Carroll County, MD Board of County Commissioners Open Sessions, 16 Feb 2023

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From YouTube: Board of Carroll County Commissioners Open Session Feb 16 2023

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Carroll County Government, MD
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A

Okay good morning, commissioner, ed rothstein, it is thursday february.

A

16Th for our open session, we will uh go into close for legal advice afterwards,.

A

And then back into open session this afternoon for a couple of updates.

A

As always before, we start, let's uh take a moment. Stanford pledge of allegiance and moment sounds.

A

Okay, um I feel like every thursday, I'm saying something to this effect.

A

Pushing strength and courage for those um loved ones of those that have lost their lives in.

A

Michigan state the other day and continuing uh to go through the recovery in turkey and syria.

A

From that massive earthquake that happened a few weeks ago, it's just amazing how.

A

Something so tragic is not anywhere to be seen in any part of the news, and it is still a.

A

Extreme tragedy: um let's start with commissioner vigliotti, what's on your mind, well, thank you very.

B

Much commissioner rothstein, I will do my best to be brief. I've got a couple of things this morning.

B

um So uh and I'll, let others talk about the community uh or the college board of trustees.

B

I know everybody attended that the other day um I have been out and about speaking with those who.

B

Are for and against solar development, including visiting where solar development may occur. I very.

B

Much appreciate the continued input that we've had and having the chance to see some things firsthand.

B

On the ground, um and on that note- and I know it'll be mentioned again later- that we do have.

B

The public hearing coming up on february 23rd at 6 pm here in the reagan room locally, new windsor.

B

Is going to be holding a station format, town hall on thursday february 23rd at the new windsor fire.

B

Department at 101 high street, for those interested in or with questions about the ongoing maryland.

B

Route 31 improvements, project questions are going to be able to be asked and answer that evening and.

B

Anybody who lives on route, 31, main street or high street is strongly encouraged to attend.

B

On monday, I had the chance to visit the future northwest regional park north of tontitown along.

B

Route 194, along with parks and rec, director, jeff or recreation and parks, director, jeff, degas, chief.

B

Of parks, brad rogers and digital media manager, chris swam swam northwest park, is a 145 acre site.

B

That was purchased in 2019, using program, open space funds and that's funding that could only.

B

Be used for the purchasing of parkland before this purchase, there were no county-owned parks.

B

That existed west of littlestown pike and north of middleburg road. The future park is 50 acres.

B

Of existing forest plenty of rare flat, open land and will allow for the environmental protection.

B

Of a huge part of piney creek uh later on this year, we're going to be soliciting proposals for.

B

A design firm to develop a master plan for the site. That's going to include public meetings.

B

Citizen input, consideration of various amenities, etc, and details about these are going to be.

B

Forthcoming and as a as an amusing side note, as you see some of these photos that mr swam.

B

Had taken, he was operating an aerial drone to do photography and, as he was operating the throne, he.

B

Was explaining to me that you know certain large birds quite frequently attacked drones and about.

B

10 seconds later, a large bird started circling the drone and mr slim was fortunately able to avoid.

B

Becoming lunch um so on uh so on wednesday, I had the opportunity to visit the historic courthouse.

B

uh For a tour with the esteemed judge, brian de leonardo, as well as getting a better more.

B

In-Depth sense of the operations that go on at that courthouse, um you know one of the really cool.

B

Things- and you saw a picture there a second ago- was that we have a legal library here in carroll.

B

County uh and uh you know it's open to the public, which is really cool and there are books in there.

B

That go back hundreds of years, and you know if you consider law order and justice as a central.

B

Component of what determines civilization, you know, I think we have something quite exceptional in.

B

This county and in this country and of course you saw in another picture there, uh the judge.

B

Judy leonardo hanging over the uh the side of the bench of the front. uh It was a good tour and again.

B

It's open to anybody and again the legal libraries open to the public, and that is it for me for today.

B

Thank you, commissioner. Okay, mr schaefer feel free to go visit that legal library, anytime you'd, like.

A

And uh but I didn't call you esteem, no, you don't have any points of order at this point. Can you.

A

Just walk in right right: it is open to the public right. I appreciate that you do need to sign up you.

C

Can't just go to the courthouse right: you can't just walk in right, but it is. Why did I open up.

A

This can commissioner kyler, um I want to mention, I know it's early, but the second annual veterans.

D

Celebration at carroll county will be sunday, may 7th and put it on your calendars. A great event.

D

um Been attending mako meetings and mako virtual meetings and been trying to do as.

D

Much as possible of it on wednesdays, in annapolis and and we're getting to meet.

D

A bunch of the delegates, a bunch of the senators, it's it's very positive.

D

um Commissioner vigliotti mentioned the uh carroll community college presentation. It was awesome.

D

um And I also attended their uh board of trustees meeting last night, but one of the things I think.

D

That impressed me the most. The the information was good. um I love to see stuff like their.

D

Ranking and and the impact they have on the communities et cetera, et cetera, but.

D

A lot of people give us tours a lot of people meet with us. They had every member of the board.

D

Of trustees there, plus one had to be virtual to me- that's impressive- that that board of trustees.

D

Or that bought into it that they take that time that morning to meet us and and there.

D

Were staff there too, and of course, president of college, but I just thought that was impressive.

D

um I toured to carroll county youth services, bureau, lynn, davis- that was awesome and uh it's.

D

Just amazing and they're busting out of that building and they're probably be busting out.

D

Of the addition, when they build it- and it's just again something I mentioned during that tour when.

D

You see the names on the doors of donors, it's carroll county is pretty great and I challenge.

D

Other counties to have a place where we all work together and it seems like everybody in carroll.

D

County seems to reach out and work with all the other players and as far as citizens, you see a.

D

Lot of the same names that have donated a room or a building or whatever and and that's impressive.

D

I met with jeff daggett's, wrecking parks and talked about stuff going on in my district.

D

And again, that's that's! That's nice! uh Whatever we can get for.

D

Recreation and quality of life for the kids and the adults is great.

D

Again, as commissioner vigliotti said, I've met with some uh solar people on both sides of the.

D

Fence, looked at some properties with both sides of the fence and it's going to be interesting.

D

And it and then to hear the public hearing, I'm scheduling some various meetings with some of.

D

The fire, companies and um they're always interesting. It's again in carroll county.

D

It's tough to get volunteers today, but we seem to be surviving doing it and and the hybrid system.

D

Is going to help it out a lot, but it's impressive- and I think I mentioned in an earlier meeting- I'm.

D

Surprised they have a lot of young volunteers. I just wrote a a letter of reference for a.

D

Young carroll, county person who's been a volunteer since high school and is applying for a full-time.

D

In howard county, but it's a lot of young guys jumping into that people. That's you know, say the.

D

Young young men and women aren't doing that; they they are jumping into stuff and then one thing I.

D

Want to mention um commissioner rothstein's mentioned it more than I, but as a contractor.

D

All my life, you learn sometimes there's things you always think you can do everything yourself better.

D

Than others, but you learn sometimes that you need to subcontract a specialists. I'm thinking about.

D

Letting my early comments, I'm thinking about subcontracting to commissioner vigliotti and.

D

See if he'll pick up my comments too understood. Thank you. He is the esteemed. So, commissioner,.

A

Gordon, thank you first and foremost wanted to mention that on february 25th at westminster, high.

E

School from 9 a.m to 1 p.m. We have the carroll county history day, which will include a variety.

E

Of students that have participating in national history day contest, this year's topic is frontiers.

E

In history, people places and ideas, it's a great opportunity for the public to go out and see what.

E

Many of our students are working on relating to history as well as interact with displays of local.

E

Organizations and individuals- I would definitely suggest you, take a look at that. If you have the.

E

Time I'd also like to thank. uh Last week we had the carroll county board of elections director.

E

Catherine, berry and john woodley who's a member of the board of elections, and I truly appreciate.

E

The hard work that everyone does over at board of elections uh as the public, we all know you.

E

Go and you vote and you understand the process in some fashion, but I would suggest to anyone if you.

E

Have the time look into what a board of elections does for all of us in this community in the county.

E

I would say they are top-notch without question. I know they had mentioned that several of us had had.

E

Toured the board of elections, and I would strongly recommend that any of any of our commissioners.

E

That have not toured yet, please consider doing so. I'd also like to mention the city of.

E

Westminster just recently received two grants for crosswalks, which is a wonderful situation given.

E

The concerning issues that seem to be happening quite a bit in the municipality with lack of.

E

Driver awareness and the public I've heard from a wide array of constituents of various concerns.

E

Of almost being hit to the public, that's driving, please pay attention and look don't be in a rush.

E

But take a minute um also, you know, hopefully with these grants and maybe some potential ones they'll.

E

See uh additional improvements to these crosswalks and we won't have any injuries or fatalities.

E

Earlier in the week, as mentioned by commissioner vigliotti and commissioner kyler, the board met.

E

With the community college president ball and the entire board, I thought it was a very productive.

E

Meeting discussing the community college, I thought it was wonderfully open with conversation.

E

And I greatly appreciate their willingness to have positive discussions as we move forward.

E

And have conversations with them, it was much appreciated to see that sort of professionalism.

E

Also this week I met with the ark and executive director. Donald rao got a tour over there. I was.

E

Very impressed with all that they do in our community and truly they are an asset without.

E

Question also this week I met with richard turner, the county of the community media.

E

Center's executive director received a tour. I've also been there a number of times in the past as.

E

I think many of my fellow commissioners have. I did learn some very interesting facts, though, that from.

E

A technical infrastructure side, our media center has infrastructure that no other media center has.

E

In the county, so we are above and beyond in that fashion, as we move forward, you know yearly in our.

E

Community, obviously, communication is a factor. The media center has definitely done a wonderful job.

E

In trying to keep the public informed, be it sports, be it news, be it a variety of topics and I think.

E

They're a terrific asset in doing so. Thank you. Thank you, commissioner riley caring. uh Thank you.

F

I'll try to be brief. I first want to thank the emergency services, advisory council or people.

F

Who are not familiar with that organization? It is a we've got 14 fire stations in the county, 14.

F

Chiefs 14 presidents of corporations, hundreds of volunteers and people working in those stations.

F

And the esac is a place where you've got the volunteers represented the stations the union.

F

You've got citizen representatives, the fire chief sits in it, and you've got uh you've, got.

F

Some amazing people running it in the name of rick baker, so I sit on that advisory committee.

F

As the commissioner representative, and I just want to thank each and every one of those individuals.

F

We have doc, we have two doctors on the esac, it's an extraordinary group of people and I want to.

F

Thank them for all the work they're doing, because there's only five of us- and I just mentioned you.

F

Know dozens and dozens of different entities out there and it allows us to make wise decisions. They.

F

Truly are focused and just trying to make the best decisions possible and then bringing hamas to as.

F

Commissioners and everybody knows what's going on in the county, with the transition process.

F

Taking place, it is anything but simple, but the esac is playing such a critical role and I am.

F

So grateful for them and uh I'm always looking forward to those meetings. It's been mentioned.

F

We did meet with the carroll county, the carroll community college board of trustees on tuesday.

F

Morning it was a fantastic meeting and they had everybody on deck, so that was a really impressive.

F

We have all benefited in some way or form or shape from that community college. Whether we've got.

F

Kids, there or we've been there, we went there ourselves or we have friends there.

F

We're trying to continue education, so it's disheartening, and this is my words not theirs.

F

But it's disheartening to see that our community college system in the state is going to. It looks.

F

Like it's going to be another victim of what I like to refer to as state mandates, uh the state.

F

Time to tell counties and municipalities how to run their own governments last week I mentioned.

F

You know the new motto for maryland should be, if you don't like it too bad, because that is.

F

Increasingly the case, the community college is one of those entities. We've already got a.

F

State board of education: that's trying to tell our school board how to run their school system.

F

And in the process enter doing some introducing some draconian bills about what you should be.

F

Teaching kindergartners and first graders about sexuality. We've got a public health commission.

F

Coming down the road to tell our county health department how to run things, it seems like it's.

F

Never ending, I know, there's a lot of consternation about the upcoming budget for the school system.

F

I'm encouraging parents take a good look at maryland blueprint and what it's going to mean.

F

For our camera county public school system that is coming straight out of annapolis,.

F

And if I had a billion dollars, I may not be able to negate some of the real negative effects of.

F

That blueprint coming down the pike so um again I'll continue to speak on this, because I think.

F

It's a disturbing development. It seems to be happening at ever. Increasing pace, we've.

F

Got a fantastic county here I mean we do things right, we're not rich, but we're not we're not poor.

F

We just find ways to do things right, that's what we're all about. We shouldn't be penalized for it.

F

Thank you, okay, uh just a couple things one last week, I think it was thursday the ccea came and saw.

A

Me want to speak, I think there was like five or six of them. We had a very good candid conversation.

A

For about an hour, um you know talking about budget talking about, you know their priorities. Ours.

A

um And you know the the key takeaway from me to them was continue to communicate, continue to be.

A

A part of the process, you know uh same thing with ccps and the board of education as we move forward.

A

um It's not our budget, the five of us up here. It's not the government budget.

A

It's the carroll county budget and we've got to commit ourselves to that.

A

um When I say budget, it's also resources, time, people and money, and the second thing I just.

A

Want to share, especially when it comes to uh people and time and that's uh highlighting.

A

um The sheriff and his department yesterday was uh the school resource officer, uh recognition.

A

Day, I believe um again, like commissioner karen said: nobody does it better than us.

A

And I've shared with other jurisdictions, how they use their sros and how they're seen and.

A

It is so just uplifting when I can walk into a a school and see an officer, a man or woman in in.

A

Blue and standing straight up- and you know being you know the the center of attention for so many.

A

Students um because they want to be around them as opposed to somebody in khakis, in a a polo shirt.

A

That's not how we should uh present ourselves, um so you know sheriff just uh thank you for all. You.

A

Do uh and your team, especially with the sros and recognition, um and also uh the work you did uh and.

A

Your department last week in a very difficult situation where it took a region. You know.

A

um To take care of some nefarious uh issues, you know bad people, don't know boundaries and.

A

The good part is that our sheriff, along with, uh I believe, the police forces in the region.

A

um Have a wonderful way of collaborating that is seamless, that is using their tactics and.

A

Techniques to ensure the safety and security of our community and to bring bad people to.

A

To justice and allowing us to know what goes on the whole time. So thank you and that, and it also.

A

Goes for the men and women uh you know in red and uh as we move forward with our fire ems, you know.

A

um When I ran the installation, 80 percent of my fire calls were outside the fence line, so it's.

A

All about that mutual aid, it's all about that that partnership and uh sheriff you and your.

A

Team have shown that partnership in the region makes us feel safe and secure. You have shown.

A

That partnership with the schools with the sros and uh you know just want to uh to recognize that.

A

um So with that said- and I know you're going to want to say a few words about this, but let me.

A

um Let me pause that for a second: let's get our legislative issues done and.

A

Then bring you up for a couple issues if that's: okay, okay, mike.

G

Good morning morning, commissioner garen, if you think it's bad from where you.

G

Said come with me one day: that's why we have you mike. It's amazing.

G

um Welcome morning good morning, so we are just a little over a month from crossover. That's the next.

G

Big date, so the work on on bills and committee is really kind of just begun. There haven't been many.

G

Bills, passed of any consequence, they've all been more or less technical state related issues, sunset.

G

Reviews that kind of thing so we're going to be getting into some serious stuff here very quickly.

G

um So the governor's agenda has been put forward his bills. uh You know his his agenda was attacking.

G

Child poverty and supporting veterans creating a program of service, so those bills have been.

G

Introduced also, his appointments have been made. I think just about everybody now has been pushed.

G

Through the senate, I think there was some little controversy with the juvenile justice commissioner.

G

Or director, but that that's passed through as well, so he has all of his people or will have.

G

All his people in place very shortly as far as the bills that uh that are directly related to us, the.

G

Public facilities bond wow- that is a formality. Frankly, we still keep a close eye on it, because.

G

Of how critical it is so it it did, get out of uh budget tax yesterday on the senate side and the.

G

House will hear that on the 21st and then the bill that that we put forward late on purchasing and.

G

Increasing the purchasing limit that actually has been dropped at senate bill 897.. It will require.

G

A delegation meeting to put it forward, but it sounds like they'll, be fine with doing that.

G

We we will have to put an amendment in to change the the title of the procurement officer.

G

So, that's not that big of a deal a little bit of good news here and there so the bill.

G

Senate bill 225 that would have required pfas monitoring in in wastewater treatment, has been.

G

Withdrawn and- and I think that was kind of doomed from the start- a lot of technical issues, I think.

G

The methodology hasn't even approved yet by the epa so that, along with we have a new secretary.

G

Of mde, so I think we'll see that come back in some form next year, but it's off the table for for now.

G

A little bit of action on the northeast maryland waste disposal authority dissolution, so that was.

G

In subcommittee, it's in the environment and transportation committee in the house.

G

The environment subcommittee uh looked at that yesterday. He sponsored offered a few amendments.

G

We're glad we got a little bit of our concerns addressed so one that we didn't address.

G

Specifically, but it included the maryland clean energy center in in the analysis and transition.

G

And that's really not appropriate, so that's been moved. uh One amendment did insert maintaining.

G

Stakeholder engagement throughout the process- that was something we thought was important.

G

And another one and I've asked for a copy of the actual amendments, because the uh the subcommittee.

G

Meeting was on zoom, and so you all you know, is what you hear you don't get to see anything.

G

Actually so it sounded like they're going to require the mes to temporarily assume all the.

G

Functions: employees and active contracts during the analysis and then to maintain the assumption.

G

Of those, so it sounds to me like what we suggested is: if they do this, they should bring everything.

G

From from the authority into mes intact- and it sounds like that's what's being proposed, but when.

G

I get those actual amendments and and drill down I'll I'll. Let you know if that is in fact the case.

G

uh Just a couple of quick bills in the education senate, bill 881, so.

G

Retention has been an issue across you know. Just about every workforce. There was there's a program.

