CHAOSS DEI Working Group, 19 Aug 2020

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From YouTube: CHAOSS.Diversity&Inclusion.August.19.2020

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CHAOSS.Diversity&Inclusion.August.19.2020

A

Record button welcome everyone to our chaos, diversity and inclusion. Working group meeting on august 19 2020.

A

A

Our first item of the agenda is to determine who would like to be facilitator next week who volunteer would like to volunteer.

A

We always like to rotate it and keep this fresh and exciting and new.

B

I thought I was facilitating last week or this week, so I think it's appropriate to facilitate next week.

A

All right, thank you. Matt.

A

If you want to facilitate this week, I'm happy to thank you.

B

If you want to facilitate next week,.

A

Okay, deal I'll step down today and sign myself.

B

Did that just that just flipped, I guess so.

A

B

I was all prepared for it anyway, uh so um hi everybody welcome to the dni working group meeting.

B

um So our first item, a second item of the day, is um to congratulate jaya um for obtaining the season of ducks mentorship coming up here. um Yeah, congratulations!.

C

Congratulations, dalia.

A

Congratulations. Everyone.

B

That was just a short item I wanted to put in here to say thanks.

D

So I just I'll I'll add to that show you. This is the. I think the first month is the community bonding period.

C

Yes, it's on to uh september the uh 13th or 14th. I think.

D

Okay, um so typically you know, as I I think I I uh told josh karat, the other season of dioxide student. um We all know you so I think you're at an advantage, so um you've been participating and certainly been around in all of these discussions. So I guess my recommendation is just keep doing what you're doing people have thoughts on that, but.

C

D

Yeah um we do matt, you have a badging like a kind of a weekly meet up. Is that right.

B

Yes, um if anybody would like an invite to that, we're always glad to take people too. um I I think jay has been attending a lot of our weekly sunday meetings and wednesday meetings. Okay, um but we're always welcoming anybody to come to that so cool yeah.

B

uh Okay. Our next item is the open demographics, um who has that in there.

D

um That was me, so I did reach out to emma you know just about um so just again so people remember there was a github repository with respect to open demographics, which are the I'm looking at taunton at the moment.

D

It was like distracting me um anyway, uh so about maintaining a repository which has some really great information that people can use to gather demographic data, and the concern was is that we haven't been able to really communicate with the original maintainers real well, and I don't think the repository has been updated recently or not even like long ago recently.

D

So just as a as a working group, we'd really hate to lose the momentum that was built around this repository and the excellent work that's done in it. So I reached out to emma to kind of ask how she thinks we might move forward with maintaining this information, um and she agreed that probably just forking. It is not the best approach, you know just kind of, maybe um from being, I don't know just maybe not the best approach, just forking it and being done with it.

D

So um she had suggested creating- and it's kind of in this list here- creating a chaos repository and slowly slowly, porting over some of the work kind of piece by piece.

D

D

Then kind of working, starting with what we feel is complete in the repository. So george, I don't know if you've spent or anybody spent a lot of time in terms of um if some of the demographic items feel more complete than others. I know that some always had some discussion, but maybe some kind of done.

A

Yeah, I don't have an overview right now. It would. I would approach this by going to the.

E

A

Tracker and see what discussions are open that haven't.

E

A

Addressed yet- and I would take that as a starting point.

D

As an indicator of the ones that have issues probably aren't totally solidified yet and.

E

D

That, okay, um so I'm happy to to start moving this forward like creating a repository in chaos and start just kind of slowly manually porting this stuff over. I don't know what people's thoughts are on this.

F

Matt, would these be things that we would release like officially once we've kind of vetted and described and defined them as we do the metrics.

D

I think so with full attribution to what the starting point was, of course, um but yeah I mean I would. I would love to make this available. I'm not.

E

Quite sure how.

D

Because it's not a metric, you know and like open demographics or I don't know, we point to the open demographics in a lot of our metrics. So maybe it's just a kind of a cross-reference thing for us. I don't know if people have thoughts.

D

Hey org, you were going to say something too.

A

Oh, I was thinking about opening a repository and think of a name. I don't know if you want to name it open demographics and infringe on the work.

