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From YouTube: CHAOSS.Value.April.9.2020
Description
CHAOSS.Value.April.9.2020
B
B
C
E
D
E
B
So
one
of
the
things
we
talked
about
last
time
was
that
we
wanted
to
talk
to
Lawrence
aged
and
thank
you
Lawrence
for
joining
us
and
I.
Remember
correctly,
the
reason
why
was
because
we
were
talking
about
the
survey
that
we
know
was
doing
in
some
other
ideas
around
connecting
the
work
that
we
are
doing
more
with
the
work
that
the
to
do
group
is
doing
and
maybe
getting
some
insights
to
what
metrics
are
used
in
budgeting
decisions
and
there's
a
whole
can
of
worms
to
unpack.
B
C
I
did
oh
good
I
just
wanted
to
continue
with
the
momentum
we
started
with
last
feeding
on
looking
into
how
we
evaluate
the
pre-existing
metrics
in
the
context
of
the
new
mission.
A
couple
of
contributors
have
mentioned
the
importance
of
focused
groups
as
a
methodology
to
understanding
where
it's
you,
where
to
hone
in
how
to
clarify
metrics.
So
I
wrote
a
proposal
this
week
I
wanted
to
touch
base
on,
and
then
we
can
continue
on
the
further
metric
review.
There's
a
poor
investor
s
CMS
to
come.
C
Then
there's
a
couple
of
other
issues:
I've
opened
up
and
I'm,
and
just
a
note
on,
like
I'm
gonna,
make
a
call
for
people
in
dev,
rel
and
supposed
to
participate
in.
This
group
got
like
a
draft
of
an
article
and
some
outreach
through
the
dev
rel
collective
started.
Some
hoping
I
would
want
to
touch
base
with
all
of
you
first
and
then
start
to
kick
that
off
to
try
to
pull
in
some
more
participants,
but
we
can
get
to
that.
Let's
start
with
this
awesome
group
review.
C
B
I
would
suggest
having
two
introductions
here.
One
is
Lawrence
introduced
himself
and
the
work
he's
doing
and
then
he
not
introduces
the
work
that
he
is
doing
because
I
think
those
are
the
two
main
connection
points
and
then
I
think
everything
else
will
flow
from
there.
So
Lawrence
a
few
would
like
to
sure
so.
I
am.
F
Unmuted
so
so
I've
known
about
you
guys
since
the
beginning,
I
attended
a
couple
of
their
first
meetings
about
a
year
and
a
half
ago,
and
then
I
was
overwhelmed
with
everyone
who
had
more
stakes
in
the
gate,
more
stakes
in
the
game.
Basically,
I
wasn't
getting
paid
to
go
to
the
meetings,
didn't
have
a
budget,
so
I
didn't
I
start
stopped
coming,
but
basically
I
worked
on
two
surveys.
Last
year
and
I
plan
to
work
up
and
I
have
one
survey
in
the
queue
and
another
survey.
F
I
am
waiting
for
financing
on
which
I'm
probably
going
to
get
so
so,
generally
speaking,
there's
we're
doing
working
out
to
do
group
survey.
So
the
group's
open-source
program
office
group
and
that
survey
has
focused
on
why
people
are
starving,
open
source
programs,
the
value
they're
getting,
and
then
we
tacked
on
about
ten
to
twelve
other
questions
about
developer
velocity,
different
licensing
questions.
Things
are
related
to
open
source,
but
not
directly
related
to
the
performance
of
open
source
programs.
So
that's
one
where
we'll
be
doing
a
third
year
of
the
survey.
F
The
interesting
thing
there
is
that,
in
addition
to
the
open
source
program,
new
group
we're
also
getting
financing
from
vmware
and
basically
all
vmware
wants
is
that's
asked
one
question
about
people
who
are
the
value
people
ascribe
to
different
companies
as
open
source
citizens?
So
in
other
words,
is
vmware
a
good
open
sources
and
yes
like
and
then
rain
a.
F
Basically,
I
mean
basically
the
gist
of
it
is.
Is
that
and
then
we
basically
have
a
large
list
of
companies.
So
basically
it's
people
take
it
seriously.
So
president,
we
pour
it
on
people.
Vmware
had
bad
data,
so
we
reported
on
that
and
there
and
they
said
okay,
we
hope
to
do
better.
We
have
a
program
in
place
to
do
better.
So
so
that's
that
the
other
what
project
I
worked
on
was
with
the
with
tide
lift,
and
we
looked
at
a
lot
of
different
metrics
in
terms
of
why
people
are
picking
certain
projects.