G

To provide bonuses to child care providers that would have ended as of fiscal year 23, so this bill.

G

Would extend it another additional two years which hopefully will help with retention there and then.

G

uh House bill 849, which the legislative committee make a legislative committee considered yesterday.

G

Would change the way enforcement is done on school buses? So you know the sacrosanct.

G

Aspect of not passing a school bus with flashing red lights, currently.

G

There are fines associated with with citations there, and this bill would have removed the fines.

G

From the first and second violations, most of the people felt that that was probably inappropriate.

G

That really, the point is to prevent these things from occurring uh beyond beyond the the first.

G

Infractions so so the legislative committee voted to oppose that, and- and this is uh one.

D

Of the things it's so depressing down there, I thought at first this was a county one of the.

D

Counties, local bills for them and that's bad enough. But it's statewide, correct, correct and.

D

I won't say the county, it obviously wasn't carol the same county that wants so much to make sure.

D

You guys in uniform are properly punished. If you blow your nose in the wrong place, think somebody.

D

That commits a crime should only get a warning. I just I don't understand the logic. I truly don't.

D

Yeah it was challenging. There was uh a lot of sentiment in that regard. Oh yeah, yes,.

G

Yeah, it was a very interesting proposition, frank uh and you mentioned uh catherine berry here last.

G

Week and uh we're very fortunate that she is also the legislative liaison for the the boards of.

G

Elections around the state, so she provided me with a number of bills that she believes would have an.

G

Impact on carroll county, she believes that they are probably not going to pass in their current.

G

Construction, but we're still going to keep an eye on them so just quickly house bill 95.

G

Requires some written and oral instructions for election judges to assist the elderly or disabled.

G

It's very prescriptive all the way down to the size of the signs and the language and the signs.

G

That's that's going to be a challenge, there's, obviously a fiscal impact there senate bill 39.

G

uh uh Affiliation so right now you can't if you're unaffiliated, you can't affiliate with a party.

G

Beyond after registration closes, so I think it's 30 days uh before the primary well, this bill would.

G

Now allow you to change affiliation up to the day before the election obviously creates a lot.

G

Of challenges for them they've got a lot on their plate and they keep getting their plate loaded up.

G

House bill 22 has to do with signature requirements on absentee ballots. Would.

G

Disallow the counting of an absentee ballot lacking your signature, and it requires the.

G

Board to check each signature cross check it with with registration records and then house.

G

Bill 35 is uh again voter id, which is not going to pass. The legislatures just seems to be dead, set.

G

Against that it doesn't, it doesn't require id, it just adds government issued id as another way to.

G

Check it, it leaves in place asking someone their, I think, their birthday and their dress, but it.

G

Also adds that as another aspect, but I don't see that moving forward at all house bill, 41 curbside.

G

Voting apparently, there are over 20 states that allow curbside voting. So essentially it's it's.

G

Really for disabled people and and pregnant women pregnant people, depending on your perspective,.

G

You can laugh at that. I've been there too long.

A

It's terrible, isn't it just keep going? You have to adopt the language, but um so this is interesting.

G

Because there's no check for this, you, the users, you know you self-identify, as a disabled person,.

G

And so it requires the the board to set up some process where people can notify and advance that.

G

They'll be coming, and someone has to get to them relatively quickly and assist them with voting.

G

um You can see how challenging that would be you, and this has to be done at each.

G

Early voting center and then for the general election would have to be done at one location.

G

And then the last one in senate bill 339 has to do with recounts.

G

I think the local board has to take some actions that again are challenging to them and and will.

G

Have an impact so I'll be following those pretty closely with her make sure that we're covered.

G

There and then lastly uh senate bill 45. I think the sheriff would probably be happy to see this.

G

This bill would have would have established a a wide range of sort of protected classes on inmates.

G

And then prescribed separate housing for them and you can see the challenge, particularly for the.

G

Smaller rural counties that have smaller facilities that that's just a real real.

G

Challenge to provide this, this kind of separate housing, so that's been withdrawn by the sponsor.

G

And senate bill 650. this one we're glad to see our emergency management people and public works.

G

People very happy to see it. It provides funding for local governments and and citizens when there.

G

Is a disaster declared, but it applies when the state declares it, but when it's not a federal.

G

Declaration so that will be funded with 20 million at the start of each fiscal year. So that's, I think.

G

That's something we can be happy about and again I've provided you with the list of bills that.

G

The legislative committee looked at yesterday and some of these most of these positions go.

G

Through as they are, but from time to time, some of these get changed after the discussions. So I.

G

Haven't indicated, I think at least one or two of these probably changed before they went through.

D

A question that um that, obviously I don't understand, but I think everybody might like.

D

To hear at some point in time, with most of these bills, they come out with what the real cost is.

D

Yes, what's the timing of that is that um you know when does that happen and and that what made me.

D

Think of it that changes, sometimes a stance on something when you see who's paying for it and.

D

How much right the fiscal, the fiscal notes will typically come out as quickly as they can when.

G

When dls sends out to various counties, they don't send it out to every county, but they'll send out.

G

To to various counties, to get the information on the bill back and then they included in a.

G

Formal fiscal note: um they get attached on the website as soon as they're available. So we can.

G

Get in there and see what now they won't be down to the county level. They'll be state.

G

Government, private business and local government so you'll see what it costs the local governments.

G

Collectively but the committee will always have the fiscal note when they're hearing the bill.

G

So I can provide you fiscal notes as they're available for any bill that you're interested.

G

In and actually we can, I can add these as they're available to the ones that I bring to you sure and.

D

I think maybe not everyone, but the ones that are the more the significant ones right right.

G

There are some big ones, no question. Okay, any other uh comments, good good question. Thank you very.

F

Much mike again, uh you know if you're, if you're somebody who's considered concerned with election.

F

Integrity, you probably need to be paying attention to some of these election bills, but particularly.

F

In what hb114 hp, 35 and 41 I mean, if you had to handicap those, I would I'm willing to guess they.

F

Probably pass is that what 35 probably not well, it's yeah 30 yeah 35! No, that one's deal right.

F

41, I I'm not so sure the curbside voting yeah. I I'm not so sure about that.

G

um But that I'm going to keep an eye on that because that's really a challenge.

F

I don't know how we're supposed to yeah yeah, I mean you, you heard from her last week exactly.

G

You know the kind of challenging resource she's got issue, they just keep piling it.

G

On and pilots a little every year, it's about how did we ever conduct elections in one day.

F

It's amazing start to finish, but you know I and point of personal privilege on this.

G

Curbside voting I mean that's, that's why absentee voting was expanded to the extent it has been.

G

I don't know what are we going to go to everybody's house now? Okay,.

A

What else that's all I have for you? Okay, any other questions comments. Thank you so much thank.

A

You very much sheriff one. You come on up here and let's talk about cortego health and wellness, app.

A

uh And if you'd like to yeah whatever, is it with a couple comments, so um lieutenant phil lawrence.

H

Is here um don't worry, I uh so phil oversees the safe schools unit for me. So um he's the.

H

Commander of it, phil's got two very important jobs he's also my swat team commander and you.

H

Mentioned that there were some things regionally that happened last week, phil was sent over to.

H

Baltimore county with his team, which a number of them were actually sros, so we were then having to.

H

Backfill our sros, because they they would have to come out of the schools and run with phil east to.

H

Baltimore county police officers were shot. The first um was shot during a call that a father.

H

Had called in saying his son was suicidal and the officers got into the house and random shots rang.

H

Out one of the officers was hit he has since been released, and that began a massive search.

H

For the suspect- and he was on the loose from that point, we have such a wonderful relationship with.

H

Baltimore county and the region police departments, when things like this happen, it takes literally.

H

An army to come help them and so we're one of the first baltimore county makes asks for our.

H

Team to come down and assist with with searching for that individual, so phil takes the team down.

H

There and, as you know uh several hours later and into the next day, another police officer was shot.

H

um How he survived, I don't know um he is still in very bad shape, but it does appear as though.

H

He will survive that that incident then took off from there and went up into harford county where.

H

The individual was um was stop sticked by harford county sheriff's office. They did a wonderful job.

H

With a number of teams to to pin that fellow down and and take him into custody without any shots,.

H

Being fired when, when what took place earlier was remarkable, so phil really does a great job. For me.

H

He's got two big responsibilities: the schools and and our swat team, and last week he really.

H

um Got worked over because we had an incident at at northwest middle, albeit it wasn't on the campus.

H

But uh right if you'd have fallen down, you'd hit the campus when, when this incident happened,.

H

um And you're right, the school resource officers do a wonderful job and, and I want to recognize.

H

Them they're, not here it's school today, so they got to be in the schools, phil phil's, the.

H

Only one I could pull out of the schools, but um they do a wonderful job sergeant sneddon's over.

H

At gateway, corporal jeremy, holland is over at the tech center. Corporal rec scots over at east.

H

Middle and as I walk around the county, paul cox is up at northwest. um Clint cromwell is over at.

H

Francis scott key high school, when you go to the northern part of the county, kalbar gets.

H

Over at manchester valley, very popular guy at manchester clint cromwell's more popular than.

H

Bargat he says cromwell's a graduate of fsk and is now back there as you come to the center part.

H

Of the county shanita blackwell's at winners mill, pete dragster, is over at westminster, high.

H

um Again, rex is at at east middle as you go to the southern part of the county. John welty is over at.

H

Oklahoma, road, middle school, jessica, snyder, who is actually the face of our organization right now,.

H

You see her on the billboards as you navigate around the counties at liberty, high school.

H

um As you go, a little further west kyle merson's over at south carroll, high school and helping down.

H

South is brian puff, he's down at that bound area and and help service those schools and century.

H

ah Demont, how can I can forget to mind um he owns century high school demond harvey is at.

H

At century high school- and um I can throw his face out every month and and get thousands of comments.

H

On him he's such a good good guy and they all do just spectacular work, and I think the comment was.

H

That they do more than just protect the lives of the the kids there and that's their primary.

H

Responsibility don't get me wrong, but they are really a part of the fabric of each school. That.

H

They that they go to and and work out of and and do just absolutely remarkable work and we make.

H

Sure that we put the right people at the right school based on the personality of the deputy, the.

H

Personality of the school- and I will mention that scott lavender is the principal out at northwest.

H

And when that incident happened out there, paul cox happened to be on the campus when it happened. It.

H

Was at dismissal, and so um they did a wonderful job. They absolutely did a wonderful job. The the.

H

Students were actually leaving the school, the pathway, that would uh that the majority I think.

H

Scott tells me that there's about 200 kids that walk to that school, they would have been going.

H

Out towards east baltimore street on that path and a clear sight from the school um any it could have.

H

Gone really really bad, but they did a wonderful job, throwing all their protocols into place and.

H

Getting the kids back on onto the property and into the buses and one of the bus patrol things.

H

That we'll discuss after cortico kind of came into play in this particular incident. Some of.

H

The technology that bus patrol provided us came into play and I've got mike hardesty here from.

H

From carroll county public schools and we'll explain how that that really worked out for.

H

Us with knowing where our buses were and being able to communicate when an incident like that.

H

Took off I'll tell you uh it's green, this is what needs to be in the paper. This is the information.

A

That needs to be shared the ability to collaborate, the ability to fund appropriately the ability to.

A

um To work seamlessly, you know within the community we say it, nobody knows.

A

Carroll county, better than carroll county ends, and that's what this is all about.

A

um So just I'm going to open up for my colleagues but lieutenant. Let me give you a coin on behalf of.

A

Your sros, so let me say this: you guys didn't wait by the way for legislation to take place in order.

H

To fund the sros, the previous board funded sros, regardless of what was coming out of the state. So.

H

You guys were at the forefront of putting these men and women in a very diverse group of men and.

H

Women in our in our schools, so um you didn't, you didn't mess around with it, which was which was a.

H

Good idea, and then you also mentioned um we look like this every day when we go in, um we, we don't.

H

Dress down when something happens like northwest middle we've got to be ready to fight and we've.

H

Got to have the tools that are needed to fight and protect the the students and staff at each school.

H

And I will not allow them to wear anything other than what I'm wearing and what phil has on and.

H

What the deputies wear in and out of the schools dressing down to look softer, doesn't wash with.

H

Me at all, I won't have that. I agree uh anyone and I think that's that's so great, because we've got.

D

So many kids getting very comfortable with somebody in full uniform and I I think that's.

D

A giant step for these kids, but then the turn side of that which we've seen a little bit at.

D

At carnivals, at other events, when an sro who's out in the community in plain clothes, kids recognize.

D

Him or her and run up to him and talk to them. It's it's impressive. I was walking around with.

H

Deputy harvey I think, last year and he literally walks down the hallways like this, and even the.

H

Teachers come out and high five him and a girl walked up to us, and she saw me in the uniform and.

H

The stars in the bars and that means means nothing to them and the girl says do is harvey one of your.

H

Deputies does do you work for harvey and I thought well. You know what yeah I kind of do yeah. I do so.

H

He's the sheriff of century high, I think the other important part of it too, and going off what.

B

Commissioner, kyler has said, and what commissioner rossing has said is that you know long before I.

B

Was in this position, I was hearing positive things about the sro program: nothing but positive things.

B

And you know, in addition to getting you know, kids used to authority getting them used to dealing.

B

With law enforcement right in a very positive way, uh you know it helps to to change a socio-cultural.

B

Reality I mean we're dealing with with a with such a disgusting anti-police mentality,.

B

Nationally, right now and so anywhere that we are able to do good and to to back law enforcement is.

B

Incredibly important- and I certainly am going to continue to to support the sro program.

B

um Because again, you know you're you're, changing hearts and minds and you really.

B

Are creating the groundswell conditions for a change about a national mentality.

B

And I cannot thank you guys enough for doing that. Appreciate that and and one last comment.

D

You initiated it well before you had to and and that's super, but as nationwide tragedies.

D

Or other things happen that you think a change is warranted. That happens so quickly and, and you.

D

Know the program's always adjusting and it's a great program. It doesn't have to adjust much but.

D

When necessary, you take care of it. We do and we've seen that um and I rely on phil. I rely on curtis.

H

Pierce from the school security side to to help us with making those adjustments and issues that.

H

May be going out going on at a particular school that may need more attention by us and and that.

H

That process is work, and the other part of it, too, is just knowing that there's someone in the.

B

Schools who will be able to protect the students immediately- god forbid, something ever happens.

A

Okay, anything else I just want to make the comment along with the fellow commissioners.

E

Thank you all for what you do in law enforcement. I know some days it's not as appreciated by some.

E

But we all greatly appreciate it. um I will share one little fun tidbit from a couple years ago,.

E

uh To the sheriff's point you know you all are in uniform uh had a dear friend that her young.

E

Son at the time was uh very enamored, with law enforcement, very young for young age, and uh there.

E

Was a deputy someplace and uh it was near the house, so he you know just happened to be in the.

E

Area was nothing going on, but a young man had to go in his house in the house and get his his hat.

E

And his badge because he wanted to go out and and talk to the deputy. So I know there's days that you.

E

Have people that are less than pleasant to deal with, but I can tell you there's definitely youth.

E

That looks up to you and appreciates all that you do so. I just want to say thank you appreciate it.

A

um And I have a good mornings here. I have a an agenda item before we get into it. Okay,.

I

Good morning, commissioner, good morning good morning back to work, I suppose, okay, um the.

I

Board previously approved grant funding for the carroll county sheriff's office to pay courtico.

I

Incorporated to provide a customized mobile health and wellness app for the agency, this program began.

I

In 2021 and we are now requesting your approval to renew the annual subscription cost of thirty.

I

Thousand dollars the subscription fee covers the licensing, the maintenance and the ongoing updates.

I

And the unlimited use by carroll county sheriff's office personnel, this amount is covered by an.

I

Awarded grant and has been approved by the budget office and no additional funds should be necessary.

I

And I'll turn it over to the sheriffs and vicki. If you have any questions, so you guys approved this.

H

um Last year, and and it is an app that's on all of the deputies- phones, including mine and.

H

They have access to the app and it does uh goes the gamut of of resources for wellness to tips.

H

To down to clergy, that's what's needed other resources on the app, so we've found a lot of.

H

Benefits from from that particular app, and it is a grant funded program. Okay, is there any value in.

A

Doing multi-year or no you can't, I don't know, I don't think we can. I think that's something that.

H

Comes out of I believe I have asked in the past. I will definitely check again. I think in the past.

J

The reason is, it has moved between different grants um with any grant. They never know, but.

J

I can tell you the grant that it is in now. There is supposed to be additional funding for the next.

J

Few years, so that may be an opportunity to now go back and ask just check into it absolutely.

A

Okay is this: uh is it scalable if at some point we decided do we want it to extend its use to.

F

Firefighter ems or any, is it, is it even applicable, or is it more designed for law enforcement.

H

It's a good question, um I would say there would be additional items to add.

J

um I would say in a public safety concept because of mental health and wellness. It is designed I'm.

J

Sure for some of the features for law enforcement, but it obviously overlaps um we'd, have to see. I.

H

That's something we could explore, commissioner, I don't think that's a bad idea as the fire.

H

Department gets bigger and broader they're going to use the same resources in a lot of ways that.

H

We are crossing over, so it's a good question, it's something we never even thought about, but but I would appreciate it. I would appreciate that I think yeah that'd be thank you. Foreign.

A

Motion I move that the board of commissioners approved the annual subscription cost of thirty.

E

Thousand dollars to cortico inc to maintain the health and wellness law enforcement app for the.

E

Sheriff's office, second, okay, any discussion on this one seen here: none all in favor.

A

Aye aye: okay: let's talk about uh bus patrol program um phil! If you want to come up.

H

Mr hardesty, thanks maureen, if you're okay, thank you, I think chris do. I have access to.

H

H

Running that for me phil sure, so um I got a request about a month ago to go over the.

H

Bus patrol program, um I created a powerpoint presentation that the lieutenant lawrence will.