E

A

Nikki had done, or if you want to name ours as demographic questions very neutral. Okay, just to you know, respect the work that has been done under the brand open demographics, okay,.

A

What'd, you call it.

D

Demographic questions.

A

D

Does anybody else have any advice for me as I'm doing this, I'm really trying to be sensitive to the work that nikki has done, but I also want to make sure that this work continues to to move forward. So I'm trying to balance these two things- and I certainly don't want to make anybody upset.

G

Maybe this already came up, but has has anyone reached out to nikki or is she interested.

D

G

To house this work.

D

We've tried a few times in a variety of different ways, without much success, meaning no success.

A

Yeah I reached out on github I reached out on twitter. I think I emailed nikki, I have not heard back and I know others have tried as well.

B

And it sounds like a matter of attribution, then right.

D

Do you know her justin.

G

No, no, I was just I just was thinking about. What's the most sensitive way to do it, and I just feel like the best way is you know it's kind of the work up stream when you can but um given. If, if we've reached out and no, I wasn't sure if we had a con, if anyone here knew her or was familiar with her, but maybe a forking option would make sense. If, if there's no response upstream, um I don't know.

G

I guess that this to me feels like one of those like unusual cases where, like I would actually consider forking, even if it's not really great, um but I think in order to in order to not fork you you have to have an upstream to work with, and I'm not sure if we have an upstream.

A

No, so the work in the repository has stalled. There are pull requests open, even small improvements that have not been accepted in more than two years or even received a comment and the same with with issues there's work or comments that have not been addressed in a long time. So I don't think there is an upstream at this point that we can work with. Maybe.

G

Yeah, maybe an idea that we could do is just open an issue with intent, announce intent to fork or to split off just so that way we put it's a.

D

G

We put it in the open and maybe time box it to a month and as long as we say that in a month we'll we'll move forward with the decision. Please let us know if you're interested in working with us that way, at least at least it won't come as a shock once we if we do decide to fork, it won't be a surprise. Hopefully.

A

So it will not come as a surprise. I opened a ticket in december saying that we are talking about this um in the ksd I working group and asking whether we can contribute to the project.

A

And so on, but again no response. So yes, I like the idea of opening a new issue, saying: okay, we are ready to move on.

D

I like that idea too, um I saw some nodding. Heads looks like that seems to be. I.

H

Think that's the appropriate way of doing it, and just I would also join. I would still I would still reach out to her on twitter, but I would link to the fact that we put that in there. Okay we're really working on this okay, because the problem is just so many times people put in bad email.

H

I just forget how, because anybody can farm them, so um I would definitely hit her up on twitter and say: hey here, here's the link to it and then let her know um that way too, because she does seem to check twitter at least monthly. While I have an earthly idea about her github, so I'm all of us it's more than data. It's life.

A

Okay was a good contribution amy, it's.

D

A

Data, it's life.

D

That was very timely.

D

Okay, so um maybe the recommendation is, I can open up an issue and then gayorg, maybe ping her again on twitter kind of all at once, um and then yeah.

H

And if anyone does- and if you don't want to do that, I can also do it too, because I'm always pinging people on twitter too. So.

D

I

And also one thing: don't forget: I mean if she's taking pr's they're forking anyways, that's a proper way to do a fork.

I

So even if we want to start working on it, while we're waiting to hear from her a fork is appropriate, so we fork we work on it and if she says oh people are interested, I wanted. I want to continue working on it. Then we just pr in back in fork, doesn't necessarily have to be permanent.

B

Cool okay sounds like we still got a lot of discussion to make on this, and that issue will buy us some time uh on on getting ready for it.

D

Yep and then um to amy's point I mean we can fork.

E

D

And if the response is actually like, nikki would like to keep it where it's at then we can just.

D

Put in a pr to merge any work that we might do between now and then back into the repo totally cool, um okay.

D

D

When I get that done,.

D

I'll ping you salona on reaching out to her, would that be okay, okay,.

B

Okay, all right, um if nobody has anything else to put in here, I'm gonna go ahead and move this on along to burnout metrics. um So this is something that ruth had proposed. um How do we want to move forward with these burnout metrics or this this metric related to.