F
What
are
the
incentives
for
people
to
do
to
work
on
open
source?
How
many
hours
are
they
spending
and
my
hours?
Are
they
spending
where
they're
getting
paid?
What's
the
price
point
that
they
would
where
they
would
actually
add
more
time?
Things
like
that
and
that's
the
question
that
I
play:
that's
that
type
of
survey
were
playing
to
do
something
again
with
that's,
where
I'm
trying
to
get
to
get
the
financing
finalized
and
but
this
year
will
be
less
last
year's
part,
some
who
was
trying
to
help
them
without
their
positioning.
F
F
Open
source
projects
as
being
current
as
long
as
someone's
made
a
a
contribution
within
the
last
three
months
you
made.
If
it's
an
active
in
the
last
three
months,
then
there,
though
there
people
are
willing
to
use
the
project
after
that
they
become
very
skeptical.
That's
the
tipping
point.
They
have.
F
Yeah
and
the
and
then
lastly
things
you
know,
is
that
I
don't
know
if
anyone's
been
talking
to
the
people
from
Harvard.
You
know:
Harvard
didn't
harbor,
Linux
Foundation
did
a
survey
that
has
announced
to
study
a
few
months
ago,
but
so
basically,
Harvard
was
supposed
to
launch
a
survey
in
March.
They
haven't
done
it,
but
they
were
supposed
to
be
launching
a
survey
very
detailed
survey
about
open
source
development
and
just
that
is
in
it,
but
they
haven't
shared
the
questions
with
me.
F
I
asked
I
offered
up
to
review
them
beforehand
and
it's
a
little
touchy
because
Linux
Foundation
rejected
my
proposal
here
and
have
to
do
that
that
work
so
I,
don't
I'm
not
trying
to
fight
with
them
too
much,
but
basically
that's
supposed
to
be
the
the
next
step
from
the
it
was
a
2017
survey
that
get
the
github
did.
They
were
looking
at
that
and
looking
at
all
the
black
duck
surveys
and
they
were
trying
to
create
a
new
serve
and
you'll
service
that
was
commuter
benchmark.
A
All
these
different
surveys
you
have
been
doing
so
what
I
did
was
more
focused
too
many
focused.
The
target
was
CIOs
or
CEOs,
who
ever
like
decision
powers,
the
companies
who
are
investing
in
open-source.
So
what
we
did
is
we
pick
the
companies
which
are
sponsoring
Linux
Foundation.
We
picked
a
companies,
find
out
the
details
of
the
CEOs
and
CIOs
and
approach
them
to
get
their
are
like
how
they
value
open
source.
A
What
is
the
value
they
drive
like,
whether
in
terms
of
financial
or
in
terms
of
non-financial
they
for
the
product
of
an
offense
or
generating
revenue
or
finding
the
employees?
So
it
was
very
specific
to
the
CIO.
The
CEOs
were
a
decision
maker
and
wanted
to
know
how
they
value
the
open
source,
our
what
value
they
try
from
the
open
source.
A
A
Can
you
see
the
survey
we
can?
Yes,
sir
okay?
So
first
was
on
the
like,
having
the
consent
to
participate,
and
second
is
more
on
the
gen,
like
just
demographic
rule
and
use
of
open
source
in
their
product
or
services
like
that
was
the
main
criteria.
Whether
or
the
company
is
using
the
open
source
at
all.
A
Then
we
all
send
the
size
of
company.
There
participate.
How
many
employees
I
have
to
gauge
the
size
of
the
company
and
their
reach
like
whether
its
moral
on
the
local
basis
on
the
regional
or
national
or
international
level,
and
how
long
this
company
is
being
in
the
business?
And
when
did
the
company
start
using
open
source
in
the
product
and
services?
A
Then
we
have
who
are
the
primary
customer
of
the
open
source
related
products?
Are
these
individual
small
companies
large
corporations
just
to
get
an
idea
about
their
target
customers,
and
then
we
depth
into
the
more
specific
like
investment?
How
does
your
company
invest
any,
and
does
your
company
like
invest
any
resources,
financial
or
non-financial
in
the
development
support
our
promotion
of
open
source?
And
then
what
is
your
company's
reason
for
investing?
So
we
wanted
to
know
like
why
they
are
investing.
A
You
know
pants,
or
are
they
just
ready
for
the
product,
development
or
low
cost
of
investment
or
regulatory
requirement
or
marketing
promotion,
or
just
recruiting
various
reasons?