H

Walk through lieutenant lawrence oversees that sergeant russ rangers here um he's got all the.

H

The details, because he primarily with his group, are looking at the citations that come in daily.

H

And has a lot of the intricacies and then, of course, mike hardesty with the is the director of.

H

Transportation for carroll, county public schools, so any question that needs to be answered. I I.

H

Think we'll we'll be able to get it answered um so the first slide's the law um and and.

H

We put out an awful lot annually when it comes to public service. Announcements with this is the law.

H

When you come up on a school bus, and so we we try and target it, obviously, in in august and around.

H

The time that folks know that buses are going to come back out on the road and I'll do public.

H

Service announcements on tv, cable, tv, uh the radio, whatever whatever is possible in order to make.

H

Sure people understand what the responsibility is when they come up on a bus with that being said,.

H

And I don't want to be brutal about this, but it is not my responsibility to teach people how to drive.

H

It is the responsibility of the person driving that vehicle to understand what the law is when.

H

They come up on a stop sign or or a big yellow bus that is taught very early and it's something.

H

When, in doubt, you should stop, and so there's the transportation article that deals with it.

H

The biggest issue always tends to be a divided highway or a roadway that has a median strip a.

H

Good example would be route 26 in eldersburg. It's got a it's got a it's divided in the center. There.

H

For a turn lane, but it doesn't have an actual barrier like a jersey wall and that always seems.

H

To be ambiguous for people, should I stop? Should I not stop, and so we try and put as much education.

H

As we can, when it comes to the law out there, but at the end of the day, this responsibility of the.

H

Person driving in the vehicle and I'll show you an example of something like this as we as we go.

H

Along I'll show you a video where that takes place, so the contract itself kind of the way it came.

H

About uh the the board of education approached me, they wanted to go to this system or a system that.

H

Was like it in order for the entire system to be put into the to the buses there needed to be.

H

Cooperation between law enforcement, carroll, county public schools and then, of course, the board board.

H

Of commissioners, so we went in, we entered into a contractor carroll county public schools did.

H

um In in june of 2020 and the first violation for the bus arms started september, 1st 2020 and so bus.

H

Patrol um at no cost to carroll county at all, to the public school system or to the board of.

H

Commissioners, upfitted every single bus in in the board of education's fleet with this technology.

H

When mike and I were starting to look at it at this- and I think mr guthrie was on board, then.

H

There was, there were companies that were coming in, that wanted to do a sampling of school buses.

H

They wanted to do 50 or 75 buses, and really it wasn't adequate for us. So so we didn't want to.

H

Do anything that didn't have every single bus, upfitted and- and there was a reason for that.

H

Because the technology on that bus isn't just for the stop arm systems, there's other things.

H

That mr hardesty and his staff, including mine, benefit from and I'll explain that as we as.

H

We move on so 307, buses are currently equipped with the technology and that fluctuates annually.

H

According to what mr hardesty and his staff needs out there, um so there's a number of cameras on.

H

There and and multiple cameras on the the most um noticeable camera would be the one that runs.

H

Along the driver's side, that kind of kind of runs the contour of the bus and those are the primary.

H

Cameras that pick up the school bus violation. It also has gps system for fleet tracking and then.

H

There's first net wireless communications: it's a platform, so they have two-way communications and.

H

The reason I say that that was that is probably as beneficial as any part of this entire system.

H

Is because, last week mr hardesty is able to communicate immediately with the buses that.

H

Are going to northwest whether to divert them and keep them away from the school through two-way.

H

Communication or through the gps system, or to get them to the school faster so that we can evacuate.

H

It and move them to another location, or he could divert other bus buses to northwest middle so that.

H

We could get take them to a staging location if, if buses couldn't get on the compound, it.

H

This system is just really remarkable and the ability to be to communicate previous.

H

There could be an incident that takes place out on the streets in carroll county with the bus and.

H

The ability to find that bus could be could be challenging. Now we know exactly where the bus is.

H

And we can respond to any incident that may takes place on the bus. It could also be a weather event.

H

And mr hardesty can relocate those buses based on the gps locations and the two-way communications.

H

With the bus, so there's a lot of value in the total package of the equipment, but in order for.

H

The stop arms to be a part of the system you have to have the total package within within the system.

H

um It's a five-year contract, um so this is the this is the um I guess, the money piece of it. So so.

H

We didn't pay any money to to offer any of these buses and we don't pay any money for monthly fees.

H

For technology fees, so the equipment's one thing that went into these buses and then the technology.

H

Fees of cloud-based storage of folks reviewing citations on their end, the technology for gps.

H

Locations everything that goes into that bus costs about a hundred and thirty eight thousand.

H

Monthly um and and you can do the math well mike- and I looked at it it's about.

H

um Eight and a half million dollars in technology for a five-year period. um It's not cheap. So the.

H

Initial cost of the technology that went into the bus and then the the monitoring fees and all the.

H

Fees that go associated with managing that technology costs about a hundred and thirty.

H

Thousand dollars a month for all the buses in the fleet um so kind of I'll give you the enforcement.

H

Statistics we launched this in 2020 and during the pandemic and and nobody could have predicted.

H

And it was not the best time, but nonetheless it was launched during that time. 152 citations were.

H

Issued in 2020 and then you can see the numbers as they go up in 2021 and now in 2022, 7215.

H

um So when we look at the enforcement statistics and and start looking at violations.

H

um At the end of 2022, the sheriff's office has viewed 12 900 violations with an overall rating.

H

Of 72.9 percent, so we we do not approve every citation that comes through here. Bus patrol.

H

Sends us what the law says is a violation. It is our responsibility and my staff's responsibility.

H

To go through each individual citation and make a determination whether that was a legitimate.

H

Violation in order to process, if we sign off on that- and we have 10 days- I think in.

H

Another slido it'll say we have 10 days from the time that that citation shows up in our.

H

System to approve or disapprove the citation if we approve it, then bus patrol sends that citation.

H

So that it gets a district court hearing, if, if that's what they choose, but it then sends the.

H

Citation to the owner of the vehicle, um not the particular driver, it's a civil violation, so.

H

72.9 percent and as we started talking about this uh lieutenant lawrence and I started.

H

Looking around what the other counties that have bus patrol or systems like this and we're pretty.

H

Consistent with um the other counties when it comes to uh the approval rate or disapproval,.

H

Rate of of citations, we run, we run pretty close to to what what goes on regionally.

H

um Less than three percent repeat offenders, so there's a lot of the is this working are.

H

We changing driving behaviors, so the recidivism rate for folks that are being stopped in this.

H

County is less than three percent. um What we do see from time to time are.

H

um For example, enterprise rental cars vehicles that are that are being leased where a liability.

H

Would have to be transferred, so we do see a number of them where people think that they're.

H

Exalted their responsibility because they're in a rental vehicle and they're not and they sign lease.

H

Agreements that say, if you don't pay the citation, then we're just going to charge your credit card.

H

So those are some things that are a little quirky to come through, but bus patrol is pretty good at.

H

Figuring those out- and we can gather statistics on on those issues um and that's just another.

H

Another slide on enforcement, so we this is legislated. um There was friendly legislation.

H

It needed to be to be applied for and and sought before this program took place. Legislation allows.

H

Us to to set fines um in this case we set to find a 250. We could have set it to 500, I believe, or.

H

Somewhere to in in that realm- and just so you understand- this is a civil violation that has.

H

No points attached to it if one of my deputies were witnessing the same violation, it would be.

H

520 and three points assessed to the driver of the vehicle themselves, so there's a significant.

H

Difference in in the the amount of money and and the fines when an individual when we process an.

H

Individual gets a citation, this is what they get and then there is the ability to view real-time.

H

Video not real time but video of the actual infraction so they can go on and see exactly.

H

um What they did or who was in the vehicle at the time um and and track it down, but uh they.

H

Give several different images still still photos and then video of the actual violation itself.

H

And then this is a um this is over on john street.

H

Upper left is the yellow lights they've been on for a while upper left is the red lights.

H

They come on immediately, stop sign out, kids are coming on and that vehicle comes straight through.

H

That is a typical violation that we see regularly um I'll show it to you again the reason that the.

H

uh The upper left hand really helps us out, because I can tell you, when the bus driver initiates the.

H

Yellow lights to start warning people and then the bus driver stops signs come out.

H

And then and then the that is just an obvious, clear violation and that's what we see.

H

um More than not that's what we see um the the stop arms that come out, the stop signs.

H

That come out to the side of the bus. That's not that's not what the transportation article talks.

H

About the transportation article talks about the the red lights that are coming on the front.

H

And the back of the bus um they come on instantly once the the driver throws them on the stop arms.

H

Are hydraulic and they take they stop? The sign itself is hydraulic, and that takes a second to.

H

Get out sometimes we get people that will argue well, the stop sign wasn't completely out. We can.

H

See exactly where you're at when that, when those red lights come on and how long the caution lights.

H

Were on and mike and his staff do a wonderful job within service, educating school bus drivers.

H

um On on exactly what they should be doing, there's a lot of people that'll come in and say.

H

um Well, the bus driver was waving me on, um and, and that does happen periodically, if that does.

H

Happen it should be done under caution, not not red light, because once the red lights come on.

H

And something pass, is it it's it's clicking and it's writing it's sending citations to us. So we.

H

We do work with mike and his staff regularly and the school bus drivers to make sure that they.

H

Understand how the system works, he has new bus drivers every year that he's got to go through.

H

Not unlike I've got new police officers that I've got to to train and and get better, but we.

H

Work closely and understand the citations that are coming through to make sure that we're not.

H

Sending over citations to the court system that we don't believe are our citations that can be.

H

Can be won in court? um We do have a number of folks that go to court of the amount of.

H

Citations that I I sent, I I told you about four percent of the violators request court.

H

um 138 of those paid before they even got to court um and then the overwhelming majority.

H

Were found uh guilty um and 25 violators were found not guilty and we learned that early on.

H

um Specifically, there's two district court judges periodically there's visiting judges that come.

H

In and out of the the courthouses but judge lewis and judge dan's primarily see these citations and.

H

A lot of it is learning um what is acceptable to them when it comes to what they believe is.

H

A is an obvious infraction or an obvious uh violation of the law and so working through.

H

The district courts and understanding that and being able to supply them with the exact video.

H

um And then 10 were a transfer liability, which was the least court. The lease companies.

H

um And here's here's just another statistical data, they can vary the violations, they don't.

H

Have to go with our 250. if you, if you just pay the violation out before you, go to court.

H

That's one thing: they can increase it if they choose to. Sometimes they do.

H

Based on the video that they see and it causes them to, do it a a little higher.

H

Citation fee and then um the last is just an another overview of the technology. What we're.

H

Paying annually- and I will tell you that there is a 1.85 million dollar deficit right now in the.

H

Technology fee that we will never catch up with and you scratch your head at that and here's the.

H

Reason we don't write or approve enough citations for it to keep up with the the technology fee.

H

Again, the amount of equipment that was installed and then the then the monthly fees in order to.

H

Maintain that equipment and the technology we just simply aren't keeping up with that and and.

H

And that's a mike hardesty cindy mccabe issue that they are working with with my staff on, but um that.

H

This is a valuable valuable system, and so what we feel that that it needs to be there. The bus patrol.

H

Is working with us on that on that technology fee? One of the questions I get often is: do I have the.

H

Staff to do this, um we we fill my staff. That's behind me. Look at student safety from door to door.

H

um From the time I get on a bus, or maybe even standing outside at a bus, stop while they're.

H

In school and from the time we drop them back off at their home this, this bus patrol plays a.

H

A key role in making sure that there's a lot of safety getting them back and forth and then the.

H

Sros play a key role once they get there, so we were willing to take on the burden. The second.

H

That it happened knowing that that we would not be compensated so early in the in the project so kind.

H

Of the way it works is that if the technology fee, the 138 thousand dollars a month, was met, anything.

H

Over that hundred and thirty eight thousand dollars would then have a profit sharing to.

H

It 60 40 profit sharing, I think, 60 our office 40 bus patrol board of education got nothing.

H

um But that that fee has not been met, so we we aren't even close to that. So.

H

um This was never about making money ever. I knew we weren't going to make money. I knew the return.

H

On the investment, wasn't going to be immediate or probably even the time that I was sheriff.

H

um But it didn't matter to us, we wanted to make sure that um we we were 360 when it came to.

H

Student safety- and this plays a key role in that one. Last, for instance, we use bus patrol in the.

H

Northern part of the county, I think it was back around thanksgiving a few years ago when we had.

H

A pipe bomb that was mailed to an individual's house believe it or not, bus patrol and a school.

H

Bus picked up on one of the multi-camers that they have that vehicle leaving leaving the area. So we.

H

Do use and we will call mike's crew and and curtis to to see if there's video footage that we can use.

H

That that it may be around the bus, not necessarily involving the bus that help us solve crime, so over.

H

All we we like the system, the the issue is going to be for mr hardesty and and uh cindy.

H

To to figure out the the contractual part of it, but we want it, we like it we're capable of.

H

Handling the the work that comes in, I don't need any more resources to do it and if there's some.

H

Profit at the end of it great we've already said it. There's profit that comes to my office, that'll.

H

Be used for school safety, I'm not used to hearing that. I don't need any more resources to do it. I.

K

I just I'm just no, let me I've already got your wallet. I got that before you even sat down just.

A

Want to let that sink in uh wow, you just play that as a container. That is a first I'll, be in.

H

Next week, so just clear your mind, I don't need any more resources. Okay, um thank you. So much for the.

A

uh For the briefing any uh comments, questions I'd like to make a comment, um a couple comments, one. I.

D

Loved all the percentages, I was wondering about how many try to go to court again. This makes it.

D

More idiotic that somebody thinks they should get a warning first time when, when you see the levels.

D

That this go through before somebody gets a fine. um The other thing I wanted to mention.

D

And you alluded to it a little bit, but another group that's been cooperating throughout this.

D

Entire process has been the bus contractors and the drivers this. This meant early on equipment.

D

Had to be installed in their buses and and uh you know, they needed training and and everybody.

D

Worked together to make that happen, and it's you know I look at it. You know if the county.

D

Came to me and said: oh, we need to install this on your dash because you're a commissioner I'd.

D

Throw a fit- and you know everybody worked together- you throw a fit, never never.

D

um But they all work together and I'm sure there's some pushback and sure there were some training.

D

Issues but they've cooperated in this too, and I think I think they're seeing now the benefit to it.

H

I mean mike organized all this and we used the ag center to you know to run everything through.

H

So please yeah. uh Thank you, commissioner. Good morning, commissioners um yeah we're we're very.

L

Pleased with the overall uh bus patrol contract, obviously there's some things to work out with.

L

The technology fees and one of the things that really hurt us in terms of what we uh owe them.

L

Still according to the contract, but I should make the point: we really don't owe them anything at the.

L

End of the contract, we are free and cleared to walk away without owing them anything despite.

L

um You know what we, what we see is a technology deficit right now, but we we lost a whole year. The.

L

Contract was initiated in june of 2020 and we lost the whole year with covid and and schools not not.

L

Starting as as normal uh and even into the 21 year, we didn't see the number of motorists on the road.

L

That you would normally see, but even while those buses were parked during that year, we were still.

H

Racking up the technology fee, they they yeah still right. So so we are.

L

uh Bus patrol is very interested in in renegotiating the terms, and we are too.

L

um So we have a meeting with them actually next week, which might give us a better opportunity.

L

For some revenue share, even though, as as sheriff louise said, we didn't get into this looking for.

L

Any money, the school system never wanted any money in this, but I want to make sure that the sheriff.

L

Is taken care of for his administrative costs in some fashion? Obviously, the whole program from bus.

L

Patrol standpoint, or our standpoint hinges on the sheriff and they're they're uh their.

L

Work with this and making sure that the tickets are prosecuted, you know, prior to the bus patrol.

L

Agreement we participated every year for about a 12-year period, uh statewide with a one-day.

L

Snapshot of violations of stop arm violations um and and our average, as reported by bus drivers,.

L

Was about 92 on that one day, look at things and across the state and across the country. It's a.

L

Tremendous problem with uh motorists violating the law, so we knew it was a serious problem and.

L

So bus patrol you know assures us that wherever buses go and we have 9 000 bus stops roughly.

L

Every day, um so you know we're assured that these cameras are on every single bus and we have the.

L

Technology that we need for safety and security purposes with live gps and uh interior cameras.

L

um And our push to talk communication devices, as sheriff that we said, are just just such an.

L

Improvement over what we had, which was a hodgepodge of cell phones. So we can get a.

L

Message out to all the entire fleet or any portion of the fleet, any type of emergency that arises as.

L

Chair after we said, with northwest middle last week, was invaluable to have that technology.

H

There are times we talked about this this morning, where we notice, maybe bus, stops or intersections.

H

That may be a high frequency and just an unusual, on-ramp or off-ramp and and so phil or the guys.

H

Will communicate with mike and and they'll evaluate a particular stop if it if it can be.

H

Moved it is, if it can't be, then that's just that's just how it is, but we notice and communicate back.

H

And forth with bike in the staff and bus patrol on some of those issues, so it isn't this it's hard.

H

And fast, this is how it is it's it's a system that we we talk about regularly and try and massage. If.

H

We need to, and and you mentioned all the cameras- and I don't know how much sometimes with security.

D

You don't want to bear your soul to the world, but how valuable are the cameras inside the bus.

D

Extremely valuable, commissioner, um almost every day at least one school is requesting.

L

Video based upon something that happened on the bus, um so um you know it it's a tremendous.

L

Tremendous amount of requests that come in for interior camera video and I think you you're.

H

Asking a question because it's you know the answer and they're they're extremely valuable.

H

um There's things that that substantiate and there's things that exonerate um allegations.

H

That take place, and so the video inside of those those buses are extremely extremely valuable.

A

Okay, any other questions comments. Thoughts. Can I ask you a quick question, I'm just curious. I.

C

Saw this exact same thing on route 26 just a couple weeks ago, so the bus was stopped. Picking.