B

B

Looks like we have a document for that. So um does someone matt? Do you want to go ahead and screen share that yep sure hold on.

B

Oh, it is uh access locked right now: okay,.

D

B

D

D

D

All righty, it should be fixed now.

B

Does that work it appears to be fixed, yeah. Okay, see it here is project burnout on the metric.

D

D

Anyway, uh so ruth and I had from the discussion from last week, had kind of captured some of the ideas that were put in the chat and just talked about and started building out, a document.

D

So if people could give a.

D

Quick look at this document, whether on my screen, I'll hold it steady or in the link, and it's obviously not done.

B

Do you want to write on this today.

D

B

D

Yeah, even just even five or ten minutes would be awesome.

B

Okay, let's take do you want me to start a timer for 10 minutes.

D

B

I would appreciate that thanks, yeah um started now, so let's go ahead and ride on.

B

F

How would we um describe the objectives? I'm not sure what that means.

D

It's the objective of the metric, so this metric is intended to.

D

Help maintainers identify when burnout is occurring. The this metric is intended to help contributors manage burnout.

A

D

B

Just wanted to note, we got about half of our time five minutes left to work on the document for today. Well, you can still work on it. Afterward just.

D

If anybody's looking for something to edit, you can take a look at the.

I

B

All right um that has, we have put a lot of text in here already. This is great, um but we are out of time. For now we got to get to the um github issues at this point, um so the link uh it looks like we have no link yet, but can someone place a link here, I'll work on it for dna issues.

D

Yeah and on this document, let me just real quickly say: thanks for all the the input, that's totally awesome um ruth and I can work on this for the next week, like kind of looking to, I don't know, fix typos yeah.

E

Thanks everyone.

D

E

Issues are so many.

D

So ruth- and I will kind of I don't know- just work on this and bring it to the group next week. If that works.

G

Awesome. Thank you.

B

It's amazing what a community can accomplish when we get everybody together in one place. So, uh let's see, we've got um a link pasted here for the issue page for diversity. Inclusion. um Do we want to go through some of these issues, starting with the beginning at the bottom and work? Our way up is that how we want to do it yeah? If we can.

B

Okay, um let me uh should I share my screen, or does someone else want to share the screen.

D

I can just give me a second.

B

B

Looks like this first, one we have here is uh has resulted in a merged pull request. Do you want to provide some context on that.

A

On which issue.

B

uh Issue: number 34, sorry.

A

Discussion on adding extra sections to the demographics.

A

A

I created the merch request, so it's already done. It's already merged.

B

Okay, should we check in to see if this one is closable for now.

A

Yeah we can close it.

B

B

B

Looks like we've jumped all the way from 34 to 74 after.

D

That so, I think a lot of the.

D

People's thoughts are um we kind of had this discussion in um the community call. Yesterday.

D

So, with respect to metric ideas, so we have the spreadsheet the tracks how metrics are being worked on by different working groups.

D

D

Example: here's the metric spreadsheet.

D

um And these are the metrics that are moving forward as being worked on by the different working groups. You can see down here at the bottom.

D

So, for example, here's project burnout. This is one that we're now working on probably need to return to say, documentation, accessibility and deliverability, great discoverability.

D

And gary and I were talking yesterday, we used to have a repo that just captured metric ideas and it was a bad repo.

D

E

Just it just got.

D

Completely it just wasn't very good at all, so I guess the question that I would have is do what do we want to do with metric ideas? Do we just keep them as issues? Should we close them, because we can always search closed issues for metric ideas.

B

We could create a form of some sort uh that we accept metric ideas. I don't know that's I I I, after the badging program and working with the forums there, I've kind of gravitated towards using forms for input rather than issues, because issues can stay open for a long time yeah and not be resolved, especially with something like a metric idea.

D

I totally agree.

G

Do we have a forum for chaos, stuff.

A

He used to have a discord forum, but no one used it so it got disabled.

B

A

Want to bring a whole new platform.

B

Into this, but.

G

I mean I know this is one of the things that's I appreciate about. The dna mailing list is that it's separate from the other groups like the main mailing list. The main chaos list is sometimes really hard to follow, because there's just so much volume on it.

