sign. Do we.

A

Need no, it looks like there's a.

H

Lot of Applied material here for the for, like a you know, for a facade redesign, do we need, like a building department, review for beyond what we're doing right now,.

A

That's a good question: Bruce.

H

Can you come, can you come over for a second can I show you I'd like to because I have it up on my screen and I can show you what's happening so.

A

You can understand our conundrum, so there so there's a certain amount of application of what it looks to the board.

H

But the architectural elements to the front of this right. Yes, as.

T

Opposed to Justin you're, usually in a.

A

Certificate of appropriateness reviews we're looking at simply paint colors applied to an existing situation. Yeah but I.

P

Mean and in the case of.

A

Signage, it's very specific right. So the question of the lens asking that's.

H

Bruce, to the extent.

A

To what it looks like you're, right sort of attempting here by applying elements to the face of the building, is that more of a building department, yeah.

B

Thing that we want to approach so.

A

Bruce, what is.

I

Your determination obviously applied to the front of the building.

B

I

So it's just a.

I

Structural change so.

A

Not a not a permit, no, no, absolutely.

I

It's basically just trimming out everything. That's.

N

Okay, correct and- and let's keep in mind, it's yes, exactly it's more applying some additional molding to it, but is already existing there, but with speaking of maybe four six inches tops yeah. um So it's not like a structural thing. You know adding a lot of um yeah.

A

You know elements to it, understood, understood, I. Think again, it raises the question. What does this look like? What will this ultimately look like right, because I appreciate the submission, but from this illustration it is not clear in terms of the detail and how this will ultimately end up. Looking, it's not clear.

N

What would make it clear.

H

uh Like do, we need to know the dimensions that this is going to project out from the existing facade with the yeah.

A

I mean it would be, it would be useful from our point of view, to see a scale elevation right, one that was drawn to scale in relationship to the scale of the building right, as opposed to a photograph with what looks like elements photoshopped that aren't necessarily to scale. You know it's very hard to see what when, for example, you're representing the columns here.

H

Right are they? Are they square and cross-section? Are they cylindrical I mean you could guess you can't tell exactly from.

F

This drawing and what material are they? It could also be possibly just noted. You know, like all of the dimensions of the trims, that you're.

D

F

A

And then you know, typically, when you see things like this new cornice element, I understand this idea of you know it's not going to protrude that much it's not one of our deepest concerns, it's more like. What's it going to look like I'll tell you this whatever you do is going to look better than.

N

What's there already, I was going to say that, but I was trying to be polite.

H

Absolutely again, that's.

A

Understood but the charge is it's really.

H

A

For us to say just looking at this yeah, we can approve that because it's really hard to tell.

H

And would you I mean.

N

I think um well, uh I, don't know if I agree with that, but it was you.

A

Know you you're the you're, the man so I. Guess the leader I'm telling you it's very difficult and as the body you know,.

B

Who knows whether my.

A

Fellow board members agree as the body approving this from my position: I can't confidently approve something that I can't understand and I can't read: okay, so.

H

And I mean just out of curiosity, were you were you planning on doing this work yourself, or were you going to have a contractor? Do this and I guess I'm only I'm asking to kind of you.

N

Know I'm gonna have a contract and I was hoping to get a permit to do that. I know why you're asking.

H

Well, yeah I mean I'm just to kind of turn. Your comment back on you, a tiny bit. You know, are you going to let the contractor just you know, build it off a napkin sketch or are you gonna? You know and that's what I'm kind of saying is like you know, this is about the this is kind of the equivalent of a of a kind of you know reasonably well done conceptual idea: hey I'd, like you know, a cornice I'd, like some columns.

A

Any good contractor would say: okay, give me some drawings that I.

H

Can like what am I if.

N

I was a contractor I'd be like okay. What well I'm going to be working with the contractor so but I.

H

Think you know you, obviously, if I asked you you'd probably say yeah, obviously I need to tell the contractor more than what you can just glean from this drawing. We would want the same level of detail that somebody could actually go and execute it. Okay,.

A

And again, this is our Point here isn't to deter you or to you know. You know, because it's good that you're looking to improve the the facade of this, but we wouldn't be. We wouldn't be a responsible body if based on what we see here and knowing what we know about the fact that you're looking to add elements to it- and we appreciate your patience with us, but it's very challenging for us to really get a good sense of what this will ultimately look.