C

Up children on the north side of 26, it was going westbound and- um and I was a couple cars behind.

C

It and um a car just pulled out from in front of me and went into the yeah um suicide lane.

C

And went around them now he was he or she was two or three lanes away and just curious would.

C

The cameras actually pick that up. It does well enough to identify good and the video to it. Yeah.

H

And that is that we talked about 26 this morning I mean there's not that many four-lane roads in the.

H

County, so it's pretty 140 um once you get uh west of of you know, westminster is, is tulane but 140.

H

Has a barrier- and we don't have many stops there, but there are stops along 26, I'm 32 going south.

H

um Towards howard, county and and but that do not have they have the center lane, but they don't have.

H

A barrier and that's the education piece, but you have got to stop and those cameras will pick you.

H

Up and the video is, you saw the video it's pretty sophisticated, even if it's a car that comes right.

H

By the bus or if it's several lanes over it'll pick it up for us and give us the the information.

M

Thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you very much. Thank you.

A

Okay, let's move on uh mystical one! You come on up here with ms yates.

A

And I think paul you come up as well told about the annual plan for fiscal year. 2023.

A

Carroll county bureau of housing to be displayed for public comment for a 45-day period.

A

And it's based on federal regulation, but I'm not going to get into that.

E

Morning, thank you. Okay, thanks, yeah no kidding.

B

Thank you very much good morning. Okay, okay, all right, good morning, commissioners, good.

B

Morning, good morning, I'm joined this morning by danielle yates she's, our bureau chief of housing.

N

And community development and then also paul moffett, he is our manager of our housing program.

N

um You as the board of county commissioners serve as our governing body of our public housing.

N

Authority and our annual plan that we're required to review and that's why we're here before you.

N

Today, each year we look at some of the the changes that could be made to our plan to make us a better.

N

Housing authority to be more reflective of how we're actually operating our housing authority.

N

um And this year is no different. We have, throughout the past year, come up with some.

N

Some different differences in the program implemented some changes and we want to.

N

Reflect those in our our annual plan so this morning, I'm here with danielle who's going to.

N

Walk us through some of those changes, but just to give you some statistics we currently have.

N

796 housing choice, vouchers of those vouchers. We have some different types of vouchers, so 100.

N

Of those are non-elderly disabled vouchers, 33 are family unification program vouchers.

N

15 of those are our hud bash vouchers. Our veterans, affairs, supportive housing.

N

Vouchers, 119 are our mainstream vouchers and 529 of those are tenant-based rental vouchers.

N

um The process that we're initiating here today with you will formalize the recommended changes.

N

And allow the public to comment and review the changes that we are making today. So I'm going to.

N

Turn this over to danielle to walk us through. We have five different changes, we're recommending and.

N

If you have questions you can either hold them till the end or ask away as we're presenting.

N

Go ahead danielle so good morning, commissioners, as celine noted we're here to discuss the changes.

O

To our fiscal year 23 annual plan, there are five adjustments that we have recommended our first.

O

Can be found in chapter four, which is applications waiting list and tenant selection. We have made a.

O

An adjustment to our special admissions selection. We have adjusted the number of referrals that we.

O

Receive from our family shelter from serving two households annually to five and we have designated.

O

Five vouchers, as part of our move on strategy for our disconnected rapid re-housing, youth.

O

We have also made an adjustment in chapter 12, which is moves with continued assistance and.

O

Portability, we have adjusted language to restrict porting, which is the process of moving from one.

O

Public housing authority's jurisdiction to another households will not be permitted.

O

To exercise portability within the first year of tenancy when leasing up with our housing authority.

O

Our final adjustments can be found in chapter 15, which is program integrity. We have adjusted the.

O

Maximum length of time that a repeat repayment agreement can be used to up to 36 months.

O

Previously, the maximum length was 24 months or two years. We have also attempted to more clearly.

O

Identify when a repayment agreement is considered in default, we have done this by indicating that.

O

If a payment is not made within the last working day of the month, it will be considered, missed and.

O

If there are three missed periods in a 12-month period in total, this will place that repayment.

O

Agreement into default for further action and collection are there any other questions you.

O

May have, or can we clarify some of the changes that we're making here? Are there any questions.

A

I did want to add just a little detail about carroll county's housing choice.

N

Voucher program, which I don't know that everyone understands one of the things that we, sir, that.

N

The population that we serve here in carroll with our housing choice vouchers right now,.

N

We are at 99 utilization of folks that are either older adults or disabled individuals.

N

um I think that sometimes people have a misconception about the population served.

N

By housing, choice, voucher programs and in carroll county, we are serving those folks most in need. Our.

N

Vulnerable individuals, so I just wanted to make that clear and one other thing is just to to make.

N

Sure folks are aware also that this is a continuum of our housing solutions in carroll, county and so.

N

When we talk about these the changes that we're recommending here, we don't do this in a vacuum.

N

Just with the bureau of housing, we we meet with our coc, we talk with the executive committee, we.

N

Have subcommittees of the executive committee of the coc, the continuum of care for homeless.

N

Homelessness, where we we talk about how we're we're not meeting the needs, and how can we do.

N

It better and and part of the recommendations with these vouchers is to make those changes that the.

N

Team has identified- and this is the whole county- comes together to to help us with this process.

O

Extension to that, we also have what is called a resident advisory board where we actually have.

O

Landlords and participants of our program that we meet regularly with and we discuss the changes.

O

So we make sure we're getting input from those who are actually being affected by the changes.

O

Within the program as well yeah, I appreciate that and um the integrated approach that you do have.

A

I don't know if you've come in front of us to walk us through the continuum of care process and.

A

That may be something value for myself and colleagues.

A

The importance of it, and also a little bit of brain power from us on what may be missing or.

A

What may be duplicate duplicative where we can, you know, save resources, but where are the gaps.

A

In redundancies and duplication, um you do a great job with it, and you know how I feel about that.

A

um But I think there's value just for uh just for information to us, because it is a very valuable.

A

Tool that we have in carroll county again, where carroll county has take care of our community, so.

A

um Yeah, just we'll figure out a time, but you know just put it on we'd love to so with that, though,.

A

um Need a motion for this administrative plan to stay available for 45 days.

E

And move the board of commissioners approve the display of the annual plan for 45 days.

E

For public review and comment and announce a public hearing prior to the april 6 2023 to.

E

Consider approval to submit the fy 23 annual plan to hud okay, so I can I got a motion. I.

A

Got a second any discussion on this seen here, not all in favor aye. Okay, thank you. Thank you.

A

A

We now are going to move into a public hearing.

A

We're going to rezoning case number 228 eldersburg investors to llc.

A

Burke, did you want to get us started on this, sir?.

P

Yes, good morning, this is a public hearing to consider a piecemeal rezoning request.

P

It is a hearing which will be first hearing from our department planning.

P

And then we'll be hearing from the developer, the applicant, so at this.

P

Point maybe we'll turn into our department and also, if there's public here, if there's.

P

Any public comment today, please fill in a comment card and hand it to mrs windham.

P

Okay, thank you hi good morning, commissioners. We are here before you today, as mr burke said, for.

Q

Rezoning case 228 eldersburg investors llc. This is um similar to the case that you heard a few weeks.

Q

Ago again, where it was a piecemeal rezoning, it'll be the same process and procedure as you did in.

Q

That case as well, hannah weber is with me today, and she is the staff person who put together the.

Q

Staff report in the planning commission report so with that I'm going to have hannah go ahead.

Q

And introduce the case to you. Thank you, linda good morning, commissioners, good morning getting started.

R

As you can see, we're here for a public hearing for rezoning case 228 eldersburg investors to llc.

R

As always, this public hearing was advertised. You can see here the ad that ran in the carroll county.

R

Times there was also signage posted along maryland, 26 on the frontage of the property.

R

And then we also sent letters out to adjoining property owners notifying them of today's hearing.

R

Getting into the details locating ourselves, we are inside the freedom designated growth.

R

Area in commissioner district five, the petitioned area is located across from.

R

Liberty exchange on the south side of maryland 26.. The petitioned area is four separate parcels.

R

And those four parcels are totaling 12.47 acres. All four parcels are currently zoned.

R

C2, commercial, medium and the request is to rezone all four parcels to c3 commercial high.

R

The applicant is arguing that there is a mistake in the current zoning and that a.

R

Substantial change in the character of the neighborhood has occurred.

R

So, since a change in the neighborhood argument is being used, we had to establish a neighborhood.

R

Boundary in which the change occurred inside of here you can see our petitioned area highlighted.

R

In blue, the neighborhood boundary encompass, encompasses liberty exchange, and then we.

R

Travel west on liberty, road to the cleves mill, road and liberty, road intersection down to that.

R

Commercial area and then we loop back around to the petitioned area, all along liberty, road.

R

And this boundary was agreed upon by department of planning staff, as well as the applicant.

R

So, as said in the beginning, the petitioned area is all zone c2. You can see. We have some conservation.

R

In the area, our 20 000 are 40 000 and then some i1 industrial light in the surrounding area.

R

Part of our process is to send out the transmittal for agency comments. We have the agencies that we.

R

Sent the transmittal to listed here, we sent this transmitter to the reservoir technical group, who.

R

Is a part of the baltimore metropolitan council because this area is located inside the liberty.

R

Reservoir, we received one advisory comment from the carroll county health department. They advised.

R

That the proposed use may not be acceptable unless it is demonstrated that there is an adequate water.

R

Supply and adequate area for the installation of an initial and two replacement septic systems.

R

For the proposed use and any existing uses of this property- and they noted that it is only for parcel.

R

703, which is this parcel second from the left? Why is that? I'm not sure why it is only that partial. I.

R

Mean isn't that yeah? That's weird yeah um we're not quite clear on that comment either as far.

Q

As what it pertains to, however, and the reason we didn't even see, clarification is that these series.

Q

Of properties were part of the water and sewer amendment in the fall, so they were adopted by.

Q

This body here and have been sent to mde for their approval, so that will not be an issue.

Q

um If and when this should become developed because it will be on water and sewer service.

Q

Okay, because yeah that doubts yeah, we just bring it forward to you as one of the comments received.

Q

um Moving forward, as stated in the beginning, the applicant is arguing a mistake in the current.

R

Zoning I'm only going to hit the highlights, as the applicant will have their time to dive into.

R

Details later on, in the hearing, the petitioner alleges mistake in the current zoning of c2, the.

R

Zoning authority could not anticipate that the four contiguous parcels would come under the.

R

Control and ownership of a single entity and thus would present commercial development opportunities.

R

More appropriate for a c3 zoning district, the property was mistakenly viewed as not being.

R

Eligible for immediate sewer service during the most recent comprehensive rezoning of the parcels.

R

Individual rezonings in the area show that more intense commercial.

R

Uses such as a business park have been recognized as appropriate in the area.

R

The continuing development of the liberty exchange project, including the potential.

R

Development of the pad sites directly across liberty, road from the property, would could and.

R

Likely entail a commercial development that would be compatible with c3 zoning.

R

Unlike some other areas of c2 zoning along liberty, road, the property backs up to agricultural zone.

R

Land, which is a lower density, mixed-use type zone which would be compatible with c3 uses such as a.

R

Business park, the I-1 zone property immediately to the east of the subject. Property suggests that.

R

A heavier zone than c2 would be appropriate and, lastly, the property is appropriate for a c3 zoning.

R

Designation, which is the only zoning district in the county allowing for development of a business.

R

Park it backs up to agriculture or conservation. I thought it was conservation, conservation.

Q

Conservation zone land, but it's an agricultural usage, yeah. Okay, it's agricultural usage, but it's.

A

Conservation, sound, correct, okay, what I'm not sure what you had on that slide that we just saw. I.

A

Apologize: this is the petitioner's arguments taken from their petition that they submitted to us.

A

Agriculture yeah but see you have backs up to agriculturally zone land and that's not true.

A

We copy it directly, we don't want to change it, yeah that wasn't right. I see what you're.

A

Saying: okay: yeah, because it's conservation zone right agriculturally used got it. Okay,.

R

So those were the applicant arguments of mistake and the staff draws the conclusions. Staff believe.

R

There was no mistake in the last comprehensive rezoning and applying the c2 designation.

R

At the time of the last comprehensive rezoning, three of the four parcels in the petitioned.

R

Area were requested by the then property owner to rezone from our 20 000 residential to c2. This was.

R

Part of the buy request phase of the comprehensive rezoning process that was adopted in 2021.

R

Following in-depth research of the rezoning request, a staff report was prepared by planning.

R

Presented to both planning, commission and the county commissioners and the rezoning.

R

Was ultimately adopted by the board of county commissioners rezoning the properties to c2.

R

The fourth parcel was rezoned from r 20 000 to business general bg following the comprehensive.

R

Rezoning process in the early 2000s, similar to the 2020-2021 by request process, the then.

R

Property owner applied for a rezoning, a staff report was prepared by planning presented.

R

To both planning commission and the county, commissioners and the zoning was ultimately.

R

Changed from r20 to bg and then following the elimination of the bg districts. That fourth.

R

Parcel was placed into the c2 zoning district, so let me just a little bit of history again.

A

As we went through the process 2021, we moved it from r 20 000 those four parcels. These three.

R

Parcels were originally zoned r20 to c2 correct. We did that by a requester, the zen property owner.

R

Different than the one today applied for those for that rezoning and there's no c3 property in this.

A

Community at this time, correct and then a little bit later on before that and yeah you're right.

A

We moved that residential to c2, correct to business yeah to business general yeah.

A

Okay and where would the closest c3 zoned property be to this uh location here, I'm.

F

Gonna put you on the spot, because I don't think your map's, that big, but to the east.

Q

um Yeah tour 32 intersection: it's not there. It's way down by 2632 intersection.

F

Probably for- and you know, I'm guilty of not bringing my awesome handout with me yeah, but.

F

uh If you had to characterize the difference between c2 and c3, it sounds like it's a.

F

There's a difference, but uh it I mean I'm reading through the slides, it's a level of intensity. I.

F

Mean can you explain about what people watching might yes, and so let me just clarify too so.

Q

There's no other c2 zone, I mean c3 zoned property in this area. However, the land use designation of.

Q

The industrial piece across which is now, which is the liberty exchange property, does have.

Q

A land use designation and the freedom plan as commercial high. Just during the buy request phase.

Q

The decision by the property owners to not rezone their property wanted to stay in the i1 district.

Q

So just to so so it's kind of like totally not out of character, to have this more intense of.

Q

A use out here um so hannah: can you just give them a briefing of what the difference between.

Q

C2 and c3 is from the yeah definition, then also the liberty exchange it's one of a kind.

A

One of a kind in the county that correct you know so and that that's also important to.

A

To understand that, it's not you know um we're doing this model another plate. This is one of.

A

A kind model, so it does in that sense conform uh to the rest of it, but they're still the.

A

Question where else is c3 so but go ahead. So um in your booklet, the definition of the.

R

C2, medium intensity, district, a diverse range of medium intensity, retail service and professional.

R

Office uses needed by a larger population than those provided for in the c1 district.

R

um By bicycle and pedestrian access are encouraged where possible and then for c3.

R

High intensity, large-scale retail businesses and destinations of a regional nature planned.

R

Business parks, clusters of commercial development, wholesale businesses, offices and certain light.

R

Processing operations- and it's also the intensity of the square footage, is allowed of the various.

Q

Buildings types, so I think a c2 goes up to 60 000 square feet and then c3 can go beyond that.

R

Thank you, yeah, okay, so I'm going to keep on going.

R

The petitioned area was given a land use designation of commercial medium in the.

R

2018 freedom, community comprehensive plan making its current c2 zoning consistent.

R

With that land use designation, so looking at all of this, the designation of the petitioned area.

R

As c2 was deliberate, as each specific parcel was specifically looked at for its current zoning of.

R

C2 now that was just for the mistake argument. Correct just wanted to make that clear. Yes,.

A

Going back to the um c2 and c3 differences.

A

There's differences in the uses of.

A

Permitted and conditional uses there's no differences in the um the height restrictions and.

A

All of that stuff, that's correct the same, whether it's c2 or c3. It's you know, 50 feet.

A

Max height 15 feet, you know, side, yard, 15 and then 10 front. I mean that's in c2 and c3 correct yeah.

A

I'm reading my mind, I'm reading what you wrote: yeah so yeah. So it's it's really focused on the.

A

Use and the intensity and the intensity, but not on the properties, dimensions, correct, okay,.

R

Okay, so that is the mistake argument. um Staff does not believe there was mistake in the designations.

R

Of c2, moving on to the change arguments presented by the applicant, there have been substantial.

R

Changes in the character of the neighborhood related to road improvements surrounding.

R

Rezonings changes to the water and sewer service areas and development of the surrounding area.

R

Changing the public sewer service status of a property is a substantial change in the character.

R

Of the property, rendering it a different animal in the neighborhood, with real potential to affect and.

R

Influence the neighborhood and a fundamentally different way than a septic, well property would.

R

Zoning text amendments allowed for the hybrid retail, slash industrial uses, changing the.

R

Character of the neighborhood by creating a tenant mix virtually next door to the property.

R

That would be more compatible with c3 zoning and again this is from the applicant. This is perfect.

R

So staff conclusions of the change argument staff believe there has been a change in the character.

R

Of the neighborhood, as we discussed earlier, the petitioned area applied for and is currently.

R

Going through a water and sewer fall amendment, the property is currently in the existing and priority.

R

Service category for water and the long-range service category for sewer the purpose of this.

R

Amendment is to bring the entire petitioned area, which is approximately 12 acres into the.

R

Priority service category for both water and sewer, bringing the petitioned area into these service.

R

Categories will increase the allowable water and sewer allocation for a possible development. This.

R

Amendment was adopted by the board of county commissioners and forwarded to the maryland.

R

Department of the environment for the official approval at their january 26 2023, open session.

R

As stated in the petitioner's arguments of change maryland case law specifically notes that changes.

R

In the public, water and sewer infrastructure can constitute as a substantive change.