G

I like the idea of a forum because it lets you collect more specific feedback like it's easier to attract folks who say they just want to talk about these things. It's a little easier to pull people into those conversations and on a mailing list.

A

G

But I don't, I know, that's also maybe out of scope. I don't want to just just something that I I can definitely relate with that.

J

um I had a quick question: um sorry, did we have a discord forum or a discourse or um like? Was it the web platform or was it the chat platform.

A

J

Yeah, okay, yeah yeah- that makes more sense.

D

So uh did this solve this issue.

B

If I remember correctly, we eventually wanted to re return to the discourse idea once we had more people involved. If that might be a false memory, I'm not sure, but that's how I remember it.

B

A

I I agree we. I also remember that we wanted to revisit this in the future as the project grows and matures to see if there's a need for it last time. The reason we we set it up and then there was a big push back because everyone said oh, but we would be moving away from the mailing list, and so I very well remember that, but maybe maybe now is a good time to revisit that.

A

um Having a forum, I think, would be great to collect um input like metrics ideas, because you can search and the search will go across all working groups and we can organize the forum by working groups by programs by efforts and it's all in one place, and then we can use the issues on the repository for specific action items that need to be addressed in the repositories.

G

And to build on that too, one of the so I also am an admin of like three different discourse forums, and one thing I've learned is that the default settings that that the discourse ships with aren't always great for engagement, but there's kind of a recipe, a formula of of building a forum. So you actually get more engagement like you, can make certain topics like say you want a dni working group.

G

People can, by default, be subscribed to the first post, the first new thread without getting all the replies which is like that is so useful to me, because then, if I do reply, I'll get I'll, keep getting emails, I'll keep getting content, but I'll at least see the first thread. And if I want to engage it's, I can either go to the web.

G

Like that's just one thing I really like, and I think, when you kind of think about those things when you're setting up a form, it does make it easier to actually get engagement, because it's just the notification really tricky on discourse. I I've found as an admin.

H

D

Go ahead. Sorry.

F

I I was just gonna say um so when I, when I worked at github, I remember they used to have this thing called discussions and I just checked their public road map and they are now. Finally, after years um it looks like they're going to start implementing it in october or uh or november in a beta.

F

So um that might be something that we just wait and see if that's something, because that will be integrated with the github platform, and it is like a forum, if I recall correctly, I'm sure they haven't changed it a ton, but um so that just might be another option. Just gonna throw that out. There.

B

Well, that sounds ideal.

D

So could ask a question for people I'm not super familiar with like forums and the management of them, so would would that enable us to basically take any metric in here. That's marked metric idea. I know it doesn't just move but like essentially bring them into the forum and we could essentially archive them and search on them. Later I mean what.

I

D

How does this work, I'm not super sure so like if we had say 70, I don't know whatever 278 right or.

D

An event metric 240. like how do we move it? How would we move it out of here and into a forum so that we can capture ideas which is cool but reduce the amount of noise? That's going on in the issues? How would that work.

B

Well, there's not a lot of them. I could do it manually if you'd like me to. I think this is a good thing to bring up in the community. Call, though, and ask the whole group.

D

A

D

A

If it's about the technical aspect of how we move it copy paste as matt snell said, if your question is about what would the new engagement model look like, then I would structure the forum to have different tags like we have labels here and have a metric idea tag, and when someone says oh, I would really like to measure this.

A

Then we tag it and accordingly you can filter topics and threats by this, and then we can have also groups in the forum that are for the different working groups, where we can organize the threads and topics um which I think would make sense. And then we can have other things in the forum as well that we're currently discussing on the mailing list, like the community.

A

F

I think personally, I like that idea a lot and I think it it kind of would just be a one extra step in our flow um almost like when you go to submit a feature request at software or you know somewhere that you you do a search first to see if somebody's already requested that feature or requested in our case that metric or brought up that metric as an idea.

F

So it would be, I think, um pretty easy to to just kind of um ask that people just search before they drop in an idea just search to see if it's something that we've already talked about, or that has already been brought up in the past. And if it has then add your comments here or you know something like that. So I think it's more of like a workflow thing too. Just asking people to do that. One extra step before they submit the idea.