And
then
how
does
company
invest
in
open
source?
What
are
the
different
ways?
They
are
investing.
It's
just
dedicating
employees
just
funding
our
open
source
project
or
starting
a
new
open
source
software
and
developing
that
community
so
like
finding
out
the
bays
in
which
those
companies
are
investing
in
open
source,
just
providing
largest
city.
A
Even
some
companies
were
just
providing
the
web
hosting
services
to
the
open
source
projects
so
like
in
different
ways.
Companies
are
supporting
open
source,
so
try
I
was
trying
to
gauge
what
are
the
different
ways.
These
companies
are
investing
and
then
how
does
Company?
How
does
organization
dedicating
ploys
are
to
it?
Just
dedicating
full
time
part
time
at
all
on
the
earth
how
these
companies
were?
So
these
are
like
link
questions.
So
if
this
lecture
they
are
dedicating
employees,
then
they
will
see
this
question.
A
Okay,
like
oh,
yes,
and
that
we
were
trying
to
gauge
how
they
are
dedicating
employees
and
similarly,
we
have.
How
does
company
calculate
the
cost
of
investment
and
open
source?
So
if
they
are
investing
employees
or
if
they
are
investing
any
resources?
How
they're
calculating
and
most
of
the
design
from
the
15
response
I
got
is
most
of
them
was
like
never
calculated
the
cost
of
investment
and
open
source,
one
or
two
say
it
like.
Okay,
we
are
dedicating
in
price.
A
We
are
just
calculating
their
salary
as
a
investment
and
open
source
cost
of
investment,
but
majority
of
them
have
never
calculated.
So
then,
what
is
the
percentage
of
total
investment
and
business
a
2d
related
open
source
product?
So
it's
not
just
a
percentage
measure.
It
was
more
of
a
mix
then
for
the
development
of
product
or
services,
approximately
how
many
open
source
project
does
your
company
engage
with?
A
Now
you
are
linking
each
with
one
project,
one
two:
five
there's
a
range
of
it,
mostly
within
the
range
of
6
to
10
projects
for
and
then
for
the
development
of
product
or
services,
approximately
how
many
open
source
communities
does
your
company
maintain?
So
mostly
what
in
the
range
of
1
to
5,
so
2
or
3
communities
were
mostly
and
then
we
are
like
how?
How
does
your
company
benefit
from
investing
in
open
source,
its
reduced
cost
generation
of
new
ideas,
improved
distribution,
usage
of
software
or
improved
company
image,
just
because
of
the
mouth?
A
Many
companies
are
also
investing
because
of
the
marketing
like.
Ok,
we
are
have
a
branding
of
image
and
things
like
this.
Then
we
focus
on
the
cost
like
how
does
your
company
calculate
cost
using
the
open
source
estimating
the
salary
cost
company
comparing
in-house
development
versus
open
source
development
comparing
product
particular
proprietary
software
versus
open
source
development
cost?
So
these
are
the
different
options
and
then
we
had
an
open-ended
option
like
if
you're
doing
something
else.
A
What
are
the
other
areas
looking,
then
we
looked
at
okay,
how
you
are
generating
revenue
either
by
directly
selling
OpenSocial
related
products
during
the
installation.
Support
are
providing
subscription
or
cloud-based
services
and
many
an
open-ended
or
answer
also,
and
then
we
had
what
are
the
major
source
of
revenue
for
the
company
with
respect
to
investment
in
open
source,
either
sales
of
services
around
open
source,
sale
of
proprietary
set
of
hardware
around
open
source
software
and
what
percentage
of
total
business
revenues
generated
through
open
source
software?
A
A
So
and
one
question
was
on
the
risk:
do
you
face
any
risk
factors
like
risk
of
licensing
loss
who
risk
of
unpublish
security
when
the
bilities,
because
of
using
open
source
software
risk
of
slow
or
loss
of
their
support
and
accidental
release?
And
then
we
asked
like
in
the
end
we
ask
open-ended
question:
do
you
use
any
metrics
to
measure
the
value
gained
from
open
source?
If,
yes,
then
we
ask
them?
Okay
mentioned
top
three
metrics
you
use
and
then
any
other
feedback
you
provide,
but
that
was
only
a
detailed
survey.
We
send
out.
F
We
cannot
hear
you
I
think
you're.
My
suggestion
is
to
go
through
everything
and
figure
out
which
questions
what
you
really
liked
and
which
ones
you
want
to
follow
up
on,
and
it
might
be
better
and
do
you
get
the
people's
email
addresses?