R

um At the time when the c2 zoning district was designated to the petitioned area in 2021.

R

County staff were unaware, the petitioned area would come under the control and.

R

Ownership of a single entity, ultimately increasing the acreage of the parcels.

R

Some of the major differentiating factors and uses allowed in the c2 and c3 district.

R

Are intensity and necessary acreage. The c3 zoning district allows for more intense.

R

Uses, but those uses also tend to require a larger acreage now that the petitioned area.

R

Has increased in acreage due to ownership, it may be more suitable for those three c3 uses.

R

So that's it for the details of the rezoning case as we get closer to you all, making your.

R

Decision the annotated code of maryland states, the legislative body shall make.

R

Findings a fact that address population change, the availability of public facilities present.

R

And future transportation patterns compatibility with existing and proposed development for the.

R

Area the recommendation of the planning commission and the relationship of the proposed amendment to.

R

The local jurisdictions plan at the january 17th planning commission meeting they gave.

R

This rezoning, a favorable recommendation to you all this was introduced and requested to.

R

Go to public hearing at your january 26th, open session. Today, we are here for a public hearing.

R

And then, if no decision is reached today we have time scheduled next thursday february 23rd for.

R

A final decision from you all and as of today, we have not had any comments coming from the public.

Q

Submitted so not that there's not public cure on the phone, but no one has submitted anything. The.

A

Planning, commission favorable was it a heated discussion? Was it a? It was a unanimous decision by.

R

Them they felt that the water and sewer amendment constituted a change in their opinion, yeah.

A

Okay, if there's any other questions.

A

um Back back to uh which, which we've talked about on other cases, to use and ownership.

D

This is four parcels correct. We can talk about the zoning. The four parcels will remain four parcels.

D

And could ultimately be individually owned later so we're going to have the applicant.

Q

Address some of that in their report with their intent is um but again when you make.

Q

Your decision contemplate it for all c3 uses. I know it's always interesting to hear from.

Q

What an applicant is proposing to do, but it's not until the site plan is approved and construction.

Q

Happens that that use will come to fruition and the applicant owns all four parcels at this time.

A

So that that gives it another dynamic. So, um okay, um are there any other questions for our.

A

Staff at this time, not at this moment for me, can I ask one question: do the commissioners have the.

P

Planning staff report it was sent to them prior to their introduction. Okay in january, let's make.

P

That a part of the record for today's hearing, if you can thanks, um okay and just to clarify when.

F

Was it when did it go from r20 to c2 again, what was the date that that was approved.

R

It was adopted in early 2021, commissioner rosting and yeah the previous board right.

A

We uh previous board correct, yeah, correct. We went through properties specifically on.

A

South of liberty, road that we moved from residential to c2 those by princess shopping.

A

Center all the way down to this- I remember so- I believe it was approved in december and then went.

R

Into effect in january of 2021 right, so it was just to conform. The south part of liberty, road.

A

Into uh into more of a commercial district, so okay, any other questions from the commissioners.

P

Okay, commissioner staff, the applicant, is here represented at seat at the table, sit down staff do.

P

You have any questions, do you have any questions of staff after you identify yourself for the board.

S

You good morning, commissioners, kelly schaefer miller, 73 east main street westminster maryland.

S

21157, I'm here today on behalf of eldersburg investors, l2 llc, commissioner rothstein, actually.

S

Asked the only question that I did have of staff already, so I do not have any. Thank you.

S

Okay, so what was that question just curious? It was just to confirm that the planning.

S

Commission, discussion and and favorable recommendation was unanimous. Thank you so.

S

Thank you. I am going to call my first witness mr thomas pilon. I also prepared- and I want to.

S

Make sure that I project into the microphone packets, of all of our exhibits for you, and I.

S

Will point out a few of them once I hand them out, because mr burke just asked about a few so.

P

Thank you, while you're doing that, would anybody who's going to testify? Please stand and swear.

P

Affirm that the testimony you're about to give is uh is true. Okay, thank you. Yes,.

P

B

Thank you very much. Thank you.

I

Thank you. Thank you. I'd love one. If you have, I wish the other mr schaefer or shaver had this.

A

So organized, but thank you I'm just saying I mean it was uh you know one thing after.

A

Another didn't know where it was coming from, but this is very succinct I after last week we.

L

Said the first, I'm just saying again: there's noise coming from the back, I don't know yeah.

S

I also haven't have an extra copy that I'm going to set right here on this chair in case.

S

To look through there, so, just briefly before I officially call mr pilon, I want to point out.

S

That the first entry in there is legal memorandum, which is just a very brief synopsis of some of the.

S

Case law that supports the arguments that are going to be made here today. The second exhibit.

S

Is a timeline that also points out some of the dates that were just asked about so hopefully.

S

That will be helpful to just have in front of you. The third exhibit is the is also a copy.

S

Of the county staff report, so in case you didn't already have a copy printed in front.

S

Of you there's one included in this packet as well, so and then the fourth exhibit is a copy.

S

Of the staff report that was part of that buy, request, comprehensive rezoning effort.

S

That staff just spoke to in the introduction, so I've included packet or copies of each of those.

S

Just for convenient reference throughout and would ask that those be entered as the first.

S

Four exhibits and then we'll talk through the rest, as we continue our presentation. Thank you.

S

Mr pulon, can you please state your name, spelling your last name and address for the record. Please.

T

Thomas pilon p-I-l-o-n 2560, lord baltimore drive windsor mill, maryland 2-0 or 21244.

S

Mr pilon, can you please tell the board where you are employed st john properties and can.

S

You explain your role and experience at st john properties, sure I am the executive vice president.

T

Of development, my department is responsible for shepherding our projects through the.

T

Some people would call the entitlement process or, however, you want to refer to it. Basically.

T

From due diligence, and so we have permits in hand and then we hand it off to our construction group.

S

And can you tell us uh just a little bit about st john properties in general.

T

Sure um so saint john properties was founded in 1971 by edward st john, who is still the.

T

Chairman of the board and executive of the main executive of the company, we're located.

T

In I mentioned windsor mill near baltimore, uh we have been for the last 50 years, developing.

T

Business parks in and around the greater baltimore metropolitan area, as well as a.

T

Number of other areas throughout the state, as well as in several other states, wisconsin.

T

Colorado, utah, texas, north carolina, maybe some others and we own and operate about 23 million.

T

Square feet of commercial office, industrial space that we uh lease to businesses and such we're a.

T

Long-Term real estate investment company we're privately held, but over the last 26 years that.

T

I've been with st john properties. Our portfolio has increased from about 6 million square feet.

T

To about 20 to the 23 million that we're at today so and we don't tend to sell stuff, we develop only.

T

For ourselves and we're general contractors and such as well so we're just building a portfolio.

S

Fair summary to say that st john properties is what we would call a buy and hold type of.

S

Developer, yes, okay, and can you briefly describe how you became familiar with opportunities in.

S

Carroll county, uh so we have a acquisitions group. I mentioned that we do our work from.

T

Due diligence through the permitting phase, we have a group individuals who are out looking.

T

For opportunities to invest so as they're doing that throughout the state we've been, you know.

T

Keeping an eye on carroll, county and kind of looking for opportunities. Now the application in.

S

Front of this board is in the name of eldersburg investors to llc what entity would develop this.

S

Property, so st john properties would act as the development entity on behalf of of the llc and.

S

It's accurate that the llc owns all took ownership of all four of these parcels. That's correct, yeah,.

S

Can you was it on july, 26 2022 that eldersburg investors to acquired all four parcels by deed.

S

Is that the correct date? Yes, that's the right thing now, I'm going to show you what I've marked.

S

And I've tried to mark these as the exhibit numbers in the left-hand column. But then I've.

S

Tried to paginate also because there's a lot of pages here, so I'm going to turn to what I've.

S

Marked as petitioners exhibit five, which begins on page 32 of the actual packet and the page.

S

Numbers are kind of in the upper right hand corner for you. So, mr pilon, briefly, you don't.

S

I mean you have seen these before, so I won't ask you to review them, but is it accurate that.

S

Applicants exhibit five represents the deeds to each of these parcels, yes, okay and, and that those.

S

Indicate that eldersburg investors to llc took ownership on the 26th of july 2022 correct. Yes,.

S

Is it correct that three of the parcels currently have residences uh improved on them? Yes, okay,.

S

Okay, and are those currently occupied they're, not.

S

Can you tell us what the status is of those residences, so they are currently just secured.

T

And and vacant, as recently as yesterday, we inspected the properties just to be sure that.

T

There's nothing going on. You know that nothing's in disorder and such but yeah they're currently.

T

Vacant and secured, I would like to ask that petitioners exhibit five be entered. Please.

A

Got it? Thank you, mr pilon has st john properties developed any other sites in carroll, county yeah,.

S

And is that known as liberty exchange, yes, okay? Okay, where is liberty exchange located uh just.

T

To the north, on the north side of liberty, road kind of opposite this property, so on.

S

That neighborhood map, just so that everybody has the contacts the neighborhood map, that's part of.

S

um The staff report is that shown on there: yes, okay and that's the large swath of of purple.

S

Which is industrial correct? It's about half of it. Okay, one half is the um tobacco. I forget the name.

T

Of the tobacco flavoring company and then the the western half is liberty exchange. Okay, thank you.

S

Would you consider liberty exchange a successful project in carroll county? Yes,.

S

Yes, is liberty, exchange.

S

um A good example of the type of development, generally speaking, that st john properties does.

S

Describe a little bit the the tenant mix for these type of parks, how they're.

S

Selected and how we come up with you know: a liberty exchange type product.

T

um So liberty exchange is comprised of a few different building types as you move from the.

T

Front of the property to the back of the property, we have kind of traditional retail buildings.

T

At the front, and then we have one-story office buildings and then the back are what we call flex.

T

Buildings which are suitable for different types of uses, all of those buildings lend themselves to.

T

Being multi-tenanted, which means that you can have multiple principal uses in the in the buildings.

T

Themselves, so the retail buildings, you know we're typically looking for retail type uses inside of.

T

Our parks, we're always looking for a lot of convenience type uses our tenants excuse me.

T

Would typically be looking for they kind of ask us two questions: where can I park and where can I eat.

T

um Excuse me they um uh so that's kind of what's at the front of the property.

T

And then we've got there was some medical uses and things like that in the office buildings.

T

um They those buildings tend to lend themselves to that type of a tenant, and then the back buildings.

T

Can be a mix of types of uses as an example, uh the the brewery was is back in the one building.

T

We have an outdoor uh supply for like patio, furniture and things like that in one of the.

T

Buildings, so the tenants in working with the brokerage community. We have in-house leasing.

T

Agents and they're responsible by kind of areas, so we have someone who's designated to this area and.

T

They work with the brokerage community to bring tenants to our parks and we go through and we look.

T

At them and qualify them, as you know, good tenants, meaning basically they can pay the bills they have.

T

A successful, a good looking business plan and they can pay the bill and then we lease them to them.

T

Second, I think that was a that was a good summation. um If this petition were successful.

S

Is it the intent of st john properties to develop these four parcels as a business park? Yes, okay,.

S

Can you explain now recognizing that a business park is a different section of the code than.

S

What see what liberty exchange has developed under? Can you explain why st john properties finds the.

S

Business park model appealing sure um I mentioned earlier when I was talking about the different.

T

Types of buildings that we have business park allows for those uses, so we could do some retail.

T

Uses in there we can have office uses and we can have flex buildings and in fact, we're intending.

T

To do a mix like that with this park, so it would be similar, even though it's different.

T

It would be similar to what we the success that we've had over at liberty exchange and I'm sorry.

B

You said flex, buildings flex. Yes, thank you. Yeah. It's a building type, it's kind of like a retail.

T

Building, if you'd like a little explanation, if not, I just sure the flex billing is somewhat.

T

Like an inline retail building, meaning that you it's designed with the intent of allowing.

T

You could have you could have a law firm in there. You could have a doctor's office in there. You.

T

Could have a you know some late manufacturing? We have the brewery in one of the buildings.

T

um So the front of them is like a one-story office bill and you walk up. You have your own private.

T

Entrance, we don't have what's called common areas in the buildings when you lease a bay or multiple.

T

Bays of that building, you have your own entrance and you kind of control, your own environment and.

T

Then the back of the building has a loading component to it, so that you can, if you have.

T

Trucks that need to come and go and things like that and through our portfolio we have a a wide.

T

Range of uses that land in these business parks in the in the flex buildings. But it's a lot of people.

T

Confuse it with a use, as opposed to a building type, you have retail buildings. You have office.

T

Buildings, you have medical office buildings and you have flex. Buildings are some of the types so.

D

And piggybacking that question the um the flex buildings typically are built prior to having.

D

Tenants, so you can be flexible, but the other buildings there. Will you build them? Four tenants.

D

Or some will also be, um you know, you don't know who's going to be in it yet, but you're building.

D

It so we're st john has our whole business model is we're speculative builders, meaning.

T

That we build and advance we look at a market. We make a determination as to whether or not.

T

We think that market is in need and then we build there and then we actually carry that.

T

Through so like we'll build a building when that building's 50, at least we'll build the.

T

Next building so that we always have availability until we've finished out a project. And it's and.

T

It's stable kelly asked earlier that you know if we considered liberty exchange a successful.

T

Business park and the answer is yes: it's it's a stable park, we're getting market rents.

T

You know we've got a good mix of tenants in there things like that. So, yes, we we built.

T

Speculatively the difference at liberty exchange is the very front of that, where it's currently.

T

There's nothing up there: those are pad sites and pad sites. We would typically be looking to lease.

T

That piece of land or somebody who would build their own building or we might build for them.

S

Thank you for those questions. You you you. He he's already answered some of my questions so.

S

That's a good thing. No, that's a good thing. That's a good thing! We moved uh we moved efficiently. I.

S

Like it so, mr pilon, you understand that that this petition, um if approved, would result in.

S

C3 zoning, which is you know, subject to the conditions, correct, correct, yes, okay,.

S

And although you've been testified that the intent would be to develop a business park on the site.

S

You understand that any c3 use would be could be developed on the site. Correct, correct, okay,.

S

One quick follow-up to uh my entity question about eldersburg investors too. Can you confirm that ed.

S

St john is a principal in eldersburg investors too. Llc he's he's a member member okay. I think member.

S

Is the correct legal term for an llc? So, yes, I know you have to be 100 accurate. Yes, no. I appreciate.

S

That and then circling back um to some of the discussions about the flex buildings. Can you.

S

Also uh confirm that the st john properties model usually is a breaking glass type of structure.

T

Usually always always: okay, there, you go see even more accurate. Okay, those were my last.

S

Questions and concludes my testimony of mr pilon. Are there any questions for mr pilon.

A

um First question I I do have is first off: are you the senior st john representative here this.

A

Morning, what do you mean by age, yes to both okay? So I want to make a couple comments, pretty clear.

A

um Because uh social media can get away from people and it's it's garbage.

A

In so many cases, especially when people write anonymously, which is even more garbage but.

A

I have no intent of recusing myself in any decision we make, because I believe I can be.

A

Very unbiased, as I've shown over the last five years and actually questions my ethics over 30.

A

Years in uniform, so I will stay unbiased and the reason I'm bringing this up now, because you.

A

Are a senior because we've known each other for four years and I've watched um liberty, exchange.

A

Continue to succeed- and um you know speaking to and I know he's back there somewhere, mr lyburn on.

A

Liberty exchange, and also to mr tweel who's, now howard county economic developer, on his success.

A

um And they were my counterparts when I was the economic developer in anne arundel county.

A

Which, I think is still probably the largest county, that saint john has property, um maybe baltimore.

T

Yeah, I mean it was yes, I mean just phenomenal and the success we had with a developer like st john's.

A

Along with merit and others, but saint john specifically and annual rundle was second.

A

To none- and uh you know no favoritism, no, you know doing things inappropriately everything.

A

Was very transparent with the county executive at that time um led to a lot of success. St john is a.

A

Contributor to me, but I don't think it's saint john properties. I think it's from a saint john.

A

Entity yeah and uh you know, um just as I get donations or whatever contributions from others.

A

um Which doesn't bother me and probably all the large developers in the state because of my work.

A

From anne arundel county uh and I'm just bringing this up very clear now because again, you're you're.

A

The senior um that you believe I can be unbiased in my effort and I think our conversations have.

A

Been very unbiased not always going your way or st john's way, and it's been very clear.

A

So yeah just I want my colleagues to rest assure I want everybody in the community register and all.

A

Those, whether we call them snakes or whatever, on social media, that don't want to identify.

A

Themselves, rest assure that I'm very comfortable in a very unbiased leadership role that I have on.

A

The dice, so um I do believe st john's- does a good product. You know and that's what uh I appreciate.

A

That you know in liberty exchange and around the county I mean- and we've talked about that so.

A

um You mentioned anne arundel county. I think we're the second largest taxpayer in anne.

T

Arundel county I've been with ed since 1997 at st john and uh almost every business park in.

T

Anne arundel county now that we've developed, has got my name on it as development manager.

T

um So it's been a place. We've been able to do a lot of investing. It's been really good and a lot.

A

Of revenue coming back to the county, so well, we try. You know and, as I mentioned before, you know.

T

We're long-term investors once we get involved in a community week. You know we're involved in.

T

The community we're not fee developers, we don't turn in burns, so yep um yeah. I think.

A

I just want to make more that statement in the questions, but wanted to get the verification.

A

From you knowing you're the senior here sure um so, okay are there any questions or comments just.

B

So I have a very, very basic sense of what we're looking at here so far, so the petitioner is saying.

B

That there was a mistake in the zoning and there was also substantial change in the neighborhood.

B

Do I have that right so far? Yes, that's correct! Then our our own department is alleging. That.

B

There was not a mistake in zoning, but there was a substantial change in the neighborhood. Am I.

B

I've got that so far. Okay, yes, um yeah, no, more questions for me. At this particular moment, yeah.