N

Like in two weeks, so I.

F

Yeah well I'm, just trying to you know, help streamline the process, and you know knowing that you could go to the dykes, catalog and say this is the molding that I'm going to be using. You know at this in this position. You know you could kind of give us the the list of parts that you're using.

N

Wouldn't that suffice.

A

N

Not very well but I know of it, but.

A

It's like it's like a Woodworker's Wonderland.

H

A

H

It, what material are you planning to construct? Is this all wooden construction or no.

N

It's uh I think it's listed as a PVC, so.

H

It's all fiberglass elements.

A

Yeah, wood, it's something you know, molded from a catalog right.

F

That's what I'm saying so.

A

Yeah, that level of detail would be really really helpful.

N

B

N

Then I have to update the uh and and submit it for the next meeting, I suppose correct yeah. Well, what can I do to that facade in the meantime paint it is that acceptable.

A

Depends on what color you want to paint it.

N

I was thinking of black panther I I have a couple of natural Brown It's a Benjamin Moore natural brown, color I think I have a sample that.

A

um Yeah again, I'm not sure how much the city shares with folks like you in advance of coming here, we usually like to see it physically. She, the actual paint chips. Oh.

N

I, haven't any of you like this: okay.

A

So you do that I still got it, uh so your your plan would be in the interim excuse.

M

A

Would be in the interim between.

N

You now and yes, meeting.

A

N

Color, yes, I might as well paint it. um Yes, yeah.

A

Let's, let's see the color we can, we can ostensibly approve the color tonight.

A

There's that's something.

A

H

It's probably not the.

A

Simplest of that, it's a little more like a rust, but um you got one in support two and support three.

A

What wait till we're done here? So we yeah.

F

N

J

L

I suggest one thing just when you, uh when you uh make another stab at the facade, I, think you'll save money and also make it look simpler and better. If you only use if you frame the window with the columns right and have the doors.

A

Sorry Kevin we can, we can do that. We just we were talking about paint so.

L

No, no I know I thought we'd approved it.

A

No, we hadn't, okay, sorry, we hadn't acted on it yet so um I appreciate that you want to. You know further help the applicant just in terms of an approach, but I just wanted to get through the subject of the paint.

A

So if you're asking us in the interim- and this is how we'll approve it to paint the existing green areas, the color you just submitted would that include the window trim and the door trim and the door the door itself.

N

H

The door trim is white and the door is blue. Would.

A

You be looking at paint everything okay, so so this would be an approval to paint in their existing state. All of the areas of green, the white window trim and the blue door is that.

H

Is that brick under there is that.

A

Word sorry, I'm in the middle.

H

I know, but it's important it's relevant to this I'm, sorry to interact with the white door. The last question I have is that the green below the storefront window is that painted on top of the brick or is that another piece of particle board? I'm? Sorry I can't just it looks I guess it is another piece of particle board.

H

It is all right. I've answered my question so yeah, sorry, everything, green, no problem, yep.

A

um So all in favor, I, I, I, I, okay and then just for the record, if you wouldn't mind giving Amanda that color the color number, no just the number Benjamin Moore.

N

J

2103-10 Benjamin Moore saying that so it gets recorded.

A

D

Thank you. We appreciate.

A

Your patience with us and all right so.

H

Now we're understanding the structural I'm a second we're not well we're not done yet.

A

Yeah so I'm sorry Kevin had some some just suggestions for you, so Kevin. If you wanted to.

L

um Move on to that I don't want to go in too much uh length, but uh when you look at the proposed design that you had yeah, it's actually there's a lot going on right. It's actually a small facade and what I the first thing I would do is I would look closely at the rest, the rest of the adjacent buildings.

L

Yes, because one of the things that John had mentioned uh and I think it's right is that this is a one of the most intact and decorative blocks in Beacon and people really are so uh fond of this town. And and as you are that's why you, you know- and you want to do a beautiful building uh and I- don't want to like over design it for you or anything like that.

L

But I think that um simplifying and and using thinner, verticals right, all you have to do I think is- is trim the top right with with a type of uh an appropriate and I. Think if you looked at the other buildings, there'd be a similar sort of cornice above the glass right and then most of these doors have incredibly simple thin columns between where the doors are and where the windows are right.