Yes,
what
you
could
do
is
basically
pre
populate
the
data
from
this
into
a
new
survey
and
just
send
email
to
people
saying
hey.
F
Could
you
check
you
give
us
ask
these
change
the
way
to
look
at
it
or
basically
but
main
thing
anything
is
to
for
you
to
figure
out
which
questions
are
best
and
it
might
be
better
to
just
start
over
again
and
instead
of
trying
to
get
the
and
the
other.
The
other
issue
is
maybe
you're
going
too
high
up
in
the
food
chain.
Yes,
yeah
I,
don't
have
any
time
yeah
you're,
never
gonna,
stop
CSCO
is
to
do
a
survey.
E
My
comment
is
in
some
of
those
where
you're
asking
for
ranges
giving
them
a
slider
might
make
it
easier
to
respond
and
having
them
search.
Their
checkboxes
I
was
just
trying
to
think
at
the
sea
level.
What
is
the
way
it
could
be
shortened
or
made
to
look
like
it's
a
faster
survey
to
repeat
when
I
get
assertive,
with
a
lot
of
selections
on
the
page,
I
just
kind
of
give
up
really
fast.
A
C
C
Let
me
can
I
make
a
few
comments
here.
Yes,
so
Lawrence
one
of
your
first
questions,
this.
This
project
is
ultimately
funded
by
the
Alfred
Sloan
Foundation,
as
kind
of
supporting
the
chaos
project
as
for
the
last
three
years,
so
one
of
the
things
that
we're
doing
with
this
survey
is
trying
to
respond
to
one
of
the
working
groups
that
came
out
of
chaos,
which
was
the
value
working
group
and
the
whole
determination
of
value
is
I'm.
C
Sure
you're
aware,
is
it's
kind
of
like
a
Holy
Grail,
it's
really
hard
to
to
get
at,
particularly
in
this
open
source
space.
So
we've
been
asking
questions
around
value
for
a
long
time
and,
as
Vinod
pointed
out
a
lot
of
the
answers,
are
we
don't
calculate
ROI?
We
invest
in
open
source
because
it
seems
like
a
good
idea.
It
helps
us
kind
of
get
our
developers
out
there.
It
helps
us
in
the
development
of
our
product,
but
we
don't
calculate
it.
C
C
The
survey
or
parts
of
the
survey,
but
also
managing
to
be
attentive
to
not
just
you
know,
casting
it
out
on,
say,
Twitter,
where
anybody
can
respond
and
then
the
results
become
kind
of
less
valuable
right.
So
we're
always
trying
to
balance,
as
you
know,
with
surveys,
I
think
just
broadcasting
the
survey
that
anybody
can
take
it
versus
narrow
populations
that
may
not
have
the
time.
So
that's
it's
a
trick
right.
It's
a
balancing
act,
you're,
muted,
Lawrence,
I,.
F
F
What
I
found
is
that
if
you
have
a
good
screening
question
that
takes
care
of
most
of
it,
the
problem
and
and
what
I
do
is
I
tag.
The
surveys
so
I
know
what
source
he
came
from
so,
for
example,
in
different
world.
If
I
was
asking
about
adoption
of
different
products,
I
usually
don't
have
a
vendor
promote
it.
But
let's
say
if
I
did
have
a
vendor
promote,
let's
set
it
to
their
list.
F
F
Controls
for
that
system
system
generally
speaking,
what's
common,
is
you
get
stuff?
We
do
also
do
is
get
vendor
nominations
so,
for
example,
if
we
had
a
customer
we'd,
let
the
people
we
serve
a
up
to
ten
of
their
customers,
but
no
more
so,
basically,
a
lot
of
yeah
good
data
about
everyone
else.
Also,
besides
that,
what
they're
talking
about
so
generally
speaking,
is
you
swot
get
a
wide
distribution,
get
in
a
bunch
of
newsletters
to
a
lot
of
people
the
for
example.
F
F
You
can
combine
data
from
another
source
if
you
want
or
give
incentives
of
some
sort,
but
we
did
we
have
much.
So
we
did
a
random
drawing
of
a
thousand
dollar
gift
card,
so
that
I
would
have
done
for
four
of
250,
for
example,
more,
like
just
I
mean,
but
yet
so
the
random
drawing
that's
good.
The
issue
is
one
of
that
is
that
everyone
else
doesn't
know
they
get
doesn't
know
they
actually
get
it,
but.