A

Anything else I'd like to add a comment I mean, regardless of the source. I think residents of.

F

The county, when they have questions they should ask them. I think if, if people want to ask those.

F

Type of questions, I think they have a right to do so and they they do deserve an answer.

F

And unfortunately, what type of questions unfortunately.

F

If, if people, if people want to ask, if I mean I'm not really sure exactly exactly everything.

F

You're referring to, but if people have questions about their county commissioners and they want to.

F

Ensure that they're taking an unbiased approach to all the decisions we make up here. I think it's.

F

In with completely within the county residents right to ask that question how they do it and.

F

Where they do it, that's always a debate, but we're not above reproach. Oh absolutely we're.

A

Not above that's the point I'm making absolutely now I agree 100 and unfortunately, we we are in.

F

A situation in the county where- and this is not- this is just the nature of things- county residents.

F

Are concerned about development, it's not 1983 anymore. It's 2023 and people in this county have.

F

Lived through enough development enough traffic studies enough planned studies to know that they.

F

Need to pay attention to what's going on and I think that's what you're seeing yeah. I think.

A

Nobody's above reproach or approach whatever that word is how it gets to us is a different story.

A

And I'm making it very clear that I'm unbiased I'm making it very clear. I hold my ethics in.

A

The highest regard to anybody that questions it and whether I receive contributions from.

A

Saint john's or anyone else, people can ask me the question anytime: they want I've made that.

A

Very clear to everyone how they do it. You know. Unfortunately, social media has gone away from.

A

Us and it becomes very circular- and it's a in many cases very embarrassing- that we can't get through.

A

To the truth of the matter, and that's my point that I'm making so let me very briefly say I've.

B

Certainly respect the questions have been asked. Commissioner, I respect the fact that you've addressed those questions and if I could go back to the the question so why.

B

Remind me, why is there an alleged mistake in the zoning? What was the what's the source of that.

B

The allegation that there was a mistake in the zoning, the two principal allegations and and the.

S

Reason, commissioner, vigliotti, that I think uh led you to ask that initial question, which is.

S

Okay, are we claiming change and mistake, or one or the other, is because the um the two principal.

S

Allegations kind of fit under both arguments and that's why I put together that legal memo for you.

S

All too, because that summarizes some of the case law in regards to a mistake um and and the fact.

S

That a mistake is not a disregard for information on the part of staff. A mistake under maryland case.

S

Law can sometimes be facts that were not part of a consideration because they weren't available at.

S

That time so to get to your question the two principal statements allegations. However, you.

S

Want to phrase them are that there was a change to the sewer service area. Okay, these properties.

S

If you see on that that timeline, these parcels went from long-range service to priority service.

S

And the second change being that these properties went from individual ownership to common ownership.

S

Which significantly changes uh the development potential and use potential for say that one.

B

More time it went from what to common, it went from individual ownership of the four parcels to common.

S

Ownership of the four eldersburg investors to llc now owns all four of those parcels.

B

And then, based on the fact that there is now a common owner, you're saying that, because the.

B

Conditions of the ownership have changed. That constitutes the mistake that is being alleged.

S

It's it's one of the basis for the mistake. Yes, because at the time that zoning implemented.

S

The the most recent comprehensive rezoning of that property, those were individually owned.

S

Nobody knew that those were going to come under common ownership, so that has only been as of july.

S

Of this past year that that occurred- and thank you very much yes now be made one parcel or will.

D

Remain for individual parcels, commissioner, you can do you want me to start, or do you want to just.

T

Okay, so the what will happen is we'll reconfigure, the parcels so that we have whether they become.

T

Legally called lots or exactly what the right term will be, but we'll reconfigure the shape of.

T

The boundary lines so that each building sits on its own lot and we do that for financing purposes.

T

If you have it all on a single parcel, when you go to finance it, if you haven't built everything.

T

It messes up how you they'll, basically they'll escrow the money and then you're forced to build.

T

And there's just a object that goes on, so yes, we'll reconfigure. It probably three lots, be my.

T

Guess point of clarification not for you, but for you, as far as what you share with us, those deeds.

A

One of those properties was owned by miss kirkner, correct or kirschner.

A

Who is on? No, she did not. She was not an owner, I saw a name, I think she witnessed one of those. I.

S

Think she may have been a real estate agent. Okay, I just saw, I saw a name, she was involved. She was.

T

The realtor that, okay, yes, yes, she was the agent okay, yes, okay, that that's good! I just briefly.

A

Saw it- and I saw the name so she did disclose that at the planning commission review as well.

S

Yes, she has no involvement at this challenge. Just clarification, miss kirschner is on our planning.

A

And zoning uh commission and she did disclose that that she was the agent got it: okay, okay,.

S

Thank you, commissioner. If there are no further questions of mr pilon, I would call my next witness.

S

Please, okay, mr andrew stein,.

S

I call him andy so so don't uh don't hold that against me. If I, if I slip.

S

Andy, can you please state your name, spelling your last name and address.

S

For the record, please uh andrew stein, s-t-I-n-e192 east main street westminster.

S

And andy: where do you work? I work for development design, consultants uh oftenly. We trade as ddc inc.

S

And can you just just your educational background? I have a master's degree in landscape architecture.

U

With a planning focus and a bachelor's degree in landscape architecture and also I've been.

U

Practicing a license in the state for the last 22 years now I believe so you're a licensed landscape.

S

Architect in the state of maryland correct, I am, I was wrong. I've been practicing in the.

U

State for 22 but licensed for 20. At this point and approximately how long have you worked in.

S

Carroll county, uh my entire career, one of my first projects in carroll county, was working on the land.

U

Acquisition for the manchester bypass and during your time and working for the with the county.

S

um Are you familiar with the county's policies and the county code? Yes, have you qualified, as.

S

An expert in front of boards and agencies in carroll county maryland: uh yes, both the.

U

Bza and the planning, commission and various boards and all the incorporated municipalities.

S

I would like to offer mr stein as an expert in the area of site development and planning.

A

Please, thank you, mr stein. Is it accurate that you prepared the plat that accompanied this petition.

S

Yes, I worked with our surveyors in our office. Those exhibits are typically sealed by surveyors.

U

But I work directly with them in preparation of the rezoning plots. Can you generally describe.

S

To us what goes into the preparation of that plot? What's looked at in preparing that plot.

U

All the boundaries are field surveyed. So there's a field survey conducted. We look at tax records, we.

U

Look at zoning information. We look at water and sewer category master plan, information.

S

Now you've you're familiar with the area um that we are outlining as the neighborhood in this case.

S

And that is part of the staff report. Correct! Yes, okay, can you just describe generally describe that.

S

Area to us, uh as has been mentioned previously, it's largely comprised of the liberty road.

U

Corridor um running from the larger industrial properties, around emerald lane and exchange drive.

U

All the way west to the intersection and all the commercial properties down by cleese mill, road.

S

I have marked in the packet here as exhibit 6 and it's on page 65, okay, so I'm going to show.

S

Mr stein, that and mr stein is this a copy of the county's official zoning map. Yes, it is and does.

S

That show the properties kind of in the upper left corner there. Yes, it does okay, and can I.

S

Know you just described kind of the uses in the neighborhood, but looking at this zoning map can.

S

You describe the surrounding zoning specifically, yes, there is a mix of industrial and commercially.

U

Zoned land to the north and east immediately to the south is a conservation zone parcel.

U

And to the west there are residentially zoned properties, along with those across the street.

S

I would like to ask that exhibit 6 be entered, please. Thank you.

S

Now, mr stein, and taking a look at at this property and the surrounding properties, is it accurate that.

S

There is a conservation easement on the large uh conservation zoned portion to the south of.

S

This site- yes, there was an easement granted to the maryland environmental trust that I believe.

U

Pertains largely to the function of a buffer along liberty reservoir, so I'll refer to that. um That.

U

Is the maryland? I'm sorry protection! I'm sorry because you said in maryland: forest protection.

U

Maryland, environmental trust, environmental trust. Okay, mr stein, as we talk through this I'll have.

S

It in front of you, it is in the packet marked, as exhibit seven, and it begins on page 66. Here.

S

Mr stein, have you had the opportunity to review that easement document? I have okay.

S

And I believe you just stated it, but can you just tell us again who the beneficiary of that.

S

Easement is it's the maryland environmental trust? Okay? Is it an accurate summation that.

S

That easement document perpetually prohibits residential structures on the property, except.

S

For one additional structure at the northwest property corner that is correct, it allows for.

U

A principal dwelling and accessory dwelling- and I believe it also mentions a possibility of having.

U

A recreational vehicle parked there. So if you really were to kind of summarize the impact of.

S

This easement on that type of property would it be accurate to say that this really restricts.

S

Any development potential on that southern portion yeah unless something were to happen.

U

With that easement there probably would never be a major residential subdivision to the south of.

S

I would like to ask that that exhibit 7 be entered, please so moved. Thank you.

S

Mr stein, are you familiar with the liberty, what's known as the liberty exchange project.

S

Across the street, yes, I was involved with that property from practically the very start, with.

U

St john properties, I was the project manager for the site component. There were a number of road.

U

Improvements that our engineers worked on, but I oversaw the preparation and processing of the.

U

Site development plan for liberty exchange and I've been involved with that property, for I want.

U

To say, 14 years now, even up through assisting with the permits for tenants like 1623 brewing.

S

As part of that, but also any other projects, you've been involved in, are you familiar with.

S

The site development plan process through carroll county- yes very familiar, can you.

S

Just very generally describe the submittal and review process that that would occur as.

S

Part of any site plan, a pre-submittal meeting is scheduled with county staff, usually followed by.

U

A concept site development plan review that also involves a conceptual storm, water management and.

U

Sediment control once, though, concerns regarding those items have been addressed adequately than.

U

A final site development plan is prepared and processed through the county, and that also has.

S

Opportunity for planning, commission public review and then approval correct, yes, okay and is it? Is it.

S

Accurate to say that if this rezoning petition were approved that any development that would.

S

Occur on these properties would still be required to proceed through that process. Yes, the full.

U

Process: okay, now you're familiar with the zoning code and the uses that are allowed in c2 and c3.

S

If a use is listed as a principal use in a district, does that inherently mean that it.

S

Can happen on a site that a site can be developed with it? It does not. um There are numerous concerns.

U

There are environmental factors we have to look at traffic, we have to look at storm water. We.

U

Have to look at parking capacity so just because of property possesses a certain certain zoning.

U

Designation that does not predetermine what that property will be used for every single property.

U

Is different and there's a lot of technical review that ultimately determines what can be built there.

S

As a kind of super basic example, would it be fair to say that, for example, a sixty thousand square.

S

Foot retail use would never develop, even if it were c3 zoned on a one acre parcel yeah entirely.

U

Possible that that would not happen or impossible that it would happen. You said impossible right.

S

Yeah impossible, I'm sure you say that into get rid of possible not to impossible. Yes, okay,.

S

Now, given that these four parcels each have access rights to liberty, road.

S

um Currently, would the common ownership allow for a more central access point.

S

Here, yes, it could allow for the establishment of access easements within the property that.

U

Would allow vehicle uh entry and exit from the various parcels to be concentrated at one point.

S

Actually, I'm gonna back myself up a second I have marked, as exhibit.

S

Eight here, the very last page is an aerial photo. So I'm going to show that to mr stein.

S

This is an aerial photo pulled from the county's gis map, correct.

S

Andy, yes, can you explain just briefly how uh how these individual parcels currently access liberty.

S

Road uh 371 and, I believe, is 373 liberty road accessed through a shared driveway on the western.

U

Side of the property and 411 liberty, road has its own driveway entrance, but there also appears to.

U

Be a intermittently used, pave connection between 411 and the shared driveway on the western side.

S

So currently there are multiple access points amongst these four parcels: correct onto liberty,.

S

Road aside from liberty, road, do these properties access any other public street? No, they do not. Okay,.

S

Are you generally familiar with the state highway administration's guidelines? Yes,.

S

If these four parcels remained under individual ownership, would they each be entitled to access.

S

Liberty, road, yes, it is conceivable they could petition for to each have their own access.

S

Have you done enough concept, work on the subject property to believe that the principal access for.

S

This site would be located at the existing exchange, drive, signalized intersection, yeah.

U

That makes the most sense from a traffic standpoint is to take advantage of the.

U

Existing traffic signal and the control and safety that provides- and we have the benefit.

S

Of designing the site that way because of the common ownership is that correct? That is correct.

S

I would like to ask that this exhibit 8 be entered. Please. Thank you.

S

And he does the water and sewer status of a property service status of a property.

S

Materially affect its development potential. Yes, it absolutely does because there are rather stringent.

U

Well and septic requirements that have to be met, including setbacks from things like paving.

U

And storm water facilities and the fact that these properties are slated to be provided or.

U

Moved into the priority category removes a very large development impediment. Would you consider.

S

That a drastic impact to a property, whether it was had to develop well and um well in septic.

S

Versus public facilities, yes, I would- and you just I believe you just said it, but the sewer service.

S

Status of these properties has changed since the last rezoning or has been adopted. I guess by this.

S

Board, I think it's still pending md approval correct. I understand that. Yes, it is in process.

S

Have you had the opportunity um in preparation through this process, to review the staff report.

U

I have and that's exhibit three just for everybody's reference: okay,.

S

um Do you agree with the staff report? I do concur with the staff's ultimate.

U

Determination of change in neighborhood, yes, okay and and tell us whether, in your opinion,.

S

You believe c3 is an appropriate zoning district for this property and why either way, given the.

U

The size of the properties once assembled the location on a major roadway like liberty, road.

U

In proximity to an established traffic signal and also the proximity to adjacent uses like.

U

Liberty exchange and the industrial and commercial properties to the ecs. I do believe it is fitting.

S

Use, I'm sorry, I'm just orienting myself, so you just said commercial properties to the east as.

S

Well, correct yeah, there's a small commercial property to the east uh commercial they're.

U

Industrially zoned, but there are a number of commercial uses in there. Okay, are you familiar.

S

With what the use is to the west of these parcels? Yes, although the property is zone residential, it's.

U

Actually, it's a church, so it's an institutional use on the immediate west of the property. Okay,.

S

So, in your opinion, is the c3 zoning of these properties compatible with the surrounding.

S

Zones, yes, I believe so and in your opinion I know you just said you agreed with the staff report, but.

S

In your opinion, has there been a substantial change in the character of the neighborhood.

U

Yes, I believe there has been considering the the build out of liberty exchange and the.

U

Consolidation of the properties under a single ownership and the water and sewer change. Yes,.

S

Questions of mr stein. Okay, thank you very much additional questions. I have. uh I have two and.

B

If you can't answer the one you know off the bat, that's all right. um I was just kind of.

B

Curious if we know of any other areas, you know offhand that our c3 that also are adjacent to.

B

Residential and conservation areas, absolutely the 27 corridor coming out of westminster to.

U

The north out of westminster to the south, this happened, there are uh high commercial zones and.

U

Industrial zones throughout the finksburg area that are directly adjacent to conservation zones.

U

um Okay and my uh so my second question then, for you specifically you'd, mentioned a little.

B

While ago about uh you know trying to adapt the nature of the business of the surrounding area,.

B

That is to say that you will take into account what surrounds, and I heard you speak about. I.

B

Mentioned specifically conservation, but what about the the residential properties? I don't.

U

Believe I understand the question: take: take them into account or well. You would mentioned a little.

B

While ago that that you know the the kind of of business or construction that will occur, there is.

B

Going to be reflective of what is surrounding the the area that you're going to build out, and you.

B

Would specifically talked about conservation being one aspect of how you might build something like.

B

With respect to that, so um you know the fact that there are homes that are located adjacent to this.

B

Are they going to factor into what you decide to do and how you decide to do it yeah? I believe.

U

They would, when we develop liberty exchange that property at that time was actually split. Zoned in.

U

The back half of the property was conservation, but I believe that the development and liberty.

U

Exchange is a very good example to look at. I believe that has been very well integrated into.

U

The community and I think it would be possible having done that before, that we could do it again.

B

Thank you any other questions, so um liberty exchange, though, has a tree line behind it. It does.

A

And um pretty much surrounded by a tree line from the neighbors from the housing, whereas.

A

This doesn't correct, it does not, but there there are trees in places where it's possible to save.

U

Them we would save them, but also the county does have a landscape manual and the requirements to.

U

Buffer between new uses and adjacent properties, or in the case of something like this pretty robust.

U

And they would be complied with. Okay, um yeah, it's just when you, you know talk about liberty jam. I.

A

Mean you got a call, you know call space spade. You know like apples and as I'm picture in it.

A

I see this tree line with liberty, exchange um I'd, be interested uh and it's not for you or you, but.

A

For our own team, there's a really good question about c3 that that um is next to conservation.

A

Across the county or residential, you know there's again these ideas that we are over developing and.

A

We're becoming other counties in randallstown east. You know I and I recognize those concerns.

A

um It'd be interesting to know if there's other corridors that are like this in the county um does.

A

You know we're very focused on this, but you know I wanna. That was a really good question. um The.

A

I I do know the process when we want to develop on a piece of property and he's got to go through you.

A

Know the trc and go through all the different. You know uh you know decision. You know, process.

A

um And it may get caught up, you know whether it's traffic or something but.

A

This is where subjectivity comes into play and the community gets very concerned.

A

That you know where there's a will there's a way, and um I I'm known to say just because you can.

A

Doesn't mean you should in many cases, but when there's a will there's a way, especially when it.

A

Comes to development, and if it can't be this it'll be that. So if we open up the the spectrum of what.

A

C3 can provide and it can't do a specific project. It can turn into another project. You know we just.

A

Had this conversation a week or so ago, with another piece of property, they want the intent.

A

Is to do this, but you open up that door. They can do that capability or they can do a whole lot more.

A

And that's really what we're we're focused on is, and I'm very um you know, aware of and keen.

A

To the communities concern that you know uh just because you can doesn't mean you should, but if.

A

There's a will there's a way and they don't want like. I don't want over development in an area that.