D

This all makes sense, thank you, and so the forum would capture these ideas, but not really keep them so prominent as they are here. So we wouldn't lose the things that people are thinking about, but it also wouldn't be kind of elevated to the issue level.

D

F

Yeah and then I think once we get to that in my opinion, once we get to the point of where we're actually working on that metric, then we maybe have an issue for it where you know, people sure discuss.

I

F

Details but the high level stuff you're right. I don't think it needs to be in an issue.

D

Okay- and I like that too, because I think listening to everybody talk, though, when we had the metrics idea as a repo, that's super high level right. That's that's really.

E

D

And center- and I think that's where it kind of fell apart- we were trying to make it bigger than it was or that it should have been so this doesn't lose the ideas from people, but it also doesn't create mess by by trying to maintain a repo of all of these really very fluid ideas that people have.

D

Okay, sorry for the divergence here.

B

There's a lot of discussion going on in the chat which is great to see.

B

Yeah, it looks like we got a lot of talk about this. um I think this is a great thing to either pilot or just suggest outright to the entire group, because it'd be kind of weird. If dni was the only one doing this uh and we're the we're the people representing that right now, um so do we want some? Do we want someone? We can just pick someone or someone volunteers to um talk about this in the community. Call next.

F

F

B

Okay sounds great.

F

I know matt was about ready to volunteer me anyway. So now it looks like I had control over the situation.

D

I just realized. I, if I point it doesn't do anything.

B

All right that looks like that's it for the meeting today, we're almost to our time anyway. uh Do we have? Oh, it says ruth said she has a question after this: um can you go ahead with that.

E

Okay, so my question is: are we waiting till after the launch to um publicize on twitter channel about diane? I imagine.

B

Oh yeah, we didn't have a dni badging item. Did we today it's um kind of strange because we normally have that in this meeting, but um our pilot testing is right now we're looking at a um a september 14th release, um but we have to get a lot done before then so, we'll keep you updated. uh Do you have any specific questions about it right now,.

E

Like um are we going to wait till the launch to publicize on twitter channel on chaos like we.

B

Have a project.

E

Ongoing or a project we're about to launch so I'll be waiting till after the launch. Then we tell everyone about it or.

B

It's a good question: um what do you guys.

D

Think this is a good question and I'm being silent because I'm thinking about it.

G

Is there a way for people to leave feedback if we post it out there.

B

That might be a good thing to put into the chaos website, along with the other forms. To be honest,.

E

So just something like watch out for the new stuff we have coming.

B

E

Then also just doing that will um engage yet the projects are not launched by to engage people to come check it out. Then, for those still planning on their events, they can check out the metrics and you know, put the events in order, so they get the badge. So it's just.

B

Yeah, that's a good idea, because we don't want to launch dry for sure. um We could do a kind of a reveal of sorts, though everybody already knows about it. That's affiliated with chaos, but.

D

B

I really like that idea.

D

um It might also enable us one of the things that we have to do is identify reviewers people who are willing to participate, and I mean the the hinting that this is coming could what would people think about, including like and if you're interested in participating?

D

Let us know kind of thing.

B

And the call for reviewers could come through that too yeah.

E

Yeah, so um for the reviewers aspect, I know um matt talked about um like a criteria. I I I cannot actually remember, but I kind of have like some friends who love country, but there are new contributors. Just this should be their first time. So I wanted to know before I bring them in yeah.

B

Yeah, absolutely um we will have a process for kind of like applying for review setup uh by the time of launch and definitely probably before in the next couple days. But if you could send them and send me an email and include them as well and we can go ahead and get started with talking about that.

E

All right sure thank.

B

B

That's always really good input on badging. um You got you. The community here has been really helpful in providing insight on what we can improve on. We've made a lot of.

B

B

Well, um that looks like the last item for this. um We'll. Definitely let you guys know if you want to retweet this tweet that we send out, um and I think that's it for this meeting then um thank you for coming by.

A

Thanks, thank you bye. Thank you.

E

A

E