F
F
You
just
have
to
get
in
front
of
a
large.
You
have
to
get
in
front
of
30,000
people
if
you
don't
get
in
probably
30,000
people,
you're,
not
gonna,
get
a
large
response,
because
it's
only
gonna
be
about,
let's
say
2/3
percent
of
people
that
see
it
might
click
on
it
and
add
that
it's
only
the
25
percent
of
them
that
complete
the
survey,
something
about
that
way.
F
I've
had
really
high
response
rates
on
another
service,
but
it's,
but
it's
based
off
of
your
looking
for
something
specific,
so
that
people
who
looks
like
doing
open
source
program
offices,
people
or
assume
that
I
look.
People
are
really
interested
in
that
so
they're
gonna
have
a
reason
to
do
the
survey
saying
that
you
do
asking
about
open
source.
That's
a
very
general
topic.
There's
not
a
lot
of
incentive.
People
don't
aren't
very
interested
in
that
seems
so
big
just
I
was
doing
two
things.
F
F
F
F
And
but
what
I
also
did
was
I
was
looking
at
things
in
terms
of
what
we're
least
your
quantifying
your
program
offices
success.
What
benefits
are
you
getting
and
then
it
was
doing
cross
tabs
of
that
versus
how
far
along
that?
Are
they
in
with
open
source?
How
many
open
source
program
projects
are
they
maintaining?
F
How
are
you
collaborating
with
other
peers?
Are
you
in
it,
but
TAS
a
bunch
of
questions
there
that
are
somewhat
relevant,
I'm
gonna
show
you
another
duck
and
that's
sure
something
else
here.
This
is
technically
not
public
I'm
a
lot
of
share,
but
don't
don't
it's
not
it'll
be
recorded.
If
we
basically.
B
F
And
all
I
was
gonna
say
was
that
and
here's
a
link
to
the
you
get
the
full
report
at
that
link
and
that's
all
it's
almost
everything's
publicly
available.
It's
basically
the
same
thing.
It
was
just
the
one
part
and
that's
where
we're
gonna
be
looking
for
think
they
would
be
think
they
would
be
glad
to
see
things
work
together.
F
Guess
my
main
question
is
what
types
for
this
they're
not
and
everything
else
is
what
metrics
are
important,
that
you
can't
collect?
They
need
to
collect,
be
a
survey
or
focus
group
or
whatever.
It
is
that's
the
main
question
to
have,
because
you
rather
have
real
quad
data,
a
real
based
off
of
activities
rather
than
just
surveys,
but
have
you
thought
about
that
question.
C
F
Two
things
is,
one
is
so
I've
looked
at
how
you
determined
value
of
funding,
open
source
communities
and
that's
different
than
funding,
actual
development
and
maintenance
and
use
of
open
source.
So
you
have
to
divide.
Look
at
those
super
separate
things,
so
the
funding
of
open
source
communities
has
a
lot
to
do
with
hiring
and
recruiting
and
maintaining
developers.
So
that's
how
they're
measuring
value.
F
So
and
then
in
terms
of
everything,
I
was
showing
you
the
like
we're
asked.
We
asked
questions
open-source,
sir
program
office.
How
are
you
measuring
the
success
and
that's
what?
Basically,
what
metrics
are
you
using
to
measure
success
for
the
program
offices?
Some
of
them
are
operational,
but
some
of
them
have
to
do
with
license
compliance,
which
is
a
big
cost
center.
F
How
do
you
measure
innovation?
I?
Think
that's
ridiculous
to
try
to
measure
innovation,
but
people
are
going
to
tell
you
that
repeatedly
how's,
it
related
to
revenue
your
generation
is
people
have
people
were
measuring
it
and
again
that's
impossible
to
measure,
and
you
could
you'll
ask
questions
you
get
answers,
but
there
won't
be
good
answers.
So,
basically,
it's.
How
can
you
the
business
leaders,
are
measuring
value
certain
ways
the
developers
are
measuring
value
certain
ways
and
you
want
to
be
able
to
capture
both
metrics
but
and
I
have
to
go
back.
F
I
have
a
list
of
20
KPI
software
engineering
managers
who
use
so?
Are
you
measuring
value
that
way
in
terms
of
what
the
software
engineering
managers
are?
Are
you
that's
very
common
approach
that
people
where
I
see
people
try
to
justify
certain
software
use
in
that
there
could
be
lower,
there's
gonna,
be
higher
quality,
less
defects,
less
vulnerabilities?