A

Doesn't need that or doesn't meet that um so, uh but but I do know the levels I.

A

Mean I I understand that um that's what we're dealing with I mean, and it's and.

A

The community has a voice as they should so. um Okay, what else? Any any comments, questions.

A

I mean this is our time, but okay, okay, thank you. Thank you, mr stein. Just briefly, commissioners, I.

S

I do want to distinguish it from that case last week, because this is a commercial use.

S

Requested to go to another commercial use, so in many ways it's very different and I.

S

I I think that if you look down that use, chart and look at the differences and and what changes.

S

Here as a result of c3 ignoring a business park potential, what you'll see predominantly is that.

S

Uses change from conditional to permitted and really not that it opens up a bunch of greater.

S

Uses there's much less changes because of the c2 to c3 request here, so I would just encourage you.

S

To to breeze through the use chart too, if there are questions there and I'm happy to answer any.

A

um Very fair, thank you. I would next like to call mr jack lyburn, hiding in the back.

I

Good afternoon- and this is this is not- this has nothing to do with whom, but he is a witness, but.

D

He wasn't here when you swear everybody in. Oh, thank you for thank you for pointing that.

S

Up so if you stand up not that, I don't believe everything he says. You know, uh mr.

P

Leibard, you swear affirmed that the testimony you're about to give is true. Yes, thank you.

A

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you for pointing that out. I appreciate that mr lyburn, can you please.

S

State, your name and your address for the record uh john lyburn uh 225 north center street westminster.

K

Two one one: five: seven, and what is your current employment and position? Please, uh director of.

K

Economic development for carroll county- are you familiar with st john properties very much so.

S

Have you been heavily involved since the inception of liberty exchange? uh Yes,.

S

And are you familiar with the property that we're talking about here today? Very much so yes.

S

Can you tell us whether, in your opinion, c3 zoning on these parcels would further the county's goal.

S

Of encouraging economic development yeah it's a easy answer, but a longer answer: liberty, exchange.

K

Has been one of the most successful projects we've had in carroll, county and you're talking about.

K

You're talking about a premier developer, who we work with very closely and flexibility, is, is the.

K

Is the really the question and c3 gives us more flexibility than than the c2? The the nice thing.

K

The greatest thing about working with at st john or the st john properties is they do build spec.

K

Buildings, they build spec buildings and when we we see clients, we really don't have a lot of.

K

Inventory- and they have the inventory so c3 gives us the more flexibility that we would need, and I.

K

Really believe this, you know, be a mirror image of um you know, liberty exchange and I think it's very.

K

Beneficial for the county to have another project like that another tool in our tool chest, so we can.

K

Take we can take projects to them, you know with spec buildings. So yes, I do agree with should be c3.

K

That was a longer answered, a new, simple question. I appreciate that.

S

um Summation um that was my only questions of mr liburn. Any questions.

A

Okay, you finally got him under oath. This was your chance, so many things we can, but we do.

A

Want to move this along, so I'm always on the road. Thank you, okay. Thank you.

S

That concludes my testimony in the case. Okay, thank you. Are there any other questions for.

A

Me schaefer: okay, do we have uh public uh comes uh first off? Thank you so much.

A

um Chris is there anyone on the line? I have no one on the line. Oh thank you roberta. How many public.

A

Comments, do we have two okay, um elizabeth russell microphone and state your name and address, and.

V

Hello hi, I'm elizabeth russell. I live at 6016 emerald lane, which is the conservation area.

V

Okay, so I noticed 11 suits, walk into this room at the precise time that we're going to talk about.

V

This so they probably missed in regards to earlier, when you mentioned the history of the courthouse.

V

And you place value in the histories of our great county in 2010, the census of sykesville was 4436.

V

And in 2016 budgettravel.com named sykesville, the coolest small town in america, you mentioned.

V

That there's a mistake with the rezoning but becoming more efficient, more efficient.

V

Does not mean that we've created a mistake in our county and in sykesville, larger roadways actually.

V

Reduce volume and traffic within the area, so there's less people in a certain amount of time.

V

As regards to in the individual individual to common aka, you bought a lot of different areas.

V

To combine to one to create a massive structure, it's not appropriate in this area, backed up to.

V

A conservation area, this conservation area has horses that frequent the trails in that.

V

Area, it's also known as old liberty road, so we all have a historical component to that.

V

There was a lot of information discussed in that 22 page packet that you guys had, and I have chicken scratch.

V

I'm a registered nurse at johns hopkins, so I don't have a suit.

V

And when I'm not doing that, I wear combat boots in the united states army.

V

My husband's a law enforcement officer and being that we live in that conservation area.

V

And backed up to this c3, you know big component infrastructure. Stresses me out right now. My kids.

V

Four and three can go outside without the fear that they're going to get run over by a car.

V

I I'm afraid of the high traffic and high efficiency area that they're concerned and making.

V

It will cause pollution and not just the pollution of smog from cars, but also light.

V

And noise pollution- sometimes I have to sleep during the day. I can't have construction going on.

V

And that's only going to be the short term, then I'm going to have consistent car traffic.

V

I can go outside in my yard right now and see the stars so many stars, but with a whole.

V

uh Liberty, um what was it called liberty exchange like facility? I'm gonna lose a lot of that.

V

And you also talked about creating a larger intersection, so now there's going to be a.

V

Higher traffic congestion area at that site, because you're adding more to it.

V

So you're zoning: how did I write this? You originally bought liberty exchange and it's.

V

A wonderful it's, a wonderful structure. I use it it's great. However, it's only.

V

We made comments that there is no other c3 zoning, so if you keep continue to compare.

V

Your new property to liberty exchange. Why do you need to create that c3 property.

V

I don't think the neighborhoods support this at all conservation or just church or.

V

Families, thank you.

V

A couple just comments: um thank you for your service.

A

And I'm very familiar with emerald lane, my daughter rides horses or used to ride horses.

A

All the time uh for her horse on those trails, and um so I'm very familiar.

A

You brought up very good, solid points, and I appreciate that. Are there any questions comments.

A

Appreciate if you have any, I do not. Thank you. Thank you. So much.

C

Chris vaughn is the only other. Thank you for the thank you for the opportunity, thanks for.

W

The opportunity to make uh speak to you all commissioners about this and I'm not going.

W

To speak nearly as eloquent as miss russell, I was very impressed by that. um I do find the.

W

Argument with the c2 to c3 to be very, very much a bait and switch the properties were bought.

W

As sea-doo properties, they knew it when they bought them. Now they want to rezone it to c3.

W

I part of the neighborhood. I don't support the development of it. Ultimately, my property.

W

Backs up to property which backs up to it, and uh I moved to carroll county.

W

Because I wanted a safe place to live, we're great schools, carroll county is.

W

A beautiful place, mr kyler, said it's great. You said that in the beginning, remember that.

W

And ultimately, I just don't see the value in it. We have seven vape shops, 11, liquor stores. I want.

W

To say 18 gas stations and some other stuff, the county is growing eldersburg, specifically.

W

Is growing at less than one percent on an annual basis about point six: nine percent, since the 2020.

W

Census, I don't see that doing being a significant growth margin to warrant such another complex.

W

Like liberty exchange, what are we gonna get five below some other garbage stores? Don't.

W

Think it's necessary. I also am concerned with the impact to the environment, even if there is sewer.

W

Associated with it from light noise pollution as miss russell brought up, but also what about.

W

The other things that happen in addition to it, if it was to go forward, is there an escrow.

W

Account to account for the environmental impact of it, because it does back up to conservation.

W

Land which does back up to piney run, which all impacts my water under the ground that I use so.

W

I'm tremendously concerned with this development: all it takes is driving. You know, 15 minutes, east.

W

Another county, another town, not going to cite it, but I don't want to live. There appreciate the.

W

Opportunity to speak absolutely, um mr vaughn, thank you for the comments and understand um when you're.

A

Talking about vape shops, are you talking about in eldersburg or in the county eldersburg? Okay,.

A

um I had no idea, I yeah, I don't get vaping anyway, so I I agree with you. um I don't either and I mean.

W

That's a troubling indicator and you know I think we can all agree. More people creates more crime.

W

More problems, more pollution agree. The good thing is we're doing really well and that's.

A

Correct our sheriff's department and district nine down in our area is very good and I wanna.

A

Keep it that way, just as you do so uh more of a statement than questions, does anybody have any.

A

Questions or comments man, one more thing, sir. um I want eldersburg like that emblem on the behind you.

W

That's what I want, I don't want a skyscraper okay.

A

Appreciate it no problem. Thank you, commissioner. I'm sorry, I just had one question. I apologize.

A

Mr farmland, please come back up absolutely mr vaughn. I apologize if I missed it, but could you.

S

Please state your address: 5715 white rock road sixth house down teal mailbox, can't miss it. Yep.

A

No, it will so right at your house, but the road yeah. So are we able to ask a previous witness.

B

I mean I think that question was was pretty. uh I think it was a pretty sailing question that the.

B

Per the property was purchased knowingly as c2, and now the desire is to upgrade it to c3. And while I.

B

Understand that there are arguments that are being made about whether or not there was a mistake in.

B

Zoning, the substantial change of the neighborhood that sort of thing: what is the motive, the the.

B

Underlying foundational motive to want to change it from c2 to c3 other than simply that, oh well,.

B

We think there was a mistake in the zoning or that there was a substantial change in the neighborhood.

S

Mr vigliati I'll take a shot at that one and I'll. Let somebody else chime in if they disagree with.

S

Me um I appreciate you recognizing the two legal arguments or the two principal legal arguments.

S

In terms of change or mistake, but right now a business park which again I understand that we.

S

Are here requesting c3, so there's no way for you to commit us to a business park, but the.

S

Only district that a business park is allowed to develop in under the code is c3 district.

B

And, and so I guess that that begs and I'm promised I'm trying to be argumentative or disagreeable or.

B

Anything, but I guess that that begs the question that that, if, if this is what the developers.

B

Originally sought, then: why did they decide to go with the land that they went with to purchase.

S

Well, I I can't get into their head for that one. So I'm not gonna even try to answer that. One.

S

um But if mr you know mr pilon wants to take a stab at it, I can recall him if you would.

S

Prefer me to, but that one I can't I've used. One ticket is a business decision either way.

B

Well, I guess are: are you comfortable with that being the answer that it's.

B

Just a business decision that this is how you want to proceed.

B

It's up to you yeah, yes, I I would call mr thomas pilon again.

S

Oh, thank you probably. I think you should introduce yourself at least again for the record thomas.

T

Pilon, st john properties executive. Vice president development, thank you so if I understood the.

T

Question the question was: why did we buy it when it was c2, zoned and now proposing to rezone it to.

T

C3, um I think the simple answer is we: when we look, we we knew what we wanted to do. I think, as far as.

T

The development of the property we liked what we did at liberty exchange. We thought we could mimic.

T

That over here and you know we're in the business of doing development, it's not outside the um kind.

T

Of realm of normal business operations to say, you're going to take a property and reposition it.

T

Sometimes we do that where we acquire an existing property, that's already developed and it's not.

T

Getting I mentioned before market rents and things like that, and you do something to reposition the.

T

Property, you go in and you put investment in the you know: re-face the building redo, the interior.

T

Of the buildings and things like that, we took a building in baltimore city several years ago.

T

That sits right on 95 and it 20 percent, leased and uh and so out of a five-story building one floor.

T

Basically was occupied and we got renovated the whole building made some changes to. We tore out.

T

The existing windows and made larger windows and things like that. We modernized the building and.

T

It's now a stable building, which means it's got 90 occupancy in it. So sometimes you you purchase.

T

Something and it's not quite positioned, exactly right and you try to get it there and you know.

T

Do the type of development like as investors that we'd like to do so, and so I guess I could simplify.

T

That by saying it's a business decision but yeah right strategy, I get that, but but your intent.

B

Coming in was that you were going, you wanted to develop it in this capacity, despite the fact that.

B

It had the designation that it did yeah I mean we just saw the potential for it and yep yeah.

B

And how often does that typically happen that you say okay, well, we're gonna! You know we see that.

B

That you know the the plot of land over here could really work well as a movie theater or whatever.

B

The case is- and this is you know, even though it's not zoned for this- this is what we think it could.

B

Be used for and we're going to try to to take a go at it right. um So as an example, baltimore.

T

County baltimore county does a comprehensive rezoning every four years and in my years that.

T

I've been with st john, it's my 26th year, um every four years, we're taking something that we already.

T

Own and we're probably and we're repositioning some portion of the property as an example, we.

T

Have a series of properties that run along york, road from the beltway out to hunt valley and over.

T

The years the front portions of those properties that were industrially zoned, we we changed to.

T

Commercial zones and it brought that flexibility that I, when I talk about flex buildings and I talk.

T

About flexibility, I'm talking about two different things, but it brought that variety that allowed.

T

Us to address the concerns and the needs of our tenants, which is we want some convenience here.

T

So we don't have to get in our car and drive down the road to get lunch. We just walk to.

T

The front of the community and get a sandwich or something like that, so it's pretty pretty.

T

Commonly used tool along with you, know, tweaks to the zoning code, and things like that, so it's.

T

As I mentioned before, what I do this is the kind of stuff that I do on a relatively regular basis.

T

Yeah well, thank you very much sure you're. Welcome! I'm sorry! I'm sorry go ahead! Well, yeah, because I.

D

Want a a little bit of what he asked too, um this is four parcels, and I know it's in here probably.

D

And I could look at the deeds. Did you buy them all four at the same time, or was it staggered on.

D

The same day, you hope you bought all four we put them. It was two different. um It was four.

T

Different owners, yes, I think three of them were related and one was not, um and we put them all.

T

Under contract uh three and one, but we closed on the same day, purchased them all at once. Yes,.

F

Sorry, no, no, I did the did. The fairly recent change in sewer and water allocation have a.

F

Play a role in wanting to go to c3 and mike, and am I characterizing that accurately okay, I want.

F

To make sure um we uh did the well, we actually petitioned to have it brought into the public.

T

Sewer yeah, so it was part of, as I mentioned before, kind of a uh strategy on how to invest.

T

In the property, it was part of our request. Thank you suffer, I know supper, but part of the.

A

Okay, any other questions or comments statements. Thank you, sir. um Thank you sure.

A

Somebody have a question for one of the witnesses. Oh you that was funny yeah.

B

That was the question yeah. Sorry, thank you. Thank you, commissioner. Okay, I think we're.

A

We're done unless you want to make any further comments. I did just want to make.

S

A brief summation statement, if I could please uh thank you, we appreciate your time here today.

S

um The case that you've, seen before you presents a strong, we would advocate a strong change uh in the.

S

Character of the neighborhood or a mistake case: we we think that we've proven both, but we understand.

S

And respect the staff report, which leans towards the change in the character of the neighborhood.

S

You have seen uh through all of the exhibits here, as well as the staff report and all the.

S

Other presentations and also heard testimony today about the two primary factors which.

S

um Mr vigliotti nicely kind of surmised as well that support this, namely the change to.

S

The sewer service area and the common ownership of the four parcels, these really provide a much.

S

Different opportunity than was present initially here in analyzing this for rezoning. We understand.

S

That you know you have to look to see whether there's enough evidence to prove a change or.

S

Mistake and then you take the next step at looking at what zoning to district is actually appropriate.

S

If that first level is met, so I'd suggest to you that that first level has absolutely been met. Your.

S

Staffer report that you have in front of you kind of reiterates that and sets forth those arguments.

S

So in in looking at what district is appropriate, I respect and I appreciate the community comments.

S

That were made here today. I would remind you, as I did earlier, that this requested change is from c2.

S

To c3, this would be a much different request before you. If we were asking to change this.

S

Property from residential to commercial, but this is a lesser change if you will and if you look in.

S

That legal memorandum also there's kind of a note of that in one of the cases that even talks about.

S

um Almost a different standard, if you will, when you're, changing the zoning from a like.

S

Use to a like use versus something entirely different, you heard uh from staff and from.

S

Us that the planning commissioner and the planning commission uh excuse me- and this.

S

Board and the previous board of commissioners have consistently recognized these properties.

S

As appropriate for commercial development, you'll see that on the timeline in the in the previous.

S

Comprehensive rezonings and the comprehensive buy request phase. uh I'll also note that the.

S

Property to the west, if you look at the freedom community comprehensive plan that is also noted.

S

As a future, land use designation of commercial medium too, it just hasn't been zoned that way. Yet.

S

um The I I did briefly want to address commissioner vigliotti's one question.

S

About other c3 districts that a but residential, because I think even if you look I mean you heard.

S

Testimony from mr stein that there are several throughout the county instances of this, and I.

S

Think if you did an aerial, you would see that as well, but even just on this zoning map, that is.

S

Part of this packet, you can see several. This is not that's, not a unique situation in our county.

S

um I appreciate mr lyburn's testimony and and agree with him that c3 zoning district here allows.

S

For a higher and better use of this property with increased employment opportunities that come with.

S

That I think, if you saw individual c2 development of these four parcels, it would not be as appealing.

S

As a cohesive development that c3 would allow here, I I understand- and I've said it several times that.

S

We have told you our intent is to develop this with a business park, but that's one of the uses.

S

Allowed in c3, but I would further say that the business park provision specifically of.

S

The code also requires this many of the same things that liberty exchange requires in the.

S

Sense of a common development plan- that's cohesive, so that creates that park-like feel that you see.

S

At liberty exchange this c3 is compatible with the surrounding area. You've heard testimony you.

S

Can see on the maps and by analyzing the uses of that area. So we think that this meets the legal.

S

Standard and then to take it a step further. That c3 is the appropriate zoning district here and.

S

Would ask for this board's approval of the request today. Thank you, okay, thank you. um So we have.

A

Two actions to take one is an action to close the public hearing at this time.

A

And then the second action is to either make a decision now or allow us to think.

A

Through this and make a decision in the near future uh about the request, we've done both.

A

um You know whether we make a decision the day of or in the near future, um so.