L

So if you you're going to have to rebuild this, when you do it right, you're going to need it I'm assuming you're gonna, it's a new piece of glass am I right or.

H

It looks like premiere.

N

N

H

Okay, hold on a second it's just uh and see. This is another reason why it would be really helpful to have um a scale drawing because from the from the. If you look at the existing facade and then look at your rendering it looks like the window is I, don't know, maybe I, just maybe it's hard to tell. Maybe it's just the sign is really I guess the sign is what's taking up most of this, so the glasses staying the same, but.

A

Again, I think for a little bit of guidance in terms of your coming back next month, more detail on what specifically you're looking to apply to the next and um it being in scale and in relationship to you know the actual right. So.

N

A

You, okay, yeah.

H

And thank you yep, so I'm.

A

Sorry we have your sign as well, so my question for you on the sign is: would you rather us discuss that with you in in I'm kind of leading here, I'd almost prefer it, but let me know your thoughts. Would you like us to review the sign tonight, or would you rather look at it in a cohesive application next month? What.

N

Would make sense in a cohesive application, however, if you see something that is outstanding and needs to be changed, I better hear it now right.

A

Now and quite honestly, I kind of like the the interplay between the brown and the sort of rust, so color wise you're in the right.

N

Direction the US is actually uh I have a Swatch of that. If you'd like to.

A

See it yeah sure and then and then just as far as.

N

The and the effect that was before the complicated things.

A

Yeah, as far as the painting.

N

The door the same color as the background on the side well,.

A

You just got approval for brown.

N

So but maybe the next stage great.

A

We could do that too. Intermediary.

N

A

Great no problem, um yeah I mean you got. You got the paintbrush out anyway, just color with brown.

N

A

As far as the the sign color we'll look at it.

N

A

Can we look at it in context of the brand and as far as the the lettering and the color of the lettering, lettering's gold.

N

I have that hold on one moment.

N

Yes, Benjamin ing bolt I have that pow.

B

C

H

Know, while we're waiting here, I want to I want to raise something, though you know, while we're waiting here I want to raise something, and that is is that, even though uh you know I I feel like you're truncating the conversation on the facade, do you really want a proliferation of of chunky columns on that facade?

H

The way some of these houses have been renovated with these massive cylindrical columns that look like they're, squeezing the porch out of existence- and you know you want to rush through that discussion and then have it again next month when it comes back with a drawing, and it has like three columns when maybe it could be two and they could be narrower or do you just not care I mean I? Think it's you don't want. Just like a wacky, applique right, I, think I, don't think you do I, don't even want to.

Q

Get out of here but.

H

You're kind of like truncating you're, like okay, we're done no I, think it's it's important.

A

H

Said yesterday no.

A

I, didn't you have the opportunity so don't.

H

Ask me we were having this discussion you're like okay, we're. You know we're talking.

A

We're gonna go back.

I

To the record I.

A

Never said we're done and you have the opportunity when I decide to go to the sign to say may I add something you're welcome to do that. So please don't characterize me as.

H

Truncating watch yourself on the video next time you know or grow do do a instant replay next, you know after after this is over and take a look at it and then just try to see it. From my perspective, how.

A

Would you like to I'd, like you to finish this, please, okay in any way, shape or form you see fit I'm.

H

Gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna take the opportunity to just to go back to this for a second because before and and the and one of the reasons I want to do this is that I don't want to have you go off and produce a drawing that we requested and then have you come back next month and have me ask the question to you: why do you you know?

H

Why are you trying to jam three columns onto the onto this facade when perhaps it might seem more appropriate or just keeping with the construction of this type of building, is to have two columns framing the the display window?

H

Okay and there's another one kind of it, looks to me a little bit kind of crowded in next to the entrance, and so I just want to come out and say that now and give you time to think about it and consider it like I said before you go through the trouble of of producing a scale, drawing and I'll leave it I'll leave it at that and I'll just say that and building on what Kevin said about look at the adjoining storefronts The Columns are a little bit slender and I feel it's important to say this because I'm, seeing in the city, a proliferation of of renovated porches on houses with kind of elephantine cylindrical, columns that are, they can barely fit on the porch and there's.

H

It seems like there's too many of them and uh and I think it's if we're gonna go through the trouble of reviewing the facade. It just makes sense to kind of like have that discussion now and not race past it and then and then give you more comments next time and have you come back potentially result the situation where you're coming back a third time. Okay, so thank you. That's it.