Those
are
all
very
much
success.
Metrics
that.
C
So
then,
also
to
Matt
Matt
be.
The
question
you
had
asked
is
why,
oh,
you
know
what:
why
is
this
occurring?
This
discussion
occurring
in
the
this
working
group,
like
what
I
was
making
sure
is
keepin
like
I,
was
connecting
that
in
my
head,
cuz
yeah
I'm
on
the
newer
side
of
contributor.
Does
the
mean
do
you?
Do
you
Matt
be
see
value
in
trying
to
get
this
type
of
information
to
help
in
the
kind
of
metrics?
Like
does
this
help?
In
the
past?
All.
C
This
conversation
is
exceptionally
fascinating
and
informative,
like
just
because
we're
we're
really
kind
of
stress
testing,
like
our
own
comprehension
of
like
we've,
got
a
working
group
around
value.
Do
we
even
know
what
that
means
like
we
do
have
to
have
those
kind
of
honest
conversations
with
ourselves,
I
always
say
like,
maybe
not
because
of
its
validity,
but
because
of
its
effectiveness,
like
I
I
still
tend
to
think
of
like
how
are
people
in
developer,
communities
or
particularly
devrel
organizations,
and
in
Oslo
organisations.
C
How
are
they
communicating
their
business
value
to
some
leadership
and
while
I
am
the
very
first
to
admit
a
lot
of
what
I
have
done
to
do
so
it's
complete
it's
it's
just
like
you
know.
It's
argument.
By
analogy,
like
you
value
page
views
in
this
organization,
and
while
that's
not
our
primary
value
over
here,
I'm
going
to
make
an
analogous
argument
for
like
all
this
open
source
activities,
getting
significant
page
views
and
you
have
a
calculation
of
value
over
there.
Let
me
make
an
argument
that
we
are
equivalently,
valuable
or
relatively
valuable.
I
would.
E
D
C
My
heart
of
hearts
hopes
that
we
can
collect
like
a
standard
library
of
metrics
that
people
have
used
to
successfully
justify
really
effective
community
work
and
I.
Don't
want
that
to
be
limited
to
like
you,
scientific
rigor,
I
would
love
to
drive
that
conversation
towards
more
rigorous
activities
and
be
informed
by
that,
like
I'm,
open
to
all
ways
in
which
people
have
you
know,
justified
their
work
and
and
been
able
to
track
that
you
know
day
over
day
quarter-over-quarter
and
keep
getting
funded
right
on
that
makes
sense.
Yeah.
E
F
F
Yeah
well
in
basically,
are
you
basically
making
updates
to
the
product
all
the
time,
so
one
way
that
people
use
you
look
at
the
developer,
productivity
or
innovation
is
how
often
are
websites
being
updated,
like
the
product
pages
of
the
websites
being
updated
and
that's
quite
a
viable,
but
you
could
have
spiders
and
bats
going
back
and
checking
the
product
pages
for
them
for
changes.
So
that's
a
way
to
measure
innovation.
F
F
E
E
F
F
Quality
of
a
product,
the
revenue
that
it
could
possibly
generate
in
the
cost
savings
that
should
be
a
those
are
the
mean
value,
met,
categories,
I,
think
and
the
in
terms
of
audiences
there's
a
business
executive
audience
in
the
software
engineering
audience
which
had
different
business,
exec
business
executives,
who
also
care
about
risk,
and
things
like
that
and
I
know.
You
have
a
different
category
to
risk
different
working
group
for
risk.
Yeah.
F
F
F
F
How
the
full-time
equivalents
stop
it's
the
people
who
care
about
that
or
people
in
this
software
and
technology
business,
the
people
who
work
at
the
80%
of
companies
that
don't
create
software
products
or
cloud
services,
or
things
like
that
are
not
going
to
have
enough
developers
on
staff
or
they're,
stuck
where
they're
all
what
they're
thinking
about?
Oh
we're,
saving
it
a
person
or
two
or
three
or
four,
and
that's
really
good
in
terms
of
an
odd
I,
think
I
don't
be
still
here.
F
C
F
Like
if
your
Google
and
you
have
a
thousand
developers,
you
care
about
one
thing:
if
you
are
Procter
&
Gamble
and
had
50
developers
spread
out
over
or
hundred
developers,
spread
out
over
30
divisions,
you're,
not
really
thinking
about
what
value
you're
getting
from
open
source
as
much
you're
more
it's!
It's,
not
your
core
business.
Oh.