A

First step: do I have a motion to close the public hearing at this time and the record.

A

And the record, thank you. I move the public hearing and the record in this case be closed.

A

Do I have a second second? Okay, I got a motion. I got a second any discussion on that. Seen here.

A

None all in favor all right. Okay, now we have a decision to make whether we want to make a.

A

Motion uh well, regardless we're going to make a motion on deciding to either approve or disapprove.

A

The request for c2 to c3 or a decision to make that decision at a later date.

B

Personally, I'd kind of like to wait, I mean we got a lot of information more so than we did two.

B

Weeks ago about this, and I would feel a lot more comfortable having time to to review this rather.

B

Than you know, just having it hand in that's no offense to anybody here that you know we just.

B

Got this today I mean personally, I would feel a lot more comfortable having the time to so. I take.

A

That, as professional as well and you're, making a motion, I will make emotions who, what would the.

B

Proper way to to postpone the decision to not necessarily postpone but make a decision and.

A

Schedule it at a near future, whether can we just say march 9th, and then everyone knows when the.

C

Decision will be made if that's okay and I take it march. 9Th is a thursday, it's a thursday okay. So I.

D

Make a motion at the decision day be scheduled on march 9th. Second, second, dad a few seconds is that.

A

Okay with you, yes thank you. You took away your motion. That's okay! That's wrote it for me. I'm.

B

Just saying well, you're good at subcontracting is there any? Is there any any discussion on that.

A

Seen here and none again, thank you all for uh all of the information you provided.

A

uh All in favor aye, okay, thank you so much. Thank you.

A

And I apologize.

A

I've got a plane to catch, I know so that means commissioner kyler is in charge in charge.

D

So do we need to do anything to say that he's leaving and I'm now we just need to.

D

Do it so item six uh public comment on additional fees for construction.

D

Administration services related to charles carroll, community center.

X

Good morning, commissioners, good morning afternoon, are you actually afternoon good.

X

Afternoon good afternoon, carrie from the office of procurement is going to introduce.

X

Our request good morning, commissioners, good morning: yes, I'm sorry good afternoon.

Y

The office of procurement, in conjunction with the bureau of building construction request, your.

Y

Approval to increase the contract to me more ponte mueller in the amount of 24 790 to provide for the.

Y

Additional construction administration services related to the charles carroll community center.

Y

This amount is within the adopted budget and no additional funds will be necessary.

Z

Good afternoon, commissioners, my name is kirk angle: project manager, with bureau of building.

Z

Construction with me is john bowers bureau, chief of building construction and also in.

Z

The back is deputy director eric burdine. As kerry had stated, the bureau of building construction is.

Z

Here before you today to request board approval for additional construction administration funds.

Z

With memoir ponte mallor, architects and engineers llc, this will allow the architect of record to see.

Z

The project through final construction, final inspections and any punch list items that may.

Z

Be created during our final walk through the construction period has exceeded the amount of.

Z

Time which was initially assumed when contracting with the architect approval of these funds are.

Z

Necessary to continue the architect of record myanmar ponte mallor services through the end of.

Z

This project, the cost for additional construction administration, is 24 979, and this is within.

Z

Project budget, no additional funds are required. We're happy to answer any questions you may have.

E

I have a quick question, so I was reading this and obviously it says the construction periods.

E

Extended the amount of time that was initially assumed how far of an extension has this been.

Z

It's been about three four months, three or four months, and are we looking at.

E

Any potential situations we're going to be extending further past this, or is this where.

E

We're going to be in this as a not projected at this time. The only thing that has held us.

Z

Back as construction started in last year of march has been supply and chain issues.

Z

I understand compass generator things of that sort, so we are very close to actual turnover of.

Z

This building we're still constructing, as as we go along each day, but the beginning of april is.

Z

Our projected walkthrough of the building- okay- and I was just I was just curious as to whether.

E

We might be, you know, seeing additional extensions on that or not so. Okay. Thank you! Yes, sir, and and.

D

You set a figure, but I couldn't- and maybe you answered my question but I'll ask it anyway.

D

um What was the original budget for this, and what is the total amount going to be.

D

Spent now, and do you expect any other change orders, or is this potentially the last one.

X

Specifically, commissioner, is that, with in respect to general change, orders or with.

X

Respect to the the consulting side of the project, the architecture, everything.

X

um We, as kirk said we don't anticipate any additional requests for extensions.

X

For the architect or the other consultants on the project team um being a construction project, there.

X

Things that do happen over time that are unplanned, unexpected unanticipated, but as we're nearing the.

X

Completion of the project, our expectation for any future potential change orders is fairly minimal.

X

If that's a fair statement, there's none pending right now that you know of and.

D

Does and- and I knew you're near the end, so you I wouldn't ask us in the middle of the.

D

Job I've been on the other side of the fence. We always want change orders, um but uh so you're.

D

Saying you think no more, do you know that you have any idea the total budget now of this job.

X

You have that figure handicap, if not that's yeah total contract to date is 5.7.

Z

5 million seven hundred fifty eight thousand, I'm sorry say that again: 5 million 758.

Z

000., commissioners, that is, that is just the construction budget.

AA

um The I don't have the actual overall budget. It's it's seven point something million seven.

Z

Points, that's what I thought yeah 7.2 is the overall is the total. I'm sorry. I misunderstood.

AA

And to maybe maybe address your your question a little further um every project we do anticipate.

AA

Construction change orders on, as you know, um and so between construction change, orders and.

AA

The architect change order. We've got in front of you today and the additional costs that we have as.

AA

The owner, such as buying the furniture buying you know a audio visual tons of things that go into a.

AA

Construction project that the owner us as carroll county is the owners representative pay for.

AA

um We hold a 10 contingency on that budget when we, when we come to you to approve a project like this.

AA

uh We're well within that budget. We believe we'll be giving money back at the end of this project.

D

Thanks thanks and I probably didn't ask a good question, commissioner, I would like to point out.

Y

um There is a typo on the briefing paper, the actual amount, and I just checked. The quote- is.

Y

24 979 dollars, not twenty four thousand seven. Ninety, so it's not so it's 970. Is it it's a.

Y

Twenty four thousand nine hundred seventy nine dollars: seventy nine dollars: seventy nine okay.

Z

Nine seven nine correct and- and can I any other questions can I can I ask just a little bit more.

B

About this specifically- and forgive me if I'm I'm somewhat naive about this, so I I you know.

B

I worked for years doing uh home improvement work with my dad and, and you know we would go to a job.

B

And uh you know a home depot or some place didn't, have something right. We wouldn't just go to the.

B

Job and- and you know, do nothing and think we would get paid for it. We would go do something else. So.

B

I guess my question is: is given that there were supply chain issues which necessitated that that.

B

Delay in construction, uh where is this money being used? I mean what is this? How is this coming into.

B

Effect, why is this the case that that you know the supply chain necessitates the additional money.

AA

So good question um it is, it has delayed the construction period, and so, if you understand we, we.

AA

Have hired this architect well before we knew what the construction period was going to be, so we had.

AA

A certain amount that we thought a certain amount of many months that we thought the construction.

AA

Was going to take place, so that's what we hired the architect to do. That's that certain amount.

AA

Since the project was bid by the contractor, we found okay well they've, already they've.

AA

Already anticipated that there's not that there's nothing going on, there's still construction going.

AA

On the general contractor isn't hitting us with any additional weeks he has planned for that. So.

AA

I guess that's the difference is it we had to assume what the construction period was going.

AA

To be with the architect before, we knew there was ever going to be supply chains, supply chain.

AA

Issues, so this change is all for the architect. That's correct. Okay, that's correct, correct yeah,.

D

That makes sense it it does. But again I again and please forgive me again if I'm just not so again,.

B

If I'm the architect and there's the delay, that's happening, and my construction crews.

B

Aren't working, I am still getting paid, even though they're not working. Am I getting that.

B

Right or what's this or not, the construction crews have been working the entire time. Okay,.

B

Despite the supply chain issue, that's correct, there's been other there's been plenty of other.

AA

Things to do and they've kept going, they just changed what they were doing. Okay, all right.

AA

And the contractor recognized that before we even hired him that he had an extended period.

AA

Of time that he was going to be constructing the project, unfortunately, we didn't anticipate that.

AA

When we hired the architect all right, thank you very much now now that makes sense right. So the.

AA

Architect still shows up at the meetings every week on an extended construction period, not our.

AA

Way we do it by a week. Let me know, I'm sorry, no, no, that now it makes sense. Thank you very much.

D

Any other questions I think, I'm good.

B

Motion to award the increase of the contract to the charles carroll community center to.

B

And mimar ponte miller to say that right, yes, yes in the amount of 24 979 dollars. Second.

D

Any discussion further I'll lose in favor aye.

X

Thank you, commissioners appreciate your time this afternoon. Thank you, sir. Thank you.

D

Okay item seven public possible nuisance ordinant and commissioner gordon yes, thank you.

E

um So what technically we left the word out, but it would technically be possible. It should be.

E

A nuisance, uh establishment ordinance, but um uh one of the challenges we've been having.

E

Significantly in the last couple years is our law enforcement being heavily utilized to deal with.

E

Businesses and having to make multiple multiple calls. I have a uh an email. I want to read all of.

E

You from sheriff louise regarding this topic, and he says, quote over the past several years: we've.

E

Seen a miserable uptick in calls for service at several area, retail stores and hotels and motels.

E

From theft to drug activity, certain establishments or accounting for behalf of the calls of service.

E

In some areas of the county, for example, one patrol area in december of 2022 had two retail stores.

E

That accounted for 54 percent of all the calls of service and that entire patrol area, which covers.

E

Approximately 40 square miles we've also been experiencing narcotics distribution, drug overdoses,.

E

And other related criminal activity at air, hotels and motels for significant resources from the.

E

Sheriff's department, state police and westminster police department are used on a daily basis to.

E

Combat this several of these establishments have turned a blind eye on the issue, while others are.

E

Hampered by corporate policies that keep store managers from being more proactive to stop theft.

E

And other criminal activity- and it continues on this statement- this ordinance would give law.

E

Enforcement and prosecutors, another tool and the ability to address those, the attorney blind eye.

E

On criminal activity and large corporations that put profits over the safety of their employees.

E

And law-abiding customers shopping at these establishments. That's! For this reason I wanted.

E

To bring this up this morning and I'd like to move that the board of county commissioners direct care.

E

County attorney to consult with county sheriff and state's attorney to determine if local legislation.

E

Is warranted and how it could be affected and addressing this problem to abate nuisance-based.

E

Law and law enforcement calls regarding these types of premises. Second, is there a second second.

D

um Could you describe to us if we pass this? What's the potential process, I mean this would include a.

D

Public hearing and a a lot of items correct: yes, if you, if the motion passes I'll, consult with.

P

State's attorney's office and the sheriff's office and say what are you guys looking for.

P

You know, and what can we come up with legally that will that will address your concerns.

P

We'll then come back to you with a draft of an ordinance and and say this is what we've come.

P

Up with, if you like what you see we'll, send it out to a public hearing, it has to be advertised.

P

In the newspaper there'll be a public hearing, people get a chance to comment on it and at.

P

The end of that you'll you'll uh you'll be asked whether you want to adopt the ordinance or not so.

D

Any questions or comments. Well, I uh I commend commissioner gordon for taking this initiative.

F

uh You know I mean I've alluded to this before, but you know we're in a unique position as a.

F

County we're not the wealthiest county in the state, we're not the poorest county in the state.

F

We've got to find new and innovative ways to move into the future uh I've. This is sort of.

F

A classy example in my mind, of of the third way that we're going to have to embark on. I think, a.

F

Lot of counties would just turn around and say: well, we need to raise taxes and hire more police.

F

Or some counties that didn't have the resources would just give up and if we're going to be.

F

Successful moving into the future, I think it's going to be things like this, where we say hold.

F

On a second, we don't have to penalize the entire county and we're not trying to run.

F

People out we're not trying to run businesses out, but those are some pretty astounding statistics. I.

F

Mean clearly, the sheriff's department spending most of their time in the same areas. So why not.

F

Why not take that route? So I appreciate the initiative I wish it had been my idea, but.

F

It wasn't, I wish I had thought of it. Commissioner garen. I completely agree with you and commissioner.

B

Gordon, I commend you as well for this, and uh you know this this. You know to your point, commissioner.

B

Garen, it's not that you're trying to to run a business out, but trying to make them be a more.

B

Responsible member of the community in which they exist, you know you know whether you are a resident.

B

Or whether you are a business you're part of the fabric of this community- and uh you know.

B

You certainly have to take responsibility at some point, and so I think this is a. This is a good step.

D

Any more discussion, all those in favor I I opposed and I'd like to um for the public.

D

The last two votes have been four zero, because one member is absent now a question since it's.

D

1 15, I assume we're not going to win to close and reconvene at one. So what's the time frame.

C

It was legal, so I'm saying I'd say you have a close for legal advice after so we're going.

D

To do that now and then, when we, when will we reconvene open that will be up to the board.

C

We could apologize and ask the folks to come back at a later date. We could pick it a time 2 to 30.

B

I would suggest apologizing to those who are here to present and say to.

B

Come back another time, because I have no idea how long closed legal will end up taking and would not be fair to them to continue to expect them to wait. If.

B

We had no idea, so I would just you know respectfully say maybe you know next week.

F

Did everybody agree with that? I concur. That is a great. That is a great point. I.

E

Think it's unfortunately, probably the best at this point today and and so before. We.

D

um Adjourn this to go into close, we need to go through the agenda.

D

And uh everybody should have it in front of them. um Monday february 20th uh 5 pm is district. Five.

D

Night in annapolis, gordon collar and vigliotti show, is going and um they've invited a lot of.

D

People and they do want rsvps to plan, but I'm sure you could still rsvp if you wanted.

D

um Tuesday, planning and zoning commission commissioner gordon.

D

2 p.m: veterans; advisory meeting with commissioners, gordon and kyler.

D

715 commissioner kyler's meeting with rhys volunteer fire company wednesday 9 30 a.m is mako.

D

And the plan right now is to do that.

D

In annapolis, um commissioner, kyler and rothstein would be there did we get a an invite to be part.

D

Of a parks advisory board meeting, yes, which day was that, like march 26th, okay, so that's.

D

Not that doesn't interfere with this schedule yet. Thank you. Thank you, we'll be there before.

C

You know it, but not yet again, we'll be there before you know it it'll be quick enough, but.

D

Not next week, thursday february 23rd 8 a.m, board of county commissioners, close administrative 10.

D

A.M: board of commanding commissions, open um item, one department, update circuit court item two.

D

Legislative update item three: the arc of carroll county department, update item four.

D

Carroll county youth service bureau department, update item five carroll county public schools.

D

Department update item six university of maryland extension department, update.

D

Item seven flying colors of success department, update item eight.

D

Rape crisis intervention service at carroll, county department, update.

D

Is there any proposed change to our open meeting? I would I mean I'm looking at this now and again.

B

Just being as respectful as possible, I know a lot of the presentations we've been having keep.

B

Running over, we have what eight presentations that morning, plus a close land acquisition.

B

Session then we have the public hearing on the solar moratorium. That evening I would.

B

Recommend getting rid of it or not getting rid of, but postponing possibly four of those.

B

Presentations again, knowing that they tend to go over knowing that they tend to. If we tend to ask.

B

Questions and again, knowing that we have the uh the the closed session for land acquisition in the.

C

Legislative update too, and the legislative update too, but we'll keep that keep that everybody say.

F

The the suggestion makes sense to me. It does look like it is a steep I I I mean the point being. We.

F

Just we are just keeping people waiting. Sometimes I know- and uh that is a great point- to bring up.

F

We do have to be respectful of that. I don't know the answer. I don't know how to fix that, though, but.

B

So we could ask uh those under items five, six, seven and eight uh to postpone for a week.

B

um And obviously I mean depending on, if you don't mind, we'll just move those who are who.

C

Are available we'll move we'll only keep it to four, but we'll just see who's who needs to go next.

C

Week, yeah yeah, that's that's totally: okay, yeah and determine which ones right and then we'll move the.

B

The obviously the closed portion right up to the the back of that to work four department updates.

D

Plus legislative, correct and the closed land acquisition, yes, enclosed, acquaintances, closed.

D

Land acquisition, but we'll tell you we'll if you don't mind linking it up to us. Yes, yeah. I think.

D

Yeah like like these guys, have said: we've uh we seem to make some people wait. So whatever works.

D

Out best for for how to fill it in um and 6 p.m, is the public hearing solar moratorium.

D

Down in the reagan, room room, zero, three and we all plan to be there friday, saturday, nothing.

D

um Sunday- and I may I may need to sub some of this as my uh podcast.

D

Any other changes to that week.

D

Okay, monday february 27th um mako aurora county 6 30 in the evening westminster city hall, 7 p.m.

D

Intermedium, commissioner, gordon tuesday, former students of robert moton reception.

D

9 a.m: wednesday, mako and again, commissioner rusty now probably do that in annapolis.

D

um Running and zoning for commissioner gordon at 6 pm now thursday.

D

I'm just I just glance down the agenda.

D

So 10 a.m: board of county commissioners open session after the 8 a.m, closed administrative.

D

Item one legislative update item two personal care service awarding of vendor item three ems billing.

D

Item four pinch valley, road, closing item: five payment management program; item six.

D

The county npdes program and permit department.

D

Any concerns or comments on those six items.

D

And then close for land acquisition, friday, saturday, clear and sunday as commissioner gordon's podcast.

D

Any corrections changes we're okay, yes, we're good, oh good. For me, yeah.

B

Thank you now we need a motion to totally adjourn open session and go into closed.

D

Yeah, I would make a motion to go to closed for legal advice first and then a motion to adjourn.

C

After that yeah yeah, okay, so I entertain a motion to go into close legal advice. Second,.

D

Any more discussion, all those favor all right now I entertain a motion to adjourn the open meeting.

D

Thank you all these in favor aye aye. Thank you all.