N

H

It um so I'm sorry to interject that, but so we we want to we'll return to the sign. Please, okay,.

N

No problem, thank you got it.

A

Please proceed I.

H

Will I will I'm just gonna I'm gonna, pull it up and I'm I'm frustrated by an incredibly slow network connection right now, so we have both. uh Can you please just come back and approach and just show us the two or the different point out again the different colors on the on the sign and the chips.

N

H

And then the lettering itself.

F

Just see that with the burgundy.

H

Oh, that's cool I, like it any comments for anybody on the on the font or the color combinations for the signs.

L

B

L

Don't have any problems with colors I think it's it's it's uh fairly. um It's with a the colors are within a pretty narrow range. So thank you.

H

I, don't have any further questions about the does anybody else have any other comments about the the sign itself.

H

Thank you. Do we need to get those other color codes entered into the record? No okay,.

N

N

N

Thank you thank.

H

You thank you thanks.

A

You want to take the next one.

H

You know what go for it. Don't don't.

A

Q

Hi hi good evening, Jason caridas with Corcoran country living, uh proposing to paint the facade of 215 Main Street and seeking a permit for a one-sided sign above the doorway.

Q

And as for the colors, um I was also looking at three similar Shades of Gray, all historic Benjamin Moore, which I have I'm not married to anything.

F

I only see really two different Shades of Gray on the rendering I.

Q

Mean it's actually monochromatic, it's all good I mean I, haven't oh.

B

Q

Haven't selected anything I've picked out three. It's.

F

Really subtle changes right.

Q

Three Shades of Benjamin, more historic gray, but.

F

um And but there's some trim detail. That's darker.

Q

It's not, it looks like it looks like that in the rendering, but it's actually monochromatic.

F

A

Okay, anything.

I

L

Comments or go for it, no uh one of the things you might that might be an issue is that you know you can only get storefront doors in in a limited amount of bronze colors right, and so uh it might be tough to have that work with your gray right. You might want to try a sample of that and and select the gray based upon what um uh what has the the least amount it may there may be a jarring uh contrast between the two Browns or Grays or whatever they are the.

Q

The door actually is is what it um it was. I've purchased. It I found a historic door at the shop in Newburgh across.

L

The river oh I, know the place sure great okay, and so it will be the same gray or yes,.

Q

L

Same situation, where the trim just looks different in the rendering.

Q

The the door of Mayor again I I'm, not I, don't feel strongly about it. The door could be black, uh the color of the awning or it could be I think it probably should there should be some contrast, but it might be a different shade of gray.

F

I like it as a contrast, the door, okay.

Q

So I can go black with the door same as yawning and.

B

Q

Keep the um yeah keep the facade great.

F

Otherwise, it looks nice.

H

To that and then, if you're memorializing, that tonight, you're gonna You're Gonna Go the doors you're gonna choose to paint black and I'm so excited yeah I said you're memorializing. That decision tonight to make the door black.

Q

Yeah absolutely.

H

I, don't have any questions or comments on this one.

A

L

Do you have a sample of the gray I.

Q

Q

Three historicals that I was looking at I'm kind of I, like the one in the middle personally with the door in the awning speed. Obviously,.

J

F

Man take a look at this one you're interested in yeah. That's great.

F

For the record.

Q

And also I haven't purchased the light yet, but it seems to be just something.

A

That's and that's the fixture you have here in your yes and.

Q

There are actually two of them that we're replacing.

A

H

Is that meet all of our? What does that mean I'm not familiar with our lighting standards, but it's it's a downward angle that meets all the.

F

That's in versus.

H

Q

Q

I think my contract actually literally took it from the building next door. So it's the same. The same one.

F

Thank you anything.

A

Else anyone else go.

B

L

Oh I, the only thing I wasn't sure about was whether or not that sign was in the plane of the glass in front or whether it's set back towards.

Q

The glass was actually removed, it's plywood now, so it would be, uh it would be inset above the door, um but unfortunately the glasses. The glass is not there. Okay,.

L

Okay, good it just so interesting, I think it'd be fine, either way.

A

I'll accept a motion to approve, unless there's anything else.

A

By Kevin, second, by Karen, all in favor aye.